Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => General Discussion => Topic started by: Cronopio on October 10, 2010, 12:14:49 PM
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No wonder nobody takes the US SNK community seriously. 90% of it thinks bugs are bad just because they are bugs (thank god you guys don't work in the game industry or we wouldn't have combos) and complain about players using top tiers and infinites.
Bugs, as long as they don't break the game ARE OK. Get over it. With the EX meter glitches removed you have a less balanced game.
And, if you guys have any hope of building a serious scene, please stop complaining about bugs, top tiers, infinites, etc for the sake of honor. This isn't 1991.
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No wonder nobody takes the US SNK community seriously. 90% of it thinks bugs are bad just because they are bugs (thank god you guys don't work in the game industry or we wouldn't have combos) and complain about players using top tiers and infinites.
Bugs, as long as they don't break the game ARE OK. Get over it. With the EX meter glitches removed you have a less balanced game.
And, if you guys have any hope of building a serious scene, please stop complaining about bugs, top tiers, infinites, etc for the sake of honor. This isn't 1991.
So, what are you saying is that a well balanced game is that one which has broken god tiers chars, some with an infinite and a pair of characters who can fight like Dark Ash (buffed final boss of the game) because they can do EX moves without meter bar when the rest of the cast can't. This is most LOL post I've read here.
Anyway, glitches, free EX moves and infinites are gone with the patch. It has been an SNKP decision, so...
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No wonder nobody takes the US SNK community seriously. 90% of it thinks bugs are bad just because they are bugs (thank god you guys don't work in the game industry or we wouldn't have combos) and complain about players using top tiers and infinites.
Bugs, as long as they don't break the game ARE OK. Get over it. With the EX meter glitches removed you have a less balanced game.
And, if you guys have any hope of building a serious scene, please stop complaining about bugs, top tiers, infinites, etc for the sake of honor. This isn't 1991.
... I won't even dignify a response for this.
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No wonder nobody takes the US SNK community seriously. 90% of it thinks bugs are bad just because they are bugs (thank god you guys don't work in the game industry or we wouldn't have combos) and complain about players using top tiers and infinites.
Bugs, as long as they don't break the game ARE OK. Get over it. With the EX meter glitches removed you have a less balanced game.
And, if you guys have any hope of building a serious scene, please stop complaining about bugs, top tiers, infinites, etc for the sake of honor. This isn't 1991.
It's a lot easier to take out bugs and infinities than significantly buffing the rest of the cast just saying, I can see where you're coming from though
So, what are you saying is that a well balanced game
Balance is such a over-rated concept, I mean it's nice but it shouldn't be the absolute "be all and end all"
is that one which has broken god tiers chars
God tier characters in KOF is nothing new
some with an infinite
A lot of characters in (other) KOF games have infinities as well, most them don't get taken out either
and a pair of characters who can fight like Dark Ash (buffed final boss of the game) because they can do EX moves without meter bar when the rest of the cast can't.
It gave them (Daimon/Takuma) more options, plus the drawback was that they'll never have meter if they constantly abused them in succession so it's not like it broke the game or anything (at least not in Daimon's case)
This is most LOL post I've read here.
You can laugh but he still makes a good point
Anyway, glitches, free EX moves and infinites are gone with the patch. It has been an SNKP decision, so...
and K' and Raiden are still the same, the very characters you guys were clamoring about being broken/OP in the first place, and some character specific infinities are still in there
anyway this was a pretty entertaining discussion but I think we should make another thread for it or something
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No wonder nobody takes the US SNK community seriously. 90% of it thinks bugs are bad just because they are bugs (thank god you guys don't work in the game industry or we wouldn't have combos) and complain about players using top tiers and infinites.
Aren't you the one complaining about players using the same "6-8 characters"? Aren't you the one wanting a rebalance because of the top tier characters? Looks like you're part of said 90%. If a character is a lacking it's okay for them to have easy almost no meter death combos? Really? So if Ryo whenever he combos into C DP caused instant stun thus allowing him an easy no meter infinite vs everyone THAT'S OKAY because K' is higher on the tier list?
Bugs, as long as they don't break the game ARE OK. Get over it. With the EX meter glitches removed you have a less balanced game.
Tell me how Takuma's glitch made the game better for characters who are both worse than the top tiers and worse than Takuma. All the ex glitches did was made Goro and Takuma better characters. That didn't help the low tiers(whoever they are). Takuma w/glitch has an easier time vs top tier and makes it harder for lower tiers to win against him. If you team Takuma w/gitch w/low tiers true statistically speaking the win % would increase solely because of Takuma w/glitch. But they would still be low tier. Meaning that the player would still need the skills to be good enough with the whole team to win. They would still be lacking. And that can't be your point because you can already achieve that result with any of the high/top tier characters no glitch included.
And, if you guys have any hope of building a serious scene, please stop complaining about bugs, top tiers, infinites, etc for the sake of honor. This isn't 1991.
SNKP took out the infinites and glitches. They don't want it in XIII. Funny thing is that you're all up for infinites and bugs because they give some of the cast a better chance to win. Do you even realize that players have been defeating superior characters all this time?
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Well regardless if those bugs/glitches made the game more balanced/broken they're gone now so that's one less thing to worry about
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At this point I'm more sure that SNKP will release an upgrade kit (non free) with balances and maybe some new characters after tand hipotetical console release (the other thing could be that they release the upgrade kit and later the console game)
The could call it KOF XIII Regulation A or some stupid name for all of those revisions that are so popular now in arcade games, actually I think that SNK is the only one that never does them, I think that now will be their first time
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Maybe getting a bit off-topic, but the next generation of arcade boards are going to adopt a digital distribution model. SNK was one of the signed on to develop for them, so future KOF games will be able to be patched easily.
Which is great news for us crazy folk who dislike bugs.
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Maybe getting a bit off-topic, but the next generation of arcade boards are going to adopt a digital distribution model. SNK was one of the signed on to develop for them, so future KOF games will be able to be patched easily.
Which is great news for us crazy folk who dislike bugs.
Yeah that NESiCAxLive thing, sounds very convenient for SNKP but wasn't there something about a surcharge too?
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The actual model of Nesica x live doesn't seem to convenient and with a bright future to be honest, there should be some changes with that model if they want to suceed with it
At least I had the ilussion that with that system, one day we could have one here or in the states, but if you can't modify the price of the system (100 yens) not too many arcades will bight them, because they had to pay to the company per play, and also I think a suscription fee
Is really expensive play on those machines, even here SF IV costs only 50 yens, and even that price is expensive for us (98 um was at 50 yens too, but the price was dropped to 25)
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Balance is such a over-rated concept, I mean it's nice but it shouldn't be the absolute "be all and end all"
I simply totally disagree. But of course is just my point of view.
God tier characters in KOF is nothing new
No, isn't it. And all fighting games has and will have tier lists, but the difference between a god/top tier and a low tier can be higher or lower.
A lot of characters in (other) KOF games have infinities as well, most them don't get taken out either
This doesn't mean infinites are something good for a game. Or at least, if there have to be infinites all characters should have one.
It gave them (Daimon/Takuma) more options, plus the drawback was that they'll never have meter if they constantly abused them in succession so it's not like it broke the game or anything (at least not in Daimon's case)
Then they should give those "more options" to all the cast, not just Goro and Takuma. Or the game that you are creating is a broken game where two characters are overpowered and only characters with infinites or bugs like free EX moves can win. Then just remove the rest of the cast and make a game with 4 characters, not 31. The other 27 are just useless.
and K' and Raiden are still the same, the very characters you guys were clamoring about being broken/OP in the first place, and some character specific infinities are still in there. what are you going to do now?
First of all, I'm going to wait the console version. And I hope they include some kind of arrange mode more balanced than the arcade one, where K' and Raiden have been nerfed. But if they don't do this, then I'm just going to put all my efforts in find the keys to defeat K' and Raiden with characters I like. And if I can't because they so overpowered that is totally impossible win them without putting K' and Raiden in my team, then I'm not going to play this KOF anymore.
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K' and Raiden lose all the time. To inferior characters no less. They will be a pain to deal with if they're like that in the final release but they have been beaten repeatedly.
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and K' and Raiden are still the same, the very characters you guys were clamoring about being broken/OP in the first place, and some character specific infinities are still in there. what are you going to do now?
First of all, I'm going to wait the console version. And I hope they include some kind of arrange mode more balanced than the arcade one, where K' and Raiden have been nerfed. But if they don't do this, then I'm just going to put all my efforts in find the keys to defeat K' and Raiden with characters I like. And if I can't because they so overpowered that is totally impossible win them without putting K' and Raiden in my team, then I'm not going to play this KOF anymore.
I don´t think it will come to that.
I remember in the old ones there were a lot of ridiculously broken characters like Heidern or Billy (I´m talking about the really old ones).
I consider the latest incarnations of KOF really balanced overall. Of course, this is not MK with all the characters doing the exact same normal attacks (thank god), and KOF always had a wide variaty of characters, with really many diferent styles of attack like anti air thows, special counter throws, unblockable attacks, invencible attacks and ways to punish them (or not in same cases). It may be harder in some cases, but there is usually always a way to beat them.
After all the updates/patches are released (assuming this is not the only one), and the console version is available, we'll see what happens but I doubt it will be something sooooooo cryptic. My guess is you will get your fair share of bullshit moments, but nothing we KOF fans havent experienced before.
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*Scratches head*
How exactly is Mature juggling you for free after one EX move (a brainless infinite at that) balancing anything? Or Takuma gaining meter like that?
I don't think anyone is arguing that glitches are inherently bad or something that must always be removed. But if they don't add anything worthwhile to gameplay they should be gotten rid of. I think that's one of the big issues with some fighting games as they developed personally. People thought just because a glitch or something to circumvent the system was found, it was always "good" and "made the game deeper".
I think removing those things is a great start. I am somewhat curious why they didn't tweak stuff like raiden's kick a bit, but I think this is going in the right direction.
And BTW, 'they' don't take the US seriously not because of this stuff, they don't mainly because the US isn't that great at KOF. =/
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I agree, infinites are bullshit no matter what.
If a character is really bad, I mean reaaaaallly useless, an infinite combo is not the way to fix it.
Change/add usefull attacks to improve him, but no infinites on my book.
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I always thought that the KOF community hasn't been taken seriously in the states there's not too much people that play KOF
Also some kids who think that they were in the 90 try to bash SNK for everything thinking of the ''war'' between Capcom and SNK
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And BTW, 'they' don't take the US seriously not because of this stuff, they don't mainly because the US isn't that great at KOF. =/
One reason the US snk scene is lacking is because so many morons go on playing MvC2 and yet bash kof because of a kof video showing an infinite... like seriously? You would think they'd be complaining that the game didn't have enough infinites.
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I simply totally disagree. But of course is just my point of view.
You're entitled to your opinion then
This doesn't mean infinites are something good for a game. Or at least, if there have to be infinites all characters should have one.
Well I wasn't implying that infinite combos are a good thing or should be left in, I'm just saying that they were left in before and people continued to play the game despite that, besides what would possibly be solved if they gave an infinite to every character in the game? it wouldn't change the fact that some characters would still have a better/easier chance of landing the infinite before you
and yeah I'll agree Mature was pretty busted since her inf had 25 variants with and without drive meter
Then they should give those "more options" to all the cast, not just Goro and Takuma.
Goro and Takuma having EX's without meter was a bug yeah but it still didn't break the game or make it un-playable (not like Mature's inf), besides giving the option to all characters across the board would once again not solve anything, just because they can do it too doesn't mean they'll be able to do it better
Or the game that you are creating is a broken game where two characters are overpowered and only characters with infinites or bugs like free EX moves can win.
I gotta admit seeing you flippantly throw the word "broken" around is funny, and for the record I wasn't implying this either, your favorite character can win if you're willing to put in all the work and effort, and that's regardless if your opponent is using bugs or not
Then just remove the rest of the cast and make a game with 4 characters, not 31. The other 27 are just useless.
Why remove the other 27 characters when you can just give them infinite's, and free st. C's after GCAB to balance out the game, right?
First of all, I'm going to wait the console version. And I hope they include some kind of arrange mode more balanced than the arcade one, where K' and Raiden have been nerfed.
They don't need to be nerfed, K' only really has two problems (both of which are technical issues), and Raiden most certainly can be beaten
But if they don't do this, then I'm just going to put all my efforts in find the keys to defeat K' and Raiden with characters I like.
