Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tanner on January 07, 2012, 12:41:08 AM
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Here's a list of tier charts from top players around the world:
http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/bbs/messages/13335.shtml# (http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/bbs/messages/13335.shtml#)
-Kane317
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I'm making this thread because the other one got closed over a ridiculous argument.
But Tanner, it's too early for tier lists and this game is very balanced, herp derp there is no reason for a tier lists thread.
People need to understand the basic concept of these threads. Tier lists are a great starting point for discussion about character's weaknesses and strong points. Any one with half a brain knows that tier lists are opinions of players and not set in stone. They are supposed to be discussed, questioned and frequently changed.
Anyone with a weird personal issues about tier lists please keep it out of this thread.
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This is my early tier list:
http://tiny.cc/u7uzi (http://tiny.cc/u7uzi)
Each character in the same horizontal row I consider roughly the same tier (i.e. Robert is not necessarily better than Benimaru, but he is more all-purpose). Anything below the center horizontal line is mid tier, not low tier.
My experience is limited to online and some matchups like Chin are a little hard to judge (not many Chin players). I'll probably feel completely different about this list in a few months.
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I'm surprised you have King where she is. What do you think of her that would cause you to place her so high? Above the likes of K' and Claw Iori at that. And Robert the best?
EDIT:
My experience is limited to online
Oh. Zoning characters like King would be tough to face online. If this really is all of your experience then it makes sense now.
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Yeah, ya' gotta' take online as it is right now with a grain of salt. Hell, I know you can do Clark's B SAB on wakeup but online is another story and it will get beaten out by pretty much any regular attack regardless of how you time it.
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I'm surprised you have King where she is. What do you think of her that would cause you to place her so high? Above the likes of K' and Claw Iori at that. And Robert the best?
I don't think you read my post. Robert isn't the best, he's just the most all-purpose of my high tier. Robert has more options than any other character on the top row. That's why he's all the way to the right of all-purpose. But as I said everyone in the same horizontal row I consider in the same tier, some are just more difficult to play or have less options than others. It doesn't mean the options they -do- have aren't good enough to compete with the more well-rounded high tiers.
Also the reason I put King where she is because she has great control of the screen at any position. Her zoning is problematic but that's just part of her package. She has great hitconfirms, easy and decently damaging drive cancels, high priority on tornado kick vs just about anything in the air and it can be made relatively safe with proper spacing. Getting in on King is almost as hard as getting in on Ash and when I do get in I have to constantly be afraid of ex trap shot and the easy drive cancel shenanigans that follow. Her normals are also very good.
This is all just my opinion but she's one of the most problematic characters for me to deal with and it's not really because of her zoning.
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Oh. Zoning characters like King would be tough to face online. If this really is all of your experience then it makes sense now.
er..King is pretty up there offline too. zoning would give her a slight edge for it being online but it's not taking away anything she already has. zoning is good but its not why she's probably in the top characters.
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I would definitely put her in the "has weaknesses" quadrant. Just because it's hard to get your opponent off you without meter. She has no good reliable reversals without it. In such a offense-oriented game, not having a regular invincible move is a weakness.
I did read your post, it's just that whoever is higher on the x and y axis means he/she is the best, even if that isn't what you intended.
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Also the reason I put King where she is because she has great control of the screen at any position. Her zoning is problematic but that's just part of her package. She has great hitconfirms, easy and decently damaging drive cancels, high priority on tornado kick vs just about anything in the air and it can be made relatively safe with proper spacing. Getting in on King is almost as hard as getting in on Ash and when I do get in I have to constantly be afraid of ex trap shot and the easy drive cancel shenanigans that follow. Her normals are also very good.
I'm not going to knock on her, but I played her since arcade so I'll just note a few things:
- Her drive cancels are relatively weak. Midscreen drive cancels don't lead to much damage on their own without spending some super meter. Even her her Trap Shot > Tornado Kick HD loop does subpar damage thanks to damage scaling due to the number of hits.
- Tornado Kick (all versions) is a terrible anti-air. Even if you bait a jump by throwing Venom Strikes, even an EX Tornado Kick will get beaten by a lot of jump-ins. It's best left to combos, using the D version to poke in neutral, or punishing roll attempts while zoning.
- King and Ash have very different zoning games. King can zone from more positions due to having aerial projectiles. Not only that, but Ash has an actual anti-air. Ash can make better use of projectile recovery if an opponent jumps at him, he can just Nivose. Not only does King have more recovery time on her projectiles than Ash, she has to spend meter for an EX Trap Shot if she wants to guarantee that anti-air.
- EX Trap shot is a lot of hits, which means it scales terribly. Like I mentioned earlier, King's drive cancels midscreen aren't much to worry about. EX Trap Shot also doesn't really push back on block, so it's baitable on her wakeup or in other situations. Getting King to burn meter also cuts down her options, so she has to be very efficient throughout the rounds, even if she's anchoring.
I still play King on my main team, so don't take it as me saying she's a bad character; she definitely isn't. Her console changes weren't very dramatic, to be honest, so I'm still not quite understanding how she suddenly shot up from mid-low in arcade to high in console.
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Anyone knows if there's a recent tier list from Japan and Mexico. I'm interested where they place their characters.
Also I feel the Kyo (XIII) is definitely top five imo. Such a strong character and Jacks of all trade. Feels to me he's like arcade K' but not as beast.
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i agree if i had to pick 1 character out to be #1 i think it would be normal kyo. lots of contenders though
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i agree if i had to pick 1 character out to be #1 i think it would be normal kyo. lots of contenders though
Agreed, and I'll throw Yuri and Saiki as contenders for the top 3.
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I don't think you read my post. Robert isn't the best, he's just the most all-purpose of my high tier.
You're using the graph wrong, then. Top right of each quadrant is "best" of that quadrant. So, top right of quadrant one means, top tier & all purpose.
Think of the top right of the graph as an extreme, top right is the best position, the closer you are to it, the better, even if you're in quadrant 2. So, top right of quadrant two is the best of quadrant two.
Now, bottom left is what you don't want to be close to, that is the worst of the worst, even though IMO nobody is the "worst". Bottom left means has weakness and low tier.
I've seen a lot of people using the graph incorrectly...it doesn't matter if you get your point across, but that's not the case here.
I guess I can toss out a top five while I'm here, I don't endorse tier lists, it confuses the hell out of new players and gives them a false feeling of understanding. Just for kicks though, my personal top five is (in no particular order).
K'
Kyo
Claw Iori
Kula
Benimaru
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I don't think you read my post. Robert isn't the best, he's just the most all-purpose of my high tier.
You're using the graph wrong, then. Top right of each quadrant is "best" of that quadrant. So, top right of quadrant one means, top tier & all purpose.
Think of the top right of the graph as an extreme, top right is the best position, the closer you are to it, the better, even if you're in quadrant 2. So, top right of quadrant two is the best of quadrant two.
Now, bottom left is what you don't want to be close to, that is the worst of the worst, even though IMO nobody is the "worst". Bottom left means has weakness and low tier.
I'm pretty sure anything on the same vertical level is the same tier. Do you know why? Because I made the list and because I said so. You really don't need to post some longwinded explanation of how the list "should" work in your estimation when the the properties of the list are dependant on the individual making it. If a character is on the same vertical level as another, they are the same tier. If a character is farther right than left, the character is more all purpose. It's really quite that simple.
You guys know you can make your own lists, right? I never realized when I posted mine I'd have 3-4 posts nitpicking it. Maybe if I'm lucky someone with aspergers will nitpick this post too. ;)
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I'm pretty sure anything on the same vertical level is the same tier. Do you know why? Because I made the list and because I said so.
Ever had math class? They teach you how to use graphs, you don't just make that stuff up. I'm just trying to help and tell you the right way to do it, if you want to get upset, I could care less.
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I'm pretty sure anything on the same vertical level is the same tier. Do you know why? Because I made the list and because I said so.
Ever had math class? They teach you how to use graphs, you don't just make that stuff up. I'm just trying to help and tell you the right way to do it, if you want to get upset, I could care less.
How exactly am I wrong? To me "all purpose" doesn't mean "best," it means they have tools to deal with situations anywhere on the screen. Robert has tools for just about everything, but his tools are punishable. As a whole I put him in the top tier of players and as per my criteria of what "all purpose" is, he fits it the best. So how did I use the chart wrong?
This has less to do with math and more to do with the semantics of "all purpose."
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Thread closing in 3, 2, 1...
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Thread closing in 3, 2, 1...
and its because people want to debate how someone made their tierlist instead of the actual tierlist.
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I see nothing wrong with it. No one's being retarded like in the previous thread.
anyway, http://bit.ly/zKQUkj (http://bit.ly/zKQUkj)
Here's mine. I know Mr. Karate isn't out yet but I put him where I think he'll be.
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blah blah blah
blah blah blah
No one cares about this pointless argument except you two, if you want to continue this instead of having an on topic discussion then please take it to PM. I don't mind how someone makes the tier graph as long as they explain what they did before hand so we know how to read it. /pointlessargument
What does everyone think of Takuma? He has ridiculous damage (400+ meterless in the corner), a command grab that leads to a full damage combo, a decent fireball and great corner pressure. He lacks a good reversal, has limited AA options and has to use EX to do any significant damage from a low. I see a lot of people put him high-mid which is probably right.
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Think that's what really hurts Takuma. You don't have very many reliable anti-airs so you have to use spacing to make sure you're not in that position or block really well.
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yea thats pretty much takuma in a nutshell. ex qcf+K is very slow, he can throw fireballs from far to an extent and try to guess/semi-react with superjump cd or st.d but hes pretty much all-in trying to land a hit/grab and very little defense.
Agreed, and I'll throw Yuri and Saiki as contenders for the top 3.
so many people consider saiki strong but i just cant see it. not that its saying much since the game is so balanced but he seems to be on the weak end of things to me. he does seem good on a practical level ie tournament situations where having strong fundamentals and taking few risks can be what wins matches. on that note, how does everyone feel about leona? she seems super strong to me but ive heard people think shes ass and i kinda feel like im in crazytown thinking shes good.
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on that note, how does everyone feel about leona? she seems super strong to me but ive heard people think shes ass and i kinda feel like im in crazytown thinking shes good.
I don't think she's ass by any stretch, but she does seem pretty limited combo wise. I think her strengths are excellent normals and pokes, her ability to keep people off her even when crossed up, the instant overhead into DM and being able to threaten a DM any time someone leaves the ground.
Her low pokes are really good and she can mixup decently with her overhead command normal. A rushdown Leona is hard to deal with despite her lack of "pizazz" in the combo department.
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Leona is just too limited. I don't think anyone has made Top 8 at any tournaments with her on their team, but then again the game is still young so...
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Japanese Arcadia Magazine Tier List
(http://tiny.cc/cd4jw)
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Japanese Arcadia Magazine Tier List
(http://tiny.cc/cd4jw)
lol
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@Running Wild: Rofl at the post, hey I thought you were going to Dustbowl?
@Thread: Honestly I think Leona is a solid character but she's one of those character you have to commit to. I heard she's was reaching up in the tier late arcade run. I think she's high mid cause of her v-slash punish, instant overheads and zoning tools.
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ok, here is mine a little bit altered:
Ky0's Tiers (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trng3eh27c9b9r71afk78xaw8tjhecnj7elsdjdbdkgb8xboctaxahncf5ow8ze2ahndaigaalk85vfhed8if6h7go8l7cbohep0f4lw8za4c3ls5ua4j1e184ndc1cf8vcg7blu48nd5toy3f-bkg-naKy0)
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Maxima's... not bottom. >w<
Not with dem sideburns, dat guard point and REAL Canadian damage. He seems un-popular though... I don't see him often in tournament play.
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Maxima's... not bottom. >w<
Not with dem sideburns, dat guard point and REAL Canadian damage. He seems un-popular though... I don't see him often in tournament play.
Don't worry so much about it. It's just someone else's opinion. I'd say he's not bottom at all.
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I'm sure if Maxima had tits he'd see more play.
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That's a scary image dude.
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Maxima looks real annoying especially now that he can cancel auto guard. Might play him and imagine him with tits ;)
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Tits or no tits he's too slow to be effective and his grabs aren't as good as the other guys. But, I can see someone who's really good at reading doing well with Maxima.
I think Joe might be the lowest character. He just lacks damage and pressure. His zoning is his best quality and the fact that he relies so much on zoning and couple of characters like Clark and Mr. Karate just annihilate Fireball Zoners I think Joe is kinda' SOL.
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I wanna pick up Mature, I've been toying with her for awhile, but haven't put any solid effort into her yet.
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You had a good Mature, dude. You could do real well with her and King and maybe Mr. Karate/EX Kyo/EX Iori.
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Yeah I need more exposure with under used characters.
Hopefully the online patch makes the game playable online. I need match up experience. I'm calling Mr. Karate as high tier. Dude looks like Takuma on crack. Also why does he have a run throw that turns invincible if you use the ex version? The character is hands down the scariest for now.
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I definitely wanna try Mr.Karate out.
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Watched streams from Korea and Brazil and just like the US there is a considerable variety of characters being used, looks like the balance is holding up well so far across multiple regions. Can't speak for Japan yet because they seem to have almost completely halted release of match vids after the console release.
Interesting little tidbit is that the last time I watched the Korean stream it had a ton of EX Iori's, don't know if EX Iori players just didn't show up this time but I didn't see a single one use him after an hour of watching (still going through the archive). They made Vice look especially dangerous.
US, or rather SoCal, seem to be the only ones that really like Saiki though.
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I think the reason why there's not much vids coming from japan is strictly cause it is on console. If the game came out in arcades there would be a hand full of videos coming from there. Is too bad too since it seems if it were in the arcades KOF would be more active over there. Well we'll see down the road.
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I think Joe might be the lowest character. He just lacks damage and pressure. His zoning is his best quality and the fact that he relies so much on zoning and couple of characters like Clark and Mr. Karate just annihilate Fireball Zoners I think Joe is kinda' SOL.
Joe is a huge wild card because of his stun combo. I think I could place him low even with the stun combo but with high execution players he may be a very silly character.
As for Leona she does not seem limited to me. Her only limitations are 1. meterless damage, which is moot since she is a thrive on meter character and she's going to be 2nd or 3rd, and 2. she has to spend meter for a reversal. With meter, simple confirm into level 2 does enough damage, and her hd combos hurt a lot.
Her biggest strengths are 1. her normals are ridiculous. Kula-ish cr.B, low profile sweep, big st.D, fast low C, big and good angle jump CD, awesome stand CD, vertical jump D with a huge hitbox. 2. She is the only character in the game with an unseeable 50/50 with vertical jump D. Every other character with command overheads or command grabs, you at least have a chance to react or try and alt guard a throw/hit or jump out of overhead/throw. Leona you just guess. D slash is 0 on block so that allows her to set up cr.B/jump D 50/50 from that, very annoying.
But I will say she can never be in the absolute highest ranking because of the backdash change to console. It offers a pretty safe solution to her mixup, and if you actually block the high mixup it's unsafe.
Speaking of Leona I really hope Cheng Long is playing this game and using her. I think someone with high execution and talent can make her crazy...she's really the only character in this game that terrifies me.
anyway heres a list i made so everyone can flame me or w/e. also i dont use the graph its just a normal vertical list, horizontal doesnt mean anything: link (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trcu9obzbndmbn8gfg9zfggwbm5kdmg4ffhnfebjfffgdlh2dniqdmkcdlf8bm8vdn5lfhajdmg59p70fgdudlelffozdlijbld3ffnkffowfelwdlm2fenidkj6fe76dnkmfeeh9phu9pc6dm-bk8-naDandy%20J)
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If V-slash were anywhere juggle it would have destroyed back dashes. I still would consider her a character that you have to be a master off mainly cause of her options. I wonder if her HD combo were hit as hard as people made it out to be.
As for Joe I consider him some what like Takuma, can kill a character with one combo but will it be worth it? Especially whoever might be left for anchor. I still consider him a solid character but out side of the corner is options seems limited but I'm not a Joe player and what I'm saying is what I gather from matches. You can correct me on this.
Edit: NVM nothing changed lol.
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Yeah Leona is not an easy character. Her corner HD is not really hard, strong players should hit it 100%. Midscreen is another story but you can also lazy it out if you have 3 or 4 bars with super into nm. Joe...the stun combo is one of the hardest in the game, you won't see players hitting it consistently often, so he's kind of a theory land character right now. Rogueyoshi thinks Joe is super cheap, basically the way he sees it, if he lands a cr.B with Joe then that character is dead. I doubt that will actually happen in reality but I can see where he's coming from.
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Well he might be one of those character that might change tiers depending who's playing him. Hard to tell really. This year Evo will certainly be impressive considering the overall character usage this game provides.
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Any early guesses on Mr karate? He seems like he can really maul once he gets in
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Can't say, don't have my hands on him yet and there's no match footage for me to use.
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I'm curious to know what this thread thinks of Duo Lon. I've been having some success with the character so far, but I can see limitations in his damage output and real mix up options. Teleport crossups and resets can work against beginner to intermediate players, but I sense that he just isn't tricky enough to really open up advanced players with solid fundamental defenses. He seems like a lot of work for not quite enough damage. I'm not saying I'm going to let perceived tiers define who I play, but I am making an effort to become a serious contender in this game and have my sights set on taking some local tournaments in the near future. Does Duo Lon pay off in the long run, or is one of those characters where it's too much work for not enough reward?
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one of Duo Lon's best tool is canceling CD with rekkas on a knocked down opponent. He pretty much phases through the opponent and create a weird mix up situation. The good thing about it is that you can delay the CD cancel to be in front of the opponent so you don't get repetitive. I wouldn't consider him top but he's good enough if you put time into it.
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The CD whiff into Rekka cross-up is a really unsafe mixup for not much reward, though. I'd prefer something that gives me a much safer option select. Straight up, I've played a lot of King, and I find her to much safer and more solid all around. That being said, her play style is a little boring to me.
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I don't quite see why the Rekka mix-up on a knockdowned opponent is unsafe. For one, if you whiff the CD fast enough, the animation doesn't even come out visibly. Even if they guess which side, doing it the moment they wake-up means they'll either throw or guess the right way for a DP/DM reversal. If they block, you teleport. You'd have to guess which side they'll be on which is a 50/50. You can also whiff cancel his teleport for even more right-left mixups.
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I was under the impression that teleporting after blocked rekkas was at least throw punishable. Actually, it was a post I read on command grab punishes. I need to test it more myself, but it stated that 1f command throws were able to punish qcf+B after blocked rekkas. Clark/Beni/Daimon/Vice are all in this category, and are probable encounters on point. Metagame considerations, and I don't have to use the CD cross up setups on them, but it does merit concern.
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It is punishable, but in order to command grab, you need to know which side you're on.
Which again is a 50/50. You can also cancel into an EX if you REALLY don't want to get thrown.
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It is punishable, but in order to command grab, you need to know which side you're on.
Which again is a 50/50. You can also cancel into an EX if you REALLY don't want to get thrown.
I just wanted to add that this is mostly true since it is faster however DL's Ex teleport is only invulnerable in the beginning and he can be thrown definitely while he's moving.
The s.CD crossup still works well on intermediate players which I tested yesterday at the UCI Casuals. The best thing for the opponent to do is either do a real quick reversal, block forward (which you mentioned can still be susceptible to mix ups) or roll backward (which is they're best option honestly.)
As for where I would put Duo Lon, I would put him in the mid-top tier, I think although he has had quite a few minor damage buffs that help him overall since he's lots of hits from all different directions, that being said, he had better mixups in the arcade due to the system's hitboxes.
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^sure. A pity that his j.B is no longer cancellable into f.B. Was great for continuing pressure for more rekkas..
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^sure. A pity that his j.B is no longer cancellable into f.B. Was great for continuing pressure for more rekkas..
Wait, what? Yes it is o.O.
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Any early guesses on Mr karate? He seems like he can really maul once he gets in
crossup after reset can be quite brutal, but once you're used to the matchup his low reach (aside from far C->f+B) is really a downside. He seems like he's particularly strong vs. low level players who get caught off guard by his resets and his unblockable. Personally I think Takuma is stronger overall since he has the command grab, and somewhat better damage with meter and higher damage HD combos (for now).
Don't get me wrong, Karate is a goddamn beast for damage and has just as many options as Takuma, but he loses lots of his tricks against people who know his gameplan whereas Takuma is a bit more unpredictable. But who knows, he's only been out for a couple days, he certainly has room to grow and gain new mixup potential. The fact that he doesn't have as high damage and lacks a command grab over Takuma is kinda painful at the moment but he's still crazy good. In terms of defense Karate beats Takuma hands-down. Invuln shoryu, EX counter for a full combo, or early Brake shoryu for some severe anti air damage are all crazy tools.
Of course I haven't really played AS Karate much, just done his trials, but I've been playing against my friend's dedicated Karate main all day. I don't know all that much about the character aside from what I've been taught over the course of today.
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^sure. A pity that his j.B is no longer cancellable into f.B. Was great for continuing pressure for more rekkas..
Wait, what? Yes it is o.O.
For reals? Don't us duo, but was watching some vids mentioning j.B>jf.B could no longer be done, tried for a bit in practice and couldn't pull it off. D-:
I'll check that I wasn't on crack as I would like for him to have that. Is there some trick to doing it? If I can't execute that I think it's time for me to take up smash bros or lay off the crack - lol
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I think Mr. Karate has some honest damage ability and pretty safe attack options. Even though he can't rip your life bar up with that constant command grab loop, he does a great deal of damage for little resources.
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^sure. A pity that his j.B is no longer cancellable into f.B. Was great for continuing pressure for more rekkas..
Wait, what? Yes it is o.O.
For reals? Don't us duo, but was watching some vids mentioning j.B>jf.B could no longer be done, tried for a bit in practice and couldn't pull it off. D-:
I'll check that I wasn't on crack as I would like for him to have that. Is there some trick to doing it? If I can't execute that I think it's time for me to take up smash bros or lay off the crack - lol
Yeah I'm pretty sure I've done it in practice as well the few times I took Duo Lon there, I think you're supposed to connect the j.B as early as possible to be able to cancel it into f+B.
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Yeah shit, I was able to do it today hitting with j.B on the way UP off of hops. Thx guys, at least this sorry mystery has been dispelled for me. When I was trying it on the way down I think it must have been working too, but was hitting the ground before the animation could come out.
Karate finally got released for us today.
Have been messing around with him. Seems to have a ton of potential and is crazy fun to play. Can't really place him yet, but he def feels up there.
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For reals? Don't us duo, but was watching some vids mentioning j.B>jf.B could no longer be done, tried for a bit in practice and couldn't pull it off. D-:
They mean the instant overhead fuzzy setup on wakeup doesn't work anymore.
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For reals? Don't us duo, but was watching some vids mentioning j.B>jf.B could no longer be done, tried for a bit in practice and couldn't pull it off. D-:
They mean the instant overhead fuzzy setup on wakeup doesn't work anymore.
Yeah that, is a damn shame...one of the main reasons so many Japanese players took a liking to him.
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http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trjm2yn82xb74ni16j8l6ld64ne787pg5nlp8d506ole4mjv6jjs8d6p6mhw4ogb4rex32lr6ilg2xcb6jg86kah8c994o5pjycb8anb4ppj7fjm4pnl6ghy8cad6ke76jd32y9c2z7c4qb62y-bk6 (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trjm2yn82xb74ni16j8l6ld64ne787pg5nlp8d506ole4mjv6jjs8d6p6mhw4ogb4rex32lr6ilg2xcb6jg86kah8c994o5pjycb8anb4ppj7fjm4pnl6ghy8cad6ke76jd32y9c2z7c4qb62y-bk6)
Bala, Romance and the answer tier list
*Hides in a bunker*
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http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trjm2yn82xb74ni16j8l6ld64ne787pg5nlp8d506ole4mjv6jjs8d6p6mhw4ogb4rex32lr6ilg2xcb6jg86kah8c994o5pjycb8anb4ppj7fjm4pnl6ghy8cad6ke76jd32y9c2z7c4qb62y-bk6 (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trjm2yn82xb74ni16j8l6ld64ne787pg5nlp8d506ole4mjv6jjs8d6p6mhw4ogb4rex32lr6ilg2xcb6jg86kah8c994o5pjycb8anb4ppj7fjm4pnl6ghy8cad6ke76jd32y9c2z7c4qb62y-bk6)
Bala, Romance and the answer tier list
*Hides in a bunker*
The exaggerations in the videos here and the not really explaining why characters are where they are make it hard to take seriously.
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I just saw and watched the video for the tier list this morning. I've been playing Yuri since console release and just picked up Ryo a couple days ago because I felt he is a super solid battery choice. I'm pleasantly surprised they put those two so high up in the tiers next to K' and Hwa. But they are really solid characters so I can understand their reasoning.
In general the entire list looks ok, you can switch a couple characters slilghtly here and there and it wouldn't be too big of an argument. The only choice I saw that really bothered me was how low Kula is.
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^Hey what tier vid are you talking about? If it's recent, mind posting the link?
Cheers!
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http://www.twitch.tv/theanswerkof# (http://www.twitch.tv/theanswerkof#)
they start talking about tiers around 45 mins I think. Although I agree with what they said about console Leona being very unsafe now and meter dependent, I think they overexaggerated with her placement on the chart. Alot of explanations on some of the other characters were also either vague or "I'll take these guys words for it they main them" from The Answer.
Over all its looks like decent placement for most of the cast. It may be the whole english is not their native language thing but I hope they can re articulate their reasonings more clearly in the future.
The tier list itself is at least a starting point for one. The game is new, with more people playing it across the world so we'll definitely see changes in the future as tier lists are ever evolving.
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Thanks man will def peep this. The explanations r always the important part.
I'm amazed at how compressed the tiers are in general for an fg. The much feared karate factor hasn't exploded yet and may stay that way - we'll see.
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http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trjm2yn82xb74ni16j8l6ld64ne787pg5nlp8d506ole4mjv6jjs8d6p6mhw4ogb4rex32lr6ilg2xcb6jg86kah8c994o5pjycb8anb4ppj7fjm4pnl6ghy8cad6ke76jd32y9c2z7c4qb62y-bk6 (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trjm2yn82xb74ni16j8l6ld64ne787pg5nlp8d506ole4mjv6jjs8d6p6mhw4ogb4rex32lr6ilg2xcb6jg86kah8c994o5pjycb8anb4ppj7fjm4pnl6ghy8cad6ke76jd32y9c2z7c4qb62y-bk6)
Bala, Romance and the answer tier list
*Hides in a bunker*
I honestly think they're trolling Dark Geese by placing Billy Mid-Tier ;) .
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Dark Geese just loves Billy a lot I think! I do really like him too but putting him with Kyo's and Ioris is a bit nuts. Also I really enjoyed watching this vid, I wish there was more stuff like this. I really like discussing character rankings, strengths and weaknesses, I wish it didn't end up in flame wars so much.
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Yeah, I enjoy talking about chr strengths as well. You get caught up on new tech/strategy and find out what other people find to be effective. Heh, if peeps have beef with the opinions of others, time to break out the stick and prove your point in a match :D
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Only way you can have a discussion of this form is to do a semi podcast with serious players (the one who knows what they're talking about or doesn't spaz out if you do not agree). When I talk about tiers I go by what I see in matches but mostly option in terms of how he deals with the cast. You can have a character with easy 100%, that may be an advantage but that's not the deciding point. Another reason why I like talking about tiers is that you find out something new about the character. The people who goes "FUCK THE TIERS" is unnecessary. Just don't post ;)
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Man ppl really hate Leona lol.
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Man ppl really hate Leona lol.
KoF players think technical characters suck?
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Man ppl really hate Leona lol.
I have to admit, I was playing her when I first took up this game, but I soon left for other characters. That was before I'd seen any contention about her tier placement. My decision was more based on ease of hit confirms (though there may have been a correlation there between my difficulty with that and just being new to the game period), and start-up time of specials. d,u+P is obviously an excellent move, but qcb+K is very difficult, if not impossible to use against an opponent with good reactions. I find it only catches people who don't really know the move. Even b,f+A seems relatively slow to come out. It stays out forever, yes, but it controls a very limited amount of space and has a large start up time.
I don't know if I'd definitively put her on the bottom, but I will say that she felt she was lacking tools where other characters felt much more intuitive.
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The proposed tier list by Bala and TheAnswer:
A+: EX Kyo, Mr. Karate, Saiki, Robert, Kyo, Iori, Benimaru
A: EX Iori, Clark, Goro, Shen, Yuri, K', Hwa, Kensou
B+: Andy, Ryo
B: Kim, Mai, Duo Lon, Ash, Mature, Billy, Vice, Elisabeth, Raiden, Takuma, Maxima, Chin
B-: Athena, King, Terry, Ralf, Kula, Joe
C: Leona
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I'm not good enough yet to have an informed opinion on these character placements. But I'm glad they sat down and did this.
I don't like that King is down there but I can't disagree with their reasoning. Regardless, she fits my playstyle so I don't see myself ever not using her.
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The proposed tier list by Bala and TheAnswer:
A+: EX Kyo, Mr. Karate, Saiki, Robert, Kyo, Iori, Benimaru
A: EX Iori, Clark, Goro, Shen, Yuri, K', Hwa, Kensou
B+: Andy, Ryo
B: Kim, Mai, Duo Lon, Ash, Mature, Billy, Vice, Elisabeth, Raiden, Takuma, Maxima, Chin
B-: Athena, King, Terry, Ralf, Kula, Joe
C: Leona
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I'm not good enough yet to have an informed opinion on these character placements. But I'm glad they sat down and did this.
I don't like that King is down there but I can't disagree with their reasoning. Regardless, she fits my playstyle so I don't see myself ever not using her.
I think Leona is not bottom sure she has no safe specials but her normals and instant overheads make up for it. Mr Karate shouldn't be in the tier yet since not much was figured out in terms of weaknesses or strengths. I haven't watched the video yet so I guess I'll check it out during work.
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Leona doesn't make sense to me as a competitive pick.
With a life lead, she functions okay as a defensive character. But I would say that Ralf, Ash, Saiki, and King (at least, maybe others as well) do better with that playstyle because of better projectiles and farther reach in the zoning game (King's Tornado Kick, Ralf's Gatling Attack, etc).
Without a life lead, She needs meter to function well as her combo damage is below average without it. Her projctile's slowness makes it impractical to use in an approach. Her unseeable 50/50 is strong, but it wont kill someone unless you land it two or three times. Plenty of characters can kill you in two or three hits with 4 bars, so I don't see a significant advantage there. Lastly, her HD combos are a bit more difficult than those of other characters, although technically this is a non-issue with enough practice.
In either case, I don't see a reason to play Leona over another character, currently. Hopefully new tech emerges.
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I see what you're coming from. Although I think she still is strong and I think she has one of the best meter punishes of the game, but without a life lead she'll struggle.
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I have a feeling that people who place Leona at the bottom don't actually know Leona. She has some truly absurd mixups. I could never put her on a tier below the rest of the cast. I don't think any of the characters stand out as particularly weak or not viable.
All credit goes to Mienaikage, who seems to always have some amazing stuff to show off. I suggest everyone subscribes to his youtube channel.
The King of Fighters XIII: Leona - Fun with HD Instant Overheads (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JJ4vj9PP-M#ws)
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The overall reception of Answer, Bala, and Romance's tier list has been blow out of proportion on multiple sites.
For people who didn't watch the stream or the archive, the players ranked the characters from a general perspective. They were taken into factors like player's skill level and execution requirements, which led to lower placement of some characters, such as Elisabeth. That tier list (like any other tier list) is personal opinion but is also subject to change as new things are discovered or consistent tournament results prove otherwise.
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But tier lists are always made assuming the characters are being played at their highest potential, with players of equal skill. Thus, things like execution and ease of use shouldn't have weight in the tier placings.
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But tier lists are always made assuming the characters are being played at their highest potential, with players of equal skill. Thus, things like execution and ease of use shouldn't have weight in the tier placings.
I definitely don't think execution requirements should be considered when ranking the character.
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I think the worst character is either Joe (I think I've said why before) and Raiden. Raiden just doesn't have the tools to get in on half the cast and doesn't have the damage to match Clark, Goro, or Vice.
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I'm not a pro player like Bala or TheAnswer, just a casual who plays online a huge bunch of laggy matches... But for my experience, Kim is not B at all, he should be placed in B+ or A. I don't see anything really good in Hwa to justify his position in A group, B is his place (he can be punished easiely). Takuma should be placed as B+ or A, and I would switch Andy in K's place and viceversa. Athena and King in B- place? I disagree. Athena is totally buffed in this game, I don't see why Yuri is better than her, maybe just a bit safer but Athena is a pain in the ass with lot of priorities and a great
fireball spammer zonning character. So I would place Athena in B+ or A group and King in B.
Just a personal opinion.
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Yuri is better than Athena because Yuri is like Benimaru and Robert in that they're Swiss Army Knives. They can do everything. Great AA, fireballs, command grabs that can be cancelled, amazing rushdown, etc. The only thing Athena can do is be annoying zoning character and try to make you guess wrong and hit her when she does her shield super. Plus her damage just isn't up there with Yuri.
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from an online perspective shiranui ninja ryueenbu is right, but offline the lt some of their good points
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What do people think of Mature? She's the only character in the roster who really strikes me as low-tier, but I don't think I understand her very well.
Her combo damage seems really lacking compared to everyone else, her pokes don't seem great, and her mix-up and pressure games seem lacking.
Only things she has going for her (as far as I can tell) are Despair and chip damage.
Can anyone enlighten me on how I've underrated her?
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Vice could be a bitch sometimes, at least from the air she is really good, and can make some good pressure wit her big fireball, and her normal are decents
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What do people think of Mature? She's the only character in the roster who really strikes me as low-tier, but I don't think I understand her very well.
Her combo damage seems really lacking compared to everyone else, her pokes don't seem great, and her mix-up and pressure games seem lacking.
Only things she has going for her (as far as I can tell) are Despair and chip damage.
Can anyone enlighten me on how I've underrated her?
She does decent damage if you can link her cl.c from qcb+BD. I don't think it's a hard link to get down.
Does j.CD count as a good poke? It seems that a lot of western players don't really use it much. Her Iori-like cl.c makes for a nice AA.
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What do people think of Mature? She's the only character in the roster who really strikes me as low-tier, but I don't think I understand her very well.
Her combo damage seems really lacking compared to everyone else, her pokes don't seem great, and her mix-up and pressure games seem lacking.
Only things she has going for her (as far as I can tell) are Despair and chip damage.
Can anyone enlighten me on how I've underrated her?
As Mature user, I really don't know how to place her in a tier list, but for me is a very good pressure/speed character. I don't use her as a combo character, but her Death Row is pretty safe and if you see it impacts can be canceled into her Heaven's Gate easily. Dispair is a great tool and her fireball go out slow but if you know when to use it is a very effective fireball. Her normals are good, B is great to start combos and jC is good for air attacks, far C is good too, long range. and i think she is pretty safe. What I don't like is her close C, it hasn't so much cancelable frames, so C and qcb+C sometimes is too hard to connect. another bad thing about Mature is her damage, very low. But besides this, for me she is great. I'm speaking from my casual/online player point of view, of course :P
Other people who calls himself Mature doesn't use her because she is not abusive like Saiki....
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Andy got a bit of buffing namely chainable stand B>stand D, better jump D and f+A getting a hitbox buff so it will properly connect to stand C, faster NeoMax, and Chou Reppadan damage buff nerfs are pretty minor with EX Kuuhadan losing invincibility and slower sweep I think that Andy's placement in the tier list is because the characters got some improvements that severely changes the matchups despite Andy's solid buffs and little nerfs from the arcade. Robert is purely utility with Fireballs, DP, Command Grab, a GOOD AA Command normal f+A, Weak Hienshinpukyaku comboable from d+B d+A. But his damage potential is lacking he is mid tier material for me since I use Robert.
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Andy got a bit of buffing namely chainable stand B>stand D, better jump D and f+A getting a hitbox buff so it will properly connect to stand C, faster NeoMax, and Chou Reppadan damage buff nerfs are pretty minor with EX Kuuhadan losing invincibility and slower sweep I think that Andy's placement in the tier list is because the characters got some improvements that severely changes the matchups despite Andy's solid buffs and little nerfs from the arcade. Robert is purely utility with Fireballs, DP, Command Grab, a GOOD AA Command normal f+A, Weak Hienshinpukyaku comboable from d+B d+A. But his damage potential is lacking he is mid tier material for me since I use Robert.
I mostly want to follow up on this because discussion has been non-existent here recently, and also because of how much good I've heard about Robert. So many top players have touted him as being amazing, including the Bala/Romance/Answer tier list, yet I'm not sure why this hasn't transitioned into him seeing more play yet. Many of the higher-ranked characters on that list have seen a healthy amount of play and provided back-up to why they've been placed where they are. However, Robert is a character that still hasn't shown up. Kensou is also a rare sight, though I do get why he's been placed where he is.
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I also don't really understand why Robert is considered top tier. Yes, I agree 100% that he has a lot of tools, but his damage really isn't overwhelming. I've tried really hard to find some kind of corner juice that lets him get over 500 for 1 stock, 1 drive, but it just doesn't seem possible. The other characters in the A+ are monstrous in the corner. He doesn't get super damage midscreen, either, although his meterless midscreen combos are probably above average. I just don't see why he is so much higher than say...Andy.
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I don't think Robert's higher than Andy or Kyo. I believe he's just slightly lower. The thing is though, he's probably the only character I know who could adapt to almost every single fighting style there is, be it a rushdown, a zoner or even a grappler (kind of). Also, it's not so much about getting the most damaging combos as much as hitting them consistently, and Robert has an awful lot of ways to get in.
I think that's really the thing about Robert. You have to keep anticipating his every move, else you'll get punished a lot.
Edit: Also, this (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#tr5ugq5sbu7a35oy6sf9cp7kf6ardi94bt7jdf97f497gq8z1mfz5ooz1gl2enatbu5vf46690cgbuli6rn86s5l1i771jef5piz9y7kgpaugp7ebt5o36ogb3orii97dhn4ihasf45udg7v8z-bk4) is best tier list.
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I don't think Robert's higher than Andy or Kyo. I believe he's just slightly lower. The thing is though, he's probably the only character I know who could adapt to almost every single fighting style there is, be it a rushdown, a zoner or even a grappler (kind of). Also, it's not so much about getting the most damaging combos as much as hitting them consistently, and Robert has an awful lot of ways to get in.
I think that's really the thing about Robert. You have to keep anticipating his every move, else you'll get punished a lot.
Edit: Also, this (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#tr5ugq5sbu7a35oy6sf9cp7kf6ardi94bt7jdf97f497gq8z1mfz5ooz1gl2enatbu5vf46690cgbuli6rn86s5l1i771jef5piz9y7kgpaugp7ebt5o36ogb3orii97dhn4ihasf45udg7v8z-bk4) is best tier list.
Agreed (both on Robert and that list!)
So.... Now that we've seen Reynald give everyone a good Mr. Karate tournament primer, what does everybody think of him? Personally, as scared as I was of him at first, I've been trying to find where the holes in his spacing and offense are, and how you have to play him differently because of the counter and his air hienshippukyaku. The counter seems to make him completely destroy characters that pressure with projectiles. For example, I think Joes struggles a LOT in that match-up. That being said, with Bala's choice of Shen to take care of the match-up, is the answer to Mr. Karate having big normals and keeping him grounded?
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agree on robert. he is solid, has all the tools except an overhead, but his damage is low for the meter he has to spend on it. he has a combo ex grab but it scales so hard. his damage is good but not great, and midscreen combo options are very simple. in a lot of ways he is like benimaru but benimaru is better in almost every way.
mr karate is strong for sure. candidate for #1, no weaknesses.
