Author Topic: Saiki (Pre-release)  (Read 23627 times)

Saitsuofleaves

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #75 on: November 25, 2011, 12:21:49 AM »
Alright, I hate to double post, but I think it's best to try and help out the wiki.  Let's post our thought on his pokes, his tools, his BnB confirms, his good Drive and HD combos and any general gameplay discussion in order to really fill it out when the mods feel it's time.

Of course, it will be a bit annoying for Saiki until we really know how to open him up...
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Kirah

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2011, 11:03:42 PM »
This s going to be a long post, but i've been labbing/running Saiki and i'm just going to share my thoughts and the technology i've found. Saiki in my opinion is definitely a jack of all trades, who's well versed in all forms of combat. His pressure strings aren't bad and his confirms are devastating when he's anchor so without further a do here we go. Saiki is also the safe jump king he has 3 separate safe jumps i've created and tested against everyone in the cast.

Safe Jump Option Select: 1 (Midscreen)

Setup(s):
1) 2B > 2A > 2C > 214BD > > 214D > [C] > 236236B > wait a second > SJ > J[1]D
2) JD > 5C > 214BD > > 214D > [C] > 236236B

Works On Everyone except Athena Shining Crystal Bit

Safe Jump Option select: 2 (Corner)

Setups(s):
JD > 5C > 214D > 5D > J.A > land > shorthop [9] > J[1]D

Works On:
o Kula  (Except EX DP)
o Kyo  (shorthop 8 to safe jump Kyo)
o Benimaru (Except EX DP)
x Ash
o Terry
o Andy
o Joe
o Ryo
o Robert
o Elisabeth
o King
o Yuri
o K' (shorthop J[1]A for safejump)
o Athena (Except Desperation Move)
o Kensou
o Leona
o Kim (Except EX DP)
o Hwa
o Ralf
o Iori

Safe Jump Option Select: 3 (Corner)

Setups(s):
1) 2A > 2A > 236AC > 214D > [D] > 4B > 623A > 236236A > 236C > 214D > [D] > j236236B > wait a second > SJ > J[1]D
2) JD > 5C > 236AC > 214D > [D] > 4B > 623A > 236236A > 236C > 214D > [D] > j236236B > wait a second > SJ > J[1]D

Works On:
o Kyo (Full Jump)
o Benimaru (J[1]A)
o Terry
o Andy
o Joe
o Ash (J[1]A)
o Saiki
o Ryo
o Robert (J[1]A)
o Iori (J[1}A)
o Elisabeth
o Kim (J[1]A)
o Hwa (J[1]A)
o King
o Yuri (J[1]A)
o K' (J[1]A)
o Kula (Except EX DP)
o Athena (Except DM)
o Kensou
o Ralf (J[1]A)
o Leona (J[1]A)

MBAA: Artifex Hyacinthinas
KOFXIII: Athena\ K' \ Leona or \Kyo

Saitsuofleaves

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #77 on: November 30, 2011, 07:34:46 AM »
Simple HD combo into NeoMax to fall back on in the corner.

C, [HD], C xx [DP+B [HDC] QCF+C, QCF+A] x3, QCFx2+B (or D, guess it doesn't matter) xx [MC] QCBHCF+AC

Does 923 Damage for 3 meters and is easy to remember.

Adding a hop.D at the beginning bumps it up to 947.

Hell, just without the Neomax, it does around 700 Damage for one meter and full Drive in the corner which is very nice.

EDIT:  Also, does anyone think we should honestly start moving to cl.D as our starter of choice?  Same damage and range as C, only it won't whiff on some crouchers.

EDIT:  Another thing, if people don't mind, I can try to do a writeup on Saiki, with his normals, specials and such on here so the mods can finally update the wiki.  If no one objects, I'll try to get it up tomorrow.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 07:44:10 AM by Saitsuofleaves »
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GuamoKun

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #78 on: November 30, 2011, 08:15:40 AM »
Simple HD combo into NeoMax to fall back on in the corner.

C, [HD], C xx [DP+B [HDC] QCF+C, QCF+A] x3, QCFx2+B (or D, guess it doesn't matter) xx [MC] QCBHCF+AC

Does 923 Damage for 3 meters and is easy to remember.

Adding a hop.D at the beginning bumps it up to 947.

Hell, just without the Neomax, it does around 700 Damage for one meter and full Drive in the corner which is very nice.

EDIT:  Also, does anyone think we should honestly start moving to cl.D as our starter of choice?  Same damage and range as C, only it won't whiff on some crouchers.

