Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => Character Discussion => Mature => Topic started by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 06:14:04 AM
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(http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af171/dreamcancel/kofxiii/mature.gif)
Notation
;a = Light Punch
;b = Light Kick
;c = Strong Punch
;d = Strong Kick
* = EX version possible
Special Moves
Despair - ;dp + ;a / ;c *
∟ Tsuika ;a / ;c
Metal Massacre - ;qcb + ;b / ;d *
Death Row - ;qcb + ;a / ;c (up to 3 times) *
Ebony Tears - ;qcf ;hcb + ;a / ;c *
Desperation Moves
Nocturnal Lights - ;qcf ;qcf + ;a / ;c *
Heaven's Gate - ;qcb ;hcf + ;b / ;d
Neomax
Awakening Blood - ;qcb ;hcf + ;a ;c
Mature's Wiki entry (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mature_(XIII)).
Console changes:
* Ebony Tears comes out faster. Can hit opponent afterwards
* Weak Metal Massacre is a one hit attack
* EX Deathrow correctly puts crouching opponent into hitback state on a hit unlike arcade version. If the opponent is crouching during 1-4 hits, a fierce Metal Massacre can still combo with a drivecancel.
- EX Despair doesn’t move Mature behind the opponent even if they’re crouching
Producer Yamamoto says: Ebony Tears is a lot easier to use now. Weak Metal Massacre has been changed to a single hit and does less scaling, so it might be useful for fast paced matches.
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Reserved
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Reserved
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from the old thread:
For a simple HD combo that I was trying to do with Mature, I've noticed a lot of notations will say QCB+P(7)x3 or something similar. But I can't seem to HD cancel the move into itself, which I'm sure I can't. I've noticed her QCB+K move looks like the third hit of the rekka, so if I do something like QCB+Px3 HC QCB+K repeat, am I doing it wrong all together and thus ruining my damage output? (I can record something quick if it helps to understand). If I remember correctly, doing that combo from j.C>C>etc into QCB,HCF+K to Neomax only got me slightly over 620 damage.
If anyone has better ideas for HD combos, I'd like to see them, honestly I'm bad at trying to pick up combos from videos (but I'll try nonetheless).
Since I've recently taken a liking to the character, I'd like to know of a good placement for her on my team as well. From my small experience she needs some meter but she also doesn't seem to thrive off of it either (meter helps everyone for sure, duh). The other characters I am using are Joe and King, and maybe I can use her on point, or maybe second?
I don't think she has any "easy" hd combos. If you need to cancel the last rekka into hcb+k then back into qcb+p it will take some time practicing that combo to do it on the fly, the timing is very tight but possible. I wouldn't say it was easy compared to others I've seen but it is not "youtube tool-assisted" hard either.
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King of Fighters XIII - Trial Mode : Mature (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJJa5bIu2nE#ws)
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Mature's my second on my current back-up team.
I think she's pretty good in this game and will continue
to play her.
I'm surprised by the fact I can do Mature's rekkas more easily
than kensou's.
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You shouldn't be, the timing for her Rekkas are slightly more lenient and open, it's also easier to stagger her Rekkas as well.
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I always played Mature in most of the KOF games she appeared. Im in the dojo right now trying to find good bnbs, block strings, etc. in the corner. Right now, I do a mixture of LP Despairs and very few HP Despairs(because of the height it has) in the corner, following with some basic come like st. LP, st. HK, Deathrow( 3-5 depending on bar), Metal Massacre or after Metal Masscare, Nocturnal Rites and ending with Awaking Blood. I don't know if is a bad habit of myself, but I always perfered short to medium combos that still do nice damage without the damaging scale totally effecting. Do you guys know if Mature got any death touch combos that are worth learning? Thanks in advance....
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You shouldn't be, the timing for her Rekkas are slightly more lenient and open, it's also easier to stagger her Rekkas as well.
I guess I can do qcb rekkas better than qcf ones.
Yeah,I'm weird like that. ;)
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I just picked her up and now shes in my main roster now and man I must say she has some very good and scary frame traps..If you dont count your rekkas its easy to get lost in her combos lol
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I found when doing her HD combo 214A x3, HD cancel, 214B is easier by doing:
[214A, 214A, 214A, 21[4]B~A]xN
This will get the 3 rekkas into 214B and will immediately cancel into the rekkas again with having to doing another 214A for the rekkas
After the 214Ax3, you do 214B and hold 4, and hit A since the 214 from 214B carries over to 214A if you hold 4 and then immediately hit A
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I found when doing her HD combo 214A x3, HD cancel, 214B is easier by doing:
[214A, 214A, 214A, 21[4]B~A]xN
This will get the 3 rekkas into 214B and will immediately cancel into the rekkas again with having to doing another 214A for the rekkas
After the 214Ax3, you do 214B and hold 4, and hit A since the 214 from 214B carries over to 214A if you hold 4 and then immediately hit A
I think I see what you're saying here. see this is what wierds me out about this KoF so far... the input reads feel very precise but the windows in which to input - especially button presses - seem very open. I've got a couple examples;
I was in training with Saiki, full meters, I input ;fd ;dn ;df ;fd ;b ;d - mash ;c. the result? His EX flipkick comes out, and then, with NO additional input, his ;dn ;df ;fd ;c comes out as a drive cancel 0_0. a more general example, that drives me NUTS, I see a wiffed DP, and walk in for a punish, starting with a close ;c, with well, ANYBODY. I hit the ;c, THEN start buffering a move, and a throw comes out, even though the ;c input was at or slightly BEFORE the directional input.
I needa see more usages like this Mature combo because it'll really help me use this input leniency to my advantage, rather than keep me fuckin tripping over it as I have been so far.
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Some small notes.
Use her ;c ;d as a Anti-Air is great. It may be slow, but it beats & or trades with alot of shit.
Also, her Short Hop ;c ;d causes good pressure.
Also just like in old KOF's, I find it very important that Mature players practice her Ebony Tears and get them down smoothly one after another. Furthermore, practice to understand the correct spacing & timing for tossing them out. This move is one of Matures very few strong points. It covers a good amount of the screen and can blow up short hops if used correctly. Also, clearly the EX version is Very good. Can make some pretty good pressure setups off of them.
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Some small notes.
Use her ;c ;d as a Anti-Air is great. It may be slow, but it beats & or trades with alot of shit.
Also, her Short Hop ;c ;d causes good pressure.
Also just like in old KOF's, I find it very important that Mature players practice her Ebony Tears and get them down smoothly one after another. Furthermore, practice to understand the correct spacing & timing for tossing them out. This move is one of Matures very few strong points. It covers a good amount of the screen and can blow up short hops if used correctly. Also, clearly the EX version is Very good. Can make some pretty good pressure setups off of them.
You don't think she's very good? Her damage output is low I know, but...
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Some small notes.
Use her ;c ;d as a Anti-Air is great. It may be slow, but it beats & or trades with alot of shit.
Also, her Short Hop ;c ;d causes good pressure.
Also just like in old KOF's, I find it very important that Mature players practice her Ebony Tears and get them down smoothly one after another. Furthermore, practice to understand the correct spacing & timing for tossing them out. This move is one of Matures very few strong points. It covers a good amount of the screen and can blow up short hops if used correctly. Also, clearly the EX version is Very good. Can make some pretty good pressure setups off of them.
You don't think she's very good? Her damage output is low I know, but...
Huh!? R you sure your referring to me. If so I didn't say or mean that at all, this is just some ways to play her. I think shes very good. She or Vice are always the anchor on my team.
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For anti-air I'll throw out a standing D since its faster than CD and seems to trade/beat out just as much. If I have no time, I'll do crouching C.
Question I have is what use can I put qcb+D to outside of Rekka air combos? It's really wonky on its conditions to actually strike and if I'm fighting someone who mashes under pressure, I get stuffed. I need people's to respect mah blockstrings
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Some small notes.
Use her ;c ;d as a Anti-Air is great. It may be slow, but it beats & or trades with alot of shit.
Also, her Short Hop ;c ;d causes good pressure.
Also just like in old KOF's, I find it very important that Mature players practice her Ebony Tears and get them down smoothly one after another. Furthermore, practice to understand the correct spacing & timing for tossing them out. This move is one of Matures very few strong points. It covers a good amount of the screen and can blow up short hops if used correctly. Also, clearly the EX version is Very good. Can make some pretty good pressure setups off of them.
You don't think she's very good? Her damage output is low I know, but...
