Author Topic: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread  (Read 513643 times)

Diavle

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #735 on: October 14, 2010, 08:33:43 PM »
Zabel

I play 3rd Strike and main Sean. Any of the characters you face with him may as well be top tier. Regarless, I still main him and enjoying doing so. So, really, fighting against odds isn't a problem for me. It being not a problem though doesn't mean that I enjoy it, because I know that I would be enjoying the game far more if I didn't have to fight Ken, Yun or Chun Li for the billionth time.

Now, this ratio system, its a system I find interesting and consider it to have potential. Why? For the simple fact that it encourages variation and disperses tiers. In this way they are still usable but you won't have teams made entirely of them.

The latest batch of vids have  (intentional) variaton, yes, but do you remember the previous ones? Where every match had Raiden and K' on both sides and ppl started skipping forward cuz it got so boring? Yeah.

Again, this is how I would like to see the game played. Your opinion clearly differes but don't act like it is more informed or speaks of some sort of higher experience.

You prefer the game without ratios and that is how it will most likely be played, however, if you have played fighters before (which I'm guessing you have by the way you down talk) then you know how things will turn out at character selection. You're okay with that but I'm not when there is a simple system available that may aid with that.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 08:38:49 PM by Diavle »

Kane317

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #736 on: October 14, 2010, 08:52:25 PM »
How has XIII been for him? A success or failure?

A success I suppose, but I don't look at his books or anything.

The ratio system you guys at AI have planned sounds promising, but a little odd. Promoting or forcing other players being played is a great thing, though I wonder if this will make people get by with the lower tiers instead of immersing them in the characters.  I was kind of hoping someone somewhere in the world to try to do a "who's the best ______ player in the region" using the lesser used characters. Too bad it's a hard thing to expect thanks to tier whorring. But hope that works out for the best over there.

Well first of all, we're not asking NEW players to participate.  We're asking the regulars that's played it for 3 months, has had tournaments, played each other hundreds and hundred of hours.  Everyone here has already shifted off of their original three characters and tested and tried 4-5 hours since the beginning.  So if we have another tournament with the exact same ppl we play every week, it's pretty much going to be the same result save a few changed places etc... We get tired of seeing Reynald or John winning all the time etc, especially with the same characters.  Now with this system, it's like a nod (like I said before), "we know you can win with X, Y, and Z, let's see what you can do with A, B and C" and promotes people to expand out of their comfort zone as well.  

If you're winning all the time, you don't learn as much as when you're losing.  This ratio makes the people who lose most of the time with different characters still learn, while it makes the top tier character users learn new stuff as well.

@Zabel

I'm going to take a approach in this discussion--I'm just curious, why do you think the Japanese proposed the ratio system?  I hate to insinuate, but by extension are you just saying Japanese players are just whiners?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 09:17:50 PM by Kane317 »

Cibernetico

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #737 on: October 14, 2010, 08:58:01 PM »
Maybe it's just me, but I feel that maybe all this whining about the characters is due to the fact that only a select few of people on this site have access to the game. Something tells me that if the game was widely distributed to the point where the majority of us could play it, I doubt we would see any of the whining we see going on here and other places. Instead, we would see other strategies and the majority of the cast being used instead of it being just confined to the only few characters we always see.

Trust me, I would be one of the people who wouldn't even care about the Raiden and K(then again, I don't care about the talk of them anyway) discussions and instead would be trying to focus on playing well with Ryo, King and Ralf.

But like I said, maybe all this negative talk is just going around because only one major arcade has it while the rest of the ones we know of in North America aren't getting much input from the players there.

Zabel

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #738 on: October 14, 2010, 09:08:51 PM »
Zabel

I play 3rd Strike and main Sean. Any of the characters you face with him may as well be top tier. Regarless, I still main him and enjoying doing so. So, really, fighting against odds isn't a problem for me. It being not a problem though doesn't mean that I enjoy it, because I know that I would be enjoying the game far more if I didn't have to fight Ken, Yun or Chun Li for the billionth time.


Now, this ratio system, its a system I find interesting and consider it to have potential. Why? For the simple fact that it encourages variation and disperses tiers. In this way they are still usable but you won't have teams made entirely of them.
It doesn't increase variety, it will once again lead to people playing pretty much the same teams just with different characters.