Now you're getting it
And if I can't because they so overpowered that is totally impossible win them without putting K' and Raiden in my team, then I'm not going to play this KOF anymore.
And you lost me again, seriously if you're just gonna quit out of frustration because you can't beat them with favorite characters you might as well quit from the jump, we don't need more people with that lame ass defeatist mentality
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And BTW, 'they' don't take the US seriously not because of this stuff, they don't mainly because the US isn't that great at KOF. =/
One reason the US snk scene is lacking is because so many morons go on playing MvC2 and yet bash kof because of a kof video showing an infinite... like seriously? You would think they'd be complaining that the game didn't have enough infinites.
Well, I've never really heard of anything like that. I've heard of various reasons KOF hasn't caught on here, but that wasn't one of them.
Not sure where that came from anyway. Because the scrubs will complain about infs in MvC2 too. The reason Marvel gets played are numerous; Made by Capcom, Marvel license, easy to pick up and play, fanboys, its been played for about a decade. Your analogy is pretty flawed.
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Not sure where that came from anyway. Because the scrubs will complain about infs in MvC2 too. The reason Marvel gets played are numerous; Made by Capcom, Marvel license, easy to pick up and play, fanboys, its been played for about a decade. Your analogy is pretty flawed.
I have no clue what you took from my argument but I was pointing out that people played MvC2 regardless of its flaws but those same people(even the ones who know how to play the game well) from what I've seen in random threads in SRK bash KOF games for their infinites and random bugs. I was saying that this mentality of being loyal to a certain game brand is what is hindering the USA snk scene.
What analogy did you think I was making because I don't see how it applies to what you just said?
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And you lost me again, seriously if you're just gonna quit out of frustration because you can't beat them with favorite characters you might as well quit from the jump, we don't need more people with that lame ass defeatist mentality
What? You gone too far. This wasn't a competition between you and me, or at least I never pretended it was. So i don't lost a shit. And play or not this game it's my decision and I don't care at all what "you" need and what not. Are you trying to start a fight or what? I never thought you could be this kind of person. I thought DreamCancel was a nice place where KOF fans/players can talk about KOF and share opinions. Disappointing.
I'm not going to talk more about this, since I think I said all what I have to say and this discussion is getting weird.
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I think it's far simpler than you think; the reason why kof isn't as popular is due to accessibility and cultural preferences. Nothing to do with how we feel about the actual gameplay. We're getting off topic now.
Let's also keep the hostility/tone down.
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About the bugs, infinites, etc etc/
I think they should at least work on it....see what can be done. If a bug or infinite is better off left where it is, then sure (but infinites--very unlikely). Too bad very few of us are willing to compromise like this, everything is absolute nowadays.
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What? You gone too far. This wasn't a competition between you and me, or at least I never pretended it was. So i don't lost a shit.
I wasn't claiming this was a competition between you and me, I'm just stating the obvious, you mentioned before that you didn't like dealing with all the BS in games like SSFIV and Soul Calibur that people used to win right?, well you're gonna see a lot of that same shit when people hop on KOF XIII
And play or not this game it's my decision
Sure it's your decision
I don't care at all what "you" need and what not.
You say you don't care huh?
Are you trying to start a fight or what?
I don't start fights over the internet
I never thought you could be this kind of person.
Well sorry if I came across as brutal, I mean I'm just sharing my opinion
I thought DreamCancel was a nice place where KOF fans/players can talk about KOF and share opinions.
Well If you were thinking about leaving this website I can point you out some other KOF related websites where KOF "fans" can talk about KOF and share their opinions, sadly I'm not sure if they actually play the game or not but I don't think that would conflict with your decision of joining them so whatever
I'm not going to talk more about this, since I think I said all what I have to say and this discussion is getting weird.
Whatever you say
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Removed comment. Unnecessary -Kane317
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Well, to be fair, even though there's a lot of KOF communities in the WEB, I think that we should differentiate which is the purpose of everyone
At least I always saw dreamcancel as an attempt to create a webpage were we could talk from a competitive standpoint, about the KOF series, even though the info here isn't that much because still a good piece of this forum hasn't played the game yet, we had a lot of information thanks to the guys who had a KOF XIII machine in USA. In pages like SRK, or DC, Dustloop, etc, conversations will be based more on the technical stuff of the game, rather than a more ''Point of view from fans''
Speksnk in the other hand, is more a page based on SNK on general, more specifically the Neo Geo, there are really a good chunk of information from the neo geo, and SNK, like mannuals, some move lists, OST, and other stuff like that
And this is why I don't post in SpekSNK anymore, there are not threads which interest me at all because there nobody discuss what I want to see, and the times that they discuss that stuff lots of posters doesn't seem to know WTF they are talking. At least SPEKSNK still is the page which I visit everybody with the hope of seeing some news from SNK because there are always posting them in a short time after is announced.
Dreamcancel is a really peaceful page at least from me, I had seen a lot of worse ''hardcore'' pages where if you point that the sky is blue, they will throw tons of shits and will call you a noob just because sounds cool and they felt that are special because they knew more than the media. At least this page is very noob friendly, it seems like the guys who created this page really want to welcome anybody who is interested in play this game more seriously
Well, my two cents, I think that there is no need to go for you, you're a constant poster, just need to realize that the mentality here is really different of SPEKSNK, none of them is better than the other, they are just different
Well, back to topic, I had a question for those who had played KOF XII in arcade and consoles at the same time, there was any sort of balance in the console version?
There's so little of XII that I really never knew if the modified something in the console port, at least I hope that there's a trend with XIII where they try to fix the game
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At least SPEKSNK still is the page which I visit everybody with the hope of seeing some news from SNK because there are always posting them in a short time after is announced.
Nice to see some people visit SpekSNK, we try to do our best :)
Well, my two cents, I think that there is no need to go for you, you're a constant poster, just need to realize that the mentality here is really different of SPEKSNK, none of them is better than the other, they are just different
Exactly, this is why I'm here. As you said DreamCancel is another point of view about KOF and I'm really interested on it even I'm not a hardcore player.
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Not sure where that came from anyway. Because the scrubs will complain about infs in MvC2 too. The reason Marvel gets played are numerous; Made by Capcom, Marvel license, easy to pick up and play, fanboys, its been played for about a decade. Your analogy is pretty flawed.
I have no clue what you took from my argument but I was pointing out that people played MvC2 regardless of its flaws but those same people(even the ones who know how to play the game well) from what I've seen in random threads in SRK bash KOF games for their infinites and random bugs. I was saying that this mentality of being loyal to a certain game brand is what is hindering the USA snk scene.
What analogy did you think I was making because I don't see how it applies to what you just said?
Oh. My mistake then - I thought you were making a comparison between how Marvel gets played and applied it to KOF in respect to the US. I see now you meant it a bit differently; agreed.
I think it's far simpler than you think; the reason why kof isn't as popular is due to accessibility and cultural preferences. Nothing to do with how we feel about the actual hand. We're getting off topic now.
Let's also keep the hostility/tone down.
I was alluding to this. Capcom is practically a namebrand for US, especially Street Fighter and other franchises like MegaMan. SNK...no, not nearly as much. I'd expect to see MvC3 on the boxes of cereal before I see Terry Bogard.
Also SNK products seem a bit more under the radar compared to Capcom ones over here.
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Removed comment. Unnecessary -Kane317
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If effort to shift the topic in a more positive direction, news has it that AI will get the patch come this Thursday the 14th. That we we can thoroughly test what other bugs that haven't been mentioned (like Iori's DM roll bug etc...).
Part of the reason I split the thread because there's been much talk about how to adjust Raiden's dropkick and I think it should be carried on here.
How do you guys feel about his GCCD into Dropkick, is that too much? Seems like that's where most ppl draw that line, the GCDK. Is removing just that alone enough or should we go reduce the damage, juggle anyway property, make the lvl3&4 a Ex move etc? (or is this topic too late lol).
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only thing tht really needs to be done is lower the damage and its all good. level 4 should be around 175 damage max and come out in 3 or 4 frames. level 3 150 damage, 2 for 125 damage and 1 for 100. something like this. 250 is too much, twice means half your life gone, add ex tackles and nm and its way too much.
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only thing tht really needs to be done is lower the damage and its all good. level 4 should be around 175 damage max and come out in 3 or 4 frames. level 3 150 damage, 2 for 125 damage and 1 for 100. something like this. 250 is too much, twice means half your life gone, add ex tackles and nm and its way too much.
What do you think about leaving the damage the way it is, making lvl 3 and 4 an Ex move, and removing the GCDK. That way they'll need 3 stocks, 1 drive to do 60% which is reasonable--plus of course the charge time he needs (if he wants to do NM after a double dropkick that'll be 5 stocks which is reasonable again). Oh and, reduce his ability to guard crush by a bit. That way they don't hit him with a nerf stick too hard.
That way, he can still do the juggle anywhere, can't GCDK, but can still do some Guard Crushing, still need to charge the 12-16 sec, but needs stocks for lvl4&4. Still a good threat, but not insane in the current form he is.
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That would definitely be an improvement. Although I'm not sure how I feel about a one button charge becoming an EX move after a certain amount of time. It sounds a little imprecise? I'd rather they required you to charge and release both buttons simultaneously. Which would mean they couldn't string two together, but they'd be able to charge the Godkick faster. But hey, that's mostly personal preference.
Regarding balance, who would people name as de facto "balanced" characters? Which character(s) are right in the middle of this game's imaginary tier list, in your opinion? Compared to previous KOFs, I think the mid-tier characters in XIII have a ton of stuff going for them.
One of the first characters I think of is Kensou.
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terry and kim are the shit, yet you never see them (well, kim found his way into the vids). giving terry an air burning knuckle would have been awesome (like in the ff2 anime), light version shoots it off like a fb and the hard version slams into the opponent like the ending of his powerdunk. but lets forget theory fighter, back to the balance issues.
you got a point but im not really feeling it kane. the dropkick should be a threat, and a way to get 100% combos, but only if you have 5 bars. personally lowering the damage would be the best idea, hes still a threat but not overpowered. either you dont charge and get the same damage from command throws and other ways that you cant now because of charging the dropkick, or you dropkick and do the same damage depending on your play style. now dropkick is the way to go, ,mainly because of the damage. 16 second to your death is just too much (damage). 3 command throws do the same damaghe as 2 fully loaded dropkicks, cept you cant follow afterwards. lowering the damage would really fix things up imo.
also did k's jump d bug get taken out or what?
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also did k's jump d bug get taken out or what?
According to early reports, only big glitches and infinites are removed, nothing changed to gameplay or balance.
So K's jump D thingy must be there.
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What's K's jump D bug?
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What's K's jump D bug?
Isn't the weird one we saw in that video versus Kyo? Something like it skips blockstun or something weird like that, I forget.
EDIT:I dunno if this sheds some light but c&p from ON:
-The lag in K's guard cancel forward roll has been removed
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WOOOOOW! So when Takuma was doing his EX moves without a full bar it was cuz of a game glitch? Lol I was under the impression that EX moves just cost 1/2 a bar. Damn, that woulda been cool (though ridiculous for a lot of characters).
If that was fixed then Takuma is no longer very effective meterless, or am I wrong? Idk how good his meterless combos can be but I didn't see a whole lot of em. If so, damn! I was so looking forward to him being my point man.
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If that was fixed then Takuma is no longer very effective meterless, or am I wrong? Idk how good his meterless combos can be but I didn't see a whole lot of em. If so, damn! I was so looking forward to him being my point man.
With a full HD gauge, Takuma can do 90% damage with ONE power bar. And that's just with a DM at the end. Leaving that out should still do over 70%.
Takuma is basically god of combos. Defense is his big weakness.
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If that was fixed then Takuma is no longer very effective meterless, or am I wrong? Idk how good his meterless combos can be but I didn't see a whole lot of em. If so, damn! I was so looking forward to him being my point man.
With a full HD gauge, Takuma can do 90% damage with ONE power bar. And that's just with a DM at the end. Leaving that out should still do over 70%.
Takuma is basically god of combos. Defense is his big weakness.
Takuma is kinda like Shen to me. He's incredibly competent in certain areas yet lacking in others (defense for both of them actually) which spells balance to me. Both have easy to learn combos, both have decent normals, Takuma has a crossup, Shen has a reflect, both are HD monsters as well, both have command grabs that lead into combos (although Shen's need to be an Ex grab).