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that tier list is whack. Vice should be a lot closer to Mai.
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Agreed (both on Robert and that list!)
So.... Now that we've seen Reynald give everyone a good Mr. Karate tournament primer, what does everybody think of him? Personally, as scared as I was of him at first, I've been trying to find where the holes in his spacing and offense are, and how you have to play him differently because of the counter and his air hienshippukyaku. The counter seems to make him completely destroy characters that pressure with projectiles. For example, I think Joes struggles a LOT in that match-up. That being said, with Bala's choice of Shen to take care of the match-up, is the answer to Mr. Karate having big normals and keeping him grounded?
I see Mr. Karate showing up in more and more tournaments. His safeness, counter ability, damage output and crazy pressure are proving quite bauss. I'd be interested in seeing what can be done to punish his fb counters from long range where your chr will be able to move for when he shows up...think this is worth exploring.
He's looking quite beastly atm.
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I see Mr. Karate showing up in more and more tournaments. His safeness, counter ability, damage output and crazy pressure are proving quite bauss. I'd be interested in seeing what can be done to punish his fb counters from long range where your chr will be able to move for when he shows up...think this is worth exploring.
He's looking quite beastly atm.
hahaaa, this!
Sadly, I think ClassicKyo top place is now over! But, say hello, Mr.Karate! xD
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^Yeah I'll be keeping an eye on karate.
Another chr worth bringing up again:
So many in NA feel that Leona's pretty low.
Interesting thing is Japan doesn't think so at all. I wouldn't mind seeing her a bit more in tourneys. The KCE vid on her presents her as being pretty darn solid.
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if you block in time for the fireball counter you can just do training mode on him
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if you block in time for the fireball counter you can just do training mode on him
If you block the EX counter? his regular projectile counter has him warp in without an attack but he still seems to get some invincibility so i dunno.. Might just have been online screwing with me but it seems that you should either just block when he comes warping in or gamble on an invincible reversal.
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oh i meant the ex. normal one doesnt have any vulnerable frames though depending on the distance and recovery you may be at advantage
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mr karate is strong for sure. candidate for #1
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Going from recent tournament results, and in general how the game has progressed since the last tier list, I'd like to propose:
A+: Mr. Karate, EX Kyo, Saiki, Kyo, Iori, Benimaru, EX Iori
A: Clark, Goro, Shen, Yuri, K', Hwa Jai, Kensou, Robert
B+: Andy, Ryo, King, Ralf, Kula, Takuma, Chin, Billy
B: Kim, Duo Lon, Ash, Mature, Vice, Elisabeth, Raiden, Maxima, Leona, Mai, Athena, Joe
B-: Terry
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Tier List (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trp34ap15xhr49eg84p37jcn54b1c9mpchcl2say53lo5wcs87lhe5m8atnf7lj58goxbye72tne5x9z8klq7j9c6u7t2sax2sp0app391lq48nwanb46pg886k2bphr5zoydoeh6hct6hp02o-bkf-naSharnt)
I'll try to explain how I see things :
- Right-Upward Corner (Karate to Vice)
Top tiers, they have everything and don't really rely on meter to come close. Plus they are able to do a ton of damages with a few gauge.
- Left-Upward Band (Takuma to Clark)
Very strongs characters in their speciality. But they often lack some options or have terrible defaults (How do you survive against an aggro opponent once he is in without meter while playing Takuma?), but well used they may be the best char in the game (One touch one death with Takuma/Joe, you can't lose if you have the advantage with Leona and few meters, if you mindgame your opponent Clark is ... ).
- Right-Middle Square (Kensou to King)
Strong character with their hadotrap but not quite top tier because of the weakness of the hadotrap in this game : charge to much gauge for the opponent.
Nevertheless they have often all kind of tools (from dp to command throw) and are very versatile.
- Left-Upward Square (Kim to Elizabeth)
Good pressure characters but often lake of tools (Something against hado for Kim by example) or are too relying on meter (Shen), or top tier characters are just better overall ...
- Others (Kula, Goro, Ryo, Billy, Terry)
Kula has a lot of tools and is especially good against hadotrap, plus she can apply a really harsh pressure.
Goro is amazing in this game, but he can be zoned a bit easily by some characters. Plus he is really weak against crossups, a speciality of a lot of character in this game.
Ryo is very strong, but his pressure has lot of holes exploitable.
Billy is very strong, he is just not quite top tier.
Terry has a good pressure but someone who knows read his crossup, tech throw, and guard his qcb.K high won't let him open the guard quite often ... the char is not bad, others are better that's all.
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I don't understand how you can tier a char like Shen lower (who is not meter dependent, in fact a great battery ) then have chars like Vice and Claw Iori up there who are obviously more meter dependent. Very inconsistent list.
Observing lists in general, it seems tiering is based primarily on major factors such as relative damage output and toolset and placements reflect individual biases towards these characteristics (IMO, matchups should factor as well). For example those tiering Claw Iori so high obviously do so because of his absurd BnB damage, however Ex Iori is the more well-rounded character, just does not benefit from meter nearly as well.
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I do think Vice is fairly solid and pretty top, but I do agree with Tasty in saying the reason she's top tier in this list is kind of inconsistent. She requires stock meter, quite a lot of it, to be effective. She's nowhere near a great battery character.
She has amazing pokes with her air and st.CD as her dominating specials. With proper spacing, she's great, but she truly is not versatile or dangerous without meter. That's her big crutch.
Anyway, good list, though I'll continue to say people who low ball Terry are not giving him a fair shake.
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The thing with vice, is that with meter, is just one minor screw up and you are death, even though it depends a lot if you had the meter and your opponent has his last character
I will put her in the mid or upper mid, being generous
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I don't mean to single out that list, my thought is that constructing a list you have to be consistent in factors weighted. A lot of these lists seem to lack consistency in that they rate one character high with certain attributes, but another character arbitrarily low with similar attributes without clear reasoning behind it.
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Strange... Seems like after initially disagreeing with Dune, people are falling back to placing Terry as the game's worst character. Makes me sad to see. I do agree he's not great, but I think the character's tools and performance are being underrated right now. Granted, the only Terry to have done well at a national was Shinblade, who opened my mind to the concept of a more defensive Terry style. I'm intrigued how he'll develop as the game moves on.
Also, did anyone check Justius's tier list? A lot of things there that aren't common in the U.S. school of thought right now, such as EX Iori being the better of the two and Mr. Karate not being top tier. Another thing I thought was strange was that he thinks Robert is on the lower end of the cast. Any thoughts?
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Strange... Seems like after initially disagreeing with Dune, people are falling back to placing Terry as the game's worst character. Makes me sad to see. I do agree he's not great, but I think the character's tools and performance are being underrated right now. Granted, the only Terry to have done well at a national was Shinblade, who opened my mind to the concept of a more defensive Terry style. I'm intrigued how he'll develop as the game moves on.
Also, did anyone check Justius's tier list? A lot of things there that aren't common in the U.S. school of thought right now, such as EX Iori being the better of the two and Mr. Karate not being top tier. Another thing I thought was strange was that he thinks Robert is on the lower end of the cast. Any thoughts?
I guess I'll have to pick Robert and Terry to see where they place at THE RUNBACK tournaments.
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Mr. KOF, no bluffing, you don't got a Terry >_>.
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Strange... Seems like after initially disagreeing with Dune, people are falling back to placing Terry as the game's worst character. Makes me sad to see. I do agree he's not great, but I think the character's tools and performance are being underrated right now. Granted, the only Terry to have done well at a national was Shinblade, who opened my mind to the concept of a more defensive Terry style. I'm intrigued how he'll develop as the game moves on.
Also, did anyone check Justius's tier list? A lot of things there that aren't common in the U.S. school of thought right now, such as EX Iori being the better of the two and Mr. Karate not being top tier. Another thing I thought was strange was that he thinks Robert is on the lower end of the cast. Any thoughts?
Link?
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It is from his interview that was on the DreamCancel frontpage a while ago.
To the interview: http://www.mmcafe.com/kof13-skye-interview.html (http://www.mmcafe.com/kof13-skye-interview.html)
Straight to the tier-list: Click me! (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trkn7xnx3xcm6vnz75dxb7mb78mab8hbb7ea6wknb7kn9kcn8jhd8ohff1m93wizb7j2f2nz8tj070iz9jf93mfr8lfs6xhcctc8b7mb9oflb8j15dcl56iycse88jhd70hd5dkn69kl3wma5j-bkf-naSkye%20Justius)
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The problem with Terry is that there's nothing unique about him. He has two EX Super whereas most of the cast has only one, but his Power Gyser is completely worthless because it's too slow. If you want to mixup, there's other characters that are way better than that, if you want to zone and use his EX Power Wave you could just use Saiki and abuse his Projectile Super which is way better.
He's not bad, but there's nothing unique about him that gives him an X factor. Unlike Leona who has some interesting tech that can make her very dangerous and sets her apart from other characters.
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The problem with Terry is that there's nothing unique about him. He has two EX Super whereas most of the cast has only one, but his Power Gyser is completely worthless because it's too slow. If you want to mixup, there's other characters that are way better than that, if you want to zone and use his EX Power Wave you could just use Saiki and abuse his Projectile Super which is way better.
He's not bad, but there's nothing unique about him that gives him an X factor. Unlike Leona who has some interesting tech that can make her very dangerous and sets her apart from other characters.
No. The problem with Terry is that he's not like a KOF character. He doesn't play by hopping incessantly and trying to score some hits and opening you up. He's a more relaxed, footsies-oriented character that relies on his very strong normals (cr.B, far C, st.A, close C, df+C, far D, cr.D cancel into Power Wave, C+D) to set up his area, with an amazing crossup and a good wake up pressure tool in EX Power Wave. He has a really fast knockdown overhead that lets him set up his crossup game in EX Crack Shot. His Power Geyser has partial invincibility and can be used to punish overzealous players with a reaction super. He has a RIDICULOUSLY easy, high-damage Neomax combo. He has a simple, easy combo that does decent damage for one drive (and one bar out of the corner).
He's one of the SF4 Transition Characters, as I like to call him. Because he does not fit the primary mentality of the KOF player, which is "how will I rush down today," he is ill-fit to fight in the same way as every other KOF character. He's link King, but slightly more extreme.
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That's one way of looking at it but it's very wrong. Yeah, Terry can zone but again not as well as other characters. Amazing crossup? It's a good crossup but if you're looking to setup oki why not use Beni or EX Iori? And his Power Gyser is complete ass, it's not fast enough to catch someone rushing you. And his Neomax is okay, pretty easy to land but the damage is terrible in the corner.
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Anyone have an opinion on maxima in terms of character balance? I'm still rather new, but I feel he does really well against heavy rushdown because of his autoguard, but has a hard time against fast characters with good midrange pokes. I've been looking for some Maxima play, but I can't seem to find any good games with him, or any sort of high level play. I'm wondering if the reliance on autogaurd has a part in that, i'd imagine he's a very dangerous character to play in high level play because of how punishable just about all of his whiffed normals are, and that better players are alot harder to read.
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Maxima is a niche character. He's basically a nerfed grappler who has bad matchups against half the cast and can get easily blown up if you rely on autoguard. I'd definitely put him in the low end of the tier list despite the damage he can do with meter because getting in with him is amazingly hard to do.
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And sadly he got a few dmg nerfs for console...
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Found this on SRK, originally posted by Laban. It's a tier list by Mari, a high level KOF '02:UM player from Japan:
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trng3jmk5p765kfb8cg278l53jnp9fgk5de78bfk6bhl3zda7iei3yd45dh762oc7jnp6z956wbz3seg9g8r5cef7ea19ikf5mcn6rlp7d654wit5zg04tb68o6yaid39hig35ng48p02rml36-bkf-naitimu_mari (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trng3jmk5p765kfb8cg278l53jnp9fgk5de78bfk6bhl3zda7iei3yd45dh762oc7jnp6z956wbz3seg9g8r5cef7ea19ikf5mcn6rlp7d654wit5zg04tb68o6yaid39hig35ng48p02rml36-bkf-naitimu_mari)
Like Justius's tier list, it seems to break a lot of the current lines of thought in the U.S. scene. Things to note:
1. Ash is at the bottom of the list, but still in A tier.
2. Benimaru and Robert are around mid-range.
3. Leona, King, Maxima, and Mai are noticeably high.
4. Clark and Billy near the bottom.
5. EX Iori at the very top.
Makes me wonder what we're gonna see when we have Japanese players at Evo.... and just how the game is developing over there in general.
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Poor Chin.
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Like Justius's tier list, it seems to break a lot of the current lines of thought in the U.S. scene. Things to note:
1. Ash is at the bottom of the list, but still in A tier.
2. Benimaru and Robert are around mid-range.
3. Leona, King, Maxima, and Mai are noticeably high.
4. Clark and Billy near the bottom.
5. EX Iori at the very top.
Makes me wonder what we're gonna see when we have Japanese players at Evo.... and just how the game is developing over there in general.
Whhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaattttt???? Wow, that is just odd and I'm not just saying that because I main them but I think everyone can agree that they're very solid characters that do big damage.
I'd like to know what they see in Mai though.
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I'd like to know what they see in Mai though.
If it'll give you any indication, you should see the Mai vid I just posted.
What I got from it was that she has some awesome EX moves and can air throw opponents out of any move that sends them into the air (and she seems to have many of those).
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So.... is this like the most balanced fighter ever or what?
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I assume you mean this: KoF XIII : Mai Shiranui Combo Vid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXAfvuVbK04#ws)
That's some interesting tech but the damage isn't that impressive. I can imagine some dirty tricks with her air-grab though and her jumping CD has amazing priority (as good as Takuma's).
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Word. CD to air ;dn ;db ;bk + ;a ;c was incredible!
(That was in that combo vid.)
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Found this on SRK, originally posted by Laban. It's a tier list by Mari, a high level KOF '02:UM player from Japan:
It's not a bad list. My opinions have changed a lot since I posted my own months back and this one is closer to how I view things now. I would put Benimaru back into ultra top tier, and maybe give Robert and Kensou a bit of a raise, but otherwise it looks alright. Finally a list that puts King where she belongs. I also like that EX Iori is high, though he shouldn't be #1. He isn't "inferIori," he's "versatilIori."
My own list nowadays would be something like:
A+: Benimaru, Mr. Karate, EX Kyo, Kyo
A: Iori/EX Iori, Saiki, Shen, Kensou, King, Duo Lon
A-: Robert, Andy, K', Takuma, Kim, Billy, Leona, Yuri, Joe, Athena, Hwa Jai, Kula, Mai, Vice, Clark
B+: Ash, Terry, Elizabeth, Daimon, Ralf, Chin, Mature, Raiden, Maxima
Some of the lower tiers are probably only there because they're under-represented. My opinion will probably change again in another 3 months.
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My own list nowadays would be something like:
A+: Benimaru, Mr. Karate, EX Kyo, Kyo
A: Iori/EX Iori, Saiki, Shen, Kensou, King, Duo Lon
A-: Robert, Andy, K', Takuma, Kim, Billy, Leona, Yuri, Joe, Athena, Hwa Jai, Kula, Mai, Vice, Clark
B+: Ash, Terry, Elizabeth, Daimon, Ralf, Chin, Mature, Raiden, Maxima
Some of the lower tiers are probably only there because they're under-represented. My opinion will probably change again in another 3 months.
Just kinda curious, and you're entitled to your opinion, as a Duo Lon user what's your reasoning for him being placed so high, relatively speaking of course.
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I can't see how duo lon is that good to begin with it, he under pressure is not very good and his offensive is nothing to write home about imo
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I can't see how duo lon is that good to begin with it, he under pressure is not very good and his offensive is nothing to write home about imo
Have you ever played a decent to very good Dou Lon? His offense and mix-ups can be a nightmare...
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I can't see how duo lon is that good to begin with it, he under pressure is not very good and his offensive is nothing to write home about imo
Have you ever played a decent to very good Dou Lon? His offense and mix-ups can be a nightmare...
Like I said, he's offensive is nothing to write home about in the sense that had good offensive, but that other characters could do the job way better, and the cons damage the pros imo
He is a reliable character, but at least he shouldn't be that high on the tier list
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A good Duo Lon's offense puts a damn good majority of the cast's offense to shame. Pure damage isn't everything.
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Hiis good offensive means nothing next to other characters who maybe don't had the good mixups but can't cover better other areas, plus his not that big damage is still a problem specially in a game like XIII, plus, I found him a bit execution heavy
He is a reliable character, but no way he is that good
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Alright, I'm going to say this once, and I want you to really listen. Execution requirements are not in any way, shape or form, relevant to the ability of a character unless the execution is so extreme, no human could perform it consistently. As of now, there's only one character I know of that fits that bill, and that's MvC2 Dhalsim.
Not having big damage is not a problem, even in a game like XIII.
As for his tier placement or if he's "that" good, I've already stated that I put absolutely no faith in any tier list, nor do I or will I ever create one of my own because it's IMO, a waste of time. However, you seem to heavily underestimate him, from what it seems like because of your own personal experiences with him, which means either you're facing subpar Duos, or...and excuse my bluntness, you can't use him at all yourself.
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Alright, I'm going to say this once, and I want you to really listen. Execution requirements are not in any way, shape or form, relevant to the ability of a character unless the execution is so extreme, no human could perform it consistently.
Someone needs to explain that to The Answer and Bala (a la Leona's placement on their tier list).
I can't see how duo lon is that good to begin with it, he under pressure is not very good and his offensive is nothing to write home about imo
Have you ever played a decent to very good Dou Lon? His offense and mix-ups can be a nightmare...
Like I said, he's offensive is nothing to write home about in the sense that had good offensive, but that other characters could do the job way better, and the cons damage the pros imo
He is a reliable character, but at least he shouldn't be that high on the tier list
As a Duo Lon user for over a year, especially compared to his v1.1 counterpart, IMHO, he's offense is not as good.
It's been discussed several times in the Duo Lon thread: yes, he does more damage overall but he did have better mixups in the arcade edition. Damage means nothing if you cannot pull it off.
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Alright Kane, seriously you need to stop riding Oscar and Bala about that damn list. Do they have to write some sort of deep, heart-felt apology? Because apparently them saying for the last month or two that Leona was better than they thought is not good enough for you. Apparently Bala winning tourneys with Leona now isn't enough for you.
It was one night, they were having fun with it, stop taking it so damn seriously.
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Alright Kane, seriously you need to stop
Actually, I don't have to do anything. But just to entertain...
Because apparently them saying for the last month or two that Leona was better than they thought is not good enough for you. Apparently Bala winning tourneys with Leona now isn't enough for you.
Nope, not considering the way they defended their list and attacked us inadvertently, and one of them in particular, reinforced his belief many times citing (and I'm paraphrasing) "that until someone beats him with Leona he's not going to change and since Bala was a champion, whatever he said is gold." You must have missed it.
So no, it's not one night of fun because they took it seriously and consequently many that watched their stream took it pretty seriously as well. The very next day I had to correct a commentator on public stream because they were just as amused as the list as we were, and I had to point out it was the opinion of the individuals, not SoCal's as a whole (that's why we took it personally).
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Watching the Japanese Game Spot Versus stream for Climax and:
- their character picks aren't all that different from NA, the tech as well.
- like the Koreans, they seem to heavily favour EX Iori over regular so far.
- looks like Mr. Karate may become their next arcade K'.
- Beni is also a regular pick, Shen too.
There's a Kensou player kicking a lot of butt, he's such a solid character.
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Alright Kane, seriously you need to stop
Actually, I don't have to do anything. But just to entertain...
Because apparently them saying for the last month or two that Leona was better than they thought is not good enough for you. Apparently Bala winning tourneys with Leona now isn't enough for you.
Nope, not considering the way they defended their list and attacked us inadvertently, and one of them in particular, reinforced his belief many times citing (and I'm paraphrasing) "that until someone beats him with Leona he's not going to change and since Bala was a champion, whatever he said is gold." You must have missed it.
So no, it's not one night of fun because they took it seriously and consequently many that watched their stream took it pretty seriously as well. The very next day I had to correct a commentator on public stream because they were just as amused as the list as we were, and I had to point out it was the opinion of the individuals, not SoCal's as a whole (that's why we took it personally).
Yeah, and you know what used to happen when people got annoyed that characters are getting disrespected? They pick up the character (if they haven't already) and they prove the character's worth to everyone. Money matching, winning tourneys, whatever, prove it by doing what we do best (or at least what we used to).
And if other people want to take a tier list seriously, that's on them, if they want to be stupid about it. Because those are the same people that have absolutely no understanding of the game to begin with. Because if they had the understanding, they wouldn't need the tier list to begin with, or at the very least wouldn't be as annoyed by it. But obviously you're proving that anyone can be annoyed by anything.
But seriously, enough talking and riding about it, pick up Leona if you haven't already, and prove her worth.
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Just kinda curious, and you're entitled to your opinion, as a Duo Lon user what's your reasoning for him being placed so high, relatively speaking of course.
Like others have pointed out, his offense and mixups are very much nightmarish when played by a high skill player. The average Duo Lon is not that threatening, but when he's in the hands of a rockstar the character is insane. He can mix you up for days off a dozen different string options. The more varied and unpredictable the player, the more problematic the character becomes. Combine that with decent normals and the ability to anti-air off rekkas, along with other dirty technology (like grounded crossups with rekkas on hard knockdowns) and you have a beast of a character. Unfortunately he takes a LOT of skill and creativity to reach that level so I understand why some people might be skeptical if they haven't seen it themselves, but once they do they'll understand. In my opinion, Duo Lon is every bit deserving of an A rating.
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But seriously, enough talking and riding about it, pick up Leona if you haven't already, and prove her worth.
I think you're missing the point; I don't have to pick up Raiden v1.1 to know he's good. I'm not a Leona player, at least not in the conventional sense (I've used her on and off for the last 12 versions), but I know when I character isn't rock bottom either.
Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I have now.
Like others have pointed out, his offense and mixups are very much nightmarish when played by a high skill player. The average Duo Lon is not that threatening, but when he's in the hands of a rockstar the character is insane. He can mix you up for days off a dozen different string options.
I'm pulling a number out of my ass right now, but I think over half the cast can punish his rekka rekkas teleport mixup and I don't know if you're aware of that his Ex teleport is punishable as well. He lost the bulk of his crossup setups due to system changes and the only thing he has left really is his crossup s.CD which can be countered by just paying attention slightly. If you shut down his teleport gaming, and his crossup game is basically non existent, he's left with very little unpredictable options.
The more varied and unpredictable the player, the more problematic the character becomes. Combine that with decent normals and the ability to anti-air off rekkas, along with other dirty technology (like grounded crossups with rekkas on hard knockdowns) and you have a beast of a character.
The main problem with using his rekkas as AA, is the tendency for it to cross-under (all too often, maybe 40% of the time), causing you to unintentionally use a drive cancel and hence dropping the combos. Speaking of cross-unders, those who use DL knows how annoying and often your BnB rekkas x2, qcf B, Ex DM combo becomes the Ex qcb P instead and there's very little you can do to control it at times (delaying, waiting, it's almost a guess at some distances).
Unfortunately he takes a LOT of skill and creativity to reach that level so I understand why some people might be skeptical if they haven't seen it themselves, but once they do they'll understand. In my opinion, Duo Lon is every bit deserving of an A rating.
Don't get me wrong, he's not crap--I'll settle with a A / A-.
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Alright, I'm going to say this once, and I want you to really listen. Execution requirements are not in any way, shape or form, relevant to the ability of a character unless the execution is so extreme, no human could perform it consistently. As of now, there's only one character I know of that fits that bill, and that's MvC2 Dhalsim.
Not having big damage is not a problem, even in a game like XIII.
As for his tier placement or if he's "that" good, I've already stated that I put absolutely no faith in any tier list, nor do I or will I ever create one of my own because it's IMO, a waste of time. However, you seem to heavily underestimate him, from what it seems like because of your own personal experiences with him, which means either you're facing subpar Duos, or...and excuse my bluntness, you can't use him at all yourself.
Big damage matters, why a character where his mix up game is a bit situational and with no that good damamge will be amazing when at least half the cast could to more damage without being that situational and with tools to compensate other areas?
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Because in Duo's preferred position, Point, his damage at 1 Bar/1 Drive, aka the max most Point characters would be willing to actually burn short of killing someone with HD, is actually not that far off what MOST characters can do. Short of an extreme case (Hwa Jai Drunk), he's 100 off the pace at worst. The difference being his offensive potential never stops at the end of his combos, they continue to go into hit resets and tons of mixups whereas most characters get safe/crossup jump setups at best.
But I'll bring up a question for you, though I hate to do it since I know I'll get yelled at by everyone else but, WHY IS THIS A BIG DEAL TO YOU? God forbid Jenny have her own opinion on character placements.
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But I'll bring up a question for you, though I hate to do it since I know I'll get yelled at by everyone else but, WHY IS THIS A BIG DEAL TO YOU?
Just remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and viewpoints, so let him have his, and lets leave it at that.
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elive.Pro|Frionel's tier list if it hasn't been posted already:
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tro92pky30aj5igj9rl15xmn5ri48ump7ihy61jk7ihz4dcd5jof6kav8toa4ngg5mp1869a3ijc2peg8z8h6mco8sas7kjt9pna9pji57ml4qef5i9b9gl67hgd82l155jm6agb4eky44mk31-bkf-naeLive%7Cfrionel (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tro92pky30aj5igj9rl15xmn5ri48ump7ihy61jk7ihz4dcd5jof6kav8toa4ngg5mp1869a3ijc2peg8z8h6mco8sas7kjt9pna9pji57ml4qef5i9b9gl67hgd82l155jm6agb4eky44mk31-bkf-naeLive%7Cfrionel)
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But I'll bring up a question for you, though I hate to do it since I know I'll get yelled at by everyone else but, WHY IS THIS A BIG DEAL TO YOU?
Just remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and viewpoints, so let him have his, and lets leave it at that.
You're right, you're right, and this is kind of the reason why the first thread got derailed, since I was being a douche to those who actually want to do a tier list, so I should avoid posting here anymore lest it happens again. I apologize to all.
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elive.Pro|Frionel's tier list if it hasn't been posted already:
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tro92pky30aj5igj9rl15xmn5ri48ump7ihy61jk7ihz4dcd5jof6kav8toa4ngg5mp1869a3ijc2peg8z8h6mco8sas7kjt9pna9pji57ml4qef5i9b9gl67hgd82l155jm6agb4eky44mk31-bkf-naeLive%7Cfrionel (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tro92pky30aj5igj9rl15xmn5ri48ump7ihy61jk7ihz4dcd5jof6kav8toa4ngg5mp1869a3ijc2peg8z8h6mco8sas7kjt9pna9pji57ml4qef5i9b9gl67hgd82l155jm6agb4eky44mk31-bkf-naeLive%7Cfrionel)
Looking at that list i wonder about a couple of points; How is Joe and Hwa equally well rounded? I see Joe as a more well rounded character, while Hwa may make up for it, i don't see them on equal terms in that department.
Yuri to me doesn't feel like a very well rounded character at all, her fireballs are relatively unsafe and she doesn't exactly have the best normals all around. Neither of her reversals are invincible so she has to go to the very weak EX slap grab to give herself a break. She may be very good, but she's definetly flawed imo.
I also don't see how K' is so flawed that he ends up on the other side of the line, it may not matter much, but doesn't he have just about everything you could need in this game outside of a command throw?
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Hello guys!
Since the patch, some of the bugged Ex Iori combos dont work anymore, like his infinite.
If I remember the thing correctly, in the pre-patch version, you can to do the Ex Iori infinite by canceling the second hit of Aoibana in Maiden Masher and do another Aoibana and repeat, but if you have half or more of the HD bar the Aoibana will cancel in Maiden Masher (super cancel).
In a pre-patch video you can see the infinite, but, in the previous combo ( at 1:22 ) Ex Iori do a 100% combo using [Ex Aoibana or normal Aoibana ] -> overhead. I have tried but, by this time, I can't do that combo.
Anybody knows how can I do that combo, if possible, in current version, or, if not possible, how can I do that combo in the pre-patch version?
Thank you people o/
Video:
KoF XIII : Iori with the power of flames Combo Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV0N-aOv4eI#ws)
UPDATE: Now I can do that combo (at 1:22) -> The combo does not change anything in the current version.
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I actually agree with Kane about Duo Lon. His mixup is mostly transparent outside of CD > Rekka cross up on wakeup, but that can be avoided by simply rolling when you see the CD. Outside of that, all of his mixups are simple things that almost all characters have... staggered jabs and throws. His damage off 2 meters isn't bad, but his big problem is his neutral game not being particularly damaging and him dying HARD on wakeup to a lot of characters, so if you slip up and eat a j.CD or something, he really has to struggle to get his space and get momentum in his favor again.
He's pretty good at lame out and he has the best crouching jab in the game but I think that's really where his strengths end.
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well...
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/may/07/eventhubs-community-tiers-poll-king-fighters-13-part-2 (http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/may/07/eventhubs-community-tiers-poll-king-fighters-13-part-2)
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Oh god Eventhubs...
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Eventhubs should just go back to covering only Capcom games because they obviously don't know anything else lol.
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Eventhubs should just go back to covering only Capcom games because they obviously don't know anything else lol.
They don't know Capcom games either, so what's your point?
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Eventhubs should just go back to covering only Capcom games because they obviously don't know anything else lol.
Regardless of the quality of the content from Eventhubs it's still one of the bigger Fighting Game websites for North America. It's better that non-Capcom fighting games gets as much exposure as possible so that the player base can grow. Considering the growing dissatisfaction with Capcom fighters a little bit of exposure on sites like eventhubs can go a long way.
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The only thing big about Event Thubs is their front page, which is hijacked from other websites like SRK and iPlaywinner (my favorite). Their guides are pretty lacking compared to the others.
It's nice they opened up the site to non-Capcom fighting games though, but they need to do something more and show more interest in the games they are covering besides Capcom.
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Interesting, 6/23 3pm JST: Shinjuku Playland Carnival - First ever Climax ratio match.
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/53747/1330956358/60 (http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/53747/1330956358/60)
Team total max 6:
5 Karate
4 Kyo, EX Iori
3 Saiki, Benimaru, Hwa, Shen, Iori
2 K`, Kula, Duolon, EX Kyo, Leona, Andy, King, Kensou, Ryo, Robert
1 Ash, Elizabeth, Billy, Daimon, Joe, Takuma, Mature, Vice, Kim, Yuri, Raiden, Ralf, Clark, Mai, Chin
0 Athena, Terry, Maxima
※Some adjustments made based on frequency of use
...Karate players will be forced to have an Athena/Terry/Maxima - interesting.
Looks like I would be able to run my regular teams.
Hopefully there will be a stream.
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I updated the front page with the link of tier charts: http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/bbs/messages/13335.shtml# (http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/bbs/messages/13335.shtml#)
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So this is the official Japanese tiers list, heeh ?
I'm not really surprised by the ratio (especially for Mr Karate lol).
This tournament should be interesting.
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So this is the official Japanese tiers list, heeh ?
I'm not really surprised by the ratio (especially for Mr Karate lol).
This tournament should be interesting.
No, it's done by like one arcade, lol.
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Kyo over EX Kyo?! I thought EX Kyo was tearing assholes left and right!
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Kyo over EX Kyo?! I thought EX Kyo was tearing assholes left and right!
I think Kyo has way more tools to do damage than EX Kyo.
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^Yeah def agree with that. Some feel that raw dmg output is higher with EX Kyo (which I don't really agree with), but normal Kyo definitely has more opportunities to do damage.
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ralf needs more love everybody dam near put him dead last (except for 1 person)
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Again, I don't get why Clark and Billy are rated fairly low. Billy is really easy to use and can zone out a majority of the cast. And Clark has tons of tools available to him and works on any point.
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Again, I don't get why Clark and Billy are rated fairly low. Billy is really easy to use and can zone out a majority of the cast. And Clark has tons of tools available to him and works on any point.
both those characters require alot reading they aint easy.
i always thought tier list was based on whos the easiest to use
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They're not necessarily rated low. It's due to usage (as noted that that is factored into the scaling).
Billy users in JPN for example, are crazy rare.
It will probably only take 1 strong billy to get a bunch of others to adopt him.
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In regards to Toryuken this weekened (road to EVO tourney held in Toronto, Canada), the most used character was easily regular Kyo. No Mr. Karate in sight from the Canadian players, only one using him was Justin Wong iirc.
Again, I don't get why Clark and Billy are rated fairly low. Billy is really easy to use and can zone out a majority of the cast. And Clark has tons of tools available to him and works on any point.
With regards to Clark I think its just Bala clouding our judgement, aside from him there's no other Clark performing well in tournament, consistently or at all usually.
Only seen one good Clark from Japan and that's about it.
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I moved the Clark match up discussion to his own thread (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1669.msg54133#msg54133).
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Again, I don't get why Clark and Billy are rated fairly low. Billy is really easy to use and can zone out a majority of the cast. And Clark has tons of tools available to him and works on any point.
Billy is easy to use, but he doesn't have things like an overhead (which characters like Kyo and Iori have), and for him to truly take advantage of HD you have to do something that isn't always consistent imo... On top of that, as far as anti airs go, his best one requires meter... That's one meter too many if you ask me, especially when d.C doesn't always work against specific jumping attacks...
Clark, well maybe people still have that bad taste in their mouths from XII... Iunno... He's a beast though...
You also gotta take in consideration that Japan just got Climax, so things will take some time to sink in for them...
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Not that many jump ins beat Billy's cr.C though. And I think using meter to get 300+ damage is pretty damn good. Not suggesting that Billy is braindead-easy but his t.A and j.C really fucks with most of the cast.
You make a good point with the J's not digging into Climax yet.
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Really thinking about the tiers and I think everyone can agree that these are the top characters as far as Damage with little meter (2 bars and full HD max) and that have more favorable matchups than others:
In no particular order:
Mr. Karate, Shen, Iori (both), Hwa Jai, Kyo, Billy, Benimaru.
I stand by Billy being among the tops. Amazing AA game, especially with meter. Amazingly good footsies and pressure. His j.C and CD can just shut down a majority of the cast.
Everyone else would be Mid. Maxima may be the lowest. I think Clark could be at best High-Mid or just Mid. He has great technology but the top characters I listed can give him trouble and he needs a ton of meter to do serious damage in one combo.
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Well, this is what I'm thinking, actualy, of simplified game tiers:
A: Shen, Kyo, Kensou, Mr.Karate, EX-Iori, Iori, Chin, Andy, K', EX-Kyo
B: Mature, Billy, Clark, Elisabeth, Ryo, Takuma, Saiki, Duolon, Maxima, Kula, Benimaru, Joe, Hwa, King, Yuri, Leona, Athena
C: Kim, Ralf, Vice, Terry, Raiden, Ash, Mai, Goro, Robert
(no order in chars... only indexed by level A/B/C...)
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So I made the characters usage list below based on the top 8 results posted on http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/jun/08/mlg-anaheim-spring-championship-tournament-live-stream-kof13-mk9-and-sc5/ (http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2012/jun/08/mlg-anaheim-spring-championship-tournament-live-stream-kof13-mk9-and-sc5/) at MLG.
Shen-4
Mr.Karate-3
Iori-3
Benimaru-3
Hwa-3
Takuman-2
King-2
Andy-2
Ryo-1
Yuri-1
Saiki-1
Ash-1
Maxima-1
Duolon-1
Thoughts?
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Although I won't take away from MLG being prestigious, I will say that it's an event that's not a total demonstration of versatility. Many of the people in top 8 are people who have similar character choices because they play each other so much.
I also feel that this shows the ratio between ease of execution to rewards is high for all the characters listed above 2. As you go up the scale, the character is much easier to get plenty for less and less effort.
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Thats that case for most tier lists for this game at the moment. The top rated characters are based on ease of use + reward. When people start getting better with characters like Yuri, Elizabeth, raiden, chin, takuma, leona, I expect the tier list to change dramatically.
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Also the MLG usage list isn't entirely correctly, for example I know Bala also chose Yuri against Tokido and Reynald swapped in Leona etc...so I dunno if they factored in everyone's character changes.
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Is Kyo going down the ranks for you guys? Any particular reason(s) for the drop off in usage? Don't remember seeing him at all in the tournament (EX or regular).
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Kyo is still the best char in this game imo, but he is quite complicated to play compared to some other. Plus he requires a very precise execution and good reaction time.
Ex Kyo is a top tier char for me, but he his far more easy to play than is normal counterpart, and I don't know why he isn't more played because it's really easy to beat average level guy with it and with a very simple plan you can annoy like hell.
If I wasn't using normal Kyo I would have play Ex I think, but I'm affraid to become confused by playing both so ...
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Also the MLG usage list isn't entirely correctly, for example I know Bala also chose Yuri against Tokido and Reynald swapped in Leona etc...so I dunno if they factored in everyone's character changes.
The list definitely doesn't reflect all of the characters that were used during the tournament by the those players. I know Reynalds was using Kim at several points during top 8 as well.
I don't think you can really draw any conclusions by compiling a list from the top 8 of one event. You need a larger sample size by comparing and contrasting the character usage of several KoF majors to get a better idea of character trends. Personally, given the balance of KoFXIII you're going to see a pretty good diversity of characters overall. The only character consistency you're most likely to see is Mr.Karate, EX Iori, Claw Iori, EX Kyo, and Kyo.
Bala is also a very talented player who does well with pretty much any character in the game. He pretty much uses the flavor of the month at the time as we've seen him dabble with Joe at the last US major and several TRB's. The last few weeks had him playing around with Takuma and he opted to use him during this MLG. I wonder if he actually has a main team and what characters he'll decide to use for Evo. Personally, I always thought his best characters were Billy Kane & Claw Iori.
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^Yeah, don't go by Bala. The guy can make pretty much any character look higher tier than they are.
And I have no idea why Reynald stopped using Kim, he was his most dangerous character imo.
Kyo is still the best char in this game imo, but he is quite complicated to play compared to some other. Plus he requires a very precise execution and good reaction time.
Ex Kyo is a top tier char for me, but he his far more easy to play than is normal counterpart, and I don't know why he isn't more played because it's really easy to beat average level guy with it and with a very simple plan you can annoy like hell.
If I wasn't using normal Kyo I would have play Ex I think, but I'm affraid to become confused by playing both so ...
I think the key to a great Kyo is movement, you can often see the really good ones just by how they move across the screen. The Japanese are really good at this.
Both Kyos can be zoned out though I think, especially ex. The best EX Kyo I've played on PSN lost to zoning and hit and run tactics with me (don't know if he realized it but I was trying different gameplay styles and character types on him one by one). Eventually he gave up and resorted to normal Kyo, when that didn't work he just stopped taking Kyo altogether the moment he saw me put a zoning character on my team.
Its not even just zoning, characters/tactics that can keep them at arms length are very effective as well.
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Also the MLG usage list isn't entirely correctly, for example I know Bala also chose Yuri against Tokido and Reynald swapped in Leona etc...so I dunno if they factored in everyone's character changes.
You are right, I will update the list. Please let me know if there's any more that they missed.
Shen-4
Mr.Karate-3
Iori-3
Benimaru-3
Hwa-3
Takuman-2
King-2
Andy-2
Yuri-2
Ryo-1
Saiki-1
Ash-1
Maxima-1
Duolon-1
Leona-1
Kim-1
P.S. I'm also going to make a ECT character usage list as soon as I have a chance, I think it will be interesting to compare the character usage from an event happening on the other side of the country at the same time.
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Yo answer :) I'm 100% sure Reynald also use Terry against Duc. And MrKOF choosed Goro and Robert in (a) some match (but don't remember versus who), be patient was the fucking 7 a.m. in Italy to see the MLG streaming ahah.
