K’ (Console)

[Reiki.Kito]

hop C, st.C (1), f+A, (qcb+D)x2 -slide-, dp+A (1), qcf+C, f+D, qcb+D, qcb+D (whiff), dp+C

You mean this one? You should pop them up high enough to do so. I don't have much issue with it. If you feel you can't finish it up, you can always use 1 meter to do EX Minute Spike, do a super for free (Even a well timed qcf, hcb+A will hit), or just go for the dp+C.

[Saitsuofleaves]

Yeah that one.  It isn't that they aren't high enough, it's that they're too far horizontally.  Like, K' foot will just miss.  Though I am using him on anchor so I guess I could use EX Minute Spike.

EDIT:  Okay, even EX Minute Spike is not connecting.  I mean, I can do supers easily, and in the corner do whatever including Minute Spikes, but midscreen it doesn't seem to work.  I dunno if it's my timing, or the fact that it only works if you're at least close to the corner.

[Reiki.Kito]

Yeah that one.  It isn't that they aren't high enough, it's that they're too far horizontally.  Like, K' foot will just miss.  Though I am using him on anchor so I guess I could use EX Minute Spike.

EDIT:  Okay, even EX Minute Spike is not connecting.  I mean, I can do supers easily, and in the corner do whatever including Minute Spikes, but midscreen it doesn't seem to work.  I dunno if it's my timing, or the fact that it only works if you're at least close to the corner.

That might be the case. I've only tried the combo if I'm about half screen. Never really pushed it to where I have to carry all the way to the other corner. Well, that's fine. We just have to store that, practice the skill, and position accordingly.

That is pretty maddening though. Short of d.B, qcf+A, f+D or st.C (1), qcf+A, f+D there's no guaranteed corner carry combos. Once we've got people in the corner, we can be as creative as we bloody want, but it's important to figure out how to control midscreen.

So lets throw combos out of the window for a moment: What tools can we use to control midscreen or bully people into the corner?

[Saitsuofleaves]

Well first to be specific, there's no guaranteed METERLESS corner combos.  EX Ein Trigger-Second Shell makes that a lot easier (and hopefully you'll only need to get them there once) since you can confirm that like a corner Normal Ein Trigger.

As for how to get the opponent there with control or without meter, in general I've always been fond of the less is more approach.  I'm no K' expert, or even decent K' at all, but it'd probably be a lot better if you're passive in your approach in pushing to the corner (unless you have the meter in which case, just confirm like normal).  Let the opponent make the mistake and capitalize on said mistake.  What I've noticed from watching a decent amount of K' play (and let's be honest, who hasn't if they have been following since Arcade), and I honestly think the Ein Trigger-Black Out followup should be used a bit more especially now.

What I've seen are that K' players tend to be really rigid when getting in their neutral game and far range game, almost flowchartish with their Triggers and followups, which makes things like moving around Triggers and punishment a bit easier since K' isn't moving.  Using the Black Out followup, now the opponent has to worry about you not being where you're supposed to be when they try to punish.  They get frustrated, your Trigger game becomes more of a pain in the ass.  I'm not saying abuse the BO followup, but use it every so often so the opponent gets annoyed.  And if you already have them scared to move or press buttons, free throw, which means free shenanigans.

[FakeVariable]

I really like the idea of using the blackout follow up more, I'm definitely going to try that, it is something that I had pretty much ignored.

I'm also struggling somewhat with ways to get people to the corner.  I have been pretty successful with more or less fishing for j.CD into air minute spike, which has decent carry.  But that has pretty much been against people online and against a very limited number of offline opponents this past weekend.  This doesn't really seem like a particularly legitimate strategy against high level players or when the other players catch on.  While it seems like a decent option/supplemental strategy, clearly I am in need of more options (as we probably all are). 

d.B/Cl.C (1 hit), trigger are also good options that I have been implementing, but they are obviously hard to confirm unless its off of a jump in or something.  I think I am going to start using EX trigger more often to gain position, but I am currently running K' on point, so burning lots of meter is not really ideal.

In light of all that, what I have been working on is trying to gain ground via footsies and being conscious of not giving up space....but I am certainly no KoF footsie genius so the results have been...mixed...

[Killey]

I like watching eLive.pro|Dune's K' for a reference because he just plays a really solid game. It's nothing fancy or any specific setups, he just plays a really good footsie game.

[Atb_555]

Got any link to vids?  The video thread for K' has been dead for quite a while.