Both solid characters, and even with the bugs removed, I think Takuma is A borderline A+. Shen is like a solid A.
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If that was fixed then Takuma is no longer very effective meterless, or am I wrong? Idk how good his meterless combos can be but I didn't see a whole lot of em. If so, damn! I was so looking forward to him being my point man.
With a full HD gauge, Takuma can do 90% damage with ONE power bar. And that's just with a DM at the end. Leaving that out should still do over 70%.
Takuma is basically god of combos. Defense is his big weakness.
Takuma is kinda like Shen to me. He's incredibly competent in certain areas yet lacking in others (defense for both of them actually) which spells balance to me. Both have easy to learn combos, both have decent normals, Takuma has a crossup, Shen has a reflect, both are HD monsters as well, both have command grabs that lead into combos (although Shen's need to be an Ex grab).
Both solid characters, and even with the bugs removed, I think Takuma is A borderline A+. Shen is like a solid A.
Awesome, I like to pick lower tier characters generally (like my SSFIV main is Gouken) just because I always respected the low tier players more than the high but sometimes I just love a character too much to care and Takuma looks way too badass. He's got one of the sickest command lists I've seen and I'm so eager to learn him.
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More Spring cleaning, with the patch v1.1 out I think it's clear that the bugs were not intended, and despite how some individuals rather have it in, SNKP lay down their opinion about it. Thread locked. EDIT: AND it's reopened about balance issues.
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Yeah, it's not like SNKP didn't deserve most of the criticism it got re: XII. But I thought Ignition handled it in a noticeably un-professional manner. If I were in SNK's place, I wouldn't want to work with them again either.
I'd like to bring up the issue of game re-balancing again. (If this isn't the right topic for this, please move.) After good netcode, I think re-balancing is the most important thing SNK can do to extend XIII's longevity. I mean, if so many in the online community cringe at the amount of K' and Raiden in videos, I can't imagine more casual fans will enjoy fighting so many of them online. So, who needs fixing?
Raiden: We've already talked about Raiden at length, and all the fixes for him revolve around one thing: fixing the drop kicks. 'Nuff said.
K': K' is another god-tier, right next to Raiden, but I've very few suggestions on how he could be better-balanced. They could lower his overall damage. Perhaps fiddle with the hit boxes on some of his normals. I'm not sure what would be the best way to balance him without pissing off his fans, though.
Elizabeth: I think it's obvious what's over-powered about Elizabeth, but it's hard for me to say exactly what should be changed to prevent uppercut -> uppercut DM abuse. Maybe making the uppercut very unsafe on block? Make the DM slower? Make the A version not juggle the opponent as high? Make the DM weaker? What does everything think?
Kula: Once again, not sure what would be best here. Maybe lower her damage, or, alternatively, lower her defense. She is a little girl, after all. Alternatively, some people may feel she isn't strong enough to justify a nerf.
Rest of the cast: I don't think any of the cast are weak enough to actually require improvements or anything. But some could certainly benefit from it.
So, what does everyone else think?
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Honestly, outside of Raiden's drop kicks, I might not opt for the rebalancing of the top tiers. One thing I'd love to see is more videos from players worldwide, or SNKP themselves on how characters other than K', Raiden, Elizabeth, and Kula can dominate. If it's one thing the technical vids have proven, it's that everyone has a shot. Even lower-tiered characters have advantages that would be critical to winning a match. If it wasn't for Kane and other great Chin players, how much lower would Chin be on the list without showing what that old drunk can actually do? People have been showing how ridiculously powerful Shen could be in the right hands, as well as Andy and Leona. Since everyone is well(enough) equipped in the game, maybe more groups that have access to XIII can go into depth with other characters and show why they're just as dangerous as. Terry, Kim, Benimaru, Athena, Joe, Hwa, Clark, the list goes on.
I know when the game releases on console I'll be working on the low-tier before I touch the infamous 4, just to show players around me and online that a robust cast is just waiting to be used. I know I won't be the only one, but I hope I'm not one of the few.
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well im all for the nerfing of those said characters cause honestly i haven't seen anybody i want to use in a video for a long time
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we think alike rex, cause those 4 characters are the ones ive been hating on the most since the vids of this game being released.
k, jump d fix, qcf+p change, also for its follow ups (not safe either would help, cept for his teleport).
raiden, lowering damage on drop kicks with at least 25%, and having to charge them tiwce as long (8, 16, 24 and 32 second charge would fix raiden perfectly).
lizzy, dp umsafe on block, a version only able to follow up with dm (unless in corner), dp c version should have more scaling on all follow ups.
kula, lowering damage output and making qcb+k less safe on black, same for her follow ups.
if snkp actually has the brains to do these actions or something similar along these lines, then i think we could have the best and most well balanced kof in history. everybody should be viable.
now besides this, we need all the standardd console goodies. good netocode, maybe an extra team (or 2) and where good.
now for the people playing this game, just how bad is the input lag? the jpn players bash this and the balancing the most. is it kof 12 bad, or ssf4 bad, or better than both but still bad for a kof?
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If releasing this game is a worry I say SNKP goes with Aksys. As for balancing is concern raiden would be better balanced if the charge time was changed and the notes about making some moves more unsafe on block.
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I honestly don't get all the nerf liz talk. I'm sure we're all watching the same vids, and everything I see makes me think other characters are scarier. For instance, I find Andy to seem a lot more intimidating. I also see the damage on pro-rated super sometimes and think "Was that really worth it?" Raiden I can understand, K' I can understand, but other than being an easy to use, I don't see Liz really staying top 3. I of course haven't gotten a chance to play yet, but I don't think being a dial-a-combo character warrants this much hatred. Based simply on vids though I feel like Andy is better. Liz you can zone to a point, while Andy has a better set of normals plus the added benefits of having a fireball and AA dp. To that effect, an argument could also be made for robert.
Of course I may be biased, I did really like Liz (L) in XI, but I felt she was only really viable with Leader, since you could punish jumps. With having that option gone, I feel she would suffer from the same things she did in XI, namely trouble getting in and staying in. The fact that now you have cmd grab and dp together is sexy, but it doesn't seem like many go for the cmd grab, which is something that may become more apparent to myself once I actually have time with the game.
So honestly, is the liz hate just because she is so simpo? Because I'm unimpressed by the damage, especially in comparison to of course Raiden, K', and Andy.
EDIT: I also think Iori, Kyo, Yuri, and possibly even takuma may be better, just to clarify (I don't hate andy, lol).
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40% + meterless and non corner combos dont seem broken? unless im wrong about that damage?
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So honestly, is the liz hate just because she is so simpo? Because I'm unimpressed by the damage, especially in comparison to of course Raiden, K', and Andy.
Please don't think I want Liz to be nerfed because I hate her. I think she's a fine character. The only reason I'd want to see her re-balanced is because I think it would make the game more fun.
You mention Andy as a better candidate for a nerf, and while I agree he's quite strong and has lots of good moves, the difference is that he actually uses most of his moves. If you weaken any one of Andy's moves (uppercut, fireball, elbow strike or kick), it would hurt him badly. Watching most Andy videos, I think you'll notice people employing nearly all his moves in order to win.
Elizabeth's problem is not just that she's strong. It's that her uppercut and uppercut DM are disproportionately strong to the rest of her moveset. Her combination of combos, counters and command-throw SHOULD make her very fun to play and watch (more like Chin, in my opinion), but her combos are just too easy, too safe, and too damaging, so the rest of her tool set just doesn't get utilized.
Call me crazy, but I honestly think she'd be more fun if her uppercut / DM weren't the only thing she did.
Same goes for Raiden actually. No one mentions it much, but I think the characters themselves really suffer from these over-powered moves. They're more fun when they're forced to show versatility.
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lizzy really fucking without all the retarded dp/dm shit going on. and raiden, even with nerfed dk hed still be god tier in this game. these 4 characters are soo strong that even with nerfing theyd still at least be high tier characters.
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Please don't think I want Liz to be nerfed because I hate her. I think she's a fine character. The only reason I'd want to see her re-balanced is because I think it would make the game more fun.
You mention Andy as a better candidate for a nerf, and while I agree he's quite strong and has lots of good moves, the difference is that he actually uses most of his moves. If you weaken any one of Andy's moves (uppercut, fireball, elbow strike or kick), it would hurt him badly. Watching most Andy videos, I think you'll notice people employing nearly all his moves in order to win.
Elizabeth's problem is not just that she's strong. It's that her uppercut and uppercut DM are disproportionately strong to the rest of her moveset. Her combination of combos, counters and command-throw SHOULD make her very fun to play and watch (more like Chin, in my opinion), but her combos are just too easy, too safe, and too damaging, so the rest of her tool set just doesn't get utilized.
Call me crazy, but I honestly think she'd be more fun if her uppercut / DM weren't the only thing she did.
Same goes for Raiden actually. No one mentions it much, but I think the characters themselves really suffer from these over-powered moves. They're more fun when they're forced to show versatility.
Well I don't mention Andy in that I think he should be nerfed, but moreso in that I think he's a stronger character overall.
As far as the DM and uppercut DM being too strong, I rarely see her damage coming from a well placed uppercut, or even lucky trades/anti-airs. With the most recent vids posted in the video thread, you see all of her damage coming from her crossup, or just good punishment. Which kind of goes back to what I was originally saying about her being a dial-a-combo simple character. The majority of the time (Or at least it seems so in vids) she is waiting on a punishment opportunity, or hits a well place counter, or a crossup B, and leads into the combo. With that being said, I could agree with making her DP unsafe, but I don't think that's going to make people complain any less.
As far as the DM, again, the damage strictly from the DM seems disproportion to the hate it gets. I could understand more of an argument based on her being too good of a battery, but when I see them hit the DM I just think "I wonder if that meter would've been better off with an EX move" or possibly saved for later. Check the most recent vids and you can see, the DM is not where the damage is coming from. In fact most of the damage I see is from hitting the clean C into whatever, but again, similar comparisons can be made with other characters (Kyo for instance).
I can understand wanting to see her do more, but honestly, with her moveset, there really isn't much else. In a game where random damage can lead to huge losses (Via maxmode/drivecancels/etc) trying a more unsafe approach (say... using more cmd grabs) can make a large difference in whether a character is playable or not.
If anything I find her playstyle to be a little on the boring side, as I myself would mix in more counters and cmd grabs (Probably a bad idea), but if you're going to suggest changes for her, I think something more than "NERF DP/DM!" would be more appropriate. Honestly though, I look at it the same as Kyo.
st. C, f+B, dp C, dp A×2, j.D, qcf hcb+P
or
st. C, df+D (1), qcf+K, rdp+B, qcb hcf+P
The damage isn't that far apart. The important thing to remember as well is how each is going to fair in the match. For example, without meter Kyo is undoubtedly going to be a superior choice, and also (imo) has an overall better moveset and normals. He also has a much more damaging NeoMax combo, as opposed to the mediocre combos Liz is provided with (So far).
Things like that are why I don't understand people continually putting her on the chopping block. There are considerable reasons to place other characters above her, and unfortunately since we only have theory fighter atm, I don't think a lot of those reasons have come to light (if they ever will). Obviously I'm not saying this is how things are, but definitely something I myself have considered.
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difference is that the kyo combo is only possible in corner. iirc that is.
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I said it before and i'll say it again. Nothing in the game needs to be nerfed besides Raiden's Drop Kick. And for that all that needs to be done is making ONLY "1" charge possible at a time at EVERY "16" seconds...
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Are there any Filipino KOF gamers here?
Yes.
Regarding the tiers topic, I always thought Andy, Shen and Kyo were pretty high up there too. The only difference is, the godly four are actually much easier to use than any other character. I can see that everybody has a chance to take the spotlight but the learning curve is much steeper than, say Liz.
Also on Raiden, well he might have godly drop kicks, but he can't use level 3 or 4 immediately in the game. I guess he does need a few nerfs about that but then, holding one or two kick buttons also means he can't roll or use the blowback option. He also loses his overhead with his close standing D. Not to mention, just because you can hold the kick button rather easily doesn't mean you're an instant pro at punishing people who are expecting it.
