Author Topic: Chin Gentsai (Console)  (Read 66202 times)

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2012, 09:12:09 PM »

Had a quick look, here's some little stuff (sorry if its in there and I missed/misread it) you may or may not want to add/edit/consider:

- The move description for the drinking at the top of the page still has the arcade info (mentions decrease in defense for every drink taken).
- The Non-Drive combo section has a DC combo under 1 bar.
- May want to stress ducking as a very viable anti-air and defense tool. Its not even funny how many things you can duck under and punish, from normals to jumpins and specials. Even if they start jumping in deep or whatever you are still at an advantage since you can just go straight into a counter, or escape via HCF+K.
- HCF+D should be pointed to as the anti-mid fireball one. The B version isn't consistent, haven't tried it against all characters but it doesn't go under Athena's fireballs for sure.
- Wouldn't say low fireballs are a big problem for him, thanks to B counter and kick stance hopping. With kick stance hopping you don't even have to give up position to avoid fireballs since you can just hop into the corner and still avoid the fireball.
- Df+B is anti-low mashers. I noticed this during a match by mistake and went into practice to test. Set Iori to mash cr.Bs and Df+B beat them clean every time.
- Mention the  respectable amount of invincibility on EX QCB+P and it being Chin's best, and very safe, "get-off me" move. It also leaves the opponent in a free juggle state if done in the corner.
- B counter being free cancleable into anything after a fireball counter.
- The crazy amount of invincibility on QCB HCF+C super.
- In your analysis you mention Chin as having average damage output at best, I would have to disagree. His combos do too much damage for that to be true, especially for the amount of meter they use.

Thanks for the frame data, yeah I think I'm gonna start/stop abusing certain moves lol.

This is precisely the type of list I needed, I'll go fix the changes :)

-First one I can't fix, I think Nilcam or Des point it up there so they have to fix it.
-Removed the drive cancel combo, thanks!
-I actually do use that d x2+P as an anti air but the timing of it is pretty strict, the opponent has to land a non-deep hit--Don't forget low hits (certain jump attacks) still can hit him when he's in the crouching stance.  Usually, I just cancel into B counter unless I'm 100% certain I can duck it.  I'll add it in.
-I just tested it out.  I can't believe after 22 months of playing Chin, I never realized I've been using the hcf D everytime I go under fireballs, it must be a distance kinda thing and I never try for it when I'm close.  I cannot recall getting hit by it ever (doing hcf B) under a fireball--but you're right, for Athena's Psycho Ball at least, only the D version goes thru (and Ex of course).  Strange.
-It's true, df.B is invulnerable to lows but you're pretty vulnerable if they do block it and most ppl's d.Bs don't stay out there forever--have to be spamming it forever to get hit.  Also the df.B is now -3 vs -2 like console (meaning, Ryo's d.C, Andy's s.C, Iori's s.C, and Kyo's s.C can punish you.  Not to mention you can be normal thrown at that distance by everyone.  
-Same holds true for his kick stance, d x2+K, it's invulnerable to low fireballs but maybe because Reynald's just Reynald but once I hop over one or even ground fireballs, he'll dash in for some sort of punish and that's when I have to start guessing.  Also, just being in that state is kinda vulnerable for obvious reason.  I can't count how many times I wanted to cancel into hcf K from that stance I back step instead when I'm doing the back motion and thus eat a fireball or worse, a DM.  Just use it cautiously.
-Agreed, I cannot overstate how good his Ex qcb+P is.  Full invincibility, can be drivecanceled for a longer combo, and it's -1 on block.  Just don't get too spam happy otherwise a vertical jump can punish it easily as well.
-What do you mean about the B counter, it's been free cancelable into anything even if it's not a fireball.  So is the D counter.  The only thing that's changed it seems like you cannot keep canceling your cancel into qcb B--in the arcade you could deal with Joe's Ex hcf+P but just canceling qcb B into another qcb B etc.
-qcb~hcf C has a lot of invincibility but it's also super slow with 18 frames of startup minus the freeze time.  I have yet to successfully use it as a reversal on wake up but I guess I'll keep trying.
-Regarding the damage output, I wrote it a long time ago.  Since then, I'll revise it and say he does above average.