The latest batch of vids have  (intentional) variaton, yes, but do you remember the previous ones? Where every match had Raiden and K' on both sides and ppl started skipping forward cuz it got so boring? Yeah.
Holy shit, KoF matches where two characters are in every vid, it's like it's never happened before.

Again, this is how I would like to see the game played. Your opinion clearly differes but don't act like it is more informed or speaks of some sort of higher experience.
My opinion is informed because you clearly know nothing about whats happened before in other KoF games.

You prefer the game without ratios and that is how it will most likely be played, however, if you have played fighters before (which I'm guessing you have by the way you down talk) then you know how things will turn out at character selection. You're okay with that but I'm not when there is a simple system available that may aid with that.
It won't aid nothing and you'll go right back to complaining about it.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 09:22:34 PM by Zabel »

THE ANSWER

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #739 on: October 14, 2010, 09:13:44 PM »
My God! KOF XIII being compared to MvC2!?!?! one of the most (if not the most) unbalanced games ever made? This has to stop.

@Zabel: I like your straight forward approach.

IMO this point system should not apply to the US at all, I'm sure Japan has hundreds of people playing the game in Tokyo alone so this type of system can work in a way there. We struggle to get 12 players here at AI, I really don't see the point of doing this but I'm down for whatever I will participate for FUN AND KICKS since I don't have the TIME or MONEY to lear 0,1,2 point characters at the moment maybe when console comes out I go to AI once MAYBE twice a week now and that only helps me to brush off the rust of my main team.



Who deleted my post?
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Cibernetico

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #740 on: October 14, 2010, 09:17:35 PM »
Ill tell you who. That damn sasquatch!

Kane317

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #741 on: October 14, 2010, 09:18:35 PM »
Who deleted my post?

The only other mod; you wrote it twice did you not?  One was longer, and one was shorter.  I deleted the shorter one because it was the exact same thing as far as I read.  Was it different?  EDIT: I guess it was a duplicate post, I stand corrected Oscar =(

It doesn't increase variety, it will once again lead to people playing pretty much the same teams just with different characters.

Isn't that the point?   It's not about, you can't use this characters FOREVER!  It's you can still have character X as your backup, but here's a reason to learn someone new as well.

My God! KOF XIII being compared to MvC2!?!?! one of the most (if not the most) unbalanced games ever made? This has to stop.

Yeah when I read that, I felt like it hit a new low.  It's not MvC2, nothing will be like that again hopefully.  Moving on, nothing to see.

IMO this point system should not apply to the US at all, I'm sure Japan has hundreds of people playing the game in Tokyo alone so this type of system can work in a way there. We struggle to get 12 players here at AI, I really don't see the point of doing this but I'm down for whatever I will participate for FUN AND KICKS since I don't have the TIME or MONEY to lear 0,1,2 point characters at the moment maybe when console comes out I go to AI once MAYBE twice a week now and that only helps me to brush off the rust of my main team.

We're proposing it for just the next tourney, the next 10 days, and then on casuals we can do WHATEVER we want so don't worry it's not going to break you.  Furthermore, we said it already, the ratio system is unofficial, nobody HAS TO participate--if you feel that ratio system does not serve you well you can still join the tourney and choose any character.  If you do the ratio system, it'll just be mentioned in the forums or commentary.  This isn't a separate but equal situation lol.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2010, 11:52:37 PM by Kane317 »

GoldenGlove

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #742 on: October 14, 2010, 11:55:42 PM »
What's up guys. First post here, so first off I'd like to say thanks to everyone here for all of the awesome info and videos you guys have compiled/created! This really is the premiere online KoF community.

Now then, just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on this ratio idea. As a ubiquitous competitive standard, I think it's ridiculous. In a tournament setting, I think everyone should be able to use whichever tools are available to them to give themselves the best chance to win, and limiting character selection simply because you don't want to deal with certain tactics or teams goes against that. Sure, K' and Raiden are annoying and I'm sure I'll complain about them when I inevitably fall victim to their shennanigans, but I've also seen plenty of players work around these characters and beat them with a variety of characters. Is the ratio system really encouraging character variety or is it simply a reactionary measure founded on frustration? This isn't to say I "know better than Japan" or anything. Obviously they're leagues ahead of anyone in terms of skill level. However, recall that Japan commonly engages in plenty of other practices widely regarded as anti-competitive here in America, such as single-elimination brackets and character locking. There's just a cultural gulf when it comes to the nature of competition, and I happen to fall on the opposing side.

