Street Fighter X Tekken

[Proto Cloud]

It ain't like that, I just thought the contrary since you said "Who cares?" instead of "I agree" or "I concur, old chap". ,(Q.0)>Ú˜

Don't worry bro, you da bess, no matter what Xxenace says.

[Mr Bakaboy]

Hahaha, no.  But honestly your comment pretty much shows what everyone thinks about Capcom at that point.

They think Capcom puts out one mediocre game, and that will cause everything to go to hell and get other games more play.  What makes people think players won't just ignore the mediocre game and just go back to status quo before it came out?

If SFxT turns out to bomb, which it might...it really won't do anything.  Worst case, Capcom gets less rash putting out FGs, but that's not gonna stop other companies into doing their thing.  There's not that much other new blood that'd want to join the ring and we have a ton of other games to play which we were already playing before.  But if SFxT goes down, KOFXIII isn't gonna get any more play than it is for now, especially since I doubt anyone is playing SFxT RELIGIOUSLY.  No one's a pure SFxT player right now.  If it goes, they just default back to the other game(s) they were playing before it came out.

While people can underestimate Capcom's influence on everything, it seems a lot of people really overestimate their influence.  Regardless of what you think of them, one bad FG from them won't dry up the FG market, nor will it be anything of note if it DID happen.  If Capcom went down now, KOFXIII wouldn't suddenly be the King of Games.  People would still play AE and Marvel 3 and the older Capcom stuff like nothing happened.

It hasn't been just one bad. SFIVAE had to have a free update cause of the backlash for how unbalanced it got. MVC3 got a lot of backlash. UMVC3 got a lot of hate for early release (to which I don't understand cause if you hated MVC3 and UMVC3 improves at budget price then that should be a good thing but whatever). SF x TK is just another complaint of recent.

I'm not saying the FGC is going to hell. Like you said I see a slowdown. Probably more severe then you think. Capcom, as far as I can think of doesn't have any game 'cept Darkstalkers coming and that isn't 100%. Personally I think the FGC might see less big title releases for a second and more smaller title like Skullgirls for a quick second. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe in 2-3 years we might see SFV or whatever, but I think the companies see the anger in the FGC right now and might back off a little. I think how the FG companies will act will actually depend on the sales of Tekken Tag 2. If that flops then I think that will be the trigger to scale back. Though personally I have decent hopes for it since they are handling the DLC issue well.

KOFXIII IS getting more play right now. It's being picked up more and more in tournaments. Little by little you see more of the smaller tournaments making KOF XIII a bigger deal. Today it's the feature game on the Runback. With extra time for developing new game or just time to let the FGC play the games that are out there I think KOF XIII will thrive more. Do I think it will be as big as the top Capcom title? No, but I do think it will make a big mark on the community.

I don't under or overestimate Capcom. I've been around the Capcom community for 21 years. I know the fanbase. I watched the rise and fall of FGC and watched the community rally around the older titles like 3rd Strike, CVS2 and MVC2 till a new game came out. I watched Namco go from a little known company who released a game that looked Vitura Fighter, but played faster to a company buying up Arcades in the US and making sure Tekken was the featured game in there. I watched Tekken Tag take over the community as the #1 game for a while. I watched the community groan at Tekken 4 then rise back up for Tekken 5.

Personally I think I have a good bead on how the community has worked over the years. If I look at my shortcomings I would say I am a little pessimistic. After watching your game genre go to shit then come back, then watch it make the same mistakes that killed it last time would you be a little too?

[Saitsuofleaves]

I wasn't saying KOFXIII wouldn't get bigger.  But the fall of SFxT, of Capcom or whatever won't make the game any bigger like you were leading on.  It will get bigger on its own merits, nothing more, nothing less.

And honestly, AE'12 would've happened ANYWAY.  Three God Tiers or no.  And said three god tiers didn't exactly cause a mass exodus from SF4.

And be pessimistic all you want.  I still say you overexaggerate the shittyness of how the genre used to be.  Genre's could do a lot worse then having things like Guilty Gear, KOF2k2/UM/XI, TTT, and VF4 be out.

If anything happens to the genre or community, it's no one's fault but the gamers, PERIOD.

