Author Topic: Claw vs Flame!  (Read 5351 times)

desmond_kof

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Claw vs Flame!
« on: June 27, 2012, 08:05:14 PM »
All the Claw vs Flame Iori comparisons go here.

-Kane317

---

Speaking of Flame Iori, anyone wanna brainstorm on comparing him to Claw?

Firstly, here are some ideas on Claw Iori's pros and cons which need to be filled out here: http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Iori_Yagami_(XIII)#Gameplay_Overview

(if anyone agrees or disagrees or has anything to add, please share)

Pros:

* Good damage output

* Air and ground resets in the corner and midscreen

* Good frame traps (mostly with his qcb+B)

* Great offensive pressure

* Great air and ground normals

Cons

* Not many meterless tools (as Matt expressed)

* Not many hard knockdown opportunities

* Lacking zoning/long range game


Now, when people ask me to compare the two Iori's I usually

* Flame Iori has the stronger oki game (because of his hard knockdown combos from rekkas, etc)

* Flame Iori can zone better with his qcf+P

* Claw Iori has more damaging HD combos

* Claw Iori has better resets from his command throw and corner resets with his bnb into qcb+C (or A, I don't remember) then st.A for the reset, j.C or s.B, etc.

Btw, which Iori you guys feel has the best standing overhead? Claw's df+C or Flame's f+B?

Who has the better dp? Better reversals?

Anyone else have anything to add? This is all my opinion and perspective, it would be good to hear some other ones.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 04:32:45 AM by Kane317 »
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JennyCage

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Re: Iori Yagami (Console)
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2012, 03:59:45 PM »
Speaking of Flame Iori, anyone wanna brainstorm on comparing him to Claw?

Your opinions are pretty much spot on I think.  Flame definitely has a lot more hard knockdowns and mixup options.  He's also better equipped for dealing with zoners since he can counter-zone.  I think his reversal is much better than Claw's which has weird hitbox properties and often misses even when the animation visually hits.  Flame's has better vertical coverage.

Claw definitely has the superior overhead and he can 100% off 4 bars.  I've heard some people claim 3 but I haven't seen it for myself, but I defintiely know 4.  I wrestle in my head about which version is better.  I'm a Claw player so I might be biased, but I'm leaning toward EX being the overall better character.  He can deal with more situations easier than Claw while having more options to fuck with the opponent due to all the hard knockdowns.  He has a comboable command grab, an overhead, a better reversal, fireballs, a command crossup and crossups with j.C.  Basically all that Claw has and more, except for resets and a slower overhead.  Claw definitely wins the reset battle.  The question is what's more valuable - the ability to reset or the ability to land a hard knockdown after every BnB?  I think you have more time to think about what you'll be mixed up with after a hard knockdown than a reset, so maybe Claw wins that battle?  It's so hard to decide which version is "better."

I think it really boils down to how bad you need a better reversal and zoning options, and what position you want to play.  Flame is a better point, Claw is a better anchor... but Claw has a harder time vs zoners.  I don't know.  Jeez, it's hard to say!
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desmond_kof

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Re: Iori Yagami (Console)
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 04:38:22 AM »
Okay reading back and asking around in the chat...

Better reversals or dp? Flame Iori

Better zoning? Flame Iori

Better corner pressure? Claw Iori

Better frame traps? Claw Iori (Kane mentioned and thought Flames was better though http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1664.msg56593#msg56593)

Better resets and mixups? Claw Iori

Better standing overhead? Claw Iori

Better anchor? Claw Iori

Better point character? Flame Iori

Who do you guys think has the better NeoMax? I personally think Claw's wins hands down. You can use it as a risky anti-air, it has more chance of hitting in an HD combo (Flame's can miss sometimes due to a glitch), and has better damage?

Any thoughts on this? Let me know before I add some stuff to their wiki's (anyone wanna help me as well?)
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JennyCage

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Re: Iori Yagami (Console)
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 04:56:29 AM »
Don't forget better (or rather more frequent) oki = Flame Iori.

I think Claw's Neomax is better for the same reason.  It can also be used as a full invulnerability move in those situations where you'll die to 1 chip and they fireball you on wakeup.  It's a huge waste of meter of course but it's better than straight up dying if he's your last character which is kind of cool.
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Bloom of the Wolf

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Re: Iori Yagami (Console)
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2012, 09:37:52 AM »
Claw and ex iori have the same damage on their neomax's. Maximum 480 and 240 at minimum scaling. Claw however gets less if the conditions for making the red and black shadow effect on the screen occur are not met. Also flame iori's neomax can be used to punish some projectiles and other similar moves such as kula's ice breath from half screen without having to worry about getting less than the full damage (as in the case of using claw's as an anti-air). As far as the loss of autotarget glitch on the neomax, in my experience, you really have to screw up your maxcancel, doing it ridiculously late, to actually trigger the glitch. With things like advanced input in the game, this should never be the case. Also some testing with the maxcancel has had some interesting results but I'll post those up when I have more time to fully explore it and will do so in the appropriate section.

Also I have to agree with Kane in that I believe honoo has better frame traps. Some of his normals have better frame advantage and even the push back on block is slightly less for simple strings like Cl.5a (slight delay) Cl.5b 6a/whatever and he has in his rekkas a much better (opinionated) and further reaching confirm into a basic bnb from, as an example Max range 2a>6a, than claw iori's shougetsu or akegarasu, as the former is somewhat challenged in terms of comboing from normals that hit at a distance and the latter gets no knockdown and doesn't really lead to much damage unless drive cancelled into EX command grab or something that would allow for a decent damaging confirm.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 09:42:16 AM by Bloom of the Wolf »

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Re: Iori Yagami (Console)
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 08:38:37 AM »
Definitely prefer Claw.