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About the buff/nerf discussion. I'm totally for rebalancing god-tiers. About what Rex-Dart said about console/casual players will get bored because of Raiden and K'... I'm not sure.. I think this people will simply pick up them to win and they will be happy. Look what happens with shotos in SSFIV. 3 of 4 opponents are Ryu/Ken. But anyway i think people who decided select other characters besides K'-Raiden-Liz should have a chance to win, and, let's face it, win a K'-Raiden-Liz team with, let's say, Mai-King-Mature (my main team) could be really really hard...
So, they should nerf drop kick of Raiden. Just less damage, and more adjusted damage scaling when you combo it.
For K' I think they have to nerf him in general. Pokes preferences, speed, damage and to have to use EX moves to execute good combos (Is for what EX were done, right?). I think his basic combo is too cheap and too damaging. Maybe K' fans will get angry, but what about Terry, Mai, Ryo, Athena, Leona, Clark, Ralf, King, fans??
The same for Kula. Less damage and less defense. And the need to use EX moves in combos.
About Liz, maybe less damage. I'm not sure. But if she doesn't make the cut in KOFXIV I'll be happy.
The rest of the cast I think is fine. Andy is good, like Kyo or Iroi, but I don't see them as broken characters like the infamous 4.
And in general, I think damaging scaling should be rebalanced.
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I said it before and i'll say it again. Nothing in the game needs to be nerfed besides Raiden's Drop Kick. And for that all that needs to be done is making ONLY "1" charge possible at a time at EVERY "16" seconds...
You do realize nerfing his dropkick won't make him any less of a godlike character right?
So, they should nerf drop kick of Raiden. Just less damage, and more adjusted damage scaling when you combo it.
Once again, you do realise nerfing his dropkick won't make him any less of a godlike character right? besides
you can't scale the damage of the dropkicks in a combo if you don't actually combo it.
- LVL. 4 drop kick, st.A, LVL. 4 drop kick
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Even though one could watch one hundred videos, I think that none of us has to much to say about nerfings besides the guys who had constantly played the game or has some way to play it
even though yeah, the dropkick is not the only problem that raiden has, without it the guy still has lots of weapons at simple view
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Yes, maybe sibarraz has the point when says no one of us should talk about rebalance except those who play the game. But I remember Answer saying "nerf Raiden's drop kick, then I will play again that game" (I guess he was kidding, because he actually play it xD, but I guess he was not joking about Raiden's buff).
I think drop kick is the real problem with Raiden, but if it's not the only one, then nerf him more, in general.
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I don't agree with nerfing Raiden or Elizabeth, they're very strong but not broken imo. Honestly, I have more trouble against a good Kyo or Andy than Raiden or Elizabeth.
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difference is that the kyo combo is only possible in corner. iirc that is.
I can see your point with that specific combo, but Kyo still has mid-screen options that will net him similar damage, I was mostly looking for an example with a very similar input option.
Again though, when comparing their movesets, their damage, and overall options, it really seems like Kyo should come out on top. I also believe arguments could be made for the other characters I mentioned.
On the subject of K' and Raiden, I don't think anyone can really argue against Raiden. K' I think could use some tweaking, but I don't think anyone playing 2k2UM now is really surprised by his strength, since he's also really beast in that as well. The main difference that I see is that, in 2k2UM, you can usually pick another character to counter a good K' (King for example). So far in 13 there doesn't seem to really be a counter to K, although I'm sure we've all seen the occasional Beni or Andy win.
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So far in 13 there doesn't seem to really be a counter to K, although I'm sure we've all seen the occasional Beni or Andy win.
I remember Kane winning Duc's K' with Mai :D
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difference is that the kyo combo is only possible in corner. iirc that is.
I can see your point with that specific combo, but Kyo still has mid-screen options that will net him similar damage, I was mostly looking for an example with a very similar input option.
I'd also like to point out that Kyo needs to drive cancel rdp+B into his DM. Also, Kyo's df+D and qcf+K moves are much less safe on block than Betty's f+B or uppercut.
It's not too hard to come up with a few examples of how a high-tier character has advantages over a top-tier character, but I don't think you could convince me that Kyo is actually stronger overall than Elizabeth.
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because Kyo and Andy are mostly used by better players, unlike Raiden which gets picked by everyone wanting a cheap win.
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The only thing i can say about the whole Raiden dropkick(Balanced or unbalanced) is play smart and use your tools to defeat him because despite of that good move he can still be beat from what i seen in some vids. But this is just what i think.
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Yes, maybe sibarraz has the point when says no one of us should talk about rebalance except those who play the game. But I remember Answer saying "nerf Raiden's drop kick, then I will play again that game" (I guess he was kidding, because he actually play it xD, but I guess he was not joking about Raiden's buff).
I think drop kick is the real problem with Raiden, but if it's not the only one, then nerf him more, in general.
At this point it's pretty apparent you know very little about Raiden.
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So far in 13 there doesn't seem to really be a counter to K, although I'm sure we've all seen the occasional Beni or Andy win.
I remember Kane winning Duc's K' with Mai :D
Maybe a meterless K', but once Duc has meter then his K' is a pain in the ass; it'll require me to use Chin against him and even that's a tough match up.
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You do realize nerfing his dropkick won't make him any less of a godlike character right?
of course he would still be a strong character, but it would actually change his game play entirely... he would need to rely on meter to do damage... not get up to 8 DKs per round to use which all do 200-250 damage each and cost no meter and connect from anything...
take out DK... and suddenly we won't see anymore Raiden... just like where did all the faithful Mature/Joe/Goro/Takuma players go?
i still agree that he should still keep his DK cause it's a special feature to him... just make players work for it... (1 chargeable at a time) (every 8-16-24-32 seconds) (100-250 damage) = fair...
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where did all the faithful Mature/Joe/Goro/Takuma players go?
They're picking Raiden and K', because they want to win.
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And in general, I think damaging scaling should be rebalanced.
no, the damage scaling is perfect in this game. best damage scaling ever in a fighter imo. and i still stay by my point, the 4 are too strong.
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You do realize nerfing his dropkick won't make him any less of a godlike character right?
of course he would still be a strong character, but it would actually change his game play entirely... he would need to rely on meter to do damage... not get up to 8 DKs per round to use which all do 200-250 damage each and cost no meter and connect from anything...
take out DK... and suddenly we won't see anymore Raiden... just like where did all the faithful Mature/Joe/Goro/Takuma players go?
i still agree that he should still keep his DK cause it's a special feature to him... just make players work for it... (1 chargeable at a time) (every 8-16-24-32 seconds) (100-250 damage) = fair...
You seem to be missing the point that it's not the dropkicks that make it ridiculous but the ability to juggle afterwords with a EX Shoulder Tackle. The DKs themselves are fine.
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no, ex shoulder makes sense. it seems you dont get it, its an ex.
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No, the drop kicks are not fine. They do stupid damage, use no meter, set up more combos, can combo into each other, can combo after a CD counter, have anywhere juggle and have invincibility to go through anything (which means its very dangerous to zone him with fireballs etc). Aside from that BS they are also in the arsenal of a grappler, so, while the opponent is busy trying to avoid and bait drop kicks, which often times results in turtling and holding back, Raiden gets ample opportunities to get his grab and grab super on.
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Raiden keeps reminding me of this line:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWrbP-tD1ew#t=11m18s
"Just don't get drop kicked."
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At this point it's pretty apparent you know very little about Raiden.
This is not about how much I know about Raiden. It's about thanks to all these bunch of vids with K' and Raiden, people, some kof fans other potential console buyers/players, are saying "KOF XIII is a broken and unbalanced game,", and about if SNKPlaymore is going to try to fix this or not for console version and future arcade updates.
the decision to nerf Raiden and how is not mine, so to know little or not about Raiden is not the point. what I'm saying is that Raiden is one of those 4 that need to be nerfed in some way to contribute a more balanced game. And I'm not the only one saying this.
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No, the drop kicks are not fine. They do stupid damage, use no meter, set up more combos, can combo into each other, can combo after a CD counter, have anywhere juggle and have invincibility to go through anything (which means its very dangerous to zone him with fireballs etc). Aside from that BS they are also in the arsenal of a grappler, so, while the opponent is busy trying to avoid and bait drop kicks, which often times results in turtling and holding back, Raiden gets ample opportunities to get his grab and grab super on.
I agree about getting the DKs off of GCCD forgot about that. But everything else I disagree with, once again during the 16 seconds Raiden is charging RUSH HIS ASS DOWN we even saw in the latest set of videos a Iroi tear Raiden up that whole time *And he probably would have won had he finished his combo*. And he can't use his throws if he's using his command throws, if he does he has to give up that DK thus netting you another 16 seconds to get on him if he goes for the kicks again.
This is not about how much I know about Raiden.
You're trying to speak on why he should be nerfed and how and for dumb reasons at that. I'm pretty sure when it comes to discussing about why a character should be nerfed or changed having a basic knowledge of the character is a good idea.
It's about thanks to all these bunch of vids with K' and Raiden, people, some kof fans other potential console buyers/players, are saying "KOF XIII is a broken and unbalanced game,", and about if SNKPlaymore is going to try to fix this or not for console version and future arcade updates.
Those people would most likely be saying the same thing whether it was Raiden, K', Mai, or whoever at the top. For the most part they have very little knowledge of the game and I could personally give a fuck less about them. And your average consumer who's not that hardcore into fighting games most likely won't give a fuck either, after all look at Marvel.
the decision to nerf Raiden and how is not mine, so to know little or not about Raiden is not the point. what I'm saying is that Raiden is one of those 4 that need to be nerfed in some way to contribute a more balanced game. And I'm not the only one saying this.
Then why are you even bothering to discuss it in the first place. And other than Raiden and K' no one else needs to be changed, balance for the most part is a very overrated concept or else games like Marvel or 3S would not have been popular for as long as they have been.
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having a basic knowledge of the character is a good idea.
This exactly what I have about Raiden. But it's not enough for you. Everytime I try to explain my point of view, somebody say "you noob, shut up, you don't know a shit". Ok, is exactly what I'm going to do.
I'm to old for this, anyway.
But let me say this is not good way to help to grow KOF community.
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I agree about getting the DKs off of GCCD forgot about that. But everything else I disagree with, once again during the 16 seconds Raiden is charging RUSH HIS ASS DOWN we even saw in the latest set of videos a Iroi tear Raiden up that whole time *And he probably would have won had he finished his combo*. And he can't use his throws if he's using his command throws, if he does he has to give up that DK thus netting you another 16 seconds to get on him if he goes for the kicks again.
Really? That's your idea of balance? Rush like an idiot for 16 seconds in hopes of taking the other guy out? Good luck with that against a good player.
And its not 16 seconds, he gets the anywhere juggle property earlier, at around the 12 second or so, so if he has meter, and he usually does because no one puts him first, he can 90% to 100% you at that point.
Not only was that Iori lucky to have landed the HD to "tear Raiden up the whole time" shorty after the round started but he also further proved Raiden's BS but getting the shit kicked out of him within a couple of seconds right after he dropped the combo. So yeah, nice example.
He can charge two DKs at a time so your point about losing charge for grabs doesn't make sense, not to mention his grab super is done with punches.
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having a basic knowledge of the character is a good idea.
This exactly what I have about Raiden. But it's not enough for you. Everytime I try to explain my point of view, somebody say "you noob, shut up, you don't know a shit". Ok, is exactly what I'm going to do.
I'm to old for this, anyway.
But let me say this is not good way to help to grow KOF community.
Let's keep the discussion civil (both parties). Anyways, why does it say guest under your name?
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Anyways, why does it say guest under your name?
It means the account was deleted, either by him or by a mod. x:
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Really? That's your idea of balance? Rush like an idiot for 16 seconds in hopes of taking the other guy out? Good luck with that against a good player.
And if you're an equally skilled player like we saw you can pull it off seeing how it is a drawback of the DKs.
And its not 16 seconds, he gets the anywhere juggle property earlier, at around the 12 second or so, so if he has meter, and he usually does because no one puts him first, he can 90% to 100% you at that point.
Most characters can kill or severely hurt you in 12 seconds especially characters like Iori, Shen,or Maxima. We've even seen some evidence that Dou is a bad match up for him. That's what we need more of, people trying to find ways to work with what we have instead of just complaining and hoping it get changed.
Not only was that Iori lucky to have landed the HD to "tear Raiden up the whole time" shorty after the round started but he also further proved Raiden's BS but getting the shit kicked out of him within a couple of seconds right after he dropped the combo. So yeah, nice example.