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Every character is the best if you master him, and even in 98um, you just face against a good FingerCramp Krauser and you are screwed, unless you really know how to play him, and still, is 50/50
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Every character is the best if you master him, and even in 98um, you just face against a good FingerCramp Krauser and you are screwed, unless you really know how to play him, and still, is 50/50
Ohhh sorry I was talking about KoF XIII I should have cleared that out :P.
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Oh lol, I was confused since not so many people refer to kyo 94 in XIII, just in 98 where he is the ex character (well kyo 95)
If that's the case, yeah kyo could be maybe the best character in the game, I feel that from the top chars, he is maybe the less ''automatic''
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Oh lol, I was confused since not so many people refer to kyo 94 in XIII, just in 98 where he is the ex character (well kyo 95)
If that's the case, yeah kyo could be maybe the best character in the game, I feel that from the top chars, he is maybe the less ''automatic''
Yeah well, I think he has the best options, easiest set ups, good damaging combos and his specials are relatively safe. His pressure game is intense and his jump down C has insane priority (yes nests Kyo has the same special normal but I think 94 Kyo could really benefit more from it.) well thats my argument atleast.
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I still think Benimaru is the best character in the game. Just for the fact that not only does he have insane priority on his normals, he's also very hard to approach. Sometimes it feels impossible to gain any grown against that character. He controls space better than any character in the game, and that puts him at the top IMO.
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I still think Benimaru is the best character in the game. Just for the fact that not only does he have insane priority on his normals, he's also very hard to approach. Sometimes it feels impossible to gain any grown against that character. He controls space better than any character in the game, and that puts him at the top IMO.
The thing is I didnt get a chance to go against a good Benimaru but from my usage and I frequently go against 94 Kyo from what I can see 94 Kyo is a well rounded, almost perfect character, good damage, his BnB's are really good and easy to connect with. Even from what i've seen Benimaru is really good but I still think that 94 Kyo is better.
I want to hear more opinions.
BTW I come from a 3rd strike backround and I dont believe in tier lists; it depends on the player more than the characters unless there is a skill cap and broken characters which should not be really.
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After talking and playing with players in SoCal for a while, this is my personal tier list going into EVO:
AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai
A+: Both Ioris, Both Kyos, Benimaru, Yuri, Takuma, Billy
A: Shen Woo, Vice, Saiki, King, K', Kim
A-: Andy, Kensou, Kula, Duolon, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Liz, Ryo
B+: Raiden, Joe, Leona, Daimon, Chin
B: Terry, Ash, Robert, Athena, Maxima, Mai
My opinion only. Feel free to disagree, but this is what I currently believe to be the most accurate rating.
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After talking and playing with players in SoCal for a while, this is my personal tier list going into EVO:
AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai
A+: Both Ioris, Both Kyos, Benimaru, Yuri, Takuma, Billy
A: Shen Woo, Vice, Saiki, King, K', Kim
A-: Andy, Kensou, Kula, Duolon, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Liz, Ryo
B+: Raiden, Joe, Leona, Daimon, Chin
B: Terry, Ash, Robert, Athena, Maxima, Mai
My opinion only. Feel free to disagree, but this is what I currently believe to be the most accurate rating.
I'd agree with that somewhat. Why is Robert so low though? And Mai is actually pretty decent on 1st. Her zoning is good and her pokes and j.CD have really good priority. I'll put it like this, Mai can really fuck up Billy. Billy just cannot get in on Mai. I'd maybe move Liz a little lower, and Clark slightly high (somewhere between Kim and Andy). BTW I played a good Kim recently, totally agree with his placement. If he gets you in the corner you really have to play smart to get out or have to spend meter to get out.
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I disagree with Mai beating billy. Like most other characters, she doesn't have a consistent answer to fwd. A. Her pokes are decent, but she lacks good damage anywhere outside the corner. She has no reliable way to put opponents into the corner. She has no wake up. Totally low tier.
Robert sucks. I could write an essay about all the reasons robert sucks. Maybe I will in the future haha. I mained Robert because I thought he was good. Over time, I realized that he is very mediocre in every aspect of his game. The only good things about robert are his jump CD, his sweep, and his uppercut. His midcreen HD builds your opponent almost as much meter as you spend. His far standing normals all suck, except for his jab. His command grab is slow and has no invincibility. His lighting legs are worthless. SO much more to talk about, but I'm lazy right now.
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The reason I'm impartial to current tier lists is because I haven't seen any acknowledgement of character positions. For example, king vs hwa jai. Of course hwa jai is a better character with meter, normals are better, specials are better. If you were looking at a first position character, wouldn't king be a better choice?
or daimon vs billy. I agree that billy has better tools than daimon but an anchor daimon is a lot more scary than an anchor billy IMO.
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I think Robert is better off as a point character.
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My updated tier list:
A+: Beni, Karate, and Hwa.
A: Both Iori's, Shoto Kyo, and everyone else except...
B+: Joe.
B: Terry, Athena, Maxima.
I honestly think Beni is top. He has so many good options, probably the best crossup in the entire game. Amazing and really safe air control. Corner stun combo. OP Wakeup game. Seriously. His 1-frame grab, his SRK, and Shield Super cannot be interrupted on wakeup and I feel that unlike Karate or Hwa you have to back off of him. He's the only character where I feel like I have to do that. Unless there's some secret that I'm not aware of.
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KoF is an exceptionally balanced game, and one that I'm rapidly absolutely falling in love with. Tier lists tend to be pretty all over the place, but my buddy Beboped and I (mostly him, really) came up with a list of A tier characters based on tournament showings that seems to hold water really really well.
In a nutshell, here's how it works: There is a list of characters (somewhere around 1/3rd of the cast) that make up 2 of the 3 slots in every competitive team. In other words, every top-8 team @ EVO, and all but 2.5 of the top 32 was structured like this, in some order: List Char/List Char/Wildcard. At least while on-stream
THE LIST (In no real order)
Hwa Jai
Benimaru
Kyo
Shen
Kim
Iori
EX Iori
Billy
Mr Karate
For the record, the outliers are Fox, Luis Cha, and Mr KoF's second team when he ran it back against Xian.
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Sounds about right so far. Pretty much every player's team we've seen at EVO so far have had those characters thrown in there somewhere.
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The list will be a bit biased as every member of CafeID seems to have Kim in their team for obvious reason lol.
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Well, seems like Duo Lon was the MVP of the KoFXIII EVO 2012 tournament.
I can't be happier than that.
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The list will be a bit biased as every member of CafeID seems to have Kim in their team for obvious reason lol.
Perhaps a little, but less than you might think. Gutts didn't use Kim at all (that I saw), so Cafe ID only comprised about half the Kims in the top 32. Remember folks like Reynald, Zero Black, Poongko, and Sange Tencho... His place on the list is legitimate.
It's not a "do this and win" tactic at all, but it's an interesting trend to notice. It's a statistical anomaly that actually holds true more than you'd think.
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do you guys do anything special while meeting/practicing together other than just playing? for example; going over character matchups in training mode, finding new strategies/tech, critiquing teammate's weaknesses, etc.
what's your strategy on meter usage? when do you decide to use meter even if it may not be the most efficient combo (meter to damage ratio)?
what do they think are the hidden strengths of the american low tiers, athena, leona, mai?
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I would be interested to see a tier list that explained that strengths of each character in each position.
I.e.
King on Point
King on Mid
King on Anchor so on and so forth.
Team based tier charts would be sweet.
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what do they think are the hidden strengths of the american low tiers, athena, leona, mai?
I think Leona is pretty damn good but has that high execution requirement. She's good at zoning, great footsies, fast overhead (I think instant?) into massive damage, an air super that pretty much beats anything on top of that. Just requires high execution and her wakeup game is kinda' bad, she really needs to spend meter to get you off of her, and her EX's aren't safe at all and funny enough Clark's B SAB beats all of her wakeup attacks aside from I think Super and Neomax.
Athena I think is bottom tier. Horrible character. Has good corner juggles but that's about it. People tend to use her if they mistakenly think that they can get away with SF-style zoning with her and no, it doesn't really work that way with her. You can get away with that with Ryo, Ash, Saiki, and King to an extent. But not Athena. Too many holes in her game and fireball spam isn't going to get you far.
I think Mai is good at zoning. She has a really good jCD that seemingly beats every Air-to-Air attack. Good normals. I'd put her on par with Terry. Not a bad character at all, just doesn't excel as well as others, and a good pick for 1st.
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Athena I think is bottom tier. Horrible character. Has good corner juggles but that's about it.
As a Athena main , reading such things about her annoys me a lot. How is Athena an horrible character ? I don't want to sound mean, but I really think you have no idea what you're talking about.
I won't go into details because then I'll have to write way too much, and I really don't know how to organise all of that but, there are a few things I want to talk about.
- First of all , let's talk about her zoning game and what she can do with it.
A common strategy to counter zoning is to merely block the fireballs or nulify them to build a lot of meter. Athena's zoning game , unlike Ash's, Saiki's or King's doesn't have that weakness because she can build meter like crazy with tiger knee Phoenix Arrows. Which makes Athena a threat even fullscreen range and forces the opponent to attack her somehow or she'll just build meter.
Then, Athena has many , many ways to anti air. She has her 4f dp A that moves her forward a lot , her fully invincible dp C, her very good jump CD, her extremely good ground CD (and you can even option select it with teleport so that if it anti airs you have a safe jump after , or a free dp C /EX DM if it hits counter) , her EX teleport > throw can also be used as anti air.
Her zoning game isn't her damage source, it is used to allow to her build meter , be a threat even at fullscreen range, and use her superior anti air options to push the opponent in the corner, where she's at her best.
- Then , let's take a look at her normals.
Athena has good pokes in s.A , s.B , c.C and far D. Good air to air in s.C (which can be whiff cancelled into phoenix arrow so that you don't eat a c.B into combo when you land) , very good air CD and ground CD , a nice c.A that leaves her at +3 on block , a great anti air in close D and can crossup pretty well with j.B
Her normals are good.
- Now, let's take a look at her special moves/toolset.
I won't talk about her fireball since it's obvious that it's good.
Her A DP is a 4f dp that moves her foward a lot. It gives her yet another anti air , but it's also good to punish things like Andy's Zaneiken on block, or Elisabeth's Coup de Vent. (And yes, it's a good punish, for 1meter 1drive, you get about 420 damage off a dp A punish)
Her C DP is a slow, but fully invincible dp, that does nice damage. Not much to say about it, just your regular DP.
She can reflect fireballs and use her tk phoeniw arrows to build meter from fullscreen if the opponent doesn't want to attack her.
Phoenix Arrow can be used as crossup (EX can lead to combo , even HD ones)
Her teleport can be used to escape corners, like c.C > teleport. Or you can just use her EX teleport, which can be cancelled for free into any of her special moves.
She also has a nice command grab that I'm about to talk about.
And her DM is a 3f , fully invincible dm.
As you can see, between, fully invincible dp, teleport, fireball, reflector, command grab and 3f anti air dm. Athena doesn't lack tools.
- And to finish, I want to talk about her command grab.
Athena's command grab is a 7f fully invincible grab (if you do it at the same time as Ryo's DP, Ryo's DP will whiff and you can punish him).
Since it is a slow, invincible grab, it can be used as anti air , and as a way to beat safe jumps. Also, since after an air reset you have 6f of throw invincibility , you can do it as soon as they hit the ground after and it will throw them.
Her command grab leads to huge damage. A lot more than the likes of Clark can ever hope to do with a grab.
She has a lot of combo potential after her grab. From midscreen 1drive 1meter 450 damage combos , to corner 800 3 meter HD. Her grab leads to HD combos anywhere on the screen by the way, not just corner. Also, speaking of HD, Athena can activate hers from counterhit j.CD and even counterhit ground CD in the corner.
Athena is a very complete character, with a lot of tools and good damage. Saying she is an horrible character is just stupid. No one is bad in this game, especially not Athena.
(I'm sorry for this long post, it may be a bit of a mess, and a bit agressive, but reading such nonsense about Athena really annoys me)
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Athena I think is bottom tier. Horrible character. Has good corner juggles but that's about it.
As a Athena main , reading such things about her annoys me a lot. How is Athena an horrible character ? I don't want to sound mean, but I really think you have no idea what you're talking about.
Trust me, nearly any tier list out there is not only based on ability but style as well. How you play them isn't always the same as how they can be played; your great write-up is proof there. And don't worry, it always takes one awesome Athena to show everyone how "low" she is. Plenty of JPN players online have already shown me otherwise.
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It just pains me how misunderstood and underestimated Athena is. She's such a good character in KoF XIII...
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Yeah she can build meter but again, if you want to punish her doing that you're free to do that. That invincible command grab, truth be told if I see someone do that I'm going to bait it and punish. Prove me wrong but I just don't see anything to that character that makes her truly viable.
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Yeah she can build meter but again, if you want to punish her doing that you're free to do that.
How do you punish tk Phoeniw Arrow after blocking a fireball/a knockdown or from fullscreen distance...?
That invincible command grab, truth be told if I see someone do that I'm going to bait it and punish.
Yes, you can bait it. Just like you can bait anything in this game. That doesn't make it any less threatening.
Prove me wrong but I just don't see anything to that character that makes her truly viable
She has a lot of stuff that makes her viable , and I already told you quite a few of them in my previous post. Her command grab alone is enough reason to say that she's viable.
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Yeah she can build meter but again, if you want to punish her doing that you're free to do that. That invincible command grab, truth be told if I see someone do that I'm going to bait it and punish. Prove me wrong but I just don't see anything to that character that makes her truly viable.
I guarantee the only reason you're saying this is because A) You haven't faced a good Athena or B) You're still salty about online Athenas and by proxy will never give an Athena any credit because it doesn't involve rushdown.
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I guarantee the only reason you're saying this is because A) You haven't faced a good Athena or B) You're still salty about online Athenas and by proxy will never give an Athena any credit because it doesn't involve rushdown.
A wise man once said: I calls 'ems likes I sees 'ems.
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I guarantee the only reason you're saying this is because A) You haven't faced a good Athena or B) You're still salty about online Athenas and by proxy will never give an Athena any credit because it doesn't involve rushdown.
A wise man once said: I calls 'ems likes I sees 'ems.
Considering your history of calls via your eyesight, I stand by my statement.
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If you can show me a tournament where an Athena player dominates I'll eat my words. Until then, fat chance little buddy.
And again there's nothing about Athena that sticks out. She has no X factor. There's way better zoning characters and way better hybrid characters with command grabs.
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If you can show me a tournament where an Athena player dominates I'll eat my words. Until then, fat chance little buddy.
And again there's nothing about Athena that sticks out. She has no X factor. There's way better zoning characters and way better hybrid characters with command grabs.
I can show you a tournament for Marvel 3 where Phoenix Wright wins. Tournament results don't mean shit, if you honestly believe Athena is low tier, then any tourney shouldn't change your mind.
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I said dominate, not win once.
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If you can show me a tournament where an Athena player dominates I'll eat my words. Until then, fat chance little buddy.
And again there's nothing about Athena that sticks out. She has no X factor. There's way better zoning characters and way better hybrid characters with command grabs.
I'm not sure why beating everyone in a tournament would be the only proof for Athena being good. There are plenty of other characters that haven't dominated in tournaments that we in fact already know are really good.
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Wut.
3F reversal DM? Beats safe jumps? Sign me up!
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I said dominate, not win once.
Justin dominated a major with Iron Fist. Want me to keep going?
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Wut.
3F reversal DM? Beats safe jumps? Sign me up!
Another interesting trait of her DM is that since it only does one hit, it gets quite a nice damage boost when it hits counter, which happens very often.
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Justin Wong also got 2nd place at UFGT with Athena. Yeah, he didn't do well against Romance, but he did against other seasoned players by just using annoying and basic tactics.
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Justin dominated a major with Iron Fist. Want me to keep going?
Now we're getting into semantics.
1: He was using Iron Fist when the game was still fairly young.
2: It's Justin Wong in Marvel... Come on.
3: It's Marvel, you could do well with practically any character if you have the right team. It doesn't apply to KOF.
4: Jwong was using Athena when the game was young and there weren't high level players that knew what they were doing. As soon as he used Athena against people who knew KOF he was done.
5: To use a 3rd Strike example. Just because Kuroda or TM are absolutely amazing Q players that do amazingly well in tournaments and Ranbats doesn't mean that Q is a really good character. Q is a really bad character and it's a struggle to win with him even if you know what you're doing.
Take for example Bala using Joe. You can't say that a character is good just because a gdlk player will use him from time to time. Bala is at that level and can make Joe (a relatively low tier character, let's be honest here) work for him. How many other people have done nearly as well with Joe? Just saying. I'm not saying Joe is bad, but it can be hard to win with him.
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Then why would it take a dominant performance from someone to change your mind?
If Athena is low tier to you then NOTHING should change your mind.
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Well, you're the one trying to prove she's good and using JWong as an example and I'm poking holes in your theory.
Athena is low, but if I see a specialist like Kauro (just for example) rape with her, then yeah. I will eat my words. If nothing would ever change my mind than that would be a limited way of thinking. I'm open to being proven wrong but I've yet to see that proof. Show me the money.
That Maxima player surprised me for sure, I'd still say that Maxi is hard to win with but that guy using him was fucking amazing.
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I'm not trying to prove she's good because I have nothing to prove to you. You can believe whatever you want for all I care.
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I'm not trying to prove she's good because I have nothing to prove to you. You can believe whatever you want for all I care.
Yeah, exactly...everyone is entitled to their opinions no matter how ridiculous they are...and to be honest, who cares?
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KOF XIII Tier List:
An overall ranking assigned based on the total number of tools, strengths and weaknesses each character possesses.
S: Mr. Karate, Hwa, Kyo (XIII), Benimaru, Kyo (EX), Iori (EX), Takuma, Goro
A+: Kim, Iori (Claw), Yuri, Elisabeth, Robert, Andy, Billy, Saiki, K’, Shen
A: Duo Lon, Kensou, Chin, Kula, Joe, Mature
B+: Leona, Ash, Vice, Athena, Ryo, Raiden, King, Terry
B: Ralf, Clark, Mai, Maxima
Potential Based on Position:
A ranking assigned to each character based on how strong they are when compared to other characters in the same position on the team (first/second/third). Essentially a tier list for each spot on the team.
Andy: A+/A/B+
Ash: B/B+/A
Athena: A/B+/B
Benimaru: A+/S/S
Billy: A/A/A
Chin: A/A/A+
Clark: B+/B/B
Duo Lon: A/B+/B
Elisabeth: A/A/A
Goro: B+/A+/S
Hwa: A+/S/S
Iori (Claw): A/A+/S
Iori (EX): S/A+/A+
Joe: B/B+/A
K’: A/A/A
Kensou: A/A/A
Kim: S/A/A
King: A/B+/B
Kula: A/A/B+
Kyo (XIII): S/A+/A+
Kyo (EX): S/A+/A
Leona: B/B+/A+
Mai: B/B+/B+
Mature: A/B+/B+
Maxima: B/B+/B+
Mr. Karate: S/S/S
Raiden: B+/B+/A
Ralf: A/B+/B+
Robert: S/A/B+
Ryo: A/B+/B+
Saiki: B+/A/S
Shen: B/A/S
Takuma: A+/S/S
Terry: B/B+/B+
Vice: B/B+/A
Yuri: B+/A+/S
Top 10 Batteries:
A list of the characters who both build meter very quickly, while also having many tools and strong damage options with no meter or drive.
Mr. Karate - No bad matchups, amazing at everything.
Kyo (XIII) - Also no bad matchups, good at everything, needs corner more than Karate does.
Kyo (EX) - Very strong normals, safe pressure, auto guard bullshit.
Kim - Safe as hell, fast as hell, strong as hell.
Iori (EX) - Every tool, he’s goddamn Iori.
Duo Lon - Fast fast fast, scary mixups. Hope you like blocking.
Billy - Amazing normals, safe pressure, good meter building and cost-effective combos.
Robert - Every tool in the game, meterless, so why not?
Andy - See Robert, but without grab and with higher damage.
Hwa - Like Kim until he gets a drink in him, then he’s like Mr. Karate + Takuma combined.
Honourable Mentions:
Kensou
Ralf
King
Athena
Mature
Top 10 Anchors:
Characters who have many tools and extremely high damage potential with high resources.
Hwa - Stupid damage, can start 800+ damage combos (non-HD) from any hit, and lands hits well
Mr. Karate - No bad matchups, amazing at everything, and now with high damage!
Benimaru - Throw combos, rekkas, zoning, crossups, he has it all.
Takuma - Touch of death. The end.
Goro - Grab touch of near death. The end is near.
Shen - Don’t jump! Don’t not jump! Don’t get hit! At all!
Saiki - Good zoning and defensive tools; insanely strong HD combo in the corner.
Iori (EX) - Every tool needed to get into HD mode.
Kyo (XIII) - Like EX Iori minus without grab > HD.
Iori (Claw) - Great pressure, great mixups, great damage. Lacks zoning tools.
Honourable Mentions:
Yuri
Chin
Leona
Kim
Elisabeth
Top 10 1 Meter and/or 1 Drive Potential (Ideal Middle Characters):
This is essentially an assessment of a character’s EX and Drive Cancel usefulness alongside their tools with low to medium resources.
Hwa - Who else nearly kills you from a mid-screen invulnerable shoryu?
Takuma - Who else nearly kills you from a mid-screen meterless grab?
Mr. Karate - Have you been paying attention so far?
Benimaru - Every tool needed to land big damage without HD.
Chin - Drunk combos are scary, very strong defense and tricky offense.
Kyo (XIII) - Doesn’t really need meter but can use it to increase his already great damage.
Joe - 1 drive and 1 meter gives him access to ridiculous combo potential in the corner.
Yuri - With meter and drive her offense, defense and combo potential all skyrocket.
Goro - Meter and drive allow him to turn his grabs into amazing damage. Gains an overhead.
Iori (Claw) - High damage mid-screen and even higher damage in the corner.
Honourable Mentions:
Billy
Shen
Iori (EX)
Terry
K’
This is a well thought-out tier list of the entire cast based on which position on the team that they are most effective in, how their gameplay changes based on the amount of meter/drive they have and how they compare to one another in the team placement scenario. The tier list was mainly done by Sami (t3h mAsTarOth...!) and Matt Alder over the course of roughly the last 6 months.
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wow what a list the only thing i would question is goro but then maybe i wouldnt he could just stand still and wait for people to come at him....
it sucks 2 see my 2 characters (Ralf and Clark) at the bottom of the list but thatjust gives me more of a reason 2 use them..
And i do have to ask y is it that Ralf is the only 1 who starts of at an A and moves down when it comes to his position???that blew me away
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And i do have to ask y is it that Ralf is the only 1 who starts of at an A and moves down when it comes to his position???that blew me away
im curious about this as well. i play mature 2nd...she seems a lot stronger with meter so i never put her on point. does she go down in tier on 2nd and 3rd because of the execution needed for some of her longer/meter burning combos or...?
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That's a pretty well thought tier list~
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And i do have to ask y is it that Ralf is the only 1 who starts of at an A and moves down when it comes to his position???that blew me away
im curious about this as well. i play mature 2nd...she seems a lot stronger with meter so i never put her on point. does she go down in tier on 2nd and 3rd because of the execution needed for some of her longer/meter burning combos or...?
When they move down in tiers as middle/anchor, it's because they are being compared to other characters in the same position. They obviously become a better character with more meter, it's just that other characters might gain more utility from having extra meter/drive.
In Mature's case, she only gains a bit of extra damage and an invincible shoryu. Her HD is also not that great. Where if you would compare her to someone like Yuri with a bit of meter, Yuri gains stronger reversals, a combo off of a 1 frame throw, an invincible + safe hcb+BD and a damaging HD.
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I don't agree with Clark and Ralf's placement in the slightest but I realized that this is based on character usage at Evo. It really disappointed me to see so few Clark and even Billy players aside from Bala.
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Unless I'm mistaken, this is a general tier list and it's not based on character usage at Evo. They just waited for Evo to be over to release their list.
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Yeah it's just a general tier list. We were kinda waiting for Evo to maybe move some characters around. The only thing we changed as a result of Evo was Kim's placement. We had him still listed as one of the best batteries, but not quite as high as he is now. Lacking any zoning or grappling tools whatsoever really don't hold him back from being one of the best characters in the game. His rushdown is just ridiculous.
Since this is XIII, even the characters on the lowest tier have competitive viability. Even Maxima or Mai (who are generally agreed upon as being the worst characters) have some unique tools and can potentially wreck people.
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I have to say, that is a very thorough and well thought out tier list. I'm also impressed how you ranked characters based on team position, and how you gave descriptions on some characters' abilities/strengths.
You and whoever else made this list did a great job.
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Awesome list, but I have two questions.
Number 1, why didn't you do the same for points and only anchors and batteries? I'm not sure if by batteries you mean points, (what I use for the word first) or mids (2nd) maybe my terminology is wrong or something.
Number 2: Benimaru - Throw combos, rekkas, zoning, crossups, he has it all.
Since when does Beni have rekkas? Do mean defense against rekkas?
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That knee into flip kick is essentially a rekka.
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By batteries he means point characters, characters that can build meter well/fight well without meter.
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I don't think Hwa should be in the top tier category. He has some great stuff but also some flaws. Maybe in the category below the top tiers (Mr Karate etc.)
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No, he's definitely a top character. His footsies are amazingly good for the most part and when he's Drunk, forget about it. If he's got you in the corner and he's Drunk, good luck to ya'.
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Thanks guys... Anyone can post regarding character positioning in the tier list... I myself am probably going to move Raiden up... His damage potential is too high...
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No, he's definitely a top character. His footsies are amazingly good for the most part and when he's Drunk, forget about it. If he's got you in the corner and he's Drunk, good luck to ya'.
Not if you have air grab. There are ways to stop Drunk Hwa especially in the corner with characters like Clark.
I just do(during blockstun) ;fd ;df ;uf+ ;c ;df If he does dragon tail, Clark will most likely grab it, if not, you will stay on the ground and go back into blocking and create a small alternate guard. You can always guard cancel roll to safety as well.
However, I do think Hwa is top 8 character in the game.
That knee into flip kick is essentially a rekka.
Yeah it is.
I have disagreements with the list. I guess it is okay, but some people are underrated such as Clark, Ralf, Claw Iori(he's easily in the top bracket and is one of the best anchors in the game), and Maxima.
I have made two lists now, one is a more breakdown in general of who are the best on the game and the other is based on technicality and Damage.
Tier list based on Faults/Weaknesses (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trll2wna2v6678nc9268cd794a6aaena7e7w7aec7gcg499c7dk07fbfai8z49go4yp08y9d5p5k4baz7eap4agl7ee4489paglo7fic7ed3ainf50cn7e80afp07fk150lp4yib50p34zoy2t-bkg-naNagato1992)
The top characters imo is the 3 listed but in no particular order. Meaning Kyo does not necessarily loses to MK and Beni, or vice versa for all 3. They play all positions on the highest level and are the best in the game in my opinion.
The first row to the left are probably the best anchors in the game but have faults because they need meter. They can still be played on point or second but sooo much stronger if anchor. So they play anchor on the highest level along with the top 3.
The second row to the right is the best point characters in the game. They also play anchor really well but due to their damage restraints, I would always put them first or second, but primarily first especially K.'
The third row(along with takuma being the best of this area imo) are the characters that have TOD's or can blow you up if they get started. However, they can get zoned or safe jumped because of no real options besides game mechanics. Can play secondary and point at really good levels, but right behind the characters in second row (right).
Third row right(including Liz and Robert) are the gimmicky characters that can really force you to do stupid shit and punish you big time for it. Probably should have put Kim on this side, but he has faults due to zoners on this specific row. I say they are the best secondary characters because they build meter well for your anchor, and if you are good enough, can beat the opponents second and get their anchor to 50% if not 25% life before they go down. Even if you do get them there, they are good batteries for anchor because they're going to build meter regardless unless you make an HD mistake or something similar.
Fourth row left(including Chin) are the weaker(yet still good) characters in the game that play point more well than any other position. They are here because of the damage constraints, unsafe pressure, and as well as the "random neomax" options that can fuck you up(one of the reasons a character like Leona is good). Chin is an exception because he has stronger strings and gets better when he is drunk. He is the best of this bunch imo and probably a lot better than I have displayed him.
Duo Lon I think is the weakest character because of his unsafe strings, low damage output overall. He is still good with his instant overheads and his CD glitch, but I don't think he is as strong as everyone else. I was going to put Mai down here, but due to new game exploits and her stun combo, she shows herself to be very dangerous in the right hands. I still don't think she is in the Upper-Mid bracket yet.
TBH though, I think this game would probably need a matchup list instead of the ABC list. I want to make one but I am still unsure on some of the matchups in the game. However, I do know most of Claw Iori, Kim, Ex Iori, Beni, both Kyo's, K, Andy, Shen, Joe, and Hwa matchups. But thats not enough to make a matchup list lol. I would like some feedback as well if anyone has anything to share.
Tier list based on Technicality and Damage (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trlv3how7amwhe8yjy5ljyoy2ubo3lk4alg7hchvhdndeok2eqdhdfb17jn8jyljjyigakndd1p0d2l7hek2d1jjhdgtakeeftec7kcpftbtdelod2ltakco7k7ajya5dfozepg87knl3ilpep-bkb-naNagato1992)
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Very nice Nagato, I love how everyone is making tier lists with different criteria, it's very interesting.
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Oh hey Nagato, didn't expect to see you here.
Here's my tier list (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tr6ljn6zjh5jkw5sla6yjw6ok8qy0ai12jjl4ep04a5r2sqq3jjq2hhp4clk4an92vgi2hnf4f5akv6tj85dkl76js5gkp5dkw59l75vky5pkw71jt60ji68jc66kulj2n5tl67pjq6el8oy2t-bkg-naRunningWild)
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Looks like we've come a long ways from the days of K' Raiden Andy dominating the top tier.
Seems like so long ago now....
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Looks like we've come a long ways from the days of K' Raiden Betty Kula dominating the top tier.
Fixed for you.
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I have disagreements with the list. I guess it is okay, but some people are underrated such as Clark, Ralf, Claw Iori(he's easily in the top bracket and is one of the best anchors in the game), and Maxima.
Claw Iori is very good, we had him in the 9th spot on S tier until only a few weeks ago, but really he lacks quite a lot. Compare him to Hwa Jai. Hwa has a better version of every single offensive tool that Claw has going for him, deals far more damage as well as having better defensive tools. Claw severely lacks defensive tools and zoning tools, and his grappling game is decent at best with a slow 9f grab that has horrible range, and an EX grab that's not even instant (still 5f startup), so it's somewhat easier to bait than most. While he's pretty good with pressure and can deal massive damage, he just suffers severely from a few bad matchups, namely every character on the S tier. He still has amazing normals and can deal absurd damage with HD, but he can be kept out fairly easily by any character with solid zoning tools/far reaching normals since the removal or severe nerfing of the invulnerability on all of his EX moves from the arcade version.
I think people that think of Hwa Jai as lacking in certain aspects don't actually know Hwa Jai very well. He literally lacks nothing. Zoning? If you throw a fireball at him, he can shoryu through it for an 800+ damage combo anywhere. Qcb+B/D pressure is NOT something that Hwa should be doing. He's actually got frame advantage after d/f+B slide, meaning he has no need to ever use his qcb+B/D outside of combos. He's got a 0f 2F (Fixed. -Kane317) grab, an invulnerable halfscreen grab, an invulnerable halfscreen attack that gives Hwa advantage on block, and he can win games entirely relying on his borderline broken A/B poke game (considering any normal he touches you with could lead into a literal death combo without even using HD). Basically whichever range you're fighting in, Hwa has an answer to every situation. He doesn't have a single bad matchup.
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The second row to the right is the best point characters in the game. They also play anchor really well but due to their damage restraints, I would always put them first or second, but primarily first especially K.'
To be honest, I don't think K' is best on point in this game, at least not anymore. You really do need to spend meter with him to get the max benefit of his tools. It may have been a different story in arcade where Trigger was much safer and you got stronger midscreen combos, but now he seems almost reliant on meter. On the other hand, he's not exactly the best anchor either, which makes me feel that second is the best place for him. First works great, but he's extremely versatile as the middle character.
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How to beat Hwa -
Block low.
/gg
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Or use Yomi. Hwa is beatable but yeah, it can be a bitch. As for me because I main him I see no problems with his placement :) .
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Not if you have air grab. There are ways to stop Drunk Hwa especially in the corner with characters like Clark. . .
Duo Lon I think is the weakest character because of his unsafe strings, low damage output overall. He is still good with his instant overheads and his CD glitch, but I don't think he is as strong as everyone else.
Definitely agree. Hwa is good but doesn't belong up there with kyo and karate. Lon maybe mid tier.
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How to beat Hwa -
Block low.
/gg
And get grabbed for 340 damage? I think people are underestimating him quite a bit. There is more to Hwa Jai then spamming qcb+D ;)
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If people arent convinced after evo... Just look at the 5 most used characters... Karate, Hwa, Kim, Ex Iori, Shen...
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Most of the Kim players where Korean tho, and they tend to be a bit biased towards Korean characters. I mean every single Korean TEKKEN player has a pocket Hwoarang ;)
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I have disagreements with the list. I guess it is okay, but some people are underrated such as Clark, Ralf, Claw Iori(he's easily in the top bracket and is one of the best anchors in the game), and Maxima.
Claw Iori is very good, we had him in the 9th spot on S tier until only a few weeks ago, but really he lacks quite a lot. Compare him to Hwa Jai. Hwa has a better version of every single offensive tool that Claw has going for him, deals far more damage as well as having better defensive tools. Claw severely lacks defensive tools and zoning tools, and his grappling game is decent at best with a slow 9f grab that has horrible range, and an EX grab that's not even instant (still 5f startup), so it's somewhat easier to bait than most. While he's pretty good with pressure and can deal massive damage, he just suffers severely from a few bad matchups, namely every character on the S tier. He still has amazing normals and can deal absurd damage with HD, but he can be kept out fairly easily by any character with solid zoning tools/far reaching normals since the removal or severe nerfing of the invulnerability on all of his EX moves from the arcade version.
I think people that think of Hwa Jai as lacking in certain aspects don't actually know Hwa Jai very well. He literally lacks nothing. Zoning? If you throw a fireball at him, he can shoryu through it for an 800+ damage combo anywhere. Qcb+B/D pressure is NOT something that Hwa should be doing. He's actually got frame advantage after d/f+B slide, meaning he has no need to ever use his qcb+B/D outside of combos. He's got a 0f 2F (Fixed. -Kane317) grab, an invulnerable halfscreen grab, an invulnerable halfscreen attack that gives Hwa advantage on block, and he can win games entirely relying on his borderline broken A/B poke game (considering any normal he touches you with could lead into a literal death combo without even using HD). Basically whichever range you're fighting in, Hwa has an answer to every situation. He doesn't have a single bad matchup.
Hwa has NO bad matchup? LOL, he has tons of bad ones. Without meter Hwa can easily get mauled since he has no really good wakup game. ;a Dragon Kick can get safejumped by the entire cast and since Dragon Backbreaker startup is 1 frame and the ;c version has tons of startup(which can be jumped). This is how I see Hwa.
Hwa(not drunk):
- Can get rushed down relatively easy.
- Unsafe strings unless slide hits at the tip(which is the only time it is + frame advantage)
- Has no real option to get over fireballs unless he spends meter to get drunk or try and backbreaker. Backbreaker is not full screen so he can get gimmicked.
Hwa(When drunk):
- RUSH HIM DOWN. Even when he's drunk, he still has 2 options outside of game given stuff. He either Backbreaker or Dragonkick. You can take the dragonkick and force him to burn a lot of meter to convert from a A DK unless in the corner.
- If he gets any offense going just fuck everything and alternate guard, spend the meter to get out of Dodge City.
I think Hwa's bad matchups are:
Ash( I have tested this with Joe and Hwa. They CANNOT slide under Ash's fireball.)
Kim
Kyo
Mr. K
Takuma
Andy
Clark
King(can run away and Hwa cant do really anything to stop her unless he is drunk. Even then, King has probably the best keepaway in the game along with Ash if she's played at the highest level)
Benimaru
Those are all I know off the top of my head. His good matchups are(either 5/5 or 6/4 depending on meter and stuff):
Both Iori's(Blasphemy! But it's true, this is either 5/5 or 6/4. Claw Iori can win this fairly easy but still may be a 5/5, which I may explain later.)
Saiki(fireball < ELECTRIC SLIDE)
EX Kyo
Joe
Athena
Hwa has good/bad matchups and he can easily turn them around when he gets drunk, but if you don't let him get drunk and pressure him, your winning chances is as good as Hwa's. Also, I think if Hwa had no weaknesses, he would be on every team in finals. Look at vanilla Saggot, he had no weaknesses and almost everyone ran with that character.
As for Claw, I think he is still contender for for top 8 in the game because of his special moves. They are not used enough imo. 214 ;c has lower body invincibility almost all the way through the move(which means slide from Hwa < this move). 214 ;a does not have much lower body invincibility, but the second hit has very high priority and can stop hop attempts. I tested it against Ralf's hyperhop forward ;c ;d as well at Clark/King/Kyo/Hwa/Joe. It either win's or trades with their air moves. Claw Iori has really amazing especially at Anchor. He builds meter well, and EX Shiki Yaotome(maiden masher) is one of the best ex supers in the game. With his options after this super or just the normal one, you can really create a heavy offense easily locking the opponent down. As for keeping him out, it is easy when he does not have meter. This is why I say at anchor he is strongest because he does not have to worry about obtaining meter since it is given to him. I can't tell you how many reverse OCV's I have done with Claw Iori alone. Not to mention I think he may be a counter pick to Shen in some way.
Most of the Kim players where Korean tho, and they tend to be a bit biased towards Korean characters. I mean every single Korean TEKKEN player has a pocket Hwoarang ;)
I laughed too hard at this. Sad thing is that it is true.
If people arent convinced after evo... Just look at the 5 most used characters... Karate, Hwa, Kim, Ex Iori, Shen...
EX Iori is tradition to be played a lot. EVERYONE is familiar with him.
The second row to the right is the best point characters in the game. They also play anchor really well but due to their damage restraints, I would always put them first or second, but primarily first especially K.'
To be honest, I don't think K' is best on point in this game, at least not anymore. You really do need to spend meter with him to get the max benefit of his tools. It may have been a different story in arcade where Trigger was much safer and you got stronger midscreen combos, but now he seems almost reliant on meter. On the other hand, he's not exactly the best anchor either, which makes me feel that second is the best place for him. First works great, but he's extremely versatile as the middle character.
K' is not the best point on the game but he is one of the best. He goes at 1st or 2nd really well and he still blows up a good bit of the cast.
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The post on hwa is not bad by nagato... But you missed out all his normals... He has one of the best s.D or s.A or s.C+D or j.C+D... And slide... Also you can't just block against a good Hwa or he'll tick throw you (alternate guard won't work)... All the characters you mentioned that can zone him, he can just hyper hop their FBs... Also if you eat any of his DPs while drun, you will loose at least 500+ anywhere on screen with 1 drive...