The real struggle is reconciling his neutral game problems both on offence and d.

Wishing he still had invincibility on qcb+AC for changing the momentum.

Otherwise, he's so damn fun to play.


Crimson_King15

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Re: Iori Yagami (Console)
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2012, 03:12:35 PM »
Quote
Claw and ex iori have the same damage on their neomax's. Maximum 480 and 240 at minimum scaling. Claw however gets less if the conditions for making the red and black shadow effect on the screen occur are not met. Also flame iori's neomax can be used to punish some projectiles and other similar moves such as kula's ice breath from half screen without having to worry about getting less than the full damage (as in the case of using claw's as an anti-air).
Both neo maxes can be used to punish projectiles and if the fireball's speed is fast Iori's Invincibility will make the fireball go through him, and he will still get a full 360-480 depending on where you are. Just because you AA hit someone jumping doesn't mean you will get the lessened version there are multiple times I've AA'd with it and received the max 480. In fact, only time you normally don't is when you are anti airing from afar. Another thing is with Iori's neo max you can end up hitting people's trip guard frames or just out right AAing them  
Quote
As far as the loss of autotarget glitch on the neomax, in my experience, you really have to screw up your maxcancel, doing it ridiculously late, to actually trigger the glitch.
This isn't a glitch. This happens with multiple neo maxes when you cancel into them too early or too late Like with robert. With things like advanced input in the game, this should never be the case. Also some testing with the maxcancel has had some interesting results but I'll post those up when I have more time to fully explore it and will do so in the appropriate section.

Quote
Also I have to agree with Kane in that I believe honoo has better frame traps. Some of his normals have better frame advantage and even the push back on block is slightly less for simple strings like Cl.5a (slight delay) Cl.5b 6a/whatever and he has in his rekkas a much better (opinionated) and further reaching confirm into a basic bnb from, as an example Max range 2a>6a, than claw iori's shougetsu or akegarasu, as the former is somewhat challenged in terms of comboing from normals that hit at a distance and the latter gets no knockdown and doesn't really lead to much damage unless drive cancelled into EX command grab or something that would allow for a decent damaging confirm.

Claw Iori's Up close game is far better than Flame's for multiple reasons.

1: Fr.St.B it a lot easier to use for Claw to out footsie/Poke. Reason being is he has no alternative input for that button. If you are trying to rush your way in with Flame it is very very easy to come out with an overhead instead of the input you want which is Dash> far St.b. Also it's easier to rush into Cl.St.B range and use it as soon as you footsie/rush your way into the Cl range. You don' have to Start stop start stop or already be in the range for close st.b for you to use it effectively.

2nd: While Claw doesn't get Get a hard KD off his combos into Akegarasu what he does get is ALOT of mix ups and pressure. He can go into command grab, Cl.St.b for a low mix up, Command grab if your opponent is a blocker, St b for that godlike frame advantage, Overhead, Yuri Ori  and more.

There is no doubt that's Flame has better spacial control and range on his combos. But Up Close Claw far outshines his counter part. Even a few of Claw Iori's close normals have better frame advantage than flames for that very reason. The most noticable is Cl.st.c Also Claw Iori's Maiden masher being able to combo directly off a C Shogetsu is beautiful for damage and yomi. In the corner Iori's Ex Shogetsu is capable of netting him huge damage as you can loop 2 A shogetsus after and he can go into maiden masher or continue the combo with an A dp> D Akegarasu and loop 2 more A shogetsus after into a maiden masher or EX maiden masher.
So the combo looks like
Cl.c>F+A> Qcb+PP> Qcb+A> Qcb+A> DP+A> (DC) Qcb+D>Qcb+A> Qcb+A> EX/Maiden masher= 630 damage if using EX maiden masher
Regular maiden masher= 584
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 09:21:03 PM by Crimson_King15 »

Bloom of the Wolf

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Re: Iori Yagami (Console)
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2012, 12:53:56 AM »
...wow I don't even know where to start.... mostly because you made it extremely tedious to address your post piece by piece by using the quoting system poorly...


I guess for starters, I would have to ask; who are you playing that is throwing projectiles within the range that they can be neomaxed? Do they know the zoner - claw iori match up? Also considering you said that the fireballs would go through you while you tagged them in recovery with the neomax, i would hazard a guess at the probability that you didn't react to a fireball and run into range of yatagarasu, buffer the motion and watch the claw sparks fly but rather that you either successfully yomi'd a button or that the opponent made some very grave mistakes in their spacing. More importantly, the fact that yatagarasu CAN get full damage when used is raw isn't the point. Rather it's the opposite, while a bit less than 400 is nothing to sneeze at, ex iori will ALWAYS get 480 for landing a raw neomax and the ability to use it reaction to certain moves at a much greater range than claw's (depending on the match up of course, characters like Athena and king are much more difficult to punish for their fireballs at half screen if your reactions aren't on point) makes homurahotogi a much more viable raw neomax. Especially when KOF is full of (much harder to react to when being pressure) hops and claw's neomax is only about as fast one of ex iori's non-ex dps, having similar pitfalls when not perfectly reacting to or reading a hop, simply put you react a second too late and you get accidentally safejumped and die.


And SNKPLAYMORE already explained that Ex iori's loss of auto-target on his neomax when maxcancelling IS in fact a glitch. I don't really know how to address the rest of what you wrote because it looks like you accidentally quoted the rest of what I wrote but put it in the wrong place.



Claw iori's close up game is not better than ex's in any aspect outside of the damage he gets for simply opening the opponent up "for multiple reasons".