Actually her damage output is pretty decent. If you're starting from 3-4 light attacks for her combos, it's expected her damage will scale a lot more if you do drive cancel combos. If you can punish an opponent, it's best to do s.C as a starter. With 1 or 2 meters, she can output a lot of damage with s.C > qcb+BD > s.C > another loop or rekkas. With drive cancel and 1 meter, you can do light attacks into 1-2 rekkas > [DC] qcb+BD > s.C > rekkas. To be able to do high damage with her, it's important to learn the link after qcb+BD to s.C
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Some small notes.
Use her ;c ;d as a Anti-Air is great. It may be slow, but it beats & or trades with alot of shit.
Also, her Short Hop ;c ;d causes good pressure.
Also just like in old KOF's, I find it very important that Mature players practice her Ebony Tears and get them down smoothly one after another. Furthermore, practice to understand the correct spacing & timing for tossing them out. This move is one of Matures very few strong points. It covers a good amount of the screen and can blow up short hops if used correctly. Also, clearly the EX version is Very good. Can make some pretty good pressure setups off of them.
You don't think she's very good? Her damage output is low I know, but...
Huh!? R you sure your referring to me. If so I didn't say or mean that at all, this is just some ways to play her. I think shes very good. She or Vice are always the anchor on my team.
I think it seemed implied you felt that way because of the wording of "This move is one of Matures very few strong points."
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I think it seemed implied you felt that way because of the wording of "This move is one of Matures very few strong points."
I see.
No worries, the problem is me. I'm just used to Mature having more moves, the decide and her DP from the previous KOF's. Which makes it feel like they toned her down in XIII to me. However, she's still very much a strong character with those moves gone.
The reason I said very few is because; For me It just feels like she lost some great options she used to have. Just playing KOF with her & her being one of my mains for years, its taking time for me to adapt to her XIII playstyle.
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Now, I only played 98, but it feels to me that Mature has more usable moves than before; despair is actually safe on block now, and qcb+b comes out quickly now. Deicide always had slow start up and slow recovery. Her old DP left her terribly vulnerable on block, and I am pretty sure it wasn't invincible either. EX despair gives her an actual reversal now. I like you have to play her somewhat differently now.
IDK, if they became better moves in later games.
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I think it seemed implied you felt that way because of the wording of "This move is one of Matures very few strong points."
I see.
No worries, the problem is me. I'm just used to Mature having more moves, the decide and her DP from the previous KOF's. Which makes it feel like they toned her down in XIII to me. However, she's still very much a strong character with those moves gone.
The reason I said very few is because; For me It just feels like she lost some great options she used to have. Just playing KOF with her & her being one of my mains for years, its taking time for me to adapt to her XIII playstyle.
I'ma be real-- I'm glad I don't have to worry about that dp move anymore... It wasn't that great to me other than BC combos from 02/02UM, and even then you'd have to worry about the precise input... It didn't really serve a purpose.
Changing Despair into a ;dp move with the option to attack or not serves better I feel. She can cover the air while chasing behind her Ebony Tears (especially her EX Ebony Tears), making her an almost unstoppable wall of rushdown. There's always the "empty jump in" tactic without necessarily using a short hop, with the option to hit A/C to attack if the opponent does decide to do something, which can also set up for a reset pending on what the opponent actually does when they get hit.
This is one of those situations where "less is more" for Mature...
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I'ma be real-- I'm glad I don't have to worry about that dp move anymore... It wasn't that great to me other than BC combos from 02/02UM, and even then you'd have to worry about the precise input... It didn't really serve a purpose.
Changing Despair into a ;dp move with the option to attack or not serves better I feel. She can cover the air while chasing behind her Ebony Tears (especially her EX Ebony Tears), making her an almost unstoppable wall of rushdown. There's always the "empty jump in" tactic without necessarily using a short hop, with the option to hit A/C to attack if the opponent does decide to do something, which can also set up for a reset pending on what the opponent actually does when they get hit.
This is one of those situations where "less is more" for Mature...
Yea, i've realized the Ebony Tears with Despair tactic. Pointed out that Ebony and EX Ebony is part of what helps her pressure game. One of the first tactics you"ll catch onto when you learn when you play her. The modifications of her Despair & addition of EX Despair is really good. Also, a course she has many other tactics including her Death Downer and Metal Massacre.
As far as how worthless her old DP was; her light version was pretty damn safe on block in 98 and only punishable by a few moves and command grab IIRC. Also, it pushed the character forward. Furthermore, causing chip damage for each time she spinned around (4 or 5 hits of chip damage). I used it alot against Short & Hyper Hops, along with despair. Also, just to chip out the opponent and or force them to use meter for a Blow back attack to stop the chip & pressure.
Her Deceaser from the old KOF's was good too. In 02UM IIRC the light version pulled the opponent in closer to you like XIII Vice, then you was able to do LP to Death Downer on the staggered opponent from there if i remember right. Having played 2k2um in awhile.
She's very good in 13 with a good variety of options, I see I just have some adjusting to do before I fully understand her in 13.
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Weird/cool stuff I found in the lab tonight:
Jump c, cl. C, light despair does close to half a guard gauge and, depending on when you do the despair hit, is safe on block.
The super flash on DM's and NeoMax messes with the multi-hits of EX Ebony Tears and more often than not causes the character to fall out of the lock.
Ebony Tears, especially the EX version can cross up(duh) under perfect circumstances to create unblockables.
Despair, done at about chest level and below combos into anything. Particularly quirky is B Metal Massacre which allows a far standing D link and does 209 damage.
Crossing up an opponent in the corner(say the right one) with Despair, any amount of immediate movement away from the corner(left in this case) puts them back in it. This allows for cute stuff like doing qcf+P and what comes out is you Rekka-ing them in the corner.
Ex Rekkas will never hit off of Ex Metal Massacre(even with the aid of cl. C)or any Despair version.
I hate far C.
Far B will reach the opponent after a blocked D Metal Massacre.
Despair puts you in the air on frame 1, it looks like. I could be wrong.
And some other Non-interesting stuff.
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I'm loving how Mature can be a serious threat in any position on a team. As point or mid, she builds enough meter for strong combos. As anchor, she's a monster... I managed to come up with a few combos, but this is one I like alot:
JINXHAND's KOF XIII Mature HD Combo Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCsoegVQrbU#ws)
I managed to add another EX Ebony Tears, and finish the combo accordingly, but I can't remember the dmg off the top of my head. I'll write out a list of other combos I came across while practicing. Here's I can think of:
j.C, s.C, HD, delay s.C, qcb+C, qcb+C, qcb+C, HD Cancel, qcf,hcb+AC (3x), qcf,hcb+C, qcb+C (1 hit), HD Cancel, dp+A~A, qcb+B, Max Cancel, Neomax
There's a way to get her Heaven's Gate in there and then Neomax, but the timing is a little more strict, and you have to do 2 EX Ebony Tears vice 3. I believe this here does more than the one with the slight mod of adding Heaven's Gate, but I'm not sure at this moment. I'll have damages posted up eventually.
Oh yeah, cross up Despair into ;qcb + ;b into ;qcb ;hcf + ;b works wonders. Mature can build enough meter to net a couple of these in 1 round, whether it's a crossup or not. Infact, connecting a close s.C into despair will allow the follow up, so I feel that's the best option if you want to do something other than rekkas.
This is very impractical, but Mature's capable of doing stupid things like EX Ebony Tears run to the other side, and throw out another EX Ebony Tears and it all combo, allowing her to do something else. Hell, there very well might be some purpose for it other than combo vid material, but don't see it as of now. She can be very flashy with her combos, and alot of them can take you to the corner from the other side, which is a plus.
Yeah Milln, I tried to find a combo using all EX moves for fun, and I came across that tidbit of EX rekkas not comboing off of EX Metal Massacre. I tried everything in the corner as well, but to no avail none of that worked...
EDIT: Here's a better HD combo imo:
JINXHAND's KOF XIII Mature HD Combo 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEWYt2PBEFs#ws)
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^Good Shizz Jinx
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^Good Shizz Jinx
Thanks man... I'm totally loving how Mature can take full advantage of the game system, moreso than she could in 98, 02, and in XII... She's really definitely great at punishing, comboing at any point (or to the corner), and just being fancy overall...
I believe she can punish greatly where most people can't... Sure some instances might require meter, but there are quite a few that don't, especially punishing with far s.B (the one hit version), which can go straight into rekkas, super, or an HD combo pending the circumstance. I managed to find s.D works for some punishes, which to my knowledge should allow for an HD combo still... Based on the sessions I had last night, Mature can build enough to do HD combos consistently. I believe this is matchup dependent, but nevertheless, it's still possible...
