Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => Character Discussion => Ralf Jones => Topic started by: bigvador on December 27, 2011, 08:58:57 AM
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I wanted to see what people think about his match ups against certain characters.
i find it hard to fight dou lon more then anybody cause he can slip away kinda easily plus lons mix ups are so good it throws me off balance (more then lons CD when ur getting up).
also benimaru his qcf A makes it extremely hard to get in plus he has a DP which makes me not want to jump
i think the easyest match up with ralf maybe clark (for me at least) or any grappler for that matter only cause i found out a few good things to stay away from there grabs: cr. A x2 qcf A and st. C (2nd hit), far D or far C into valcan punch
i had a chance to test it online b4 my router busted and it seem like it worked for the most part but the clarks i played didnt hop.
i wanted to know if anybody could find some damaging combos from valcan punch. i noticed only the EX valcan punch can cancel but the EX is pretty powerful.
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i think the easyest match up with ralf maybe clark (for me at least) or any grappler for that matter only cause i found out a few good things to stay away from there grabs: cr. A x2 qcf A and st. C (2nd hit), far D or far C into valcan punch
Clark is a tough match up for me. I found his auto guard grab makes it hard for me to stay in close. I find myself zoning him with normals and blowbacks the majority of the time. Or baiting with jump A into qcf A for his grab.
How does your first combo help you stay away from grabs? From what I've experienced his autoguard grab guards through whole strings.
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I feel he has a tough time with people with higher than average hops that can get over his hop CD and st.D, and people with fast hops in general. I feel like he wins the footsie game against a lot of people but really no other character wants to be in that range anyway. He gets in trouble with rushdown just as well.
Zoners are bad too, but I don't think it's as bad as people might think. st.c is fast enough and far enough to keep people in check about spamming, and his run speed is decent enough to play that game.
He fares well against the grapplers, but not vice imo since she doesn't need to be close 24/7.
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He doesn't really do well against Clark either due to the fact that Clark has Ralfs normals now and he has the B argentina back breacker with guard points so any careless hop, jump or standing attacks can have you snatched away and then picked up off the ground if Clark has Drive meter to do it. To add to that, Ralf's other good tools (dive punch mix-ups, qcf+AC guard points) are kind of nulified by the B version of the back breaker.
So essentially he doesn't do well against Vice, in my oppinion he doesn't do well against Clark, according to you any one with a floaty jump to get around his j.CD is going to give him a hard time (which I agree with) so you can put Raiden in that group then and well, Ralf's buttons aren't as good as Diamon's so in reality Grapplers BEAT Ralf and by a fair bit I think.
Zoners beat ralf (as you have said) not because they can fireball pressure him but because he can't really challenge them. People like to say Ralfs buttons are good but they aren't that great, cr.C has nice range but really isn't as fast as it should be for it to become a good poking tool. Far standing D is okay but also too slow, far standing C does a bit of a chunk but it isn't enough to scare people into not doing things and even if they stop jumping or pressing buttons because they are afraid of the back fist, what is ralf really going to do? He doesn't have a command grab so they can sit there and block, if you run for the standard throw they can break it and even if you do catch them then they can tech roll the hit and you have to work your way in again which isn't that easy for ralf (due to size and speed). Okay so because the throw isn't a good option what do you do then? Run in and try to guard break? Well most strings will end in the qcf+C but that is minus frames on block, yes Ralf is safe but the mix-up games are not in his favour so you have worked your way in, made the opponent scared enough to not press buttons, gone for a run in block string and then Ralf is at a disadvantage.
Ralf doesn't do well against rush down because they can mix him up and he has no solid way of keeping them out.
Ralf is arguably the worst character in the game for a reason, and that's because his traits just don't stack up in his favour. The risk you run when you try anything doesn't equate to the rewards he gets if he gambles correctly.