[KarnF91]

I think things are a little different than they were through most of the 2000's.  The internet is a different beast than it was back then.  The core community was still on message boards like this, but you didn't have youtube, or live streams.  Back then you like FG and were at arcades playing these games, or were casual with friends on the consoles.  Now you can play online multiplayer, granted it's not always the best but you don't need to leave your house really.  

Now anyone can post a video on youtube, have their opinion and reach thousands of people instantly. With live streams, you can show tournaments to thousands of people and showcase a game.  Also because of both, games tend to be more accessible, you don't have to spend hours trying to figure out combos if you are a new player.  Go to youtube and you'll find combo videos.  

Ten years ago, KoFXIII wouldn't be getting the attention it is now.  It's a double edge sword, but in the long run this type of exposure to all this information helps.  

TTT2 isn't going to have problems, a lot of people have been waiting for that game.  If Bandai Namco is smart they can see there is a lot of anger towards Capcom, not the genre of games.  They can grab a lot of attention with TTT2, and build the hype for TxSF.  As stated earlier in the thread, if TxSF does better than SFxT it's going to be interesting.  Some think Capcom will have to pay attention, I don't think they will, they are arrogant.  What they are doing now is what they did in the '90s.  I don't think they care in the end, they'll announce SFV and people will be distracted by the shiny object.

[Saitsuofleaves]

No, what they're doing now isn't anywhere close to what they did in the 90s.  They're not running two (or three, YMMV on the EX series) concurrent Street Fighter Series at the same time along with Vs. Games and other random series like Darkstalkers and Rival Schools.  None of their games has 5 different revisions (all for the same price as a full game back then mind you).

And Capcom WILL pay attention if TxSF surpasses SFxT, because like I've said before, they can certainly ignore other games doing better, but they cannot ignore companies putting out better games using THEIR OWN ROSTER/PROPERTIES.

I don't care how arrogant you are, if you and a rival partner are told to use each other's tools and properties to build your own games, to which your rival's is beloved while yours is reviled, there's no way it won't bother you.

[KarnF91]

They still pump out revisions, and now they have DLC which they can use too.  It's not at the rate it was back then but still we've have what 3 different SFIVs.  As posted earlier, don't use logic when talking about Capcom.  Logic dictates that they would take notice if a rival beats them with their character, but I don't think they'll see it that way.  Nothing in their history makes me believe that they will change.  If they get beaten by TxSF, SFV will be announced with in the next quarter of the TxSF release.

They'll find some way to spin it.  The game is like Tekken with SF characters in it, it's not truly SF.  Here's SFV, it'll have free DLC!

KoFXII wasn't liked by alot of people, SNK took notice, and XIII is much better.  SNK has admitted this was the last shot for KoF, they knew they had to do good on this one.  I don't think Capcom believes they're near that point, nor do I think they are even if TxSF beats them.  The game that is released by Capcom after TxSF should it bomb, then I think they'll take notice.

[Saitsuofleaves]

It's not even logic.  And I even said it before, if they don't feel crap about TxSF thrashing SFxT, I'll praise them because it's like they didn't feel getting kicked in the balls.  And even without logic, Capcom will take notice, not even so much for hating or being annoyed, but just taking it into account.  These are the same guys that had no problem saying they would buy MK9 when it was released.  As much as everyone despises Capcom, they're not as ignorant as people take them for.

And yeah, pumping out revisions, it's STILL nothing compared to the past.  One, again, none of the revisions we've gotten these days is the same price as the original game.  If this were the 90s, you'd be paying $60 for all 4 versions of SF4.  We got off pretty easily on that front.  And with how AE went, it wouldn't surprise me if that's the vision for them, and let's be honest, $15 a year to update your game is a shallow price indeed (compare that to Sports games). 

Compared to back then, let's see all the things running at the same time.

Tail end of SF2 series.
SF3 series.
SFA series.
SFEX series (again, YMMV)
Vs. Series.
Darkstalkers Series.
Rival School series.
JJBA
Power Stone

We're comparing right now which has at MOST 3 different things if you count SFxT on its own thread, and that's supposed to compare to EIGHT DIFFERENT SERIES RUNNING AT THE SAME TIME (and JJBA)?    And they were a lot meaner about prices and release dates back then.  Not to mention a lot of those initial games in the series were messes.