I'll make the changes in a bit.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 06:14:59 PM by Kane317 »

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2012, 03:01:14 PM »
-I just tested it out.  I can't believe after 22 months of playing Chin, I never realized I've been using the hcf D everytime I go under fireballs, it must be a distance kinda thing and I never try for it when I'm close.  I cannot recall getting hit by it ever (doing hcf B) under a fireball--but you're right, for Athena's Psycho Ball at least, only the D version goes thru (and Ex of course).  Strange.

Yeah it was the reason I wasn't confident with the move until now. I thought these were supposed to go under fireballs but got hit quite a few times. Figured maybe I was doing them too late and went into practice to confirm how late you could do the move and still go under the fireball. D went almost point blank range but B made me cry.

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-Same holds true for his kick stance, d x2+K, it's invulnerable to low fireballs but maybe because Reynald's just Reynald but once I hop over one or even ground fireballs, he'll dash in for some sort of punish and that's when I have to start guessing.  Also, just being in that state is kinda vulnerable for obvious reason.  I can't count how many times I wanted to cancel into hcf K from that stance I back step instead when I'm doing the back motion and thus eat a fireball or worse, a DM.  Just use it cautiously.

Plan to use them liberally, I want to let the opponent know that I have options and can and will use them. I duck a lot and the start jumping in deeper? Great, they become easier to hit out of the air. I kick stance hop and they rush in for pressure? Sweet, they stopped fireball whoring. Kick stance hop is way faster than jumping or rolling through a fireball. Chin has lots of tools and imo its important to throw them out on a regular basis so your opponent is cautious. Both stances are a flick away from being canceled into safety so I'm not too worried.

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-Agreed, I cannot overstate how good his Ex qcb+P is.  Full invincibility, can be drivecanceled for a longer combo, and it's -1 on block.  Just don't get too spam happy otherwise a vertical jump can punish it easily as well.

Yeah, vertical range is its only weakness.

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-What do you mean about the B counter, it's been free cancelable into anything even if it's not a fireball.  So is the D counter.  The only thing that's changed it seems like you cannot keep canceling your cancel into qcb B--in the arcade you could deal with Joe's Ex hcf+P but just canceling qcb B into another qcb B etc.

Just think maybe fireballs should be mentioned specifically. A lot of Shen's still don't cancel their fireball slaps into specials.

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-qcb~hcf C has a lot of invincibility but it's also super slow with 18 frames of startup minus the freeze time.  I have yet to successfully use it as a reversal on wake up but I guess I'll keep trying.

No man, forget wakeup. Offense is where its at. The moment they commit to pretty much anything (special, jump in, sweep etc) you do it and voila, instant pain. The amount and duration of invinicibilty this has is almost unfair.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 06:14:37 PM by Kane317 »

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2012, 06:13:50 PM »
Yeah it was the reason I wasn't confident with the move until now. I thought these were supposed to go under fireballs but got hit quite a few times. Figured maybe I was doing them too late and went into practice to confirm how late you could do the move and still go under the fireball. D went almost point blank range but B made me cry.

I was talking to CMD...and he said it depends on the fireball.  He said Chin's hcf B goes under Saiki's fireball just fine.

Yeah, vertical range is its only weakness.

It doesn't help that he takes a slight step forward when he does his Ex qcb P too.

Just think maybe fireballs should be mentioned specifically. A lot of Shen's still don't cancel their fireball slaps into specials.

Ok I'll add that in. EDIT: It's already been mentioned under the description of the move.


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-qcb~hcf C has a lot of invincibility but it's also super slow with 18 frames of startup minus the freeze time.  I have yet to successfully use it as a reversal on wake up but I guess I'll keep trying.

No man, forget wakeup. Offense is where its at. The moment they commit to pretty much anything (special, jump in, sweep etc) you do it and voila, instant pain. The amount and duration of invinicibilty this has is almost unfair.