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The post on hwa is not bad by nagato... But you missed out all his normals... He has one of the best s.D or s.A or s.C+D or j.C+D... And slide... Also you can't just block against a good Hwa or he'll tick throw you (alternate guard won't work)... All the characters you mentioned that can zone him, he can just hyper hop their FBs... Also if you eat any of his DPs while drunk, you will loose at least 500+ anywhere on screen with 1 drive...
s. ;c ;d from Hwa is his best move. I play Hwa as well, but like I said, if he gets an offense going he can really wreck your shit. That is why his only flaw is close range defense and getting drunk. As for the zoners, you are right to an extend. If Hwa goes against a mix character who has great zoning abilities and great offense, that is when he has trouble. Andy is very strong against Hwa because he can safejump him, has a DP for those hyperhop attempts over fireballs. He can super the hops as well since Chou Reppadan has invul. startup. Andy just has to watch for slide beating Zaneikan and pressure Hwa as much as possible. I play both characters and I have played the Andy(me in his shoes)/Hwa match up quite a lot. I had trouble with Hwa at first then I realized that Hwa cannot punish Andy from a safejump setup(like grab, zaneikan, normal jump D) when usually its not a safejump. Hwa Jai's AA DKick is 8 frames startup so you can easily safejump it with a lot of people. Hwa is just like any other character with amazing offense. Characters like him lack true offensive options so they can get blown up relatively fast if you rush them down and put your knee into their gut. He has one of the top offenses in the game, but if you use everything the game gives to you in terms of mechanics and your character, you will come out topping Hwa. I'd say he is A+ ONLY if drunk, but without it he is A- at best. He is very good, but he is NOT S. A perfect example is Raph vs Reynald at FinalRound. You can say it was because of Benimaru, but overall Hwa's defense is not that good. You can easily bait out his backbreaker.
KOF13 Top 16 AS Reynald vs OAR Ralph - FR XV - Road to Evo 2012 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ3EtVg6HdQ#ws)
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I also think that Hwa is very overrated because of his damage when drunk and while he's a good character, he's definitely not as good as someone like EX Iori.
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Disagree. Drunk Hwa is just amazingly good. If you make one mistake with him and he has at least 1 drive and 1-2 bars that's going to be at least 700-800 damage. EX Iori just doesn't have that, he's still amazingly good though.
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And get grabbed for 340 damage? I think people are underestimating him quite a bit. There is more to Hwa Jai then spamming qcb+D ;)
It's called fuzzy guard, it's been in KOF since forever.
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Hwa's slide is never negative on block unless you do it without cancelling into it. s.B, s.A or whatever cancelled into slide will leave you at least a +0, if not better. And I also wouldn't say that crouch-blocking Hwa is a great plan, as his hyperhop D WILL cross you up, leading to midscreen crossup pressure strings. His light normals also hit crouchers and give him massive advantage on block, giving him amazing pressure and grab setups.
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Everyones thoughts on Ralf? I dont see him very often at all and I have just recently picked him up. I sort of need a Benimaru break (I use Beni point) and Ralf seems like a decent point character. I see weaknesses and can kind of tell he will have some bad matchups.... but he definitely has some godlike buttons and nasty frame trap game. I dont think he is necasarily tops or high but he really seems like a pretty competitive character even though not too many people use him.
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And get grabbed for 340 damage? I think people are underestimating him quite a bit. There is more to Hwa Jai then spamming qcb+D ;)
It's called fuzzy guard, it's been in KOF since forever.
You cant fuzzy guard forever. With that mentality, all commandgrabs would be usless in this game, wich is defenitly not the case. And alternative guard opens you up to low hits aswell. Hwa Jais big weakness is his really bad/floaty jump, but his superb ground game and absurd damage of random hits makes up for it big time.
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Everyones thoughts on Ralf? I dont see him very often at all and I have just recently picked him up. I sort of need a Benimaru break (I use Beni point) and Ralf seems like a decent point character. I see weaknesses and can kind of tell he will have some bad matchups.... but he definitely has some godlike buttons and nasty frame trap game. I dont think he is necasarily tops or high but he really seems like a pretty competitive character even though not too many people use him.
You hit the basics of him right there. He's got great normals, tight frame pressure, and solid damage. His issues come against strong zoning and when he's on the defensive. He has no legit answer to zoning, he isn't good at covering his head or going air-to-air if the opponent is outside his jump CD range. He also doesn't have reliable reversals. I've seen him played around the board, but he seems to be favored on point where the opponent doesn't have as much meter to use against him. I'm not that knowledgeable about him, but there's what I know in a general sense.
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K' is not the best point on the game but he is one of the best. He goes at 1st or 2nd really well and he still blows up a good bit of the cast.
Not quite what I was getting at, I'm not saying he's not a good point, I just don't think the point position is best for him. He really does do a lot better in this game when he has some extra meter hanging around for EX Trigger.
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Hwa's slide is never negative on block unless you do it without cancelling into it. s.B, s.A or whatever cancelled into slide will leave you at least a +0, if not better.
That's not true, s.A into slide is at least -1 coz you can get 1F command grabbed.
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He meant s.A, s.A, s.A, d/f+B
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I thought frame counts weren't cumulative???
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They aren't. That blockstring creates space between the opponent and Hwa Jai , so that his slide hits on the last active frames, giving him more advantage on block.
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He meant s.A, s.A, s.A, d/f+B
Ah I see. I read it "either s.A or s.B into df B".
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Kim, Shen, and Mr. Karate are considered high-tier characters here. Cafe:Id members just don’t play Mr.Karate because they think he’s not fun to play. Cafe:Id members usually choose fun characters to play, not strong characters. Guts and Verna also chose EX-Iori because he’s fun to play. In this case, EX-Iori is strong as well. KoFXIII is really well balanced. If you put your time and effort into any characters, they can be strong, except Robert and Athena (they just suck…).
In your face Satsuo. In your face!
(http://i56.tinypic.com/s4tbug.gif)
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LOL Mad KoF agrees with me that Robert sucks! haha I am now officially gonna be a low tier hero. (^_−)☆
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i have a really tough time against robert myself. i feel pretty free against any decent robert. why does he suck so bad? what do i capitalize on in the match that makes him incapable of being a good character?
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Well, MadKof also said they considered Billy sucked and changed their mind after EVO, so nothing to worry about.
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Robert "just sucks"? SMH.
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I don't agree with Robert sucking, he has everything needed and then some. also I'm pretty sure he is the only character with a walljump, not that that is a game changer or anything, but it's something to consider.
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I don't agree with Robert sucking, he has everything needed and then some. also I'm pretty sure he is the only character with a walljump, not that that is a game changer or anything, but it's something to consider.
Mai also has a wall jump.
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Here are two tier lists that I made... This is the best I can come up with as of now, but things will change in due time.
This is my basic KOFXIII tier list:
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tr782r8x4e5lf7dtc1c9ae794e78ibanah78f7787cc82scaf78w2r8zc15l2s90ai8xf6cbc0al4f8w7bdtaf7ac37baianc1h6ae5mc3amf65mai5licfgc1fhagc87c5k7c5l4fak7cak2s-bk8 (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-tr782r8x4e5lf7dtc1c9ae794e78ibanah78f7787cc82scaf78w2r8zc15l2s90ai8xf6cbc0al4f8w7bdtaf7ac37baianc1h6ae5mc3amf65mai5licfgc1fhagc87c5k7c5l4fak7cak2s-bk8)
Here is another tier list:
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trl94gjl2scpcdhu8acp8ted2soje1mvaijle0g98bec6nece2cp2redaimx2sjjail8cdg8aiaf2rg82p9v8thwcdcpai87ahojcdmwcd6jahojaiedfql7aijkcejh8bjl4gl92smy4fol2t-bkg-naGDH%20 (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trl94gjl2scpcdhu8acp8ted2soje1mvaijle0g98bec6nece2cp2redaimx2sjjail8cdg8aiaf2rg82p9v8thwcdcpai87ahojcdmwcd6jahojaiedfql7aijkcejh8bjl4gl92smy4fol2t-bkg-naGDH%20)
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David' I also dont think that Robert sucks. He can confirm his hit, he has a command grab, he has an anti air, good wake up, good normals, good air CD, has a cross-up and activates HD easily.
Maybe I am missing something here, I mean you played him alot could you explain please why you think that robert sucks?
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the fact that robert and mai have wall jumps are pretty significant considering how corner pressure works in this game. if they jump back you have to guess, are they gonna wall jump or just jump back? being able to jump that high and still have options is really good.
they also said athena is low tier. pshhhh. i don't think so. someone just needs to show them a good robert and athena! that's all.
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I've said it before, there are lots of reasons why robert's tools are all mediocre:
His A uppercut lacks lower body invincibility. His C uppercut, although invincible, starts up slowly and can easily be safe jumped.
His command grab does not convert to combos. It is also slow and lacks any invincibility. His EX command grab scales everything extremely hard, to the point that it's not even worth using, unless you do it raw in the corner.
All of his far standing normals whiff on crouchers, except st. D. Stand D has horrible recovery. This makes Robert's midscreen footsie game risky in every instance, as he either has to commit to a fast low (A or B) or risk getting hit by a low if he throws out st. C or D.
His fwd A. is completely unsafe on block. As time goes on and people learn how to punish, this tool will become harder and harder to use.
His dive kick is completely unsafe on block unless you hit them at the ankles. The practicality of this move for offense is just non existent as of right now, unless you use the EX version. Even at the ankles, no version of his dive kick grants frame advantage.
All versions of his flying kick are unsafe, although most characters require meter to punish the B version. All versions of lighting legs are also unsafe. On hit, EX lighting legs gives the opponent over 50% meter and close to 50% drive (WTF??). Even though you can drive cancel his regular lighting legs, THEY DON'T GRANT A JUGGLE STATE and Robert has no anywhere juggles (srsly, WTFF???). When you think about it, although he has lots of tools, many of them simply aren't that great. The ONLY special move he has which is consistently safe on block is his point blank fireball, which you must cancel into.
His midscreen HD combos are ridiculously space positioning specific. He has optimal combos at every range, but these combos change and won't work if you are one character length left or right of exactly where you should be. The only combo that works at all ranges within 80% of the stage away from the corner involves using EX lighting legs. He has no coast to coast HD. Doing this combos give the opponent 2.5 bars and 70% HD meter, which is ridiculous. It simply requires wayyy more effort to optimize his HD combos than it does for ANY of the top tier characters. Also, I don't want to complain about execution, but his drive cancel dive kick from C uppercut is quite hard, and easy to screw up. So are his C uppercut drive canceled into A fireball and midscreen A uppercut drive canceled into A fireball for juggles during his HD. These cancels are all NECESSARY for his optimized HDs.
His wall jump is really cool, but when people start anticipating it (and they definitely do!), you really can't use it for mixup. No matter if you just jump back or jump back wall jump, either way people can jump with you and hit you, or just stay on the ground. My training partners can attest to this. It's one of those tools which, like his fwd A, will become less useful as opponents become better at punishing it.
These are all the reasons Robert sucks. Obviously, even in this game being bottom tier still means you're viable. I'd put Robert in the low B range in terms of tier. With this said, he has some awesome things. His j. CD has so much horizontal range and is soooo fast, although it whiffs on crouchers. His sweep is also fast and has great range. His EX ranbu super is also gdlk because it's invincible. Of course, who doesn't fucking love taco crossups? However, when you consider these "good tools", they still pale in comparison to many other top and high tier characters.
There you have it people, that's my full blown opinion on Robert. I'll still play him, just because i've invested so much time into him. But, imo, anyone who says "robert is a great character" is wrong. He's mediocre at best.
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And also, I agree with Choysauce about Athena. Athena is fucking cheap as shit, fuck that character. Possible secret top tier, imo. The only reason I believe this is because of Team Chaos Yoshi lol that guy's Athena is CHEAP!!!
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Meh, his only glaring weakness is HD. Even then you can land a piss easy 800+ damage combo if you have three bars.
A lot of unsafe moves? That can be said about a lot of the cast (especially Kyo). Reminds me of Musolini complaining about console Kim because he didn't have any safe spammable moves (like his QCB+B in the arcade), we all saw how that turned out for Kim. Ignored at first but pretty much top tier now.
Safe jumpable DP? Say hi to most of the DPs in the game.
Sounds like you want a broken character (all his tools plus having them safe plus having high damage off everything) instead of what we have now , a balanced one.
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Thanks for the break down David. I agree with Diavle here though. Yes' Robert is lacking in many ways but if they made him safe in most of his specials he'll be broken. The only thing that needs correction and thats "if" it needs correction is that he builds his opponent's meter quite alot. Thats my opinion atleast.
P.S. his hit confirm (cr.b, st. a or cr.a into frw.b) Is really good IMO you can start HD quite easily with that.
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Meh, his only glaring weakness is HD. Even then you can land a piss easy 800+ damage combo if you have three bars.
Mind telling me what combo this is? And does it work midscreen? I find this hard to believe, as someone who has spent tons of hours trying to find optimal HDs with Robert.
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Mind telling me what combo this is? And does it work midscreen? I find this hard to believe, as someone who has spent tons of hours trying to find optimal HDs with Robert.
Works anywhere, HD and 3 bars:
jD, sC, f+B, DP+A or C [Super Cancel] Ranbu, Neomax (max cancel on final hit of Ranbu)
If you want a bit of extra damage then you can DC into a fireball after the DP before super canceling into Ranbu.
Over 800dmg iirc. Can also be started via lows using the hit confirm Tyrant mentioned above and also using just low Bs.
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Sounds like you want a broken character (all his tools plus having them safe plus having high damage off everything) instead of what we have now , a balanced one.
I'm definitely not saying I want a broken character. I'm simply pointing out all of Robert's weaknesses, because I was asked to do so.
But, IMO, some things definitely need to be buffed for Robert to be considered mid tier (in this game meaning A-).
1. EX lighting legs need to build the opponent 1/3 of the meter that it currently does.
2. The window for drive canceling C uppercut into dive kick needs to be 2 or 3 frames longer
3. The startup of regular lighting legs needs to be faster so that it can connect mid screen after Drive canceled C uppercut to dive kick
4. Drive canceling regular lighting legs should grant a juggle state.
5. Stand D should have faster recovery, by 2 or 3 frames.
6. The last hit of EX Ranbu, where Robert flys up and kicks you, should be Max cancelable in HD.
These changes are all fair and would instantly give Robert consistent midscreen HD combo options. Stand D would actually give him a solid ground game with less risk.
(sigh) A man can wish... In any case, do any of you actually main Robert? If so, are you guys tournament players? I really get frustrated when I hear everyone saying that Robert is good, when in fact his many tools aren't as good as people think they are. At least he's not as bad as Mai! hahaha
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Mind telling me what combo this is? And does it work midscreen? I find this hard to believe, as someone who has spent tons of hours trying to find optimal HDs with Robert.
Works anywhere, HD and 3 bars:
jD, sC, f+B, DP+A or C [Super Cancel] Ranbu, Neomax (max cancel on final hit of Ranbu)
If you want a bit of extra damage then you can DC into a fireball after the DP before super canceling into Ranbu.
Over 800dmg iirc. Can also be started via lows using the hit confirm Tyrant mentioned above and also using just low Bs.
This combo actually is pretty good, thanks! It does 757, but you're right, it can be done anywhere and doesn't build the opponent that much meter. But still, in comparison to high tier character's HD combos, Robert's are still lacking. The standard for midscreen 3 bars plus HD is around 850-900 for top tier.
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is there going to be kof at the runback this week?
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I think one of the commentators at last week's said so.
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There will be provided enough people show up. For the past two weeks the numbers haven't justified having a tournament, because of the post evo burn out.
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thanks for the write up on robert i really appreciate it. i didnt know i could punish his lightning leg at all i thought it was safe. i basically get abused by his classic fireball / lightning leg / divekick tactics that i can never seem to punish. ive been completely oblivious to this match up. do you know the min and max frames that divekick is - on block? divekick sometimes ive punished with cr. B, other times it seems like i cant.
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This combo actually is pretty good, thanks! It does 757, but you're right, it can be done anywhere and doesn't build the opponent that much meter. But still, in comparison to high tier character's HD combos, Robert's are still lacking. The standard for midscreen 3 bars plus HD is around 850-900 for top tier.
I'm home now so can do some confirming:
jD, sC, f+B, HD, sC, f+B, DP+A [DC] qcf+A [SC] Ranbu, Neomax
Does 855 dmg.
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Mind telling me what combo this is? And does it work midscreen? I find this hard to believe, as someone who has spent tons of hours trying to find optimal HDs with Robert.
Works anywhere, HD and 3 bars:
jD, sC, f+B, DP+A or C [Super Cancel] Ranbu, Neomax (max cancel on final hit of Ranbu)
If you want a bit of extra damage then you can DC into a fireball after the DP before super canceling into Ranbu.
Over 800dmg iirc. Can also be started via lows using the hit confirm Tyrant mentioned above and also using just low Bs.
This combo actually is pretty good, thanks! It does 757, but you're right, it can be done anywhere and doesn't build the opponent that much meter. But still, in comparison to high tier character's HD combos, Robert's are still lacking. The standard for midscreen 3 bars plus HD is around 850-900 for top tier.
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/kof-xiii-robert-garcia.164109/ (http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/kof-xiii-robert-garcia.164109/)
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(sigh) A man can wish... In any case, do any of you actually main Robert? If so, are you guys tournament players? I really get frustrated when I hear everyone saying that Robert is good, when in fact his many tools aren't as good as people think they are. At least he's not as bad as Mai! hahaha
I think mai is alot better than you give her credit david, have you played chaotic blue's mai?
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Also, EX Geneikyaku (Lightning Legs) only builds the opponent about 33% of 1 drive. Of all the "really fast multiple hit" type moves though, it does build the most meter for the opponent. Ryo's EX punches build a good amount of meter for his opponent too nearly 1/2 a meter, as does Kensou's.
Mr. Karate's however, barely builds any meter for the opponent (this character...)
As for tournies, unfortunately I don't get the chance to go to any due to my duties. Except for EVO, where I had a chat with you, David, and went 4-2 (1-1 winners, 3-1 losers).
When I get back to the States I'll definitely have to attend more events. ...And learn to drive...
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Robert is A+... Korean tier list is korean... If you notice some of their personal choices are really dumb... Like Duo/Mature as top-tier... Robert is meant to be played as a battery or second... If you play him as an anchor then yes he isn't that great... He is like benimaru and yuri... A character with every tool does not suck...
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Of course Robert has every tool, but I dunno about putting him in the same sentence as Beni and Yuri...
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(sigh) A man can wish... In any case, do any of you actually main Robert? If so, are you guys tournament players? I really get frustrated when I hear everyone saying that Robert is good, when in fact his many tools aren't as good as people think they are. At least he's not as bad as Mai! hahaha
I think mai is alot better than you give her credit david, have you played chaotic blue's mai?
I have played chaotic blue's Mai. No disrespect to him, but my opinion on Mai hasn't changed.
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This combo actually is pretty good, thanks! It does 757, but you're right, it can be done anywhere and doesn't build the opponent that much meter. But still, in comparison to high tier character's HD combos, Robert's are still lacking. The standard for midscreen 3 bars plus HD is around 850-900 for top tier.
I'm home now so can do some confirming:
jD, sC, f+B, HD, sC, f+B, DP+A [DC] qcf+A [SC] Ranbu, Neomax
Does 855 dmg.
Oh I see, I was using fwd B Fwd A into HD, which scales it more.
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Also, EX Geneikyaku (Lightning Legs) only builds the opponent about 33% of 1 drive. Of all the "really fast multiple hit" type moves though, it does build the most meter for the opponent. Ryo's EX punches build a good amount of meter for his opponent too nearly 1/2 a meter, as does Kensou's.
Mr. Karate's however, barely builds any meter for the opponent (this character...)
As for tournies, unfortunately I don't get the chance to go to any due to my duties. Except for EVO, where I had a chat with you, David, and went 4-2 (1-1 winners, 3-1 losers).
When I get back to the States I'll definitely have to attend more events. ...And learn to drive...
AirLancer, I finally took the time to look over your Robert thread. That's some really really good stuff that I had not considered before. haha I feel kinda blown up, there is obviously a lot more to this character than I really considered. Although it a lot of it seems extremely situational, I suppose we still need to wait to see a Robert player really take it to the next level before I, or anyone, can really make judgements on tier.
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AirLancer' thanks for your contribution. It's really useful.
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Really, I only thought about most of this stuff after EVO, when I realized that my Robert wasn't doing much but being very annoying at the back of my team.
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Really, I only thought about most of this stuff after EVO, when I realized that my Robert wasn't doing much but being very annoying at the back of my team.
Yeah' maybe now people could see Robert differently; he needs to be tested more I think.
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My Personal tier list:
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trar2te22sdl4v9r6ued90a94w9g8xg190je91bx4wj42uhq91i36vegbphg2sd46vjs6vf54vgt4xlf6ugg6ul393k34vcn8xb28yie4wbg6vlq4vg7bqes6vmq918l4wkp2sne4vfq2rce2s-bkf (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trar2te22sdl4v9r6ued90a94w9g8xg190je91bx4wj42uhq91i36vegbphg2sd46vjs6vf54vgt4xlf6ugg6ul393k34vcn8xb28yie4wbg6vlq4vg7bqes6vmq918l4wkp2sne4vfq2rce2s-bkf)
This list will indeed change. Always is the more I play. Goes to show this games crazy good balance.
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my question for david kong, why do you play robert if you think he's so bad? even i've put down leona as a sub character, and i've mained her up until recently.
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My philosophy is, when you like a character stick to him/her even if "you" think he's bad as long as he's not broken (too weak or too strong).
Choysauce: please dont drop Leona we need more Leonas out there :P and shes not weak bru.
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Not dropping her, just not gonna keep starting off with her.
Sent from my R800x using Tapatalk 2
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Yeah, Leona with meter at 2nd or 3rd is so much better to behold. That air super... Though, funny thing. Turns out Billy's EX Upkicks beat it. :)
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i think she needs to be in the front now, MAYBE 2nd, never 3rd.
the amount of meter the opponent may have for a punish is severe at 2nd/3rd character slots. and if they guess right once it could just mean death.
with her in the front, it's like the idea of takuma in the front, you earn your right for major damage (build up the hd bar for fattier combos). plus with the opponent having little meter she won't be punished for a bad read, so you can go nuts with her.
also i think her bff is vice right after, or anyone that doesn't need hd meter.
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I dislike Vice. She's basically jCD into EX grab all day. And until I find a solid counter to that shit Clark I will continue to call her gimmicky ;) .
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I dislike Vice. She's basically jCD into EX grab all day. And until I find a solid counter to that shit Clark I will continue to call her gimmicky ;) .
then you've never played real vice players. ~_^ *Ohhhh ho ho ho*
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Vice needs her slash kicks back... I think she's decent... Good combos, good DMs, EXs... Definitely scary with meter...
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My philosophy is, when you like a character stick to him/her even if "you" think he's bad as long as he's not broken (too weak or too strong).
Try not to be offended by this, but that's a very casual way to play a game. You're only wasting your time if you're purposefully playing a character that you, yourself thinks is bad. There's nothing that annoys me more than someone who picks a character that they think sucks and complains about how bad they are, using it as an excuse (to themselves as much as to other people) for losing. I'm not saying that you have to tier whore and pick only characters that are broken-good, but don't play a character if you think they're bad. Or, at least, if you do, try not to paint yourself as a hero.
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Try not to be offended by this, but that's a very casual way to play a game. You're only wasting your time if you're purposefully playing a character that you, yourself thinks is bad. There's nothing that annoys me more than someone who picks a character that they think sucks and complains about how bad they are, using it as an excuse (to themselves as much as to other people) for losing. I'm not saying that you have to tier whore and pick only characters that are broken-good, but don't play a character if you think they're bad. Or, at least, if you do, try not to paint yourself as a hero.
Tell that to this guy:
Q (TM) Owning - (Gamers Vision RB 4th-7) 22/07/2006 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=318-WtnEkfM#)
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I dislike Vice. She's basically jCD into EX grab all day. And until I find a solid counter to that shit Clark I will continue to call her gimmicky ;) .
Here's a hint to fight vice... *whispers* rush her down...
Frame trap or do a move that + frame advantage on block, jump and do an air normal. You will beat her CD most likely and if she tries to EX shoulder, it won't work.
I started to play Vice but her defense is so fucking terrible man, its worse than Claw Iori by far. If she had her anti air whip from CvS(dunno if it was in previous KOF games) or even the slash kicks she would be so much better.
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The instant I rush down Vice, either by short hopping or knock her down and try to keep pressure, I almost always eat an EX Shoulder. They LOVE doing that. That's a matchup I gotta' learn for sure.
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Dog, EX Shoulder/Mayhem is 14 frames and about half of it's invincible. It can get safejumped by almost anyone in the game. Stop hitting buttons and let Vice screw up.
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Didn't know that, I'll keep it mind. Fistbump.
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my question for david kong, why do you play robert if you think he's so bad? even i've put down leona as a sub character, and i've mained her up until recently.
I've put so much damn time into him that it's really hard for me to let go. Also, I'd be lying if I said Robert isn't really fun to play. At this point, any other character I pick up won't perform as well for me as robert currently does. But i'm working on it! Hopefully in a few more months my karate and EX iori will be tournament level. Until then Robert is my best bet along with king and vice.
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Also, Vice is soooo good lol. Her defense is bad in the sense that she lacks any good close range anti air normals which cover her head, but her 1 frame invincible command grab can definitely be used as a defensive tool to make up for that once you've blocked the jump in.
I am also one of the few Vice players that thinks she's an awesome point character, simply because she is amazing at building meter without building meter for the opponent. every single sleeve does not build ANY meter for the opponent on block, hit or whiff. on hit, combo-ing into command grab also builds 0 meter for the opponent. you can also kara into sleeve from stand CD for a very significant range boost.
her far stand B is also cancelable, so you can frame trap into fwd A or into sleeve from very good ranges. same thing with her sweep. her j. B is also great and has a ton of horizontal range and is active for days. you can combo off of it at very far ranges as well.
but yeah, my point is her neutral game is very very good, and very few vice players actually utilize it. (i'm still working on it myself lol). the idea that her entire game is based off of J. cd into EX sleeve is a misconception, although I don't deny that it's still a huge part of her anchor game.
Also, the fact that every single practical HD combo can be done the same way on every single part of the screen is totally awesome.
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I agree she def is in that Category of "tough to use but good points" but I think she shines in the 2nd position. Not as an anchor. If she's out of meter in the 3rd slot, the hill is super steep.
Sent from my R800x using Tapatalk 2
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Here's a hint to fight vice... *whispers* rush her down...
vice's defense is bad? its her forte. just because you can beat 2 masher options in a specific situation doesnt mean anything. if you just jump and blindly do an air normal you can easily be trip guarded into full combo...or even easier, since its vice, she can just hit you out of the air and full combo...
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Here's a hint to fight vice... *whispers* rush her down...
vice's defense is bad? its her forte. just because you can beat 2 masher options in a specific situation doesnt mean anything. if you just jump and blindly do an air normal you can easily be trip guarded into full combo...or even easier, since its vice, she can just hit you out of the air and full combo...
Iori is probably her worst matchup along with characters with fireballs. I played Vice for a good bit before dropping her. Her mid screen yomi is good when there is no fireballs anywhere. However, she can really put a hurting on some characters while getting shat on by some others. My view on Vice's matchups from what I know:
Good or 5/5 Matchup:
Shen
EX Kyo
Kim
K'
Clark
Ralf
Duo Lon
Maxima
Yuri
Billy
Kyo
Ryo
Bad or 6/4 or worse:
Takuma
EX Iori
Claw Iori
Benimaru
Andy
Joe
Terry
Any other character with a really good fireball and DP
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MMCafe's Professor has recently released Uuu's tier chart (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trh8dxlwa4l7666ugz9u8khn75ove7anef5ncrim4oa63scw50c7cbozagg7akoy6ndxfv5k2rbn3xj6jwng85eh6zix7ln7c4na75bc8k8041iudzkj73p0ci887fcz7e93dbcw9yej8ngz5v-bkf-naUUU). Link to source (http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/bbs/messages/13361.shtml#61716)
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MMCafe's Professor has recently released Uuu's tier chart (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trh8dxlwa4l7666ugz9u8khn75ove7anef5ncrim4oa63scw50c7cbozagg7akoy6ndxfv5k2rbn3xj6jwng85eh6zix7ln7c4na75bc8k8041iudzkj73p0ci887fcz7e93dbcw9yej8ngz5v-bkf-naUUU). Link to source (http://www.mmcafe.com/cgi-bin/forums/bbs/messages/13361.shtml#61716)
Wow man, that's one interesting tier chart.
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My tier chart I decided to make while bored:
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trox6mne465h49ed84ax82d64ahxaghy84l7ahjy46ib459a84jm86dzedlt6iig6ki3eda2497253caed8l6kb2ahcpai5i7dgfedg9ahcn81k46j9cagjjahedajgb84l488ne6jln46p046-bkg-naJosh (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#ya0-trox6mne465h49ed84ax82d64ahxaghy84l7ahjy46ib459a84jm86dzedlt6iig6ki3eda2497253caed8l6kb2ahcpai5i7dgfedg9ahcn81k46j9cagjjahedajgb84l488ne6jln46p046-bkg-naJosh)
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Orochinagi just posted the ratio charts for Tokyo, Osaka, London, Paris and SoCal.
http://orochinagi.com/2012/10/kof-xiii-ratios-for-tokyo-osaka-london-socal-and-paris (http://orochinagi.com/2012/10/kof-xiii-ratios-for-tokyo-osaka-london-socal-and-paris)
Chin rising up the ranks in most regions.
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Yo Elisabeth why so low on the ratio. :(
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Yo Elisabeth why so low on the ratio. :(
Nobody plays her?
Orochinagi just posted the ratio charts for Tokyo, Osaka, London, Paris and SoCal.
http://orochinagi.com/2012/10/kof-xiii-ratios-for-tokyo-osaka-london-socal-and-paris (http://orochinagi.com/2012/10/kof-xiii-ratios-for-tokyo-osaka-london-socal-and-paris)
Chin rising up the ranks in most regions.
This isn't really a tier list, more a popularity list.
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yes it is more of a popularity list than a tier list, but part of its use is to balance out team strength. the top ratios pretty much have all the top tiers there. its the bottom ratios that are all mixed up and makes me wonder if it will even have much effect on team strength.
say you form a team with the tokyo ratio in a tournament setting, anybody that forced to use a ratio 1 character is pretty much gaurenteed to have King on point, with robert probly being the second go-to pick out of that group. for socal, robert seems like he would be the obvious first choice over athena and mai.
as far as encouraging team variety goes, i think the Osaka chart is the only one that will do it. its the only one that doesnt truly reflect tiers for each ratio.
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Seeing as this is listed as a character discussion thread, I'm hoping that this isn't the wrong place to be asking about this, but do you guys have any suggestions on who somebody who's starting in terms of characters to use? I talked to a friend about it, and he thought King was "newbie friendly", and that "Kyo's kinda alright but you'll switch to K' when you get better". When I would casually stumble across games like 98, 2001, or 2002 in arcades I'd usually pick up Benimaru or Yuri, but I figured I'd ask here.
From the casual bit of messing around with KOFXIII so far I've found myself liking Benimaru, Yuri, Kyo, King, Vice, Robert, Ryo, and Kula. Do you guys think a Yuri/Benimaru/King team would be a relatively wise thing to start with learning, or are there other suggestions you have? Either way, I'd like to get some feedback and if this is the wrong thread, then I apologize completely.
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try everyone you like. the characters are not that complex. youl learn all the bnb's and stuff you need to know in a week. team order is critical to victory. Expirement , and see who builds meter and uses meter and set your team accordingly.
eg, yuri is good without meter however her damage increases exponentially when she has meter. Beni is just all round stupid good. Ryo, king imo are good for meter building and annoyance so you would want to put them first.
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Thanks for that. I do like how order placement seems to be a strategy in and of itself in KOF as opposed to the level of it in say...Marvel (though I'm not bashing Marvel, I pretty much like/respect all fighters). The basics of what I'm getting from what you said is pretty much, the purpose of the first character is to try and get in there and do as much meterless damage as possible at first, with second's purpose being to sort of get as much meter for the anchor as at all possible?
There's some other things I've obviously struggled with such as doing some Max Cancels (though I'm completely aware there has to be a means to combo into HD activation and the ability to read when to go for it before I even THINK of using those), input shortcuts, and not accidentally jumping/super jumping when I go to do the hop equivalent, but I'm pretty sure those come with practice.
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Hey guys, once in a while I like to post my own personal tier lists just for fun. Seeing as how the new EVO season is about to start, I figured that I should post an updated list hahaha. This is just my opinion, nothing more:
AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai
A+: Both Ioris, Both Kyos, Benimaru, Yuri, Takuma, Kim
A: Shen Woo, Vice, Saiki, King, Duolon, Chin,
A-: Andy, Kensou, Kula,Mature, Ralf, Clark, Liz, Ryo, K', Raiden, Daimon, Robert
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Terry, Ash, Athena, Maxima, Mai
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Hey guys, once in a while I like to post my own personal tier lists just for fun. Seeing as how the new EVO season is about to start, I figured that I should post an updated list hahaha. This is just my opinion, nothing more:
AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai
A+: Both Ioris, Both Kyos, Benimaru, Yuri, Takuma, Kim
A: Shen Woo, Vice, Saiki, King, Duolon, Chin,
A-: Andy, Kensou, Kula,Mature, Ralf, Clark, Liz, Ryo, K', Raiden, Daimon, Robert
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Terry, Ash, Athena, Maxima, Mai
Pretty close to how I'm viewing the game right now. A few things though:
1) Why is Billy so low?
2) What pushed Robert up from before, especially above Billy?
3) What's keeping shen out of the tiers above him? He is on par with most of the chars above him IMO.
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Hey guys, once in a while I like to post my own personal tier lists just for fun. Seeing as how the new EVO season is about to start, I figured that I should post an updated list hahaha. This is just my opinion, nothing more:
AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai
A+: Both Ioris, Both Kyos, Benimaru, Yuri, Takuma, Kim
A: Shen Woo, Vice, Saiki, King, Duolon, Chin,
A-: Andy, Kensou, Kula,Mature, Ralf, Clark, Liz, Ryo, K', Raiden, Daimon, Robert
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Terry, Ash, Athena, Maxima, Mai
Why is Shen so low? Should be atleast A+ or A+++ or higher. Kim should be above Takuma...Takuma should probably go down. Duolon is definitely not on the same level as Shen.
The Ioris aren't as good as Kim.
Joe is definitely better than Robert. Billy could maybe go up one spot, same with Ash.
List seems quite off and doesn't reflect the highest level that we've been seeing.
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Tier list are only as good as the players playing the game that being said the top 3 are without doubt Mr Karate, Hwa and Ex Iori..
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Hey guys, once in a while I like to post my own personal tier lists just for fun. Seeing as how the new EVO season is about to start, I figured that I should post an updated list hahaha. This is just my opinion, nothing more:
AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai
A+: Both Ioris, Both Kyos, Benimaru, Yuri, Takuma, Kim
A: Shen Woo, Vice, Saiki, King, Duolon, Chin,
A-: Andy, Kensou, Kula,Mature, Ralf, Clark, Liz, Ryo, K', Raiden, Daimon, Robert
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Terry, Ash, Athena, Maxima, Mai
I'm not disagreeing with you in Billy's tier placement totally, seeing as I feel his "newness" bumped him up in tiers initially (i think he's A-). My main inquiry is regarding Kensou's vs Athena's placement. Athena clearly beats him out in almost every aspect. Her corner throw combos are stronger, her fireball game and anti-fireball game is mad stronger. Athena can beat Kensou out in pokes as well. Maybe I'm not seeing something Kensou has that makes him better, so please shed some light on your placement.
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instead of yal complaining about someone elses opinion on there tier list y not jus make ya own
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instead of yal complaining about someone elses opinion on there tier list y not jus make ya own
Because then everyone would just post lists and there would be no actual DISCUSSION going on about why the characters are as good or bad as they are. Some extra knowledge can be gained from that too. I'm prolly gonna post a list of my own soon, but I wanna put some considerable effort into it including explaining a good deal of the placements I end up coming up with, and the best part for me would be the ability to talk it over with other players.
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aint much discussion goin on.... so once again people can make there own tier list
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^ Umm, there is discussion. That's why people comment on their list. They want to know why they think certain character are high or lower than each other from their perspective.
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just wondering ..while watching Japanese kof 13 matches i don't see them choosing benimaru a lot...??
another Q...why joe and kim aren't considered a top tiers or mid high at least..??
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I've seen plenty of Japanese Beni players and Kim is universally considered "top". Joe, not so much.
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I've seen plenty of Japanese Beni players and Kim is universally considered "top". Joe, not so much.
well.. i saw them use him a lot (after ) the game released but nowadays i see benimaru user are less.
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KOF 13 Ratio Tiers: Scotland, Kyoto, Morocco, NorCal (Nov 2012)
http://orochinagi.com/2012/11/xiii-ratio-tiers-scotland-kyoto-morocco-norcal-nov-2012 (http://orochinagi.com/2012/11/xiii-ratio-tiers-scotland-kyoto-morocco-norcal-nov-2012)
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Hey guys,
I totally wasn't expecting so many comments about the list I posted up, sorry I haven't checked back in a long while!
So, first off please notice that I've adjusted my opinion from before and currently believe that even the bottom tier of this game is B+, meaning totally viable.
When I rank characters (or think about how good they are) these are the main factors I consider:
1.) Damage output for meter spent (1 drive cancel or HD)
2.) Normals (frame data and hitbox properties)
3.) Neutral game
4.) Mix Up ability
Billy is low tier imo because of his poor damage output and mix up ability. His two really good normals are fwd A and j. CD, but he simply lacks the other straightforward things which make top tier characters good in this game. His main strength is his neutral game, which still isn't as effective when compared to characters like King, Kyo, and Iori.
Robert moved up for me since I've found (with help from Airlancer and Warahk) his optimized combos in all screen positions. He actually does very good damage (800 2 bars HD, 400+ 1 bar 1 drive, 550 2 bars 1 drive), but still suffers from having poor normals outside of j. CD and cl. C.
Shen Woo is obviously good and extremely solid, but his main strength lies in spending meter for explosive damage. His normals are great and his mix up is strong, but without meter his main goal becomes to build meter, and his neutral game becomes much more limited. Also, his damage output is awesome, but still inferior to claw, karate and hwa. That's my reasoning behind not putting him higher.
In regards to Athena vs Kensou: Athena's dmg output is very very poor unless you consistently land her butt loop for a drive cancel combo. Also, her normals are all fairly mediocre. I guess her cr. C is pretty good. Otherwise she has a strong neutral game with fireball/uppercut/command grab.
But yeah, again please keep in mind that at least in my head, the difference between A and A- or B+ is very minor and can easily be overcome with an individual player's skill. And this is all just my own opinion, which I'm sure isn't 100% (or even 90%) accurate. The meta game has a long long way to go before we hit the limit. The only thing I know for sure is that Hwa and Karate are cheap lol
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My main inquiry is regarding Kensou's vs Athena's placement. Athena clearly beats him out in almost every aspect. Her corner throw combos are stronger, her fireball game and anti-fireball game is mad stronger. Athena can beat Kensou out in pokes as well. Maybe I'm not seeing something Kensou has that makes him better, so please shed some light on your placement.
her jump is slower, her dp is a liability because of the speed and forward momentum (easy to get an angle to make it whiff). athena's normals dont allow her to throw something out to beat low jump, kensou at least has d. that said i think she's the most underrated character. she's got an invincible grab and gets like 500+ from it with 1 drive+ 1 super.
i still dont think hwa jai is in the highest tier. his drunk cross up is really cheap but technically you can roll out of it on reaction and hwa cant punish the roll no? his jump is slow. i think the best thing about the character is his neutral game, but i dont like the character as much as a lot of others when he doesnt have the advantage or life lead. my top 6 has been for awhile, karate beni kim kyo ex iori and shen.
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my top 6 has been for awhile, karate beni kim kyo ex iori and shen.
I totally agree that Athena is underrated. I also agreed much like yourself, for some time, the top 6 but I still would replace Shen for Hwa.