I'll keep testing out stuff with her and post up...
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You've made me want to contribute my own labwork, Jinx.
Best punish is as Ash said: close C to EX Metal Massacre ad infinitum to whatever ended.
Best ender I can come up with is off of rekka(9) drive cancel Qcb+D, qcb+B, qcb+B, close C for a reset.
I absolutely cannot stand her far C. It gets me in so much trouble. Awful hitbox and active frames, moves her forward so you beg to be hit, takes a year to come out... I really can't find any redeeming quality to this move.
B Metal Massacre(that I've affectionately started calling 'Claw Dash') is her least safe move from a frame data perspective. It's not punishable on block, but it puts you close enough for close C or Close B range. People will let you lock them down with this move. Every single person I've tried it on has allowed at least two reps before trying to get out. And when they do press a button, they get hit more often than not and then it's combo city. It's strict timing on the follow ups so you can stuff their attempts, but I feel it's legit.
Good damage off of a B poke or close b is EX Rekka drive cancel D Metal Massacre to whatever. Ill check damages when I get home to see which would be the most damaging option.
Question while I'm at work: does Nocturnal Lights cause hard knockdown?
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^Good Shizz Jinx
Thanks man... I'm totally loving how Mature can take full advantage of the game system, moreso than she could in 98, 02, and in XII... She's really definitely great at punishing, comboing at any point (or to the corner), and just being fancy overall...
I believe she can punish greatly where most people can't... Sure some instances might require meter, but there are quite a few that don't, especially punishing with far s.B (the one hit version), which can go straight into rekkas, super, or an HD combo pending the circumstance. I managed to find s.D works for some punishes, which to my knowledge should allow for an HD combo still... Based on the sessions I had last night, Mature can build enough to do HD combos consistently. I believe this is matchup dependent, but nevertheless, it's still possible...
I'll keep testing out stuff with her and post up...
Hell yea, Far St. ;b is good. Just as Vice's is which I use to chain into her mayhem to score a knockdown which I love; and it has a nice start up. I use alot in my footsies; and as you pointed out it chains in to her rekkas & super.
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You've made me want to contribute my own labwork, Jinx.
Best punish is as Ash said: close C to EX Metal Massacre ad infinitum to whatever ended.
Best ender I can come up with is off of rekka(9) drive cancel Qcb+D, qcb+B, qcb+B, close C for a reset.
I absolutely cannot stand her far C. It gets me in so much trouble. Awful hitbox and active frames, moves her forward so you beg to be hit, takes a year to come out... I really can't find any redeeming quality to this move.
B Metal Massacre(that I've affectionately started calling 'Claw Dash') is her least safe move from a frame data perspective. It's not punishable on block, but it puts you close enough for close C or Close B range. People will let you lock them down with this move. Every single person I've tried it on has allowed at least two reps before trying to get out. And when they do press a button, they get hit more often than not and then it's combo city. It's strict timing on the follow ups so you can stuff their attempts, but I feel it's legit.
Good damage off of a B poke or close b is EX Rekka drive cancel D Metal Massacre to whatever. Ill check damages when I get home to see which would be the most damaging option.
Question while I'm at work: does Nocturnal Lights cause hard knockdown?
I just started to incorporate qcb B into my attack strings and it is incredibly good. It leaves you in their face for stand C pressure and it's opened up my game for cracking good defensive play. Another nice thing about it is that it leaves you in position to go for crossup Despair. I'm a newbie but far C has helped me in some spacing instances where I want to begin pressure but I'm in a footsie battle. I used to use it after strings which end in far stand B.
My goto punish is cl.C xx Rekkas [dc], EX QCB K, cl.C xx rekkas and nets around 350 but it's not optimal. From what I found in training mode cl. C xx EX Rekkas [dc on 4th hit], QCB D, cl.C xx Rekkas deals 444.
By the way what are you guys doing for HD combos with only 2 or 3 meters? I'm doing rekka [dc on 3rd hit], qcb B [dc], rekkas ad nauseum into Neo.
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Close B, Ex Rekka(4) DC D Metal Massacre, close C, EX Metal Massacre, close C, Rekka
And
Close B, EX Rekka(4) DC D Metal Massacre, close C, Nocturnal Lights
Both do the same amount of damage: 457. I found this to be very cool.
It seems like anything over ten hits and no drive meter, it's more damaging to end a combo with Nocturnal Lights rather than Ex Metal Massacre, close C, Rekka because of proration. WITH a drive bar, though, you can Rekka DC D Metal Massacre, B Metal, B Metal, Close C for more damage and reset.
If you aren't confident you can B Metal off of a Despair, you can Close C and whiff a B Metal to put you in throw range to continue your pressure.
Awakening Blood hits in a diagonal line from (youll excuse me) just below the M of her name if she performs it on her side and then... Spatula's out on the ground on the other. A raw one can defeat jump ins on reaction as a last resort
@DarkGeneral: Cool Man. B Metal Massacre is a fine move. I can't justify Drive canceling an EX Metal Massacre in the middle of a regular Rekka. It makes no sense from a proration standpoint for value on resourceses spent. If you really want to drive cancel you can get similar damage for no meter by doing close c, rekka(9) DC qcb+D, qcb+b, qcb+b, close C. Guaranteed to corner carry. If you really want to spend a meter, you can either close c, Ex qcb+kick or close c, ex Rekka(5) DC qcb+D or DC on the 4th hit for something similar to the above. She has a lot of creativity in her combos and I realize it more and more everyday.
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I'm diggin' the wealth of info... There's a few people over here in SD trying to learn Mature, and I'm still trying search my brain for notes to share with these cats, while picking up new things in the lab...
Anyway, as far as far s.C goes, it's definitely not what it was in 02UM or prior... But, nevertheless, it's still great for closing the gap... I believe you should be able to whiff cancel this move into whatever, so that helps, especially if you're trying to stay behind an Ebony Tears projectile, although you can use that to make Despair safe...
I did manage to come across some block strings that can be used in conjunction with EX Ebony Tears that can help break guard, as well as do chip damage and allow for mixups, especially fishing for a c.B to hit confirm into something else. If you time it right, you can force a GCCD and it will whiff, and possibly trade with EX Ebony Tears if there's still some hits left...
I'm comprising the list and will post up later... But this is something to think about...
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@DarkGeneral: Cool Man. B Metal Massacre is a fine move. I can't justify Drive canceling an EX Metal Massacre in the middle of a regular Rekka. It makes no sense from a proration standpoint for value on resourceses spent. If you really want to drive cancel you can get similar damage for no meter by doing close c, rekka(9) DC qcb+D, qcb+b, qcb+b, close C. Guaranteed to corner carry. If you really want to spend a meter, you can either close c, Ex qcb+kick or close c, ex Rekka(5) DC qcb+D or DC on the 4th hit for something similar to the above. She has a lot of creativity in her combos and I realize it more and more everyday.
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I didn't know you could get the extra hits off of qcb D dc'd from rekkas. I should be using the EX Rekka combos more but I've mainly been using the one listed above because thats the one I practiced first with Mature to get decent damage while getting used to the game mechanics. I'm going to start incorporating some of this info in my game.
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Yeah, EX Metal Massacre does so much damage, especially if you have like 3 stocks, and you just do s.C to EX Metal Massacre loops and finish with whatever you want. I'm trying to see if it can also be used as a special punish for moves that push out further than regular B Metal Massacre, and rekkas...
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Is there a trick to getting Close B, Ex Rekka(4) DC D Metal Massacre ? I can't seem to get the MM to connect at all.
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Is there a trick to getting Close B, Ex Rekka(4) DC D Metal Massacre ? I can't seem to get the MM to connect at all.
I don't think D metal massacre would connect with that... If it were an EX metal massacre, then that would be different... I'm not even sure if landing a counter hit s.B would allow the rest to connect... Honestly, if you are to use an EX move, your best bet is to EX metal massacre rather than EX rekka...
Oh wait!!! If you're launching them after that last hit, there might be a chance that you can land it, but I'm not available to test it right now... I'll test later and figure out the timing and post up when I get home... Other than that, if you're trying to do a straight up ground combo only, then it's not gonna work...
