Author Topic: Balance issues and constructive suggestions  (Read 37901 times)

Zabel

  • Strongest Tiger
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #75 on: November 26, 2010, 01:46:25 PM »
No, the drop kicks are not fine. They do stupid damage, use no meter, set up more combos, can combo into each other, can combo after a CD counter, have anywhere juggle and have invincibility to go through anything (which means its very dangerous to zone him with fireballs etc). Aside from that BS they are also in the arsenal of a grappler, so, while the opponent is busy trying to avoid and bait drop kicks, which often times results in turtling and holding back, Raiden gets ample opportunities to get his grab and grab super on.
I agree about getting the DKs off of GCCD forgot about that. But everything else I disagree with, once again during the 16 seconds Raiden is charging RUSH HIS ASS DOWN we even saw in the latest set of videos a Iroi tear Raiden up that whole time *And he probably would have won had he finished his combo*. And he can't use his throws if he's using his command throws, if he does he has to give up that DK thus netting you another 16 seconds to get on him if he goes for the kicks again.

This is not about how much I know about Raiden.
You're trying to speak on why he should be nerfed and how and for dumb reasons at that. I'm pretty sure when it comes to discussing about why a character should be nerfed or changed having a basic knowledge of the character is a good idea.

It's about thanks to all these bunch of vids with K' and Raiden, people, some kof fans other potential console buyers/players, are saying "KOF XIII is a broken and unbalanced game,", and about if SNKPlaymore is going to try to fix this or not for console version and future arcade updates.
Those people would most likely be saying the same thing whether it was Raiden, K', Mai, or whoever at the top. For the most part they have very little knowledge of the game and I could personally give a fuck less about them. And your average consumer who's not that hardcore into fighting games most likely won't give a fuck either, after all look at Marvel.

the decision to nerf Raiden and how is not mine, so to know little or not about Raiden is not the point. what I'm saying is that Raiden is one of those 4 that need to be nerfed in some way to contribute a more balanced game. And I'm not the only one saying this.
Then why are you even bothering to discuss it in the first place. And other than Raiden and K' no one else needs to be changed, balance for the most part is a very overrated concept or else games like Marvel or 3S would not have been popular for as long as they have been.

Shiranui_ninja

  • Guest
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #76 on: November 26, 2010, 02:19:05 PM »
having a basic knowledge of the character is a good idea.

This exactly what I have about Raiden. But it's not enough for you. Everytime I try to explain my point of view, somebody say "you noob, shut up, you don't know a shit". Ok, is exactly what I'm going to do.
I'm to old for this, anyway.

But let me say this is not good way to help to grow KOF community.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 02:22:13 PM by Shiranui_ninja »

Diavle

  • Legendary Wolf
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #77 on: November 26, 2010, 03:32:47 PM »
I agree about getting the DKs off of GCCD forgot about that. But everything else I disagree with, once again during the 16 seconds Raiden is charging RUSH HIS ASS DOWN we even saw in the latest set of videos a Iroi tear Raiden up that whole time *And he probably would have won had he finished his combo*. And he can't use his throws if he's using his command throws, if he does he has to give up that DK thus netting you another 16 seconds to get on him if he goes for the kicks again.

Really? That's your idea of balance? Rush like an idiot for 16 seconds in hopes of taking the other guy out? Good luck with that against a good player.

And its not 16 seconds, he gets the anywhere juggle property earlier, at around the 12 second or so, so if he has meter, and he usually does because no one puts him first, he can 90% to 100% you at that point.

Not only was that Iori lucky to have landed the HD to "tear Raiden up the whole time" shorty after the round started but he also further proved Raiden's BS but getting the shit kicked out of him within a couple of seconds right after he dropped the combo. So yeah, nice example.

He can charge two DKs at a time so your point about losing charge for grabs doesn't make sense, not to mention his grab super is done with punches.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2010, 03:40:01 PM by Diavle »

Kane317

  • Administrator
  • Legendary Wolf
  • *****
  • Posts: 2990
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #78 on: November 26, 2010, 04:10:46 PM »
having a basic knowledge of the character is a good idea.

This exactly what I have about Raiden. But it's not enough for you. Everytime I try to explain my point of view, somebody say "you noob, shut up, you don't know a shit". Ok, is exactly what I'm going to do.
I'm to old for this, anyway.

But let me say this is not good way to help to grow KOF community.

Let's keep the discussion civil (both parties).  Anyways, why does it say guest under your name?

Aenthin

  • Scion of Flame
  • ****
  • Posts: 423
    • View Profile
    • Fuck Yeah! Ash Crimson
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #79 on: November 26, 2010, 04:42:47 PM »
Anyways, why does it say guest under your name?