EDIT:  Another thing, if people don't mind, I can try to do a writeup on Saiki, with his normals, specials and such on here so the mods can finally update the wiki.  If no one objects, I'll try to get it up tomorrow.

I find it easier to use his C just because I'm used to it but his D seems better for the reasons you posted.

Hmm...If you are about...uh...two or three jumps away from the corner...you can do this to bring them to the corner...


C, [HD], C xx  QCB+D hold C, into [DP+B [HDC] QCF+C, QCF+A] x3, QCFx2+Dxx [MC] QCBHCF+AC

33 hits 940 damage.
EDIT: first time I said the loop had to be done 2 times. its 3.

A hop in D bumps it up to 970 HOLLA
« Last Edit: November 30, 2011, 08:27:25 AM by GuamoKun »

Saitsuofleaves

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #79 on: November 30, 2011, 08:25:23 AM »
Nice solid way to get them into the corner, good job.  Maybe we can do a little more to push them in if we're midscreen or further.  We should probably lay off on the HD combos if our backs are to the corner though.

And I will ask again, does anyone object to me making some kind of writeup for the thread, which people can of course comment on and edit if need be.
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GuamoKun

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #80 on: November 30, 2011, 08:32:58 AM »
Nice solid way to get them into the corner, good job.  Maybe we can do a little more to push them in if we're midscreen or further.  We should probably lay off on the HD combos if our backs are to the corner though.

And I will ask again, does anyone object to me making some kind of writeup for the thread, which people can of course comment on and edit if need be.

Yeah. I usually have Saiki on the 2nd position since he will most likely have his meter to fool around by then. His fireball hits crouching opponents, which is good since a lot of people tend to low poke characters in the corner, and as you know, his DP follow up switches place with the opponent.

I have no objections (hehehehe) to the writeup

Saitsuofleaves

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #81 on: November 30, 2011, 08:37:50 AM »
I have him at Stopgap as well, though I'm considering moving him to Anchor since my Hwa is nowhere near good enough to handle the show of being anchor, so I might move him to point and Kensou to stopgap.
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GuamoKun

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #82 on: November 30, 2011, 08:47:28 AM »
I have him at Stopgap as well, though I'm considering moving him to Anchor since my Hwa is nowhere near good enough to handle the show of being anchor, so I might move him to point and Kensou to stopgap.

Are you like a mirror version of me?!

I put Athena and Joe with Saiki...and you put Hwa and Kensou with yours!

I put Joe up front since I don't really rely on his long flashy combos since he has "hard" hitting simple no meter BnBs.

Saiki seems really good once he gets meter, and his damaging combos really only require HD stock more than anything else.

Saitsuofleaves

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #83 on: November 30, 2011, 08:48:55 PM »
Saiki Writeup:  Sp=Special Cancelable  DM=DM Cancelable CN: Command Normal Cancelable

s.A: 25 DMG/Sp/DM
Your typical stand jab.  Nothing special, half decent against hop in attempts which it will be used mainly for, but other than that, not that great.  Whiffs on crouchers as well.

s.B: 30 DMG/Sp/DM
Not a terrible move.  Decently quick, and it does hit low from a standing position which can be tricky for some to deal with especially after hop in pressure.  Range is bad though.  Use it every so often to keep your opponent honest while you're standing.

cl.C: 70 DMG/Sp/DM
For the time being, the main go to when canceling into Saiki's specials.  Also a somewhat solid reactionary anti-air, made better by being Special cancelable.  However, be very wary.  It can miss on some crouchers.  If you're trying to confirm into something big, it might be better to go with the more reliable cl.D as it won't miss on crouchers.

far.C: 70 DMG/Sp/DM
One of Saiki's better far standing pokes.  Being cancelable makes it all the more better and it's good enough to cancel into HD mode from.  It can be a slight bit slow, but it's not a terrible deal.  It might miss on some crouchers as well, more testing is needed, but do be a bit cautious with the move.  Also, keep noted, Saiki does move forward a bit while performing the move.  Now, if he finishes it without canceling into anything, he returns to his previous position.  However, if you whiff cancel it during active frames, Saiki stays forward.  Not a bad way to sneak up your positioning.

cl.D: 70 DMG/Sp/DM
A very solid move, a hard hitting move from standing that cancels into anything and hits low?  Pretty damn nice.  Also it does not whiff on crouchers making this a bit more reliable when going in for something big.  Be warned however, it has one weakness.  Where both versions of st.C are cancelable in which you do not have to worry as much about distance as both will cancel, far.D is NOT cancelable which means if you're off on your distance and you get far.D, you don't get anything afterwards.  Be careful about that.  Of course, if it's to go into HD mode, you can HD far.D as well so it doesn't matter as much.