EDIT: Yes it can connect, but I managed to do it in HD mode... It should be possible to combo normally... I have it on my vid posted earlier in this thread, but here's the link if it's too much to scroll: JINXHAND's KOF XIII Mature HD Combo 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEWYt2PBEFs#ws)
Just watch for the timing though. You have to do immediately after you input the last rekka... She'll DC into qcb+D, but it will look a bit delayed though... If you don't do it fast enough, she'll miss the hitbox by like a small fraction...
I'll try to record it with inputs next time... I had to use the input record function, then play it while recording on my iphone, because I didn't have my laptop available with me at that time...
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The combo I'm talking about is done by RyRy in the video below.
Winter Brawl 6 - KOF13 GF - RyRy VS LB ChrisG (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlcaPeRSLlY#ws)
Usually I'd do normal C rekkas DC EX Metal Massacre, but this seems a little better.
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The timing for that specific cancel that was used in both combos should be the same... One is just a juggle though, and the other was a straight up ground combo... Nothing else is different...
Ok, I take back what I said about EX rekkas... They're good-- they do damage... The only thing that sucks is that they don't take you to the corner like EX MM does...
So my thing is this: you gotta decide which one to use for the specific situation... I will say though that if you have drive, you still can do EX rekkas and DC into D Metal Massacre, then allowing you to combo further... Other than that, if you're trying to save meter, you gotta determine if you wanna put the opponent in the corner, and sacrifice some damage, or just straight up do the damage, and sacrifice the distance traveled in reaching the corner...
Now if you're like a few steps from the corner, then pick the best option: damage!!!
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Her counter hit j.C+D is awesome... You can land dp+AC, qcb+B/s.C mid-screen or dp+AC, qcb+B, qcb+B, s.C in the corner...
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Her counter hit j.C+D is awesome... You can land dp+AC, qcb+B/s.C mid-screen or dp+AC, qcb+B, qcb+B, s.C in the corner...
There's a few more things she can do midscreen, but yeah her corner combos are pretty good... If she has meter, there's always the option to do EX Ebony Tears combos...
s.CD is just as good also... If it's a CH, and if you time it right, Mature can HD bypass into a special and combo from practically anywhere on the screen...
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Testing in training i didn't have seen this combo before :
s.C,rekka EX (4),qcb.D,s.C, rekka 444 dmg 1 ex 1 drive and travel the whole screen lol
d.B,d.B,s.B,s.B,... does 379
Very good damages for a midscreen combo, and not that hard to do.
NVM, the "classic" juggle is better,
s.C,rekka EX (5),qcb.D,qcb.B,qcb.B,s.C 458
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Testing in training i didn't have seen this combo before :
s.C,rekka EX (4),qcb.D,s.C, rekka 444 dmg 1 ex 1 drive and travel the whole screen lol
d.B,d.B,s.B,s.B,... does 379
Very good damages for a midscreen combo, and not that hard to do.
NVM, the "classic" juggle is better,
s.C,rekka EX (5),qcb.D,qcb.B,qcb.B,s.C 458
hmm, I'm having trouble getting a second qcb.B out of that "classic" juggle, which I've been practicing a ton and have down pretty solid, aside from that second qcb. And when I hit the qcb.b I can't connect the last s.C. Am I going too slow?
also, I read that heaven's gates has projectile invincibility? does anyone know more about the data on that? I feel like I've tried it in a match and got hit, but I may be misremembering.
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Testing in training i didn't have seen this combo before :
s.C,rekka EX (4),qcb.D,s.C, rekka 444 dmg 1 ex 1 drive and travel the whole screen lol
d.B,d.B,s.B,s.B,... does 379
Very good damages for a midscreen combo, and not that hard to do.
NVM, the "classic" juggle is better,
s.C,rekka EX (5),qcb.D,qcb.B,qcb.B,s.C 458
hmm, I'm having trouble getting a second qcb.B out of that "classic" juggle, which I've been practicing a ton and have down pretty solid, aside from that second qcb. And when I hit the qcb.b I can't connect the last s.C. Am I going too slow?
also, I read that heaven's gates has projectile invincibility? does anyone know more about the data on that? I feel like I've tried it in a match and got hit, but I may be misremembering.
Yeah it does, seen at 3:36 here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=LL3ES4C2abtsUzPK3pHj15oA&v=i5AeoPo2Rj0#t=215s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=LL3ES4C2abtsUzPK3pHj15oA&v=i5AeoPo2Rj0#t=215s)
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also, I read that heaven's gates has projectile invincibility? does anyone know more about the data on that? I feel like I've tried it in a match and got hit, but I may be misremembering.
it's at the very beginning when she's holding herself. Pretty much before she moves forward. It's nice but you still have to do it pretty close up (about max sweep distance at max range) and on reaction.
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Hey guys, was wondering if someone could help me with my team strategy regarding Mature.
I play Mr.Karate / Mature / Joe. And i play with the philosophy that the first character SHOULDNT be a battery, he should build AND use meter/drive, which Mr.Karate excelts at in my opinion so that aint a problem. I believe the 2nd char (in my case, Mature) should be the battery character, and i was wondering if you guys think Mature is well suited for that.
I mean i think she builds up meter pretty fast thanks to her rekkas, but i must say im by no means a good Mature player, ive been focusing mainly on Mr.Karate so i was hoping you guys could tell me if Mature can be played effectively that way or if im just wasting my time playing her on that spot. My strategy with Mature is to build as much meter as possible while damaging my opponent, but the main idea is to go into Joe having full HD and 4 meters, so i can easily confirm any hit into Max Cancel -> kill with his ridiculuous max cancel damage.
Sry for the wall of text, hoping some1 can give me some pointers :)
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I play Mature 2nd (mostly now) and she's a great battery. But if she's going in the 2nd slot, you're better off spending meter to possibly kill a character or at least have Joe have less work to do when coming in. But this is probably why she's better on point as Mr. Karate can go second. (or simply play Mature/Joe/Karate). Karate can build meter with backdash>Air hcf+B/D (or hcb. whichever the motion is.) But Karate also does decent damage/pressure without meter. Mature doesn't do much damage without meter though. (or at least half a drive bar.)
It can work, but you hinder things you can do with your 2nd slot character since they're supposed to be able to build meter and use some bar for the damage/kill. In the longrun though, all characters should have the ability to use meter regardless because you'll build it back. You'll definitively build it back before Joe steps up.
Personally I wouldn't "not" use meter with a character. Especially with someone like Mature who has good EX moves and good damaging combos off half a drive bar. If you're going to build meter with her, put her in front and have Karate second.
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Yeah Mature is a great battery of course... Put her up front, unless the matchup doesn't seem to go in her favor. Even then, I'd keep her at point, because she can consistently replace whatever meter she used, and you'll at least have full drive and meter when Mr. Karate is up at bat...
You can't restrict yourself from using meter, especially with her. Mature is one of those characters who shines when using meter, so use it when you can. Don't be too conservative with it. At the very least, use it when you have a successful hit confirm... Sure, there's EX Ebony Tears setups and such, but if you're trying to hold onto some meter, just using it on hit confirm will work out... Use everything the game engine gives you, because she needs it imo, not in a "she's low tier" way, but she has alot of tools and tricks and is a resourceful battery, so use 'em...
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I do think Mature can sit well anywhere on a team, and I personally play her as anchor right now, but I agree that she's best on point.
I play her anchor for a few reasons. Personally: she's the only character I truly feel capable with so far, and I also don't use other characters that are more meter-dependent (Mai and Billy, but that'll change).
Having Mature come in with some meter is helpful, though. She has a pretty good reversal in her EX Despair if I need a panic button, She has great 1d1m options with decent damage, and her Neo Max is nice to have in your pocket if you're fighting anyone with a projectile. Maybe I just haven't fought people familiar enough with Mature, but I manage to catch a lot of people with Neo Max on reaction to moves with some startup. I'd imagine that even if someone is familiar with her, though, that having meter would just make someone that much more hesitant to approach her, giving her a little more control over the match.
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Been messing with her in practice and was wondering, why do ppl keep supercanceling her rekkas into QCB HCF+K? Noticed that QCF QCF+A is the one whose final hit doesn't scale (always does 100 dmg, like Takuma's ranbu) so you will always end up getting more damage out of it no matter how long your combo was prior to activating it.
I'll be running her in my team this week, lets see how it goes.
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Hey guys, was wondering if someone could help me with my team strategy regarding Mature.
I play Mr.Karate / Mature / Joe. And i play with the philosophy that the first character SHOULDNT be a battery, he should build AND use meter/drive, which Mr.Karate excelts at in my opinion so that aint a problem. I believe the 2nd char (in my case, Mature) should be the battery character, and i was wondering if you guys think Mature is well suited for that.
