Author Topic: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread  (Read 513610 times)

l2slythe

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #765 on: October 16, 2010, 04:54:19 AM »
Because it's based on character USAGE.  In other words if enough Clark players showed up and won, he'd be ranked at 5.

yeah i know man -_- just wanted to hear what The Answer had to say about it.
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Kane317

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #766 on: October 16, 2010, 06:20:35 AM »
No because it's an idiotic decision in the first place and all it's doing is punishing people for choosing teams they want to play.

I respect your opinion but that's only one way of looking among many other perspectives.  I could say it's rewarding people to try new characters, giving them a reason to try someone new.  It's not always so definitive.

Going back to my earlier question, do you think the Japanese improvised this system because they were just whining about top tier characters and didn't know how to defeat them?  Surely there's a reasoning behind the thinking of the Japanese top players.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 06:41:10 AM by Kane317 »

JeremyH

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #767 on: October 16, 2010, 07:42:08 AM »
Do we actually know who suggested the ratio system?  If it was from someone accredited I'm sure we should continue to discuss, but if it was just some whiner who posted on their boards, should we really be validating it?

dreamcancel needs a japanese translator something fierce

Kane317

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #768 on: October 16, 2010, 09:56:51 AM »
Do we actually know who suggested the ratio system?  If it was from someone accredited I'm sure we should continue to discuss, but if it was just some whiner who posted on their boards, should we really be validating it?

dreamcancel needs a japanese translator something fierce

It's legit.  I remember after 1-2 years of XI release (and XII was nowhere in sight), the Japanese devise a ratio system for XI to makes things interesting and keeps things fresh.  They also based it off of usage, Madman has the old ratio system for XI reposted on his site.

My question to Zabel was rhetorical.

Shiranui_ninja

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #769 on: October 16, 2010, 10:46:42 AM »
Do we actually know who suggested the ratio system?  If it was from someone accredited I'm sure we should continue to discuss, but if it was just some whiner who posted on their boards, should we really be validating it?

The information comes from Professor of MMcafe. Looks like this system has been proposed among japanese KOFXIII players. I guess he knows well the arcade scene in Japan, so that's why he can tell it. But don't know exactly who, where and how many. So we should take this ratio system like something less dramatic, and let AI people play in the way the players want.

Zabel

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #770 on: October 16, 2010, 12:54:30 PM »
No because it's an idiotic decision in the first place and all it's doing is punishing people for choosing teams they want to play.

I respect your opinion but that's only one way of looking among many other perspectives.  I could say it's rewarding people to try new characters, giving them a reason to try someone new.  It's not always so definitive.
It's not rewarding people for trying new characters at all, please tell me how in anyway it's rewarding to play a new character under a ratio system.

venusandeve

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #771 on: October 16, 2010, 05:32:40 PM »
cuz now you get a bit more breathing space to try a new character instead of just being trampled by K/Raiden/Betty.

and because the other guy is using non-S tier characters along with the rest of the team, the gameplay becomes more fun. all tiers get used because S tier is bound to 0 tier etc. seriously, anybody who plays a game with such a desperate NEED to win should invest more time in a career or something. it's a game FFS.
KoF XIII... Needs more Angel, Vanessa and Blue Mary! ^^

MUSOLINI

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #772 on: October 16, 2010, 08:25:40 PM »
the funny thing is raiden would still be fucking good but fair if they just tone the damage of the dropkicks. if they fix  k and scale lizzy's dp juggle damage and we got a damn balanced game.

also i dont see how the tierlist canbe complete, theres soo many characters that havent been used to their potentials that theres bound to be a few moves in the tierings.
In the end, there can only be XIII.

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TYRANNICAL

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #773 on: October 16, 2010, 09:02:33 PM »
cuz now you get a bit more breathing space to try a new character instead of just being trampled by K/Raiden/Betty.
Too bad players lost to others characters as well but I forgot we're talking about KOF.  Unless you're top you don't matter. D:
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it's a game FFS.
I agree.  Why are people so uptight about tiers again?  It's just a game.  Why does it matter who people are playing?
KOF XIII:
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-K'/Andy/Kyo
-Benimaru(Duo Lon)/Robert/Takuma(Iori)

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MUSOLINI

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #774 on: October 16, 2010, 09:16:27 PM »
people play for fun, indeed. but when you play at high level you wanna play characters you like instead of characters that are high tier. when you basically dont stand a chance at winning even though both your skill levels are identical, but you play everyone and opponent plays only high tier ittl become boring real quick. you can say what you want, but raiden and k do look too strong. i have always played kof at a high level, youd like some variation even if you play competetivelly. i dont think anybody would want to play with 2 spots already taken by raiden and k if you wanna stand a good winning chance.

raiden and k look way better than um krauser and 95 kyo or 96 iori (well, maybe not as good as 96 iori though, but 96 was a shit kof anyway). 97 had some balance issues, but it had at least 10 viable high tier characters that made it playable and one of the best kofs for me personally. 98 is even better in everything including balance.
In the end, there can only be XIII.

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Kane317

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #775 on: October 16, 2010, 09:19:44 PM »
It's not rewarding people for trying new characters at all, please tell me how in anyway it's rewarding to play a new character under a ratio system.

Some people find trying anything new in life refreshing.  Another way you can look at it from a competitive standpoint is giving them the reason to beat their opponent with a wider selection of characters.  The extreme case is beating your opponent with FULL random, wouldn't you agree that shows more skill?