far.D: 80 DMG
Very good poke for Saiki.  Great range, moves him forward and during active frames you can actually hop over some characters c.Bs which is very very nice indeed.  Good poke to use to keep the pressure on.  It's not cancelable by anything other than HD mode though, so it's something to keep in mind, however getting that long poke into HD if you can predict your opponent's patterns can be a great tool.

c.A: 25 DMG/Sp/DM
IMPO, not a very good move.  Meh range, hits mid, doesn't combo into anything that c.B doesn't.  At best it MIGHT be a frame faster starting up than c.B, but I'm not sure of that.  But it honestly doesn't really do anything of note that is special.  Beating hop-ins is what s.A does and does it better so...yeah...

c.B: 30 DMG/Sp/DM
Very good move.  Good range (though deceptive, it does not go as far as his foot does, but it still has good range), and cancelable, and it hits low obviously.  However...c.B only can combo into QCB+B and his DPs and QCF+AC.  Still solid, but you won't be getting his best stuff off it that often outside of burning meter.  However still a great poke to use.

c.C: 70 DMG/Sp/DM
Nice solid move too, mostly used for anti-airs however.  It's a bit slow, so it's best saved for either knowing a hop is coming, or reacting to slower jumps.  Being cancelable helps apply meaty pressure if you AA-d at the right distance.  All in all, not a bad move, but maybe not the go-to one you need, but Saiki's advantage is that he has a lot of normals to do different things, and this has its own niche.

c.D: 80 DMG/Sp/DM
Saiki's sweep, and it's a solid enough sweep.  Solid range, and you can cancel into Specials to keep safe.  It also moves him forward, but unlike his far.C, he maintains his forward position with or without the cancel so keep that in mind.

st.CD: 75 DMG/Sp/DM
Saiki's Standing Blowback.  You probably won't be using this move too much outside of Guard Cancels, it's a decent move though.  It's a bit telegraphed however.  Best used to whiff cancel forward like far.C since it goes the furthest distance of the three normals.

j.A: 45 DMG/CN
Surprisingly a decent hop in move.  A good downward angle and it's cancelable into his air Command Normals giving you a better confirm off of it, but only off of jumps and not hops.  Good to use it to mix things up since Saiki has good all around air normals.

j.B: 45 DMG
Probably your best air to air move, and it's still not a terrible way to jump in.  Has an amazing horizontal hitbox which, unlike his c.B, goes as far as the foot goes.  It can win a lot of air to air battles especially if done early.  It can also crossup standing opponents but it's a bit hard to combo after.  Be forewarned, this thing does misses on crouchers as Saiki hits the ground before he hits the opponent.  This can be bad AND good in a sense.  Bad because...well f us, we just missed, but it can be used for tricky high-low setups if your opponent gets antsy and goes to block high late.

j.C: 72 DMG/CN
If I had to pick one, this is probably the worst of Saiki's air normals, but it's not...terrible by any means it's just...it doesn't have the horizontal hitbox like j.B so it won't win as many air to airs, it misses on crouchers and doesn't have the vertical hitbox like j.A so being CN isn't as helpful either.  It does do the most damage though outside of his j.CD so...there's an upside...

j.D: 70 DMG
Probably your go to Aerial Normal.  It's certainly the best one you have for jumping in.  It has a damn good hitbox in both the vertical and horizontal which means jumping in from farther out isn't much of a problem and it can win its share of air to airs (though again, j.B is a lot safer to go with).  And it's a solid hop normal too.  Only downside is that you can't do it as late as some of his other normals while hopping, which is remedied by...you know, using j.A when you wanna do a hop normal late.  All and all, great move.

j.4B/j.6B: 50 DMG
Saiki's only command normals, and they happen to be in the air.  They're decent, they do change his trajectory in the air, so say you start your super jump and you see something you don't like, immediately j.4B to hit the brakes.  On the other hand, you jump and see you just don't got the distance, use j.6B to give yourself that extra little push.  The hitbox isn't great at times, and you can whiff (but unlike j.B, it can hit crouchers because they halt Saiki's momentum before touching the ground so it will stay active) depending on where you are.  Also...it has one bad downside.  Unlike all his other air normals where you can do a normal immediately after touching the ground, you have some recovery off of these moves and it's not instant, meaning it's a lot more of a pain to combo off of these normals which means you have to hit it deep and low and still hope.  It has more use as a movement option.

j.CD: 90 DMG/CN
A very tricky jumping blowback.  It's not unlike his standing one in terms of animation, but you're more likely to use this one raw.  It has a tricky hitbox which can do some nasty crossups if the opponent isn't careful.  It can seem like Saiki's already past you and won't do anything then BOOM, you just got hit by a j.CD and it has this weird vortex where the opponent goes where Saiki was arcing.  So if you hit them from behind, they'll go the way you're jumping and right past you.  So you can't use this to put people back in the corner if your back is to it but you can get someone coming out of it.  It's also CN so that helps a bit as well.