I don't know that, but what i'm certain of it's joe is better in first overall because he has trouble against some char when they get meter. And his hadotrap/pressure game his really really good. And meter gives solution against him who are really powerful (like reversal invincible SDM in the hole between the f.B and the hcb.A).
Plus he excells at doing very high damages via his stun combo with a very few gauge, thus it's the perfect char for building meter easily and use it in the most efficient way.
Moreover Joe has a hard time to do a very damaging combo easily, however in 3 karate is very well suited since he can build meter quite fast to get is lvl 2 if he hasn't it yet and if he land a combo his hd is damaging enough to finish someone with 2-3 most of the time.
For Mature positioning I think she is well suited in 2 and can do well anywhere, she needs meter to have a reversal and she can convert meter in damages quite easily by her frametraps. And thanks to her pressure game she builds meter rather fast. Although she might have trouble against some projectile users.
I'm not playing the char so it's just a feeling from what I have been seeing of the few players playing her so far.
hmm, I'm having trouble getting a second qcb.B out of that "classic" juggle, which I've been practicing a ton and have down pretty solid, aside from that second qcb. And when I hit the qcb.b I can't connect the last s.C. Am I going too slow.
You must do both qcb.B at a timing reversal, so buffer them (If you don't know by doing a special move and keep the button will make it comes out a the first free frame for it (while a few frames window), thus you buff the move while the previous one is still on the screen and keep the button push).
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Been messing with her in practice and was wondering, why do ppl keep supercanceling her rekkas into QCB HCF+K? Noticed that QCF QCF+A is the one whose final hit doesn't scale (always does 100 dmg, like Takuma's ranbu) so you will always end up getting more damage out of it no matter how long your combo was prior to activating it.
I'll be running her in my team this week, lets see how it goes.
Corner carry. It always carries to the corner, which is where she's deadliest.
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Corner carry. It always carries to the corner, which is where she's deadliest.
Hmm, I think I prefer the damage boost. This is especially helpful when starting with lows since she starts scaling quite a bit.
They can get out of the corner in many ways, especially if they have meter, but they ain't getting that health back.
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There's also hard knockdown (which is her only one) which IMO helps Mature's oki game greatly (especially with any ebony tears).
If you're looking for damage off hit confirm>rekka, you're better off spending 1 bar and half a drive on EX rekka x4>DC>hcb+D>cl.C>Rekkas or Rekkas>DC>hcb+D>hcb+B>hcb+B>cl.C.
If you're letting opponents out the corner against mature, then you're not pressuring the opponent enough with her. (which she does easily.)
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Trying to learn Mature at the moment and I have a few questions. Mainly how am I supposed to play her. I made the mistake of not realizing how gross she was when I first got the game so she's on my secondary squad. Also I got really good with Vice(also on secondary squad) when I was searching for more characters after getting a good setting with my main squad, and I tend to play them somewhat similary(with normals atleast XD ).
I know that this character can be a beast but I need a little footing. I've taken her out to battle offline and I have hit, and dropped, several HD combos and a few dirty setups with Despair and that Nocturnal(?) Tears move. But I still feel uneasy with her. Any help would be appreciated.
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I like her EX Despair so very much, so fast and excellent horizontal reach to boot.
Is s.C the optimal follow-up mid-screen? What about the corner?
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most use s.C. Personally I like using s.A mid screen and if I catch them at a higher angle than me, I generally do short hop A, B or D.
corner s.C would be the best option for the damage. can't really get much of a left/right mixup in the corner.
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^Thanks man, I'll stick to mashing C.
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Trying to learn Mature at the moment and I have a few questions. Mainly how am I supposed to play her. I made the mistake of not realizing how gross she was when I first got the game so she's on my secondary squad. Also I got really good with Vice(also on secondary squad) when I was searching for more characters after getting a good setting with my main squad, and I tend to play them somewhat similary(with normals atleast XD ).
I know that this character can be a beast but I need a little footing. I've taken her out to battle offline and I have hit, and dropped, several HD combos and a few dirty setups with Despair and that Nocturnal(?) Tears move. But I still feel uneasy with her. Any help would be appreciated.
My general playstyle with Mature is rushdown with a bit of mixups, capitalizing on how Despair works now compared to how it was in older KOFs. She can zone at times, but please know she's no Kensou or Athena. I'll use Ebony Tears on knockdown, so they'll have to block it, or at times roll, most likely into a grab at least. EX Ebony Tears has some uses, I'll try to use that for shenanigans if I have enough meter to use it and can build it back quick enough.
You don't want to whore out Despair; while it's a good move, there are characters who have setups just for that first part at least. It leaves you open until you decide to attack, and even still, there are some characters who have moves that beat that out.
Metal Massacre is great, as it helps you close in on the opponent. I personally only use the B version for that, the D version I'll use in combos.
Speaking of combos, if you're having trouble doing HD combos, just do this one instead:
s.C, (HD), s.C, qcb+Px3*, (HDC), dp+A,A, [qcb+B, (HDC), dp+A,A]x2, qcb+B, Neomax
*When doing the first rekka, don't HDC into dp+A,A until the opponent is in a juggle state. Other than that, you should be able to buffer in the rest of the combo without any real issues. The timing isn't hard at all; infact, you should feel the rhythm as far as timing goes. There are other combos that she can do that are stronger, but this one is easy and only takes up 2 stocks of meter and 1 whole drive. So if she's your point character, it can be done, especially if you're proficient at building meter at a rapid pace.
I can't think of anything else at the moment, but I hope this helps. Do you have any other questions regarding Mature???
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I can't think of anything else at the moment, but I hope this helps. Do you have any other questions regarding Mature???
So I'm just now reading your and first I would like to say thank you for your advice. I've been playing her extensively and have been getting better with her. I've learned to not use despair cross ups so much as my opponents have been catching on to it. I'm just now learning that HD combo you suggested and it's getting there. I still drop her [Qcb. ;a xx Qcb. ;b] HD loop sometimes when it comes time cancel into super(I get lost in the rekkas :P) but it's getting better nonetheless.
I guess my question is now, how to use her better on rushdown? I've been abusing her St. ;b xx Qcb. ;b frame trapish thing and have got a few HD combos off it. But other than that I can't seem to do much else. I can't find any good normal cross up setups and her hop/in options seem lacking. I most go in with hop with ;a and go from there.
I'm kind of inclined against zoning(not a rule or something, I'm just bad at it lol). I play King and I rushdown for the most part with her and it's surprising effective, atleast the way I go about doing it. I know her ;b button is good for zoning and using her fireball given space is also key. Her jumping ;d destroys Benimaru's advances in the air given a proper read. As far as zoning goes I believe I can develop that on my own should I need to.
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The thing with Mature is that you can "technically" develop a rushdown technique that looks continuous, but there will always be holes in it no matter what. The object more or less is to cover those holes up or constantly switch them up, so that the opponent can't truly tell when to strike back with a reversal.
You already know the tools to use: rekkas, qcb+B, cr.B, cl.B, s.B, sometimes far s.C, cr.A, s.A to name a few. You have to develop your style or rushing down, while putting fear into the opponent, so he/she won't attempt to reversal, GCCD, or GCAB.
When you conceal these holes within your rushdown, keep in mind that you can start developing good reads on when your opponent attacks, as you can use Heaven's Gate to beat out whatever they attempt. While that's not a necessity, it's something to think about - it was more needed in the older KOFs imo, but she doesn't need that, because she can punish pretty well, especially with HD combos and EX combos that can go into HD if desired.
Speaking of combos, I might have mentioned this before, but it's because it's essential- master her cl.C to EX Metal Massacre link. I kid you not, with a couple of bars, you can simply do that loop twice, and link that with a cl.C and go into HD if you like, or just finish with rekkas or whatever. It does a huge chunk of damage, and you don't have to spend drive if you don't want to. Personally, depending on amount of life left, I'd spend it, only because she is capable of building whatever meter she used.
Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about zoning with her. Again she's no Kensou, but whenever you do need it, it's there. At the very least, it allows you to close in without doing too much, per sé. But the thing with that is you have to read your opponent and see what they do. If they roll, then you've got good options, starting with a throw at the minimum. If they just sit there and wait to jump, you use Despair, cr.C, or even a s.C if timed right, which becomes cl.C. Essentially, you're not zoning to keep away, you're zoning with the intent of closing in.