Thanks

[Reiki.Kito]

What I've been trying to do is mix in aggressive pressure and spacing control to gain ground and push people to the corner. Mind you, I'm a lot more passive so the usual K' aggression is not my style.

What I've been doing is playing the waiting game. If I'm playing against a fireball character like Kensou or Andy, I'm very wary of if they have meter to use an EX fireball. Other than that, I poke them and wait for them to block. Sometimes, you'll catch them not blocking low and you can buffer the qcb+D, qcb+D while doing Ein Trigger: Second Shell. Once I score a narrow spike hit, I'll do a DP into a DP. With meter, a lot more.

In order to control hop space, I find that I either have to neutral jump B to keep people off me or D. I rarely use neutral hop CD because of the angling. Just too diagonal as a good air-to-air. Other than that, I like to stay on the ground and DP. I know, sounds scrubby, but if nobody is respecting your wake-up, K' DP is great. It's completely invincible on your wake-up and can break through strings that aren't true block strings. Take for example Ralf's st.C, df+A, qcf+C. Most Ralf players, on block, will try to go for maybe an instant overhead or a low. If you anticipate that, you'll stuff both of them with DP+C and net some forward movement and a hard knockdown. Just requires some more thought than mashing it out.

If they're in my hop space, I try to use far D a lot more. What it does for me is gives a lot of damage and it's pretty vertical, a bit more than d.C. It's slower so it's pretty good for anticipating deep hop-ins or jumps if someone wants to play it safe. Otherwise, I'd use d.C for a almost completely vertical hurtbox and the ability to special cancel anything. I'm not afraid to spend some meter on a good hit confirm either, but using EX Ein Trigger for spacing or on block's not bad either. It's safe on block by itself and you can do f.B from a short distance, farther away, or mid range to keep applying pressure.

While I'm closer to somebody, but not really in cl.C or cl.D range, I like to throw out st.C. It's not fast, but not slow either and it's special cancellable on hit. Really great poke.

KOF footsie stuff I really should be applying is empty hop lows. K' throw is hard to set up a cross-up or even a great safe jump (The move whiffs even if you applied it correctly. You have to do hop D, but even then hop D will miss crouching people), but setting up lows really keeps you adding pressure. Dashing forward for low Bs are good too as you can mix that dash up with a hop or a throw. You could even confuse people by doing st.C, f+A and buffer in the qcb+Dx2 for an almost instant low.

While we're on the topic of his move properties, what do you think is a decent reversal for him aside from DP? I know EX minute spike has guard point on start-up, but I never can get it right.


EDIT: I also have been playing around with K' normals this morning and I need some help! If you guys can set K' as a dummy and do the following string on record: d.B, st.B, (on the earliest frame) far C.

Then use any character you have, get up in K' face and run the recording. Aside from DP or a super, on hit, can you guys reversal it using normals? I think this can be a sort of psuedo frame trap. Aside from poking, st.B hs no other uses. What I'm finding is that on block and on hit, it has a little longer blockstun than st.A and you can delay in your heavy moves. They won't combo, but they come out fast enough to screw with your opponent's timing.

List the characters you tried and what worked. Then we can decide if it's worth a shot in gameplay. Thanks in advance.


EDIT: I also have been playing around with K' normals this morning and I need some help! If you guys can set K' as a dummy and do the following string on record: d.B, st.B, (on the earliest frame) far C.

Then use any character you have, get up in K' face and run the recording. Aside from DP or a super, on hit, can you guys reversal it using normals? I think this can be a sort of psuedo frame trap. Aside from poking, st.B hs no other uses. What I'm finding is that on block and on hit, it has a little longer blockstun than st.A and you can delay in your heavy moves. They won't combo, but they come out fast enough to screw with your opponent's timing.

List the characters you tried and what worked. Then we can decide if it's worth a shot in gameplay. Thanks in advance

Note: Supers with invincibilities or DPs with invincibility are not included because that's self explanatory so most EX moves are not listed as well. You should usually assume this won't work against supers or EX moves that have fast/invincible start-up.

List of characters and their options against d.B, st.B, far C
Kyo - d.B (d.A will whiff so can't combo), st.A, st.B
Benimaru - d.B, st.B
Daimon -st.A, st.B, hcb,f+P, dp+K
Duolon- st.a, st.C, d.A, qcf+P
Elizabeth- st.a, d.B, qcb+B
Shen - st.A, far C, qcb+K, qcb+A
Terry - st.B, d.B
Ryo - st.b, f+B (Parry), d.B, hcb+B, d.C
K' - d.B, st.B st.A

[FakeVariable]

I think that EX blackout is invincible on startup, so maybe you can use that as a reversal to get out of the corner or something, although I have not tried it myself.