I don't care if everyone hates Capcom, and again, I'm not fond of them.  But it's like comparing a High School Bomb Threat to the Cold War.

[Mr Bakaboy]

I wasn't saying KOFXIII wouldn't get bigger.  But the fall of SFxT, of Capcom or whatever won't make the game any bigger like you were leading on.  It will get bigger on its own merits, nothing more, nothing less.

And honestly, AE'12 would've happened ANYWAY.  Three God Tiers or no.  And said three god tiers didn't exactly cause a mass exodus from SF4.

And be pessimistic all you want.  I still say you overexaggerate the shittyness of how the genre used to be.  Genre's could do a lot worse then having things like Guilty Gear, KOF2k2/UM/XI, TTT, and VF4 be out.

If anything happens to the genre or community, it's no one's fault but the gamers, PERIOD.

KOF XIII is going to get bigger once there are less new games clouding the judgement of players on what to play. SF x TK players dropping mean they will look for another game to play. With no major titles coming in the next few months they will go back to ones that just came meaning KOF XIII gets help there. It's not just SF x TK. If players get tired of certain games they might give KOF XIII a chance when there is more and more hype surrounding it community wise.

No not mass exodus, but more hate yes. The more critics you hear, the more people will turn to another game just cause player a said it's crap. Why do you think KOF has had such a hard time over the years? Capcom fans crap over KOF then other players hear and think I'm not wasting money on that.

The genre basically froze from 2002 till 2008. Online got it started but what NEW games then really got the fans going? VF4. Niche community. I know since I played VF4 and hung around a few. DOA3? Never really got a lot of attention too bad cause it was better then DOA4 or DOA2 IMHO. Guilty Gear XX Reload close to the same as Guilty Gear X which was very similar to Guilty Gear. It's the SF2 of updated games. Also the community was small. I played in that one as well.

The only big market new game back then was Tekken and they were reeling from the backlash of Tekken 4. Tekken 5 I didn't see a big rise till DR came out which was 2006. KOF XI I was in an arcade with that game in there and it did minimal numbers. CVS2 probably had more plays and MVC2 definitely did. KOF02 was not a big player in arcades in the US unless you had a strong Mexican community. It gained attention slowly more from online matches. SVC flopped, Sam Sho V flopped, Sam Sho V Spec nobody really had.

Till Street Fighter IV came out the games people played in the arcade constantly was Tekken 5DR, CVS2, 3rd Strike(if you can find it), MVC2. Most arcades kept a stock of CPS2 board games and Namco titles everywhere I went and I visited a lot of arcades.

Online opened up a lot of gaming, yes but looking at xbox what were people mostly playing. CVS2, 3rd Strike, SF2. I was all over the SNK games and it was hard to get games compared to Capcom, Guilty Gear dropped like a rock after a few months, Dead or Alive 2 got same decent plays but that was almost time for the 360 to come out and DOA 4 to split the players on which game to play.

PS3 Had Tekken 5DR which again was the major fighting game for them. Everything else was a joke Mortal Kombat 2?

360 before SFIV was SF2, DOA4, UMK3 (kinda slow) , and FF Special (which was so-so on players just like xbox 180 SNK games). The players gravitated to the same Capcom and Namco titles over and over. If you could get games in something else you like (say KOF 02 or 03, or FFS) you basically had to get on SRK to schedule matches. If not you usually had a long wait or played the one lag playing jerk who was always online and dropped if he lost.

So, talk to me about how great 03 - 07 was. Tell me how everybody was playing all these new titles. Personally maybe Chicago and St. Louis are just too small of areas to have FGC. Maybe going to communities like West side of Chicago which is Mexican side to play KOF, the Midway testing arcade on the south side of Chicago, or going to arcades in St. Louis that closed at 11P.M. when the place was jumping doesn't give me an accurate assessment of how the FGC really was. Or how about the tournaments in Chicago that I went to that mostly consisted if the same games mentioned earlier with VF4 getting play the 1st year it was released then dropped. I must not know anything I am talking about.