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I can't stress this enough but please abuse st.D. It's such a unused move of Matures for both stopping short hops, jumps, people jumping out of corners, etc. Does good at stuffing a few ground buttons too.
This normal has made my Mature more of an ass to deal with because people can't jump around all willy nilly and have to respect her ground pressure even more.
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I can't stress this enough but please abuse st.D. It's such a unused move of Matures for both stopping short hops, jumps, people jumping out of corners, etc. Does good at stuffing a few ground buttons too.
This normal has made my Mature more of an ass to deal with because people can't jump around all willy nilly and have to respect her ground pressure even more.
I agree, cr.c also does okay at stopping hop/jump pressure when you are in the corner.
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I can't stress this enough but please abuse st.D. It's such a unused move of Matures for both stopping short hops, jumps, people jumping out of corners, etc. Does good at stuffing a few ground buttons too.
This normal has made my Mature more of an ass to deal with because people can't jump around all willy nilly and have to respect her ground pressure even more.
I agree, cr.c also does okay at stopping hop/jump pressure when you are in the corner.
I actually like cr. C when I face characters with great vertical vertical/horizontal hitboxes in the air. It's going to lose to things like Iori's hopping C, but if cr.C loses to it, so will st.D.
I always think of st.D as something used when you read an opponent. But this is me assuming we're talking about FAR st.D. It's a great spacing tool, and it almost always put you in a better position than the opponent. But I always prefer cr.C simply cause it places me in a better advantage if I happen to anti-air.
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KOF XIII - Mature - Combos - Mixups - Safe Jumps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIEJ2Q6zC7Y#ws)
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KOF XIII - Mature - Combos - Mixups - Safe Jumps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIEJ2Q6zC7Y#ws)
I love how 1) Finally someone replies to this thread and 2) They reply with a godlike video on my birthday!
Mature <3
I've actually been trying real hard to find some resets myself. I do feel like that's really the direction Mature should be going; screwing with people's heads as much as humanly possible. The more I play her, the more I realize that she forces people to hang themselves slowly, and then the fun begins.
There's also a sick mixup for Mature after her Heaven's Gate (a move I feel we need more tech with). I know there's a 4-frame safe jump setup after it, but you can do an ambiguous crossup with the A-Version Despair. The setup I've been screwing with today is, after Heaven's Gate, wait just a small moment, whiff one rekka, then go into Despair. Depending on your timing for the Rekka whiff, they have to guess back or front. Reversal DPs do beat this out, but the timing is so strict to reversal the potential crossup or non-crossup that I think it can scare people enough to not press a button and just try to block.
I think I'll dedicate the time to figure out better setups after Heaven's Gate this week. Unfortunately I don't have a capture card, so if I find anything, I'd have to type it out and end it with a, "IT LOOKS COOL. I PROMISE."
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There's also a sick mixup for Mature after her Heaven's Gate (a move I feel we need more tech with). I know there's a 4-frame safe jump setup after it, but you can do an ambiguous crossup with the A-Version Despair. The setup I've been screwing with today is, after Heaven's Gate, wait just a small moment, whiff one rekka, then go into Despair. Depending on your timing for the Rekka whiff, they have to guess back or front. Reversal DPs do beat this out, but the timing is so strict to reversal the potential crossup or non-crossup that I think it can scare people enough to not press a button and just try to block.
Sup man, I just tried this and it's a pretty cool set-up and I'm glad you enjoy the video that was posted. I'm learning a bit of Mature myself after getting rocked by Chris G at UFGT9 and I'm feeling her so far. I gotta play some offline matches with her soon and see how I do with her.
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Sup man, I just tried this and it's a pretty cool set-up and I'm glad you enjoy the video that was posted. I'm learning a bit of Mature myself after getting rocked by Chris G at UFGT9 and I'm feeling her so far. I gotta play some offline matches with her soon and see how I do with her.
What's good, brother. Yeah, Mature is really fun! She has her fair share of BS stuff, but compared to the top tiers it's not as bad as people feel it is, haha. Funny I should say that, cause when Chris picked up Mature last year and I asked him why, he said his team wasn't cheap enough!
I also found a pretty cool ambiguous crossup setup tonight for her. It's on a Counter-Hit and it needs the opponent to safe fall, but I think it's insanely good if you're not going for damage and instead looking to lock the opponent down or keep a good range.
I don't have a capture card, so the quality is disgusting. If anyone wants to re-record it, it's fine. I don't think anyone's shown this setup, so here it is. Have fun!
-FM Sway
KOF XIII: Mature Ambiguous Crossup Setup (Recorded on a Potato) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfpRcq4CND0#ws)
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I ALWAYS use heaven's gate honestly for Mature. Neomax is pretty situational and I am not a fan of her other super unless it's to punish unsafe shit people don't know or pay attention to. (such as badly spaced Andy elbow.) But even then, it has to be EXed.
What I love about heaven's gate is that startup has invincibility (the frames before she starts moving/she's hugging herself.) so for people who don't know or untrue blockstrings (Kensou cr.d>fireball for example.) screams a free punish and corner carry. This is also her only hard knockdown move.
the great thing about this that I don't see anyone doing besides me is that she gets a free mixup with ebony's tears. After Heaven's gate, backdash once, buffer Ebony's tears during the backdash, and let that fat fireball rip.
If you do the ;c version, it's a meaty that they have to block or guard roll. If they guard roll, Mature recovers quick enough to do whatever she wants for a punish. They block and it's free pressure. Be careful on who you do this on. People with EX invincibile supers (claw iori, AoF cast, Shen) can blow this up if their timing is good.
If you do the ;a version, it's more of a fakeout really since it travels really slow and will catch people off guard.
I haven't fooled around with it more but this super is really underrated at times. Mature wants to mix people up yes, but she shines so well in the corner due to her buttons. (respectively ;b for whiff pokes, ;d for stopping opponents from jumping.)
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hi guys
framedata plz?
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hi guys
framedata plz?
Here:Mature (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AsrvpuirdQzwdGM0UDlRcGozMkJBQVZES0F4Zmw1MGc&f=true&noheader=true&gid=22)
You can find that table in the tutorials section on the front page.
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...I am not a fan of her other super unless it's to punish unsafe shit people don't know or pay attention to. (such as badly spaced Andy elbow.) But even then, it has to be EXed.
But Noturnal Rites is so cool-sounding :3
It does more damage, doesn't it? st. ;c xx EX Metal Massacre -> st. ;c xx Nocturnal Rites does around 500, i think.
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I saw Thiago use the Nocturnal super at Treta last weekend. Well, most importantly the EX one.
I'm convinced that if you just want raw damage for no cost of Drive Meter, just do st.;b or st. ;c to EX Nocturnal. It did a heck of a lot of damage!
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Nocturnal Rites has some unscaled hits, right? I know for sure the EX version does. It's just hard to land those unscaled hits if your opponent's in the air.
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Nocturnal Rites has some unscaled hits, right? I know for sure the EX version does. It's just hard to land those unscaled hits if your opponent's in the air.
If I recall, only the level 1 version has an unscaled 100 damage at the end. The last 3 hits of the level 2 Nocturnal do get scaled, or are already at a fixed 30-60.
Regardless, doing it raw from a normal with no drive meter used makes the move very powerful, at least level 2 does. BUT, for the same amount of meter, I think you can do double st.;c to EX Metal Massacre link instead to push the damage higher, but of course, the link is harder. Not even Thiago could get it consistently during the pressures of tournament play.
So again, just cancelling to level 2 off a normal has the benefits of instant damage with ease of use. I for one want to use it but I'm too stubborn and want to do the fancy combos ~__~
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i'm at the point of saying do whichever you feel more comfortable with. I like cl. ;c to EX rekkas Drive cancel links. she builds enough meter and gets enough damage off it that i'm fine wasting 1 bar and half of DC bar.
One thing i'm getting pretty tired of seeing is people not punishing the light version of hcb+ ;b. People are letting Chris G get away with free chip and guard chip meter.
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Mature Combo Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfVWkWi4l_g#)
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Yo, sorta new to Mature here... the team I want her to work with puts her mid or anchor (never point)
I can do the EX/D Massacre xx cl.C link fine, but for the life of me I've all but given up on ever being able to cancel B massacre into A despair with any degree of consistency. I've studied her HD combo routes extensively lately in the hopes of finding some sort of tech in order to optimize my damage output so that my Mature can work without this particular detail, but... all I've really learned is that rekka scaling ruins the damage values for everything you can possibly do afterwards aside from Rites and Neomax, and linking EX Massacres at the start basically makes for the same total combo damage as anything else I can do. That said, I'm still looking.