Also, I made this post in response to something on SRK earlier today, people here probably know it already, but it might help someone out.


going into HD from cr.Bx2 isn't that bad with K'

cr.B, cr.B, (HD) s.C(1), f+A (optional), dp+A(1), (HDC) qcb+D, qcb+D, etc...
or
cr.B, cr.B, (HD) s.C(1), qcf+A, f+D, qcb+D, blah blah blah...

You just have to do the activation early or whatever so that s.C comes out from the BC activation. Both these methods work from anywhere, however the most reliable way is to omit the f+A from the first method and go straight into dp+A from s.C(1). Also, if s.B comes out after the activation instead of s.C the rest still works the same way.

[Reiki.Kito]

I don't think it's invincible on start-up, but after it starts, he's invincible.

I also edited my first post with a project I hope everyone can help me with! Check it out.

[FM Sway]

Hi everyone! I just wanted to share my notes with you that I've done through trial and error. If it looks too confusing, please feel free to tell me. I kinda jumble the notations a lot too much ><

These are all just combos, by the way.

Feel free to point out the most practical combos I should use!

[spoiler]K'

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm16550980

-Legend-
xx = cancel into
xxx = HD Cancel
/ = Press buttons simultaneously
tk = Tiger Knee Motion
tk.lk/HK/HP = Tiger Kick EX Air Minutes Spike. Automatically triggers HD Mode.

0 Bar:
--0% HD--
137 dmg [All Screen/Soft Knockdown] - cr.lk, cr.lk, qcf+lp, f+lk
198 dmg [All Screen/Hard Knockdown] - j.HP, cr.lk, cr.lk, dp+HP, f+K
201(199) dmg [All Screen] - j.HP(HK), cr.lk, cr.lk, qcf+HP, f+lk
238(236) dmg [All Screen] - j.HP(HK), s.HP, f+lp, qcf+HP, f+lk


--50% HD--
322 dmg [All Screen] - cr.lk, qcf+lp xx f+HK, qcb+HK xx qcb+HK (whiff), dp+lp (2 hits) xxx qcf+lk, dp+HP, f+K
365(363) dmg [All Screen] - j.HP(HK), s.HP, f+lp, qcb+K xx qcb+K (connect), dp+lp xxx qcf+lk, dp+HP, f+K
374 dmg [Close to Corner] - j.HP(HK), cr.lk, qcf+lp xx f+HK, qcb+HK xx qcb+HK, dp+lp (2 hits) xxx qcf+lk, dp+HP, f-K
381 dmg [Corner Only] - j.HP, cr.lk, cr.lk, qcf+lp xx f+HK, qcb+K xx qcb+K, dp+lp (2 hits) xxx qcf+K, dp+HP, f+K
409 dmg [Reiki Combo/All Screen] - s.HP, f+lp, qcb+HK xx qcb+HK (must connect), dp+lp xxx qcf+HP, f+HK, qcb+lk xx qcb+lk, dp+lp
418 dmg [Corner Only] - j.HP, s.HP, f+lp, qcf+lp xx f+HK, qcb+K xx qcb+K, dp+lp (2 hits) xxx qcf+K, dp+HP, f+K


1 Bar:
--0% HD--
339(337) dmg [All Screen] - j.HP(HK), cl.lk, qcf+lp/HP xx f+HK, qcf-qcf+P


--50% HD--
356 dmg [All Screen] - cr.lk, qcf+lp xx f+HK, qcb+HK xx qcb+HK, dp+lp (2 hits) xxx qcf+lk, dp+lp/HP
394 dmg [All Screen] - cr.lk, qcf+lp xx f+HK, qcb+HK xx qcb+HK, dp+lp xx qcf-hcb+lp
430 dmg [All Screen] - j.HP, s.HP, f+lp, qcb+K xx qcb+K (connect), dp+lp (2 hits) xxx qcf+lk, dp+lp/HP


2 Bar:
???


3 Bars:
--100% HD--
884 dmg [All Screen]- j.HP, cr.lk, cr.lk xx HDM xx s.HP, f+lp, qcb+lk xx qcb+lk, [dp+lp xxx qcb+lk, qcb+lk]x2, dp+lp xxx f+HP, f+HK, f+lp, qcf-hcb+lp(HP) xx qcb-qcb+lp/HP