[Saitsuofleaves]

Your first statements would be more true if not for the fact that there were months between KOFXIII's release, and SFxT's release.  That statement works a LOT better when talking about UMvC3 as it was released a week before KOFXIII.  Those who might express interest in KOFXIII could easily go "yeah...but Marvel's coming out so I can't get a look".  Then if Marvel disappoints, they switch to the other game that came out in that time frame.  SFxT didn't really stop ANYONE from becoming interested or playing KOFXIII.  More likely than not, if you weren't interested or didn't feel like playing KOFXIII within the months of its release before SFxT drops, it's not gonna change afterwards.  It'd be like a Shin Megami Tensei coming out, seeing it, not being interested, then a Final Fantasy coming out 3 months later, and then not enjoying that.  I don't suddenly gain an interest in SMT, just because this current game happened to suck.  And if I had an interest in SMT, I had more than enough time to play it without conflicting with FF's release.

On your second point, I'll concede to you about Capcom fans calling on hate.

I never made any statement about online and what it did for the community because...honestly, other than GGPO and up until SF4's "passable" netcode, the online components for games were HORRIBLE.  And they're still bad for consoles other than Blazblue which is built around it, SFxT and Skullgirls both using Rollback, and Soul Caliber V apparently, along with random games along the way (like the REALLY older KOF's for PSN).  It was so bad to a point where...you can't even take online for Fighters into account until GGPO's start for PC, and then SF4 for consoles.  The main way to get games was the same way you got them before.

And not ONCE did I say the "Dark Age of the FGC" was great or anything of the sort.  Again, I just said, to which I will repeat, it's not as big of a hellhole as some would like to believe until SF4's release.  But it taught players true commitment and desire, something seemingly lost in not just "09ers" but even older players.  As it is now, people are more worried about playing games just for the chance of greatness, rather than enjoyment, or just playing for money.  Players aren't just looking for the next shiny thing, they throw temper tantrums when it doesn't happen fast enough, and then throw some more when it happens too fast.  Now's a time where people will bitch about how much a game sucks...but will play it anyway just because "everyone else plays it".  And the worst offender, where people will only play games just because it's "good for the community" whether or not they might actually enjoy the game or not.

For the longest time, I did have problems with people saying the old days were better, but now I'm starting to almost agree on the sense that while so many things are so much better, with information retrieval, better online play, more streams to watch play, and more events in general, one major thing changed.  The mindset of the community.  Nothing is about enjoyment, which always bothered me.  If you don't enjoy playing certain FGs then why do it?  If it EVER comes to the point where I have to do things or play things I absolutely do not want to play or do in order to stay within the FGC or continue playing FGs, that is the point I leave, and I'll have no regrets.

If you had ABSOLUTELY NO ONE to play your games with back in 03-07, then I personally apologize and am sorry for what you had to go through, I'm sure it was a tough time.  If you did, but couldn't find enjoyment, then maybe you needed Capcom games more than you think.  If you did have people to enjoy games with, then I personally don't understand why you seem to be so upset about it.  But honestly, no matter what happened back then, it doesn't mean it will happen now.  Capcom could crash tomorrow, but people would still play its games.  KOFXIII won't really benefit unless the "Shiny New" syndrome takes them over as well by way of getting a revision (hopefully FAR) down the line.  And honestly, I wouldn't want it to benefit just because something crashed.  If you didn't have interest before, I'm not gonna take you seriously now, nor should anyone.  I'd want people who actually took an interest to begin with (or after seeing the game in action or playing it themselves), since they're the people I'm more likely to enjoy playing the game with.

Personally, and I'll go real talk here, I don't give a shit what the community does.  I don't give a shit what Capcom does, I don't give a shit what anyone does, if it doesn't do anything to my enjoyment of the game.  PPV Streams, sponsors, DLC crap, bad business, whatever, I don't care.  If you don't interfere with how I enjoy the game I was given, I really don't give a shit.  If you do something to increase it, yeah, cool, great.    But if something fucks with my enjoyment, and people expect me to go along with it just because it helps the community?  Yeah, fuck that.  Even if it hurts the community, I won't go along with it if it screws with what I can do for fun, and I will not bat an eye because at least I'll be man enough to do what I want.

And I realize that half of this huge wall o' text is just a tangent rant, but it's been a long ass day and I needed to vent.  I figure you'll either discredit everything I say or whatever, but I don't have it in me to do another one of these so...don't expect a decent reply of meaning even if you kick my ass...at least not for the next couple of days.