It means the account was deleted, either by him or by a mod. x:

Zabel

  • Strongest Tiger
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #80 on: November 26, 2010, 07:33:41 PM »
Really? That's your idea of balance? Rush like an idiot for 16 seconds in hopes of taking the other guy out? Good luck with that against a good player.
And if you're an equally skilled player like we saw you can pull it off seeing how it is a drawback of the DKs.

And its not 16 seconds, he gets the anywhere juggle property earlier, at around the 12 second or so, so if he has meter, and he usually does because no one puts him first, he can 90% to 100% you at that point.
Most characters can kill or severely hurt you in 12 seconds especially characters like Iori, Shen,or Maxima. We've even seen some evidence that Dou is a bad match up for him. That's what we need more of, people trying to find ways to work with what we have instead of just complaining and hoping it get changed.

Not only was that Iori lucky to have landed the HD to "tear Raiden up the whole time" shorty after the round started but he also further proved Raiden's BS but getting the shit kicked out of him within a couple of seconds right after he dropped the combo. So yeah, nice example.
So your character argument is that seeing how the Iori player fucked up and paid for it rushing Raiden down isn't a viable strategy, natch.

He can charge two DKs at a time so your point about losing charge for grabs doesn't make sense, not to mention his grab super is done with punches.
He loses one DK he's lost a good chunk of damage. And his regular command throws are done with kicks, the Super should probably be the same in a path later on.

t3h mAsTarOth...!

  • Legendary Wolf
  • *****
  • Posts: 518
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2010, 03:30:04 AM »
u know what... at this point it's just a matter of opinion... some think it's unfair, some think it's fair... personally at this point i would even be fine with just reducing it to 1 DK at a time... (and maybe only LVL4 can be comboed afterwards...?)
KOFXIII - Raiden, Billy, Mai, Karate, Kim, Ralf, Ryo, Robert

SC 1-5 - Astaroth

SaMsTarOth t3h mAsTarOth of AsTarOth...!

TornAparT

  • New Challenger
  • *
  • Posts: 43
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2010, 11:56:51 PM »
Wouldn't Leona be a good counter to Raiden?  She can do a 100% combo with 1(or 2) bars right?

bzerk

  • Strongest Tiger
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2010, 12:16:12 AM »
maybe  it wouldn't irk players if raiden could only charge 1 DK at a time?  i think it would decrease his damage output in combos just enough to the point where it would be more like 50-60%  instead of 85-95%

Ashspiralingblood

  • Strongest Tiger
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2010, 02:03:01 PM »
One thing i notice and you guys probably notice it too, is atleast 3 out of the top 4 high tier characters build or all 4 build their stocks or meter really quickly it is amazing to see the advantage they got over other characters
Im probably wrong in my observation

MUSOLINI

  • Legendary Wolf
  • *****
  • Posts: 1352
  • PSN id: Musolini187 Netherlands
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2010, 02:16:38 PM »
nah, your wrong. the reason it looks like this is because they are the ones that constantly keep attacking, blocking opponents or opponents getting hit is your bar building extra quickly. when your the one on the receiving end your bars also fill slowly. you have to attack to build bar, and the top tiers attack better. even during hits they get more bar because they can use more normals, command normals and special attacks during 1 combo without using dc or dm bar. for example, terry can only do s.C, df+C, qcb+A as a combo without using meter. on the other hand k, kula, lizzy, kyo & andy can use more than that to combo, thus building more bar.  k as example, s.C, f+A, qcf+A, f+D, qcb+B or B, again qcb+B or D, dp+C, D. all this in 1 combo without using bar, shits unfair.

im also thinking using ioris command grab during combos might fill more bar, as it could potentially let you fdo more specials without using the dc or dm bar. ask the people playing though.
In the end, there can only be XIII.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p0XsEizwHA

Still mo sweet Chariots, keep on swingin'!

Eripio69

  • Scion of Flame
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2010, 02:27:50 PM »
I loled when I read about drawbacks on Raiden's drop kicks and that the solution is to rush Raiden down. Those kicks have to be seriously nerfed. End of discussion. They will spoil the fun for the casuals on the console version. Raiden is not handicapped enough in those 16 seconds to deserve 80% free of stock damage.


« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 02:30:26 PM by JohnCrawley »

TYRANNICAL

  • Strongest Tiger
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
  • Beast of Prey
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2010, 03:58:10 PM »
nah, your wrong. the reason it looks like this is because they are the ones that constantly keep attacking, blocking opponents or opponents getting hit is your bar building extra quickly. when your the one on the receiving end your bars also fill slowly. you have to attack to build bar, and the top tiers attack better. even during hits they get more bar because they can use more normals, command normals and special attacks during 1 combo without using dc or dm bar. for example, terry can only do s.C, df+C, qcb+A as a combo without using meter. on the other hand k, kula, lizzy, kyo & andy can use more than that to combo, thus building more bar.  k as example, s.C, f+A, qcf+A, f+D, qcb+B or B, again qcb+B or D, dp+C, D. all this in 1 combo without using bar, shits unfair.

im also thinking using ioris command grab during combos might fill more bar, as it could potentially let you fdo more specials without using the dc or dm bar. ask the people playing though.
I thought at first everyone was going to burning meter for big damage but things didn't work out that way. Everyone in XIII got new juggles but it just came down to superior tools. Like K's example vs Leona who can now do crBX2>overhead>special/V-Slasher.   K' still have the superior tools under his belt.

One of my major gripes is Liz and her damn juggles and her ultra safe moves.  K's midscreen juggles are a bit much but Liz is crazy shit. No one should be getting juggles like that for no meter.

I would say make the characters do (non meter)combos like whatever>command normal>special ender but then that'll homogenized the game and we'll get something like SSFIV and everything being jab jab jab>whatever.

Raiden's Drop Kick is retarded.  In version 1.0 he had the fastest non meter way to kill anyone. And on top of that it does about 60% guard bar damage.  I would say have SNKP rework some of the damage on some moves and rework damage scaling.

I forgot one thing: Iori.  This dude CANNOT get a knockdown without burning meter.  WTF.  I'm not even asking for an untechable KD here.  Why can't get he get a knockdown midscreen?  Everyone else in the game can do it.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 04:13:48 PM by TYRANNICAL »
KOF XIII:
-K'/EX Kyo/EX Iori
-K'/Andy/Kyo
-Benimaru(Duo Lon)/Robert/Takuma(Iori)

Might controls everything.

Diavle

  • Legendary Wolf
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2010, 04:35:58 PM »
One of my major gripes is Liz and her damn juggles and her ultra safe moves.  K's midscreen juggles are a bit much but Liz is crazy shit. No one should be getting juggles like that for no meter.

Raiden's Drop Kick is retarded.  In version 1.0 he had the fastest non meter way to kill anyone. And on top of that it does about 60% guard bar damage.  I would say have SNKP rework some of the damage on some moves and rework damage scaling.

I forgot one thing: Iori.  This dude CANNOT get a knockdown without burning meter.  WTF.  I'm not even asking for an untechable KD here.  Why can't get he get a knockdown midscreen?  Everyone else in the game can do it.

Yeah Liz is ridiculous, being able to start her crap off of a command grab and counter move is just overkill, not to mention she can juggle with two DMs at a time (corner). She can't dominate like K' because her overall arsenal is inferier but yeah, she definitely needs tweeking.

Why do you mention v1.0 for Raiden? He is exactly the same in v1.1.

Overall I'm glad how different Iori is compared to the way he was previously, the less shotos the better. Not being able to score knockdowns doesn't seem to be hurting his game in the least and is a nice contrast to Kyo. The guy is a solid A class character.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 04:51:19 PM by Diavle »

krazykone123

  • Guest
Re: Balance issues and constructive suggestions
« Reply #89 on: December 01, 2010, 04:57:55 PM »
I loled when I read about drawbacks on Raiden's drop kicks and that the solution is to rush Raiden down.

Well judging from the videos rushing Raiden down while he's charging provides the most effective results, you guys need to stop skipping all the Raiden/K' videos because you're missing out on some good stuff.

Quote
Raiden is not handicapped enough in those 16 seconds to deserve 80% free of stock damage.

He is handicapped, but the problem is that Raiden can make up for that with his really strong normals, priority, and still be able to zone out projectiles with Poison Mist, and do combos like cr.X/St.X + hcbx2+AC.

Both lvl. 4 kicks with a st.A in the middle do somewhere around 55% raw damage, and if the Raiden player has the extra meter/drive he can continue with...

db~f+AC, qcb+C, (DC) db~f+AC, qcb+Ax2, dp+P to do the additional 40~42% damage

anyway if they were to nerf Raiden, imo they should
- Get rid of his ability to do a lvl. 4 dropkick after a GCA, that's bullshit
- Cut the amount of meter he gets from the lvl. 4 dropkick on hit in half, way too much
- Nerf his EX tackle, it re-juggles the opponent in the corner which is the ONLY reason why he can pull off that extra 40~42% without doing a Neomax, they should make that the opponent falls faster after X amount of juggle attacks (doesn't happen when you use EX tackle in succession), it'll force the Raiden player to sacrifice more meter/drive to take you out

There's probably more but I think those are the most important nerfs but won't severely cripple him imo.
 

« Last Edit: December 01, 2010, 05:02:49 PM by krazykone123 »