I'll do specials and DMs later, plus I want to see how I'm doing so far.
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VinnAleixoFM

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #84 on: November 30, 2011, 08:57:04 PM »
Satsui, can I translate this normals writeup to Portuguese?

Saitsuofleaves

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #85 on: November 30, 2011, 09:03:09 PM »
Satsui, can I translate this normals writeup to Portuguese?

It's Saitsu, and sure, knock yourself out.
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desmond_kof

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2011, 10:31:41 PM »
I'll do specials and DMs later, plus I want to see how I'm doing so far.

Thank you for your contribution! Myself and the others will be looking over this and will we get back to you.

I have also updated Saiki's wiki with some templates for we can start adding info: http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Saiki_%28XIII%29
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Saitsuofleaves

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Re: Saiki
« Reply #87 on: November 30, 2011, 11:34:49 PM »
Alright, on to Specials and DM.  DM=DM Cancelable  MC=Max Cancelable

Kiyoku no Tsuki = (qcf+P) - A Version is a projectile that goes across the screen at a leisurely pace.  C Version is a burst projectile at Saiki's head and a bit above.
(EX) = qcf+A+C is two quick multihitting bursts, one hitting low and mid, and the other mid and high, allowing for juggle opportunities afterward
- DM
- Hit Detection: Mid
- Damage: 60/70/181 (if all hits land on EX)

Saiki's Fireball and what allows him to dictate the pace of a match.  His A version is different than others, in the way that normally characters that have a Fireball have a slow and fast version and whatnot, Saiki only has the A version as the traditional fireball, so it runs at a speed that's inbetween.  Slow enough to run behind if done far enough away, but fast enough where it's hard to use for meaty pressure.  Still a solid fireball with a very good hitbox.  His C version is his anti-air, use it to catch people jumping in too often expecting a fireball.  They run into one of these, they stop getting too hoppy.  This is also used in a lot of his juggle and HD combos.

The EX version can be comboed from lights and can start a juggle, however it can be a bit of a pain to follow up midscreen.  As of now, you won't see it being used too much as his meter is better spent on other avenues.

Hanetsurube no Nata = (dp+k) - Both versions are relatively the same.  Both have basic Somersault/Flash Kick animations, the D Version goes a bit farther and has two hits.  D Version also has followups.
(EX) = dp+B+D- Seems to have faster startup than the two normal versions and around the same range as the D Version.  It also hits multiple times and has followups as well.
-
- Hit Detection: Mid
- Damage: 70/78(123)/141(208)
Kazahazushi no Tsuchi = (hold A/B/C/D) during D version or EX-Does a teleport followup that switches positions (unless directly in the corner) and the follow up is either a Blowback, or a barrage depending if you used the D or EX DP.

This is Saiki's DP, and a solid one at that.  While it doesn't seem to have the overwhelming invincibility of some other DP's (Kyo's for example), it makes up for it in utility.  A successful followup after his D or EX version will switch positions, making it perfect for putting opponents into the corner if they're getting greedy on you.  It also has some deceptive range so it does well for putting opponents on guard.  When following up, it's best to hold D, for two reasons.  One, you're already holding it for your D or EX DP, so it saves time.  And two, if you hold in say a punch button, and you do it too early it will end up Drive Canceling into his FBs, which isn't a bad thing when you actually want to, but you don't want to accidently cost yourself 50% Drive for a stupid mistake.

Hiori no Kusabi = (qcb+K) - Both versions have Saiki doing a Donkey Kick (think 3S/MvC3 Ryu).  B Version is much faster than D version, but D allows for a teleport afterwards.
(EX) = qcb+B+D - EX version is slightly faster than D it seems, and also causes a Wallbounce along with the same teleports afterwards.
-
- Hit Detection: Mid
- Damage: 60/60/120
Ura Shichiri = (hold A/B/C/D) during D version or EX-The Teleport after the kick, the teleport varies based on the button pushed.  They end up in the same spots as the raw teleports do, so use that to know which followup does which.