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Ralf is arguably the worst character in the game for a reason, and that's because his traits just don't stack up in his favour. The risk you run when you try anything doesn't equate to the rewards he gets if he gambles correctly.
out of everything u said this is the most ridiculous thing u said but i will (and can) agree with about have the stuff u said
With clark u have 2 options empty jump or jump CD qcf A or C just because he has dont mean hes god like also qcb AC is a really good to for a anti air u can use qcb C but ur timing has to be good therefor he does have good anti air options but at a cost.
givin all the tools ralf have he can easily keep grappelrs at bay vice is the only problem because she can CD into EX grapple so if that stops people coming in of jumping in or anything then thats that persons problem.
what u was talking about when it comes from zoning characters is the same problem that ralf would have (exept a grappler) the fact that he can knock away fire balls give him a advantage unless they shoot it slow then a different story. i think you would have to break down y he "cant" or having a hard time beating a zoning character
the only thing i can say about rush down is become a rush down cause really thats what ralf is plus he has good pokes so that really adds to his game
i think the easyest match up with ralf maybe clark (for me at least) or any grappler for that matter only cause i found out a few good things to stay away from there grabs: cr. A x2 qcf A and st. C (2nd hit), far D or far C into valcan punch
How does your first combo help you stay away from grabs? From what I've experienced his autoguard grab guards through whole strings.
sorry it took me a while to answer ur question for my first combo if somebody wanted to D SAB u in the middle of ur block string then u would beat it out its risky if ur not solid with it and with auto guard i only use 2 options and thats jump CD qcf A (this is a block string in the air) of just empty jump
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I think you might be looking at him from the wrong perspective, robo, because it seems that you think that ralf should be opening people up, when really his tools are designed for him to be a wall, imo. You are right in saying that his pressure is lacking, but that's not where his strength lies.
even if they stop jumping or pressing buttons because they are afraid of the back fist, what is ralf really going to do?
I don't know about you but if I get someone to stop pressing buttons/hopping/whatever that means I put a dent in what they were trying to do.
if you run for the standard throw they can break it and even if you do catch them then they can tech roll the hit
Not sure how this makes normal throws bad...yes, his lack of command grab keeps him low, but at the same time he has beastly frametraps with close c which can confirm into hd and qcf+c which is safe and confirms into knockdowns.
He is definitely low, but it's really not because he has to gamble. Even the gimmicky dive punch is safe as hell, and the only things that's really a gamble is ex qcf+p
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I also have to say something about this
far standing C does a bit of a chunk but it isn't enough to scare people into not doing things
How fast does it need to be? It's certainly fast enough to stop far hops. It's biggest weakness is that people can crouch under it, but it takes decent reaction and a read to punish it from the range that ralf should be using it.
Far standing D is okay but also too slow
far d doesn't need to be fast because it has hella active frames. I've traded with so much stuff when pressing it too early. It is an amazing normal that is basically a giant hitbox that exists in front of him for a while.
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As other people said, Ralph has a tough time against zoners, but anyone who can't dp him in the face has problems I find. The hitbox on almost all of his arial normals and cd are incredible and straight up beat or at worse trade in your favor if timed correctly on wake up. As well, if they can't zone you, you're going to get a lot of 3a's on people jumping, which gives you an untechable knockdown and a free jumpin/momentum reversal
But opening people up isnt ralph's MO. He has really incredible normals and he does a ton of guard chip, if you bank on playing a really solid footsie game and not get mauled, you will win a battle of attrition - much of the time unscathed. When you get an antiair you can lay out some solid and relatively safe pressure, and when you actually open someone up, you can make it hurt a lot. I find that whenever I play really good with Ralph, it never looks pretty at all haha
Ralph's biggest weakness to me is that his close c whiffs on like half the cast unless you're right on top of them(like from a jumpin), and instead of doing a ton of damage you get whiffpunished to death for it
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Ralf is arguably the worst character in the game for a reason, and that's because his traits just don't stack up in his favour. The risk you run when you try anything doesn't equate to the rewards he gets if he gambles correctly.
out of everything u said this is the most ridiculous thing u said but i will (and can) agree with about have the stuff u said
So you think I'm partially correct but you don't come to the same conclusion, okay.
With clark u have 2 options empty jump or jump CD qcf A or C just because he has dont mean hes god like also qcb AC is a really good to for a anti air u can use qcb C but ur timing has to be good therefor he does have good anti air options but at a cost.
