The Evolution of Fighting Games

[solidshark]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-26-yoshinori-ono-outlines-vision-for-next-gen-street-fighter

Articles like this make me take a long look down the possible road for future fighters. Fighters are and probably always have been a niche genre in every part of the world. It needs its' widespread appeal, and as things change, probably the games should follow.

What's being done now with a game like SFxT, I don't like so much. Gems are among my least favorite ideas for a fighting game mechaninc. They might be pretty fun to use when the game comes out, but I'm more inclined to look at the fact that it's being put in a popular what-if-x-fought-y game that no one expected, that will probably sell well enough, just to see if it works. A mechanic that seems to be necessary to the overall gameplay, and a mechanic to be paid after already buying a game worries me. I can't think of a game that's done this, especially not in fighters. With all the DLC stuff that we're paying for, music, characters, stages, costumes, should a core-mechanic be messed with post-purchase? For fixing glitches, yes. For an additional mode to the game, maybe. For something that's apart of the entire game, no.

The article above has Ono wanting to go more into character stat customization as the future of probably SF and maybe other franchises. If they had the Gem idea in mind from the start, even before SFxT, I wish they would've made a brand-new IP that would've lended itself more to using it in creative ways.

Let me end that rant right there with a few questions for you all:

How has FGs evolved in a good or bad way?

What are some of the best ways for FGs to evolve?

Should FGs really evolve much?

[Proto Cloud]

If you want to make fighting games grow, you really need to look no further than Mortal Kombat.

What I mean is that, if they REALLY want to get out of a niche, they need to understand their potential and target markets, and that is exactly what Mortal Kombat 9 achieved successfully. Whether or not you like MK9 for what it is and or what it has become, you can't deny that it was successful and it's undoubtably one of the best games in the series, if not the best. (Even though that isn't really saying much.) They clearly identified what people liked from their games and set out to do it. They ignored the silly mini-games and beat-em-up story modes and put focus on the fighting system. They made what is undoubtedly the BEST story mode in a fighting game ever, made a fighting system that is the best to date, that is instantly appealing, whether you're a vet or a scrub and there's plenty of extras to keep you occupied even if you aren't a competitive player. This is why it managed to sell over 10 million copies. Which is astounding, because only Tekken has managed to make numbers like that before. This is something that fighters can't ignore and have to start addressing if they want a bigger piece of the pie.

Also, just look at shooters and strategy games for a second. These are both genres that are very much at heart genres that are at their very essence competitive and have been for a long time. Most of them can get away with a story mode and have a decent multiplayer and they've got huge bank.

Let's look at Smash. I ain't gonna talk about it, because it's self-explanatory.

So what is the biggest issue here? Accessibility.

What can we do about it?

Simple. Make an involving story mode, that teaches players the fundamentals of the game to get started. Teach them as much as you can. Simple modes help, but even better is making a system that gives the player a natural progression. There's always a way to make a game that is both easy to pick up and hard to master. Why don't more games have chain combos? Why do so many games have such frame intensive combos? Why does this move need such a ridiculous input? Why do we need to put such a penalizing damage reduction system that penalizes players for style? Why do we need to keep certain techniques and tips from players?

These are all questions that developers should make to themselves if they really want to ride this fighting game comeback to it's fullest.

[jinxhand]

You forgot when companies do things like that it gets too complicated. Look at Virtua Fighter. The game got more strings, a tutorial mode in 4EVO, tons of items to unlock and purchase, and an offline and online ranking system. People still cry the game is too hard. Final Showdown has changes that make the least frame savvy person seem competitive, and it's more penalizing for those who whore backdashing. Simply put, the game is far from difficult to learn and it's still not played as much in America as say MBAACC which doesn't even have half of this.

As far as Capcom's future is going, that shit is looking sadder than Claw Iori. That flame is goin out fast and Capcom's starting to burn bridges Nintendo style.

