Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => General Discussion => Topic started by: davidkong07 on January 11, 2012, 03:11:21 AM
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Hello all! So, for some time now a few players have known about grab invincibility which occurs after block stun. For those of you who are unfamiliar, here is an explanation:
Whenever you block an attack, you are put into frames of "block stun". Obviously, you cannot be grabbed during block stun. The odd thing is, in KoFXIII, characters have a few frames of grab invincibility, even after block stun frames have finished. That's right, you have a few frames of grab invincibility, even once your character has recovered from block stun and is in a NEUTRAL STATE. In KoFXIII, the annoying part is that this grab invincibility lasts for DIFFERENT PERIODS OF TIME amongst different characters.
I decided to conduct some testing with Vice's string, D -> Fwd. A -> A version Splash, which is an air to ground grab. I came up with some interesting results. The splash whiffs on about half of the cast, but connects on the other half. This means that the group that avoided the splash have relatively longer block stun induced grab invincibility than the group that got grabbed. Through this testing, I was able to separate the cast into two groups: Group A, which didn't get grabbed, and Group B, which got grabbed. These were the results:
Group A (longer grab invincibility):
Kyo, EX Kyo, Terry, Billy, Ash, Saiki, Claw Iori, Flame Iori, Elisabeth, Duo Lon, Hwa Jai, Mai, K', Kula, Maxima, Kensou
Group B (shorter grab invincibility):
Daimon, Andy, Benimaru, Joe, Ryo, Robert, Takuma, Mr. Karate, Mature, Vice, Shen, Kim, Raiden, King, Yuri, Ralf, Clark, Leona
The special cases in this testing were Chin and Athena. Chin and Athena were able to be grabbed with Vice's string mid-screen, but never got grabbed in the corner. I have no clue why this happened, or what implications being in the corner have for block stun induced grab invincibility.
Because of the nature of my testing, I cannot conclusively say any frame counts regarding the two groups. The different number of frames of invincibility between them might be large or small, and there probably are even frame differences within the groups themselves. What I can say conclusively is:
EVERY CHARACTER IN GROUP "A" HAS LONGER BLOCK STUN INDUCED GRAB INVINCIBILITY THAN EVERY CHARACTER IN GROUP "B", AT LEAST BY 1 FRAME.
Now, the implications here may be somewhat significant or not, depending on your perspective. What this means is that your tick throw or tick command throw setups which work against characters in group B may not work against characters in Group A, especially if they are very frame precise. In a nutsell, the characters in Group A may be harder to tick throw than the characters in Group B. As for Chin and Athena, I dunno!!!
Anyways, I hope this information is somewhat helpful! Peace!
UPDATE: Here is some additional info about throw invincibility from arcadia magazine, translated by laziefreddy:
- Jump weak attacks (group A, column 1 and 2), Stand Weak attacks (group B, column 3 and 4), strong attacks (column 5 and 6) induce different lengths of throw invincibility
- Exceptions to the above rule are Mature, Raiden, Ryo, Yuri, Maxima's standing weak attacks, which below to group A
- The window of throw invincibility could be shortened if you press a button (column 1, 3, 5 details the minimum length)
- Throw invincible frames during wake up= 11
- Throw invincible frames after air reset = 6
- Throw invincible frames during quick rise = 0
- Normal throws have 1 frame start up
- You cannot do a reversal normal throw on wake up, but it is possible during a quick rise
- The game has a 4 frame window for "simultaneous inputs." e.g. if you press C, then input forward within the next 4 frames, a throw is registered. However, some arcade cabinets may have set this to 2 frames instead.
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Played a Yuri last night and at one point she ran in cr B, then ran in and Grab (not EX) I thought the Blockstun would prevent being grabbed? Because trying to tick throw off of lights is pretty much impossible unless you wait over a second and try to grab.
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light attacks induce less blockstun than heavy attacks, so it would actually be easier to tick throw off of them. also, the point of this is to say that it doesn't matter who is on the offense, the tick throw timing depends on the character on the defense.
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Good find and will be particularly helpful for characters with a command grab. I noticed Benimaru wasn't on the list. Was that just a miss or is he a special case.
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oh wow, my bad! thanks for pointing that out! Benimaru is in group B
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A bunch of us in socal knew this since october/november of 2010. It was written in an arcadia magazine released during that time. It's in japanese, but here's it is for your viewing pleasure. Please note that specifically Kyo and Athena have the longest overall throw invincibility.
http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg)
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^^^^ crazy moon speak! I think we'll just have to trust you on this one.
