1st: Flame Iori's Neo max tracks yes, but at the same time The Neo max isn't the fastest in the world (18 frames after animation to be exact) and you need to make a pretty nice read on your opponent to catch them with the neo max. Reason being is some characters with faster recovery on their projectiles will be able to jump away before flame touches them. Also I would think meter is pretty important to flame Iori so, I think that it's a massive gamble to do that neo max HOPING your opponent throws a fireball at the right time, or that you timed the neo max to hit them at the right time before they can be mobile again.
this is precisely why used phrasing like "certain moves" and "depending on the matchup". moreover i would say that, in my experience, anywhere within half a screen away is plenty of time to react to and punish a fireball or some such (baltic launcher/ice breath/what have you) from a good portion of the cast (basically anyone with ash's A ventose-esque recovery and up) without "HOPING" that an opponent threw a fireball and foolishly trying to yomi it with something as expensive as a neomax. furthermore, it's more of a "massive gamble" for claw to throw all his eggs into one basket and try to raw neomax any character at pretty much any point in the match (save for against an opponent who is down to their last character with less than 400 life left) than it is for flame, considering that flame is so much less meter dependent in his general gameplan than claw and that claw without meter is infinitely less scary, as he needs meter a) to hold any kind of water against zoners, b) to deal with the fact he has NO meterless reversals worth using EVER, and c) has poor damage output without resources, not to mention the fact that he has virtually no hardknockdowns without said meter. this forces him to rely heavily on reset mixups that are much less scary in a game where "positive edge/advanced input" allows you to easily get auto-corrected reversals even if you aren't a charge character with a down-up motion reversal. of course you can bait pretty much any reversal in the game but the point is now you have to worry about safety during your own mixups. wouldn't be as much of a problem with safejumps, i say.
Best case scenario for Claw: Claw Iori's Neo max (6 frames) The fireball goes through Iori and My opponent eats the full 480
Worst case scenario for claw: I trade with the fireball users and eat 50-70 damage, but my opponent eats 360-400 damage
Best case for flame Iori: You hop over the fireball and blow them up for 480
Worse case for flame Iori: You overestimate the recovery time, and your opponent dodges. Result: you get punished
actually best case scenario at half screen still has you hitting them for only 400. you need to be within 2 character spaces of the opponent to get that sweet red light district damage. guarantee you aren't reacting to fireballs within that space. anyway, your opponent either dies with their last character in that exchange or your opponent now finds himself fighting a suddenly much less threatening claw iori. best case scenario.
worst case scenario, again at max range: you find yourself playing against a halfway decent opponent with a lame character that is already wary of ex akegarasu (not even paying mind to the neomax) and isn't throwing fireballs at an as consistent and predictable rate as a training dummy on your home console because he's already trying to bait you into wasting the bar on ex akegarasu (as any player with some claw match up exp has a tendency of doing), they're doing everything in their power to mess with your trigger finger, crouching into standing jabs and shorts to fake fireball motions, hopping in place, whatever, their character has decent recovery on their projectile and when they finally throw that damned thing you react a moment too late because you were making sure it wasn't actually some kind of move often used to bait anti-fireball moves. yatagarasu has 6 frame startup meaning it gains its first active hitbox on the 6th frame, not necessarily that its entire animation and according hitboxes extend in those 6 frames, regardless, it's still fast as shit but you're opponent manages to block as their fireball passes through you. result: any character in the game gets to run all the way up to you for a free punish. even at max range, almost every character in the game gets to do this unless you were both midscreen which is doubtful when taking into account the nature of someone facing a claw iori with anywhere over 2 stock and full drive.
As for the Range on Claw Iori's neo max is about the same as flame iori's. Claw Iori's neo max's range is very deceptive because he runs forward then slashes meaning my range for punish is slightly past half screen. That means I've effectively shut down my opponent's fireball game simply by having a neo max from about 1/2 screen making my entry that much easier.