I can't quite understand what you have written here but essentially what I'm getting is that Ralf has 2 EFFECTIVE options against Clark, empty jump (which you really should not be doing against a grab character) or j.CD into dive (which is reasonable). you shouldn't empty jump against Clark because the risk doesn't equal the reward as the risk is too high. Empty jump (and not hop) can be anti-aired by anything but lets presume the guy is a reasonable player and decides to do the option select st.C so if you jump in you get hit and if you land he gets the grab. So that's not very good, also once ralf is knocked down his only option seems to be qcf+AC but that has armour from the 2nd frame I believe, meaning ANY meaty attack beats you. So lets presume the guys timing is off, well then he will break your throw and if you press buttons he will CH you. Alright then, so lets presume you read this and do qcf+AC to take the hit and hit him back, well that's a no as well because he can buffer in the B back breaker every time and he will take your hit, your 1 bar and he will thank you by throwing you up in the air and giving you very little that you can do off the ground.
Okay now lets go and look at the positives, you hit the j.CD and you knock him away or he blocked it and ate the dive punch, well he is pushed out which is good but you risked taking possibly 10-25% damage so that you might be able to do around 10% with the odds being in his favour of guessing correctly and with better follow-up benifits.
qcb+C is not a solid anti-air, it has to be used on prediction and not on reaction unless they jump from full screen. Qcb+AC is a good anti-air however it is not reliable as it depends on a comodity that can run out and that ralf does not generate that well and so by definition it isn't reliable, it's good, just not reliable.
givin all the tools ralf have he can easily keep grappelrs at bay vice is the only problem because she can CD into EX grapple so if that stops people coming in of jumping in or anything then thats that persons problem.
So you believe Vice is a problem, okay, I think Clark is a problem seeing as he has your exact same buttons apart from j.D (and his is better), st.D (once again, Clark's is better) and st.CD (Ralf's is definately better) and he has the tools to go around Ralf's. Diamon just has better buttons than Ralf so I wouldn't even bother comparing and Raiden fits into that previous category of high jumpers are hard because they can get round his jump/hop CD lock down.
what u was talking about when it comes from zoning characters is the same problem that ralf would have (exept a grappler) the fact that he can knock away fire balls give him a advantage unless they shoot it slow then a different story. i think you would have to break down y he "cant" or having a hard time beating a zoning character
Okay, if Ralf is getting rid of fireballs (like with his qcb+P) that's great but what hapopens when you get it wrong (and you will eventually take at least chip damage) Ralf has to go on the offensive and he doesn't have the tools to open people up anymore.
the only thing i can say about rush down is become a rush down cause really thats what ralf is plus he has good pokes so that really adds to his game
No, Ralf is not rush down, he doesn't have the tools for to open people up. Shen is rush down, Iori is rush down, Ralf is not. Ralf can do close range zoning half decently and Rush down okay but he does nothing that well.
i think the easyest match up with ralf maybe clark (for me at least) or any grappler for that matter only cause i found out a few good things to stay away from there grabs: cr. A x2 qcf A and st. C (2nd hit), far D or far C into valcan punch
How does your first combo help you stay away from grabs? From what I've experienced his autoguard grab guards through whole strings.
sorry it took me a while to answer ur question for my first combo if somebody wanted to D SAB u in the middle of ur block string then u would beat it out its risky if ur not solid with it and with auto guard i only use 2 options and thats jump CD qcf A (this is a block string in the air) of just empty jump
I'm really not sure what you mean by this last bit.
I think you might be looking at him from the wrong perspective, robo, because it seems that you think that ralf should be opening people up, when really his tools are designed for him to be a wall, imo. You are right in saying that his pressure is lacking, but that's not where his strength lies.
Oh I agree, he isn't a pressure character, he is a close range zoner, it's just that I think his close range zoning isn't good enough and so you are forced to rush in a bit but then he as very few ways of opening up the opponent.
even if they stop jumping or pressing buttons because they are afraid of the back fist, what is ralf really going to do?
I don't know about you but if I get someone to stop pressing buttons/hopping/whatever that means I put a dent in what they were trying to do.