1: your problems regarding inputs do not reflect a weakness in the character. I have no difficulty with dashing st.A's and St.B's. In fact some of his close standing normals have better +frames to help you out with "start stop start stop"-ing if you aren't really used to it. This also has to do with our 3rd point but before that...

2nd: IMHO post-akegarasu "mixups" arent even comparable to rekkas and safe jumps in terms of continuing pressure. First of all, there isn't much you can do with that slight frame advantage that would beat the moves in this game that would beat safe jumps aside from immediately hopping over any invincible command throws after you've trained the opponent to think you're going stay grounded, this still loses to pretty much any other kind of strike-based reversal though, even ones that actually couldve been easily safe jumped. Also throw invulnerability lasts for a good while longer than actual hitstun and command grab after akegarasu on hit is a pretty shaky mixup since you have to wait a moment for the opponent to become "throwable" again. He barely has any frame advantage on hit so its not much different than tagging the opponent with a random close normal except with much less potential for good abare outside of drive cancelling it on the spot. It is decent if you can get your opponent to respect the possibility of Cl.St.C or Cl.St.b then you can finally start to do other things. And while his QCB+c does have some decent lower body invul and can be confirmed into some pretty scary damage if you yomi'd a low and tagged the opponent, it'll still lose to much more commonly mashed on normals like say cl.c. you're better off doing basically what you said and using cl.b or cl.c to train the opponent not to press anything or yknow move at all. Though its all still vulnerable to invincible reversals where a safe jump is much less likely to get blown up by such things. And now moving on to what I really wanted to address..

What in the world are you talking about? Up close claw iori has pretty much nothing on ex iori outside of damage output and a faster command which sometimes can be detrimental thanks to the inconsistency in throw invul in this game thanks to sometimes (even unintentional) alternate guarding, not that this is hard to work around though..but even so I'd rather take the somewhat invulnerable ex command grab that takes longer to startup and probably won't get blown up by some accidental alternate guarding. This, by the way, is referring to the two command throws in general, not to the situation regarding akegarasu. anyway, ex iori generally has the same or better frame advantage on all his normal moves (see Cl.a, Cl.b, far.a, etc.) In fact, the only two normals that are better for claw are FAR St.c (which is still minus frames btw just 1f less minus, big deal for a normal that is usually cancelled into something anyway) and his St.CD. his Cl.St.c is actually exactly the same in terms of frames. I don't know what you were trying to say but don't spread misinformation. I feel that none of your reasons for why claw is better up close are very valid or are at the very least concrete enough to argue on with the exception of the damage he gets when he actual lands something.

I think a seperate thread should be made for comparing the two yagami's. A lot of this is just clogging the claw thread with things that may not necessarily be useful for people who actually just want to play claw and learn more about him specifically.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 08:17:24 AM by Bloom of the Wolf »

Crimson_King15

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Re: Iori Yagami (Console)
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2012, 12:15:03 PM »
...wow I don't even know where to start.... mostly because you made it extremely tedious to address your post piece by piece by using the quoting system poorly...


I guess for starters, I would have to ask; who are you playing that is throwing projectiles within the range that they can be neomaxed? Do they know the zoner - claw iori match up? Also considering you said that the fireballs would go through you while you tagged them in recovery with the neomax, i would hazard a guess at the probability that you didn't react to a fireball and run into range of yatagarasu, buffer the motion and watch the claw sparks fly but rather that you either successfully yomi'd a button or that the opponent made some very grave mistakes in their spacing. More importantly, the fact that yatagarasu CAN get full damage when used is raw isn't the point. Rather it's the opposite, while a bit less than 400 is nothing to sneeze at, ex iori will ALWAYS get 480 for landing a raw neomax and the ability to use it reaction to certain moves at a much greater range than claw's (depending on the match up of course, characters like Athena and king are much more difficult to punish for their fireballs at half screen if your reactions aren't on point) makes homurahotogi a much more viable raw neomax. Especially when KOF is full of (much harder to react to when being pressure) hops and claw's neomax is only about as fast one of ex iori's non-ex dps, having similar pitfalls when not perfectly reacting to or reading a hop, simply put you react a second too late and you get accidentally safejumped and die.


And SNKPLAYMORE already explained that Ex iori's loss of auto-target on his neomax when maxcancelling IS in fact a glitch. I don't really know how to address the rest of what you wrote because it looks like you accidentally quoted the rest of what I wrote but put it in the wrong place.



Claw iori's close up game is not better than ex's in any aspect outside of the damage he gets for simply opening the opponent up "for multiple reasons".

1: your problems regarding inputs do not reflect a weakness in the character. I have no difficulty with dashing st.A's and St.B's. In fact some of his close standing normals have better +frames to help you out with "start stop start stop"-ing if you aren't really used to it. This also has to do with our 3rd point but before that...

2nd: IMHO post-akegarasu "mixups" arent even comparable to rekkas and safe jumps in terms of continuing pressure. First of all, there isn't much you can do with that slight frame advantage that would beat the moves in this game that would beat safe jumps aside from immediately hopping over any invincible command throws after you've trained the opponent to think you're going stay grounded, this still loses to pretty much any other kind of strike-based reversal though, even ones that actually couldve been easily safe jumped. Also throw invulnerability lasts for a good while longer than actual hitstun and command grab after akegarasu on hit is a pretty shaky mixup since you have to wait a moment for the opponent to become "throwable" again. He barely has any frame advantage on hit so its not much different than tagging the opponent with a random close normal except with much less potential for good abare outside of drive cancelling it on the spot. It is decent if you can get your opponent to respect the possibility of Cl.St.C or Cl.St.b then you can finally start to do other things. And while his QCB+c does have some decent lower body invul and can be confirmed into some pretty scary damage if you yomi'd a low and tagged the opponent, it'll still lose to much more commonly mashed on normals like say cl.c. you're better off doing basically what you said and using cl.b or cl.c to train the opponent not to press anything or yknow move at all. Though its all still vulnerable to invincible reversals where a safe jump is much less likely to get blown up by such things. And now moving on to what I really wanted to address..