So your character argument is that seeing how the Iori player fucked up and paid for it rushing Raiden down isn't a viable strategy, natch.
He can charge two DKs at a time so your point about losing charge for grabs doesn't make sense, not to mention his grab super is done with punches.
He loses one DK he's lost a good chunk of damage. And his regular command throws are done with kicks, the Super should probably be the same in a path later on.
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u know what... at this point it's just a matter of opinion... some think it's unfair, some think it's fair... personally at this point i would even be fine with just reducing it to 1 DK at a time... (and maybe only LVL4 can be comboed afterwards...?)
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Wouldn't Leona be a good counter to Raiden? She can do a 100% combo with 1(or 2) bars right?
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maybe it wouldn't irk players if raiden could only charge 1 DK at a time? i think it would decrease his damage output in combos just enough to the point where it would be more like 50-60% instead of 85-95%
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One thing i notice and you guys probably notice it too, is atleast 3 out of the top 4 high tier characters build or all 4 build their stocks or meter really quickly it is amazing to see the advantage they got over other characters
Im probably wrong in my observation
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nah, your wrong. the reason it looks like this is because they are the ones that constantly keep attacking, blocking opponents or opponents getting hit is your bar building extra quickly. when your the one on the receiving end your bars also fill slowly. you have to attack to build bar, and the top tiers attack better. even during hits they get more bar because they can use more normals, command normals and special attacks during 1 combo without using dc or dm bar. for example, terry can only do s.C, df+C, qcb+A as a combo without using meter. on the other hand k, kula, lizzy, kyo & andy can use more than that to combo, thus building more bar. k as example, s.C, f+A, qcf+A, f+D, qcb+B or B, again qcb+B or D, dp+C, D. all this in 1 combo without using bar, shits unfair.
im also thinking using ioris command grab during combos might fill more bar, as it could potentially let you fdo more specials without using the dc or dm bar. ask the people playing though.
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I loled when I read about drawbacks on Raiden's drop kicks and that the solution is to rush Raiden down. Those kicks have to be seriously nerfed. End of discussion. They will spoil the fun for the casuals on the console version. Raiden is not handicapped enough in those 16 seconds to deserve 80% free of stock damage.
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nah, your wrong. the reason it looks like this is because they are the ones that constantly keep attacking, blocking opponents or opponents getting hit is your bar building extra quickly. when your the one on the receiving end your bars also fill slowly. you have to attack to build bar, and the top tiers attack better. even during hits they get more bar because they can use more normals, command normals and special attacks during 1 combo without using dc or dm bar. for example, terry can only do s.C, df+C, qcb+A as a combo without using meter. on the other hand k, kula, lizzy, kyo & andy can use more than that to combo, thus building more bar. k as example, s.C, f+A, qcf+A, f+D, qcb+B or B, again qcb+B or D, dp+C, D. all this in 1 combo without using bar, shits unfair.
im also thinking using ioris command grab during combos might fill more bar, as it could potentially let you fdo more specials without using the dc or dm bar. ask the people playing though.
I thought at first everyone was going to burning meter for big damage but things didn't work out that way. Everyone in XIII got new juggles but it just came down to superior tools. Like K's example vs Leona who can now do crBX2>overhead>special/V-Slasher. K' still have the superior tools under his belt.
One of my major gripes is Liz and her damn juggles and her ultra safe moves. K's midscreen juggles are a bit much but Liz is crazy shit. No one should be getting juggles like that for no meter.
I would say make the characters do (non meter)combos like whatever>command normal>special ender but then that'll homogenized the game and we'll get something like SSFIV and everything being jab jab jab>whatever.
Raiden's Drop Kick is retarded. In version 1.0 he had the fastest non meter way to kill anyone. And on top of that it does about 60% guard bar damage. I would say have SNKP rework some of the damage on some moves and rework damage scaling.
I forgot one thing: Iori. This dude CANNOT get a knockdown without burning meter. WTF. I'm not even asking for an untechable KD here. Why can't get he get a knockdown midscreen? Everyone else in the game can do it.
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One of my major gripes is Liz and her damn juggles and her ultra safe moves. K's midscreen juggles are a bit much but Liz is crazy shit. No one should be getting juggles like that for no meter.
Raiden's Drop Kick is retarded. In version 1.0 he had the fastest non meter way to kill anyone. And on top of that it does about 60% guard bar damage. I would say have SNKP rework some of the damage on some moves and rework damage scaling.
I forgot one thing: Iori. This dude CANNOT get a knockdown without burning meter. WTF. I'm not even asking for an untechable KD here. Why can't get he get a knockdown midscreen? Everyone else in the game can do it.
Yeah Liz is ridiculous, being able to start her crap off of a command grab and counter move is just overkill, not to mention she can juggle with two DMs at a time (corner). She can't dominate like K' because her overall arsenal is inferier but yeah, she definitely needs tweeking.
Why do you mention v1.0 for Raiden? He is exactly the same in v1.1.
Overall I'm glad how different Iori is compared to the way he was previously, the less shotos the better. Not being able to score knockdowns doesn't seem to be hurting his game in the least and is a nice contrast to Kyo. The guy is a solid A class character.
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I loled when I read about drawbacks on Raiden's drop kicks and that the solution is to rush Raiden down.
Well judging from the videos rushing Raiden down while he's charging provides the most effective results, you guys need to stop skipping all the Raiden/K' videos because you're missing out on some good stuff.
Raiden is not handicapped enough in those 16 seconds to deserve 80% free of stock damage.
He is handicapped, but the problem is that Raiden can make up for that with his really strong normals, priority, and still be able to zone out projectiles with Poison Mist, and do combos like cr.X/St.X + hcbx2+AC.
Both lvl. 4 kicks with a st.A in the middle do somewhere around 55% raw damage, and if the Raiden player has the extra meter/drive he can continue with...
db~f+AC, qcb+C, (DC) db~f+AC, qcb+Ax2, dp+P to do the additional 40~42% damage
anyway if they were to nerf Raiden, imo they should
- Get rid of his ability to do a lvl. 4 dropkick after a GCA, that's bullshit
- Cut the amount of meter he gets from the lvl. 4 dropkick on hit in half, way too much
- Nerf his EX tackle, it re-juggles the opponent in the corner which is the ONLY reason why he can pull off that extra 40~42% without doing a Neomax, they should make that the opponent falls faster after X amount of juggle attacks (doesn't happen when you use EX tackle in succession), it'll force the Raiden player to sacrifice more meter/drive to take you out
There's probably more but I think those are the most important nerfs but won't severely cripple him imo.
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I think people believe rushing down Raiden is silly because this game has strong offensive play and they fear getting in Raiden's face. I'd like to know what people who stand against getting in Raiden's face would recommend. You can't run away from Raiden because then he can freely charge up without having to worry about blocking anything. At least by rushing him down you can attempt to break open his defense. It's like people want to back away from him because of attacking being a risk and Raiden's sheer damage output. Duo Lon can't just sit back and use far pokes all day.
But if you run away you're making it easier for him so...
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Rushdown is the way to go but that doesn't change the fact that its stupid that you are forced into this position from the start of a round.
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About K': I think what Musolini said earlier is absolutely right on the money about how he builds meter fast, it ties in to my next point. One of the main thing that really sets him apart from the rest of the cast is his juggle starters. A handful of the cast can do long damaging corner combos, but often time they need drive, stock or both. On top of that, K''s main juggle starter Eins Trigger (qcf+P) into his follows up Second Shoot (f+B) and Second Shell (f+D) have little to no recovery (-3) frames and (-2) frames respectively (for a point of reference, light attacks are usually 4 or sometimes 3 frames).
Let's think about this: he has good recovery for corner traps that setup damaging long juggles, he's builds up meter quick due to safe strings, he's a perfect 1st character since the opponent doesn't have much meter to GCCD or GCAB themselves -- which makes him arguably one of the hardest characters to get out of the corner against. Oh, he can also start his juggles with Narrow Spike (qcb K.qcb K) and his j.CD on counters . Factor in a good Neomax and super good air normals is why he stands apart from the rest IMHO.
Let's not forget that Arcadia October edition dedicated a section on how to fight 4 characters: K', Kula, Mature (v1.0), Iori. I think they left Raiden out coz there's nothing you really can do against him lol.
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About K': I think what Musolini said earlier is absolutely right on the money about how he builds meter fast, it ties in to my next point. One of the main thing that really sets him apart from the rest of the cast is his juggle starters. A handful of the cast can do long damaging corner combos, but often time they need drive, stock or both. On top of that, K''s main juggle starter Eins Trigger (qcf+P) into his follows up Second Shoot (f+B) and Second Shell (f+D) have little to no recovery (-3) frames and (-2) frames respectively (for a point of reference, light attacks are usually 4 or sometimes 3 frames).
Let's think about this: he has good recovery for corner traps that setup damaging long juggles, he's builds up meter quick due to safe strings, he's a perfect 1st character since the opponent doesn't have much meter to GCCD or GCAB themselves -- which makes him arguably one of the hardest characters to get out of the corner against. Oh, he can also start his juggles with Narrow Spike (qcb K.qcb K) and his j.CD on counters . Factor in a good Neomax and super good air normals is why he stands apart from the rest IMHO.
Let's not forget that Arcadia October edition dedicated a section on how to fight 4 characters: K', Kula, Mature (v1.0), Iori. I think they left Raiden out coz there's nothing you really can do against him lol.
The December issue had a whole section about Raiden, but I think it was just a guide to how to connect the drop kicks. I even remember a section that talked about which button layout made it easier to hold down B and D.
Regarding K' (and perhaps Kula), would it make sense to handicap them by artificially reducing the speed at which they gained meter? Since their meter-less combos are probably the longest in the game, it makes sense to me for them to gain meter slower. Has that ever been done for any other KOF characters?
I really appreciate everybody's opinions and insights on this topic. It's an interesting subject to me.
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The December issue had a whole section about Raiden, but I think it was just a guide to how to connect the drop kicks. I even remember a section that talked about which button layout made it easier to hold down B and D.
Which layout did they say it was easier? BTW, when are you coming back to Cali?
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The December issue had a whole section about Raiden, but I think it was just a guide to how to connect the drop kicks. I even remember a section that talked about which button layout made it easier to hold down B and D.
Which layout did they say it was easier? BTW, when are you coming back to Cali?
I think they said the box is superior, but don't quote me on that. If you head over to kof-uk.blogspot.com, you can see some pictures of the article he posted up.
Man, that Raiden article could almost be a parody of XIII. EVERYTHING LEADS TO DROP KICKS.
(And I'll be back in California for the last two weeks of December, approximately.)
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The December issue had a whole section about Raiden, but I think it was just a guide to how to connect the drop kicks. I even remember a section that talked about which button layout made it easier to hold down B and D.
Which layout did they say it was easier? BTW, when are you coming back to Cali?
neo cd pad lay out is great for kof.
C D
A B
i found this one and A, B, C, D in most arcades. problem in turkey was that in a lot of arcades the first lay out had all the buttons mixed (something like:)
D A
B C
or some other dumb ass shit. also im guessing this goes for a lot of arcades, but using the first player is a big no no in some arcades (cept in japan where they actually maintain their shit).
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I loled when I read about drawbacks on Raiden's drop kicks and that the solution is to rush Raiden down.
Well judging from the videos rushing Raiden down while he's charging provides the most effective results, you guys need to stop skipping all the Raiden/K' videos because you're missing out on some good stuff.
Raiden is not handicapped enough in those 16 seconds to deserve 80% free of stock damage.
He is handicapped, but the problem is that Raiden can make up for that with his really strong normals, priority, and still be able to zone out projectiles with Poison Mist, and do combos like cr.X/St.X + hcbx2+AC.
Both lvl. 4 kicks with a st.A in the middle do somewhere around 55% raw damage, and if the Raiden player has the extra meter/drive he can continue with...
db~f+AC, qcb+C, (DC) db~f+AC, qcb+Ax2, dp+P to do the additional 40~42% damage
anyway if they were to nerf Raiden, imo they should
- Get rid of his ability to do a lvl. 4 dropkick after a GCA, that's bullshit
- Cut the amount of meter he gets from the lvl. 4 dropkick on hit in half, way too much
- Nerf his EX tackle, it re-juggles the opponent in the corner which is the ONLY reason why he can pull off that extra 40~42% without doing a Neomax, they should make that the opponent falls faster after X amount of juggle attacks (doesn't happen when you use EX tackle in succession), it'll force the Raiden player to sacrifice more meter/drive to take you out
There's probably more but I think those are the most important nerfs but won't severely cripple him imo.