All that being said, I think AI's implementation of the ratio system as explained by Kane makes perfect sense. In their case it's more of a gentleman's agreement than a hard rule, a situation where a particular community determined amongst itself how they could most enjoy the game, while outsiders who show up and just want to play K' because they like his sunglasses are free to do so. I'm just saying it's not a rule I would support at a national-level competition (something I greatly hope XIII ends up garnering).

Ultimately I just support people playing whichever characters they want for whatever reasons they want. Those who want to win by any means necessary are likely to gravitate towards top tiers, and that's fine. Others may choose characters they are comfortable with or enjoy, and they may end up choosing top tiers as well, who's to say. I mean, maybe there's a player out there who's always been challenged execution-wise, but finds that the technical ease of Raiden's "hold B/D, release at opportune moment" gameplan finally allows him to have fun with the game. Should he be punished for his idiosyncracies as a player by being forced to compose the rest of his team from 0-ratio characters he may or may not have any interest in?

As others have stated, it's going to to be the players who play the characters they enjoy but are also driven to win who are going to rise to the top and show us the really hype stuff. They'll be the ones proposing strategies to beat S tiers rather than rules to gimp them. And I don't think there'll be any shortage of those players when the console version hits. Hell, I plan on being one myself. Way too many interesting characters to know what team I'll be running for sure, but right now I'm big on Ash/Benimaru/Iori, aka Team Handsome Fighters Never Lose Battles (guess who I play in SF...).

This post has gone on way too long, but I feel the need to mention one last thing. The MvC2 hate makes me sad. Sure it's incredibly unbalanced, but it's also managed to sustain a large community for several years with unmatched levels of hype. If XIII achieves a fraction of MvC2's success, balanced or not, I will be ecstatic.

See you folks around!

Diavle

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #743 on: October 15, 2010, 12:33:13 AM »
Quote
A success I suppose, but I don't look at his books or anything.

You knew what he thought of SF4 so I figured may be he talked to you about regretting getting XIII or not.

Thanks.

Quote
1. It doesn't increase variety, it will once again lead to people playing pretty much the same teams just with different characters.

2. Holy shit, KoF matches where two characters are in every vid, it's like it's never happened before.

3. My opinion is informed because you clearly know nothing about whats happened before in other KoF games.

4. It won't aid nothing and you'll go right back to complaining about it.

1. Different characters means variety, thanks for agreeing I guess.

2. Exactly, that's the point. To do something about that.

3. Guess this is the part where I'm supposed to lay out how long I've been into the series and argue about my opinion being better than your opinion. Lets assume I just did that, we had a back and forth and eventually came to the conclusion that neither is going to change the other's mind.

4. Won't know unless we try. All I know is that the KCE vids with no Raiden and K' were a heck of a lot more entertaining to watch than the previous ones with them. And the latest video posted in the vid section showing version 1.1 gameplay has been the best one for a while. There you can sorta see the ratio system in action since teams only had K' and the other characters were of a wide variety. So they used one top tier and the rest were highs and mids. Matches were awesome.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 12:37:26 AM by Diavle »

TYRANNICAL

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #744 on: October 15, 2010, 01:09:04 AM »
2. Exactly, that's the point. To do something about that.
So you're totally up for a ratio system added to the other KOF games to force players to use characters they don't like/don't give a shit up about to stop people from whining?

Coolio.  Yo, Kane.  I don't like Chin.  Time to switch up to make me happy.

A good amount of players playing the same characters.... That happens in every game.  On of top of I LOVE the outright ignoring that videos that have other characters being played well are receiving.  There's variety being shown already.  But I guess that doesn't matter now does it?  Nope.  Now being one of the best characters in a game is a bad thing. 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:17:12 AM by TYRANNICAL »
KOF XIII:
-K'/EX Kyo/EX Iori
-K'/Andy/Kyo
-Benimaru(Duo Lon)/Robert/Takuma(Iori)

Might controls everything.

Diavle

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #745 on: October 15, 2010, 01:32:26 AM »
So you're totally up for a ratio system added to the other KOF games to force players to use characters they don't like/don't give a shit up about to stop people from whining?

Coolio.  Yo, Kane.  I don't like Chin.  Time to switch up to make me happy.