What in the world are you talking about? Up close claw iori has pretty much nothing on ex iori outside of damage output and a faster command which sometimes can be detrimental thanks to the inconsistency in throw invul in this game thanks to sometimes (even unintentional) alternate guarding, not that this is hard to work around though..but even so I'd rather take the somewhat invulnerable ex command grab that takes longer to startup and probably won't get blown up by some accidental alternate guarding. This, by the way, is referring to the two command throws in general, not to the situation regarding akegarasu. anyway, ex iori generally has the same or better frame advantage on all his normal moves (see Cl.a, Cl.b, far.a, etc.) In fact, the only two normals that are better for claw are FAR St.c (which is still minus frames btw just 1f less minus, big deal for a normal that is usually cancelled into something anyway) and his St.CD. his Cl.St.c is actually exactly the same in terms of frames. I don't know what you were trying to say but don't spread misinformation. I feel that none of your reasons for why claw is better up close are very valid or are at the very least concrete enough to argue on with the exception of the damage he gets when he actual lands something.

I think a seperate thread should be made for comparing the two yagami's. A lot of this is just clogging the claw thread with things that may not necessarily be useful for people who actually just want to play claw and learn more about him specifically.

I apologize about that post. haha I tried breaking the quotes of yours into smaller sections but I'll try again.

1st: Flame Iori's Neo max tracks yes, but at the same time The Neo max isn't the fastest in the world (18 frames after animation to be exact) and you need to make a pretty nice read on your opponent to catch them with the neo max. Reason being is some characters with faster recovery on their projectiles will be able to jump away before flame touches them. Also I would think meter is pretty important to flame Iori so, I think that it's a massive gamble to do that neo max HOPING your opponent throws a fireball at the right time, or that you timed the neo max to hit them at the right time before they can be mobile again.

Best case scenario for Claw: Claw Iori's Neo max (6 frames) The fireball goes through Iori and My opponent eats the full 480
Worst case scenario for claw: I trade with the fireball users and eat 50-70 damage, but my opponent eats 360-400 damage

Best case for flame Iori: You hop over the fireball and blow them up for 480
Worse case for flame Iori: You overestimate the recovery time, and your opponent dodges. Result: you get punished

As for the Range on Claw Iori's neo max is about the same as flame iori's. Claw Iori's neo max's range is very deceptive because he runs forward then slashes meaning my range for punish is slightly past half screen. That means I've effectively shut down my opponent's fireball game simply by having a neo max from about 1/2 screen making my entry that much easier.

Now, You are correct about the whole "run and stop type" St.B thing doesn't make it worse. But In matches it is Very easy to have an execution error on those type of normals is my point even pros do it. Reynald for example does it with Kim's overhead sometimes when he wants to do run far st b. Claw Iori just removes the whole possibly of messing it up in general is my point.

2nd: Claw Iori's Overhead (21 frames) is faster and easier to use than Flame's (24 frames).  The reasons it's easier to use are. First, It's faster (I am captain obvious). Second If you look Iori's QCB+K and his Kui and compare them both have the same or about the same start up animation up until Iori pulls his hand over his head. So, you can use the similarities in animation to your advantage to mask your overhead. Flame has NO move whatsoever that looks anything like Gofu In.
Last, Claw's overhead is superior to Flame's because of the amount of time you have to cancel a raw one into a super and have it still combo. Claw Iori's overhead has more hitstun and it's easier to notice/take advantage of a hit. While flame's is kind of you have to expect the hit or be buffering then wait for the confirmation to input it.

3rd: Flame Iori's "Frame traps with rekkas" Aren't effective if you know the Iori player is -9 on block at best on the first rekka. At that point using rekkas for pressure does not become a reliable means for frame trapping PERIOD. -9 rekka is a free super, Light poke into an hd. You can't do jack with it outside of knockdown into mix ups so I don't know where this frame trap stuff occurs. So what do you truly have up close besides normals. Even his fireballs are horribly negative up close (don't know why you would want to throw fireballs up super close with Iori anyway but eh.)
As for mix ups his better mix ups will come off a Knockdown from shogetsu. But you still have great options of a Akegarasu. Also Landing an akegarasu on an impatient opponent is an easy bait on top of the other mind games you already have in your hip pocket.

4th: Up close Claw Iori has a far better command grab and EX command grab that Flames in terms of speed and IMO Mix up potiential.
Claw Iori: 9 frames Normal and 5 frames for EX
Flame Iori: 13 regardless of version just EX has Invincibility
 
Not only is Claw's Faster but it produces more damage without drive meter burn.Reason being is Flame's command grab does 0 damage, BUT Still scales your next hit meaning you are opening the opponent up but you are losing damage.Claw's however does 50 damage puts them into a juggle state and allows for massive follow ups.
Flame iori's max damage combo without burning drive hits about 496 and that's me command throwing him into the corner and using 3 bars for ex rekka>DP> ex maiden masher
Claw Iori Pops 410 off this hcf+P> DP+C> Ex maiden masher Anywhere on the screen
in the corner with no drive and 2 bars 495. But If Claw match Flame at 3 bars he hits for 552 in the corner
This means Claw get about the same damage for a whole bar less or way more for the exact same amount.