And what if that is exactly what they were trying to do? Ralf can't fireball from the otherside of the screen so he has to get close and if you don't press buttons he has to come in for jumping mix-ups or grabs but as we both know he isn't a rush down character so if you force him to do something he is crap at, your character and not Ralf, is the winner.
if you run for the standard throw they can break it and even if you do catch them then they can tech roll the hit
Not sure how this makes normal throws bad...yes, his lack of command grab keeps him low, but at the same time he has beastly frametraps with close c which can confirm into hd and qcf+c which is safe and confirms into knockdowns.
He doesn't have BEASTLY frame traps, he barely has any, I think his CD is +1 but he has nothing that fast apart from sweep or back fist to capitalise with. If you are hit by back fist that is all you are getting and if you sweep they are going to tech roll and that's all your getting. Also frame traps are great if you can pressure or scare people into pressing buttons, you want to press buttons because something is coming but you can't because you are at negative frames, Ralf doesn't have the tools to make you want to press buttons and so frame advantage means very little. His st.C is okay but the range is terrible and as I remember you can only cancel into special moves after the 1st hit and he has no + frame specials so unless you link cr.B into st.C for a hit confirm you aren't going to be able to use any supposed frame traps off a 1hit hit-confirm.
He is definitely low, but it's really not because he has to gamble. Even the gimmicky dive punch is safe as hell, and the only things that's really a gamble is ex qcf+p
I'm not saying he is low because he has to gamble, every character has to gamble, everytime you hop in to the opponent you are gambling that they don't press buttons before you do. The problem is that as a close range zoner he doesn't have tools to scare you, he has to play the opponents game and then keep them out, but not too far out. If anyone wants to beat Ralf what they essentially need to do is stop his jump ins and play dry and there really isn't that much he can do against it.
I would address your second message mate, you've put some sound ideas across but I'm feeling a bit poorly and doing this mammouth amount of writing has drained me a bit.
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well i would say u put up a fight but every situation that u put ralf in i was in and successful and i played god like people online (no lag) shonuff i didnt save the replays but no matter how bad u think he is i still find him at high tier
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I would say you can't judge anything online with any seriousness.
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@Robocop WTF are you talking about? matter of fact....who are you to come on the Ralph thread to bash on the character? I know Bigvador personally and he knows his matchs~ unlike you who classifies Ralf as a "Close range Zoning" Character...WTF IS THAT? just stop now before you embarrass yourself anymore. If you were actually trying to understand what he was saying you would know when he ment empty jump he obviously meant hop....get that shit out of here...and im not about to pick apart that WALL of text you posted up there. Worse of all you make yourself look like a scrub by saying all this....no belittling the character but make yourself look stupid. Im sorry but when i read this....i just facepalmed myself saying people like this do exist. its obvious that your either a SRK Troll or w/e with only 4 post...so im going to leave that as is....so before you think about replying to this...know this...I don't ONLY play KOF so please be smart about what you say. because I will Bust you out on ANY BS you come up with....KNOW THAT!
anyways back to the Betty thread~
EDIT: There's no need for personal attacks on the forums. Stay on topic, please. - FataCon
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You are right, I only have 4 posts to my name here with this actually being my 5th so you have no reason to believe me however, if you check out Orochinagi and check out the Mai, King, Leona, RALF or Clark threads you'll see that I have done some practice with the game before console release to help the community. In addition I believe I was the one that found the most efficent kill combo with Ralf (the one that I posted in the combo section) which is 80-90% wall carry (so it works almost anywhere) and only uses 3 bars to kill. That wasn't Dune from Japan or B.A.L.A. or Kane 317, that was me.
Additionally for me to know bigvador wrote jump but meant hop in a game where there is a jump and a hop would require me to know the person and the way they speak, that's why I have said I don't quite understand.
I thank FataCon for trying to keep things calm here and I won't rise to inflamatory language but I will say that your friend bigvador hasn't got pissed off at all and just said that I put up a good fight but his stuff seems to work for him. He wasn't offended or petulant he just said it worked but you seemed to get annoyed for him, my suggestion is don't because neither of us are angry and we are just talking tactics.
We are allowed to disagree.
