How do I fight grab characters?

[kofrookie]

Hi all, I was hoping somebody could give me some advice on how to fight grab characters in 2002 and 2002UM.  I've played KOF for several months but I still can't figure out how to beat Clark, Orochi Yashiro, etc.. I can't interrupt their grabs with normals, specials get stuffed, if I try to counter-grab it usually doesn't work or they go for a normal into a command grab... I'm just so lost, I feel utterly helpless against grab characters.  Please help!

[desmond_kof]

1.) Some ppl like to grab you after blocking your jumping normals cuz most of them are 1-frame throws. To stop that, after you jump in with a blocked attack, try jumping or hopping again with an attack, and you will see the throw miss. But careful doing that because they may catch on to that, and may start whipping out jabs to stop your hops.

2.) If you are in the corner, some players might tick throw you. To stop that, you will have to learn alternate guarding. I will let someone else explain that. *cough EMIL cough*

3.) After you get hard knocked down, some players will do a mixup of either a jump-in meaty attack or an empty jump into a throw. Some players might just run up and throw you. It's hard to deal with, you can try to pick a character that has a really good reverse move to stop that jump-in but smart players will bait that out.


That's all I can really think of, if anyone can add more or if anyone disagrees with me, please do so!

[jinxhand]

From my experience, it's best to know the actual range of the grappler's throws. I actually go in training mode, and try to get a good gauge on what the range may be.

Try to find out situations and moves in which they're unable to grab you. Desmond's right about the hop/jump attack method, that does work from time to time. Good grapplers, and some Goro players can very well catch on, and then you've got air grabs to worry about...

As far as alternate guarding goes, I only know how to explain that in the VF world, and its called something else. However, there is this:

http://youtu.be/jxRFWivgf5I

Just loop the vid and you'll see how alternate guarding works, and the possibilities that can come from mastering it. Someone should write an article on this imo, as this is another thing that separates players based on skill level. There's info about it on the KOF 2002 Wiki on this site.

Here's some info from SRK on alternate guarding:

Originally a bug, and now back in KOFXIII as a feature is a technique called Alternate Guard. If you are in blockstun, you can extend your blockstun, by quickly alternating between low and high block. The reason why you would want to do this, is because you can extend the time that you are invulnerable to being thrown. Alternate Guard therefore is a great way of avoiding tickthrows and subsequently punish the whiffed throw. Obviously since you are alternating between high and low block, you become quite vulnerable to lows, but this is usually a fair trade, as grapplers, who you would usually alternate guard against, tend to not have too damaging options off of lows.

[Reiki.Kito]

I'd have to agree with jinxhand. Just staying out of range of command grabs helps a lot. You can just apply pressure by doing a simple alternating pattern of d.b, d.b, jump, C (land) --(Loop)-->. This softens them up and is pretty good as they're still in blockstun. You can alternate that loop with just hopping again like Desmond mentioned.

Also, if YOU knock THEM down, do not get in their face. It's like eating a wake-up DP you can't block, they'll command grab you if you're close enough on wake-up and baiting them to do it isn't advisable. Just give them just enough room to be out of their range, but enough to continue applying pressure on them.

[Mr Bakaboy]

When you fight a good thrower you have to know the mindset of one. Using the concept of fighting midrange and using safer moves. When you get a hitstun off you have a window of a little less then a second to capitalize on the maximum amount of damage and possibly more depending on how disoriented you can keep your opponent.

When a thrower wants to get you, they have to have an idea of where you are in accordance to where the throw animation is going to hit. Like it has already been said. If someone is in the air, normal command grabs will whiff, an air throw will whiff if you are sweeping, etc. So in essence if you have him off balance, there's really not much to worry about.

The problem truly lies when you rushdown and the opponent is just sitting there blocking. That is a truly unsafe time and you need to get the hell out of dodge cause he's getting or got his bearings. It's also the case with knockdowns, cause that also gives the opponent time while rising to take time to gain his bearings, so charging towards a knockdown is dangerous.

[desmond_kof]

Here is alternate guarding from the KOF2002 wiki here:

"Alternate Guard: This is a glitch that is very useful for avoiding throws. The way it works is that if the opponent has done some kind of move that has put you into a blocking animation, then you can keep that blocking animation going indefinitely by quickly alternating crouch block with stand block. Whlie you are alternating, all throws that the opponent attempts will miss, including one frame command throws(Daimon hcb f+P), delayed command throws(O Yashiro hcf+P and qcb+P, Clark dp+K), Daimon's autoguard hcfx2+K, proximity throws such as Andy hcf+P and O Chris hcf+K and normal f+C/D throws.

Blocking animation is triggered if you are holding back while a blockable move is executed by the opponent. That move does not actually have to be blocked by you in order for the block animation to be triggered.