These are quite a few of the main reasons why Claw's Game up close is a lot better than flames. Hope it this is more understandable. lol
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 12:33:54 PM by Crimson_King15 »

Bloom of the Wolf

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Re: Iori Yagami (Console)
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2012, 05:13:20 PM »

1st: Flame Iori's Neo max tracks yes, but at the same time The Neo max isn't the fastest in the world (18 frames after animation to be exact) and you need to make a pretty nice read on your opponent to catch them with the neo max. Reason being is some characters with faster recovery on their projectiles will be able to jump away before flame touches them. Also I would think meter is pretty important to flame Iori so, I think that it's a massive gamble to do that neo max HOPING your opponent throws a fireball at the right time, or that you timed the neo max to hit them at the right time before they can be mobile again.

this is precisely why used phrasing like "certain moves" and "depending on the matchup". moreover i would say that, in my experience, anywhere within half a screen away is plenty of time to react to and punish a fireball or some such (baltic launcher/ice breath/what have you) from a good portion of the cast (basically anyone with ash's A ventose-esque recovery and up) without "HOPING" that an opponent threw a fireball and foolishly trying to yomi it with something as expensive as a neomax. furthermore, it's more of a "massive gamble" for claw to throw all his eggs into one basket and try to raw neomax any character at pretty much any point in the match (save for against an opponent who is down to their last character with less than 400 life left) than it is for flame, considering that flame is so much less meter dependent in his general gameplan than claw and that claw without meter is infinitely less scary, as he needs meter a) to hold any kind of water against zoners, b) to deal with the fact he has NO meterless reversals worth using EVER, and c) has poor damage output without resources, not to mention the fact that he has virtually no hardknockdowns without said meter. this forces him to rely heavily on reset mixups that are much less scary in a game where "positive edge/advanced input" allows you to easily get auto-corrected reversals even if you aren't a charge character with a down-up motion reversal. of course you can bait pretty much any reversal in the game but the point is now you have to worry about safety during your own mixups. wouldn't be as much of a problem with safejumps, i say.



Best case scenario for Claw: Claw Iori's Neo max (6 frames) The fireball goes through Iori and My opponent eats the full 480
Worst case scenario for claw: I trade with the fireball users and eat 50-70 damage, but my opponent eats 360-400 damage

Best case for flame Iori: You hop over the fireball and blow them up for 480
Worse case for flame Iori: You overestimate the recovery time, and your opponent dodges. Result: you get punished


actually best case scenario at half screen still has you hitting them for only 400. you need to be within 2 character spaces of the opponent to get that sweet red light district damage. guarantee you aren't reacting to fireballs within that space. anyway, your opponent either dies with their last character in that exchange or your opponent now finds himself fighting a suddenly much less threatening claw iori. best case scenario.

worst case scenario, again at max range: you find yourself playing against a halfway decent opponent with a lame character that is already wary of ex akegarasu (not even paying mind to the neomax) and isn't throwing fireballs at an as consistent and predictable rate as a training dummy on your home console because he's already trying to bait you into wasting the bar on ex akegarasu (as any player with some claw match up exp has a tendency of doing), they're doing everything in their power to mess with your trigger finger, crouching into standing jabs and shorts to fake fireball motions, hopping in place, whatever, their character has decent recovery on their projectile and when they finally throw that damned thing you react a moment too late because you were making sure it wasn't actually some kind of move often used to bait anti-fireball moves. yatagarasu has 6 frame startup meaning it gains its first active hitbox on the 6th frame, not necessarily that its entire animation and according hitboxes extend in those 6 frames, regardless, it's still fast as shit but you're opponent manages to block as their fireball passes through you. result: any character in the game gets to run all the way up to you for a free punish. even at max range, almost every character in the game gets to do this unless you were both midscreen which is doubtful when taking into account the nature of someone facing a claw iori with anywhere over 2 stock and full drive.


As for the Range on Claw Iori's neo max is about the same as flame iori's. Claw Iori's neo max's range is very deceptive because he runs forward then slashes meaning my range for punish is slightly past half screen. That means I've effectively shut down my opponent's fireball game simply by having a neo max from about 1/2 screen making my entry that much easier.

i agree it is very deceptive (i don't agree that ex iori's is the same seeing as how his can tag an opponent from about a character space and a half behind claw's max range but i wont argue that point since i think it would be very unwise to use it in a spot like that anyway) but that does not "shut down an opponents fireball game". if people just stopped throwing fireballs and let you in everytime you had the meter to do 400 in one shot then become a much worse character in pretty much every regard, this would be a much worse fighting game, perhaps more akin to svc where the threat of guard cancels every other second makes you pretty wary of even touching moves that arent cancellable normals lol. point is; people wont stop zoning on the off chance that you're going to raw neomax or super or whatever no matter what character you are. they're just going to be smarter about when and where they do so. on top of that, as i said using flame iori's neomax to kill fireballs within the halfscreen mark, as you would with claw, is pretty well within the range of being able to punish many fireballs in recovery without having to worry about most characters recovering in time to body you free for whiffing raw neomax. still has the same pitfalls against intelligent zoning and isn't as fast but it'll get you 480 everytime if successful and won't leave you with a burnt out husk of a character afterwards where claw's leans pretty much the other way on both counts.


Now, You are correct about the whole "run and stop type" St.B thing doesn't make it worse. But In matches it is Very easy to have an execution error on those type of normals is my point even pros do it. Reynald for example does it with Kim's overhead sometimes when he wants to do run far st b. Claw Iori just removes the whole possibly of messing it up in general is my point.


i have no qualms with that. i respect it.