One thing that's funny is when SFxT and TxSF were talked about at conventions, people clung to Capcom's project and bashed the hell outta Namco's. Now they see how SFxT really is and hear that Harada is letting the fans pick who is in and people have more faith in TxSF now because the company isn't trolling their fans.

Let's just hope SNK stays dedicated to their fans.

Someone said it best: "With SNK, the future is now. With Capcom, the future is gems."

But this isn't the first time Capcom pushed gems. There's that mini fighter, puzzle fighter, and MSH. Oh yeah, there's Power Stone.

[Proto Cloud]

The problem with Virtua Fighter and that always will be a problem with Virtua Fighter is that their character designs aren't anime enough and they don't have a story mode. It's basically got no universal appeal at all. It's all versus and some people don't accept that. Sadly, if they actually updated their designs with more flair and put something of a story I'd guarantee you that the series would sell at least twice as good as now. It has nothing to do with difficulty because Tekken is almost as hard to learn and you don't see scrubs complaining about how hard learning Korean backdashing is. Why? Because they don't care and won't ever care and they're fine with that as long as they can press buttons and win.

Capcom ain't going down anytime soon, though if they keep trolling their fans, they might start hurting. The fact of the matter is that US is Capcom country and that's how it's going to stay. Not to mention you point out TKxSF which isn't even a thing yet.

SNK still has ground to make up. I think that KOFXIII was a great step in the right direction. It had a story mode, a much improved netcode, is one of the best playing KOF, lots of characters and has plenty of customization. If I were them, I'd strike while the iron's hot and get DLC characters going to keep the excitement going. While I dunno, how well they're doing when it comes to their games plan, I would like them to give Samurai Shodown this treatment as well, since it's the only other fighter know around the US from SNK.

[Xxenace]

The problem with Virtua Fighter and that always will be a problem with Virtua Fighter is that their character designs aren't anime enough and they don't have a story mode. It's basically got no universal appeal at all. It's all versus and some people don't accept that. Sadly, if they actually updated their designs with more flair and put something of a story I'd guarantee you that the series would sell at least twice as good as now. It has nothing to do with difficulty because Tekken is almost as hard to learn and you don't see scrubs complaining about how hard learning Korean backdashing is. Why? Because they don't care and won't ever care and they're fine with that as long as they can press buttons and win.

Capcom ain't going down anytime soon, though if they keep trolling their fans, they might start hurting. The fact of the matter is that US is Capcom country and that's how it's going to stay. Not to mention you point out TKxSF which isn't even a thing yet.

SNK still has ground to make up. I think that KOFXIII was a great step in the right direction. It had a story mode, a much improved netcode, is one of the best playing KOF, lots of characters and has plenty of customization. If I were them, I'd strike while the iron's hot and get DLC characters going to keep the excitement going. While I dunno, how well they're doing when it comes to their games plan, I would like them to give Samurai Shodown this treatment as well, since it's the only other fighter know around the US from SNK.

not trying to argue but i dont know about improved i would say picky at the least

[jinxhand]

The problem with Virtua Fighter and that always will be a problem with Virtua Fighter is that their character designs aren't anime enough and they don't have a story mode. It's basically got no universal appeal at all. It's all versus and some people don't accept that. Sadly, if they actually updated their designs with more flair and put something of a story I'd guarantee you that the series would sell at least twice as good as now. It has nothing to do with difficulty because Tekken is almost as hard to learn and you don't see scrubs complaining about how hard learning Korean backdashing is. Why? Because they don't care and won't ever care and they're fine with that as long as they can press buttons and win.

Capcom ain't going down anytime soon, though if they keep trolling their fans, they might start hurting. The fact of the matter is that US is Capcom country and that's how it's going to stay. Not to mention you point out TKxSF which isn't even a thing yet.

SNK still has ground to make up. I think that KOFXIII was a great step in the right direction. It had a story mode, a much improved netcode, is one of the best playing KOF, lots of characters and has plenty of customization. If I were them, I'd strike while the iron's hot and get DLC characters going to keep the excitement going. While I dunno, how well they're doing when it comes to their games plan, I would like them to give Samurai Shodown this treatment as well, since it's the only other fighter know around the US from SNK.