A basic and dangerous tactic that a grappler could do to you is to throw you after landing from a jump attack, or to do a weak attack into a throw. Without alternate guard, avoiding this after you have blocked the jump attack or the weak attack, requires you to jump(or throw him first which may or may not work out). The problem is that a jump has startup vulnerability frames in which your character can get hit before he actually lifts off the ground. If the grappler decides to instead do a close C after his jump attack or weak attack, you would get hit by it if you attempted to jump out expecting a throw.

Alternate guard allows you to avoid the throw and to block the close C without the risk of guessing wrong. Alternate guard makes you vulnerable to high and low attacks, depending on your block position when a move makes contact. Jump attacks are generally not much of a threat against alternate guard because it is easy to see when someone jumps, but many fast low attacks are generally impossible to react to...which means, if you are alternating high/low with equal speeds, you have a 50% chance to get hit with a low attack.

To minimize the risk of getting hit low, it's important to know that you don't really have to alternate at the same speeds...I'm not sure of the exact frames but you can alternate for say, one frame high and 5 frames low, and will keep you vulnerable low only 1/6th the time. "

http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=King_of_Fighters_2002#Practical_Tricks_.26_Glitches


Also, a good thing to know is the different kinds of throws. As mentioned above, there are:

1.) 1 instant framers (Clark's hcf+K, Vice's hcb, f + P, Orochi Yashiro's hcb, f + P etc.)

2.) Delayed throws (Clark's dp+k, Chris's dp+P, Daimon's dp + P etc.)

3.) Proximity unblockables (98 Robert's hcf + K, 02UM King's hcf + P, normal throws)

4.) blockable throws (Hinako's hcf + k)

But yeah, good players that play with grapple characters can be a nightmare sometimes. Just keep at it, and try to understand and remember when they whip out their throws the most under what situations.

[jinxhand]

Thanks Desmond, I'll fix my other post, since that one actually does this topic justice...

I'm not one to try to get up close to a grappler in a match on knockdown, but I do wonder if there are meaty moves that can provide some sort of cover vs a grappling move, or if it can just beat it out. I don't think that one should necessarily stop their momentum out of fear of getting grabbed, but at the same time one would still have to play the game smartly and keep in mind the limitations when facing a grappler.

I will admit though that some characters may fare out better simply because they either have a decent projectile that can provide them cover (and some mind games), and/or they have a move with reach that provides some safety in terms of frames and pushback.

[kofrookie]

Thank you everyone for all your tips, this is much more than I was expecting and I'm very grateful.  I'll try to implement alternate guarding into my play and try to work on my spacing so I'm safer from grabs.   

[jinxhand]

This technique should work against Benimaru's command grab right?

[desmond_kof]

Yeah it works against all kinds of grabs, you just have to be in block stun first.

[BiGGDaddyCane]

Damn good tips, I was gonna come in here in say a couple of things but you guys rapped it up quite nicely on the types of throws cause thats what I wanted to explain lol. Good shit

Also, a good thing to know is the different kinds of throws. As mentioned above, there are:

1.) 1 instant framers (Clark's hcf+K, Vice's hcb, f + P, Orochi Yashiro's hcb, f + P etc.)

2.) Delayed throws (Clark's dp+k, Chris's dp+P, Daimon's dp + P etc.)

3.) Proximity unblockables (98 Robert's hcf + K, 02UM King's hcf + P, normal throws)

4.) blockable throws (Hinako's hcf + k)

Also, Kensou's. Oh and Heavy D!'s Proximity Unblockable (DP+   or   ) sometimes I forget he even has one lol

[Kane317]

Thank you everyone for all your tips, this is much more than I was expecting and I'm very grateful.  I'll try to implement alternate guarding into my play and try to work on my spacing so I'm safer from grabs.  

FYI, alternate guard doesn't work as efficiently in XIII as it does in '98UM so just in case you were practicing for XIII, that's something to keep in mind of.

As for fighting grapplers, the only thing I can really add is learn to understand hit/block stun.  Especially in XIII console edition (vs the arcade one) you'll learn very quickly that you *have to* land deep jump-ins, which actually well help you fight grapplers.  If you jump attack is not deep enough then most grapplers can reverse command throw you when you land.  If they're in hit/block stun--they cannot.  

Also, don't try to interrupt command throws with your normals; in the older kofs like '98, it distinctly added to the range they could throw you!  Just hop a lot and stay out of range.

As long as you're mindful of the distance of a grappler's command throw you should be alright.  When we were first teaching one of our friends, *cough* 4leaf *cough (I won't mention his name), we made him use Clark because he kept getting pwnd by him,  eventually he figured out how to play against grapplers.