Topic: Balance issues and constructive suggestions

[SAB-CA]

I like the "concept" of the new Vice more than the old one. I wouldn't mind seeing her get something else though. I really like her followup from CvS, where she'd snatch you from the air, and slam you back to the ground.

Hwa seems like he could use something to make "Drink Pink" more worth using, or just to make HIM more worth using in general.

I'm still confused by most Terry players, I have to say. Ex Burn Knuckle seems to be exactly what he needs to use most of the time, and EX Busta.W is is combo DM of choice. I guess he could use something to freshen up his meterless combos, though. Power Dunk, or maybe Fire Kick, offering free setup into EX Geyser.


Mai being the last person who I think could REALLY use something. I like the fact she has a strong Air game, so if she has a command normal similiar to Athena's, that puts her in an instant aerial state, that'd be fairly nice. Especially if it causes move cancel in HD mode, like Ash's command kicks do from his Flash kick. Failing that, just give her Kagero ^_^

That's probably the major things. Even people like Clark and Maxima I'm not too annoyed with as time goes on. Most of what I want back for them are just for nostalgic reasons, rather than actually seeing things as being NEEDED...

[MUSOLINI]

if i where a DEV, terry would ge his firekick. its a good juggkle starter, and easy to program cause only when the slide hits, the launcher hits. unlike his powercharge from 97 and the infinites they couldnt improve (cause they fucked the move up in 98). i would mind an air move for terry either, something like a ground pound from the air. like his power dunk but it smashes through to the ground.

and no, mai needs the most new moves out of anybody. shes needs her overhead so she can combo into air   P. also another command move like her slide or something similar would be nice as well. i also would mind her dp that she had from 95/98. also the rest of her air command moves from 2k2. this way shed actually maybe be fun to use, dont understand why people would like capcom style boring ass characters with almost no special moves or such. is it that attracttive and fun to be jumping around   'ing people? also an air kachosen would be dope as fuck, mai needs as much air shit as she can get imo. she could have been one of the most fun characters, but no they made her kofxii bitchmade style imo.

[SAB-CA]

Oh, when I said "Mai being the last person who I think could REALLY use something" I meant... "she's the last on this list", not "she doesn't need much", lol. Sorry if that read funny.

It would be great if she had something to "anywhere juggle" with after those Air CD hits. K' shouldn't have that over her! Air Kachosen (A = Horizontal,  C = 45 degree downward, and EX as multihit flaming horizontal thow) could end up being really nice. Would give her time to reach the ground, and maybe use Musasabi no Mai to catch on the way down, or jump back into the air, to combo into more air moves, or air throw...

[DarKaoZ]

How about Athena? I haven't really seen anything about Athena at all. I mean I remember seen some player user her as a keep away character and she was really annoying. But after that I haven't seen any good Athena at all.

I think King would benefit for some more moves or ways to continue her combos.

[SAB-CA]

How about Athena? I haven't really seen anything about Athena at all. I mean I remember seen some player user her as a keep away character and she was really annoying. But after that I haven't seen any good Athena at all.

I think King would benefit for some more moves or ways to continue her combos.

Did you ever see the Athena's who did the Psycho sword Midscreen HD mode juggles with teleport? Plus very safe use of Phoenix Arrow + ability to chase after fireballs and start combos with Close C. And she has a command throw! She seems to have the tools, and pretty much all the useful moves she's ever really had in KoF, so minus DM phoenix arrow, I don't know if she NEEDS anything, personally... (would love to play her to find out, lol.)

King is another character I can agree could use maybe 1 more move. I'd prefer it to be the return of Mirage Dance. I'm a big fan of Illusion Dance (one of the primary reasons I loved playing her back in the day), but I'd still prefer the mixup potential MD could give her more. EX version could just make it into one of those "Does enough damage to be a mini DM" moves, which would make it a good combo ender, and negate the scaling all her hits gain. Plus the moves inclusion would give more reason to play her up-close and personal (like in 2k2UM!), rather than just zonezonezone.

[DarKaoZ]

Nop, I haven't seen that Athena who did that combo. That is why I ask about Athena, I see she has all her great moves, yet I don't see her been played at all. I kinda wish her EX Phoenix Arrow was more like her Phoenix Arrow DM, maybe just repeat it twice and make it safe? Or just give her her Phoenix Arrow DM. But I have yet to see a good Athena recently.

I think King needs her Surprise Rose DP more, but her Mirage Dance would be awesome to have too. Besides they already have Surprise Rose sprites so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Her Illusion Dance was always awesome because of the backdash she does and it was always cool to watch. But she needs 1 more move, I don't care which one, but she feels a bit incomplete like Vice.

EDIT: You know what, maybe giving King the ability to do her Tornado Kick in the air will help her out greatly.

[SAB-CA]

Nop, I haven't seen that Athena who did that combo. That is why I ask about Athena, I see she has all her great moves, yet I don't see her been played at all. I kinda wish her EX Phoenix Arrow was more like her Phoenix Arrow DM, maybe just repeat it twice and make it safe? Or just give her her Phoenix Arrow DM. But I have yet to see a good Athena recently.

Lets see... Well, Athena at the end of this old KCE Vid takes out raiden nicely: http://youtu.be/kkJRV2aagho
Beginning of this vid:

Bah, cannot find the HD mode athena midscreen I remember. Maybe it was in one of the European live streams

2/3rds of her P.Arrows are already safe (weak and EX), so I dunno if changing the EX one would be worth much, other than just giving her something that might look more fun to play with.