Hwa's damage output, non drunk, is still pretty high. The Reynald corner combo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-8Lx2PeCgA&feature=youtube_gdata_player) that Ricky Diaz uses all the time that does like 610 (no jump in!) and you only need to start with 1 drive 1 stock as well. From a light it's still close to 500. Factor how easy it is for Hwa to corner people and also how good his frame traps are, the aforementioned combo isn't as situational as it sounds.
Shen just can't convert damage like that.
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Hey guys,
I totally wasn't expecting so many comments about the list I posted up, sorry I haven't checked back in a long while!
So, first off please notice that I've adjusted my opinion from before and currently believe that even the bottom tier of this game is B+, meaning totally viable.
When I rank characters (or think about how good they are) these are the main factors I consider:
1.) Damage output for meter spent (1 drive cancel or HD)
2.) Normals (frame data and hitbox properties)
3.) Neutral game
4.) Mix Up ability
Billy is low tier imo because of his poor damage output and mix up ability. His two really good normals are fwd A and j. CD, but he simply lacks the other straightforward things which make top tier characters good in this game. His main strength is his neutral game, which still isn't as effective when compared to characters like King, Kyo, and Iori.
Robert moved up for me since I've found (with help from Airlancer and Warahk) his optimized combos in all screen positions. He actually does very good damage (800 2 bars HD, 400+ 1 bar 1 drive, 550 2 bars 1 drive), but still suffers from having poor normals outside of j. CD and cl. C.
Shen Woo is obviously good and extremely solid, but his main strength lies in spending meter for explosive damage. His normals are great and his mix up is strong, but without meter his main goal becomes to build meter, and his neutral game becomes much more limited. Also, his damage output is awesome, but still inferior to claw, karate and hwa. That's my reasoning behind not putting him higher.
In regards to Athena vs Kensou: Athena's dmg output is very very poor unless you consistently land her butt loop for a drive cancel combo. Also, her normals are all fairly mediocre. I guess her cr. C is pretty good. Otherwise she has a strong neutral game with fireball/uppercut/command grab.
But yeah, again please keep in mind that at least in my head, the difference between A and A- or B+ is very minor and can easily be overcome with an individual player's skill. And this is all just my own opinion, which I'm sure isn't 100% (or even 90%) accurate. The meta game has a long long way to go before we hit the limit. The only thing I know for sure is that Hwa and Karate are cheap lol
If this was how you were rating characters beni should be top tier
Beni has great mix ups, high damage output with 1 meter, a plethora of mix ups off the same situation thanks to command grab, ability to change jump angle is 4 different ways not to mention meaty air fireball mix ups, great level one super in bio-dome, command grab that sets you up for him to do as he pleases and is instant mind you, ex command grab is an option that can set beni up for good damage anywhere on the screen, great footsies for pokeing and annoying the opponent, fast Neo max... I could go on forever
Why is terry so low? By no means is terry the lowest tier in the game and neither is joe! Terry has great damage, good frame traps, beautiful normals, guard crushing ability is there, good mix ups. Have you seen mudon, madkof, or lacid play terry
As for joe he should be higher than he is. Joe is a great characters his pressure is nuts if you get people who know how to use dynamite punches for pressure. In between is frame trap game fireball game, over nice range on his more import normals juggle ability, mix ups of dynamite punch resets or even his ability to stun an opponent with 1 bar and drive into another combo that will give him even more meter Joe is a force to be reckoned with.
Also, if you think Billy's damage output is low you might want to check again. Billy gets tons of damage in the comer thanks to him having the NO drive special to special tricks.
The Ioris aren't as good as Kim.
We will pretend this was never said...
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terry is solid, he just winds up in that category of characters where logically there's no reason to play him over other characters. if crack shoot was +1 on crouch block, jailed, and didnt get low profiled i think thred be more of a reason to play him.
joe is always going to be at the lower end. he has no mix up other than cr.short/throw and he is slow to guard break the opponent. hes got great pressure but it has to lead to something, especially considering he's lacking when it comes to anti-airs. the stun combo makes him good at punishing big mistakes, but at high level that's a hard thing to force. the character's flaw is really that he doesn't compliment himself...his combo damage makes him dangerous, but he needs meter for it, and from a gameplay perspective he is by far the best on point, since he can control mid-range and put on pressure without a ton of risk.
billy's weakness is pretty simple...he just doesnt get the high damage outside of the corner. you have to spend hd and 2 bars to break 500. he certainly isn't the lowest tier, though. most of the time you have to take more risk to deal with him than he does with you and he's always going to be relevant because of that.
really you can look at any character in this game and come up with reasons as to why they shouldn't be in the lowest tier...but someone has to be there, even if your lowest tier is B or something. so who's it going to be? who do you guys think are the weakest characters?
and kim being better than ioris? that's a perfectly valid argument. i think he's clearly better than claw, ex it's just matter of preference.
as for hwa i agree he does hemma damage. thats how i use him now, mostly don't use drunk mode, just do super high damage for not a lot of meter and the rest of the time do a lot of nothing but sit around and mash d and play the neutral game until i have an advantage. but the way i judge him not being top is looking at how he deals with being in all situations. both him and shen have a lot of the same things going on, but shen has the advantage over hwa when being put into a situation where he needs to make up a lead. 1. his hop is fast and low, with his jump cd covering a lot of space and jump c hitting really low, great for pressure and a lot harder to anti-air with supers and the like when compared to hwa. and 2. he deals with ppl jumping on his head better because of low c and explosion super. hwa doesn't have anything that hits there. hwa has the advantage in the neutral game with d and jabs, slide confirms and whatever, but that stuff isn't as valuable when you don't have the lead.
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Kim is clearly better than iori is what regard? Claw has just as good of normals if not better, Ex command grab punishes that go over 800-900+ with hd, iori has a move that crushes lows and leads to more damage than Kim's also it doesn't get beat out like Kim's does, iori has better air normal, more ways to open people up, has a better guard crush game than Kim, better footsies.
All Kim really has is easier confirms really.
Also terry does have frame advantage on blocked crack shoots especially meaty crackshoots which a lot of people don't do.lol it's only negative in certain situations also crack shoot as an AA is great because you can follow it up, terry has the ability to put an opponent in the corner no problem, can easily space an opponent out also if need be, great normals, good cross up game with jump c and d, great blow back moving him forward allowing him to Kara cancel moves for punishing or better position or hell just frame advantage, he can delay canceling his st d for even more mind games.
Also far st c... That is all
You think joe doesn't have a good mix up or pressure game? That's crazy... Asl the fact that you think joe can only use his stun combo off or people's mistakes means you don't see much joe in action. Joe can go into stun combo without 1 bar he can do it off his light slash kick doesn't cost drive until he starts the juggle... Also like I said he guard crush game is good because if you do dynamite punch and stop right at the 4the punch you have frame advantage you can frame trap off it, or if you hit someone you can link off of it.
Joe has multiple AAs tiger kick AA leads to a high damage juggle slide can be used to lower joes hitbox and if he hits you he can cancel to dynamite punch orrrrrrrr joe can just slide out the way
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Both Iori and Kim are all three completly different characters. Saying who's best without any background discussion is just pointless. They have all very good weapons some are better than others depending the situation.
Moreover Kim works well without meter contrary to Claw who shines when he has full gauge, but I rather think that Kim he's more an easy to learn hard to master character while claw is more a straight forward killer. Ex Iori, seems really deep but I don't know enough to really talk about him.
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You're looking at stuff from too much of a training mode/theory perspective and not taking everything into account.
Kim is clearly better than iori is what regard? Claw has just as good of normals if not better, Ex command grab punishes that go over 800-900+ with hd, iori has a move that crushes lows and leads to more damage than Kim's also it doesn't get beat out like Kim's does, iori has better air normal, more ways to open people up, has a better guard crush game than Kim, better footsies.
All Kim really has is easier confirms really.
1. Better normals...you are insane. Kim has his D, an advancing, low crushing, leads to a combo, initiative-giving move. Stand B, the furthest-reaching normal that leads into any of his bnb combos, and stops hop. Kim doesn't have the absolute best normals for everything, but the only notable things Iori has on the ground is close C and jump D, which is not as strong in this game as it used to be, and when compared to other moves of the sort like Kyo close C (Kim close D does the same thing anyway). Iori far D is good, nothing special, a lot of characters have this type of move and many are better. Far B, it's nice but Kim's is obviously better; it reaches higher and leads to a combo. Air normals, not that comparable but honestly I think Kim's are better. Iori has jump D but it can be tripguarded, Kim's C has a similar use, and while it's a bit worse for air-to-air, you can use it in a way to not be tripguarded. He has his own crossup/low hitting jump A, and his CD reaches further.
2. Yes Iori's command grab is good...800-900 costs a shitload of meter though especially if you're starting with EX grab. I don't get the punish part though, since EX grab is 5f and that's slower than most characters close C/D.
3. Iori qcb+P does not allow Iori to keep the initiative after it is blocked, and he is fucked if someone jumps over it and hits him...Kim stand D stops jump-outs and low jumps. Leads to more damage doesn't matter when Iori is forced to use meter to convert off of it. Kim simply gets to start whatever combo he chooses. And qcb+P sole purpose is only crushing lows...Kim's D is used for offense, he can just do it and force the opponent to deal with it, qcb+P is not that kind of move. It may have some faster startup but it doesn't really matter since you can't hit buttons on Kim anyway because of stand B. Iori isn't anywhere close to as oppressive or safe from that range.
4. And better footsies...not even close. Kim stand B is the most powerful move of its kind in the game, period. Iori doesn't even have something comparable. Stand C lol?
Kim other advantages...he has a 3f ex flash kick anti-air, which since it's a charge you can't cross him up, and we all know how good cross-ups are in this game. EX qcb+K, + whatever on block, he can basically just spend that meter to get in, which is very valuable in close matches. And then he has has air EX qcb+K, a tool no one else in the game has. When it's down to the wire and people are looking for anti-air ex supers and such, nothing says fuck you like an invincible jump-in. He has the most dominant ground game, now on top of that you have to respect his jump in? which he can do double overheads from? lol. It's ridiculous.
Also terry does have frame advantage on blocked crack shoots especially meaty crackshoots which a lot of people don't do.lol it's only negative in certain situations also crack shoot as an AA is great because you can follow it up, terry has the ability to put an opponent in the corner no problem, can easily space an opponent out also if need be, great normals, good cross up game with jump c and d, great blow back moving him forward allowing him to Kara cancel moves for punishing or better position or hell just frame advantage, he can delay canceling his st d for even more mind games.
Also far st c... That is all
Crack shoot is only + if you block it crouching, and meaty crack shoot is a risk no one wants to take outside the first round, it's too see-able. It's not bad if the opponent has no meter but there's so many good ex supers or DPs that can be canceled into damage a lot of time it's not a good option. Yeah it can anti-air, but it's slow so you basically have to guess. Yeah his far C is cool, his cross-up is good, but his jump sucks unfortunately.
You think joe doesn't have a good mix up or pressure game? That's crazy... Asl the fact that you think joe can only use his stun combo off or people's mistakes means you don't see much joe in action. Joe can go into stun combo without 1 bar he can do it off his light slash kick doesn't cost drive until he starts the juggle... Also like I said he guard crush game is good because if you do dynamite punch and stop right at the 4the punch you have frame advantage you can frame trap off it, or if you hit someone you can link off of it.
Joe has multiple AAs tiger kick AA leads to a high damage juggle slide can be used to lower joes hitbox and if he hits you he can cancel to dynamite punch orrrrrrrr joe can just slide out the way
Well you didn't list a single mix-up or situation he can stun from anything other than a mistake so yes I think he doesn't have a good mix-up game. Tiger kick is super slow as hell, EX is good but when you've got to spend meter to anti-air...the character better have some major other advantages to make up for it, and Joe doesn't quite have that. In fact, he could have hwajais dp+B and he still wouldn't be top. Low-profile AAs are nice and all, but if the opponent guesses right, you're eating a combo. It's a tool for the character to use, but not a reason to fear them.
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Shen Woo is obviously good and extremely solid, but his main strength lies in spending meter for explosive damage.
I disagree. I think Shen can do good damage without meter. Sure, he does awesome damage with it, but he's not limited without it.
His normals are great and his mix up is strong, but without meter his main goal becomes to build meter, and his neutral game becomes much more limited
Definitely not true. Every Shen I see in action, he's always trying to get in your face, meter or not.
I think the statement of relying on meter for big damage applies to Kim more. Without it, all he's really got is his bread-and-butter. He needs the meter to extend his combos further, and even then, Shen's damage w/ meter > Kim's damage with meter. This is why I think Shen should be higher than Kim.
You're looking at stuff from too much of a training mode/theory perspective and not taking everything into account.
Kim is clearly better than iori is what regard? Claw has just as good of normals if not better, Ex command grab punishes that go over 800-900+ with hd, iori has a move that crushes lows and leads to more damage than Kim's also it doesn't get beat out like Kim's does, iori has better air normal, more ways to open people up, has a better guard crush game than Kim, better footsies.
All Kim really has is easier confirms really.
1. Better normals...you are insane. Kim has his D, an advancing, low crushing, leads to a combo, initiative-giving move. Stand B, the furthest-reaching normal that leads into any of his bnb combos, and stops hop. Kim doesn't have the absolute best normals for everything, but the only notable things Iori has on the ground is close C and jump D, which is not as strong in this game as it used to be, and when compared to other moves of the sort like Kyo close C (Kim close D does the same thing anyway). Iori far D is good, nothing special, a lot of characters have this type of move and many are better. Far B, it's nice but Kim's is obviously better; it reaches higher and leads to a combo. Air normals, not that comparable but honestly I think Kim's are better. Iori has jump D but it can be tripguarded, Kim's C has a similar use, and while it's a bit worse for air-to-air, you can use it in a way to not be tripguarded. He has his own crossup/low hitting jump A, and his CD reaches further.
2. Yes Iori's command grab is good...800-900 costs a shitload of meter though especially if you're starting with EX grab. I don't get the punish part though, since EX grab is 5f and that's slower than most characters close C/D.
3. Iori qcb+P does not allow Iori to keep the initiative after it is blocked, and he is fucked if someone jumps over it and hits him...Kim stand D stops jump-outs and low jumps. Leads to more damage doesn't matter when Iori is forced to use meter to convert off of it. Kim simply gets to start whatever combo he chooses. And qcb+P sole purpose is only crushing lows...Kim's D is used for offense, he can just do it and force the opponent to deal with it, qcb+P is not that kind of move. It may have some faster startup but it doesn't really matter since you can't hit buttons on Kim anyway because of stand B. Iori isn't anywhere close to as oppressive or safe from that range.
4. And better footsies...not even close. Kim stand B is the most powerful move of its kind in the game, period. Iori doesn't even have something comparable. Stand C lol?
Kim other advantages...he has a 3f ex flash kick anti-air, which since it's a charge you can't cross him up, and we all know how good cross-ups are in this game. EX qcb+K, + whatever on block, he can basically just spend that meter to get in, which is very valuable in close matches. And then he has has air EX qcb+K, a tool no one else in the game has. When it's down to the wire and people are looking for anti-air ex supers and such, nothing says fuck you like an invincible jump-in. He has the most dominant ground game, now on top of that you have to respect his jump in? which he can do double overheads from? lol. It's ridiculous.
This argument is just hilarious. I'm supposed to believe Kim is better than Iori because of better normals and good EX specials? lol...
What about Kim's normal specials? His DMs? Upon examining those, it proves that Iori is still better. Kim's normal specials aren't that great. In fact, they're quite pitiful compared to some characters. Both versions of his qcb + K are unsafe on block. His air qcb + K is good only as a combo finisher. God forbid you accidentally do this in a HD combo, because you've sabotaged your own combo. His up-charge K move is a decent anti-air, but because it is a charge move, it takes a while to come out (not to mention, it is extremely unsafe if missed). And his dive kick... who the fuck uses that shit? No one does! Because it sucks! Even the EX version of that isn't really worth it! In pointing out how good his EX specials are, you're practically saying that he has to depend on his meter to get good use out of his moves, since his normal specials aren't all that great.
At a glance, it seems Kim has Iori beat in the DM department, only because Kim has more at his disposal. But Iori's DM does more damage than Kim's ranbu DM. Also, not many people get good use out of Kim's air ranbu. The only real use for Kim's qcf x 2 + K seems to be in HD combos.
So yeah, Kim is not above Iori, all things considered. He may have better normals than Iori, as well as great EX specials, but that is nowhere near enough to place him in top. I don't even consider Kim above Shen for reasons I've already listed.
Just because the Koreans, who may be the best KOF players in the world at the moment, are good with Kim, it doesn't automatically grant him a place in top tier. He lacks things that would place him there, such as good normal specials, as well as different bnb's. You guys need to stop saying Kim is top tier. He isn't. Period.
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Both versions of his qcb + K are unsafe on block.
You can make his qcb+B safer if you place it at the end of a blockstring. But knowing they both arent very safe does not mean you should just use them a blockstring at all. It's best to confirm into those.
His air qcb + K is good only as a combo finisher.
It's a good combo finisher, and it gives the opponent a hard knockdown which is good for oki. You can also use it as a delayed overhead by itself if you back dash them perform it, or even to pause slightly in the air to avoid projectiles. You can also cancel it from his j.A (as a double overhead which I believe Dandy J mentioned) and his j.CD to catch people blocking low after an overhead. It will also make it safe on block too, but instant command throws will catch it.
His up-charge K move is a decent anti-air, but because it is a charge move, it takes a while to come out (not to mention, it is extremely unsafe if missed).
The charge isn't that long...and yes if it is missed you can be punished hard, so it's best to use that move as carefully and cautiously as you can.
And his dive kick... who the fuck uses that shit? No one does! Because it sucks! Even the EX version of that isn't really worth it!
I agree the dive kick is rather weak damage and spacing wise but you can use it to pause yourself mid air against projectiles to throw opponents off and TK it to build meter. The EX version is only good because it is safe on block and you can link it in easily into other special moves (like his heavy kick flash kick or his qcb+B) in the corner. You can also use it to chip some damage on block too if needed.
The only real use for Kim's qcf x 2 + K seems to be in HD combos.
You can use the light kick version to anti-air jumping opponents then follow up with a ff+A into qcb+K because it has more upper body invincibility than the heavy kick version.
Just because the Koreans, who may be the best KOF players in the world at the moment, are good with Kim, it doesn't automatically grant him a place in top tier. He lacks things that would place him there, such as good normal specials, as well as different bnb's. You guys need to stop saying Kim is top tier. He isn't. Period.
You gotta look at more about the options Kim has both offensive and defensively as a whole rather than the amount of different bnbs and the quality and damage of his normal specials. His main meterless bnb confirm (that ends in qcb+B) gives the opponent a hard knockdown for a safe jump opportunity which is very powerful and annoying. Then you can skip the safe jump and empty jump low as a mixup, etc.
As Dandy J mentioned his normals are very, very useful in many situations and how useful his EX flash kick is defensively and how you can avoid damn near anything with his air EX qcb+K. Kim just has a lot of great tools that makes him frustrating and scary to deal with...which is why he is on my team. :)
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You gotta look at more about the options Kim has both offensive and defensively as a whole rather than the amount of different bnbs and the quality and damage of his normal specials.
Except I wasn't doing that. I was merely addressing what Dandy J didn't.
I can see how Kim's normals are really good, and I KNOW that his EX specials are godlike. I didn't take into consideration his pressure game, but how much does that vary among characters? If you can tell me how much pressure games vary among characters, I may reconsider my opinion of him somewhat.
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You gotta look at more about the options Kim has both offensive and defensively as a whole rather than the amount of different bnbs and the quality and damage of his normal specials.
Except I wasn't doing that. I was merely addressing what Dandy J didn't.
I can see how Kim's normals are really good, and I KNOW that his EX specials are godlike. I didn't take into consideration his pressure game, but how much does that vary among characters? If you can tell me how much pressure games vary among characters, I may consider putting him above Shen.
Have you ever seriously played against a good (not even great) Kim before? Ever?
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Seriously dude... this is motherfucking Kim Kaphwan here.
He's good in every single game he's ever been in.
I don't play KOF Kim though. Just FF Kim.
I should play KOF Kim though...
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??? what sense does it make to categorically compare move sets? All that matters is how the character deals with every possible situation how well they do it. A move is unsafe or not that useful? Don't use it. His flash kick is unsafe when blocked? So is every other invincible move. From everything you posted it doesn't seem like you're familiar at all with the character. Air qcb+K is useless outside of combos? Like Desmond said, air qcb+D is overhead and it's + frames when done low to the ground. You can use it for double overheads from a jump-in, from a backdash to hit people flinching, or just tiger knee it. And why does it matter that you can do it accidentally in combo? You could also accidentally unplug your controller when playing, so you'd better watch out for that as well. Air EX qcb+K useless? Again reiterating what Desmond said, and what I said in my previous post, it's one of the best moves in the entire game. It's literally an invincible jump-in. It BEATS Mr. Karate's ex super LOL. Imagine Kim has some bar and comes at you, you can't hit anything on the ground because of st.B, and when he jumps you can't anti-air because of he does qcb+KK you're eating a combo. Iori, and anyone else for that matter cannot oppress the opponent to the same extent that Kim does. Also, qcfx2+K super is an invincible level 1 and gives pretty buff damage for a level 1 since you get a combo after. It's also advantage on block, but you can buffer AB during the flash and punish it.
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??? what sense does it make to categorically compare move sets? All that matters is how the character deals with every possible situation how well they do it. A move is unsafe or not that useful? Don't use it. His flash kick is unsafe when blocked? So is every other invincible move. From everything you posted it doesn't seem like you're familiar at all with the character. Air qcb+K is useless outside of combos? Like Desmond said, air qcb+D is overhead and it's + frames when done low to the ground. You can use it for double overheads from a jump-in, from a backdash to hit people flinching, or just tiger knee it. And why does it matter that you can do it accidentally in combo? You could also accidentally unplug your controller when playing, so you'd better watch out for that as well. Air EX qcb+K useless? Again reiterating what Desmond said, and what I said in my previous post, it's one of the best moves in the entire game. It's literally an invincible jump-in. It BEATS Mr. Karate's ex super LOL. Imagine Kim has some bar and comes at you, you can't hit anything on the ground because of st.B, and when he jumps you can't anti-air because of he does qcb+KK you're eating a combo. Iori, and anyone else for that matter cannot oppress the opponent to the same extent that Kim does. Also, qcfx2+K super is an invincible level 1 and gives pretty buff damage for a level 1 since you get a combo after. It's also advantage on block, but you can buffer AB during the flash and punish it.
1. It doesn't beat mr karats super unless mr karate does his super right at the begining of the ex qcb k because if you didn't know it's not invincible through whole animation. Which is why Terry's ex busta wolf can punch him in the mouth or even terries rising tackle if he tries that, or mr karats invinc dp super can beat it out.
2. Also who said you can't Anti air him because of ex qcb kk? You need to learn the game if you think that prevents you from AAing someone because they have 1 solid air option in their arsenal. That's like saying you can't jump at kyo because he has an invincible ground dp. Watch patterns and pick spots son.
3. Kim's st b is -6 which is bad for a normal. I can literally smack that move on block with Iori's cr c with no problem...
4. Kim's qcb+c in the air is decent but it's not actually all that good. Because that move has a nice amount of start up you have tons of time to see Kim beginning to flip back at you and then he still has to bring his foot down.
5. Kim's super is positive on block but he gets no pressure out of it and it's easily punishable if you spend a bar to roll cancel punish or just mash roll.
6. Also there are tons of character who lock people down better than Kim. RALF being one of the best in your face characters in the game, Shen. Leona with a 50/50 at all times, mr karate, hwa, and there are more.
7. Last you don't always get a combo off ex qcb+kk because its height, range, and screen specific
. You can hit them with it too high and you land to late to flow up. You hit them with the tip of the move and you're too far away to follow
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So now were down to citing specific discrepancies and placing value on completely ridiculous things? Iori down c wont hit any range that kim st.b is effective from, I dont even have to boot up the game to see that. And I dont even know why youre trying to downplay air ex qcb+k. Your example with kyo is makes no sense because kyo, or anyone with an anti-air, when on the ground, is not in a vulnerable position that gives them offense when the opponent is passive. We're talking about a situation (jumping in) which is an action that carries risk normally, then having a move that can circumvent that risk, also (this is the important part) being an option that no other top tier has access to.
Hwajai yes has great short-term lock down mostly because of his jab. Still doesn't have the range of st.b, once he gets to that range he uses st.d, but then using st.d gives the opponent a chance to escape since its - and you won't catch a jump-out without waiting or guessing. He has cd which is + but slow start up. He has the burden of having to use more options than kim to keep you in place. kim can just hit d, if the opponent jumps or does nothing he has the advantage again, which is beat by mids, but this puts you at risk since you don't really want to hit those kinds of buttons in these situations in general. Hwa qcb+d is + but it can be rolled on reaction with no risk. In this area I think hwa is more dangerous but kim has better tools.
Shen I agree with, obviously since I think he is in the same tier as kim.
And lol ralf and leona? Yea they got their stuff, everyone in the game does, but if ralf and leona are better than kim in the ways he is strong, then where are all the ralfs and leonas? If you want to step into reality for a moment, kim is a proven tournament character. Even more proven than claw iori, especially after the first 9 months. Early on no one used kim and claw iori was very common, but as the game evolved, these characters went on opposite paths. Players got better at defense, controlling space defensively, air footsies and keeping iori out, and those skills made a character like kim better and better. Look at the finals for any hilevel tournament, evo, any majors with socal 4 kings or cafeid or top french, and count how many claw ioris you see in the top 8 or top 4 compared to kim. Kim is simply safer and more reliable, more able to control the match in every way.
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I like the discussion here. It's actually a discussion with facts and application of real-life events over known knowledge of the character.
I'm not going to claim to be a Kim expert, but he has a lot of tools to attack and defend himself with meter. He's just as irritating to deal with as Shen except Shen doesn't have as fast of an overhead as Kim and can't go into HD from it (I think).
One thing I'd like to add that was kind of brushed off was st.B being -6. Normally, because of how far it reaches, it's not a big deal. But you literally have to give up pressure with how far it reaches at some points. At it's max range, you can't really link anything but ff+A. That's 3 d.Bs into st.B as just a link. 2 d.Bs or less, you can punish it with (realistically) a character with a long horizontal 5F move. Even if it requires meter, punishing is still punishing.
Characters off the top of my head that can punish it with just normals is Daimon and Terry. Their st.B reaches really far and is 4F. With Daimon, he can just grab you with his qcb+B command roll and canceling that into command grab.
Terry could only go into a significant punish with meter, but you can hit them into qcb+B to start pressuring them now.
Again, that's about as far as I know without any meter, but some supers are fast enough to tag him. Like Maxima's EX Double Vapor Cannon or Kyo's EX Orochinagi. Just the thought that if someone's aware of it, they'll punish you for upwards of 350 for 2 bars is a little unsettling.
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So now were down to citing specific discrepancies and placing value on completely ridiculous things? Iori down c wont hit any range that kim st.b is effective from, I dont even have to boot up the game to see that. And I dont even know why youre trying to downplay air ex qcb+k. Your example with kyo is makes no sense because kyo, or anyone with an anti-air, when on the ground, is not in a vulnerable position that gives them offense when the opponent is passive. We're talking about a situation (jumping in) which is an action that carries risk normally, then having a move that can circumvent that risk, also (this is the important part) being an option that no other top tier has access to.
Hwajai yes has great short-term lock down mostly because of his jab. Still doesn't have the range of st.b, once he gets to that range he uses st.d, but then using st.d gives the opponent a chance to escape since its - and you won't catch a jump-out without waiting or guessing. He has cd which is + but slow start up. He has the burden of having to use more options than kim to keep you in place. kim can just hit d, if the opponent jumps or does nothing he has the advantage again, which is beat by mids, but this puts you at risk since you don't really want to hit those kinds of buttons in these situations in general. Hwa qcb+d is + but it can be rolled on reaction with no risk. In this area I think hwa is more dangerous but kim has better tools.
Shen I agree with, obviously since I think he is in the same tier as kim.
And lol ralf and leona? Yea they got their stuff, everyone in the game does, but if ralf and leona are better than kim in the ways he is strong, then where are all the ralfs and leonas? If you want to step into reality for a moment, kim is a proven tournament character. Even more proven than claw iori, especially after the first 9 months. Early on no one used kim and claw iori was very common, but as the game evolved, these characters went on opposite paths. Players got better at defense, controlling space defensively, air footsies and keeping iori out, and those skills made a character like kim better and better. Look at the finals for any hilevel tournament, evo, any majors with socal 4 kings or cafeid or top french, and count how many claw ioris you see in the top 8 or top 4 compared to kim. Kim is simply safer and more reliable, more able to control the match in every way.
1. Yes claw iori can hit st b with cr c because of the range and the speed... It's a 1 frame punish iori can also punish it with super or st b of his own. Don't tell me about a character that I main because you're definitely gonna lose this debate. Also you're nuts if you think the game has evolved to where claw iori is less of a threat. You can't out air footsie a character who has godlike air footsies like jump b, jump d literally arches his foot over other moves and he can bop other characters going into the air throwing out moves or he can arch his foot over some anti airs, he has a fast hop speed with a great angle on it.
Also that's cute that you think you can keep iori out with 1-2 bars claw iori can get into anywhere.lol
2. Kim is safer than iori when most of Iori's moves have more frame advantage or less disadvantage than Kim's lol
3. Claw iori is still making top 8 and wining tournaments look at bala, tc yoshi, lacid, and plenty of Japanese players nuff said. But what Kim's have you seen when a major lately? I believe the correct answer is none
4. Ralf... Bala (seconds), fixel (mains), and madkof seconds him. Ralf is played more than you think especially in japan but hey maybe I'm the only one who pays attention to ibg YouTube channel
5. Leona another character getting used more and more. Her normals have crazy advantage projectile game is amazing and once she has you in the corner he has a legit 50/50 at any time thanks to her instant overhead which is also cancelable for huge damage. You should learn about characters before you speak on them
6. Ralf better block strings, great meter building ability, air dive punch is safe at all times and is super cancelable, instant air overhead, great footsies, strong normals, ex's that make up for his weakness, ex super with armor and invincibility on it and about a 3-5 frame start up, stun combos that aren't difficult and amount to massive damage, moves with giant hitboxes that stop you from just randomly progressing forward, a sweep that lowers his hit box drastically, cancelable jump jab, cancelable air blow back, a blow back that moves him forward and is relatively fast.
7. No other top tier can reduce the risk of jumping? Lol
Benimaru can change his jump angle in 3 or 4 different ways whileeeee putting a hitbox on the screen that can make you hurt yourself for trying to AA him.lol
Hwa jai can also by air dping himself to the ground
8. Cafeid members play Kim for national pride... You'd know that if you watched their stream when that was explained.
But most also play claw or flame iori as well :)
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Ralfs dive punch isn't really safe. Just throwing that out there. Leonas light run slash thingie punishes it and similar moves for other characters can too. It may actually be safe against some characters, but even some characters who can't usually punish it (as far as i know) can neomax it on block without effort.
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Ralfs dive punch isn't really safe. Just throwing that out there. Leonas light run slash thingie punishes it and similar moves for other characters can too. It may actually be safe against some characters, but even some characters who can't usually punish it (as far as i know) can neomax it on block without effort.
Ill have to test this in the lab but, as far as I know without meter it's not being punished.
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Ralfs dive punch isn't really safe. Just throwing that out there. Leonas light run slash thingie punishes it and similar moves for other characters can too. It may actually be safe against some characters, but even some characters who can't usually punish it (as far as i know) can neomax it on block without effort.
Ill have to test this in the lab but, as far as I know without meter it's not being punished.
Yeah,you have use meter to punish it...the only way I've done it was to use a meter to guard roll after the second hit of the Blitzkrieg Punch and he lands right beside you for the free damage........I never thought about using a Neo-Max against it unless he was the anchor on the team.
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Ralfs dive punch isn't really safe. Just throwing that out there. Leonas light run slash thingie punishes it and similar moves for other characters can too. It may actually be safe against some characters, but even some characters who can't usually punish it (as far as i know) can neomax it on block without effort.
Ill have to test this in the lab but, as far as I know without meter it's not being punished.
Yeah,you have use meter to punish it...the only way I've done it was to use a meter to guard roll after the second hit of the Blitzkrieg Punch and he lands right beside you for the free damage........I never thought about using a Neo-Max against it unless he was the anchor on the team.
That's a massive waste of meter is why. You don't wanna just use Neo max and burn up 3 bars and all your drive for punishes early on or mid way through a game
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But what Kim's have you seen when a major lately? I believe the correct answer is none
Quite a few actually.
Luis Cha used Kim @ SoCal Regionals, he placed in 3rd. Lacid took 2nd at Seasons Beatings, he also had Kim on his team. There was also some Kim @ World Game Cup. Poongko was using Kim, and MadKoF is still using him as well. There was also Northeast Championships with 2 Kim players in Top 8, along with Canada Cup. All recent majors.
BTW, EX Iori was present far more often in Top 8 than Claw Iori.
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But what Kim's have you seen when a major lately? I believe the correct answer is none
Quite a few actually.
Luis Cha used Kim @ SoCal Regionals, he placed in 3rd. Lacid took 2nd at Seasons Beatings, he also had Kim on his team. There was also some Kim @ World Game Cup. Poongko was using Kim, and MadKoF is still using him as well. There was also Northeast Championships with 2 Kim players in Top 8, along with Canada Cup. All recent majors.
BTW, EX Iori was present far more often in Top 8 than Claw Iori.
Once again madkof uses Kim out of national pride not just simply because kim is good.
Poongko I'm assuming did the same.
Also flame iori and claw iori have both been in top 8 a lot. Someone should tally some numbers
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They use Kim cuz of national pride AND he's good.
I mean, seriously, this is Kim. He's good in every game he's in. It's impossible for him not to be good.
It's the same deal with Iori in every game he's in.
I'd argue Benimaru as well.
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They use Kim cuz of national pride AND he's good.
I mean, seriously, this is Kim. He's good in every game he's in. It's impossible for him not to be good.
It's the same deal with Iori in every game he's in.
I'd argue Benimaru as well.
Well with beni's move set its next to impossible to make him bad! Lol
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Well with beni's move set its next to impossible to make him bad! Lol
CvS2.
:(
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Well with beni's move set its next to impossible to make him bad! Lol
CvS2.
:(
Talking Snk main series games only... But cvs2 was very dark place... Filled with top tier horrors
Even akuma is butt outside of his elemental aka mvc2
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you asked what kims have won majors, get a factual answer, then invalidate it because of the players REASON for using him? lol. madkof uses kim, and wins. verna uses him, and wins. lacid uses him, and wins. reynald uses him, and wins. bala used to use iori, doesnt anymore. tokido used to use iori, doesnt anymore. the character is highly capable of hanging with the other top characters, period.
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both MadKOF and Tokido used Kim in WGC just this weekend for what it's worth.
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Daaaaaaaaaamn. This thread has never been so active!
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you asked what kims have won majors, get a factual answer, then invalidate it because of the players REASON for using him? lol. madkof uses kim, and wins. verna uses him, and wins. lacid uses him, and wins. reynald uses him, and wins. bala used to use iori, doesnt anymore. tokido used to use iori, doesnt anymore. the character is highly capable of hanging with the other top characters, period.
Also when have I said Kim hasn't won a major? He just won evo last year...
Bala still uses iori on his main team...
Verna has verna won a major?
Lacid has but mostly with goro work.lol
Iori is still capable of hanging with and beating top characters. The discussion wasn't who can be effective against top tier it's who is the most effective.lol
Duo Lon won majors and stuff to might as well say he is top 5 also by your logic...
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you asked what kims have won majors, get a factual answer, then invalidate it because of the players REASON for using him? lol. madkof uses kim, and wins. verna uses him, and wins. lacid uses him, and wins. reynald uses him, and wins. bala used to use iori, doesnt anymore. tokido used to use iori, doesnt anymore. the character is highly capable of hanging with the other top characters, period.
Also when have I said Kim hasn't won a major? He just won evo last year...
Bala still uses iori on his main team...
Verna has verna won a major?
Lacid has but mostly with goro work.lol
Iori is still capable of hanging with and beating top characters. The discussion wasn't who can be effective against top tier it's who is the most effective.lol
Duo Lon won majors and stuff to might as well say he is top 5 also by your logic...
I know this response is late, but I haven't been to the thread in a while.
Saying "National Pride" for players using Kim is like saying people play Iori for "KOF '98 loyalty and nostalgia": It does nothing to change the fact that both of these characters are incredibly good and have probably merited top 10 (if not better) places in the KOF XIII tier list. Also, Dandy J is saying more than "Kim is on these teams and they're winning majors". He's already discussed several powerful proprties of the character that make him difficult to fight against, and these properties constantly get showcased by all the players Dandy J mentioned who win as Kim. Honestly, I don't have a conclusive opinion myself on who is better of the two even though I lean towards Kim's stronger track record, but that difference (if it's there) is VERY minor.
Also, this discussion happened between me and Juicebox on SCR commentary and I'd like some input: How do people rate Ryo? I personally feel like he's a rising dark horse in KOF XIII thanks to his strong frame traps and midscreen game, as well as highly oppressive corner pressure. His corner damage is also quite high. Then again, you guys probably knew that already. He disagreed and felt Ryo was too obvious of a character and not enough of a standout in anything, going as far as to say Leona , in his opinion, is better, and we kinda left it there. So, opinions?
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Ryo certainly feels capable of being played in any position. Good spacing game, meterless DP, fast cr.C, and gets better with meter. I don't have enough experience to speak on his normals, but outside cr.C are his normals slow? Predictability might also work against him like Juicebox said. It feels like he's constantly fighting to keep you in his space covered by his fireball, and so he has to make a move to get you there, especially if he's behind in life. He doesn't seem to have tools to fight past midscreen, and his EX ranbu is pretty slow too.
I like this topic, and wanted to know how people felt about Mature too. She seems to occupy a spot in the mid-tier but isn't described in the same veins as your Shens and EX Kyos. I don't feel she's at that level either, but can be incredibly oppressive on point and gets a lot of mileage for 1 meter 1 drive. So what do you guys feel about her placement? Some weaknesses I see are she needs a meter for a reversal, and some of her normals don't stack up as well to other characters normals (save close C).
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Hi guys,
I wanted to update my personal tier list based on recent happenings in tournaments and new tech discoveries. My opinions of super top tier have changed dramatically. What do you guys think?
AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, King, Yuri, Takuma, Chin, Shen Woo
A: Vice, Saiki, Duolon, Raiden, Andy, Ryo, K'
A-: Kensou, Kula, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Terry, Daimon, Robert, Athena
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Liz, Ash, Maxima, Mai
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Hi guys,
I wanted to update my personal tier list based on recent happenings in tournaments and new tech discoveries. My opinions of super top tier have changed dramatically. What do you guys think?
AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, King, Yuri, Takuma, Chin, Shen Woo
A: Vice, Saiki, Duolon, Raiden, Andy, Ryo, K'
A-: Kensou, Kula, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Terry, Daimon, Robert, Athena
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Liz, Ash, Maxima, Mai
Seems reasonable. Just two questions:
1. Why not just call it "S Tier"?
2. Which Kyo do you think has an edge over the other?
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based on recent happenings in tournaments and new tech discoveries
AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
The first part it's ok, but the second one? What exactly new was discovered... i missed something? I see almost every finals in the last months and the only thing impressed me was the hwa cross up with rdp b.
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Hi guys,
I wanted to update my personal tier list based on recent happenings in tournaments and new tech discoveries. My opinions of super top tier have changed dramatically. What do you guys think?
AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, King, Yuri, Takuma, Chin, Shen Woo
A: Vice, Saiki, Duolon, Raiden, Andy, Ryo, K'
A-: Kensou, Kula, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Terry, Daimon, Robert, Athena
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Liz, Ash, Maxima, Mai
Seems reasonable. Just two questions:
1. Why not just call it "S Tier"?
2. Which Kyo do you think has an edge over the other?
I don't want to use S tier because S tier traditionally implies some aspect of being broken or unfair, whereas I feel that the difference between the top tier and lower tiers in this game is not quite as significant, as say, AE Yun against the rest of the cast. I believe that regular Kyo has a slight advantage theoretically compared to NESTS Kyo because his damage output with meter usage is much more versatile, but the difference is not significant enough to warrant putting them in different tiers. I think EX iori is significantly better than claw.
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based on recent happenings in tournaments and new tech discoveries
AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
The first part it's ok, but the second one? What exactly new was discovered... i missed something? I see almost every finals in the last months and the only thing impressed me was the hwa cross up with rdp b.
I guess I should rather have said, "implementations of recent tech discoveries". For example, Reynald's use of Kim's midscreen HD combo at UFGT, Romance's various Benimaru traps and various players using advanced EX Iori safe jump setups and counters. All this tech has been around for a few months, but it's only recently that it's actually being implemented successfully.
I just wanted to change my tier list because I honestly believe we can consider EX Iori, Beni, and Kim to be in the same tier as Karate and Hwa now.
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I don't want to use S tier because S tier traditionally implies some aspect of being broken or unfair
I don't agree with this. To me, S Tier has always meant that the characters stand out really well compared to the rest of the roster, but are not necessarily broken/cheap. For those kinds of characters, there is always an "SS" tier or similar. And besides, "AAA+++" not only sounds silly, but implies even more brokenness than "S Tier" does.
But if you're that adverse to S Tier, then in the case of this game, "S- Tier" is acceptable. It makes even more sense to use this, considering the way you construct your list.
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S is easier than AAA+++ lol
In any case, the tier list is pretty compact anyways so it doesn't really matter.
RIP Liz. :(
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AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, King, Yuri, Takuma, Chin, Shen Woo
A: Vice, Saiki, Duolon, Raiden, Andy, Ryo, K'
A-: Kensou, Kula, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Terry, Daimon, Robert, Athena
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Liz, Ash, Maxima, Mai
I agree with the top tier all the way. That's how I felt for a long time now.
I think anybody in this game will kick ass in the right hands, but it suprises me to see Daimon right next to Terry and Athena. I always thought Terry was a bit underrated despite his lack of tools, but suprises me to see him not in the bottom tier for once. Taking note that Terry/Athena aren't in the bottom tier this time.
I wonder why Billy is so low. I know he has his weaknesses, and not the greatest damage output, but he just seems so damn good in the neutral game. I remember asking about him before and the only real answer I got was "he's weak against fireball chars". Why is Billy a bottom tier character? How do I take advantage of his weaknesses aside from throwing out fireballs? I'm not up to date with streams anymore, but he seemed very effective even in top level tournament play.
I could say similar for Joe, but people have always seemed to thought lowly of Joe.
Maxima was always considered low, but I find him terrifying to fight without a good sweep.
As for Mai, she always seems to be the bottom character. She has bad vertical reach and poor wake-up game, but aside from that her normals seem so damn good. Is it really all about the wake-up game/reversals?
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AAA+++: Mr. Karate, Hwa Jai, EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim
A+: Claw Iori, Both Kyos, King, Yuri, Takuma, Chin, Shen Woo
A: Vice, Saiki, Duolon, Raiden, Andy, Ryo, K'
A-: Kensou, Kula, Mature, Ralf, Clark, Terry, Daimon, Robert, Athena
B+:Joe, Leona, Billy, Liz, Ash, Maxima, Mai
I agree with the top tier all the way. That's how I felt for a long time now.
I think anybody in this game will kick ass in the right hands, but it suprises me to see Daimon right next to Terry and Athena. I always thought Terry was a bit underrated despite his lack of tools, but suprises me to see him not in the bottom tier for once. Taking note that Terry/Athena aren't in the bottom tier this time.
I wonder why Billy is so low. I know he has his weaknesses, and not the greatest damage output, but he just seems so damn good in the neutral game. I remember asking about him before and the only real answer I got was "he's weak against fireball chars". Why is Billy a bottom tier character? How do I take advantage of his weaknesses aside from throwing out fireballs? I'm not up to date with streams anymore, but he seemed very effective even in top level tournament play.
I could say similar for Joe, but people have always seemed to thought lowly of Joe.
Maxima was always considered low, but I find him terrifying to fight without a good sweep.
As for Mai, she always seems to be the bottom character. She has bad vertical reach and poor wake-up game, but aside from that her normals seem so damn good. Is it really all about the wake-up game/reversals?
While you are right about any of the characters being able to dominate in the right hands, the tier list factors mostly damage output, utilities, and the characters general use of meter. If a player knows exactly what they are doing, that's when a character really does become terrifying, and that is due to the very nature of the game.
On Maxima's behalf, him being low tier might have something to do with him being a bit slow in a particularly fast paced game but most good players can afford it. Most of the characters in the B+ ranks DO require quite a bit of meter to stay functional - the characters most important tools stem from having meter available.
Billy's reversal options occur if he has meter and has a few problems doing a lot damage from mid screen. The thing is though, Billy is extremely good at building meter and his damage output in general is nothing to joke about either when he does actually corner the opponent. Joe himself does have a practical stun combo off of cr.B and he can zone around quite a bit. But, his safer/best utilities still come from having meter available.... then again, any character that does have meter in this game becomes stronger overtime. Meter = Options. Players like us love having options.
Mai is considered bottom tier because her damage output in general is not going to do her any justice (But, then again, Mai being combo-friendly that is not really her MO in this game - The only time that the Mai player would really have to worry about big time damage is if she does have meter anyhow. She also has to corner her opponent as well. Otherwise, the player is going to have to resort to taking advantage of her mobility, normal moves, mix ups, and small time combos). Mai is rather meter heavy - her better options, safer pressure, and damage output come from actually having meter available. Meter management is extremely important in this game, and frankly there are characters that can handle many situations, even without relying on meter to do so. This why most high level players would utilize Mai as a battery for most of the time. Mai not having a reversal is certainly a hindrance, as she literally needs at least two meters conduct one on reckless opponents.
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I don't want to use S tier because S tier traditionally implies some aspect of being broken or unfair
I don't agree with this. To me, S Tier has always meant that the characters stand out really well compared to the rest of the roster, but are not necessarily broken/cheap. For those kinds of characters, there is always an "SS" tier or similar. And besides, "AAA+++" not only sounds silly, but implies even more brokenness than "S Tier" does.
But if you're that adverse to S Tier, then in the case of this game, "S- Tier" is acceptable. It makes even more sense to use this, considering the way you construct your list.
Yeah I suppose you're right haha. I'll go with S- from now on haha
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Tier naming stuff
Yeah I suppose you're right haha. I'll go with S- from now on haha
LOL I'm sure you had bigger concerns writing out this list. Anyway, my curiosity with your list is aimed at Kula. When I weigh what she does against what most, if not all, of the chars in the tier below her do, I don't see how she's that far above them. I don't see anything in her tool set that particularly makes her difficult to handle, especially with knowledge of where the gaps in her offense are. Please enlighten me.
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Kula actually has really effective corner pressure and great damage off 1 meter 1 drive. the fact that her mid screen combos corner carry adds to her effectiveness. her st. B and cr. B are both really great buttons. i think she's actually a very viable point character if played to her full potential.
basically, i think she has some good stuff that bottom tier doesn't. if you ever get the chance, play against TC realkim's kula. fabricio from Mexicali also has a great Kula.
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I thought hardly anyone played Raiden now. I'm really surprised to see him where he is.
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I thought hardly anyone played Raiden now. I'm really surprised to see him where he is.
KaneBlueRiver just won Northwest Majors with Raiden/Takuma/Vice. Really nasty Raiden.
On the subject of Kula I think her neutral game is really good (her B button in general is insane) and doesn't have a lot of weaknesses, she just can't do damage like some of the top/high tiers can. For a character with no command grab or a reliable cross up she has nasty pressure especially in the corner where it is really easy to get opponents to thanks to the nature of her moves.
I think he is about as middle of the pack as you can get in this game.
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Ive been maining Raiden for the past couple months. Raiden is a good character but really hard to use. He has a very hard to time againt the top tiers especially characters like the Iori's and Kyo's. There agility makes them difficult to hit and Raiden's large size makes their cross-ups difficult to block.
Raiden's saving grace is that his dmg output is crazy good even with the nerfed dropkicks. Once he gets close to the corner he can start doing is super dmging dropkick combos. Also his HOP CD is very good (it's as fast as Takuma's and Hwa Jai's). His overhead is really fast (faster than Kyo and Kim's I believe) and his cr.C is super good too.
Unfortunately some characters in the cast can punish Raiden hard after blocking tackles (especially King and Hwa Jai). Most of the cast can punish it when they have meter.
Also people being unfamiliar with Raiden goes a long way rofl. I wish I had gdlk defense like Kaoru lol
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Not knowing the Raiden matchup does indeed go a long ways but I feel like he is a solid character. He does have issues when characters like Kyo or Iori start jumping on him.
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Raiden definitely has issues against the top tier hop pressure characters, but I think he's high tier anyway. Most the just-under-top-tiers have issues in those matchups. I think that 1) having anywhere juggle tools automatically puts you pretty high tier. Being able to convert off nearly anything is an incredible tool to have, and 2) having an overhead that can be canceled without HD is also extremely useful. Couple that with a 1f cmd grab, a great anti-air dp move, and insane damage output and that's a recipe for high tier character. He definitely has glaring weaknesses but the tools are all there.
As for Kula, I think she's underrated. I can't agree with people putting her at the bottom. Having a long range 4f normal that is special cancelable alone is amazing. She gets full punishes (that many characters can't even get) leading to safejumps pretty easily. Couple that with 2-hit throw normals that are cancelable (which lead to great corner damage for just 1 stock on hit), an amazingly fast/active/lengthy j.B, and amazing guard gauge depletion due to her weird stand A bug, she's solid mid to me. Her DP is okay too. She suffers from not having an overhead and ineffecient damage on her drive cancels but they all lead to easy safejumps in the corner which helps balance it out.
Leona is NOT bottom tier, surprised we're not past this assumption yet. Neither is Billy, especially after his b+A xx spinny staff free cancel tech, he gets great damage.
It's so hard to put people in bottom tier in this game, since the balance is good. Mai and Elisabeth are the two worst characters to me. Mai just has to work a lot harder than the rest, and elisabeth is just so damn stubby she has zero ground game aside from gimmicky slap spam. The fact that she almost has to take to the air to mount an offense really cripples her IMO.
Oh boy there's some nastiness going on in here. Ralf better than Kim? Dive bomber safe at all times? EXs that make up for his weaknesses? Yikes. Not gonna go into that, but no, no, no.
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LOL who said Ralf is better than Kim? LOLOLOLOL
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Ralfs heavy dive punch is pretty much unpunishable on block for some characters unless i've missed something vital. it has startup that he can be hit out of though and it can be rolled on sight and punished as he lands. There are ofcourse also character specific punishes, Ryo can parry it's two hits and then cancel into hcb.D for good damage, if it carries to a corner he gets a srk.C followup.
Kulas close s.C is easily punishable on block for all characters so she pretty much has to cancel it wich in turn means that as long as her opponent has meter there is a risk of him/her gc rolling the second hit of s.C and probably getting a free punish if the kula player is prone to ice breath. her other specials are punishable on block i believe. I think she is good, but some of her normals are lacking and there are holes in her game plan imo.
If you were to make a simpler list of only three groups, how would you place characters?
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Leona is NOT bottom tier, surprised we're not past this assumption yet. Neither is Billy, especially after his b+A xx spinny staff free cancel tech, he gets great damage.
Why people continue to say both those characters are weak is beyond me. Billy has a smothering pressure game when used properly. Not just that he converts counter hit C+Ds into large combos way easier than 95% of the cast with his f+B pogo hop. He can confirm a counter hit into a 40% combo from a decent distance away and in some cases even mid screen!
The thing with Billy is he is a character who is a no thrills character in the sense that his game plan seems bland, but it is very effective. It's all about controlling the opponent once you hit that sweet range.
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Leona is NOT bottom tier, surprised we're not past this assumption yet. Neither is Billy, especially after his b+A xx spinny staff free cancel tech, he gets great damage.
Why people continue to say both those characters are weak is beyond me. Billy has a smothering pressure game when used properly. Not just that he converts counter hit C+Ds into large combos way easier than 95% of the cast with his f+B pogo hop. He can confirm a counter hit into a 40% combo from a decent distance away and in some cases even mid screen!
The thing with Billy is he is a character who is a no thrills character in the sense that his game plan seems bland, but it is very effective. It's all about controlling the opponent once you hit that sweet range.
I can't say much about Leona, but with Billy it's probably the feeling about his reward for playing his poke-based defense isn't as good as what characters with strong offense and damage get for when they do crack him open. I personally think David's list has him below where he should be, though.
Speaking of underrated, that Daimon kid. I'll admit he's matchup dependent, but he feels so oppressive to fight against. Maybe it's that I play a team of Terry, Iori (Claw) and Kim, but he feels like one of the most difficult characters to fight at close and mid-close range because you're always guessing, plus his j.CD rewards him with anything from an instant in to a wall-bounce combo. As per David's list I see him in the A tier in there. I learned King just for this character.
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Leona is NOT bottom tier, surprised we're not past this assumption yet. Neither is Billy, especially after his b+A xx spinny staff free cancel tech, he gets great damage.
Why people continue to say both those characters are weak is beyond me. Billy has a smothering pressure game when used properly. Not just that he converts counter hit C+Ds into large combos way easier than 95% of the cast with his f+B pogo hop. He can confirm a counter hit into a 40% combo from a decent distance away and in some cases even mid screen!
The thing with Billy is he is a character who is a no thrills character in the sense that his game plan seems bland, but it is very effective. It's all about controlling the opponent once you hit that sweet range.
I can't say much about Leona, but with Billy it's probably the feeling about his reward for playing his poke-based defense isn't as good as what characters with strong offense and damage get for when they do crack him open. I personally think David's list has him below where he should be, though.
Defense? Billy is an offensive character. His game is not about opening you up fast it is about grinding you down. He basically is a character who controls you. The thing about Billy is he doesn't even have to be doing anything for you to be in a bad situation.
The thing is though you need to have a really good set of fundamentals and be able to anticipate your opponents moves to make Billy scary, but if you can do that Billy is one of the best point characters IMO. He doesn't need meter to work his core game.
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Leona is NOT bottom tier, surprised we're not past this assumption yet. Neither is Billy, especially after his b+A xx spinny staff free cancel tech, he gets great damage.
Why people continue to say both those characters are weak is beyond me. Billy has a smothering pressure game when used properly. Not just that he converts counter hit C+Ds into large combos way easier than 95% of the cast with his f+B pogo hop. He can confirm a counter hit into a 40% combo from a decent distance away and in some cases even mid screen!
The thing with Billy is he is a character who is a no thrills character in the sense that his game plan seems bland, but it is very effective. It's all about controlling the opponent once you hit that sweet range.
I can't say much about Leona, but with Billy it's probably the feeling about his reward for playing his poke-based defense isn't as good as what characters with strong offense and damage get for when they do crack him open. I personally think David's list has him below where he should be, though.
Defense? Billy is an offensive character. His game is not about opening you up fast it is about grinding you down. He basically is a character who controls you. The thing about Billy is he doesn't even have to be doing anything for you to be in a bad situation.
The thing is though you need to have a really good set of fundamentals and be able to anticipate your opponents moves to make Billy scary, but if you can do that Billy is one of the best point characters IMO. He doesn't need meter to work his core game.
I guess we just define stuff differently, because even though Billy's rush-down works at midrange I look at his game plan of walling off your options with his pokes as being more defensive than your typical Kyo-style rush-down, but I won't split hairs over semantics here. The point was that I think people underrate Billy because they view his ability to actually get combos off his hits to be relatively low and even though he has you trapped if he ever screws up or you find an opening against him you can respond by dealing all that damage right back to him in one go, depending on your character and the opening you find.
Again, I do disagree with that view of Billy (I think he's pretty good), but I'm giving my possibility on why people might underrate him. They do so at their own risk, IMO.
Also I hope we've got some surprises waiting for this year's Evo. Last year's stories were Kim (the strongest overall performing char at the tourney), Duolon and Chin. For some reason I'm thinking Ryo, K', or Daimon (if not all three), especially Ryo. That dude scares me.
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Also I hope we've got some surprises waiting for this year's Evo. Last year's stories were Kim (the strongest overall performing char at the tourney), Duolon and Chin. For some reason I'm thinking Ryo, K', or Daimon (if not all three), especially Ryo. That dude scares me.
Ex Iori Benimaru
Yang yao ren and other people who are doing crazy shit with their fingers are coming this year.
Oh and saiki, don't forget saiki.
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Also I hope we've got some surprises waiting for this year's Evo. Last year's stories were Kim (the strongest overall performing char at the tourney), Duolon and Chin. For some reason I'm thinking Ryo, K', or Daimon (if not all three), especially Ryo. That dude scares me.
Ex Iori Benimaru
Yang yao ren and other people who are doing crazy shit with their fingers are coming this year.
Oh and saiki, don't forget saiki.
To be fair, there's always been quite a lot of Ex Iories and Benies.
Xian was seen doing the Flame Iori rekkas loops on Reynald at CEO yesterday--scary stuff.
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So even though Evo was far more of a player story than a character story, for me here were a few notable character stories (good and bad) from evo:
Kim: This guy. Just about everyone overall had a Kim on their team and he showed a huge level of flexibility excelling in all three positions on a team. Not a surprise and he completely solidified why he's thought of as one of the best.
Hwa Jai: The notable absentee from Evo. We were quaking in our boots about this drunk loon and he never showed up. Gotta wonder why players didn't see him as the choice for them.
Chin: The old man was back with a vengeance this year with notable play from Reynald and Fox among others. Having arguably the best EX moves in the game created an aura of fear of him and I think he could still yet rise among the game's strongest characters.
Benimaru: Reynald exemplified why Beni is so damn powerful even without the infinite. Excellent normals and space contorl, as well as going from mix-up to mix-up kept everyone looking silly with their heads getting grabbed over and over. I gotta say though it felt like people were generally too scared to deal with Iaido kick on block.
EX Iori: The infinite disappeared completely as an infinite in top 8 which showed his players haven't brought him to full potential yet. His impact was good but honestly I can't help but feel more was expected of him.
Duolon: Another year proving he's an excellent point character and among the best at that. The commentary team described him as "The perfect character to hold a lead with" and that is so true. However, many things he got away with before were punished this year showing the progress the scene has made against him.
Ryo: The character I wanted to see make it far and that he did. I do think he was less impactful for Woo then either Kim or Takuma, though. His midscreen control really showed itself earlier in the set against Reynald's Kim and Ryo does present a problem for characters who can't force him to break his hold on the midscreen.
Mr. Karate: Overall it really feels like even though we still think he's the best this character does not cause the heart attacks he once did. Better understanding of how to fight him has helped players come a long way in their matchup with him and hopefully means more appearances for....
Takuma: I was chatting with a bunch of people and kept calling him the final boss of KOF. He pulled out some tough matches and wins, and made a case for himself not to be forgotten in the wake of Mr. Karate. That one-hit pain factor on him makes people scared, and fear breeds idiocy and bad decisions.
If Mr. KOF had gotten further I know I would also have been talking about Ash outperforming expectations as well, though he already did quite well as it is. Overall with so many characters to talk about in terms of learning new things show and seeing awesome performances, we can say this year's tournament was incredible in that regard. The learners in us have a LOT to take away from this tourney and a lot more to explore yet.
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The only person I saw use Hwa Jai was Ricky Diaz and Haregoro and neither player made it far at Evo. I think his biggest weakness is that his jumping normals are lack luster and require tighter spacing than other top tier characters. It requires him to rely on his specials and ground normals more. Plus, all the top players know the match up against him so the drunken tricks that Tokido and Mago pulled out last year are nowhere near effective as before. It's probably why Tokido dropped him for Kim.
I feel Kim is probably the best character in the game now with Mr.Karate behind him. As you mentioned, everybody at Evo had a pocket Kim and his effectiveness was too much. It's the fact that both EX Hangetsuzan and air Hangetsuzan puts so much fear in players during the footsie game. Like you can see Kim jump but you don't want to risk putting a normal out there because he can just do EX air Hangetsuzan and blow through everything and is mostly safe on block. Once Kim scores that hard knockdown he gets free pressure with safe jumps galore and a plethora of simple yet really effective mix ups that either put you back in the same situation or lead to huge damage.
Chin was interesting this year because all the French players used Chin and brought the most tech with him. Fox & Reynald seemed to be the most effective with the character this year. The absence of Chin with MadKOF was surprising considering the role he played in last years grand finals.
I think the one character you missed out on was King. King plays an extremely important role in the game's meta right now, imo. She was underrated last year but I think the developments this year has really shown why the character is extremely good and probably deserving of an S or A rank status. Her passive aggressive play style puts a stop to a lot of characters and she's one of the few characters who can control the top tier characters but it requires really good fundamentals on the King's player part.
Shen was not as abundant this year as he was last year. I think the character weakness is catching up to him but he's still overall a really strong character.
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The only person I saw use Hwa Jai was Ricky Diaz and Haregoro and neither player made it far at Evo.
Ummm, pardon me, but both players made top 16. If that's not making it far then I don't know what is, considering that virtually every match in top 64 was between top players. Hwa is without a doubt still up there, imo.
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The only person I saw use Hwa Jai was Ricky Diaz and Haregoro and neither player made it far at Evo.
Ummm, pardon me, but both players made top 16. If that's not making it far then I don't know what is, considering that virtually every match in top 64 was between top players. Hwa is without a doubt still up there, imo.
Ah I didn't know they made top 16. I thought they got knocked out earlier than that.
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Doesnt it ultimately come down to the player who is playing the character and the match up?
Arent these tier lists a little biased?
I mean come on, unless who ever made the list mastered every character in the game.
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Tier lists are always biased, though typically heavily based on experience/results. Just a way of putting opinion in words. It's up to you to decide whether you think it has any validity. Nothing wrong with discussing them.
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Here's something interesting from Japanese KOF news/bulletins site KOF Koucha.
http://kofkoucha.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/kof-xiii-%E3%80%90evo2013%E3%80%91%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A0%E3%83%BB%E3%82%AB%E3%83%A9%E3%83%86%E6%95%B0%E3%81%AF%E5%9C%A7%E5%80%92%E7%9A%84%E3%81%8B%EF%BC%9F%E3%83%88%E3%83%83%E3%83%97%EF%BC%91%EF%BC%96/ (http://kofkoucha.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/kof-xiii-%E3%80%90evo2013%E3%80%91%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A0%E3%83%BB%E3%82%AB%E3%83%A9%E3%83%86%E6%95%B0%E3%81%AF%E5%9C%A7%E5%80%92%E7%9A%84%E3%81%8B%EF%BC%9F%E3%83%88%E3%83%83%E3%83%97%EF%BC%91%EF%BC%96/)
A breakdown of chrs used in at Evo's top 16 this year:
Kim - six
karate, Shen, beni - five
flame iori, Nests Kyo - four
claw iori, duolon - three
Chin, Takuma, Ryo, King - two
Mai, Yuri, Hwa, Joe , Saiki, Ash, Elisabeth - one
Although kim, karate, shen and ioris were expected it's very nice to see decent representation of some of the others especially at the top. Props to Romance for his team of yuri/beni/king.
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They didn't include koukou and ET's characters:
Koukou plays kim, karate, and claw iori
ET plays clark, benimaru, and karate
*not sure what characters ricky diaz actually used at evo..
With that info, the new list looks like this:
Kim, karate - 7
Beni - 6
Shen - 5
....
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Hey!
I will start travel pretty soon and i need to optimize my team. Can you guys help me please?
I use Raiden as point and Takuma as second character and ... I have no idea what character should i use as third ... i was played EX Iori and point and Raiden as anchor but i feel it`s not really good idea cuz Raiden can kill with 3 bars easy and have some bad matchups :\
Can you recomend me some chars? I was tryed to play Shen and Benimaru but i stop cuz Shen is dumb as fk and Beni is so hard for me :\ Im practice with Kim right now but may be you can recomend some options?
Raiden and Takuma dont need rly a lot of mether you know.
Sorry if i chose a wrong thread :o
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Hey!
I will start travel pretty soon and i need to optimize my team. Can you guys help me please?
I use Raiden as point and Takuma as second character and ... I have no idea what character should i use as third ... i was played EX Iori and point and Raiden as anchor but i feel it`s not really good idea cuz Raiden can kill with 3 bars easy and have some bad matchups :\
Can you recomend me some chars? I was tryed to play Shen and Benimaru but i stop cuz Shen is dumb as fk and Beni is so hard for me :\ Im practice with Kim right now but may be you can recomend some options?
Raiden and Takuma dont need rly a lot of mether you know.
Sorry if i chose a wrong thread :o
I don't think this is quite the right thread for this my friend.
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Hey Fidoskin,
Feel free to start a thread here, thanks.
http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?board=19.0 (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?board=19.0)
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I've been wondering for a while about Saiki's placement on the tier list. Davidkong's tier list from months ago placed him in A tier, right below Vice. He is six spots away from King, the other zoning master (mistress?) in the game.
I've always known that Saiki is very economical with his meter. But it wasn't until I saw DarkChaotix's latest video, which features a 2-meter 100%, that made me think he should be placed higher than he is. King got where she was mostly on her zoning game. Why is it that Saiki wasn't placed higher despite his own zoning game, which in my opinion rivals, or even surpasses, King's?
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Why all players love kim so much. I mean many people play with kim but, so few with Elisabeth??? whats the mystery???????
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I've been wondering for a while about Saiki's placement on the tier list. Davidkong's tier list from months ago placed him in A tier, right below Vice. He is six spots away from King, the other zoning master (mistress?) in the game.
I've always known that Saiki is very economical with his meter. But it wasn't until I saw DarkChaotix's latest video, which features a 2-meter 100%, that made me think he should be placed higher than he is. King got where she was mostly on her zoning game. Why is it that Saiki wasn't placed higher despite his own zoning game, which in my opinion rivals, or even surpasses, King's?
In my own opinion, King's neutral and aggressive play is a bit better than Saiki. Playing with both, I think landing a regular meterless bnb as well as pushing people into the corner is much easier. I also would say her standing low, relatively safe blockstrings, and easy hit confirms make her an easier character to win with. Doing 100% HD combos takes some work and usually not necessary if you can keep your opponent out.
I also feel her zoning is better because she can change her trajectory and poke people out of the air with her fireball. Air-to-air approach seems more dangerous with limited effort.
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Why all players love kim so much. I mean many people play with kim but, so few with Elisabeth??? whats the mystery???????
Ease of use.
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I think people use kim for two main reasons. 1. He is top tier 2. He is cool. He is easy to just do stuff with, but i don't think that is it because he became way more common after competitive players started showing off his dumb sides. Elizabeth to me is pretty lame because of both her character and move designs, she used to be more common than she is now.
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Kim is easy but if you play Elisabeth well enough, she can be extremely annoying and tough.
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I've been wondering for a while about Saiki's placement on the tier list. Davidkong's tier list from months ago placed him in A tier, right below Vice. He is six spots away from King, the other zoning master (mistress?) in the game.
I've always known that Saiki is very economical with his meter. But it wasn't until I saw DarkChaotix's latest video, which features a 2-meter 100%, that made me think he should be placed higher than he is. King got where she was mostly on her zoning game. Why is it that Saiki wasn't placed higher despite his own zoning game, which in my opinion rivals, or even surpasses, King's?
In my own opinion, King's neutral and aggressive play is a bit better than Saiki. Playing with both, I think landing a regular meterless bnb as well as pushing people into the corner is much easier. I also would say her standing low, relatively safe blockstrings, and easy hit confirms make her an easier character to win with. Doing 100% HD combos takes some work and usually not necessary if you can keep your opponent out.
I also feel her zoning is better because she can change her trajectory and poke people out of the air with her fireball. Air-to-air approach seems more dangerous with limited effort.
About time someone responded to this lol...
I didn't really take Saiki's normals into consideration when I first asked this, and now that I think about it, they don't have the greatest reach. I can't believe something so simple as allowing her to use her fireball in the air really changed her. It really does make you uneasy to approach her in the air, even if you're playing as someone like Kim or Mr. Karate who have decent air space control.
Thanks for the response.
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No problem. I didn't even think about when you posted it (Sorry modgods for necropost), but I think it was an interesting thing to bring up.
Most of the top players play characters not because they do a lot of damage since everyone can do relatively enough damage to kill anyone (Case and point, Maxima). However, they're just overall easier and more oppressive for the least amount of effort (Case and point, Hwa, Kim, Mr. Karate, Shen). Playing competitively or even playing to WIN is enough strain to make you screw up. Easy characters make it easy for you to win even if you mess up or capitalizing off of more things for higher damage.
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"The Fluke", still billy is also uncommon. Iori is such a good player but Ex Kyo is more famous than him (I personally iori more after seeing Yang Yao Ren playing in MM FT5. He did a combo of 52 hits on round 1 that means no stock or gauge in hand.)
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I've been wondering for a while about Saiki's placement on the tier list. Davidkong's tier list from months ago placed him in A tier, right below Vice. He is six spots away from King, the other zoning master (mistress?) in the game.
I've always known that Saiki is very economical with his meter. But it wasn't until I saw DarkChaotix's latest video, which features a 2-meter 100%, that made me think he should be placed higher than he is. King got where she was mostly on her zoning game. Why is it that Saiki wasn't placed higher despite his own zoning game, which in my opinion rivals, or even surpasses, King's?
In my own opinion, King's neutral and aggressive play is a bit better than Saiki. Playing with both, I think landing a regular meterless bnb as well as pushing people into the corner is much easier. I also would say her standing low, relatively safe blockstrings, and easy hit confirms make her an easier character to win with. Doing 100% HD combos takes some work and usually not necessary if you can keep your opponent out.
I also feel her zoning is better because she can change her trajectory and poke people out of the air with her fireball. Air-to-air approach seems more dangerous with limited effort.
They both excel at different things. I personally love both characters.
King's zoning has a little more flexibility how you can throw out fireballs since you can vary the height, speed, and also make King bounce back using the HK air fireball, but don't underestimate what Saiki can do. His main perk is the fast recovery of his fireballs and also just how easy it is to set up a meaty fireball situation with Saiki. Almost off any kind of hit Saiki has enough time to throw out a fireball and begin applying pressure. It's a little harder to do with King without sacrificing screen position or damage.
One area Saiki outshines King is in a comeback situation. King just doesn't do enough damage consistently while Saiki can do a crap ton. Saiki's 2 bar combos do at least 80% and in the right situations can become 100%. Even the basic 1 bar 1 drive combos deal 50% or better. King's combos on the other hand cap out around 50-70% without spending a ton of meter. King is awesome at holding a lead, but coming back from a deficit is something you typically don't want to do with her.
As far as rush down each character has their different tools. Saiki has a better jump arc for rush down and his air mobility is more suited for baiting anti-airs. Also having the command grab super gives him an option King doesn't have. King plays a better sustained pressure game from a range
I could list several other differences, but you might get the point. They each have things they do well that the other character doesn't
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"The Fluke", still billy is also uncommon. Iori is such a good player but Ex Kyo is more famous than him (I personally iori more after seeing Yang Yao Ren playing in MM FT5. He did a combo of 52 hits on round 1 that means no stock or gauge in hand.)
Is he? I'm sure there have been more EX Iori players recently then EX Kyo, though both characters are very popular (for both logical and nostalgic reasons).
As for Saiki vs. King, I think the discussion covered most of it so I'll refrain from rewording the same comparisons. Regardless, I honestly place them right next to each other as far as rankings go, and that's usually pretty high up (around where David has King on his list).
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*meghnad. Billy is very easy to play, but my point was that kim has other traits to back him up. Billy is nowhere near as good, but is probably easier to play. I see enough of both versions of iori and kyo as should be expected but i don't think i've ever played against anyone using EX iori's loops.
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I think the tiers are becoming a lot more clear for this game. EX Iori, Benimaru, Kim, Karate, possibly EX Kyo are tops. I think right behind them are characters like Shen, Claw, 13 Kyo, Takuma, Hwa, Chin, Yuri, possibly Duo Lon with recent tourney results. There might be a few more characters sprinkled into that second group that aren't represented as much, and it is also very debatable.
The top group feels to be dominating tournies as far as character representation goes. In theory I think EX Iori and Benimaru are the best because of the ridiculously meter efficient combos they can do if you have the execution. Kim and Karate seem to be generally the best because of how practical their really good stuff is.
This isn't to say that the othe characters aren't viable (because I know someone is going to bring up how Mai and other lower tiered characters are making top 8) but I do think there is a much more noticable gap than before.
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I think it's pretty meh to rate characters in a single list in this game. How do you compare the greatness of Duo Lon, who's a superb point, to someone like Claw or Vice who loves to anchor it up? I don't think you do. Spot-specific tier lists seem much more suitable for this game IMO.
Why the top tier is dominating representation in tournaments is because they're universal - one character can dance with Duo Lon on point, and, placed third, with Claw as an anchor. Having more of them on the team also gives nice perks by enabling the player to game matchups more by shuffling team order around, and some extra benefits if you have to reverse OCV (where a solid low-meter point-style neutral is beneficial for an anchor) or happen to get a hot streak with a point (where you can be more opportunistic with meter use effectively, and your other characters will suffer less for it), though the latter is a bit less relevant because you're winning anyway.
It's the same how you see not top tiers like K' in just about every slot - he just works well enough anywhere, just not top tier well.
Basically, build a team, want a point - Duo Lon fits. Another wants an anchor, so he goes Claw. Or both just like Karate more and play him.
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I don't completely agree with your statement. When you rate a character you have to take into consideration every aspect of the game and the characters into consideration. Duo Lon is a great point character but he has multiple weaknesses and isn't very versatile in team positioning so he should be ranked lower than Mr.Karate who is also an amazing point character with very strong tools, less weaknesses, and is good in any team position.
The top tiers being dominant in this game is a combination of their good tool sets, few weaknesses, high damage for little resources, and versatility in team order. They generally have favourable match ups against the majority of the cast and require less time to learn and be effective with than other characters in the game.
This being said, I strongly believe that KoF's 3v3 system and overall game mechanics help mitigate tier disparities to a certain extent. Top tier characters will always be commonly played at high level in any game but KoF is one of the rare games where you can see low tier characters do well in tournaments.
Toshi winning that Peruvian tournament and going even against Bala with EX Iori/Athena/Kensou and TC| Pako getting 3rd at SCR with Duo Lon/Elisabeth/Mai are some of the best examples of this.
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I don't completely agree with your statement. When you rate a character you have to take into consideration every aspect of the game and the characters into consideration. Duo Lon is a great point character but he has multiple weaknesses and isn't very versatile in team positioning so he should be ranked lower than Mr.Karate who is also an amazing point character with very strong tools, less weaknesses, and is good in any team position.
The top tiers being dominant in this game is a combination of their good tool sets, few weaknesses, high damage for little resources, and versatility in team order. They generally have favourable match ups against the majority of the cast and require less time to learn and be effective with than other characters in the game.
This being said, I strongly believe that KoF's 3v3 system and overall game mechanics help mitigate tier disparities to a certain extent. Top tier characters will always be commonly played at high level in any game but KoF is one of the rare games where you can see low tier characters do well in tournaments.
Toshi winning that Peruvian tournament and going even against Bala with EX Iori/Athena/Kensou and TC| Pako getting 3rd at SCR with Duo Lon/Elisabeth/Mai are some of the best examples of this.
Of course the universal quality should be accounted for. Even if Karate and Duo Lon both scored, say, 95/100 on "point character goodness", Karate should still be rated higher because of his extra flexibility to stretch into other roles. That's 100% as it should be.
Agreed 100% on the rest of the post.
The thing I'm trying to say here is, though, that we have characters like Duo Lon who's absolutely splendid on point, and atrocious as an anchor. How the hell do you put characters like that on a single tier list? Rate point performance only? Or rate anchor performance, or some odd amalgam of the two? Even more importantly, how can you begin to compare him to someone like Claw or Vice whose reason for existence is to be an anchor and turn meter into a dead character off a touch? When they're built to do different things and usually are not even competing with each other for a slot on the team directly? Like, "Is Duo Lon or Vice better" is a non-question to me. It's just invalid. Which is better as a point, battery or anchor is a question where an answer can be found. And to each of those, we can say that Karate is probably a bit better, and have that answer be a valid one.
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It isn't a perfect science and I understand where you are coming from about certain characters specializing in certain spots.
I feel the top tier in this game can play 1-3 which is what EX Iori, Beni, Kim, and Karate can all do. I am hesitant to put EX Kyo in that group with them because although he is a fantastic point, I don't really see a reason to stick him anywhere else. I think the best teams in the game are any combination of Flame/Kim/Karate/Beni or EX Kyo/(Beni/Karate/Kim/Flame).
The group below specializes in a certain slot but in that slot they REALLY excel.
It's hard to measure tiers in this game because it isn't as Vanilla as a game like SF4, but I think you can generalize characters to a point to where you can say this group is better than this next group which is better than the next and so on.
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A side note on Duo Long. I think he is a great point character but a lot of the times can look more dominant than he really is. He is really strong against people who get annoyed easily and start playing dumb. I put myself in that group, I always seem to get bodied by Duo but it is usually the result of getting rekkad a few times and then losing composure just trying to go in and get rid of him.
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A side note on Duo Long. I think he is a great point character but a lot of the times can look more dominant than he really is. He is really strong against people who get annoyed easily and start playing dumb. I put myself in that group, I always seem to get bodied by Duo but it is usually the result of getting rekkad a few times and then losing composure just trying to go in and get rid of him.
Not that I disagree with your point per se, but I kind of feel that's an unfair generalization of how people look at characters with great screen control. Duolon doesn't just punish stupid play IMO. He and King are such strong point characters not just because they punish rash decisions, but also because they can FORCE them. When either of them takes a life lead, they usually place you in a position where many of your options aren't as effective, and you have to chase. That chasing involves the risk of making a wrong or stupid decision, but they put you in the position where you have to consider that kind of approach.
Again, not that Duolon doesn't make rash idiots look the part (because he does). I just feel like his type of character doesn't get enough props sometimes for what they can do.
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It isn't a perfect science and I understand where you are coming from about certain characters specializing in certain spots.
I feel the top tier in this game can play 1-3 which is what EX Iori, Beni, Kim, and Karate can all do. I am hesitant to put EX Kyo in that group with them because although he is a fantastic point, I don't really see a reason to stick him anywhere else. I think the best teams in the game are any combination of Flame/Kim/Karate/Beni or EX Kyo/(Beni/Karate/Kim/Flame).
The group below specializes in a certain slot but in that slot they REALLY excel.
It's hard to measure tiers in this game because it isn't as Vanilla as a game like SF4, but I think you can generalize characters to a point to where you can say this group is better than this next group which is better than the next and so on.
I actually feel though rating based off position is better because for instance while Kim can go nearly anywhere I feel he isn't as good of a point character as a character like Duo because to get the most out of Kim you need at least a couple bars to be a major threat.
A side note on Duo Long. I think he is a great point character but a lot of the times can look more dominant than he really is. He is really strong against people who get annoyed easily and start playing dumb. I put myself in that group, I always seem to get bodied by Duo but it is usually the result of getting rekkad a few times and then losing composure just trying to go in and get rid of him.
