Author Topic: Balance issues and constructive suggestions  (Read 37894 times)

Cronopio

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Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« on: October 10, 2010, 12:14:49 PM »
No wonder nobody takes the US SNK community seriously. 90% of it thinks bugs are bad just because they are bugs (thank god you guys don't work in the game industry or we wouldn't have combos) and complain about players using top tiers and infinites.

Bugs, as long as they don't break the game ARE OK. Get over it. With the EX meter glitches removed you have a less balanced game.

And, if you guys have any hope of building a serious scene, please stop complaining about bugs, top tiers, infinites, etc for the sake of honor. This isn't 1991.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 10:51:42 AM by Kane317 »

Shiranui_ninja

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2010, 12:26:38 PM »
No wonder nobody takes the US SNK community seriously. 90% of it thinks bugs are bad just because they are bugs (thank god you guys don't work in the game industry or we wouldn't have combos) and complain about players using top tiers and infinites.

Bugs, as long as they don't break the game ARE OK. Get over it. With the EX meter glitches removed you have a less balanced game.

And, if you guys have any hope of building a serious scene, please stop complaining about bugs, top tiers, infinites, etc for the sake of honor. This isn't 1991.

So, what are you saying is that a well balanced game is that one which has broken god tiers chars, some with an infinite and a pair of characters who can fight like Dark Ash (buffed final boss of the game) because they can do EX moves without meter bar when the rest of the cast can't. This is most LOL post I've read here.

Anyway, glitches, free EX moves and infinites are gone with the patch. It has been an SNKP decision, so...

Kane317

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2010, 01:01:48 PM »
No wonder nobody takes the US SNK community seriously. 90% of it thinks bugs are bad just because they are bugs (thank god you guys don't work in the game industry or we wouldn't have combos) and complain about players using top tiers and infinites.

Bugs, as long as they don't break the game ARE OK. Get over it. With the EX meter glitches removed you have a less balanced game.

And, if you guys have any hope of building a serious scene, please stop complaining about bugs, top tiers, infinites, etc for the sake of honor. This isn't 1991.

... I won't even dignify a response for this.

krazykone123

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2010, 01:14:54 PM »
No wonder nobody takes the US SNK community seriously. 90% of it thinks bugs are bad just because they are bugs (thank god you guys don't work in the game industry or we wouldn't have combos) and complain about players using top tiers and infinites.

Bugs, as long as they don't break the game ARE OK. Get over it. With the EX meter glitches removed you have a less balanced game.

And, if you guys have any hope of building a serious scene, please stop complaining about bugs, top tiers, infinites, etc for the sake of honor. This isn't 1991.

It's a lot easier to take out bugs and infinities than significantly buffing the rest of the cast just saying, I can see where you're coming from though

So, what are you saying is that a well balanced game

Balance is such a over-rated concept, I mean it's nice but it shouldn't be the absolute "be all and end all"

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is that one which has broken god tiers chars

God tier characters in KOF is nothing new

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some with an infinite

A lot of characters in (other) KOF games have infinities as well, most them don't get taken out either

Quote
and a pair of characters who can fight like Dark Ash (buffed final boss of the game) because they can do EX moves without meter bar when the rest of the cast can't.

It gave them (Daimon/Takuma) more options, plus the drawback was that they'll never have meter if they constantly abused them in succession so it's not like it broke the game or anything (at least not in Daimon's case)

Quote
This is most LOL post I've read here.

You can laugh but he still makes a good point

Quote
Anyway, glitches, free EX moves and infinites are gone with the patch. It has been an SNKP decision, so...

and K' and Raiden are still the same, the very characters you guys were clamoring about being broken/OP in the first place, and some character specific infinities are still in there

anyway this was a pretty entertaining discussion but I think we should make another thread for it or something
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 01:50:53 PM by krazykone123 »