i agree it is very deceptive (i don't agree that ex iori's is the same seeing as how his can tag an opponent from about a character space and a half behind claw's max range but i wont argue that point since i think it would be very unwise to use it in a spot like that anyway) but that does not "shut down an opponents fireball game". if people just stopped throwing fireballs and let you in everytime you had the meter to do 400 in one shot then become a much worse character in pretty much every regard, this would be a much worse fighting game, perhaps more akin to svc where the threat of guard cancels every other second makes you pretty wary of even touching moves that arent cancellable normals lol. point is; people wont stop zoning on the off chance that you're going to raw neomax or super or whatever no matter what character you are. they're just going to be smarter about when and where they do so. on top of that, as i said using flame iori's neomax to kill fireballs within the halfscreen mark, as you would with claw, is pretty well within the range of being able to punish many fireballs in recovery without having to worry about most characters recovering in time to body you free for whiffing raw neomax. still has the same pitfalls against intelligent zoning and isn't as fast but it'll get you 480 everytime if successful and won't leave you with a burnt out husk of a character afterwards where claw's leans pretty much the other way on both counts.
Now, You are correct about the whole "run and stop type" St.B thing doesn't make it worse. But In matches it is Very easy to have an execution error on those type of normals is my point even pros do it. Reynald for example does it with Kim's overhead sometimes when he wants to do run far st b. Claw Iori just removes the whole possibly of messing it up in general is my point.
i have no qualms with that. i respect it.
2nd: Claw Iori's Overhead (21 frames) is faster and easier to use than Flame's (24 frames). The reasons it's easier to use are. First, It's faster (I am captain obvious). Second If you look Iori's QCB+K and his Kui and compare them both have the same or about the same start up animation up until Iori pulls his hand over his head. So, you can use the similarities in animation to your advantage to mask your overhead. Flame has NO move whatsoever that looks anything like Gofu In.
Last, Claw's overhead is superior to Flame's because of the amount of time you have to cancel a raw one into a super and have it still combo. Claw Iori's overhead has more hitstun and it's easier to notice/take advantage of a hit. While flame's is kind of you have to expect the hit or be buffering then wait for the confirmation to input it.
this has already been discussed. read further back. to say one is flat out superior to other is pretty narrow-minded when they each have their strengths and flaws. although i don't know why you would try use the similarity to a move like qcb+k that isn't low hitting anyway to attempt trick the opponent into not blocking your overhead correctly. someone earlier mentioned it was similar to his cl.st.b. that made more sense.
3rd: Flame Iori's "Frame traps with rekkas" Aren't effective if you know the Iori player is -9 on block at best on the first rekka. At that point using rekkas for pressure does not become a reliable means for frame trapping PERIOD. -9 rekka is a free super, Light poke into an hd. You can't do jack with it outside of knockdown into mix ups so I don't know where this frame trap stuff occurs. So what do you truly have up close besides normals. Even his fireballs are horribly negative up close (don't know why you would want to throw fireballs up super close with Iori anyway but eh.)
As for mix ups his better mix ups will come off a Knockdown from shogetsu. But you still have great options of a Akegarasu. Also Landing an akegarasu on an impatient opponent is an easy bait on top of the other mind games you already have in your hip pocket.
...........where on earth did you get using rekkas themselves for frame traps? i was talking about using them as a confirm from your farthest reaching cancel-able normals. max range cr.a still chains into forward a which is enough time to confirm into rekkas. the whole point of that entire last direct-to-dreamcancel short novel was that he has better pressure because his normals give him better advantage on block, are easily confirmable into rekkas anywhere on screen, and never leave you in a position where you would commit to special move on block (if you were to do this with honoo iori, and you shouldn't, his fireball should still pretty much always be the go-to-special because at the very least it isn't punishable unless guardcancel rolled pre-emptively but that can punish both shougetsu and akegarasu and whatnot as well). even with claw, committing to a special move on block (especially since none of his are +f on block or leave him at a distance where it wouldn't be advantageous for the opponent to move) is tantamount to saying "my turn is over, now press buttons". hell, even honoo's cl.b link to cl.c is more lenient, as if to tell you that you shouldn't be using a low forward>hadouken mentality with your offense with the character.