4 Bars:
--100% HD--
886 dmg [Anti-Air/Near Corner] - j.CD, tk.lk/HK/HP, [dp+lp xxx qcb+K, qcb+K] x2, dp+lp, f+HP, f+HK, f+lp, qcf-hcb+lp(HP) xx qcb-qcb+lp/HP
972 dmg [Counter-Hit Setup/Near Corner] - J.CD (ch), j.CD, tk.lk/HK/HP, dp+lp xxx f+HP, f+HK, f+lp xxx qcb+lk (must connect), qcb+lk, dp+lp xxx f+HP, f+HK, f+lp, qcf-hcb+lp(HP) xx hcb-hcb lp+HP
972 dmg [All Screen] - j.HP, s.HP, f+lp xx HDM xx s.HK, qcb+LK/HK (must connect), qcb+lk, dp+lp xxx f+HP, f+HK, f+lp xxx qcb+lk (must connect), qcb+lk, dp+lp xxx f+HP, f+HK, f+lp, qcf-hcb+lp(HP) xx hcb-hcb+lp/HP
1000 dmg [Instant Kill] - j.HP, cr.HP, f+lp xx HDM xx s.HK, qcb+LK/HK (must connect), qcb+lk, dp+lp xxx f+HP, f+HK, f+lp xxx qcb+lk (must connect), qcb+lk, dp+lp xxx f+HP, f+HK, f+ lp, qcf-hcb+lp(HP) xx hcb-hcb+lp/HP


5 Bars:
--100% HD--
895 dmg [LOL] - j.HP, cr.lk, cr.lk, qcf+lp/HP, f+HK, qcb+k (connect) xx qcb+k, s.HP xx HDM xx tk.lk/HK, [dp+lp xxx qcb+k xx qcb+k] x2, dp+lp xxx f+HP, f+HK, f+lp, qcf-hcb+lp(HP) xx qcb-qcb+lp/HP
932 dmg - j.HP, s.HP, f+lp, qcf+lp/HP, f+HK, qcb+k (connect) xx qcb+k, s.HP xx HDM xx tk.lk/HK, [dp+lp xxx qcb+k xx qcb+k] x2, dp+lp xxx f+HP, f+HK, f+lp, qcf-hcb+lp(HP) xx qcb-qcb+lp/HP[/spoiler]

[Reiki.Kito]

430 dmg [All Screen] - j.HP, s.HP, f+lp, qcb+K xx qcb+K (connect), dp+lp (2 hits) xxx qcf+lk, dp+lp/HP


This one is great and connects anywhere. It also does some pretty nasty damage for 1 stock bar use. You could also cut off the EX DP to just do the Heavy DP for similar damage.
Another thing. On a hop in, you should try to learn how to do s.HP (1 hit), qcf+LP which can hit anywhere on the screen.

When you get people in the corner though, you need to do some serious damage. Here's an example of a combo that does a crap ton of damage without using any drive. TWO BARS! You got to be resourceful and get a full use out of your meter and EX moves. For example, you can chain in some dp+lp (1hit), into qcb+lk/HK, qcb+lk (whiff), into dp+HP. That can do some damage for just 1 meter and you gain a lot of meter back.

526 dmg [Corner Only] j.HP, s.HP, f+lp, qcf+lp, f+HK, j.HP+HK, *land*, qcf, hcb + LP,HP =

[Killey]

Got any link to vids?  The video thread for K' has been dead for quite a while.

Thanks

Sorry for the late response.

KOF XIII eLive Dune 對戰影片1
KOF XIII eLive Dune 對戰影片2

That's all I've seen so far. There's a lot more floating around on Nico or eLive.

[Reiki.Kito]

Updated the Wiki.

Changes

Ein Trigger
*Included information about C version
-Comes out slower, but longer active frames. Makes it a better neutralize for fireball wars. Carries these properties to follow-ups. Doesn't knockdown.

Second Shoot
*Included information about C version
-C version travels faster than A version

Second Shell
*Included information about C version
-Comes out slower, but longer active frames and area of effect.

[Saitsuofleaves]

Reiki, I got around to testing that BnB you had before hop C, st.C (1), f+A, (qcb+D)x2 -slide-, dp+A (1), qcf+C, f+D, qcb+D, qcb+D (whiff), dp+C.  It CAN be done further from P2 start range (or closer to your corner).  You have to DASH right after Second Shoot for a split second, THEN Minute Spike.  However, you will get no DP follow up from the Normal Minute Spike and only a A DP for EX Minute Spike, and the timing is tight, but it can be done.