A good amount of players playing the same characters.... That happens in every game.  On of top of I LOVE the outright ignoring that videos that have other characters being played well are receiving.  There's variety being shown already.  But I guess that doesn't matter now does it?  Nope.  Now being one of the best characters in a game is a bad thing.  

That's not it at all, nobody is restraining you from using any specific character. Its mainly so that top tiers don't get lumped together.

As for variety in recent vids, I already mentioned it in my last post so not sure what you're getting at.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:39:46 AM by Diavle »

Zabel

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #746 on: October 15, 2010, 01:58:28 AM »
1. Different characters means variety, thanks for agreeing I guess.

2. Exactly, that's the point. To do something about that.
There is no reason to do anything about it because once again people will do this to the end of time.

3. Guess this is the part where I'm supposed to lay out how long I've been into the series and argue about my opinion being better than your opinion. Lets assume I just did that, we had a back and forth and eventually came to the conclusion that neither is going to change the other's mind.
You should because I actually am quite enjoying this little debate

4. Won't know unless we try. All I know is that the KCE vids with no Raiden and K' were a heck of a lot more entertaining to watch than the previous ones with them. And the latest video posted in the vid section showing version 1.1 gameplay has been the best one for a while. There you can sorta see the ratio system in action since teams only had K' and the other characters were of a wide variety. So they used one top tier and the rest were highs and mids. Matches were awesome.

Then why were't you watching SBO? If I remember correctly at Top 8 the only character on every team was K', every other team had a completely different setup other than K'.

That's not it at all, nobody is restraining you from using any specific character. Its mainly so that top tiers don't get lumped together.
A ratio system is restraining people from choosing who they want. Lets say for instance I want to play K', Raiden, Elizabeth *A team since day one I was planning on playing actually* I'm shit out of luck.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 02:00:06 AM by Zabel »

Kane317

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #747 on: October 15, 2010, 02:34:08 AM »
I think you guys are reading into this whole a little too much.  I think GoldenGlove said it best (btw, welcome to DC and introduce yourself in the meet and greet forum), it's more like a Gentlemen's Agreement to keep thinks interesting as the game will get stale playing the same characters all the time.

Coolio.  Yo, Kane.  I don't like Chin.

Cool, sorry you feel that way.

However, just felt like we should spice it up, I wasn't the only person feeling this way too, Reynald suggested it.  

A ratio system is restraining people from choosing who they want. Lets say for instance I want to play K', Raiden, Elizabeth *A team since day one I was planning on playing actually* I'm shit out of luck.

You don't have to play with the ratio system, choose the characters of your choosing.  It was more for the regulars that have played hours upon hours against the same people.

FataCon

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #748 on: October 15, 2010, 02:43:48 AM »
Coolio.  Yo, Kane.  I don't like Chin.

Cool, sorry you feel that way.

However, just felt like we should spice it up, I wasn't the only person feeling this way too, Reynald suggested it.  

i think tyrannical was saying this jokingly to prove a prior point. i could be wrong though.

also, play more duolon! i'm thinking of dropping leona because i'm pretty terrible with her, but i can't find a solid third that i think i would enjoy playing. having lots of fun with king and vice lately though.

TYRANNICAL

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #749 on: October 15, 2010, 03:02:43 AM »
I'm not against doing ratios for fun.  That's fine.  This is what bothers me about the ratio system:
-It "promotes" variety by FORCE aka taking choice away.  
-It doesn't promote learning how to overcome playing vs superior characters.

That's why if it's became a standard, I'm not for it.  No one is FORCING you to play who you do.  Kane says, It'll get stale playing the same characters all the time.  And who's fault is that?  No one but the player.  Getting good at games takes dedication.  It's a long road to master your character(s).  Improvement is a long process.  Players are constantly learning, changing, evolving. You can play the same matchups 40 times in a row and you can't predict everything that will happen.  You're supposed to see the same characters in action multiple times.  That's the learning process.  

No one is forcing your hand here.  Kane himself admits it, you don't have to use the ratio system.  Diavle says it's to prevent lumping top tiers together.  If a dude wants to run top tier, why shouldn't he?  Are you going to stand against him if he chooses to run low tier as well? My point is: Everyone has seen it.  A variety of characters in play.  It's happening NOW. Without a ratio system.  Players are naturally picking different characters.

KOF XIII:
-K'/EX Kyo/EX Iori
-K'/Andy/Kyo
-Benimaru(Duo Lon)/Robert/Takuma(Iori)

Might controls everything.