Saiki's Donkey Kick, a relatively decent move.  B Version is one of the few things Saiki can actually combo into from his c.Bs making it a quick and easy 2-1 or hitconfirm to push the opponent, however it doesn't do more than that.  His D version is nice because it allows for a Teleport however it only combos from his Heavies or certain juggles.  Best ones to use are C and D.  C is best used midscreen to follow your opponent and nail him with a DP, be forewarned.  Depending on the distance you hit the Donkey Kick, you might switch sides with your opponent forcing you to flip your inputs for your DP.  Be VERY cautious about that.  D Teleport is best in the corner, as you follow your opponent in the air, you can hit him with a j.4B and a followup DP or Super on the ground afterwards.

His EX has most of the same advantages and disadvantages as the D version, except you do not want to use this in the corner unless you like switching positions.  Again, I think his meter would be better served on other things like his DMs or his EX DP.

Shichiri Gake = (d, d + A/B/C/D) -

Just Saiki's basic Teleport.  Goes 4 positions.  A version makes Saiki travel a bit backwards.  B Version sends Saiki a bit forward.  C Version sends Saiki about a half screen forward.  D Version sends Saiki a bit forward and puts him in the air at jump height.  Personally...I don't think they're very good.  They have a lot of lag time towards them, are a bit telegraphed (even worse off because you can't attack right away out of them) and they're not that invincible.  Use VERY sparingly if at all.

Washiba Otoshi = (qcfx2+K) - Saiki does a DP with little horizontal movement and if it connects, follows the opponent for a barrage ending with a stomp
- Hit Detection: Mid
- Damage:210

Saiki's main go to DM to end his combos if not in general.  It starts up pretty quick making it even an effective anti-air.  Does solid enough damage and can keynote a lot of combos.  It does switch positions so keep that in mind when performing this in the corner.  It's also Max Cancelable on the stomp, so go there to bookend your HD combos with authority.

Yami Otoshi = (qcfx2+K) in the air - While Saiki is in the air and performs this, he teleports to the top of the screen and immediately comes straight down with a stomp.  If it connects, Saiki teleports down, rubs the opponent's face in the ground with his foot and then gives him a swift kick to the face.
- Hit Detection: Overhead
- Damage: 200

Saiki's air DM, you won't see it that often, and it's not that great.  It's an Overhead which is nice, but it's pretty damn telegraphed.  It also does less damage than the last DM, and it's more annoying to land.  It's also Max Cancelable on the last hit.  Best use for it is to finish off an HD combo in the corner if you're not 100% sure that it will kill, that way at the end of it you keep corner position.

Tokoyami no Fune = (qcfx2+P) - Saiki waves his hand twice and releases a Fireball that looks like his A version but hits 13 times, and the further it goes, the slower it becomes before fizzling out at full screen.
-
- Hit Detection: Mid
- Damage: 156

This is Saiki's trickiest DM and the one I believe has the most potential.  When released, it's on the screen for a while becoming very slow, and whether it hits or is blocked, it does 13 hits.  It can screw up opponent's jumping and rolling patterns, and god forbid if it touches them while grounded.  If it does, it keeps them there for a while hit or blocked giving you ample time to get in their face.  If it hit, you can combo after it, if blocked, you get a safe high/low of your choice.  This thing can be very deadly but be careful.  Don't do it in your opponent's face, it does not have that much of a hitbox in Saiki's immediate vicinity when released so you'll die...hard.  Don't use it too often or your opponent will get wise as well.  This thing is also good for juggle combos after mid air DPs so keep it in mind.

Kyoryu no Ori = (hcbx2+P) close - Saiki grabs the opponent and uses his energy to suck out his opponent's and regain vitality
(EX) = hcbx2+A/C - Same thing only more damage, and he drops his opponent harder afterwards
-
- Hit Detection: Mid/Close/Grab
- Damage:180/180/300

Saiki's Command Grab DM.  Not the greatest on damage, but it helps his options up close and it gives you some vitality back which is pretty sweet.  Use it every so often when you find an opening to keep your opponent honest.

Kasumi = qcb~hcfx2+A+C - Saiki transforms into his Boss Form and fills the screen with painful dark energy.
- Hit Detection: Mid
- Damage: 448

Saiki's NeoMax.  You're likely not gonna be using this raw but this thing will be on the end of all your HD combos, meter permitting.  It can also combo after every single one of his DMs (Most of them Max Canceled, but his FB one has to be juggled) making him a little more versatile within his HD combos.


« Last Edit: December 01, 2011, 05:02:06 AM by Saitsuofleaves »
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Re: Saiki
« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2011, 07:01:58 AM »
"Do not place so much importance on winning. The fight itself has value."