Pretty much what I've been saying the whole time along with a few others, and I never noticed how much meter he got off of them till now, that is way to much.[
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The Iori talked got moved to his section (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=286.msg6335#msg6335).
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Takuma needs to combo his Hard "tatsu" off of his cr.lk. He just doesn't seem to be much of a threat anymore mid-screen with no meter.
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Takuma needs to combo his Hard "tatsu" off of his cr.lk. He just doesn't seem to be much of a threat anymore mid-screen with no meter.
He's real good as it is, Mr KoF uses him all the time and maybe we should record him using it. The light version still pushes you decently far and it's not too hard for him to get you into the corner between his projectiles, Hienshippukyaku (said flying kick), and j.CD.
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I noticed that Ralf qcb+A/C is supposed to be a defensive move. I think it could really benefit him if the speed and radius was improved a bit.
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hey since this is the general discussion, who do you guys think of as the top 3 or 5 least complete characters in the game?
#1: Mai, ive been saying this since the very first time i saw her moveslist and in game play. some tried to dismiss it by saying shes just different, but shes dead boring. her worst itteration ever in a kof cept for 94.
#2: Terry, again one of my favorite characters that got done in. as a mai and terry user this sucks, but at least terry is more complete than mai, which is still a minor plus.
#3: i think either clarck or goro? maybe im missing somebod?
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Vice and Mature? I think Vice needs a bit more of moves.
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mature is good enough, maybe your right about vice though. would have been nice if she had her multikick move that was also possible in the air (mature had it too).
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I like the "concept" of the new Vice more than the old one. I wouldn't mind seeing her get something else though. I really like her followup from CvS, where she'd snatch you from the air, and slam you back to the ground.
Hwa seems like he could use something to make "Drink Pink" more worth using, or just to make HIM more worth using in general.
I'm still confused by most Terry players, I have to say. Ex Burn Knuckle seems to be exactly what he needs to use most of the time, and EX Busta.W is is combo DM of choice. I guess he could use something to freshen up his meterless combos, though. Power Dunk, or maybe Fire Kick, offering free setup into EX Geyser.
Mai being the last person who I think could REALLY use something. I like the fact she has a strong Air game, so if she has a command normal similiar to Athena's, that puts her in an instant aerial state, that'd be fairly nice. Especially if it causes move cancel in HD mode, like Ash's command kicks do from his Flash kick. Failing that, just give her Kagero ^_^
That's probably the major things. Even people like Clark and Maxima I'm not too annoyed with as time goes on. Most of what I want back for them are just for nostalgic reasons, rather than actually seeing things as being NEEDED...
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if i where a DEV, terry would ge his firekick. its a good juggkle starter, and easy to program cause only when the slide hits, the launcher hits. unlike his powercharge from 97 and the infinites they couldnt improve (cause they fucked the move up in 98). i would mind an air move for terry either, something like a ground pound from the air. like his power dunk but it smashes through to the ground.
and no, mai needs the most new moves out of anybody. shes needs her overhead so she can combo into air ;dn ;db ;bk P. also another command move like her slide or something similar would be nice as well. i also would mind her dp that she had from 95/98. also the rest of her air command moves from 2k2. this way shed actually maybe be fun to use, dont understand why people would like capcom style boring ass characters with almost no special moves or such. is it that attracttive and fun to be jumping around ;c ;d'ing people? also an air kachosen would be dope as fuck, mai needs as much air shit as she can get imo. she could have been one of the most fun characters, but no they made her kofxii bitchmade style imo.
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Oh, when I said "Mai being the last person who I think could REALLY use something" I meant... "she's the last on this list", not "she doesn't need much", lol. Sorry if that read funny.
It would be great if she had something to "anywhere juggle" with after those Air CD hits. K' shouldn't have that over her! Air Kachosen (A = Horizontal, C = 45 degree downward, and EX as multihit flaming horizontal thow) could end up being really nice. Would give her time to reach the ground, and maybe use Musasabi no Mai to catch on the way down, or jump back into the air, to combo into more air moves, or air throw...
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How about Athena? I haven't really seen anything about Athena at all. I mean I remember seen some player user her as a keep away character and she was really annoying. But after that I haven't seen any good Athena at all.
I think King would benefit for some more moves or ways to continue her combos.
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How about Athena? I haven't really seen anything about Athena at all. I mean I remember seen some player user her as a keep away character and she was really annoying. But after that I haven't seen any good Athena at all.
I think King would benefit for some more moves or ways to continue her combos.
Did you ever see the Athena's who did the Psycho sword Midscreen HD mode juggles with teleport? Plus very safe use of Phoenix Arrow + ability to chase after fireballs and start combos with Close C. And she has a command throw! She seems to have the tools, and pretty much all the useful moves she's ever really had in KoF, so minus DM phoenix arrow, I don't know if she NEEDS anything, personally... (would love to play her to find out, lol.)
King is another character I can agree could use maybe 1 more move. I'd prefer it to be the return of Mirage Dance. I'm a big fan of Illusion Dance (one of the primary reasons I loved playing her back in the day), but I'd still prefer the mixup potential MD could give her more. EX version could just make it into one of those "Does enough damage to be a mini DM" moves, which would make it a good combo ender, and negate the scaling all her hits gain. Plus the moves inclusion would give more reason to play her up-close and personal (like in 2k2UM!), rather than just zonezonezone.
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Nop, I haven't seen that Athena who did that combo. That is why I ask about Athena, I see she has all her great moves, yet I don't see her been played at all. I kinda wish her EX Phoenix Arrow was more like her Phoenix Arrow DM, maybe just repeat it twice and make it safe? Or just give her her Phoenix Arrow DM. But I have yet to see a good Athena recently.
I think King needs her Surprise Rose DP more, but her Mirage Dance would be awesome to have too. Besides they already have Surprise Rose sprites so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Her Illusion Dance was always awesome because of the backdash she does and it was always cool to watch. But she needs 1 more move, I don't care which one, but she feels a bit incomplete like Vice.
EDIT: You know what, maybe giving King the ability to do her Tornado Kick in the air will help her out greatly.
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Nop, I haven't seen that Athena who did that combo. That is why I ask about Athena, I see she has all her great moves, yet I don't see her been played at all. I kinda wish her EX Phoenix Arrow was more like her Phoenix Arrow DM, maybe just repeat it twice and make it safe? Or just give her her Phoenix Arrow DM. But I have yet to see a good Athena recently.
Lets see... Well, Athena at the end of this old KCE Vid takes out raiden nicely: http://youtu.be/kkJRV2aagho
Beginning of this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahq3YCMv27E
Bah, cannot find the HD mode athena midscreen I remember. Maybe it was in one of the European live streams :(
2/3rds of her P.Arrows are already safe (weak and EX), so I dunno if changing the EX one would be worth much, other than just giving her something that might look more fun to play with.
Teleport cancel into throw mixup is great, wonderful fireball, solid runaway, an air move to HD cancel her Psycho swords into more damage, a DM that's a fantastic reversal, and great normal, or as an EX, corner combo insanity... Maybe she'd benifit more from a change in move properties.
As it stands, it seems like the only thing REALLY holding her back, is that she's not Shen, Maxima, K', Raiden, etc. They're all meter hogs, just like she can be, and her multi-hits probably scale her more than anyone would like.
I think King needs her Surprise Rose DP more, but her Mirage Dance would be awesome to have too. Besides they already have Surprise Rose sprites so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Her Illusion Dance was always awesome because of the backdash she does and it was always cool to watch. But she needs 1 more move, I don't care which one, but she feels a bit incomplete like Vice.
EDIT: You know what, maybe giving King the ability to do her Tornado Kick in the air will help her out greatly.
Normal Suprise Rose MIGHT work, but... There's just so much repetition in her moves already! Same with Aerial Tornado Kick. Now, if they use the "Foot stomp" part of Suprise Rose DM in order to give her a from-the-air aggressive "divekick", that's safe on block (non EX), I could see that working, though I'd be a lot like Athena's Phoenix Arrow..
I wouldn't even mind if they just gave her a "Reset Throw" similiar to Takuma's new move. No real damage on it's own, but lets you control things once you trap the opponent in your multi-hit ground move (Zanretsuken for him, Trap shot for her).
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well maybe it s alreaby been said but i d really like to see all those juggles taken away.. i mean, at least SNK should put a limit on how many juggles/hits a character can actually do. Of course it`s just my opinion, maybe the majority of the ppl like those juggles....it`s just u know...a little boring.
I m not saying "take them all away",just put a limit...
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athena is a beast, ive seen her in capable hands and it was scary. same way ralph might not seem that impressive, untill you see him in the hands of a pro. mai just lacks options and creativety, same for terry. which is really a shame imo. i feel that pretty much every character in this game is represented in their best and most fun versions ever. cept for terry and most def not for mai. mai needs to be flying everywhere, not just in her nm but in her combos as well.
taking juggles away is a nono, maybe a little bit for k, lizzy and kula. the rest of the cast needs meter to do all tyhose combos, which is all good imo. the only ones they need to tone down on the juggles are these 3 i mentioned, they need more bars for all those non corner juggles imo.
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asociale: Orochinagi.com forums had a bid of discussion on wanting to limit juggles, were you a part of that? I was kinda suprised to see it myself; I'm a person who hated the long, braindead-looking juggles in MvC2, because there was no reason a bunch of stupid normals and flight mode glitches should be so powerful and time-eating. And the crowd would get so hype... I hated them as much as I hated Mature and Joe's infinates in 1.0.
However, with XIII 1.1... personally, I was a bit turned off by them at first, but now, as I get into how much meter they take, layerd atop execution and timing... I find them exciting to see. On a gameplay design, and gameplay use level. I find their level of "Extention through meter use" perfectly answers all the times I questioned "WHY DOESN'T THAT WORK! Looks like it should!" in so many of the past games... often, they exceed my expectations!
I think this games Juggle and cancel systems ARE it's identity. They're what make it a refinement of 2k2, and not a lazy ripoff, gameplay wise. I feel they fit incredibly well with the "team" mentality of KoF, and make you know "This is a game where you need to learn to play ALL your characters!", unlike the way people play Marvel VS, or even KoF XI.
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kof xiii has the best combo and juggle system in fighting game history. cept for some moves tha dont seem to connect (powergeyser or ex heyser juggles).
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I don't see a problem with the Juggle system, but I do see a problem with the Scaling system. Not necessarily that it's bad, just that it could have some more fixing, specially in some characters moves. Yet I just talk for what I watch, I have no KOF13 machine close by, the closest one is like 4 to 5 hrs or so.
Lets see... Well, Athena at the end of this old KCE Vid takes out raiden nicely: http://youtu.be/kkJRV2aagho
Beginning of this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahq3YCMv27E
Bah, cannot find the HD mode athena midscreen I remember. Maybe it was in one of the European live streams :(
Oh wow, I didn't see those matches before. Damn that is an awesome Athena and for the looks of it, she doesn't really need anything. I will definitely check her out ones I play 13. lol
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I don't think the game really needs new moves. Besides, when making the console version, spending time animating new moves isn't a smart allocation of resources. Learning that Terry got one new move is only going to get Terry fans excited. But announcing a new character, with the promise of a DLC character to come, would get lots of people talking and speculating.
Furthermore, the game is decently balanced already. If they just toned down the top two, or top four, it would be amazing. The console version shouldn't reinvent the wheel.
One of the few character I could see using some buffs would be Goro. Maybe give him back the auto-guard on his hcf+P moves. I mean, SNK was pretty generous with the autoguard on Maxima. It would really help him out I think.
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tonming down top 4, and adding moves to mai and terry. aint that bad. add 3 to 6 or maybe even 9 console characters and its a go.
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about the juggles i see your point (by You i mean u all),but to me they are too boring and too long... i agree there are not easy to do and all but u know when it comes to joe,yuri and co. i d like to leave the machine right away..i like the game and everything but when it comes to juggles i can t agree with that...i know it`s THE gameplay and without juggles is just 2k2 with new graphics, but to me too many juggles just bore the hell out of me :)
about the adding moves thing, i actually dont see why snk should do that :)
i ve never written on orochinagi
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DarKaoZ: Heck, watching the vids of those Athena's again, renews my desire to play her too, haha. EX Shining Crystal Bit is awesome, Psycho Sword -> cancel combos are so fluid...