2nd: Claw Iori's Overhead (21 frames) is faster and easier to use than Flame's (24 frames).  The reasons it's easier to use are. First, It's faster (I am captain obvious). Second If you look Iori's QCB+K and his Kui and compare them both have the same or about the same start up animation up until Iori pulls his hand over his head. So, you can use the similarities in animation to your advantage to mask your overhead. Flame has NO move whatsoever that looks anything like Gofu In.
Last, Claw's overhead is superior to Flame's because of the amount of time you have to cancel a raw one into a super and have it still combo. Claw Iori's overhead has more hitstun and it's easier to notice/take advantage of a hit. While flame's is kind of you have to expect the hit or be buffering then wait for the confirmation to input it.

this has already been discussed. read further back. to say one is flat out superior to other is pretty narrow-minded when they each have their strengths and flaws. although i don't know why you would try use the similarity to a move like qcb+k that isn't low hitting anyway to attempt trick the opponent into not blocking your overhead correctly. someone earlier mentioned it was similar to his cl.st.b. that made more sense.


3rd: Flame Iori's "Frame traps with rekkas" Aren't effective if you know the Iori player is -9 on block at best on the first rekka. At that point using rekkas for pressure does not become a reliable means for frame trapping PERIOD. -9 rekka is a free super, Light poke into an hd. You can't do jack with it outside of knockdown into mix ups so I don't know where this frame trap stuff occurs. So what do you truly have up close besides normals. Even his fireballs are horribly negative up close (don't know why you would want to throw fireballs up super close with Iori anyway but eh.)
As for mix ups his better mix ups will come off a Knockdown from shogetsu. But you still have great options of a Akegarasu. Also Landing an akegarasu on an impatient opponent is an easy bait on top of the other mind games you already have in your hip pocket.


...........where on earth did you get using rekkas themselves for frame traps? i was talking about using them as a confirm from your farthest reaching cancel-able normals. max range cr.a still chains into forward a which is enough time to confirm into rekkas. the whole point of that entire last direct-to-dreamcancel short novel was that he has better pressure because his normals give him better advantage on block, are easily confirmable into rekkas anywhere on screen, and never leave you in a position where you would commit to special move on block (if you were to do this with honoo iori, and you shouldn't, his fireball should still pretty much always be the go-to-special because at the very least it isn't punishable unless guardcancel rolled pre-emptively but that can punish both shougetsu and akegarasu and whatnot as well). even with claw, committing to a special move on block (especially since none of his are +f on block or leave him at a distance where it wouldn't be advantageous for the opponent to move) is tantamount to saying "my turn is over, now press buttons". hell, even honoo's cl.b link to cl.c is more lenient, as if to tell you that you shouldn't be using a low forward>hadouken mentality with your offense with the character.

and on the topic of using aoihana outside of combos, if ever you WERE to do so, it should pretty much be the way we've seen from the japanese players, the korean players, b.a.l.a. (when he was messing with flame), the answer (same), basically anyone you ever saw play that character that had half a clue what they were doing in this game and basically any iori player at all in any of the previous kofs, although the difference now is how it works on block. you would use it as long range poke in a similar vein to the way people abuse duo lon's rekkas. in a game as aggressive as kof, having a move that starts up quick, covers a decent distance ahead and tags anyone in your hop space is definitely not a bad thing. it is, in effect, an ein trigger that covers hop space and pretty much denies any overzealous advancing on your opponent's part, which is an intergral part of just playing the game. of course there is always the possibility that they just stood there and waited for you to rekka yourself to your doom (in this case you're doing rekkas outside of combos entirely too often anyway) but the fact still remains that they ARE rekkas and they CAN be staggered. it's not nearly as helpful in this game, since the pushback on block isn't as great but you can easily tag opponents mashing cr.b or st.c with your second rekka if timed properly. i don't really agree with this as a legitimate strategy either but i think what you're missing is that when frame data says that the rekka is -9 on block just means it has you're still in recovery for 9 frames after the opponent has left blockstun if you just did the one rekka. it doesn't mean there is always at least a 9 frame period between the 1st rekka and the 2nd, that always varies based on how soon the player inputs the second rekka. even more importantly, while the opponent can just say "fuck it" and dp or reversal for some guaranteed damage, option selecting a punish on the first rekka at the same time as beating any second rekkas in start up clean; the threat of a staggered rekka has forced the opponent to give up their optimal punish for some guaranteed but sub-par damage. then there's opponents waiting for the second rekka altogether giving any punishes on single rekkas on block which is in turn a whole 'nother mindgame sighhhhhhhhh it's tedious to explain the entire r/p/s of staggered rekkas to someone. if you don't already understand and its a pretty messy situation i'd say. i prefer to just not use the rekka's outside of confirms too often. i think i got off track. we weren't talking about rekka frametraps before. "the frametrap stuff occurs" in the usage of his superior normals. the rekkas are for confirming off of said normals. the point is he has better pressure because he has better normals PERIOD



4th: Up close Claw Iori has a far better command grab and EX command grab that Flames in terms of speed and IMO Mix up potiential.
Claw Iori: 9 frames Normal and 5 frames for EX
Flame Iori: 13 regardless of version just EX has Invincibility
 
Not only is Claw's Faster but it produces more damage without drive meter burn.Reason being is Flame's command grab does 0 damage, BUT Still scales your next hit meaning you are opening the opponent up but you are losing damage.Claw's however does 50 damage puts them into a juggle state and allows for massive follow ups.
Flame iori's max damage combo without burning drive hits about 496 and that's me command throwing him into the corner and using 3 bars for ex rekka>DP> ex maiden masher
Claw Iori Pops 410 off this hcf+P> DP+C> Ex maiden masher Anywhere on the screen
in the corner with no drive and 2 bars 495. But If Claw match Flame at 3 bars he hits for 552 in the corner
This means Claw get about the same damage for a whole bar less or way more for the exact same amount.