Teleport cancel into throw mixup is great, wonderful fireball, solid runaway, an air move to HD cancel her Psycho swords into more damage, a DM that's a fantastic reversal, and great normal, or as an EX, corner combo insanity... Maybe she'd benifit more from a change in move properties.

As it stands, it seems like the only thing REALLY holding her back, is that she's not Shen, Maxima, K', Raiden, etc. They're all meter hogs, just like she can be, and her multi-hits probably scale her more than anyone would like.

I think King needs her Surprise Rose DP more, but her Mirage Dance would be awesome to have too. Besides they already have Surprise Rose sprites so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Her Illusion Dance was always awesome because of the backdash she does and it was always cool to watch. But she needs 1 more move, I don't care which one, but she feels a bit incomplete like Vice.

EDIT: You know what, maybe giving King the ability to do her Tornado Kick in the air will help her out greatly.

Normal Suprise Rose MIGHT work, but... There's just so much repetition in her moves already! Same with Aerial Tornado Kick. Now, if they use the "Foot stomp" part of Suprise Rose DM in order to give her a from-the-air aggressive "divekick", that's safe on block (non EX), I could see that working, though I'd be a lot like Athena's Phoenix Arrow..

I wouldn't even mind if they just gave her a "Reset Throw" similiar to Takuma's new move. No real damage on it's own, but lets you control things once you trap the opponent in your multi-hit ground move (Zanretsuken for him, Trap shot for her).

[asociale]

well maybe it s alreaby been said but i d really like to see all those juggles taken away.. i mean, at least SNK should put a limit on how many juggles/hits a character can actually do. Of course it`s just my opinion, maybe the majority of the ppl like those juggles....it`s just u know...a little boring.
I m not saying "take them all away",just put a limit...

[MUSOLINI]

athena is a beast, ive seen her in capable hands and it was scary. same way ralph might not seem that impressive, untill you see him in the hands of a pro. mai just lacks options and creativety, same for terry. which is really a shame imo. i feel that pretty much every character in this game is represented in their best and most fun versions ever. cept for terry and most def not for mai. mai needs to be flying everywhere, not just in her nm but in her combos as well.

taking juggles away is a nono, maybe a little bit for k, lizzy and kula. the rest of the cast needs meter to do all tyhose combos, which is all good imo. the only ones they need to tone down on the juggles are these 3 i mentioned, they need more bars for all those non corner juggles imo.

[SAB-CA]

asociale: Orochinagi.com forums had a bid of discussion on wanting to limit juggles, were you a part of that? I was kinda suprised to see it myself; I'm a person who hated the long, braindead-looking juggles in MvC2, because there was no reason a bunch of stupid normals and flight mode glitches should be so powerful and time-eating. And the crowd would get so hype... I hated them as much as I hated Mature and Joe's infinates in 1.0.

However, with XIII 1.1... personally, I was a bit turned off by them at first, but now, as I get into how much meter they take, layerd atop execution and timing... I find them exciting to see. On a gameplay design, and gameplay use level. I find their level of "Extention through meter use" perfectly answers all the times I questioned "WHY DOESN'T THAT WORK! Looks like it should!" in so many of the past games... often, they exceed my expectations!

I think this games Juggle and cancel systems ARE it's identity. They're what make it a refinement of 2k2, and not a lazy ripoff, gameplay wise. I feel they fit incredibly well with the "team" mentality of KoF, and make you know "This is a game where you need to learn to play ALL your characters!", unlike the way people play Marvel VS, or even KoF XI.

[MUSOLINI]

kof xiii has the best combo and juggle system in fighting game history. cept for some moves tha dont seem to connect (powergeyser or ex heyser juggles).

[DarKaoZ]

I don't see a problem with the Juggle system, but I do see a problem with the Scaling system. Not necessarily that it's bad, just that it could have some more fixing, specially in some characters moves. Yet I just talk for what I watch, I have no KOF13 machine close by, the closest one is like 4 to 5 hrs or so.

Lets see... Well, Athena at the end of this old KCE Vid takes out raiden nicely: http://youtu.be/kkJRV2aagho
Beginning of this vid:

Bah, cannot find the HD mode athena midscreen I remember. Maybe it was in one of the European live streams

Oh wow, I didn't see those matches before. Damn that is an awesome Athena and for the looks of it, she doesn't really need anything. I will definitely check her out ones I play 13. lol

[Rex Dart]

I don't think the game really needs new moves. Besides, when making the console version, spending time animating new moves isn't a smart allocation of resources. Learning that Terry got one new move is only going to get Terry fans excited. But announcing a new character, with the promise of a DLC character to come, would get lots of people talking and speculating.

Furthermore, the game is decently balanced already. If they just toned down the top two, or top four, it would be amazing. The console version shouldn't reinvent the wheel.

One of the few character I could see using some buffs would be Goro. Maybe give him back the auto-guard on his hcf+P moves. I mean, SNK was pretty generous with the autoguard on Maxima. It would really help him out I think.

[MUSOLINI]

tonming down top 4, and adding moves to mai and terry. aint that bad. add 3 to 6 or maybe even 9 console characters and its a go.

[asociale]

about the juggles i see your point (by You i mean u all),but to me they are too boring and too long... i agree there are not easy to do and all but u know when it comes to joe,yuri and co. i d like to leave the machine right away..i like the game and everything but when it comes to juggles i can t agree with that...i know it`s THE gameplay and without juggles is just 2k2 with new graphics, but to me too many juggles just bore the hell out of me

about the adding moves thing, i actually dont see why snk should do that

i ve never written on orochinagi