Author Topic: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications  (Read 8836 times)

davidkong07

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Hello all! So, for some time now a few players have known about grab invincibility which occurs after block stun. For those of you who are unfamiliar, here is an explanation:

Whenever you block an attack, you are put into frames of "block stun". Obviously, you cannot be grabbed during block stun. The odd thing is, in KoFXIII, characters have a few frames of grab invincibility, even after block stun frames have finished. That's right, you have a few frames of grab invincibility, even once your character has recovered from block stun and is in a NEUTRAL STATE.  In KoFXIII, the annoying part is that this grab invincibility lasts for DIFFERENT PERIODS OF TIME amongst different characters.

I decided to conduct some testing with Vice's string, D -> Fwd. A -> A version Splash, which is an air to ground grab. I came up with some interesting results. The splash whiffs on about half of the cast, but connects on the other half. This means that the group that avoided the splash have relatively longer block stun induced grab invincibility than the group that got grabbed. Through this testing, I was able to separate the cast into two groups: Group A, which didn't get grabbed, and Group B, which got grabbed. These were the results:


Group A (longer grab invincibility):
Kyo, EX Kyo, Terry, Billy, Ash, Saiki, Claw Iori, Flame Iori, Elisabeth, Duo Lon, Hwa Jai, Mai, K', Kula, Maxima, Kensou

Group B (shorter grab invincibility):
Daimon, Andy, Benimaru, Joe, Ryo, Robert, Takuma, Mr. Karate, Mature, Vice, Shen, Kim, Raiden, King, Yuri, Ralf, Clark, Leona

The special cases in this testing were Chin and Athena. Chin and Athena were able to be grabbed with Vice's string mid-screen, but never got grabbed in the corner. I have no clue why this happened, or what implications being in the corner have for block stun induced grab invincibility.

 Because of the nature of my testing, I cannot conclusively say any frame counts regarding the two groups. The different number of frames of invincibility between them might be large or small, and there probably are even frame differences within the groups themselves. What I can say conclusively is:

EVERY CHARACTER IN GROUP "A" HAS LONGER BLOCK STUN INDUCED GRAB INVINCIBILITY THAN EVERY CHARACTER IN GROUP "B", AT LEAST BY 1 FRAME.

Now, the implications here may be somewhat significant or not, depending on your perspective. What this means is that your tick throw or tick command throw setups which work against characters in group B may not work against characters in Group A, especially if they are very frame precise. In a nutsell, the characters in Group A may be harder to tick throw than the characters in Group B. As for Chin and Athena, I dunno!!!

Anyways, I hope this information is somewhat helpful! Peace!



UPDATE: Here is some additional info about throw invincibility from arcadia magazine, translated by laziefreddy:

- Jump weak attacks (group A, column 1 and 2), Stand Weak attacks (group B, column 3 and 4), strong attacks (column 5 and 6) induce different lengths of throw invincibility
- Exceptions to the above rule are Mature, Raiden, Ryo, Yuri, Maxima's standing weak attacks, which below to group A
- The window of throw invincibility could be shortened if you press a button (column 1, 3, 5 details the minimum length)
- Throw invincible frames during wake up= 11
- Throw invincible frames after air reset = 6
- Throw invincible frames during quick rise = 0
- Normal throws have 1 frame start up
- You cannot do a reversal normal throw on wake up, but it is possible during a quick rise
- The game has a 4 frame window for "simultaneous inputs."  e.g. if you press C, then input forward within the next 4 frames, a throw is registered.  However, some arcade cabinets may have set this to 2 frames instead.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 09:44:03 PM by davidkong07 »
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LouisCipher

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2012, 03:47:13 AM »
Played a Yuri last night and at one point she ran in cr B, then ran in and Grab (not EX) I thought the Blockstun would prevent being grabbed? Because trying to tick throw off of lights is pretty much impossible unless you wait over a second and try to grab.
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davidkong07

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2012, 03:51:53 AM »
light attacks induce less blockstun than heavy attacks, so it would actually be easier to tick throw off of them. also, the point of this is to say that it doesn't matter who is on the offense, the tick throw timing depends on the character on the defense.
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Killey

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2012, 08:43:41 PM »
Good find and will be particularly helpful for characters with a command grab. I noticed Benimaru wasn't on the list. Was that just a miss or is he a special case.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 08:46:07 PM by Killey »

davidkong07

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2012, 10:02:34 PM »
oh wow, my bad! thanks for pointing that out! Benimaru is in group B
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Ash