right, i think i touched on this a little bit already but being faster doesn't make it better, it would make a difference if it was a 1frame throw, then at least it would be a useful punish, but it isn't and being 9 frames doesn't make it any better when not ex'd. it's actually more prone to lose to accidental switchblocking and the EX version's poor invul makes it more prone to getting beaten by mashers and it can't be used as an anti-air AND anti-safejump tool the way ex iori's command grab can. also the fact that ex iori's keeps the opponent grounded leads to mixups and resets of its own. on top of that, if ex iori is in the corner with no stock and only 1 drive (a tough spot for any character) and he lands his invulnerable reversal, which again claw does not have without stock, he can drive cancel it into his command grab to put the opponent in the corner WITH hard knockdown. if the opponent wasn't grounded, he can still drive cancel into kototsuki for hard knockdown and get out of the corner. there is no such use for claw's command grab. it's purposes are entirely linear. open up opponent or extend combos.

also i get 418 for command throw cl.c>forward a>rekka(2)>Empty Cancel>EX maiden masher. ahem. ANYWHERE ON SCREEN thats 2 stocks/ no drive.
I can hit for 515 in the corner for three stocks and no drive using command throw blahblah EX rekka>EC>rekka>EC>dp>EX maiden masher and thats not even close to optimized it took literally like a total of three seconds of thought to cobble together when i had a few spare moments to play the other day.

These are quite a few of the main reasons why Claw's Game up close is a lot better than flames. Hope it this is more understandable. lol

lmao you were much more clear this time, thank you. but maybe you shouldn't make such bold statements, just based on what i've read from you so far your thinking in terms of ex iori and his tools should be a little less um (basic? outdated? cant find the right word here) linear (thats it!) than it is before speaking about how much better you know claw is.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 05:18:44 PM by Bloom of the Wolf »

Crimson_King15

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Re: Iori Yagami (Console)
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2012, 08:04:57 PM »
 
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this is precisely why used phrasing like "certain moves" and "depending on the matchup". moreover i would say that, in my experience, anywhere within half a screen away is plenty of time to react to and punish a fireball or some such (baltic launcher/ice breath/what have you) from a good portion of the cast (basically anyone with ash's A ventose-esque recovery and up) without "HOPING" that an opponent threw a fireball and foolishly trying to yomi it with something as expensive as a neomax.

Ok I can respect this I missed this and it is my fault! we had the same point all along on this one barring the Claw Iori Neo max punish.
Just a side note: If Iori manages to trade Neo-max with a super In certain situations ex maiden masher can follow up. Just found that out today experimenting in the lab.lol

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considering that flame is so much less meter dependent in his general gameplan than claw and that claw without meter is infinitely less scary, as he needs meter a) to hold any kind of water against zoners

Yes, It is Very true that Iori has difficulty against Zoners without meter, but he can easily manage to get himself within st b range which is about where he wants to be. His air to air game makes it reasonable hard to take that space away from him. Jump b is a really good tool for not so much hit confirming but dancing, and poking zoners.

Also depending on the opponents Anti air Jump D can Arch Iori's leg so he moves over it and hits the opponent instead of getting AA'd Ex Kim st d (I know he isn't a zoner, but good lord is that move a godlike AA or is it just me? lol) or better yet Kings Cr c.

I feel Claw Iori is like Kim in the sense that. Kim doesn't do a lot of damage without meter AND he doesn't enjoy fighting zoners but, It can be done as long as he can get within st b range he can win.

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has poor damage output without resources, not to mention the fact that he has virtually no hardknockdowns without said meter.

Now, you are absolutely correct when you say Iori doesn't have these things without meter but I honestly find soft knock downs can be just as useful for Oki as well as a hard knockdown. When you have a hard KD yes it's scary very scary, but So is a quick rise mix up. If you think when you play most people normally get most antsy to push buttons or get intimidated when they are reset or they are quick rising. A quick rise mix up can be just as effective because you force your opponent into a position where they have to immediately make a decision, and with Iori's speed it's not hard for him to stay on top of you after a soft KD. Claw Iori has lots of Oki of Soft knockdowns and also plenty nasty bait tactics. Also If you intimidate or condition your opponent into not pushing anything and you can easily scoop them with a command grab.

Just remembered Claw Iori can follow up his C Shogetsu with Yumebiki when done properly and it gives you a knockdown as well as cancel it to stay close.lol

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this forces him to rely heavily on reset mixups that are much less scary in a game where "positive edge/advanced input" allows you to easily get auto-corrected reversals even if you aren't a charge character with a down-up motion reversal. of course you can bait pretty much any reversal in the game but the point is now you have to worry about safety during your own mixups. wouldn't be as much of a problem with safejumps, i say

As for resets being less scary i don't understand how having the ability to input something in advance makes a mix up/ reset less scary. You're taking a massive guess hoping that out of all my options I choose the 1 or 2 that your reversal/option you selected covers. That's a massive gamble vs Claw Iori. The other thing that makes it even scarier is that doing nothing also runs a risk meaning you are forced to play my game 1 way or another.

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worst case scenario, again at max range: you find yourself playing against a halfway decent opponent with a lame character that is already wary of ex akegarasu (not even paying mind to the neomax) and isn't throwing fireballs at an as consistent and predictable rate as a training dummy on your home console because he's already trying to bait you into wasting the bar on ex akegarasu (as any player with some claw match up exp has a tendency of doing), they're doing everything in their power to mess with your trigger finger, crouching into standing jabs and shorts to fake fireball motions, hopping in place, whatever, their character has decent recovery on their projectile and when they finally throw that damned thing you react a moment too late because you were making sure it wasn't actually some kind of move often used to bait anti-fireball moves

Now you seem to underestimate people's ability to recognize and react to the animation. Of course people will be VERY VERY cautious about throwing projectiles at Iori when he has meter however knowing this I'm not looking to anticipate the fireball and punish I'm looking to punish on reaction to the animation (something I am notorious for especially in AE). The only way to have a trigger finger malfunction is if you are looking for something so you are buffering a move, and then you input it which is something I tend to avoid.