And I love the fact that even the old vids of this game offer good matches to watch... really speaks for how much potential the game as a whole has.
I can agree a bit on the scaling stuff too... it seems to affect some characters too heavily. A small change to how it affects certain characters moves would probably help a good deal.
Rex Dart: Eh, can't entirely agree. SNKP said each chara has something like 500/600 frames in XII, so we can assume in this game, with NM, new normals, new DMs, EX moves, taunts, and time out poses, that they've probably be upgraded to something like 700 frames per chara. Whatever new characters they make, to be complete, have to meet this heightened number.
So, lets say they made 5 characters worth of work for console release. 3,500 frames of work. If they cut 1 character out (4 new charas), they can spread those 700 saved frames to give each of the old 31 characters about 22 new frames each. For some characters, that would mean a new move, maybe. For others, it could mean new taunts, a new winpose, stun / time out animations, a special VS intro, an "alt" costume like Raiden's facemask, anything. And not every character would need as much new as others, so that's even more frames to those who need them. Work on the old characters already has style and base-chara-model made, so it's quicker (and possibly cheaper) to produce, too.
SNKP states they don't wanna p'o the arcade operators, so smaller changes are probably pretty likely.
And they did such a great job with stuffing the arcade game with new things at the last min (like Leona's new DM, revisions to Neomax moves, taunts, etc), that I wouldn't be too suprised for them to do such a thing for the console release.
asociale: -nod- Yeah, I can understand where you're coming from. It's like watching 20 second long fireball wars! It's annoying to either be under diminished control, or NO control at all, for that long. But that's why I love the fact that this game offers cancels, NM, and EX along with the insanity of HD juggles. You can never control your opponents playstyle in games like this, but I'm glad the options let you choose what YOUR style is, without one seeming weaker than the other. I really think the fact that various characters have varied lengths of combos helps diversify the 31 character cast well.
I hope they maintain such diversity with any new characters added, too. It would such for every character they add to be a 20-second-combo machine, haha. Also need some characters doing the same amount of damage in 4 or 5 powerful hits!
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It looks like every character can do something, so I don't think a lot of buffs are in order. Maybe give Clark his Frankensteiner back.
Other than that, just nerf K', Raiden, and Liz.
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.Other than that, just nerf K', Raiden, and Liz.
you forgot kula.
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I thought she was very beatable? She could do the same shit as she could in the other games. Maybe give her Ice Breath more recovery so she can be punished? That way she can't lock you down in the corner as much.
They wouldn't have to do a lot to balance the game, correct me if I'm and feel free to:
Just add additional recovery to K's Flame so it's not so easy for him to lock you down in the corner. Nerf the damage he does by a bit.
Raiden: Just nerf the amount of guard crush and damage his dropkick does. He should keep his Drop kick combos, just nerf the damage on them.
Liz: Shouldn't be able to link Super off of a trade Anti Air. Maybe make her Anti Air a little less safe.
You don't want to nerf a character too much, or else you get Sean from 3rd Strike.
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Changing ice breath's recovery? The problem is with Ray Spin, not Diamond Breath. It was Ray Spin that allowed her to juggle for a long time with enough drive gauge and power stocks. Giving Diamond Breath more recovery will just encourage people to use the same Ray Spin juggles all over again.
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Changing ice breath's recovery? The problem is with Ray Spin, not Diamond Breath. It was Ray Spin that allowed her to juggle for a long time with enough drive gauge and power stocks. Giving Diamond Breath more recovery will just encourage people to use the same Ray Spin juggles all over again.
To put it in perspective, her Ray Spin is so good now (D and Ex versions in particular) that there's really no need to use her stocks for any DM, when's the last time you saw her do a DM (similar to Chin, his Ex moves are so damn good that his DM is kinda moot).
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I don't know why people think Kula is so strong, her main strenght seems to be , like previously said, her Ray Spin, and even with that , she needs a decent amount of power stocks to be really dangerous with the EX version of that move (same with Elisabeth and her DM).
Unless i'm missing something important (like damage they deal or something) i don't see much problem with Kula and Elisabeth.
Oh well, i haven't played the game yet, so these are just my 2 cents.
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I don't know why people think Kula is so strong, her main strenght seems to be , like previously said, her Ray Spin, and even with that , she needs a decent amount of power stocks to be really dangerous with the EX version of that move (same with Elisabeth and her DM).
Unless i'm missing something important (like damage they deal or something) i don't see much problem with Kula and Elisabeth.
Oh well, i haven't played the game yet, so these are just my 2 cents.
In short, two things just the top of my head, builds meter real easy and simple, almost brain dead, damaging combos (Liz can do 50% with just one DM).
Kula, like K', has high priority juggle starters namely her Ex Ray Spin that can juggle from almost everywhere due to the horizontal carry. Another amazingly easy starter is d.B, s.B, Ex Ray Spin --> Since she has long chainable and cancelable d.Bs, factoring that she's a small character (easy to mistime a jump in against her and eat a d.B), her Ex Ray Spin is that much more of a threat.
Liz, besides of the BnB combo you see in every video she can: a) start a combo with her Ex counter and b) mix it up with a command throw starter, c) build meter like no other (qcf+P spam), d) cross you up with j.B or e) d.B, d.A starter and don't forget her f) Ex qcf P does some juicy guard crush damage. To add insult to injury, she can always Neomax you with a counter Neomax...talk about overkill. Short of a projectile, she has every tool in the standard KOF book.
Remember, most top tier characters don't possess one secret trick up their sleeve like Raiden, it's almost always an arsenal of tools that make them deadly.
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thats one of the big plus points about you kane, you actually see the obvious like i (and many othes) do. not to diss you other guys, but did you actually see vids of 13 play? how often did you even see kula use ice breath? i have never played this game (like many others), but some things are painfully obvious just from vids tbh. again dont take it like a diss, just stating the obvious if youve either seen vids or played the game.
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So Liz is basically OP because she can link almost anything into her Super for massive damage.
Raiden is OP because of Guard Crush his Drop Kick does, and the insane damage he can do off of a charged Drop Kick Combo with Super.
If my understanding is correct K' and Kula are OP because of their juggle ability. If that's so how would you nerf their juggles? Nerf the damage (a simple fix) or take away some of their links?
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Eh, I think I'll take a stab at Rebalancing Kula:
Could make it so dwn+B is only Drive cancellable. Without Drive, could link dwn+B -> dwn+A for normal cancels. Would at least make it SOMEWHAT challenging to her her best links, and would limit the amount of juggles after the EX Spin.
Weak Rayspin -> f+B should lead to a knockdown. f+D should lead to a SC-able juggle into Freeze Execution or Edge (Or Neomax), but not into anything else, outside HD mode. (HD would allow you to cancel into other moves earlier.)
Strong Rayspin -> f+B should only rejuggle high enough for a weak Crow Bites. Make it so Strong Crowbites is the only one that can be DC'd into EX Rayspin, leave EX Followups as strong as they are now (allowing similiar combos to what she has now.) Strong Ray.S f+D followup should lead to juggle on standing opponents, but not on aerial ones.
These changes could lead to:
A.) More limited Rayspin Combos, while still letting her get most of them with the use of EX meter. Non- EX combos should be more damaging when ended with DM (which requires drive cancel, if taken to the furthest hits).
B.) Perhaps more cancelling into EX Ice breath, causing her to automatically do combos that require more spacing, and have less high-flying juggle stuff. Should give her more reason to use the full range of her moves.
C.) She wouldn't be building as much meter in no-ex juggles, thus, she'd have to manage the building better.
I wouldn't wanna take away ALL the potential for her newer juggles you see (I.E, wouldn't wanna turn her exactly to 2K2 or XI Kula), so I think it's worth keeping the new juggles in EX, while adding more strategy to the strengths of her normal Rayspin (much like K' Triggers have different properties.)
And they DID take the time to give her 2 DMs, you'd think they'd actually... wanna make them both useful...
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not bad, cept for the first part? down B shouldn't take drive to cancel imo. rest is actually pretty good imo. B finisher leeds to knockdown (unless drive cancelled) and both rayspin and finisher together should make the same amount of bar and drive as it would do if you didnt use the finisher, thus halve the amount you gain now.
honestly, if i was @ snkp i would have been able to nerf the top 4 without raping them in a sinlge hour, thats how easy it is imo. wtf is up with snkp?
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I think SNKP will definitely rebalance some of the characters in the actual XIII cast, so I'm not that worried about them. I know they will, because they are most likely to adding new characters to the game with all this time. What I'm most worried is that any of the new characters will be either OP or really weak in fear of making them OP. If this happens, I really hope SNKP puts time to make a rebalance/bug-fix patch for the new characters a few months after.
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I think SNKP will definitely rebalance some of the characters in the actual XIII cast, so I'm not that worried about them. I know they will, because they are most likely to adding new characters to the game with all this time. What I'm most worried is that any of the new characters will be either OP or really weak in fear of making them OP. If this happens, I really hope SNKP puts time to make a rebalance/bug-fix patch for the new characters a few months after.
i dont think there are any weak characters in 13 thanx to the game system and thanx to things like DC and ex moves and such. you guys dont know how glad i was seeing these things in 13 (i wanted dc and ex moves in kof since kof 96 lol).
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Well since I don't see any Goro, Hwa or Vice in videos, I can assume they are weak or need some improvement.
But when I mentioned the problem with new characters balance, is based on the experience with SF4 and BlazBlue series. When they add new characters they do tend to be weak or overpowered in most cases. Is rare when you get a balanced fighter out of the new cast, specially if they are characters which didn't go through a loketest.
But I hope SNKP follows what ArcSystem is doing, in releasing several balance patches of the game to keep the game balanced. Unfortunately some of those changes tend to be unnecessary.
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personally id be more worried about bugs and glitches because of them.
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I think SNKP will definitely rebalance some of the characters in the actual XIII cast, so I'm not that worried about them. I know they will, because they are most likely to adding new characters to the game with all this time. What I'm most worried is that any of the new characters will be either OP or really weak in fear of making them OP. If this happens, I really hope SNKP puts time to make a rebalance/bug-fix patch for the new characters a few months after.
My worry is a repeat of the KOF XI console version.
That was basically a perfect console port. They added a rebalanced mode and seven extra characters. But because people didn't like all the changes they made, and some of the console-exclusive characters were over-powered, everyone just continued to play on arcade settings with arcade characters. A real waste, if you ask me. The arrange mode may have removed some of the craziness from XI, but I do think it was more balanced overall.
By the way, SNK's big Kula nerf for XI arrange was:
"The range on Crow Bites is decreased. Suffers from longer start-up and the opponent can now quick recover from it."
Which I wouldn't mind seeing in XIII's console version. If nothing else, her long crow bites (DC) EX ray spin combos should be corner-only.
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This question is coming from a somewhat ignorant perspective about KoFXIII's balance, so please bear with me?
What would be easier overall? Nerfing, Buffing, or is the best option a combination of both? Because if it is the latter, then maybe the conversation shouldn't be concentrated on just depowering the top tiers, but on how to powering up everyone who needs it?
Of course, I'm also not naive enough to believe that optimal (not perfect) balance is easy, but I think striving towards it would be a worthwhile experiment. Even if the game needs multiple patches.
Just my 22 cents. If I'm thinking about this in the wrong way, it'll be a great eye-opener to know why.
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This question is coming from a somewhat ignorant perspective about KoFXIII's balance, so please bear with me?
What would be easier overall? Nerfing, Buffing, or is the best option a combination of both? Because if it is the latter, then maybe the conversation shouldn't be concentrated on just depowering the top tiers, but on how to powering up everyone who needs it?
Of course, I'm also not naive enough to believe that optimal (not perfect) balance is easy, but I think striving towards it would be a worthwhile experiment. Even if the game needs multiple patches.
Just my 22 cents. If I'm thinking about this in the wrong way, it'll be a great eye-opener to know why.
Well there been both talks of Nerfing the top (Elizabeth, Raiden, K and Kula) just a notch to bring them from their S tier to A tier. Then we have also discussed buffing some characters damage or adding some extra moves to bring them up the tier list a bit (Vice, Goro, Terry, Clark and maybe others), some of these characters just need 1 more move added to their moveset to help them out better.