...Of course, that was until a few minutes ago. In my most recent training mode grind, I actually seem to have stumbled upon the proper timing to do B massacre xx A despair via the half circle back xx forward shortcut. However, I can't seem to make it work within the HD combo yet, as for some reason when I try to do it after rekkas xx D massacre, either the despair fails to come out... or I get another rekka. Experimentation has proven that this is also possible outside of HD mode, but it occurs much less often when I'm attempting to do the cancel off a raw massacre. Can anyone explain this?
Also, the combo vid in the post just prior to this one contains another weird thing I don't get... in the combo at 2:17, the player cancels a rekka (during first hit) into D massacre and it somehow works. I was under the impression D massacre would only combo after rekkas (if the last hit is the one that puts them into the air) or the 4th hit of EX rekka (while the opponent is still grounded.) If so, how does that combo work? What is it about that sequence that allows D massacre to actually hit at that point?
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Yo, sorta new to Mature here... the team I want her to work with puts her mid or anchor (never point)
I can do the EX/D Massacre xx cl.C link fine, but for the life of me I've all but given up on ever being able to cancel B massacre into A despair with any degree of consistency. I've studied her HD combo routes extensively lately in the hopes of finding some sort of tech in order to optimize my damage output so that my Mature can work without this particular detail, but... all I've really learned is that rekka scaling ruins the damage values for everything you can possibly do afterwards aside from Rites and Neomax, and linking EX Massacres at the start basically makes for the same total combo damage as anything else I can do. That said, I'm still looking.
...Of course, that was until a few minutes ago. In my most recent training mode grind, I actually seem to have stumbled upon the proper timing to do B massacre xx A despair via the half circle back xx forward shortcut. However, I can't seem to make it work within the HD combo yet, as for some reason when I try to do it after rekkas xx D massacre, either the despair fails to come out... or I get another rekka. Experimentation has proven that this is also possible outside of HD mode, but it occurs much less often when I'm attempting to do the cancel off a raw massacre. Can anyone explain this?
Also, the combo vid in the post just prior to this one contains another weird thing I don't get... in the combo at 2:17, the player cancels a rekka (during first hit) into D massacre and it somehow works. I was under the impression D massacre would only combo after rekkas (if the last hit is the one that puts them into the air) or the 4th hit of EX rekka (while the opponent is still grounded.) If so, how does that combo work? What is it about that sequence that allows D massacre to actually hit at that point?
B Massacre into A Despair takes a lot of patience to be able to time properly. In some situations, you can do B Massacre very early and hold the button, so that the move will come out in the first frame it is allowed to. And while holding that button, you can do the motion for the A Despair.
But a lot of situations require you to time the B Massacre the minute the opponent falls, and that's really when you have no choice but to practice the sequence and improve your timing.
For the combo you asked about in that video: notice how the opponent is still in an air-juggled state. The combo starts off a counter-hit situation in the air, and the opponent does not fall to the ground.
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*stuff*
Thanks, actually I went back to grinding Mature and somehow managed to discover the timing to perform the inputs raw, as it began to produce consistent results a lot faster than trying to understand the shortcut method. Along the way I also discovered the hilarious shortcut for B Massacre xx Ebony Tears. It's kinda ridiculous to my mind that you can input the Massacre with ;dn ;df ;fd ;df ;dn ;db ;bk , hold ;a/ ;c and the projectile automatically comes out with no further directional input. I was disappointed to discover that it wasn't a full HD loop by itself (they fall just a little further each time, such that a 3rd tears will leave you unable to continue the combo) but it was easy as hell, very entertaining to watch, and it did help me gain a better understanding of where the cancel window was, which led to my becoming uber-consistent at landing the Massacre xx despair cancel, and the loop as a whole shortly thereafter.
For the combo you asked about in that video: notice how the opponent is still in an air-juggled state. The combo starts off a counter-hit situation in the air, and the opponent does not fall to the ground.
Afraid I still don't think I get it. How does the opponent being in the air when the combo starts allow D massacre to connect? Again, my current impression of D massacre is that the move is only capable of connecting with the opponent at all on 2 occasions: While the opponent is grounded (can combo from 4th EX Rekka) or during that particular instant after the last hit of a rekka (reg. or EX) that started from the ground puts the opponent into the air. I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with "Juggle state" and similar terminology, as KOF's air combos actually don't really make that much sense to me. I actually kind of hold a certain distaste for the word "juggle", as I feel it has kind of a primitive taste to it (I'm more comfortable with Guilty Gear's "Hitbox looks right=It'll hit if they can't/don't tech" way of handling things.) I just sort of view a character's moves as being able to hit at certain points, and the rule of thumb for me is that if they were too close to the ground the thing you're trying to do will whiff because it didn't come out fast enough to catch them from the height they were at, and that's why some things work and some don't. I guess having said that it'll probably be a little more difficult to explain to someone like me :(
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Afraid I still don't think I get it. How does the opponent being in the air when the combo starts allow D massacre to connect? Again, my current impression of D massacre is that the move is only capable of connecting with the opponent at all on 2 occasions: While the opponent is grounded (can combo from 4th EX Rekka) or during that particular instant after the last hit of a rekka (reg. or EX) that started from the ground puts the opponent into the air. I'm afraid I'm not too familiar with "Juggle state" and similar terminology, as KOF's air combos actually don't really make that much sense to me. I actually kind of hold a certain distaste for the word "juggle", as I feel it has kind of a primitive taste to it (I'm more comfortable with Guilty Gear's "Hitbox looks right=It'll hit if they can't/don't tech" way of handling things.) I just sort of view a character's moves as being able to hit at certain points, and the rule of thumb for me is that if they were too close to the ground the thing you're trying to do will whiff because it didn't come out fast enough to catch them from the height they were at, and that's why some things work and some don't. I guess having said that it'll probably be a little more difficult to explain to someone like me :(
Being in an air-juggle state just allows you more time to hit things, especially a 1st rekka hit to D Massacre. You said it youself, "When the opponent is grounded." Meaning if you performed the Rekka when she's on the ground, literally standing on it, your D Massacre drive cancel will not hit, simply because s/he has already recovered. Because she's already airborne when that 1st Rekka hits, you can drive cancel into D Massacre in time before s/he lands and it will hit.
Why do you think the very last hit of the 3rd Rekka into D Massacre hits on the ground? It's because the last hit puts the opponent airborne. Why wouldn't it work on, say, the 2nd to last hit of the 3rd Rekka? Because the opponent was not airborne.
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^ Okay, been sorta on-off with this in my head, but I think I can finally phrase my query in a form we both understand...
What confuses me is that my idea of when D massacre will connect on an aerial opponent is based on one thing: The instances I previously mentioned (rekkas/EX rekkas, I.E her bnb combos) are both instances where the very first attack that connects once the opponent becomes airborne is the D massacre. In other words, I'm not understanding the correlation between what you've said about the combo starting with them already in the air and the fact that the player in the video seemingly managed to re-create the exact juggle state that occurs after the last hit of a grounded Rekka/EX Rekka chain... and not only accomplished this despite them already being airborne, but performed this cancel from a single hit of her first rekka and caused the D massacre to not only come out properly (she performed the attack instead of just running to nowhere) but the slash actually hit them. Given that this is mind-boggling to me, clearly I don't understand the exact properties of Mature's "juggles" very well, never mind the game system's method of determining how "juggles" work. (I can't use the word "juggle" without putting it in quotation marks, it just feels... dirty for some reason)
See, I do a metric ****ton of "homebrew" lab work when I commit to learning a character. In attempting to discover their possible combo routes, I spend many hours not grinding the stuff I already know works, but trying various things just to see what stuff "works" and what doesn't. Mature is one of my mains, so the amount of time I've spent on her in this way is considerable. However, aside from her bnb (D massacre just after rekkas) every point I've ever experimented with involving D massacre results in either Mature not even performing the actual attack after inputting the move (she just runs forward and does nothing, they fall to the ground) or she throws out the slash too late (and they fall to the ground) The same applies to EX massacre, but for some reason it'll hit at odd points such as if you DC into it off the second B massacre in her 1 drive bnb. This in itself violates the established principle I had previously thought to be the reason why D massacre never works anywhere else: I was under the impression that D massacre "works" after rekkas (and nowhere else) because the Massacre is the first move executed after the opponent becomes airborne. Clearly this idea is false, as if were true the combo in the vid (as well as my EX experiment) wouldn't work. However, the erasure of that understanding doesn't allow me to connect the dots and understand why that combo in the video "works".