18 startup frames is a long time, every time I've tried using it as an anti air or against grounded moves they tend to block it but I'll keep trying.

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2012, 06:48:53 PM »
I was talking to CMD...and he said it depends on the fireball.  He said Chin's hcf B goes under Saiki's fireball just fine.

Yeah thats why I was confused for a while since it seemed to be inconsistent during matches, thought it was mistiming on my end.

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18 startup frames is a long time, every time I've tried using it as an anti air or against grounded moves they tend to block it but I'll keep trying.

The key is to do it as you see the move coming or when its done, not to do it close to when it hits (like a B counter).

Window of invincibility is huge so it makes sense for it to have the slight flaw of being slow. Basically gotta make your opponent afraid to throw out anything with any form of delay.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 07:06:03 PM by Diavle »

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #64 on: April 06, 2012, 07:39:03 PM »
I was talking to CMD...and he said it depends on the fireball.  He said Chin's hcf B goes under Saiki's fireball just fine.

Yeah thats why I was confused for a while since it seemed to be inconsistent during matches, thought it was mistiming on my end.

So I just test it out:  Chin's hcf B can go under 4 of the characters, Andy's, Ash's, Saiki's and King's.  It cannot go under Robert's, Takuma's, Mature's, Mai's, K''s, Athena's and Kensou's.

Shame since hcf B is the better combo starter by far.

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18 startup frames is a long time, every time I've tried using it as an anti air or against grounded moves they tend to block it but I'll keep trying.

The key is to do it as you see the move coming or when its done, not to do it close to when it hits (like a B counter).

Window of invincibility is huge so it makes sense for it to have the slight flaw of being slow. Basically gotta make your opponent afraid to throw out anything with any form of delay.

I suppose if you have no drive, and only 2 supers it's worth going for it.  Think of it this way, if I have a drive, why risk -23 frames of recovery in the event it misses vs -1 frame if they block the Ex qcb P (and you can spam the drive cancel without wasting since it doesn't cancel on block).  I know there's invincibility but you're NOT going to get punished for the Ex qcb+P vs a chance of getting punished.  

UPDATE: Tried messing around with his qcb~hcf+C DM yesterday at #TheRunBack tourney.  It's basically fast enough to punish a standing strong hit (if you start at the same time) but definitely not fast enough against light hits and they can block it after pushing the light attack.

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2012, 11:05:51 PM »
So I just test it out:  Chin's hcf B can go under 4 of the characters, Andy's, Ash's, Saiki's and King's.  It cannot go under Robert's, Takuma's, Mature's, Mai's, K''s, Athena's and Kensou's.

Shame since hcf B is the better combo starter by far.

Thanks for the full confirmation.

No idea why SNK would do this, fireball avoidance is the whole point of the move. Not touching the B version outside of combos now.

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I suppose if you have no drive, and only 2 supers it's worth going for it.  Think of it this way, if I have a drive, why risk -23 frames of recovery in the event it misses vs -1 frame if they block the Ex qcb P (and you can spam the drive cancel without wasting since it doesn't cancel on block).  I know there's invincibility but you're NOT going to get punished for the Ex qcb+P vs a chance of getting punished.  

UPDATE: Tried messing around with his qcb~hcf+C DM yesterday at #TheRunBack tourney.  It's basically fast enough to punish a standing strong hit (if you start at the same time) but definitely not fast enough against light hits and they can block it after pushing the light attack.

Did they show you on stream? I watched the archive today in the morning and didn't see any match with you in it.

I too used the move extensively online yesterday and I'm definitely going to stick with it, I think its great. It hits hard and can punish a ton of things and worked wonderfully as an anti-air often. It has a better vertifcal hit box and the move connects as a counter most of the time. Like you said its not fast enough to punish light attacks but other than that there is so much to punish and fish for.

The advantages it has over EX QCB+P is range, a better hitbox and better damage. It can combo into the A version for major damage or you can juggle into a drive combo instead for even bigger damage.

So yeah, gonna use both these moves for different purposes. The damage potential and invincibility on this super shouldn't be ignored imo.