I might not be the best to talk about this, since I have yet to play the game, but this is what I have seen based on players feedbacks and videos.
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This question is coming from a somewhat ignorant perspective about KoFXIII's balance, so please bear with me?
What would be easier overall? Nerfing, Buffing, or is the best option a combination of both? Because if it is the latter, then maybe the conversation shouldn't be concentrated on just depowering the top tiers, but on how to powering up everyone who needs it?
Of course, I'm also not naive enough to believe that optimal (not perfect) balance is easy, but I think striving towards it would be a worthwhile experiment. Even if the game needs multiple patches.
Just my 22 cents. If I'm thinking about this in the wrong way, it'll be a great eye-opener to know why.
The easiest thing for SNK to do would be to do nothing. I'd be disappointed, and I think the game may suffer for it in the long-term, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. Recent Japanese matches featured some Goro and K' fights (i.e. bottom-tier vs. top-tier). While Goro was mostly out-matched, he was at least able to keep up with K'. In competent hands, every character has potential.
The next easiest thing would be to simply nerf the S+ tier: K' and Raiden. What would be even better would be if they could tone down the S- tier: Kula and Elizabeth. If they did that, in my opinion, it would be the most balanced KOF ever.
Personally, I'm against adding moves for the home version. Of course, some of the lower-tier characters could benefit from them, but even one move, if poorly balanced, can radically change the game (i.e. the drop kicks). I'd prefer the console version to be a refinement, not a reinvention.
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I think the best policy is to nerf the top tier
buff/nerf combo characters who aren't top tier, but have an over-reliance on really lame gimmicks (these chars are rare- SF4 Gen with his comboing and not a whole lot else might be a good example of such a character)
buff the lower-mid and below chars.
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The easiest thing for SNK to do would be to do nothing. I'd be disappointed, and I think the game may suffer for it in the long-term, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. Recent Japanese matches featured some Goro and K' fights (i.e. bottom-tier vs. top-tier). While Goro was mostly out-matched, he was at least able to keep up with K'. In competent hands, every character has potential.
As things stand, I'm more for this. Letting the players who use the cast versatily balance things out by exposing everyone's potential. My goal for instance is to take Hwa Jai up a few pegs; hopefully I can show some things that will make more people take notice.
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As I mentioned in another thread no balance should be made on K', liz, Kula etc cause other tiers will just rise. If they nerf K', Kula and Liz I am 100000% sure that people will start complaining about shen. The only one who needs to be fixed is raiden cause he is broken.
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you dont seem to understand jhon, shen, iori and kyo are ok as high tiers as they dont matter that much. k & them are too overpowered. theres a difference between high tier and just being plain wrong and too damn overpowered. andf thats what the top 4 represent, theyre just too damn much.
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I don't think they should do anything just yet. Sure, there are some really strong characters, but they're beatable, and I personally don't think that people are really willing to try and figure that out themselves... It's like the top tier characters in any other game, they might be damn near impossible to beat, but its not impossible to beat them...
Just wait out on the whole balancing act-- at least til after console release.
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K' and Raiden as characters are fine... just nerf drop kicks... Raiden doesn't even need drop kicks to be a good character... and for K' just make some of his moves a bit more unsafe... like Narrow Spike and f+D follow-up from Iron Trigger... so he at least thinks before throwing out moves...
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Nerf the fireball that K' has, reduce the priority. It's sort of stupid when you can combo out of 236C into 2B.
Raiden needs a dropkick and tackle nerf, along with his 6321463214 command grab, which can grab you out of absolutely ANYTHING on reaction.
And, reduce the generalized damage output for those two characters. They'd still be extremely high damage, and extremely flexible.
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...along with his 6321463214 command grab, which can grab you out of absolutely ANYTHING on reaction.
It's a standard "kof" grab DM, nothing wrong with it IMO.
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Nerf Raiden so his drop kick only does half the damage it normally does and make it so it needs to be EX'd to do a double Drop kick. That way I can do this to all the raiden players. Hell remove a hell of priority from Elizabeth and K' so I can really do this everywhere I go.
(http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f314/Somelazybum/LOL.jpg)
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...along with his 6321463214 command grab, which can grab you out of absolutely ANYTHING on reaction.
It's a standard "kof" grab DM, nothing wrong with it IMO.
indeed, no reason to take the kof out of kof, lol. try dp'ing, he wont grab you out of it.
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Well I still think Elizabeth needs nerfing, because is there any other DM in the game that can hit a character of the air when it's not a counter hit? I know if you hit someone with CD in the air, no DM will hit them unless it's a counter hit, yet Elizabeth DM can hit them even if it's not a Counter Hit.
So is it wrong of me to think that Elizabeth DM is the only DM in the game that can hit non Counter hit airborne opponents and that it should get fix?
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Liz is fine aside from the recovery time on some of her moves, which are a bit fast on whiff for my tastes. The juggle DM isn't bad, there are other DM's that can juggle you from any state too. Can't remember which ones, though.
Andy's 2D is really annoying though. Who else has a 2D anti-air / sweep / poking tool.
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ofcourse liz needs nerfing, no character does that much obscene damage without the use of bars. her dp move needs its prtoperties changed so you cant juggle after it unless you DC it or you happen to be in the corner.
another character that needs nerfing is kula, along with k and raiden obviously.
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Liz doesn't need a nerf, just a bit slower recovery on whiff. Vice has just as much juggle ability from her 41236[BD], and that leads to even bigger damage combos.
Kula isn't as good as Andy, like, at all. Shen is better than Kula, too. Kula's good, and an upper-mid tier, but definitely not top tier.
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you dont make sense, are you seriously comparing an ex move to a move that costs no dm bar at all? are you serious?
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So is it wrong of me to think that Elizabeth DM is the only DM in the game that can hit non Counter hit airborne opponents and that it should get fix?
I think it's the only DM in the game that can do it, yeah, but there are other "Anywhere juggles", all taking meter (which means they might as well be DMs..). Those being Hwa's EX dp+k Move (the repeatable Dragon Kick, if I remember right), and Vice's EX DeCide. And both those characters are ones that can do pretty crazy damage with those moves, when used right.
No other one is exactly as spammable as Liz's, though. I think it's be perfectly fine to make Elisabeth's Grand Rafale DM Anywhere juggle on EX DM, normal juggle for normal DM. This would nerf her Air reset game to using more meters, but still let the normal DM land off counter hit CDs and Etincelles.
Oh, and in discussion of balance changes and all, I had a thought. What if Terry's EX Burn Knuckle was given Guard Break properties? It'd give him a save way to get in, and while I don't think it should lead to a free combo close up (that might be too good), I could see it being used from far distance to guard crush & land a free combo, since he could recover right at the end of the move. Similiar to Shen's charge punch. That's give Terry much more ability to safely persue after blowbacks and power geysers / recovery rolls, which people like Andy and K' can already do, without using any meter.
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Anywhere juggles that take meter can be compared to a DM.
As for terry's knuckle guardbreaking, I say it should do a decent amount of guard-damage, but not enough to guardbreak. Shen's charge punch takes time to charge and can easily be punished by a bunch of things, and it can also be jumped on reaction.
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I think it's the only DM in the game that can do it, yeah, but there are other "Anywhere juggles", all taking meter (which means they might as well be DMs..). Those being Hwa's EX dp+k Move (the repeatable Dragon Kick, if I remember right), and Vice's EX DeCide. And both those characters are ones that can do pretty crazy damage with those moves, when used right.
Indeed, but can Vice and Hwa do as much damage as Liz with only using 1 Bar? I know they can do a lot of damage, but that requires at least 1 Drive and 1 more EX/DM attack. But maybe I'm wrong.
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You can still get lots of damage off j.CD with those characters via use of EX, hell, I think you can get more than just one DM because they both have followups after unlike Liz's DM.
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You can still get lots of damage off j.CD with those characters via use of EX, hell, I think you can get more than just one DM because they both have followups after unlike Liz's DM.
Interesting, I need to search more about it, I would have to look at Bala matches in Revelations to see how he uses Vice. Dunno to who to search for Hwa though.
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Doh, also forgot Takuma's EX Zanretsuken has "Anywhere Juggle" properties.
On the Terry Guard break thing, reason I'd think a full break with advantage on further range would be ok, is that loads of characters have safe advances in this game. Terry just seems to lack ways to either get in, or to open up opponents, so it'd be good to see him get something.
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isnt terrys crackshoot safe?
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Not against most command grabs, but for the most part yes. If you space it correctly you can do it against them too
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Not against most command grabs, but for the most part yes. If you space it correctly you can do it against them too
Only the weak one, and only at certain ranges though, right? Otherwise, he seems much more punishable than just about everyone else in this game. I've gotten the impression that weak Crack Shoot leaves him more open in XIII than in XII.
But hey, if Weak Crackshoot is a safe advancement move, that's great to hear ^_^ Most vids don't make it look as such, but they could just be not-so-great Terry's...
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Not against most command grabs, but for the most part yes. If you space it correctly you can do it against them too
Only the weak one, and only at certain ranges though, right? Otherwise, he seems much more punishable than just about everyone else in this game. I've gotten the impression that weak Crack Shoot leaves him more open in XIII than in XII.
But hey, if Weak Crackshoot is a safe advancement move, that's great to hear ^_^ Most vids don't make it look as such, but they could just be not-so-great Terry's...
yeah only A. version at certain distance is safe against grapplers, but if you are not a grappler it's safe and important for his offensive pressure.
You can even make A. Version burn knuckle safe, at the right distance. and everybody especially grapplers instantly wanna punish you. If you were charging during burn knuckle, you instantly input rising tackle to beat the grapple, or just jump straight up for a full combo :)!!
Yeah there was one recent Japanese terry that looked like he really knew his stuff, but that's pretty much it, one of those versus videos
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imo everything besides drop kicks are fine... i won't like to see top-tiers get nerfed... i rather see them buff the low-tiers... like 2K2:UM... that game's top-tiers are super strong... and while low-tiers aren't as strong, they still have options to counter top-tiers and do damage... while in XIII low-tier characters are given options due to EX moves... it's not enough when you have no meter... characters such as Mai and Clark and Ryo could have some of their moves back from previous versions...
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Yeah there was one recent Japanese terry that looked like he really knew his stuff, but that's pretty much it, one of those versus videos
Good info to know; I saw a JP video that had a Terry pressuring with (Close ;c -> CRACK SHOOT!) loops for guardbreaks and pressure right before you mentioned this, haha. Other than GCCD worries, I don't know why you wouldn't see this more often, on a majority of the cast...
imo everything besides drop kicks are fine... i won't like to see top-tiers get nerfed... i rather see them buff the low-tiers... like 2K2:UM...
This would be rather interesting to see. But I wonder how it'd work out? This is one of few cases were I might actually prefer the tops brought down... as bring everyone up to Raiden Dropkick kill level could really throw off the flow of the game. Everyone to K' level... hmmm. I dunno. I think She's a good base, really, lol. Solid options without meter, fantastic damage with any type of meter.
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Liz doesn't need a nerf, just a bit slower recovery on whiff. Vice has just as much juggle ability from her 41236[BD], and that leads to even bigger damage combos.
Anywhere juggles that take meter can be compared to a DM.
This is an interesting point and 4leaf was discussing to me about this point. One way of looking at it, is that Ex moves are completely new territory as far as KOF is concerned. They were obviously designed to extend combos and enhance the attributes of specials and allow for new combo creativity. Strictly speaking, Liz's DM is definitely an exception to the rule where normally DMs don't juggle in the manner she can do it outside of a "counter" message.
Personally, I feel that certain special moves are setup do specific tasks such as juggle/reset/throw; Chin's hcf+K, Kyo's qcf+K (although personally I feel it should only juggle on grounded opponents otherwise it's like a dp+P that juggles without a counter msg--but I disgress), Andy's Kuhaadan Break (hcf+K~BD). I feel that Vice's Ex DeCide was designed to do so and would fall under that category. I dunno if the developers wanted Liz to juggle like that, but I'm fairly confident they didn't intend a second reset juggle.
Another way of looking at it is that Ex = DMs now, and therefore it would put Vice in the same category as Liz. The reason why Vice can do more damage because Ex moves were setup that way, generally, less damaging than a DM alone but allows for further follow ups with [DC] etc...