Duo looks as dominant as he does because his neutral game is that dominant. He has one of the few neutral games where if I have 2 bars you can't jump in any way I can react to, can't just run in, and if you have a character who struggles to punish the rekka > teleport I can go nuts with those.
Duo is probably the best in the game at holding a lead because of how long it takes to get in on him. His major weakness is of course he doesn't do much damage himself which is why he suffers in the anchor spot, but early on in the game his damage per meter spent is really good. When you lack options to deal with Duo that match up is probably one of the hardest to play against.
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So I feel that discussion here tends to slow down a lot from time to time, and I would like to provide a suggestion to help with that. Take a look at this Dustloop thread regarding Blazblue Continuum Shift: Extend (BBCSEX)
http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4368-bbcs-extend-tier-list-thread/ (http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4368-bbcs-extend-tier-list-thread/)
To give the big takeaway from this, Xie uses a set of parameters to rate each character and come to an overall rating (NOTE: NOT the average of the above ratings). Here are what he used and how I think we can apply them to KOF (where applicable):
Reward Assessment: A general outlook on a character’s average damage and heat gain, taking into account how often maximum or minimum damage situations can occur. Also assess other potential rewards.
Definitely applicable in terms of average damage and meter gain, as well as how often a character can land full damage based on different combo starters from different situations.
Neutral Viability: A review of how well the character fairs in neutral situations, especially in respect to how the character can shift into an offensive or damage dealing state, as well as avoid being put into a defensive or receiving damage state.
Also highly applicable. Space control options (different angles of aerials, projectiles, jump arcs, etc.) present several good comparison points.
Offensive Viability: An overview of the character’s ability to create damage opportunities when they have the advantage, as well as prevent the opponent from escaping or safely retaliating.
Pretty self-explanatory. Some characters in KOF maintain pressure better than others, while others make up for lack of solid pressure by using potentially damaging mixups and traps.
Defensive Viability: An evaluation of the character’s ability to escape from situations where they are at a disadvantage or create opportunities to retaliate.
Strength of reversals and unique defensive options would weigh the most here.
Versatility: A flavorful descriptor with little impact on tier placing, a brief assessment of how many options the character has at any given time. Ranks: Very Specialized > Specialized > Well Rounded > Very Well Rounded
Don't know how much we can use this (or how much it would matter) due to KOF's more universal character design when compared to Blazblue.
One-Chance: A flavorful descriptor with little impact on tier placing, an assessment of how well the character can make a comeback in a one-chance situation. Takes into account meter availability, potential mixups, useful reversals, and damage.
Tough one to use as well. HD combos give many characters a way to "One Chance" a victory. On the other hand, certain characters have much scarier ways to convert their chance (e.g. Vice with full HD and an EX sleeve handy)
Current Assessment: General assessment of all factors. Current placement on the list
Final grade. As noted above, this would not be an average of the above factors, but rather how the factors come together to form the package that is the character.
One I would add would be:
Team Flexibility: How well a character adjusts to being on different spots in a team in terms of meter need/usage relative to their teammates, as well as how they adjust to opponent's different options and resources based on their position
The team dynamic makes a difference as we have pointed out numerous times in this thread.
I think we can do something like this here, where we could have a week-long discussion for each character where one member presents their assessment, and we go back and forth on how we view the different factors and come to a conclusion by the end of the week. Once that's done for all characters we can compile a Dream Cancel tier list based on that. The list isn't the goal, however. The goal is to have a real in-depth discussion of the characters' strengths and weaknesses that can help new information come to light, especially when considering lesser-played characters.
As for which members suggest the character discussions, I wouldn't know how to establish a priority among us, so for now all I can suggest is that goes in turns, and no one member can start the discussion twice in a row.
Please let me know what you guys think. If you feel you have a better way to conduct the discussion (timelines, parameters, etc.) do mention that as well.
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So I feel that discussion here tends to slow down a lot from time to time, and I would like to provide a suggestion to help with that. Take a look at this Dustloop thread regarding Blazblue Continuum Shift: Extend (BBCSEX)
http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4368-bbcs-extend-tier-list-thread/ (http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4368-bbcs-extend-tier-list-thread/)
To give the big takeaway from this, Xie uses a set of parameters to rate each character and come to an overall rating (NOTE: NOT the average of the above ratings). Here are what he used and how I think we can apply them to KOF (where applicable):
Reward Assessment: A general outlook on a character’s average damage and heat gain, taking into account how often maximum or minimum damage situations can occur. Also assess other potential rewards.
Definitely applicable in terms of average damage and meter gain, as well as how often a character can land full damage based on different combo starters from different situations.
Neutral Viability: A review of how well the character fairs in neutral situations, especially in respect to how the character can shift into an offensive or damage dealing state, as well as avoid being put into a defensive or receiving damage state.
Also highly applicable. Space control options (different angles of aerials, projectiles, jump arcs, etc.) present several good comparison points.
Offensive Viability: An overview of the character’s ability to create damage opportunities when they have the advantage, as well as prevent the opponent from escaping or safely retaliating.
Pretty self-explanatory. Some characters in KOF maintain pressure better than others, while others make up for lack of solid pressure by using potentially damaging mixups and traps.
Defensive Viability: An evaluation of the character’s ability to escape from situations where they are at a disadvantage or create opportunities to retaliate.
Strength of reversals and unique defensive options would weigh the most here.
Versatility: A flavorful descriptor with little impact on tier placing, a brief assessment of how many options the character has at any given time. Ranks: Very Specialized > Specialized > Well Rounded > Very Well Rounded
Don't know how much we can use this (or how much it would matter) due to KOF's more universal character design when compared to Blazblue.
One-Chance: A flavorful descriptor with little impact on tier placing, an assessment of how well the character can make a comeback in a one-chance situation. Takes into account meter availability, potential mixups, useful reversals, and damage.
Tough one to use as well. HD combos give many characters a way to "One Chance" a victory. On the other hand, certain characters have much scarier ways to convert their chance (e.g. Vice with full HD and an EX sleeve handy)
Current Assessment: General assessment of all factors. Current placement on the list
Final grade. As noted above, this would not be an average of the above factors, but rather how the factors come together to form the package that is the character.
One I would add would be:
Team Flexibility: How well a character adjusts to being on different spots in a team in terms of meter need/usage relative to their teammates, as well as how they adjust to opponent's different options and resources based on their position
The team dynamic makes a difference as we have pointed out numerous times in this thread.
I think we can do something like this here, where we could have a week-long discussion for each character where one member presents their assessment, and we go back and forth on how we view the different factors and come to a conclusion by the end of the week. Once that's done for all characters we can compile a Dream Cancel tier list based on that. The list isn't the goal, however. The goal is to have a real in-depth discussion of the characters' strengths and weaknesses that can help new information come to light, especially when considering lesser-played characters.
As for which members suggest the character discussions, I wouldn't know how to establish a priority among us, so for now all I can suggest is that goes in turns, and no one member can start the discussion twice in a row.
Please let me know what you guys think. If you feel you have a better way to conduct the discussion (timelines, parameters, etc.) do mention that as well.
I genuinely love this idea. Nothing else really to say about it other than we should get the ball Rolling on this ASAP
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It does seem like it could be interesting. Kind of hard to pick a character to start with and give him/her a rating, but if we start with a top character and set a standard, we could work our way down from there.
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It does seem like it could be interesting. Kind of hard to pick a character to start with and give him/her a rating, but if we start with a top character and set a standard, we could work our way down from there.
Sounds good! I think Kim can be a good example to start with, but I sadly don't have time to make an initial write-up at the moment. I'll try to make it as thorough as possible, but of course the goal is to discuss it and come to a conclusion among ourselves.
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So here's my shot at Kim. The max rank for any parameter is S. How low can it go? Won't set a bottom. Use whatever sense of scale makes your point in terms of defining balance gaps. I typically wouldn't go below C for example.
Also, NOTHING IS SET IN STONE! This is just my current view, and the goal is to come to a consensus. Preferably, I would hope not to take longer than a week discussing one character so that we can move through the cast at a decent pace. Without further ado, here goes:
Kim Kaphwan
Reward Assessment:S- rank.
Subpar meterless damage, good damage with meter and in some situations deadly with meter (specific corner HDs). Gets a hard knockdown from just about all combos that lead to safe jumps / mixups, which puts him in his strong offensive state. With more overall damage would be S for sure.
Neutral Viability: A- Rank.
Kim has no options outside his poke range beyond moving forward. He gains more with meter thanks to EX hangetsuzan. Once in poke range he becomes more dangerous thanks to the threat of standing D making opponents more passive, which opens up the rest of his buttons. He can get lamed out thanks to not having any anti-projectile measures.
Offensive Viability: S Rank.
Getting hard knockdowns off of any hit and the amount of pressure he can keep up afterwards is what makes Kim the monster that he is. His buttons both serve to pressure and to contain attempts to escape, and his long hit confirms have many layers of frame traps. He also has an overhead as an added threat when he has HD ready.Has a unique anti reversal tool in air EX Hangetsuzan.
Defensive Viability: A+
With meter, access to the 3-frame EX Hienzan makes safe jumping Kim difficult for many characters. Hou'ou Hiten Kyaku (qcf x 2 +K) is a viable reversal against extended ground pressure, as well as a good anti-air and nets a full combo to the ever-so valuable hard knockdown. Instant Air EX Hangetsuzan helps as a slower, safer optio with tons of invincibility. Meterless, Kim can struggle because his fastest invincible move is D hienzan (8 frames). His 3 frame close D can help, but it doesn't cover above him all that well and can lose to strong jump-ins. Overall, deals well with wakeups, not so much with pressure.
Once Chance: S Rank.
Hard knockdown shenanigans and good HD damage have made Kim one of the leading anchors, and with good reason.
Team Flexibility: S- Rank.
Point: Loses damage output but still has the buttons and the hard knockdowns to work with. Probably weakest position and what stops him from a pure S rank.
Second: Gets more meter to work with which strengthens him in all phases. May have to conserve for his anchor if things get rough which would limit him.
Anchor: Gets all the meter to play with and doesn't have to worry about anyone else. Gives him the most flexibility and maximizes his strengths, typically more so than most of the game's cast.
Current Assessment: S rank.
Kim is a very strong character with great options that put him into favorable situations from which he can keep forcing more pressure and damage. His lack of truly strong meterless options, as well as his neutral being limited in certain areas, are the main factors stopping him from vying for the rank of the best.
EDIT: Decided to take off the minus and make his rank S. He is still not the #1 character but he is definitely deserving of ranking among the very elite.
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Your character breakdown seems sound to me. I think Kim's biggest weakness when compared to EX Iori (a in some ways similar top tier) is damage, because both of them have great normals and both of them get hard knockdowns off of bnb's but EX Iori gets upwards 100 more damage on a meterless bnb. Kim still has most of his pressure regardless of having meter so i think that what position he has on his team doesn't matter that much when you're just looking at him. Instead you get to think about whether you need to save a certain amount of bar or drive for your next character for some reason.
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Your character breakdown seems sound to me. I think Kim's biggest weakness when compared to EX Iori (a in some ways similar top tier) is damage, because both of them have great normals and both of them get hard knockdowns off of bnb's but EX Iori gets upwards 100 more damage on a meterless bnb. Kim still has most of his pressure regardless of having meter so i think that what position he has on his team doesn't matter that much when you're just looking at him. Instead you get to think about whether you need to save a certain amount of bar or drive for your next character for some reason.
My main issue with Kim on point is that he doesn't come out of the box with his EX specials available. That means losing both his best whiff punish and his best reversals, as well as giving more opportunities for safe jumps against him. Understandably that's a weakness other characters suffer from, too, but I think Kim loses more from it because his meter-based tools add that much more to him as strong as he is already.
I agree that it doesn't matter that much but on a comparative basis with some other characters (as will probably be apparent when we get to them) it's enough to not get the full grade here.
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I was a bit skeptical when I first saw the new Arcadia tier list placing EX Iori above everyone, but after seeing a lot of high level play since then I no longer have those doubts. It seems people have really figured out how to maximize his talent. There's quite a bit of players now who can do his rekka loop in tournament play.
Here's to 2014 being the year of EX Iori! (With 2012 being the year or Mr. Karate and 2013 being the year of Luigi... I mean Kim. Of course, I'm only basing this off of what I saw in high level play during those years...)
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I tried to make a list of the ten best point characters in the game for fun. It's actually really hard O_o. Five or six or so are pretty trivial, but a full Top10 is just hard IMO.
So for fun and activity, your personal point character Top10? Doesn't have to be in order or can be in order or grouped or whatever, however you wish.
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It is hard to make a top 10 for point cause thats based upon a player like i prefer to use shen takuma and ralf on point
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So I feel that discussion here tends to slow down a lot from time to time, and I would like to provide a suggestion to help with that. Take a look at this Dustloop thread regarding Blazblue Continuum Shift: Extend (BBCSEX)
http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4368-bbcs-extend-tier-list-thread/ (http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4368-bbcs-extend-tier-list-thread/)
*explanation*
After attending IGT, I am feeling inspired enough to try finishing this now. Time for the second writeup, this time on the point heroine of IGT's champion team, King!
Reward Assessment: B+ Rank
King is not about damage overall, but she is capable of some damaging drive cancel combos on par with some of the stronger characters. Her HD damage is where she severely lags behind, but it's not a crippling weakness by ay means. Most of her damage comes from the next category, or the threat of it at the very least.
Neutral Viability: S Rank
King has every space control tool in the book. Between standing A,C,D and crouch C for anti airs, slide for low profile anti airs, j.CD and j. B for air to air , j.D and j.CD for jumpins, she's got a lot, and this is before we get to her great projectile game. Venom Strike is very good, but its air version is what seals this deal by providing a unique angle that no other character can consistently cover, and allows her to win aerial battles especially when backing up. She even gains long range anti airs with meter thanks to EX tornado kick. Neutral is where King shines, her biggest strength by far.
Offensive Viability: B+Rank
King can keep some lengthy, if predictable, hit confirms going. The fear of her crouch to stand B chains and her ability to poke if the opponent tries to escape too early can make her a threat once she gains the advantage, and makes her throw game stronger, giving her hard knockdowns to work with for crossup attempts if necessary. (EDIT THANKS TO EX WILD WOLF) Midscreen, she can reset using standing B into Venom Strike off a B Tornado Kick, which keeps her in a very advantageous position. The predictability is what keeps this lower, as is her potential vulnerability to GC rolls if she keeps canceling into Venom Strike. Her 1-frame Neomax can be a nice one-time surprise off a crossup hop if you so desire a crazy killing method.
Defensive Viability: B+ Rank
Without meter, King has nothing to fend off a disadvantaged state aside from guessing with her buttons if she senses a chance, and although her buttons are good, that is still risky. With it, she gains some situational reversals that can help her out. Surprise Rose (both versions) help her against any errant safe jumps, and EX trap shot and tornado kick are invincible enough for the read situations. Her Neomax is a unique 1-frame option but can be too costly as a defensive measure unless it kills. Good ground-based offense can murder her, and that is what keeps her rank as such.
One chance: C+ Rank
King can definitely keep momentum going her way well with her neutral. That being said, she is always liable to get lit up in big meter situations thanks to her relatively low overall damage. Don't rely on her for comebacks.
Team Flexibility: B rank
Point: Her spot. This is where she gets to go to work, and mistakes cost far less. Also, the opponent won't have as many options to get in, augmenting her powerful neutral
Second: Viable spot to consider thanks to her useful drive cancel combos, but makes her more open for opponents to take her out with meter
Anchor: Highly suboptimal thanks to her low HD damage and how unfavorable she compares to the rest of the cast in that aspect.
Current Assessment: A Rank
How can she get this despite having lower ranks all around? Simple: Her neutral really is that good and allows the rest of her game to function well enough to make her very threatening, to the point that opponents have to potentially plan matchups around her. One of the game's elite point characters.
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All right... time for the next character. I'm basically going to be doing these as often as I can since I want to keep momentum here. Next up: The popular (as a person) yet not so popular (in player base) hero of SNK, Terry Bogard!
Reward Assessment B Rank
What Terry gets from hitting, both in advantage and damage, doesn't stand out overall. His meterless damage is not good, his drive cancel damage is OK, and his HD damage is only situationally high, and average otherwise. Off Burn Knuckle and Buster Wolf, he gets to pursue into his poke/pressure range, but not much more. His confirms build decent meter, which feeds his drive cancels.
Neutral Viability A- Rank
Terry has several strong neutral tools. Pokes (Stand C and D, stand CD) anti airs (Stand A,C,df.C, Crack Shoot, Rising Tackle, Power Geyser) and a decent grounded projectile (power wave). With meter, he gains a strong "forcing" tool in EX power wave. With two meters, he can beat projectiles with EX buster wolf about half a screen away. This all sounds really strong and should have him higher, but the only reason it isn't is that he has to compare to the likes of King, Kensou, Karate, and others and he doesn't force mistake as well as they do, and is more unsafe on his errors.
Offensive Viability B Rank
This rank is almost entirely based on two things: Terry's good hit confirms (close C, crouch target combo) and how much Terry can hurt the guard gauge. EX powerwave also creates good offense for Terry that forces opponent actions. He can get a good hard knockdown situation with either throw or EX crackshoot. Otherwise, his offense off most of his knockdowns doesn't stand out. In pressure, he either resets to neutral with A power wave, or risks a crack shoot, which can be low profiled or reversal'd out of. His hop arc is a bit high and slow, which somewhat nullifies his best jumpin (j.D). Granted, the higher jump can help him clear reversals if he baits them, but that isn't an exclusive strength to Terry. EX crackshoot is his only quick way to force a high block, and it is not very safe at -4. Overall, the risks Terry carries if he tries to go pure offense, and none of his options really standing out, is what keeps this from going any higher.
Defensive Viability B+ Rank
An invincible reversal that can be drive cancelled for solid damage (C rising tackle) as well as a 4-frame metered reversal (EX rising tackle) contribute to Terry needing some care when he's attacked. His selection of anti airs and his ability to weave back out of pressure (that isn't in the corner) with stand CD help him keep an opponent's offense honest. His vulnerability to safe jumps is problematic, however, as is the rising tackle's hitboxes starting lower to the ground, making them more vulnerable to being jumped over. His crouch target combo can be a good defensive deterrent if he spots a big enough gap since that can net him a full combo. He also suffers somewhat from having a rather large hurtbox for his character type. Terry is solid in defense but can be exploited with a good read.
One Chance: B Rank
Not the most reliable comeback character. He can't keep up an offense too consistently and that limits his ability to maintain momentum, and despite his good confirms he can struggle to land that significant hit. Decent, but you have better options for this.
Team Flexibility: B+ Rank
Point: Safest neutral spot, and will typically build one drive cancel meter when opponent is at half life setting up his KO.
Second: His other good choice. Gets more meter to drive cancel with for decent damage while getting access to his best reversal.
Anchor: His weakest spot due to his HDs being subpar. Odds are you will have another character better suited here.
Current Assessment: B Rank
Terry is solid and capable in most categories without standing out in any one of them enough to make him go above this rating. Characters below him tend to have specific, more pronounced weaknesses, which is not quite true of Terry.
EDIT: I felt in hindsight I slightly overrated a couple aspects and the overall rank. Doesn't change the reasoning behind anything, just what the final result is in each case.
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Next up, continuing with the trend of SNK heroes, Ryo
Reward Assessment: A- Rank
Ryo's damage is actually quite good. Granted his midscreen meterless damage isn't much, but one meter on him (and preferably some drive) and he can carry to the corner to get his strong corner pressure going. His corner combos are quite damaging when optimized, including getting close to 500 damage off a hop D with a 1-meter drive cancel combo. His throw is a hard knockdown which is always nice, but he can't do as much with it midscreen. His HD damage when optimized is also quite strong. His meterless midscreen damage and lack of strong knockdown setups are what prevent this from going higher.
Neutral Viability: A+ Rank
Ryo's neutral, particularly at midscreen, can be very oppressive to many characters. His projectile has a bigger hitbox than it lets on, and allows his other tools to be more threatening than his pure frame data lets them look, including stand C and D (especially this, with its long cancelable window), as well as sweep. Kouken stuffs normal projectiles on its way as well. Add his anti airs (crouch C, DP, EX Ranbu) into the mix, as well his strong j. CD, and you have a potentially dominant presence. with meter and drive, he gets EX Kouken, and he also gets the ability to super cancel into his Ranbu for big damage from neutral. His parries add a unique dimension to his neutral that can catch errant pokes/moves from the opponent. The reason he doesn't rank higher is that a correct whiff read from the opponent can be costly, and put Ryo to where another Kouken attempt can get stuffed, and any other whiffed poke means a punish. Still strong though.
Offensive Viability: A- Rank
Ryo's midscreen offense isn't much to write home about. A Kouken leaves him at neutral, which is the core of his offense, but that is vulnerable to GC rolls should the opponent call it out. His crouch B is plus on block, his crouch C is 3 frames (linkable from crouch B), and his standing D has tons of cancelable frames. Those three moves form a good set for Ryo to rely on while attacking. Both the heavies have lengthy recovery though, so be careful. His overhead is another strong tool that (with some work) is confirmable into supers and HD combos. He can cancel into his low parry off his heavies for seemingly quick recovery, but that option is not actually safe if the opponent sees it. His air game comes with the beefy j.D and the well-rounded j.CD. Add his hard knockdown throw and you have a solid offensive kit, held back by the risk factor if he misses (long recovery) or is read correctly.
Defensive Viability: A- Rank
A Kouhou is a 4-frame DP with decent range and enough invincibility to trade at least, and the fully invincible C version can carry a super cancel threat when Ryo has the meter to burn and finds a good read situation for its slow speed. EX Ranbu can be the heavy call against hesitant blockstrings, as well as a long-range anti air, similarly to Mr. Karate. Crouch C's speed can also make is useful under staggered pressure, when buffered into a Kouken (and maybe into super after that). Ryo has typically solid "shoto" defensive options, and his vulnerability to safe jumps are his primary weakness here, with the secondary being his punishability if he guesses wrong.
One Chance: A- Rank
Ryo's HDs can do quite some damage, and with meter he can carry across the screen very quickly. He also has good drive cancel damage and corner carry, enough to be a very viable threat from one chance. He also has the threat of an overhead to super/HD if necessary.
Team Flexibility: A Rank
Point: Gets more breathing room in terms of neutral and mistake penalty, and will build enough meter when he needs it for a combo.
Second: May be his best choice. Gets access to his corner carry combos and stronger damage from both neutral and combos
Anchor: Augments his choices in second, enough to make him a decent option here, but not stronger than the elite anchors due to a weaker knockdown/mixup game
Current Assessment: A- Rank
Ryo is a rock-solid character who is powered up by a strong neutral, and can get good damage from more than just his combos. He suffers from a rather high risk factor in close-range situations and that is what holds him back.
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Frofighter, whether or not I agree, these are are good reads. I'm enjoying the write ups.
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Body Organ, thank you! I'm always down to discuss anything that I post, and I am willing to alter ranks based on the discussion results! I'm trying to do every character before the Evo side tourney, and hopefully afterwards there will be a reflection to see how things change.
Now on to one of SNK's oldest characters and series mainstay, Ralf!
Reward Assessment: A Rank
Ralf's damage is very good, particularly in the corner. His meter building is passable when he optimizes his combos thanks to the extra heavy punch link after QCF+C. Midscreen, his damage takes a bit of a hit, but he gets to finish his drive cancels with a hard knockdown super which grants him a basic mixup. His HDs are also some of the better damage available in the game, with legitimate 3-meter kills on hand. He also has a stun combo in the corner, should you require it for a kill. He is a bit resource-heavy, but his combos make it worth it.
Neutral Viability: C+
Ralf is a very polarized character in neutral. On the one hand, he does well against non-projectile characters thanks to a host of strong pokes at several ranges, and his j.CD providing a good hitbox for all-purpose aerial fights. His stand CD moves him forward a great distance and is +3 on block, helping to get him in/ set up whiff cancel shenanigans. His Dive Bomber gives him a rare method of changing his jump arc, baiting counterpokes. However, against projectile characters/characters with superior air games, he can really suffer. He has no straight answer to projectiles beyond moving forward and/or hoping to Dive Bomb over them, and his average air speed and low jump height don't help matters. His anti air game is also suspect, as his df+A is not that strong for that, and everything else he has is on the slow side. His air game has a blind spot above him that he can't cover at all, augmenting this issue against opponents who opt to attack him from above. His pokes are his saving grace and they can be nullified depending on the matchup.
Offensive Viability: B-
Ralf can keep up fairly solid pressure with a combination of frame traps. His Bs (standing and crouching) are both plus on block, and qcf+C is positive as well and takes a good chunk of guard gauge. Stand CD can be used to stagger pressure on its own or combined with QCF +C. He also has an instant overhead in hop D, and his short hop is useful enough on the inside with some solid jumpins (j.A, j.D). However, his somewhat lacking hop speed can stunt this. His instant overhead is his fastest way of opening up a low block, but it puts him in a more neutral state which can be bad depending on the matchup. He is rather predictable and lacks solid hit confirms, but his blockstrings are safe enough to nullify GC roll threat. Overall, his offense is OK and the damage threat behind it is what counts.
Defensive Viability C- Rank
This is where Ralf's woes come to the fore. His defensive options are very poor overall. His only fully invincible reversal doesn't have much invincibility (Bareback Vulcan), and his armored EX QCF+AC can be thrown. He doesn't have a 3-frame normal for breaking out of pressure, and his standing A is 5 frames making it difficult to snipe hops with depending on how it was set up. He is also rather large, making him more vulnerable to crossups, as well as incapable of low profiling certain attacks other cast members can. The only saving grace is that his reversals grant him a good momentum shift IF they land. His biggest crippling weakness.
One Chance: B+ Rank
Ralf's high damage and strong poke range make him a scary threat to get that one chance and obliterate your life bar with it. That being said, his neutral and defensive weaknesses make it difficult for him to find that chance to begin with.
Team Flexibility: C+ Rank
Point: Safer bet, but he loses out on his best possible damage and knockdown rewards, and loses what little he has defensively
Second: May be his best position due to the meter situation. His defensive issues can get exposed with bigger punishes, but the opportunity for damage may well be worth it
Anchor: Tough choice to justify. He has the damage for it, but many of the top anchors will make it hard for him to find his chance, and that's not what you want to rely on.
Current Assessment: C+ Rank
Ralf's poking ability, decent pressure, and damage potential are what keep him out of the lower reaches of the cast. His defensive frailty and neutral blind spots are considerable weaknesses, and make him a choice you have to balance out with characters built to set him up/ make use of his meter if he bites it.
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Onto the next character. Another old character that made his series debut in XIII, Hwa Jai!
Reward Assessment: S Rank
No mistake about it, Hwa's reward for hitting is among the best available in this game. He may not have the best meterless damage, but the rest of what he has makes up for that. His drive cancels give strong corner carry midscreen, and his corner damage is very strong with them. His HDs will corner carry very easily, and he can do some absurd damage with them in the corner using his tiger-knee'd air DP+B. This is all before we get to his damage after activating his drinking super, which is outright the best possible for the resources barring perfectly executed infinites. A terrifying damage powerhouse for sure.
Neutral Viability: B Rank
Hwa's buttons, particularly on the ground, are quite strong. Very few characters if any can boast having normals like his standing D, or being anywhere between neutral to positive on almost every single grounded button he has on block. His stand CD will beat lows and/or grant him +4 on block. They need stricter timing to function as anti airs though, as they do not hit as high as he would like. He does have an invincible DP (albeit a slow one) and his EX super can work for long-range punishes/guesses/anti airs. I His run and jump speed are subpar, and he has a high jump arc, making him easier to anti air despite his good aerial normals. He has no strong answers to projectiles, with his only legitimate one (EX super) being very risky. Overall, despite his normals, Hwa's mobility aspects and specific neutral weaknesses hamper his strength here.
Offensive Viability: A- Rank
Hwa doesn't maintain big offensive strings outright. That being said, the moment he is in, his big normals will keep the opponent thinking twice about how to escape, and they keep Hwa advantageous enough on block to keep his momentum. His slide is a nice hit confirm, with lots of cancelable frames giving a possible "mixup" if it's blocked between whether Hwa will stay grounded or go for a possible Dragon Tail crossup attempt.He can even frame trap/gain frame advantage with a delayed slide. His air game benefits from his ground game but can still be an issue due to his jumps being a bit slow. However, it gives him the "Dragon Tail from a blocked aerial" option, which is a very scary option both on block and hit. Hwa's offense may not be the most airtight, but his strong damage factor and normals can give him enough to earn those coveted openings.
Defensive Viability: B+ Rank
Hwa's defensive options are a mixed bag. His only invincible DP variation is a whopping 8 frames of startup, making it too slow to deal with any safe jumps and only suited for big reads if you have the meter ready for a drive cancel. His 4-frame EX super can work if you spot a chance for it. His A command grab super has a 2-frame startup, enabling it to punish many things other moves can't touch. It will lose to safe jumps though since it will likely come out too soon. He doesn't have a 3-frame normal but the 4-frame ones he does have are good on block, enabling him to stifle momentum should he find a big enough gap for them. It's the possible reward that keeps this rank solid, as a successful defense from Hwa can lead to big damage/a knockdown that is worth the resources spent. The risk and resources necessary are what make his defense not as strong as it could be.
One Chance: S Rank
One of the best threats from a single opening, especially should he have drink or HD available. His flexible killing resource usage make him even more of a threat in this regard.
Team Flexibility: A Rank
Point: Least justifiable position. The lack of resources can be very limiting. Only do this if your opponent has a point character you think he can out-footsie
Second: One of two very good choices. He can be at his most drink-oriented here in order to not hog resources, and proceed to get greedier if he can gather momentum
Anchor: Another good choice and gives him full meter flexibility, but you will be in trouble if he comes up against a tough neutral matchup here
Current Assessment: A+ Rank
Despite his neutral issues, Hwa is a very dangerous threat overall with huge damage possibilities, with enough ways to get in and land them.
OK... This is one where my opinions on specific aspects have changed quite a bit and I'm not 100% sure how to place them. However, I have no doubt that Hwa is incredibly strong and dangerous, and it baffles me that we don't see him as much as we used to once upon a time.
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Next up, Andy Bogard!
Reward Assessment: B+ Rank
Andy's damage struggles to stand out. He has average damage in just about every situation, with his corner meterless and drive cancel damage being the only potential standout if he goes into a fwd+A combo starter to get Kuuhadan break in there. He can get decent corner carry midscreen, again with Kuuhadan break giving a lot more if it's involved. His HD damage is pretty standard fare compared to other characters. Overall Andy gets average damage for the most part with his corner damage being better than enough characters to notch that little plus there.
Neutral Viability: A Rank
The core strength of the little Bogard brother. His basic projectile game is quite good, offering enough variability purely on his Hishoken. Varying up its strength and how he handles the situation after can make him tricky to approach. Shoryudan offers a typical invincible anti air, j. CD is a great all-purpose aerial, Zaneiken can catch rolls through even from a distance, and his sweep is a strong poke that even has anti air applications. Stand CD canceled into Hishoken will reestablish your distance game on hit, and the normal itself provides good protection in front of Andy. His other normals are somewhat stubby, but you mostly won't need them to come into play aside from some niche uses (close D for close anti airs, j. B for quick air-to-air, etc.). Neomax provides a bonus cherry topper if you have it stocked at KOF health ranges thanks to its crazy speed and how it can connect from many situations, such as linking off a Zaneiken or EX Hishoken at midscreen. Andy has a lot of good screen control, and that is his best strength. With stronger normals he would have been higher for sure.
Offensive Viability: B- Rank
Andy's speed and 3-frame close C are the main aspects here. He doesn't have much pressure beyond typical crouch B,A and hopsies, and his block strings tend to disadvantage him or push him out. His standing B,D target combo is a solid confirm but it pushes him out of Kuuhadan range, and fwd A commits him to a cancel because it is unsafe on its own, and doesn't have that many cancelable frames. No special he has other than Hishoken is safe on block, making him vulnerable to GC rolls if he overcommits. J.CD helps matters for his hop game thanks to its all-purpose hitbox, and his conversions if it counterhits will land him some nice damage/meter/advantage. His throw offers him a safe jump/crossup opportunity (j.D being his go-to crossup). Overall, he doesn't have many standout offensive tools, and has to resort to a basic KOF-style mixup. His j.CD and 3-frame close C keep him from scoring lower.
Defensive Viability B- Rank
For all their uses in his neutral, Andy's uppercuts (Shoryudan) are less impressive on defense. They are all on the slower side of startup (5 frames for A and EX versions, 7 for C version). The EX version is only good to call opponent actions on the ground, as its forward movement can make it whiff hits on airborne opponents, costing you the advantage you were hoping to gain. His close C is not as good defensively since it hits only in front of him, making it susceptible to hops/jumps. His other normals are run-of-the-mill here and will require careful use if you commit to defending yourself with one. He gets by solely on having fully invincible reversals for the opponent to consider, and on the very niche value of his Neomax being an extremely fast yet resource-heavy punish.
One Chance: B+ Rank
Stocked with meter, Andy can kill with two chances like most characters. His neutral will aid him here, and he can use the threat of Neomax to spook the opponent into being more passive. Not bad, not great either.
Team flexibility: B+Rank
Point: Keeps his neutral free of opponent's meter-based options. He does enough solid damage here to make this a good position for him. May be his best position.
Second: Gains some solid options, mostly for his combo conversions. Basically his point game with more reward, so not the biggest gains compared to some others. Still solid enough.
Anchor: Hard to justify overall. If he comes in against a full team it is difficult for him to reverse OCV due to his not-so-stellar offense, especially once he has spent all his meter.
Current Assessment: B+ Rank
Andy's neutral makes the rest of his (seemingly weak) tools work well enough to make him a solid character choice, capable of holding his own against many cast members. He will struggle against high-pressure offense and/or characters that can keep up with/outdo his neutral.
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Been a bit busy, but on to the next entry to close off Team Fatal Fury, Joe Higashi!
Reward Assessment: A+ Rank
There will be a running theme in this analysis in general. Joe has a stun combo. This combo is his goal/main threat, and what he and his opponent will play around. This combo does a lot of damage, and Joe is quite a high damage character from his best confirms even if he doesn't land the stun. He can get this combo from ground confirms and anti-airing with golden heel/counterhit CD as well. Why not a higher rank? Because if he doesn't have drive to spend Joe can't quite establish an advantageous enough situation to keep pressing his offense. He can force a blocked Hurricane Upper from many knockdowns, but that is as good as it gets until he gets the crucial drive meter to corner carry and go to town. His stun combo will build back some meter while it goes on which is always nice.
Neutral Viability: B- Rank
And the downhill trip begins for Joe. His neutral is his most passable state, thanks to Hurricane Upper, jump CD, and Tiger Knee (especially EX) being effective at establishing some form of zoning to work with. Add Golden Heel into the mix for a long-range anti air that he can combo off of and it doesn't seem so bad. He can also utilize sweep and slide for low-profiling, though the risk/reward on those is questionable. However, here are the issues. Joe's normals other than his CDs (both) are anywhere between average to just plain subpar, and this troubles him at midrange. Hurricane Upper is not as large as it looks, being possible to hop over at what appears to be part of its hitbox. Standing CD being his best midrange hitbox by some margin comes with dealing with its slow startup. He can spend a meter on EX slash kick (HCF +K) or space a B version carefully for a safe approach, but having to go to those lengths show his deficiencies here and why his seemingly strong tools don't provide what they should.
Offensive Viability: C Rank
Joe's blockstrings and confirms are simply not tight enough to constitute a strong offense. His forward B command normal has very long recovery on its own making a cancel necessary, which commits him to doing one if he's gone that far. He doesn't have an option from here that beats both invincible moves and GC rolls, so he runs the risk of being disrespected on offense.Otherwise he will limit himself at doing standard cr. B, cr.A chains. St.A to slide to A rapid punches (Bakuretsuken) is one way he can gain advantage, but he needs to be close enough for that to connect correctly and nothing to whiff. His ability to use Golden Heel to prevent escapes from the air is handy and will give him a combo if it lands. His jump arc is nothing special either, not allowing him to fully utilize a strong hop game. Joe's combo threat is the main thing that can keep an opponent passive against his offense, and that can only last so long against an opponent that knows the answers.
Defensive Viability: C Rank
Joe has one bona fide strong reversal: EX Tiger Kick. Despite its 6-frame startup, there is one little tidbit: Joe wakes up from hard knockdowns faster than other characters, making this reversal a lot more viable in those situations than its speed lets on. It also has great range. Sadly, that is where it stops. Joe's other invincible move is D Tiger Kick, and that is VERY slow. His normals (aside from crouch A) are all 5-frames and above, and with their mostly lackluster hitboxes they can struggle to aid him, other than the low profile on his sweep and slide (maybe). Joe has to take great risks to try to stop offense, and he just doesn't have enough good tools to do so overall.
One Chance: B+ Rank
It's that combo again. As long as Joe has that threat, that's what keeps him in and gives his player any psychological advantage whatsoever. If he were better at landing it this would shoot up much higher.
Team Flexibility: B Rank
Point: No meter to use his best asset with, but the opponent will have fewer answers when Joe goes on the offense. Depending on matchups, it can work, and if Joe takes out the first character he can have resources to carry momentum onto the second.
Second: Probably offers him his best risk/reward scenario. He should have the resources here to do his damage and carry further momentum to the next round, and should it not work out, at least there is an anchor to cover him.
Anchor: Weak case. He will do all the damage if he hits, but needing to match up to most other anchors can leave him with really tough tasks to overcome, and he honestly isn't the most suited to them.
Current Assessment: C Rank
Joe has a high threat factor but has to work hard to actualize that threat. With some better offensive tools he could have been a much bigger threat. A shame when you think of what stronger characters with similar possible damage outputs can do to land their combos and how well they can pigeon-hole the opponent into their threat zone compared to Joe.
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Honestly, as a Joe player i find that you are a bit harsh on your rating of him. He gets 700 + damage on HD combos that go from corner to corner without using bars. He can not use drive to wallcarry from a grounded confirm and get stun combo as it seems that you say. Joe has great combo options and some unusual options for extra hitconfirms thanks to s.D and df.B.
I agree that joe is weaker than his good side let on, but i think that you still understimate him.
In my opinion, one of the most notable issues with Joe is how he suffers from bad matchups. He doesn't have any reliable meterless anti airs aside from s.A/s.C. Against characters like Terry, Joe can barely anti air with normals at all. Terrys j.D beats all of Joes normal options clean, including slide. Furthermore he and characters with similar jumps tend to beat Joes srk.D clean aswell. This forces joe to save meter if he wants to anti air because srk.B+D works, except that their jump arcs usually cause him to just fly away beneath them when they are jumping around over him. This, coupled with the fact that command throws cripple Joes mixup game are the real killers for him imo.
Good writeup, i like that your putting effort into this.
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@ the Fluke: I get where you're coming from but in a lot of ways you echoed my sentiments on him. Joe's got great damage but he struggles in a lot of phases outside when he's comboing you. His confirms aren't the worst but I compared him to what other characters can do and to me they felt lacking, especially because of how slow his normals are on average and how much has to commit. I could be wrong of course. Thanks for the feedback!
For the rest of the writeups, I'll be doing what I should have started with: Do the characters as per character select screen order, starting from Team Japan. The DLC characters will be done last.
So, without further ado, our hero, Kyo Kusanagi!