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Hmmm...I'll take that, thank you! This could be useful in figuring out tick throw set-ups.
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A bunch of us in socal knew this since october/november of 2010. It was written in an arcadia magazine released during that time. It's in japanese, but here's it is for your viewing pleasure. Please note that specifically Kyo and Athena have the longest overall throw invincibility.
http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg)
I assume it is the last column? What do the the others say?
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A bunch of us in socal knew this since october/november of 2010. It was written in an arcadia magazine released during that time. It's in japanese, but here's it is for your viewing pleasure. Please note that specifically Kyo and Athena have the longest overall throw invincibility.
http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg)
hey duc,
so upon reading this i decided to test athena further. it turns out that, like, chin, she is also able to be grabbed by vice's string midscreen but not in the corner. do you have any idea what this could mean about being in the corner and grab invincibility? i'm pretty stumped.
the OP has been edited to reflect this.
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A bunch of us in socal knew this since october/november of 2010. It was written in an arcadia magazine released during that time. It's in japanese, but here's it is for your viewing pleasure. Please note that specifically Kyo and Athena have the longest overall throw invincibility.
http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg)
Thanks for the article. It's actually got a few other interesting things about throws mentioned in it. I'll see if I could have it translated when I have time.
Update: Here's some key notes from the article
- Jump weak attacks (group A, column 1 and 2), Stand Weak attacks (group B, column 3 and 4), strong attacks (column 5 and 6) induce different lengths of throw invincibility
- Exceptions to the above rule are Mature, Raiden, Ryo, Yuri, Maxima's standing weak attacks, which below to group A
- The window of throw invincibility could be shortened if you press a button (column 1, 3, 5 details the minimum length)
- Throw invincible frames during wake up= 11
- Throw invincible frames after air reset = 6
- Throw invincible frames during quick rise = 0
- Normal throws have 1 frame start up
- You cannot do a reversal normal throw on wake up, but it is possible during a quick rise
- The game has a 4 frame window for "simultaneous inputs." e.g. if you press C, then input forward within the next 4 frames, a throw is registered. However, some arcade cabinets may have set this to 2 frames instead.
My Japanese is kinda rusty, so I cannot guarantee 100% accuracy. I also wonder if the data presented there have changed in the console version, especially since jump attacks have shorter hit stun now.
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That's actually very useful information! Thank you very much!
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yo laziefreddy, that's awesome! thank you for the translation, i'll update the OP with that info
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I'm confused about the part where normal throws have a 1 frame start up because that should mean more moves would be punishable on block. For example, Kyo's upkicks (QCF+K) is only punishable by a 1 frame command grab. Wouldn't normal throws being 1f mean that you could throw Kyo after upkicks?
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I'm confused about the part where normal throws have a 1 frame start up because that should mean more moves would be punishable on block. For example, Kyo's upkicks (QCF+K) is only punishable by a 1 frame command grab. Wouldn't normal throws being 1f mean that you could throw Kyo after upkicks?
The B version might cause more blockstun than recovery which is what might make it difficult for you to do so. There's also the matter of delay in the input. I believe when it means it has 1 frame start-up that it's actually 2. 1 frame for the animation of a st.C or st.D to come out and the 2nd frame is when it's active. If you slow down the animation frame by frame, you see that the character tries to do a st.C before attempting to throw.
Either way it goes, qcb+B is the one that's relatively safe on block. QCB+D is -3 and can be punished with a throw pretty easy without reversal.
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i don't believe you can ever truly "punish" with a normal throw, since in this game you can always tech normal throws even if you are grabbed during the recovery of a move.
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i don't believe you can ever truly "punish" with a normal throw, since in this game you can always tech normal throws even if you are grabbed during the recovery of a move.
Yes, this is true but technically I should be able to always force a grab on Kyo with his QCF+K move if normal throws are 1f.
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http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MWLG0LG6 (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MWLG0LG6)
This is a link to the first portion of the article about throwing. I'd like to thank my buddy, Anues, for doing a full translation so it's easy to understand. Mind you, English isn't his first language so it might not be 100% grammar. However, he did his best and I understand it. So can you. Confirms everything that was posted except that if you keep blocking, your frames of invulnerability are longer. So it gets shorter if you try to move right after you block.
Also note, this is part one of it. Hopefully Anues will help me with doing translations of the Master Class videos too!
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Impressive Reiki thanks a lot! about the master class, yes there is a question bothering me... at the begin the table they shown what is it? a complete frame data? a translation would be awesome of the used common term.
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I actually don't know. Once Anues and I talk again, I'll ask him. It would be nice to use some of the information that Dune and other players from around the world are talking about.