[Proto Cloud]

No not mass exodus, but more hate yes. The more critics you hear, the more people will turn to another game just cause player a said it's crap. Why do you think KOF has had such a hard time over the years? Capcom fans crap over KOF then other players hear and think I'm not wasting money on that.

Reason people trashed KOF because they had a string of bad games and terrible ports. The hate was justifiable. I'm not sure where you were in the old KOF days, but it was anything but good. And that's not counting that the only KOFs that people cared about were 98 and 2k2. I don't know what you're talking about.

The genre basically froze from 2002 till 2008. Online got it started but what NEW games then really got the fans going? VF4. Niche community. I know since I played VF4 and hung around a few. DOA3? Never really got a lot of attention too bad cause it was better then DOA4 or DOA2 IMHO. Guilty Gear XX Reload close to the same as Guilty Gear X which was very similar to Guilty Gear. It's the SF2 of updated games. Also the community was small. I played in that one as well.

VF4 sold very well because it came at a perfect time when people were pissed over the Tekken 4 debacle. Both versions. DOA3? That sold REALLY well and it was a launch title! It definitely had a lot of attention. GGXX was NOTHING like GGX or GG. Because it didn't suck. Both its predecessors had major issues and GGXX blew up more than any other versions before and those weren't revisions. Also the community was very big when it came out. Are you talking out of your ass? You're really off.

The only big market new game back then was Tekken and they were reeling from the backlash of Tekken 4. Tekken 5 I didn't see a big rise till DR came out which was 2006. KOF XI I was in an arcade with that game in there and it did minimal numbers. CVS2 probably had more plays and MVC2 definitely did. KOF02 was not a big player in arcades in the US unless you had a strong Mexican community. It gained attention slowly more from online matches. SVC flopped, Sam Sho V flopped, Sam Sho V Spec nobody really had.

Even with Tekken 4 being awful, it still sold and so did 5. People respect 5 for the most part, but they made a terrible mistake on not coming out with DR on consoles, instead of keeping on the PSP as long as they did. The fighters that stood strong were VF4, T5/DR, CvS2, MvC2, 3S, SCII/III and the latest version of DOA.

Online opened up a lot of gaming, yes but looking at xbox what were people mostly playing. CVS2, 3rd Strike, SF2. I was all over the SNK games and it was hard to get games compared to Capcom, Guilty Gear dropped like a rock after a few months, Dead or Alive 2 got same decent plays but that was almost time for the 360 to come out and DOA 4 to split the players on which game to play.

GG didn't drop like a rock, the online netcode sucked, but it still got a great community. DOA2 got A LOT of play online. DOA4 didn't split shit. Everyone flocked to it and little stayed behind for 2. Only split was for players playing DOA3.1.

360 before SFIV was SF2, DOA4, UMK3 (kinda slow) , and FF Special (which was so-so on players just like xbox 180 SNK games). The players gravitated to the same Capcom and Namco titles over and over. If you could get games in something else you like (say KOF 02 or 03, or FFS) you basically had to get on SRK to schedule matches. If not you usually had a long wait or played the one lag playing jerk who was always online and dropped if he lost.

You forget Battle Fantasia and Soul Calibur IV.

So, talk to me about how great 03 - 07 was. Tell me how everybody was playing all these new titles. Personally maybe Chicago and St. Louis are just too small of areas to have FGC. Maybe going to communities like West side of Chicago which is Mexican side to play KOF, the Midway testing arcade on the south side of Chicago, or going to arcades in St. Louis that closed at 11P.M. when the place was jumping doesn't give me an accurate assessment of how the FGC really was. Or how about the tournaments in Chicago that I went to that mostly consisted if the same games mentioned earlier with VF4 getting play the 1st year it was released then dropped. I must not know anything I am talking about.

Yeah, you must not, because you live in an alternate dimension, sorry. I had people play whatever when you're looking in the right places.

It'd be like a Shin Megami Tensei coming out, seeing it, not being interested, then a Final Fantasy coming out 3 months later, and then not enjoying that.  I don't suddenly gain an interest in SMT, just because this current game happened to suck.  And if I had an interest in SMT, I had more than enough time to play it without conflicting with FF's release.

Basically, this.

[solidshark]

Interesting opinions going around. I might side with Bakaboy's a little more per my experience, but I think everyone's going to try to determine most of the FGC tendencies according to where they were whenever.