Reward Assessment: A Rank
Kyo's meterless damage and corner carry are among the best available in the game, and his BnBs build him lots of meter and put him in position to go for his next offensive series. With one meter he can carry almost across the entire stage from a cornered position. However, his rewards get more marginal as his meter goes up, descending more and more into average, particularly with HD. The damage is still enough overall to keep him a threat, with his strong offense allowing him the chances to work in his next hit. His sweetspot is his drive cancel corner combos, as that is where he can gain the most damage, including a possible stun combo/ reset situation. His rewards are definitely good. Others just happen to be better.
Neutral Viability: A- Rank
Kyo has the natural tools for good enough control of the neutral, with a typical projectile/DP combination, and a couple of solid mid-range normals at his disposal, with stand D being the most notable. His jump CD is a wall-like hitbox that can get him crucial counterhits into easy knockdowns with HCF + K. His fast hops and run speed can allow him to close distance quickly to get to his strong offensive game. However, certain mid-range spots are tricky for Kyo to navigate, particularly at times where his stand D can get outpoked. His meterless anti air game works best closer to his body, but add one meter and gets EX RDP+K, which can anti air from very far distances. Even better with two meters is EX Orochinagi and its 2-frame startup. Kyo has all he needs here, but can struggle depending on his meter situation and matchup, and that is what prevents all these strong tools from ranking him higher.
Offensive Viability: A+
Kyo is scary up close with a host of good pressure tools, including jump CD, his 3-frame close C, and the crux of his offense, jump down C. That attack gives so much hit stun it is practically almost a confirm on its own, and the fear of it can make the opponent try to commit to risky options to try to stop it. It also has great crossup ability, particularly off jumpin pressure or hard knockdowns such as his throw. Its only issue is the potential to stuffed/low profiled depending on timing, but mixing in a j.CD or j.B can scare the opponent off of trying that. With meter, he gains a 180-damage command grab to further his mixup, and with HD he adds an overhead possibility. His hit confirms could use being a little more varied for pressure purposes, but they still do their job. With 2 meters, he has the hilarious possibility of linking an EX Orochinagi from his close C. If Kyo could maintain strict pressure for longer and/or gain more damage as his meter went up, this would be even higher.
Defensive Viability: A
Kyo's no slouch on the defensive. C DP, while not the fastest reversal, is fully invincible and drive cancelable off the ground for a combo. EX DP and EX command grab are 4-frame reversals that each come with their own situations where each is better, and with two meters, you have the unique 2-frame EX Orochinagi for punishes that most characters can only dream of. Wanting to jump over any of these options can open the opponent up to Kyo's close C, putting Kyo back into the mix. The main drawback is that Kyo's defense is meter-heavy for its best options, and if he uses that to survive it can limit his resources when he goes back on the offensive. Meterless, his options aren't as intimidating here either. Still a threat to be respected especially when he has meter.
One Chance: A Rank
Kyo's great all-around toolbox and solid rewards will keep him in with a chance for the most part, as he can typically get one hit and use it to set up his killing scenario. If he didn't need to commit harder than the stronger characters for this he'd rank higher.
Team Flexibility: A+ Rank
Point: Strong meter building and the opponent has fewer options to answer him with. Will struggle if he's on the back foot, though.
Second: Probably his ideal position. His biggest marginal reward gain with meter is on his corner drive cancels, and midscreen he will (ideally) have his one-meter corner carry to get there faster. HD can work for him as well if he has weakened an opponent enough to make it viable to kill.
Anchor: Weakest case for him but he is still capable here because of his well-rounded nature. His HDs being rather pedestrian is what holds him back from making a stronger case here.
Current Assessment: A+ Rank
With his wide variety of options in several situations, many of which lead him to gain offensive momentum, Kyo is a very strong and dangerous character. With better rewards overall (especially in damage) he would have been among the game's elite.
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Moving on through team Japan, time for Benimaru Nikaido!
Reward Assessment: A+ Rank
Beni is a lop-sided character when it comes to his rewards. Midscreen, he absolutely has to spend meter to get his best corner carry and combo conversions, especially since he will default to comboing into Iaido (QCF+K) in most situations. A command grab nets him a hard knockdown for either a crossup or ambiguous role. It all becomes so much better once the corner is near though. Even without his potential corner infinite off a drive cancel, Beni has very strong corner damage for a drive and a meter, and he can get it from many different openers into EX Raijinken, including EX command Grab, Iaido, and even normal throw in the corner. This basic low/throw game in the corner is terrifying from Beni especially, and one of the big reasons he is regarded as a very strong character. He doesn't score higher due to his lacking meterless damage, and the lack of setup potential/momentum after a lot of his midscreen combos, and his HDs not being anything special, especially midscreen.
Neutral Viability: A+ Rank
Beni's neutral is very... odd. He doesn't have the biggest set of tools, but the tools he likes to use are very strong. Stand B and stand D form a nice combination of air and ground coverage for pokes, with B doubling as an anti-hop. Iaido is another important tool due to being a 5-frame move with immense range, but it should be used sparingly due to its long recovery.Stand CD has decent speed and is positive on block, adding another dimension just inside his stand D range, as does his speedy (6-frame) cancelable sweep. His jump arc may not seem all that, but coupled with his all-purpose j.D, it becomes a tricky approach that can mess with anti air angles due to its strange arc. His anti air capabilities are solid, between his standing B, DP+D, and QCBx2+P super, he covers many possible attacking angles, and that aspect helps him keep the skies clear for him to take initiative.
Offensive Viability: A Rank
For how little pressure Beni actually maintains, his offense can be very potent. Beni's normals are average in speed, so their ability to help his pressure are dictated by him establishing an advantage to work them in first. Beni won't establish advantage all that easily, but once he does, he plays a strong passive offense where he walls you in with his possibilities, primarily his long-reaching pokes and the possibility of a DP if you attempt to get out. His basic low/throw mixup is very potent, especially with meter, and even moreso near the corner. However, there is one issue with Beni and that is hitconfirms. Crouch B chains are his only legitimate confirm from the ground, which costs him some flexibility in his combo starting options. His jumps' strange arcs combined with j.D (and j.B and j. CD if you have a read for their angles) can help him clear defensive poke/anti air attempts and come down and punish. Cornered opponents will be scurrying to get out as quickly as possible, and Beni has a multitude of ways to keep them trapped between his Raijinkens (ground and air), pokes, and DP. If Beni could frame trap/chain/hit confirm better to minimize his risks this would have been significantly higher.
Defensive Viability: A+
Beni's defensive options are nice and varied, with each allowing him to cover certain options. DP covers above him when the opponent neutral jumps or hops. Command grab and Iaido kick are both potent punishes within their respective ranges, each of which will put momentum back in Beni's favor. His Rolling Thunder (QCBx2+P) is a strong call against crossup setups that will still catch in the front as well. If the opponent's keeping all these in mind, it can make them approach from suboptimal angles or in a way that's safer for you to try to escape. He is susceptible to safe jumps though, and all of his strong defensive options will leave him open if the opponent fakes Beni into doing the wrong one. Regardless, his options here are quite good, and with a fast normal up close for breaking pressure he would have been even better.
One Chance: A Rank
Beni loaded with meter will usually kill in two hits, the first of which sets up the second. His strong air game and throw mixup can put him in prime position to take home a kill. His HDs are easy enough to land should they be the optimal option based on the opponent's health.
Team Flexibility: A- Rank
Point: Probably his weakest spot. Loses his corner carry and big damage possibilities out of the box. Still has his pokes and strong air game, but can struggle more than normal when knocked down due to losing Rolling Thunder and EX DP.
Second: Strong choice. Beni is able to function on drive meter alone and his supply should be good here. His options should all be available so he can be the full threat he is capable of being.
Anchor: Arguable choice, but riskier than second if he winds up short on drive meter. He is capable but you will find stronger options here.
Current Assessment: A+ Rank
For a character once considered one of the best, this may seem a surprising rank. I still see him as basically a measly step below being S-, with that step being tighter pressure that doesn't allow the opponent to guess on him as much. Still a very scary threat with his air game and throw game, and his corner payoffs are ridiculous.
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All of these are very interesting to read. I can't wait for them all to be done =) I also can't wait for a couple other characters in particular.
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All of these are very interesting to read. I can't wait for them all to be done =) I also can't wait for a couple other characters in particular.
Glad you're enjoying it so far, man! On that note...
Time to round off Team Japan with KOF's trademark big man, Goro Daimon!
Reward Assessment: A Rank
This is less based on Daimon's damage output (which doesn't stand out all that much when you see it) and more about how great his post-hit/combo situations are. Everything Daimon does off a hit leads to a safe jump/grab mixup afterwards, thanks to his command roll giving him all his grab options when he chooses to attack behind it. He has several counter-call measures in his mixup to stop the opponent from escaping, and that is where his strength is. His typical combo structure usually requires him to spend drive to keep you cornered, which is a bit of drawback. His damage output, as mentioned earlier, isn't really a standout factor either. His momentum is really that good and the main factor in him getting this rank.
Neutral Viability: B- rank
This may even seem high for a character as large and slow as Daimon, but it comes down to the matchup. Against characters where Daimon can habitually play at his standing B range, his neutral is very scary because any hit can land him that precious knockdown. Add his collection of anti airs (stand D, anti air grab, etc.) and he can give close-range characters fits. His unique j.CD is another threat, as a counter hit from it gives a counter wire (wall bounce) which again leads to knockdowns, or even an HD combo. The other side to this story is zoners, which are Daimon's nightmare. Careful zoning is something Daimon can't handle well, even with his command roll and earthquake. The earthquake recovers rather slow, potentially negating the advantage he attempts to gain from it. His big size and slow movement don't help here at all, and make certain matchups very problematic for the big man.
Offensive Viability: A+ Rank
Feeding from his reward assessment, Daimon on the offensive is terrifying. His multi-layered mixup from a stand B to command roll can cover a lot of options. His big suite of anti airs are great at preventing escapes if he decides to hold back, and as long as he is within reach you are never truly out of his offense. Jump CD is a unique threat, especially near the corner, as at that distance it guarantees combo followups for him. Up close, he can use stand A chains to confirm and/or gain a little frame advantage. So why isn't this higher? Simply put, he runs the grappler risk. If the opponent gets one good read on Daimon, he is going through a command grab whiff, which means major punishment. Avoiding this kind of guess can require the Daimon player to try playing a safer mixup, taking the edge off. That is what keeps his offense out of the elite ranks.
Defensive Viability: B Rank
Daimon's defense suffers the grappler issue more than any other. Granted, his punish game is strong with a 1-frame command grab and 4-frame standing B. The issue is that, with any reversal Daimon attempts to use, he tempts fate. One wrong choice and he is eating a full combo. What makes this rank not any lower is that a successful Daimon defensive read grants him a knockdown, sometimes into a super cancel for some nice damage. If his reversals had better anti-safe-jump measures and/or weren't so awful on whiff, this rank could have been a whole different story. As it stands, he is too risky on defense, and if he chooses to play it safer then he can get rushed down quite easily.
One Chance: A Rank
It's all about that momentum again. If Daimon gets in and runs his offense he is capable of many a comeback, and he can spend meter to make many rounds end in 2 hits. Again, the typical grappler risk is what keeps him below the bona fide comeback masters.
Team Flexibility: B- Rank
Point: Contrary to what people used to think, this may be (depending on the matchup) a very strong case. The opponent doesn't have as many answers, and Daimon's mixup doesn't require meter to be effective. He also doesn't suffer as much from mistakes.
Second: Still a solid case, but one where his risk/reward will have to measure up to that of the opponent. Mistakes will mean more here for Daimon.
Anchor: Again contrary to where people saw him once upon a time, Daimon as an anchor runs the risk of dying very quickly off any mistake, and his high meter-spending for HD damage can limit what rewards he can get afterwards, especially if he needs to take out more than one opponent. Against just one, he can be a strong choice. Beyond that he can suffer.
Current Assessment: B Rank
This may seem low when you look at all the above ratings, but I believe Daimon's risks hold him back from being a truly strong character. He is solid, and does all you want a grappler to do, but he doesn't go far beyond that, and in a game with such a legitimate touch-of-death threat potentially looming frequently, this doesn't serve his purposes or playstyle well.
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Two write-ups in one day, why not? Since all of Team Fatal Fury is already done, time to go to our first mid-boss, Billy Kane!
Reward Assessment: B
Billy's damage off the right openers can be very good, especially near/in the corner. The only issue is that his best ranges and general plan aren't necessarily conducive to landing said damage. Billy isn't a defensive character per se, but he gets his biggest/least risky mileage by walling with pokes, leaving his reward for most of his hits a bit low. His post-knockdown situations aren't the greatest either, not usually setting up anything particularly special, but the possible exception being his throw's hard knockdown. His corner damage is the primary factor raising this rank, and it is definitely worth the trouble.
Neutral Viability: A Rank
Billy's neutral at his preferred ranges is a wall of utter annoyance. Between fwd. A, crouch C, jump A and C, and jump CD, Billy has a great toolbox full of pokes great at irritating the opponent into mistakes, which he can capitalize on. His EX DP, while a tad slow, works well as an anti air that gives him a combo afterwards, and makes opponents weary of trying to exploit the potential (small) blindspot in his anti air/air to air game by coming in from 45 degrees above. Another issue Billy faces is how he handles characters with similar poke zones/ fireballs, as his stick is a hurtbox that can get him in trouble, and his mobility isn't the greatest. It's matchup dependent for sure, but very few characters can keep up with Billy at poke range.
Offensive Viability: B- Rank
People fighting Billy for the first time will struggle in handling fwd A, but Billy's offense overall is more reliant on his strong pokes walling you in than any real pressure he keeps up. Fwd A is -2 on block, giving a potential chance to poke him back or attempt a neutral jump (character dependent) if you think he will go for it again. His hop game comes in here, as he can force you to sit back on the ground using his air-to-airs and j.CD for jumpin pressure. His special moves all leave him at disadvantage, with most of them being punishable. His slower-than-average normals will eventually leave a potential gap costing Billy this phase, and if he happens to get knocked down during the exchange things could become very bleak for him. His offense needs a good read on opponent movements to escape, and the existence of that risk is what makes it solid, but not special.
Defensive Viability: C- Rank
Where Billy can fall apart. He has no invincible reversals without meter, and the ones he has with meter are rather slow and punishable. His fastest normal for defense is his 4-frame crouch C, which can be whiff-canceled into fwd A, but if the opponent has given you that much time you are rather fortunate. The saving grace here is that, IF Billy lands his EX DP, he can get a full combo from it leading into a more favorable spot. It's 11-frame startup will normally interfere with that being a possibility, but it's something.Billy doesn't have what it takes to survive a knockdown outside of his player's wits, and this weak spot is easily his biggest one.
One Chance: C- Rank
Billy's solid HD damage can make him a threat in these situations, but he isn't the best at finding his crucial openings. Granted he can use his poke game to irritate the opponent out of getting those hits themselves, but then Billy is granting them more chances to get back at him.
Team Flexibility: B Rank
Point: Lowers his damage output, but his poke game remains mostly unaffacted. Not having EX DP as a combo-starting anti air may be an issue, and if he runs into a tough matchup here he won't have as many answers to deal with it.
Second: With that bit of EX and drive meter, Billy gains more meaningful combo potential off any successful baits, including potentially high damage if he lands a hit near the corner.
Anchor: Likely the last choice you will want. Billy's defensive frailties will be most easily exposed here, and his opponent having a touch-of-death threat will not go over well.
Current Assessment: B- Rank
Billy's most consistent hits don't fall in line with what a character needs to win in a high-damage, offense-oriented game like KOF XIII. That being said, his application of his offense is strong enough to be a credible threat, and he can be a surprise package for those who can't handle his strengths. He would probably hop up if he had more viable defensive options.
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Next up, the second mid-boss and troll's favorite, Ash Crimson!
Reward Assessment: C- Rank
Ash is capable of solid damage and very long corner carries, though not always in conjunction with each other. His combos will typically allow him to set up his zone with a Ventose or (preferably) a Genie trap or, even better, both. Germinal is a unique combo finisher as it seals the opponent's meter temporarily, which no other character can do. So why do these rewards not rank him higher here? Simply put, Ash's typical combos build FAR too much meter for the opponent, and his damage is not strong enough to compensate for that factor. Although opponents gaining a lot of meter during combos is a game-wide mechanic, Ash suffers from it the most by far, and it can come back to haunt him for every round/match he doesn't finish after landing a hit. Germinal can temper this risk, but only for so long.
Neutral Viability: A+ Rank
Ash has a very good set of projectiles to help out his neutral. A Ventose is a more typical choice, C Ventose can stuff one projectile and fire the next while being a fakeout for those expecting A Ventose, and Genie adds a trap that only interacts with the opponent's hitbox, which Ash can use to protect his own area or to limit the opponent's movement. EX Ventose is one of the fastest EX projectiles as well, augmenting his zoning game. His main anti air, D Nivose, is reliable when timed correctly, and he can typically charge it during a Ventose recovery. With two meters, he gains Sans Culotte as an anti air, which gives him a two-meter corner carry from an anti-air and potentially a sealed meter if Germinal is used. However, things can get trickier for Ash when he has to play at poke range. His normals don't have the best range and speed, sans maybe his sweep and low-invulnerable back B. The rest of his options don't stand out, and this is the range that doesn't let Ash's neutral go into the elite ranks.
Offensive Viability: C Rank
Midscreen, Ash doesn't maintain the best offense outside of typical crouch B,A strings and attempting back B hit confirms. His A Ventose, crouch A, and back D offer him frame advantage, but they won't keep him in too much as far as staying in offensive pressure range. Back B as a confirm can be risky as it is not a blockstring from crouch B, opening it up to reversals. It is fine from close C though. Back B's followups can be a bit finicky midscreen, so Ash needs to watch his distance before committing to one. For jumpins, Ash has jump A, D, and CD to help him attack and they serve their purpose, but it's what happens on the ground that limits him. In the corner, he gains better offense behind correctly set Genies, temporarily adding better possible pressure. Having Sans Culotte at the ready powers up Ash's offense as a deterrent to escape attempts. Still, the gaps in Ash's offense leave him liable to a momentum-shift, and his risk/reward in these situations does not help.
Defensive Viability: A- rank
Ash has a decent amount of defensive options for keeping the skies clear. His B Nivose is 3 frames, as is Sans Culotte, helping keep his opponent cautious of safe-jumping him. Being able to delay his Nivose, as well as Sans Culotte again, help defend him against crossup attempts. Those threats can help keep offense against Ash a little more predictable, but his tools for ground-based defense don't hold up as well. Stand A is a servicable anti-hop and crouch C covers higher angles but not too reliably due to its speed. He doesn't have the best buttons to stick out, and otherwise has to try to land a Nivose or Sans Culotte as his most reliable options if he spots a jump. Those options are solid enough that they help keep Ash alive should he be knocked down/ forced under pressure, with Sans Culotte again offering a good advantageous situation after the combo. Better defensive pokes and incurring less risk/reward are the primary issues here.
One Chance: C Rank
Ash's damage is capable of killing but only with huge resource expenditure (typically), leaving it up to his neutral to seal it. While his neutral is strong, that issue with his meter building for the opponent comes back into play here, as Ash will typically be defending himself from death after he does a combo. For most situations where he needs to close out by playing neutral, other characters can simply finish the opponent.
Team Flexibility: B Rank
Point: Keeps his zoning at its safest and his payoffs at their absolute worst. Depending on the matchup it can be a good choice.
Second: Ideal position in my opinion. Gets the meter he needs to maximize his threat and tools, and if he messes up, at least all the meter he built for the opponent will (hopefully) go into killing him.
Anchor: Viable choice for his damage and (depending on the matchup) ability to wall out the opponent should he not kill, playing on their anxiousness to land a hit. Still risky due to the much discussed risk/reward factor.
Current Assessment: D+ Rank
This may feel like a very harsh rank looking at all the other aspects rated here, but Ash's risk/reward, particularly when it comes to damage dealt vs. meter built for the opponent, is a factor that underlines a lot of his matches, and one he doesn't naturally minimize with his preferred tools. He is still a capable threat, but this is a comparative rank at the end of the day.
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Next up, the second mid-boss and troll's favorite, Ash Crimson!
Second: Ideal position in my opinion. Gets the meter he needs to maximize his threat and tools, and if he messes up, at least all the meter he built for the opponent will (hopefully) go into killing him.
Gave me a solid chuckle.
I was going to disagree with you on Billy's defense, but then I realized when I'm pressuring the Billy players I play against the only thing that gets them out of trouble (aside from my execution errors) is his EX DP. That 45 degree gap he has is my usual way in on him too.
Keep'em coming! It's certainly great getting an overview of how these characters are generally played, and sometimes you point out weaknesses which might help some of us with our problem matches.
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Next up, the second mid-boss and troll's favorite, Ash Crimson!
Second: Ideal position in my opinion. Gets the meter he needs to maximize his threat and tools, and if he messes up, at least all the meter he built for the opponent will (hopefully) go into killing him.
Gave me a solid chuckle.
I was going to disagree with you on Billy's defense, but then I realized when I'm pressuring the Billy players I play against the only thing that gets them out of trouble (aside from my execution errors) is his EX DP. That 45 degree gap he has is my usual way in on him too.
Keep'em coming! It's certainly great getting an overview of how these characters are generally played, and sometimes you point out weaknesses which might help some of us with our problem matches.
Glad to be of help, and also shoutouts to having my favorite KOF lady as your avatar! :D
Time to finish off the mid-bosses with Saiki!
Reward Assessment: S- Rank
To get the negatives out of the way, Saiki's meterless damage, particularly off lows and especially midscreen, is subpar. That being said, Saiki's rewards for hitting are one of the scariest aspects of this character. Midscreen jumpins land him good corner carry, and his corner damage for relatively little resource usage is very good, especially when optimized with accurate and frequent air back B juggles. This is before we get into his terrifying corner HDs, which stand among the highest damaging overall in the game, and are Saiki's biggest threat, even being capable of 2-meter kills given the right starter. Admittedly his midscreen HDs won't do as much damage, but he can typically carry into the corner to make that up a bit. With just a bit of tweaking Saiki could have been the game's biggest damage threat.
Neutral Viability: S- Rank
How does Saiki score higher here than Ash despite having fewer projectile options? It's kinda simple: His options beyond the projectile tend to be superior. His DP reaches farther, his QCFx2+K super is an incredible anti air that reverses corner positioning and grants a hard knockdown, his crouch C is faster so it can anti air earlier, and on the ground he gains standing D, which is an a very powerful poke and is neutral on block to boot. Saiki also has his C projectile, which cannot be reacted to when looking for the A version and will anti air errant jumps as well. This grants him a longer anti air range overall to serve his zoning game behind his large A fireball. Add his air command normals into the mix as well, as they can alter his jump arc to help him approach and/or bait anti airs from the opponent. For when it may be needed for it, his Neomax is a screen nuke that can punish errant actions and/or chip the opponent to death. What prevents him from S ranking are two things. First, when a character with stronger pokes gets into their range, Saiki can struggle to keep up even with how good standing D is. Second, against other zoners, Saiki doesn't have a full-screen EX projectile to contend with theirs. Still a very strong neutral presence, and winning neutral grants him chances to try and score hits for his strong damage.
Offensive Viability: B- Rank
This may seem odd when looking at his possible rewards, but here we are examining how well Saiki maintains an offense and scores hits, not what happens after he hits. While Saiki can get some nice frame situations between his crouch A (+3 on block) and stand D, his hitconfirm game is rather weak, usually limited to two crouch Bs or one close heavy at most. Linking off crouch A doesn't help his case as it has to be done rather close. He has some nice jump normals for approaching (A, D, CD), with the former two being solid crossups that he doesn't get to set up very often. His throw is a soft knockdown that only gets him back to neutral (except in the corner). His C fireball is a bit of a wild card here, as it can prevent opponents from jumping out and (depending on screen positioning) land Saiki a combo. Stand can also deter any lows. Deterrence is Saiki's MO on offense, but he will have to work for his hits, and that is probably his biggest shortcoming.
Defensive Viability: B Rank
Another potentially odd ranking here, but let's examine Saiki's options. Reversal-wise, his fastest are his two command grab DMs (both 1 frame), and his anti air super (4 frames). All those options will lose to a 4-frame safe jump. For punishing, his AA super does the job thanks to its range, but the command grabs have rather mediocre reach, especially the level 1 version. His DPs are a bit on the slow side (6-frame B version, 11-frame D version) and only the D version has invincibility. They will do their job when anti airing hops/jumps on defense, but as reversals only the D version is functional and it is slow. His DPs also carry a lot of forward momentum, which can make them miss at certain spacing. On a more positive note, landing his AA super or a D DP will help Saiki reverse positioning and momentum, alleviating the pressure. His close C and crouch C can snipe hops if he sees them in time as well. He has some solid options, but each comes with its shortcomings.
One Chance: A+ Rank
Simply put: The damage. Despite Saiki not being the best at landing his big hits, his damage threat factor is huge and will always keep him in any round he is a part of. His strong neutral can help close out rounds on the off-chance he doesn't kill outright.
Team Flexibility: A Rank
Point: Decent choice for his zoning capabilities, but he is a much more ordinary character here and he loses his best anti air options and, more importantly, his damage. Can be good depending on the matchup.
Second: The ideal choice. Here he will typically have the resources he lacks on point. His damage will more frequently come into play here.
Anchor: Also capable here, but if you have an anchor that wants this spot more second is enough for Saiki to do his work. It's not that he isn't capable here, but that he doesn't gain anything from it that other characters can't make more use of.
Current Assessment: A rank
Saiki is an extremely dangerous threat, but one that is not always capable of realizing said threat. His lack of good confirms, tight offense, and more dependable defense hurt his cause, but his strong neutral and excellent damage make him an ever-present danger capable of turning matches around very quickly.
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With Ryo already done earlier, time for our resident rich boy, Robert Garcia!
Reward Assessment: B Rank
Robert is as average as it gets here. His damage is very middle-of-the-road, excluding his meterless damage being potentially high off specific starters. His drive cancel and HD damage do their jobs. As far as useful knockdowns go, Robert has a few to work with, including his command grab, normal throw, and EX super. Most of his other knockdowns (midscreen) reset him to neutral. His jump arc can dilute the ambiguity of his jump-based setups due to its lack of speed and abundant height. He still gets enough to work with from hits to keep him a decent threat, assuming he lands a combo. His EX command grab won't net him much damage without a lot of resource-spending, and his normal command grab will net him just the knockdown with no options beyond it at any point.
Neutral Viability: B+ Rank
Robert's neutral is solid ground for him to work from, but each aspect of it comes with its own shortcomings. His faster pokes (stand C and D) are a bit lacking in range, whereas his others somewhat lack speed. His fireball does its job for a typical KOF zoning game but has slightly longer recovery and a smaller hitbox than the better zoners. His C DP has enough speed and hitbox to anti air effectively but needs to hit deep to do so, and his anti air normals don't cover that farther anti air zone quickly enough to compensate, with the exception of EX Ranbu, but that is a 2-meter option. Stand CD may be his one standout option here in terms of its general properties. His sweep is solid as well and forms a good one-two whiff cancel set with stand CD. His mobility is nice with high run speed and command normal to extend his backdashes, but his jump arc is a bit high and slow. Even the command backdash has the drawback of not being usable near the side of the screen without forcing a wall jump. He can alter his jump arc (or backdashes or walljumps) with his normally negative to unsafe dive kick. Running theme with this character: Each good tool tends to have a drawback or blind spot that affects it. His neutral has the most complete set of options though, and will tend to be what keeps him in fights more often than any other.
Offensive Viability: C+ Rank
Robert has usable hitconfirms from both mids and lows. His forward B is a good string ender thanks to its pushback and only being -4, normally forcing a metered punish if he doesn't commit, and it is also a low. He can continue the chain to forward A, but that is less safe. The issue is that, aside from solid confirms, Robert doesn't have much of a way to pressure the opponent. His hop arc is unusually high and can stunt his pressure, and the angles on his jumpins don't particularly cover that. His jump CD is great for preventing escapes, but it is hopeless against crouching opponents, with the small exception of the the biggest characters (Maxima, Raiden, Daimon). His hop arc also makes it harder to use his command crossup effectively. Speaking of, the rather specific hitbox on that thing can make it whiff on crouching opponents at certain distances, so Robert needs to use it with care. His command grab is viable but slow, and only the EX version will net any big reward to make the opponent think twice about blocking low while watching for hops. His special moves can't help his blockstrings much, seeing fireball is the only safe one he has and that is vulnerable to GC roll. Continuing the theme here with Robert, each useful tool he has is held back by either the lack of solid backup for it or the tool itself having a drawback. His offensive hitconfirms are his best asset here, and they are good enough to net him the rank that he gets.
Defensive Viability: B- Rank
Yet again middle-of-the-road here. Robert's invincible meterless reversal (C DP) is 6 frames which is actually quite good, and with drive and a meter or two he can convert some damage from it. EX DP is 4 frames which should make it useful for stopping slightly missed safe jumps, but its hitbox moves in an awkward forward then upwards motion, making it suspect at doing what it should. EX Ranbu can come in against loose blockstrings (particularly with projectiles). Under block pressure, Robert has passable anti-hop buttons (standing A, B, D, crouch C) if he can spot his chance. They each will cover certain angles and speeds that the others won't. He does not do well in defending high above his head and against crossups if he doesn't see them in time to DP their way. He does fair better in defense than he does on offense.
One Chance: C+ Rank
Robert's average damage and general difficulty landing significant combo starters typically get in the way of him getting his chances to make comebacks. His setup off a non-kill combo typically won't land him in the best situation (especially without meter) to end a round, but with his solid neutral he can manage depending on what he is up against.
Team Flexibility: B- Rank
Point: Solid meterless damage and neutral make this a solid case for Robert, where other character will probably benefit more from having the meter he can build in the later spots
Second: Still a viable choice depending on your team makeup. His damage isn't bad after all, so given the chance he may run the lead you need or even finish the match.
Anchor: Least viable option in my opinion due to the troublesome characters he would have to end a match against, many of whom will have better ways to land the significant hits needed, and you won't have a backup plan if he bites it here.
Current Assessment: C Rank
Popularly discussed at one point as one of the game's worst characters, I don't think Robert is THAT bad. He has his selling points, but generally any reason you choose to add Robert to your team will usually be better represented to a significant degree by other choices. Capable, but outclassed.
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We're back, and it's time for our favorite sensei, Takuma Sakazaki!
EDIT: Some modifications were made based on feedback from Dylan Bryson on Facebook. Shoutouts to him!
Reward Assessment: S Rank
The crowning jewel of Takuma's overall game, as long as he has some meter to use, his damage dwarfs that of a large chunk of the cast. The only exception is his meterless damage from lows. Every other opening he gets can net him some very favorable rewards, even from some of his simpler combos. Highly damaging HDs? A potential stun combo? Singe drive cancel combos that can still deal very high damage? Corner carry, especially with HD? Hard knockdowns with a 1-meter ender or a reset opportunity? An anywhere juggle for 1 meter if you need it? Takuma has all you need in terms of rewards, and it is the core of what makes him an extremely terrifying threat.
Neutral Viability: A- Rank
Takuma's neutral is quite solid. His long-range projectile (QCF+P) helps him control farther space, whereas his guard-point-laden close-range version (QCF+K) offers a potential counter-poke or counter-zone at that range. His jump CD is among the best in the business, possessing a very good all-purpose hitbox that only suffers from timing commitment (whiffs on crouching when done too early). It can lead into combos near the corner, even without a counter hit, thanks to EX Zanretsuken's anywhere juggle property. It's when he's forced to stay grounded that Takuma can struggle, especially mid-close range. His pokes either lack range or speed, apart from his sweep with comes with the usual risk of losing to hops. His far C is not amazing, but its ability to cancel into forward B affords Takuma the threat of a potential counterpoke into a full combo. He also can choose to spend meter on the (almost) safe EX Hien Shippu Kyaku to approach/surprise the opponent at mid-range, and that can net him another valuable combo opportunity. His best anti air is his C Ryoku Ranbu, which requires a meter. His grounded anti airs are lacklustre, with jumping back into a CD potentially being superior in a lot of ways, but that comes with its own risks. A strange trump card is the large hitbox of his Zanretsuken, which can surprise opponents taking the air for granted against him. That mid-close range is Takuma's definitive weakness in neutral and brings down what is otherwise a very solid tool kit.
Offensive Viability: B+ Rank
Takuma's blockstrings aren't the tightest nor does he gain the biggest frame advantage. However, he does have a solid hit confirm in his close C, forward B series, and his 3-frame crouching A can help keep opponents honest, particularly when he has HD available. His very low and fast hops, combined with the beefy (and crossup-capable) jump D, the useful jump B, and the all-purpose jump CD can make Takuma scary to defend against. Even if he gets pushed out to poke range after a fireball blockstring, he can potentially poke with Zanretsuken and its surprisingly large hitbox, and drive cancel if it hits, which while a bit risky in itself can be worth the reward.His command grab may be very slow (8 frames), but its existence as a combo starting threat can make everything else he has become scarier, and the EX version's invincibility can help counter opponents trying to attack on defense. While Takuma can run a scary offense once he's in, his offense isn't very tight, and he can struggle to find his hits especially when he's chasing the match. His rewards make up for it, but that is why that is a separate category.
Defensive Viability: C+ Rank
Ouch. Takuma's defensive capabilities are definitely very suspect. His EX command grab and C ranbu are his go-to invincible moves, and both come with their own risks. Ranbu is slow, and EX command grab is still a command grab at the end of the day, and both will lose to safe jumps. Although it may seem that one option can succeed where the other fails, certain safe jump setups are even tailor-made to get past both, leaving him very vulnerable. His fastest buttons (crouch A, close C, crouch B) don't have stellar defensive hitboxes to work with against pressure, and his lacking grounded anti airs can make strong hop offense even more problematic. The saving grace here is this: If Takuma manages to land certain options here (Super or grab especially), he gains a momentum shift that, especially in the case of EX grab, can take him to victory. The natural risk and the weakness of his meterless defense are the primary issues Takuma faces here, and potentially the biggest reasons his DLC-based alter ego gets to see a lot more action than he does.
One Chance: S Rank
Takuma's got the damage and the ability to land it, and IF the opponent survives a hit from him, they are usually incredibly weakened to the point that he can close it out. Definitely one of the most dangerous characters to face when he has the resources.
Team Flexibility: B+ Rank
Point: Inadvisable. Resources make a big difference to Takuma and he has to work hard here just to generate them. He is still capable here, but odds are you have a battery for him here instead.
Second: The ideal spot. Takuma can minimize his resource spending and still get possibly huge damage, while still building enough extra resources to keep going in the clutch. Gains the most from being here, and one of the strongest candidates for this position solely for his burst damage.
Anchor: Still highly capable here, but the difference from second is minimal. This is a position other characters stand to gain more from, and his weaknesses can be more problematically exposed here.
Current Assessment: A Rank
Takuma is very much a damage machine, and he can land that damage consistently enough to be a threat anytime he is on the field. His defense is a problem, however, and can cost him his life very quickly. He also somewhat lacks good options for chasing opponents down which can hurt him if he falls behind. Honestly, Mr. Karate and Takuma being mutually exclusive holds Takuma down, but Takuma is still quite strong and capable.
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Now on to our sulking DLC victim, the claw version of Iori Yagami!
Reward Assessment: A+ Rank
Just to throw this out there, Iori is JUST shy of hitting the S ranks here. Without meter, his midscreen combos knock the opponent out of his favored offensive positions unless he sacrifices a bit of damage. With meter, he can get a hard knockdown and good damage from almost any combo thanks to his super juggle from QCB+C (although the level 1 super can miss at certain distances). The corner is a different story thanks to the added option of EX QCB+P, granting him both good damage and solid meter regain during it. His HDs are the star of this category, particularly with the corner, as his damage ranks well among the stronger characters from almost all starters. The Neomax giving him a hard knockdown afterwards is a good bonus. Overall, Iori has very good rewards for hitting, particularly with HD available, but if he is low on resources he can struggle to get the most out of his chances.
Neutral Viability: B Rank
A very matchup-dependent category. Iori's normals are as good as ever, with stand B and D providing a poke wall on the ground that is supplemented by his jump B and D for air wars. Stand CD has a Terry-style retreating-then-advancing hitbox, but it isn't quite as effective as a counterpoke. Sweep is fast but comes with notoriously horrendous recovery. For anti airs, his close C, crouch C, DP +A (or EX) when timed well, and even his standing kicks can keep his space clear. His movement speed is very fast, with a very fast run, extendable backdash (with back+B), and fast-moving jumps at all arcs. It's against characters with similarly strong poking games,good projectiles, and/or good anti-hop kits that Iori can struggle to find his space. He can struggle against strong zoning since he has to spend meter to attack through projectiles (EX QCB+K or EX Super). While his buttons and strong mobility make him capable at neutral, he is primarily looking to go on the offensive if possible to maximize his rewards from successful hits.
Offensive Viability: S- Rank
Iori's close game has always been strong, and that has not changed in this game. With his (safe) 3-frame close C, he has a strong close button that doubles as a deterrent to jumping away from him. Add his great run speed, very fast air speed with great aerials for all purposes, and solid hit confirm game (forward A being the main tool from both crouch B,A and close C) and you have a strong offensive threat. In blockstrings (depending on the matchup) QCB+C leaves him close-range at -2, which can be OK for him to keep going after with a close C. Just don't use it on grapplers. Just for good measure, he has a slow but throw-invincible command grab from which he can get combos, and can even HD combo from is his back is to the corner. His command crossup augments his mixup by being possible from a hop when the opponent expects a low, and just by being an ever-present threat from his air game. He also has an overhead that he can super cancel or HD from. It's a very potent offensive set that makes Iori the threat he is. However, again characters with good anti-hop tools can limit his offense a bit, because his low altitude makes him easier to wall out by characters who can control that space well. Still, a potent threat that is difficult to stop.
Defensive Viability: B Rank
A distinct weakness of Iori without meter is his complete lack of good wakeup options, as his only possible invincibility is against throws with his command grab, and against lows with QCB+C. With a meter he gets EX command grab (5 frames and leads to a combo) and EX DP (4 frames, but hits better in front of him than above him making it dangerous depending on the angle). His pokes can come in handy with their large hitboxes when he has to deal with pressure, and his close C can get him out of trouble if the opponent doesn't respect it (or tries to jump over expecting EX DP or command grab). Be careful with close C, however, as it CAN be baited. EX super is another 4-frame option that adds range to help with long-range punishes. EX QCB+P carries over the low invincibility of the C version, which can be used if you expect a low in your opponent's offense. Looking at it, Iori does have some viable defensive options, but each tends to cover specific options and he doesn't have overall strong enough options here, especially since he only becomes intimidating on defense if he has meter to access his best reversals/ be able to do damage and reverse momentum. Even with meter, there are enough ways around his defensive options that make him more vulnerable here.
One Chance: A+ Rank
Iori's damage and hard knockdown/mixup potential make him a very scary character in big meter situations. However, depending on the matchup, he may struggle to find the chance he needs to make that happen.
Team Flexibility: A Rank
Point: Weakest position overall, but can work against characters that he can bully with his pokes/offense once he's in his range.
Second: One of the two choices he should go for. He'll get his super juggles available here and, in case he runs into a tough matchup, will have more possible reward to handle it and more options as well.
Anchor: The position where he once made himself highly popular, and with good reason. He maintains momentum well with his strong offense, enabling his comeback potential should he be tasked with making one.
Current Assessment: A+ Rank
Claw Iori is always capable of finding chances for his offense and damage to take over. He is solid enough in neutral and defense to always keep his chances alive, though he does not excel in either. With stronger meterless damage and/or options for defense or neutral he could have been among the absolute best, which he isn't far off from as is.
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Loving these; so in-depth =D
Only curiosity is the other character's descriptions. Then again, these are nearly a year old.