Now to get the damn drink to come out consistently lol, I always get the stupid drunken fist when I really just want a sip. I can do it fine in practice but in the heat of the match I often mess up.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 11:08:34 PM by Diavle »

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2012, 11:38:54 PM »
Did they show you on stream? I watched the archive today in the morning and didn't see any match with you in it.

Nah, usually what they do is a play a couple of winner's round, several losers then cut to Marvel.  When KOF reaches GF they'll put us back on but since we started late there were barely streamed any matches.  I'll try to get on stream for casuals next time.  

Chin continues to be a challenge to many players with several straights (OCV) on experienced and veterans (with one double straight in the top 12) and of course new players are completely baffled how to deal with him; easily my best Chin performance in awhile.

I too used the move extensively online yesterday and I'm definitely going to stick with it, I think its great. It hits hard and can punish a ton of things and worked wonderfully as an anti-air often. It has a better vertifcal hit box and the move connects as a counter most of the time. Like you said its not fast enough to punish light attacks but other than that there is so much to punish and fish for.

The advantages it has over EX QCB+P is range, a better hitbox and better damage. It can combo into the A version for major damage or you can juggle into a drive combo instead for even bigger damage.

So yeah, gonna use both these moves for different purposes. The damage potential and invincibility on this super shouldn't be ignored imo.

Can you give me specific examples / setups when you use the DM?  Maybe I just resort to dashing s.C/far C into combos instead of the DM in your scenarios....I wonder.

Now to get the damn drink to come out consistently lol, I always get the stupid drunken fist when I really just want a sip. I can do it fine in practice but in the heat of the match I often mess up.

How are you performing the drink?   About 2 months into Arcade XIII I conditioned myself do the drink as hcf~b+P and I haven't gotten the overlaps since for obvious reasons.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 11:44:45 PM by Kane317 »

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2012, 01:34:14 AM »
Nah, usually what they do is a play a couple of winner's round, several losers then cut to Marvel.  When KOF reaches GF they'll put us back on but since we started late there were barely streamed any matches.  I'll try to get on stream for casuals next time.  

Chin continues to be a challenge to many players with several straights (OCV) on experienced and veterans (with one double straight in the top 12) and of course new players are completely baffled how to deal with him; easily my best Chin performance in awhile.

Great, and I'll never get to see it. At least we're getting some stream time I guess, hopefully more will be given as time goes on.

Yeah Chin is just one of those characters, you never know how well or effective he might become just in the heat of the moment. I've had lots of experienced players look very lost or start doing really stupid stuff in his presence.

Still, just about no one seems to take him up. I'm pretty much the only Chin user in my online region. Can't say I mind hehe.

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Can you give me specific examples / setups when you use the DM?  Maybe I just resort to dashing s.C/far C into combos instead of the DM in your scenarios....I wonder.

I'm not really using it as a poke or combo starting tool like you would with sC, more like a forward moving invincible wall to stuff just about anything on reaction and/or anticipation. So stuff like if you see a sweep coming or a hopping or jumping jCD or another normal or a special move that doesn't end in an instant like a light attack. Like if you have a K' player spamming the fireball move in your face or a character space or two away. It goes through all that. Sort of like the B Counter but moving forward instead of backward with complete invincibility instead of speed. Just like a Counter you can stick it in between stuff (like between kicks during Kyo's QCF+K).


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How are you performing the drink?   About 2 months into Arcade XIII I conditioned myself do the drink as hcf~b+P and I haven't gotten the overlaps since for obvious reasons.

I'll try that. I usually do it B, DB, D, DB.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 01:41:54 AM by Diavle »

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #68 on: April 25, 2012, 12:08:06 PM »
Got side tracked practicing the s.B, QP, far C, s.C/far C starter and finally found a "practical" (no jump in), 3 stock HD, anywhere:

s.C, far D, HD, s.C, far D, (qcb+A, [HC] hcf+D)x2, df.B, qcb+C [HC] hcf+D, qcb+A,[HC] hcf+D, df.B, hcf+B df B, qcb A, [HC] qcf x2+BD NM, hcf B, df B~(slight delay) B, qcf x2+P DM = 1001dmg

It's been updated in the wiki already, yay me.