For the third time, why do you think the Japanese decided to do so?  

I agree.  Why are people so uptight about tiers again?  

I'm actually going agree with you but probably for a different reason.  Tiers really should be objective, the list of tools they have are facts (character A can do more damage than character B.  One has a consistent anti air one doesn't etc...)  Yes you can use a lower tier character to win so it doesn't matter anyways.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 09:44:22 PM by Kane317 »

Zabel

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #776 on: October 16, 2010, 10:18:54 PM »
Some people find trying  anything new in life refreshing.
If they really wanna try new characters they'll just do it, they don't need some system to promote it.

Another way you can look at it from a competitive standpoint is giving them the reason to beat their opponent with a wider selection of characters.  The extreme case is beating your opponent with FULL random, wouldn't you agree that shows more skill?
Once again I if I want to beat someone with a wider selection of characters I'll just do it regardless of whether or not a ratio system is in place.

For the third time, why do you think the Japanese decided to do so?
Okay I'll answer, I don't give a fuck why the Japanese decided and I probably won't be able to figure out until someone translates a couple of blog post or something. They may be doing it for the same reasons as you or they may be doing it for something completely different. Until I reach the SBO level or start traveling *Former I doubt extremely*.

GoldenGlove

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #777 on: October 16, 2010, 10:23:14 PM »
people play for fun, indeed. but when you play at high level you wanna play characters you like instead of characters that are high tier. when you basically dont stand a chance at winning even though both your skill levels are identical, but you play everyone and opponent plays only high tier ittl become boring real quick. you can say what you want, but raiden and k do look too strong. i have always played kof at a high level, youd like some variation even if you play competetivelly. i dont think anybody would want to play with 2 spots already taken by raiden and k if you wanna stand a good winning chance.

I see where you're coming from. Nobody wants to be forced to pick up characters they'd rather not play just to compete. The thing is, that's exactly what the ratio system forces top-tier players to do. It's a very real character restriction against top tier players being used to counteract an imaginary character restriction against low tier players (the unproven assumption that low tiers cannot beat top tiers).

cuz now you get a bit more breathing space to try a new character instead of just being trampled by K/Raiden/Betty.

and because the other guy is using non-S tier characters along with the rest of the team, the gameplay becomes more fun. all tiers get used because S tier is bound to 0 tier etc. seriously, anybody who plays a game with such a desperate NEED to win should invest more time in a career or something. it's a game FFS.

Implying that anyone who plays top tiers does so because they feel a need to win makes all kinds of unsupported assumptions about top-tier players. It's possible (probably, even?) that they simply enjoy those characters. Even if they are playing them purely to win, who cares? Some people gain the most enjoyment from the game by winning. If you want to win with a particular team, then pursue mastery of those characters and learn to beat top tiers with them. Or find players whose idea of what makes the game enjoyable is in sync with your own, but don't force that idea upon others who don't share it. Especially not with rationale like "It's just a game."

I infer from your avatar that you play Ash. Suppose I argued that because Ash has a DM which seals the opponent's special moves, he should in the spirit of fairness be disallowed from using any special moves himself. If you object, then you obviously need to stop caring about winning so much and realize it's just a game, right? Of course not, because it's a ridiculous rule that if passed might increase my enjoyment of the game, but would greatly compromise yours. In reality I should just man up and deal with my special moves being sealed, just like people should man up and deal with top tiers.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 10:36:48 PM by GoldenGlove »

Diavle

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #778 on: October 16, 2010, 10:48:50 PM »
I infer from your avatar that you play Ash. Suppose I argued that because Ash has a DM which seals the opponent's special moves, he should in the spirit of fairness be disallowed from using any special moves himself. If you object, then you obviously need to stop caring about winning so much and realize it's just a game, right? Of course not, because it's a ridiculous rule that if passed might increase my enjoyment of the game, but would greatly compromise yours. In reality I should just man up and deal with my special moves being sealed, just like people should man up and deal with top tiers.

Its not like that at all, those are character specific unique moves that do nothing game breaking. Going by your example if I use Ryo and you use Mai I shouldn't be able to use his invincible dp because she has no dp. And you also wouldn't be able to use Kensou's ability to back dash after Kensou's normals or break Andy's HCF+K Garou MOTW style because no other character can do it in the game.

Same thing with Garou MOTW, characters had things specific to them. Like Hokutomaru could double jump, Dong and Jenet could super jump, Gato and Hotaru could change their direction mid-air. Unique stuff but not game breaking.

The point is that none of these, unique and character specific moves/properties, give them an unfair advantage and propel them to top tier.

GoldenGlove

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Re: The King of Fighters XIII General Discussion Thread
« Reply #779 on: October 16, 2010, 11:06:35 PM »

Its not like that at all, those are character specific unique moves that do nothing game breaking. Going by your example if I use Ryo and you use Mai I shouldn't be able to use his invincible dp because she has no dp. And you also wouldn't be able to use Kensou's ability to back dash after Kensou's normals or break Andy's HCF+K Garou MOTW style because no other character can do it in the game.

Exactly. The ratio system is the rationale you just described applied on a team-centric rather than character-centric basis. They use the same logic and attempt the same thing: to eliminate perceived advantages. They draw an arbitrary line in the sand, saying "x is acceptable but y is not." I guess it just comes down to differing definitions of game breaking. Your definition appears to be "very powerful", which top tiers certainly are. My definition of game breaking is "literally unbeatable", which top tiers certainly aren't.