But back on topic, got a question for everyone - who's actually played SFxT yet? And for those who've played it, do the pros of it outweight the cons (including the reception, bad press, etc.)?

[LAB Falken]

It really needs work. There's a lot of things that just seem unpolished. Some people do outrageous damage for little reason (ie rufus ex galactic tornado does a hell of a lot of damage and wallbounces... one or the other would have been nice, combined it's outrageous, raven and ryu's meterless damage, etc). Jump properties seem very off as of now as well which is a shame since the game is so aerial to begin with.

As for pros it has a very liberal combo system, leading to lots of fun in training mode, 2v2 is honestly a lot of fun especially if you're playing with someone who knows your SF4 habits (a comparison I like to use is multiplayer katamari where one person is one hand and vice versa, you kind of just have to 'know' what's in your pal's head), and there are a few concepts that if hashed out could lead to some neat stuff.

But then there's the many, many, cons. I'm sure most of which have already been drilled into your head so I'll spare you. They're mostly real, and from what I can tell from the cracked version things are going to get super crazy before they get any better. I'll say that they don't outweigh the cons yet, not by a longshot.

[Mr Bakaboy]

I like the discussion, but answering it is getting WAY off topic so I threw my answers on Off Topic thread:Ronald Jenkees Edition.

Proto Cloud please keep the insults down. I answered your questions, but not looking for a flame war.

Personally SF x TK wise I see a lot of potential if they can patch the loops on the game. 4 player mode brought me back to Tekken Tag days. It just need a patch in the worse way.

[Proto Cloud]

Honestly, that's just how I am. It's nothing personal and I'm not trying to offend you. Take it or leave it, it's not like I'm calling you an aspie or a downer now and I'm not trying to start a flame war. I'm just laying it down how it is and your facts from your point of view are just plain wrong. If you're offended though, just say so and I'll be sure to ignore your posts from here on out.

Anyways, on point. I've played the game and here's the major issues:

- Timer is WAY too fast. It makes it so that if you're behind by a significant by 40 seconds or lower, it forces you on the defensive immediately. It makes it almost impossible to make comebacks at certain points and it doesn't help that throw and super animations last forever and don't freeze the timer.
- Too many characters are copy/pasted from SFIV and don't fit well in the new SFxT system.
- Throws suck ass, you have to be RIGHT NEXT to your opponent to land one successfully and they a huge startup somewhere around 10-5 frames or so. This in itself is terrible, but it also affects command grabs, because they're only slightly better on startup and have marginally better range. This is a problem because a lot of characters are basically copy/pasted from SFIV. Characters like Bison suffer from not having a strong grab game.
- Wakeup rolls are too good. They have way too much invincibility and the only reliable way to punish them is to jump back and hope for an ambiguous crossup. It basically makes some forms of zoning entirely useless (as you can roll after fireball knockdown right into your opponent) and ruins the okizeme game.
- The damage scaling is too much like SFIV and ruins the whole combo system they implemented in the first place and makes timeouts that more frequent.
- Tekken Tag rules are plain dumb in a SF like game with quick red life increase, chip damage and very little safe tag situations. (At least TTT2 rectified this issue with new safe tag methods.)
- Awful glitches.

My minor complains are:
- Tekken characters for the most part don't *feel* like Tekken characters. There's some exceptions like Kazuya, but for the most part, their combos don't work like they should, adding moves that don't make sense, adding moves that were useless in Tekken and are still useless here. Giving them wallbounces when Tekken has wallsplats and animation that's vastly inferior to that found in Tekken.
- This game needed a groove system badly. Honestly, that's what made CvS2 work for me and I'm still convinced that they should've done that instead of:
- Adding a bunch of systems that feel tacked on and poorly implemented like the gems and Pandora.
- Some Tekken characters are modified models of existing SF characters.
- There's no crossover love like in Marvel vs. Capcom. Where's the inside jokes and crossover craziness. I like stuff like Zero assessing Sentinel as a Maverick or Arthur wanting to don Ironman's armor. There's very few instances of it here.
- It's a rushjob and you can tell.

[AcidGlow]

With the new April 24 Update of new Gems added, I did a review on the Pandora mode.
SF X Tekken April 24 Update - Pandora Gem Review