TYRANNICAL

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2010, 01:23:27 PM »
No wonder nobody takes the US SNK community seriously. 90% of it thinks bugs are bad just because they are bugs (thank god you guys don't work in the game industry or we wouldn't have combos) and complain about players using top tiers and infinites.
Aren't you the one complaining about players using the same "6-8 characters"?  Aren't you the one wanting a rebalance because of the top tier characters?  Looks like you're part of said 90%.  If a character is a lacking it's okay for them to have easy almost no meter death combos?  Really?  So if Ryo whenever he combos into C DP caused instant stun thus allowing him an easy no meter infinite vs everyone THAT'S OKAY because K' is higher on the tier list?  
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Bugs, as long as they don't break the game ARE OK. Get over it. With the EX meter glitches removed you have a less balanced game.
Tell me how Takuma's glitch made the game better for characters who are both worse than the top tiers and worse than Takuma.  All the ex glitches did was made Goro and Takuma better characters.  That didn't help the low tiers(whoever they are).  Takuma w/glitch has an easier time vs top tier and makes it harder for lower tiers to win against him. If you team Takuma w/gitch w/low tiers true statistically speaking the win % would increase solely because of Takuma w/glitch. But they would still be low tier. Meaning that the player would still need the skills to be good enough with the whole team to win. They would still be lacking. And that can't be your point because you can already achieve that result with any of the high/top tier characters no glitch included.
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And, if you guys have any hope of building a serious scene, please stop complaining about bugs, top tiers, infinites, etc for the sake of honor. This isn't 1991.
SNKP took out the infinites and glitches.  They don't want it in XIII.  Funny thing is that you're all up for infinites and bugs because they give some of the cast a better chance to win.  Do you even realize that players have been defeating superior characters all this time?  
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 01:25:27 PM by TYRANNICAL »
KOF XIII:
-K'/EX Kyo/EX Iori
-K'/Andy/Kyo
-Benimaru(Duo Lon)/Robert/Takuma(Iori)

Might controls everything.

krazykone123

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2010, 01:59:03 PM »
Well regardless if those bugs/glitches made the game more balanced/broken they're gone now so that's one less thing to worry about

sibarraz

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2010, 05:08:18 PM »
At this point I'm more sure that SNKP will release an upgrade kit (non free) with balances and maybe some new characters after tand hipotetical console release (the other thing could be that they release the upgrade kit and later the console game)

The could call it KOF XIII Regulation A or some stupid name for all of those revisions that are so popular now in arcade games, actually I think that SNK is the only one that never does them, I think that now will be their first time


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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2010, 06:02:33 PM »
Maybe getting a bit off-topic, but the next generation of arcade boards are going to adopt a digital distribution model. SNK was one of the signed on to develop for them, so future KOF games will be able to be patched easily.

Which is great news for us crazy folk who dislike bugs.

krazykone123

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2010, 06:10:05 PM »
Maybe getting a bit off-topic, but the next generation of arcade boards are going to adopt a digital distribution model. SNK was one of the signed on to develop for them, so future KOF games will be able to be patched easily.

Which is great news for us crazy folk who dislike bugs.

Yeah that NESiCAxLive thing, sounds very convenient for SNKP but wasn't there something about a surcharge too?

sibarraz

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2010, 07:23:21 PM »
The actual model of Nesica x live doesn't seem to convenient and with a bright future to be honest, there should be some changes with that model if they want to suceed with it

At least I had the ilussion that with that system, one day we could have one here or in the states, but if you can't modify the price of the system (100 yens) not too many arcades will bight them, because they had to pay to the company per play, and also I think a suscription fee

Is really expensive play on those machines, even here SF IV costs only 50 yens, and even that price is expensive for us (98 um was at 50 yens too, but the price was dropped to 25)


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Shiranui_ninja

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2010, 10:53:34 PM »
Balance is such a over-rated concept, I mean it's nice but it shouldn't be the absolute "be all and end all"
I simply totally disagree. But of course is just my point of view.

God tier characters in KOF is nothing new
No, isn't it. And all fighting games has and will have tier lists, but the difference between a god/top tier and a low tier can be higher or lower.

A lot of characters in (other) KOF games have infinities as well, most them don't get taken out either
This doesn't mean infinites are something good for a game. Or at least, if there have to be infinites all characters should have one.