I guess it's strange for there to be a player like me who goes all in on the trial/error method of determining what combos the characters I play are capable of without having a very firm grasp of how the game's system determines whether a move will "juggle" or not. That's why I found the combo in that video so confusing, because it revealed something to me that I had already determined to be impossible! This one combo practically spat in the face of my research. Obviously I'm not angry that it's there (far from it, it looks kind of useful and might serve as an aid in my attempts to further optimize my Mature HD damage) but it comes off as quite the surprise to me, given that it defies one of the basic rules I had established in attempting to build Mature combos from the ground up. As such, I'm hoping to gain a better understanding of why this particular setup works, in order to figure out how to replicate the result (connecting D massacre in combos at points other than after grounded rekkas) and use it in further combo experiments.
Edit: Just actually watched the rest of that vid... so not only does this player use it in other combos, but does it repeatedly, going so far as to connect multiple D massacres in one combo while the opponent is airborne. I'm just as insanely interested in learning how exactly this is possible as what moves/timing I need to figure out in order to do it myself. It looks like this makes her HD combos at the 1-2 bar mark worthwhile, instead of sub-par compared to most characters (my current 2-bar Mature HD variants only deal 650 damage from a low ;b confirm, they should deal 700 like everyone else's) so clearly there's something here I need to figure out.
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I don't really understand your question about her qcb D but her qcb D has a ton of startup time so you'll have to cancel the last hit of her third rekka as soon as possible to ensure it connects. If you do it too slow, she'll probably just run forward. There isn't any special property to her qcb B/D. It will always hit a juggled opponent. If you're whiffing the qcb D, it's probably because you're doing it too slow or it's impossible from the height the opponent is at.
For the position of her qcb D to hit, you kind of have to run under the opponent. As in it feels like the opponent is dropping onto your attack instead of you running directly in front of the opponent.
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Hey folks, just cooked up my first 2 bar HD for 700 off a crouch confirm (cr. ;b x 3, HD) I feel like it even does a noteworthy job of keeping a lid on the timing-intensive inputs to some degree, and it upgrades to a 3 bar with a solid extra 100 damage with no extra effort. That said, one cannot ignore that Mature is never anything short of an exceptionally demanding woman... so this is still pretty hard, not sure if I'll be able to start landing it against people. But without further ado:
Confirm xx (HD) cl. ;c, EX Rekka x4 HDC ;d massacre, cl. ;c Rekka x3 (all hits) HDC ;d massacre, ;b massacre, ;b massacre HDC ;a despair* Rekka (1 hit) HDC ;d massacre, Rekka (One input**) HDC ;a despair, Nocturnal Rites
*This input needs to be tight, late enough for the following rekka to work (the ;d massacre will always combo from this point) but as early as possible anyway. The key factor in determining whether or not the Rites' crucial last hit will connect is how much time passes after this despair hits, thus the variance in the ** section.
**If you cancel this rekka into despair on the first hit, the despair can hit kinda late and the super should work. If you cancel from the 3rd hit of the rekka, the despair has to hit early and the super might not work. As such, the 2nd hit of the Rekka is a fairly safe middle ground. With the above in mind it follows that the super input should always be buffered so Rites will come out as soon as Mature recovers from the despair, otherwise there might not be enough "juggle time" remaining for the last hit to connect. If you're not sure you can fit the rekka+despair, going into the super after the ;d massacre is a surefire confirm for 20 or so less damage.
What I like about this variant is that none of the timing restrictions come in multiples, and are separated enough to semi-comfortably confirm each one: There's only one cl. ;c link (IMO the EX rekka one is easier, since the rekka inputs give you a bit of slack to feel out your timing before synchronizing with the 4th one) a 3rd rekka xx ;d massacre cancel, only one ;b massacre into despair (with the followup input also being the only tight one) and there's wiggle room with the ender to fall back on if you're not sure you hit the despair just right. Thus, it should be possible to keep your rhythm and land the various other parts once you're past the link. I haven't tested this against an actual opponent yet, but I'll report back with my results after my local weekly tomorrow.
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I recently got a good idea from AirLancer's recent Mature combo video using EX rekkas in her HD combos:
http://youtu.be/pg5cqKa07OM?t=35s (http://youtu.be/pg5cqKa07OM?t=35s)
Now, I switched her far D with cl.C after activation (I had a little trouble getting far D, even though I knew it was more damage) and I altered the end a bit substituting her Nocturnal Rites (qcfx2+P) with Heaven's Gate (qcb~hcf+K), which got me 737 damage. When I tried it out a few times, I got 777 damage once, but I'm not sure why or how. This is the combo notated:
(start mid-screen) j.C, cl.C (HDC) cl.C, qcb+AC+x5, (HDC), qcb+D (wait), (qcb+P (1) (HDC), qcb+D) x4, qcb~hcf+K = 737 damage.
Without the j.C, you can get around 705 which you can use as a punish combo. Off a cr.B, st.B starter into HD, I got around 632 damage. It's not too tough, just gotta remember to drive cancel the last hit from the EX rekka into qcb+D quickly for they can stay juggled, then wait a bit and hit them with a delayed qcb+P for the qcb+D won't miss.
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The way I get the far D is when I activate HD, I hold back so that Mature doesn't auto-dash forwards.
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The way I get the far D is when I activate HD, I hold back so that Mature doesn't auto-dash forwards.
Yeah, I knew that was the way which is similar to how you get the far D from EX Iori's HD combo (qcf+P, qcf~hcb+P, NeoMax) but I always fugg it up, so I decided to use something easier for me. LOL.
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So are there any known 4 meter 100% combos with Mature (that aren't off a counter-hit j.CD or anti-air despair or something)?
Well, here's one...
More Mature Stuff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8gdQs4dMao#ws)
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It just occurred to me that I didn't report back like I said last week... totally forgot it, my bad. I only got like 3 chances to go into the combo, one of those times I landed it flawlessly, the other two I botched the confirm (though one of those times I picked it up and completed the combo) I've been practicing it since and have gotten really consistent with hitting each part of the combo comfortably. I really like it, it feels like the go-to 2 bar combo that any serious Mature player should have ready in their toolbox.
Major props to Airlancer, good stuff man. Have you tried your combos off cr.B confirms? (btw guys, cl.B is the bane of good Mature combos... players looking to optimize their damage should usually stagger their cr.Bs in order to confirm into st.B) A low hit is your most likely confirm into HD outside of a punish situation (cl.c is gonna be the starter 99% of the time there, not j.c) so... yeah, I'm curious about the numbers look like there. Btw feel free to try out the setup in my above post, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the EX rekka x4 HDC qcb+D, cl.C variant.
On another note, has anyone here experimented with HD resets in match play? I.E confirm into HD, then intentionally do a crossup dp+A early in the combo? As one can imagine, the qcb+B dp+A loop does absurd damage without the scaling from rekkas, leading to a solid extra 700 meterless(!!!) damage for hardly any effort aside from timing the crossup dp+A right in order to be able to land the first qcb+B. I'm thinking I'm gonna try this tonight for kicks, we'll see how it goes...
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Further refinements...
871 damage 3 meters HD
j.C cl.C HDC, s.D, qcb+AC x 5 DC qcb+D, qcb+B, qcb+B DC dp+A~A, qb+B DC dp+A~A, qcb+A DC qcb+D qcb+A x 3 qcbhcf+AC
2nd qcb+A of the last set of 3 qcb+As supposed to whiff.
889 damage 3 meters HD
j.C cl.C HDC s.D, qcb+AC x 4 DC qcb+D, cl.C, qcb+A x 3 DC qcb+D, qcb+B, qcb+B DC dp+A, qcb+A (3 hits) DC qcb+D, qcb+B qcbhcf+AC
Even more Mature Stuff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abGBeHdTk30#ws)
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Not bad man, it's because I saw your videos back then that I was first inspired to upgrade my Mature combos.
Check this one out, it happens at 9:21 (can't remember how to timestamp the url...)
hella set (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpGQBarufEo#ws)
734 dmg off a low confirm for 2 bars, full corner carrry. Ironically though... it wasn't getting this combo down that made me feel like my Mature has become much scarier to deal with. Recently I've figured out how to actually level up my fundamentals, and in the process I've truly begun on the path to eliminating my old scrubby habits for good!