LazieFreddy

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #69 on: April 25, 2012, 01:09:31 PM »
FYI, the combos in the SNK chin video are posted on the offical blog.  It might be more convenient for some of us when practicing:

http://game.snkplaymore.co.jp/official/kof-xiii/blog/

①2B->22P•P->22K•C->3B->214A->C

②2B->22P•P->22K•C->41236B+D->41236B->214C->DC 41236D->3B->41236B->3B•B->C

③通常投げ->214A->DC 41236B->214A+C->41236B->3B•B->C

④2B->22P•P->22K•C->41236B+D->41236B->3B+D->41236D->3B•B->C

⑤2B->22P•P->22K•C->BC->C->【214A->HC 41236D】×2->3B->低空214A->HC 41236D->214A->HC 41236B->214A->HC 41236D->214A->HC 236236B+D->41236B->3B->B•B->C

⑥2B->22P•P->22K•C->BC->C->22K•C->41236B+D->41236B->【214C->HC 41236D->3B->41236B】×3->214C->HC 236236B+D->41236B->3B->B•B->C

yamazaky96

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2012, 09:03:36 AM »
hi guys
I just started playing chin yesterday
i got to do this combo:
 j.  ;c > ;c >  [;b ;c ]>  ;c >  ;df  ;b >  ;dn  ;db  ;bk  ;a > DC  ;bk  ;db  ;dn  ;df  ;fd  ;d >  ;df  ;b >  ;b >  ;dn  ;db  ;bk  ;a > DC ;bk  ;db  ;dn  ;df  ;fd  ;b >  DC ;dn  ;db  ;bk  ;c >  DC ;bk  ;db  ;dn  ;df  ;fd  ;d >   ;df  ;b >  ;df  ;b;df  ;b>  ;b >  DC ;dn ;df ;fd ;dn ;df ;fd ;b ;d Hold  ;uf>  ;dn ;db ;bk ;db ;dn ;df ;fd  ;a
1040 dmage at 2 drinks, full HD and 3 stocks

I ve been reading and learning from this thread and will work on my chin to be better later when I reach home
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 09:05:58 AM by yamazaky96 »

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Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2012, 02:19:21 AM »
Vegas showed up last night at the TheRunBack and I got humbled by a Chin player and I took some notes about a particular fancy reset setup in the corner:

After a df.B into s.A/s.C reset he would hop cancel (d x2+K -->hop) and the timing is so perfect as you'll be coming down on them as they land first so that you can do a deep j.B for a safejump (needs testing) or land and throw into the corner for a combo or of course d.B into Quickie Punches...

It's one of those need to see things to understand how good the mixup is.

Another thing I learned the hard way is on wakeup, Chin's Ex qcb P will lose to Chin's Ex hcf K.  We were both point blank to each other, I was waking up, I did the Ex qcb P which has instant invincibility and it lost Chin's Ex hcf K which is only invincible once he starts rolling which left me baffled and consequently eliminated me out of the tournament because of it.

Further testing revealed that as long as Ex hcf K is done ever so slightly earlier than the Ex qcb P, he'll start rolling in time before the Ex qcb P hits.  Ex qcb P has a 7F startup.  You can however time it so that that Ex qcb P hits the Ex hcf K before he starts rolling.

LazieFreddy

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2012, 04:33:01 AM »
How many reps of df.B do you do before doing a st.C reset hop cancel?  I messed around with it for a bit and I couldn't get it to safe jump against EX Iori's DP C.


Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2012, 08:20:02 AM »
How many reps of df.B do you do before doing a st.C reset hop cancel?  I messed around with it for a bit and I couldn't get it to safe jump against EX Iori's DP C.

I did say that needed testing =).  It just looked like a deep as hell hit when I saw it, I could be wrong.

LazieFreddy

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2012, 01:59:57 PM »
It's very possible that I'm not doing it correctly.  The concept is sound, and we just need to find out the exact timing of this to do a safe jump.