P.S. I'm not an SRK troll, I don't actually go into the forums on that site or have an account as I mostly play games that aren't regularly talked about there (Guilty Gear, KoF13, Vampire Savior, Garou: Mark of the Wolves, Street Fighter 2). You would find me on Dustloop, Orochinagi and Neoempire though.
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K' is a bitch, i hate this Matchup so godamn much.
Robert is really frustrating too.
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Fireball wise, K is probably easier to deal with because he only has one speed of fireball so there is no issue about identifying what type of fireball is coming, you know which one it will be because there is only 1 speed as I remember (I could be wrong on this though, haven't played against a K recently). Set the dummy up to do En Trigger from full screen and just make sure you can get the timing down to destroy it with the qcb+P moves and then start practiceing doing that from a little closer and slowly move your way in.
The problem with K' is when he moves in close because his buttons are just really good, Ralf's are good too but in the really annoying area inside the far st.C range (I say inside because there is that optimal range for the far st.C which is just at it's tip) it's hard to deal with him apart from being really patient and using cr.D smartly but if you have meter alot of poorer K's will like to press loads of button or do En triggers with either follow-up without looking so that's where a nice qcf+AC comes in very handy.
You want to pressure him at that optimal far st.C kind of range because you can hop CD as well and keep him blocking for a while but don't over use hops. Poor K's will just guess with dragons sometimes so if you overuse a hop CD you will get tagged and then he will be at the advantage.
If he clams up than you will need to use run in throw, it's not a great tactic but you have to use it with Ralf because he has a hard time opening up K (that is if they aren't just spamming buttons).
As far as Robert goes, I still don't know how to fight that one properly, Rober has too many options for Ralf to deal with so I'll have to formulate something on that one later.
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^^^
well K' is tough coz after you have to block his fireball (in the right distance) he gets a free jump-in, and all his buttons are Leagues faster than Ralf's, especially in the air. And frametrapping that fucker has been reeeally hard so far coz of his c.B
there's also stuff like his small ass hitbox making jumping/hoping in on him even harder (was already hard coz of his DP and s.A).
as for Robert, he's a pain coz of his fireball mostly (being high enough to stop hops) and his amazing DP that beats everything. he can zone Ralf out very easy and it gets really annoying ~_~
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I play the k' matchup a lot, and ralf gets a lot of mileage out of far C. Especially if they aren't jumping in with CD. You don't want to be anywhere near him where his normals/fireball is effective. His close range blocked fireball > c.B frame trap tears ralf apart. Most of the damage I get is from s.C or s.D - outpoke the shit out of him, and try to bait out dp's as much as possible.
Cliffs: stay at the tip of s.C/D range and press buttons to preemptively stop hop pressure untill he starts j.CDing. Ex burning hammer can help relieve pressure, but dont abuse it; you need meter to kill him off as quick as possible before he overwhelms you, since you're not going to get a lot of openings. Don't try to engage at close range if at all possible
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alright noted.
what about hop happy Kyo/Iori? that jumping d+C is ripping me apart lately, especially that it crosses up in a very funky way. same with iori and his j.C/j.b+B.
Idk how to get people hopping all day off of me with Ralf it seems, his jab goes fuckin nowhere and hammer is usually too slow, I've had some success with the C explosion but thats just preemptive stuff u cant do it on reaction or anything like that.
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alright noted.
what about hop happy Kyo/Iori? that jumping d+C is ripping me apart lately, especially that it crosses up in a very funky way. same with iori and his j.C/j.b+B.
Idk how to get people hopping all day off of me with Ralf it seems, his jab goes fuckin nowhere and hammer is usually too slow, I've had some success with the C explosion but thats just preemptive stuff u cant do it on reaction or anything like that.
basically with ralf you need to constantly be adjusting your spacing. characters like k', iori and kyo all have pretty great DPs(iori needs meter though) so you can't stop their pressure by applying your own relentlessly. you get a lot of mobility options in kof13, so you really just need to stay at a safe distance. easier said than done, of course - but its essential. if you're locked in a close range situations with these kinds of characters, you're going to get eaten alive. the best way to stop hop pressure is s.A, its quick and it will at least give you some breathing room
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The only problem with that being (at least in K's case) you really don't want to be hit with a j.CD seeing as he has a couple of juggle anywhere moves. Also if you have blocked a j.CD from any of those characters you really don't want to be pressing buttons against a hop because you are in serious amounts of block stun, better to guard and CD counter them away. Also in the case of Iori and Kyo, because they have moves that hit from behind you need to confirm that they are indeed hoping and not jumping so you need to delay that st.A a little. If you don't delay the st.A they may well just jump over your head instead of hoping in to you and hit you with j.d+C (for Kyo) or j.b+B(is that the right notation for Iori's back kick? Or is it b+BD?) either way, once they get in CD counter is your friend for so many reasons it's not funny.