and on the topic of using aoihana outside of combos, if ever you WERE to do so, it should pretty much be the way we've seen from the japanese players, the korean players, b.a.l.a. (when he was messing with flame), the answer (same), basically anyone you ever saw play that character that had half a clue what they were doing in this game and basically any iori player at all in any of the previous kofs, although the difference now is how it works on block. you would use it as long range poke in a similar vein to the way people abuse duo lon's rekkas. in a game as aggressive as kof, having a move that starts up quick, covers a decent distance ahead and tags anyone in your hop space is definitely not a bad thing. it is, in effect, an ein trigger that covers hop space and pretty much denies any overzealous advancing on your opponent's part, which is an intergral part of just playing the game. of course there is always the possibility that they just stood there and waited for you to rekka yourself to your doom (in this case you're doing rekkas outside of combos entirely too often anyway) but the fact still remains that they ARE rekkas and they CAN be staggered. it's not nearly as helpful in this game, since the pushback on block isn't as great but you can easily tag opponents mashing cr.b or st.c with your second rekka if timed properly. i don't really agree with this as a legitimate strategy either but i think what you're missing is that when frame data says that the rekka is -9 on block just means it has you're still in recovery for 9 frames after the opponent has left blockstun if you just did the one rekka. it doesn't mean there is always at least a 9 frame period between the 1st rekka and the 2nd, that always varies based on how soon the player inputs the second rekka. even more importantly, while the opponent can just say "fuck it" and dp or reversal for some guaranteed damage, option selecting a punish on the first rekka at the same time as beating any second rekkas in start up clean; the threat of a staggered rekka has forced the opponent to give up their optimal punish for some guaranteed but sub-par damage. then there's opponents waiting for the second rekka altogether giving any punishes on single rekkas on block which is in turn a whole 'nother mindgame sighhhhhhhhh it's tedious to explain the entire r/p/s of staggered rekkas to someone. if you don't already understand and its a pretty messy situation i'd say. i prefer to just not use the rekka's outside of confirms too often. i think i got off track. we weren't talking about rekka frametraps before. "the frametrap stuff occurs" in the usage of his superior normals. the rekkas are for confirming off of said normals. the point is he has better pressure because he has better normals PERIOD
4th: Up close Claw Iori has a far better command grab and EX command grab that Flames in terms of speed and IMO Mix up potiential.
Claw Iori: 9 frames Normal and 5 frames for EX
Flame Iori: 13 regardless of version just EX has Invincibility
Not only is Claw's Faster but it produces more damage without drive meter burn.Reason being is Flame's command grab does 0 damage, BUT Still scales your next hit meaning you are opening the opponent up but you are losing damage.Claw's however does 50 damage puts them into a juggle state and allows for massive follow ups.
Flame iori's max damage combo without burning drive hits about 496 and that's me command throwing him into the corner and using 3 bars for ex rekka>DP> ex maiden masher
Claw Iori Pops 410 off this hcf+P> DP+C> Ex maiden masher Anywhere on the screen
in the corner with no drive and 2 bars 495. But If Claw match Flame at 3 bars he hits for 552 in the corner
This means Claw get about the same damage for a whole bar less or way more for the exact same amount.
right, i think i touched on this a little bit already but being faster doesn't make it better, it would make a difference if it was a 1frame throw, then at least it would be a useful punish, but it isn't and being 9 frames doesn't make it any better when not ex'd. it's actually more prone to lose to accidental switchblocking and the EX version's poor invul makes it more prone to getting beaten by mashers and it can't be used as an anti-air AND anti-safejump tool the way ex iori's command grab can. also the fact that ex iori's keeps the opponent grounded leads to mixups and resets of its own. on top of that, if ex iori is in the corner with no stock and only 1 drive (a tough spot for any character) and he lands his invulnerable reversal, which again claw does not have without stock, he can drive cancel it into his command grab to put the opponent in the corner WITH hard knockdown. if the opponent wasn't grounded, he can still drive cancel into kototsuki for hard knockdown and get out of the corner. there is no such use for claw's command grab. it's purposes are entirely linear. open up opponent or extend combos.
also i get 418 for command throw cl.c>forward a>rekka(2)>Empty Cancel>EX maiden masher. ahem. ANYWHERE ON SCREEN thats 2 stocks/ no drive.
I can hit for 515 in the corner for three stocks and no drive using command throw blahblah EX rekka>EC>rekka>EC>dp>EX maiden masher and thats not even close to optimized it took literally like a total of three seconds of thought to cobble together when i had a few spare moments to play the other day.
These are quite a few of the main reasons why Claw's Game up close is a lot better than flames. Hope it this is more understandable. lol
lmao you were much more clear this time, thank you. but maybe you shouldn't make such bold statements, just based on what i've read from you so far your thinking in terms of ex iori and his tools should be a little less um (basic? outdated? cant find the right word here) linear (thats it!) than it is before speaking about how much better you know claw is.