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2012, 06:23:01 PM »
A bunch of us in socal knew this since october/november of 2010. It was written in an arcadia magazine released during that time. It's in japanese, but here's it is for your viewing pleasure. Please note that specifically Kyo and Athena have the longest overall throw invincibility.

http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg

dicky

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2012, 07:22:52 PM »
^^^^ crazy moon speak! I think we'll just have to trust you on this one.
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Reiki.Kito

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2012, 09:29:13 PM »
Hmmm...I'll take that, thank you! This could be useful in figuring out tick throw set-ups.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 09:59:21 PM by Reiki.Kito »

Terrastorm

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2012, 11:22:50 PM »
A bunch of us in socal knew this since october/november of 2010. It was written in an arcadia magazine released during that time. It's in japanese, but here's it is for your viewing pleasure. Please note that specifically Kyo and Athena have the longest overall throw invincibility.

http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg
I assume it is the last column? What do the the others say?

davidkong07

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2012, 09:38:20 AM »
A bunch of us in socal knew this since october/november of 2010. It was written in an arcadia magazine released during that time. It's in japanese, but here's it is for your viewing pleasure. Please note that specifically Kyo and Athena have the longest overall throw invincibility.

http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg

hey duc,

so upon reading this i decided to test athena further. it turns out that, like, chin, she is also able to be grabbed by vice's string midscreen but not in the corner. do you have any idea what this could mean about being in the corner and grab invincibility? i'm pretty stumped.

the OP has been edited to reflect this.
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LazieFreddy

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2012, 09:50:06 AM »
A bunch of us in socal knew this since october/november of 2010. It was written in an arcadia magazine released during that time. It's in japanese, but here's it is for your viewing pleasure. Please note that specifically Kyo and Athena have the longest overall throw invincibility.

http://i.imgur.com/yumRp.jpg

Thanks for the article.  It's actually got a few other interesting things about throws mentioned in it.  I'll see if I could have it translated when I have time.

Update:  Here's some key notes from the article

- Jump weak attacks (group A, column 1 and 2), Stand Weak attacks (group B, column 3 and 4), strong attacks (column 5 and 6) induce different lengths of throw invincibility
- Exceptions to the above rule are Mature, Raiden, Ryo, Yuri, Maxima's standing weak attacks, which below to group A
- The window of throw invincibility could be shortened if you press a button (column 1, 3, 5 details the minimum length)
- Throw invincible frames during wake up= 11
- Throw invincible frames after air reset = 6
- Throw invincible frames during quick rise = 0
- Normal throws have 1 frame start up
- You cannot do a reversal normal throw on wake up, but it is possible during a quick rise
- The game has a 4 frame window for "simultaneous inputs."  e.g. if you press C, then input forward within the next 4 frames, a throw is registered.  However, some arcade cabinets may have set this to 2 frames instead.

My Japanese is kinda rusty, so I cannot guarantee 100% accuracy.  I also wonder if the data presented there have changed in the console version, especially since jump attacks have shorter hit stun now.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 05:57:12 AM by LazieFreddy »

Reiki.Kito

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2012, 11:24:41 PM »
That's actually very useful information! Thank you very much!

davidkong07

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 10:03:49 AM »
yo laziefreddy, that's awesome! thank you for the translation, i'll update the OP with that info
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Killey

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2012, 05:56:37 PM »
I'm confused about the part where normal throws have a 1 frame start up because that should mean more moves would be punishable on block. For example, Kyo's upkicks (QCF+K) is only punishable by a 1 frame command grab. Wouldn't normal throws being 1f mean that you could throw Kyo after upkicks?

Reiki.Kito

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Re: Variable Block Stun Induced Grab Invincibility, Tiers and Implications
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2012, 06:07:34 PM »
I'm confused about the part where normal throws have a 1 frame start up because that should mean more moves would be punishable on block. For example, Kyo's upkicks (QCF+K) is only punishable by a 1 frame command grab. Wouldn't normal throws being 1f mean that you could throw Kyo after upkicks?

The B version might cause more blockstun than recovery which is what might make it difficult for you to do so. There's also the matter of delay in the input. I believe when it means it has 1 frame start-up that it's actually 2. 1 frame for the animation of a st.C or st.D to come out and the 2nd frame is when it's active. If you slow down the animation frame by frame, you see that the character tries to do a st.C before attempting to throw.

Either way it goes, qcb+B is the one that's relatively safe on block. QCB+D is -3 and can be punished with a throw pretty easy without reversal.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 06:09:38 PM by Reiki.Kito »