It gave them (Daimon/Takuma) more options, plus the drawback was that they'll never have meter if they constantly abused them in succession so it's not like it broke the game or anything (at least not in Daimon's case)
Then they should give those "more options" to all the cast, not just Goro and Takuma. Or the game that you are creating is a broken game where two characters are overpowered and only characters with infinites or bugs like free EX moves can win. Then just remove the rest of the cast and make a game with 4 characters, not 31. The other 27 are just useless.

and K' and Raiden are still the same, the very characters you guys were clamoring about being broken/OP in the first place, and some character specific infinities are still in there. what are you going to do now?
First of all, I'm going to wait the console version. And I hope they include some kind of arrange mode more balanced than the arcade one, where K' and Raiden have been nerfed. But if they don't do this, then I'm just going to put all my efforts in find the keys to defeat K' and Raiden with characters I like. And if I can't because they so overpowered that is totally impossible win them without putting K' and Raiden in my team, then I'm not going to play this KOF anymore.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2010, 11:40:03 PM by Shiranui_ninja »

TYRANNICAL

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Re: Bug, infinites, and balance issues and what we should do about it.
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2010, 12:11:36 AM »
K' and Raiden lose all the time.  To inferior characters no less.  They will be a pain to deal with if they're like that in the final release but they have been beaten repeatedly.

KOF XIII:
-K'/EX Kyo/EX Iori
-K'/Andy/Kyo
-Benimaru(Duo Lon)/Robert/Takuma(Iori)

Might controls everything.

Nagare_Ryouma

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Re: Bug, infinites, and balance issues and what we should do about it.
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2010, 12:20:01 AM »
and K' and Raiden are still the same, the very characters you guys were clamoring about being broken/OP in the first place, and some character specific infinities are still in there. what are you going to do now?
First of all, I'm going to wait the console version. And I hope they include some kind of arrange mode more balanced than the arcade one, where K' and Raiden have been nerfed. But if they don't do this, then I'm just going to put all my efforts in find the keys to defeat K' and Raiden with characters I like. And if I can't because they so overpowered that is totally impossible win them without putting K' and Raiden in my team, then I'm not going to play this KOF anymore.

I don´t think it will come to that.
I remember in the old ones there were a lot of ridiculously broken characters like Heidern or Billy (I´m talking about the really old ones).
I consider the latest incarnations of KOF really balanced overall.  Of course, this is not MK with all the characters doing the exact same normal attacks (thank god), and KOF always had a wide variaty of characters, with really many diferent styles of attack like anti air thows, special counter throws, unblockable attacks, invencible attacks and ways to punish them (or not in same cases). It may be harder in some cases, but there is usually always a way to beat them.
After all the updates/patches are released (assuming this is not the only one), and the console version is available, we'll see what happens but I doubt it will be something sooooooo cryptic. My guess is you will get your fair share of bullshit moments, but nothing we KOF fans havent experienced before.


Tech Romancer

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Re: Bug, infinites, and balance issues and what we should do about it.
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2010, 12:25:28 AM »
*Scratches head*

How exactly is Mature juggling you for free after one EX move (a brainless infinite at that) balancing anything? Or Takuma gaining meter like that?

I don't think anyone is arguing that glitches are inherently bad or something that must always be removed. But if they don't add anything worthwhile to gameplay they should be gotten rid of. I think that's one of the big issues with some fighting games as they developed personally. People thought just because a glitch or something to circumvent the system was found, it was always "good" and "made the game deeper".

I think removing those things is a great start. I am somewhat curious why they didn't tweak stuff like raiden's kick a bit, but I think this is going in the right direction.

And BTW, 'they' don't take the US seriously not because of this stuff, they don't mainly because the US isn't that great at KOF. =/

Nagare_Ryouma

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Re: Bug, infinites, and balance issues and what we should do about it.
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2010, 12:49:56 AM »
I agree, infinites are bullshit no matter what.
If a character is really bad, I mean reaaaaallly useless, an infinite combo is not the way to fix it.
Change/add usefull attacks to improve him, but no infinites on my book.