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i don't believe you can ever truly "punish" with a normal throw, since in this game you can always tech normal throws even if you are grabbed during the recovery of a move.
Yes, this is true but technically I should be able to always force a grab on Kyo with his QCF+K move if normal throws are 1f.
Yes it's common in Socal to use normal throws to punish like against Kyo's qcf+D, but as someone said before, it's still techable.
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[1]
***About the invicible time against throwing***
This title,invicible time against throwing exists right after recovery or block.
So when you break their guard with throwing,you need to be know about it.
When an opponent stays in block motion after freezing time after blocking your attack,invicible time expands.
So I wrote two type of inviciblity times.
[mini]...Minimum invicible time that opponent can be invicible against throwing while moving right after block.
[maximum]...maximum invicible time while opponents keep block motion after blocking your attack.
[group A]...invicible time after blocked jumping low attack.but in case of Mature,Raiden,Ryou,Yuri,Maxima,their ground low attack is same as them.
[group B]...invicible time after blocked ground low attack.
and,a few time thought,you can expand invicible time with switching standing block and crouching block.
| Status | invicible time |
Getting up after down - 11F
recovering from getting attacked in air - 6F
Ukemi(passive motion?) - 0F
| |Low Attack| |Hi Atk |
| |Group A|Group B| |
| character |min|max|min|max|min|max|
-------------------------------------
| Ash |5 |12 |9 |12 |7 |12 |
| | | | | | | |
| Elisabeth |5 |8 |9 |9 |7 |8 |
| Duo Lon |9 |9 |9 |9 |9 |9 |
| Shen |5 |11 |9 |11 |7 |11 |
| | | | | | | |
| Kyo |5 |16 |9 |16 |7 |16 |
| Benimaru |5 |12 |9 |12 |7 |12 |
| Daimon |5 |12 |9 |12 |7 |12 |
| | | | | | | |
| Iori |5 |15 |9 |15 |7 |15 |
| Mature |5 |8 |9 |9 |7 |7 |
| Vice |5 |7 |9 |9 |7 |8 |
| | | | | | | |
| Terry |5 |12 |9 |12 |7 |12 |
| Andy |5 |12 |9 |12 |7 |12 |
| Joe |5 |12 |9 |12 |7 |12 |
| | | | | | | |
| Kim |5 |10 |9 |10 |7 |10 |
| Hwa |5 |13 |9 |13 |7 |13 |
| Raiden |5 |10 |9 |10 |7 |10 |
| | | | | | | |
| Athena |5 |16 |9 |16 |7 |16 |
| Kensou |5 |13 |9 |13 |7 |13 |
| Chin |5 |13 |9 |13 |7 |13 |
| | | | | | | |
| Ryou |5 |10 |9 |10 |7 |10 |
| Robert |5 |9 |9 |9 |7 |9 |
| Takuma |5 |11 |9 |11 |7 |10 |
| | | | | | | |
| Ralf |5 |9 |9 |9 |7 |9 |
| Clerk |5 |9 |9 |9 |7 |9 |
| Leona |5 |13 |9 |13 |7 |13 |
| | | | | | | |
| Mai |5 |12 |9 |12 |7 |12 |
| Yuri |5 |5 |9 |9 |7 |7 |
| King |5 |9 |9 |9 |7 |9 |
| | | | | | | |
| K' |5 |12 |9 |12 |7 |12 |
| Kula |5 |9 |9 |9 |7 |9 |
| Maxima |5 |9 |9 |9 |7 |9 |
So, since Megaupload is down, this is the translation of the Arcadia mook. So there are six values. Explained above are Group A, Group B for light attacks. The last two are heavy. Hope this helps!
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Does anyone know if NESTS Kyo has the same throw invincibility period as XIII Kyo ?
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i don't believe you can ever truly "punish" with a normal throw, since in this game you can always tech normal throws even if you are grabbed during the recovery of a move.
Yes, this is true but technically I should be able to always force a grab on Kyo with his QCF+K move if normal throws are 1f.
Yes it's common in Socal to use normal throws to punish like against Kyo's qcf+D, but as someone said before, it's still techable.
But it puts the Kyo in a highly defavorable mindgame.
Because if he techthrows and you do a s.C he will be hit.
If he blocks you can throw him, if he does an invincible move you can throw or block.
Btw a fast s.C or special move will punish it for sure, but time the s.C is 1 frame timing ...
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I suspect that the reason things work midscreen and not the corner is less pushblock in the corner meaning Vice connects with her grab sooner than if you were midscreen.