If you do run out of meter stay very mobile so they can't pin you down.
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My problem is I am having a difficult time shutting down my cousin's Ralf, consistently, :'( ! My cousin uses Ralf's Jump D as an instant overhead and it seems to have ridiculous priority! For instance, I'll be in the air, sometimes clearly above his Ralf, and he'll jump and his Jump D will usually stuff whatever I threw out, even if it was executed before his Jump D! Also, Ralf seems to recover quickly from his Gatling charge attack even when I'm using Clark and react with my Gatling attack, yet he is able to block mine and counter with another Gatling attack and then drive cancel into another special and then super cancel for tons of damage,
My staple characters always include Leona in the line up, usually as anchor, and I usually take his Ralf out(he usually places Ralf second on his team)however, he usually gets to my Leona and one mistake means less health to deal with his anchor, which happens to be "Mr. Karate" of all characters! He's insane in itself, but I can handle his Mr. Karate, just have to be patient, but Ralf, I'm really having trouble getting around his short hop Jump D's(and just Jump D's, period)and the recovery on some of his moves! And his poking game can be troubling, and WTH is up with his priority?!
Ugh, any help would be appreciated and I apologize again if I posted this in the wrong thread,
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Lol... If ralf does gatling you can punish him on block with a full combo... Specially clark can command grab punish him easily... Hop D is an instant overhead so u just have to stuff it before it comes out or block it...
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Lol... If ralf does gatling you can punish him on block with a full combo... Specially clark can command grab punish him easily... Hop D is an instant overhead so u just have to stuff it before it comes out or block it...
LOL, that was actually how I reacted in that split-second! I figured, I have the same move and I'm all charged, so this'll hit and I can Super Cancel into his EX Super! But, alas, he was able to block my Gatling Attack, much to my suprise and I was punished, severly, lol!
And the problem with the Jump D is that he mixes up the short hop D with low normals, so I'm constantly blocking high and low and end up getting it by one or the other! I just have to learn which normal I can use to stuff his Jump D, early!
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Lol... If ralf does gatling you can punish him on block with a full combo... Specially clark can command grab punish him easily... Hop D is an instant overhead so u just have to stuff it before it comes out or block it...
LOL, that was actually how I reacted in that split-second! I figured, I have the same move and I'm all charged, so this'll hit and I can Super Cancel into his EX Super! But, alas, he was able to block my Gatling Attack, much to my suprise and I was punished, severly, lol!
And the problem with the Jump D is that he mixes up the short hop D with low normals, so I'm constantly blocking high and low and end up getting it by one or the other! I just have to learn which normal I can use to stuff his Jump D, early!
if using leona and ur goin air 2 air with him then u should use j.B since its straight ahead but if ur on the ground and he throws out j.D early u should b able 2 grab
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No you can do j.D or c.D mix-up from outside of any grab range... Its awesome... you can even do cr.D, qcf+C and frame trap with cr.D or j.D... Also j.D then j.C+D, air qcf+A... If you score a KD then you safe jump j.C+D by itself... If they block it, then you get a true block string mix-up of cr.B/D or j.D...
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wait this is a ralf thread y r we talkin bout leona
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Haha... I'm talking about Ralf... All those can be done anywhere but in the corner they are easy to setup...
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I am glad that j. CD to J.qcf A is a block string it makes applying air pressure much easyer but i do wish he can do j.D into j.qcf A but i guess that would have been to good for him. using j.A aint all that bad tho
i didnt kno u can do j.D after qcf.C (when blocked) that a block string??? do it connect if ur at max range with cr.D