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yatagarasu has 6 frame startup meaning it gains its first active hitbox on the 6th frame, not necessarily that its entire animation and according hitboxes extend in those 6 frames, regardless, it's still fast as shit but you're opponent manages to block as their fireball passes through you. result: any character in the game gets to run all the way up to you for a free punish. even at max range, almost every character in the game gets to do this unless you were both midscreen which is doubtful when taking into account the nature of someone facing a claw iori with anywhere over 2 stock and full drive.

You don't have to wait for the fireball to pass through you is the thing. If it's better off to trade then trade. There are VERY VERY Few situations when Trading 400 for 50-60 damage is a bad thing. Also, if you think about it when you get that trade you lessen your recovery meaning you can immediately get back on offense once you have recovered from the hitstun of the projectile. So, while trading isn't Claw Iori's prefered option but it does have a few perks to it.

As for Iori having 2 meters and full drive I find myself with 3-5 bars consistently because I manage how I am going to use them. Reason being is because It's scary when you have options as Claw Iori. The options unlocked by Claw Iori having one bar is a threat, 2 bars is a scary threat, 3-5 bars is watch what I push status because anything can be punished. Having meter makes it easier to get closer to zoners just because of the threat of my options. They have no choice but to be weary meaning I can take advantage of this and not have to work as hard as normal to get close to my opponent. Some match ups I won't use anything but a bar or 2 just because having the option to punish something is better in the match than burning it for damage and losing the option.

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i agree it is very deceptive (i don't agree that ex iori's is the same seeing as how his can tag an opponent from about a character space and a half behind claw's max range but i wont argue that point since i think it would be very unwise to use it in a spot like that anyway) but that does not "shut down an opponents fireball game".


Shutting down an opponents fireball game does not literally mean they won't throw fireballs at all.lol You took it too literally. What it means is They have to be more cautious about their fireball placement because they know if they aren't BOOOM "ex maiden masher or Neo-max" Think like it is Street fighter Balrog vs Ryu is 5-5 but, as Soon as balrog gets super that match turns to a 7-3 (quoting Keno) because Ryu's ability to use hadouken is severely limited, and now a main staple in his game plan has become a massive risk.

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right, i think i touched on this a little bit already but being faster doesn't make it better, it would make a difference if it was a 1frame throw, then at least it would be a useful punish, but it isn't and being 9 frames doesn't make it any better when not ex'd. it's actually more prone to lose to accidental switchblocking and the EX version's poor invul makes it more prone to getting beaten by mashers and it can't be used as an anti-air AND anti-safejump tool the way ex iori's command grab can.

there is no such use for claw's command grab. it's purposes are entirely linear. open up opponent or extend combos.

1. Iori's ex command grab is an extremely I mean Extremely useful punish tool. I can not express how amazing it is for punishing quick recovery moves for massive damage follow ups. Clark, Leona, Athena, Chin, mr.karate, Kyo, Kim, and billy are a few characters who hate this move. Because in addition to Speed it also gains a bit of range meaning TONS of things are punishable that weren't before. So not only is the speed better than Flame's but the range is better as well.

2. While now people can't fall into it People also cant apply grounded pressure on Claw's wake up as well as they can flames because they have to fear being scooped for a massive conversion with a 13 frame start up that is more than enough time to whiff a light and then hop if you see the flash or even counter with your own invinc move as an OS.



 
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also the fact that ex iori's keeps the opponent grounded leads to mixups and resets of its own. on top of that, if ex iori is in the corner with no stock and only 1 drive (a tough spot for any character) and he lands his invulnerable reversal, which again claw does not have without stock, he can drive cancel it into his command grab to put the opponent in the corner WITH hard knockdown. if the opponent wasn't grounded, he can still drive cancel into kototsuki for hard knockdown and get out of the corner.

Now, Me I play Vega is SSFIV. Vega has no invinc without ultra 2 however what he does have is speed in the form of scarlet terror. Claw Iori is no different While his A dp has no invinc it is hella fast, and is capable of being used as an amazing tool simply due to this fact. Even if it trades Iori's recovery is reduced and guess what that means if you have meter? That's right Trade into maiden masher, or in the case of you scenario I trade and I get out of the corner and I'm able to get on offense because I WILL recover faster than my opponent.

Also, just so you know DP into Koto tsuki is not guaranteed to hit because my opponent is in the Air due to the fact that it completely depends on the height your opponent is at when you drive cancel into Koto tsuki. ALSO Koto tsuki is notorious for only giving the first hit and not the following explosion. SOOOOO That's a huge what if.

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also i get 418 for command throw cl.c>forward a>rekka(2)>Empty Cancel>EX maiden masher. ahem. ANYWHERE ON SCREEN thats 2 stocks/ no drive.
I can hit for 515 in the corner for three stocks and no drive using command throw blahblah EX rekka>EC>rekka>EC>dp>EX maiden masher and thats not even close to optimized it took literally like a total of three seconds of thought to cobble together when i had a few spare moments to play the other day.

Haha good stuff. I've never seen these combos man. You should make a video displaying them that would be nasty and good stuff to add to the thread!

« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 08:30:18 PM by Crimson_King15 »