I think Sega needs to add a story mode (tons of people agree on VFDC also)... I personally feel that they also need to advertise characters with their alternate outfits, and addons... That there would bring more hype to those that feel that VF isn't anime enough... Hell, MK isn't anime-esque, and see how well it did... You make me think of how anime inspired SF really is, but so many people act like its not when there's been JP and US versions of a SF cartoon... Oh yeah, speaking of anime, VF even has one, and it got good reviews, too, so I'm not sure that one argument holds some weight... They do need a story though... Like it or not, a story mode does help people get into a game, whether they realize it or not... Being anime inspired doesn't make it sell more though... Anime by definition isn't a Japanese term, it's French, and it's just another term for "cartoon", so in essence, Mickey Mouse could be considered anime. It all ultimately falls down to how well put the story is, and how engrossing it is...

SNK does need to give us a solid Samsho game though, and finish that MoTW2 that was supposedly 85% complete... They should also hire someone other than GSS for their netcode, but that's probably not gonna happen...

[Running Wild]

I'd rather not see Virtua Fighter's designs become fucked over. There's plenty of customization options in the game already for that. Want to dress Eileen up as Miku Hatsune? You can do that. But her original design is already really good, and I think alot of VF characters look good enough with their default outfits and/or alternate.

We already have guys like Goh and Jean that stray far enough from Virtua Fighter's traditional designs standard as it is, I think those two look absolutely ridiculous by VF's standards.

As for story, I never really cared about that. Most fighting game stories are retarded as it is, only Mortal Kombat 9 managed to get it right. I doubt anyone wants to play VF for the story anyways when it's vague as hell.

[sibarraz]

The thing is, at this point adding story mode is really important, the best example is MK9, the game is awesome for lots of guys thanks to his amazing story mode, to a lesser extent blazblue, even kof 97 is highly regarded for the ending of orochi, even tekken gives some identity thanks to his history, if it's good or not, I don't know

But with VF, you just had like 15 generic guys who will not be as generic if you at least gave them a more detailed background

[Running Wild]

I don't think story mode is important, those 30 second animated clips in Street Fighter 4 or those voiced over illustrations and short cg endings in Tekken don't tell that much of a story really. Mortal Kombat outdid itself and really set the standard, but sadly it seems the competitive scene for the game has dried up since nobody cares about the game anymore. Meanwhile you got MvC3, a game with zero story, but it's flourishing.

I mean, growing up in the 90's with fighting games, the only stories we had were what the instruction booklet told you (which were often made up on the spot or contained false information), and the endings. That was it. Where is this deep KOF Story Saga ppl keep talking about? None of it is ever fully explained in any of the games, it's just vague as hell. You aren't given team backstories, you got the boss pre-fight dialogue and ending, that was it, and the endings were often irrelevant to anything.

Street Fighter is the same, except SF has tons of media from anime, comics/manga and shit to try to make some kind of reasoning out of it, even if it isn't canon, it's something. Plus Capcom was always retconning stuff, see the Alpha games.

VF would be fine with something like Tekken's prologue/epilogue+cg endings, but it doesn't need a visual novel story mode like BlazBlue or a near full length movie story mode told through in-game cutscenes like MK, or anime shit.

[solidshark]

With story, MK seems to be pleasing a lot of people. The way MK and I guess BB is doing their stories are what should be sought after by some. But given that MK story, I hope there's a big enough gap between this and the next MK game, if they want to keep doing those scenarios.
SF, since I know they won't, I'm just content with their stories being determined by their character achetypes. They missed some opportunities with SF3 I think, but oh well.

The fact that VF never had a story and never tried to establish one works in it's favor I think. It's like the truest fighting simulation in part because it focuses on that and nothing else. While I prefer fighters to have stories, I'm perfectly ok if they don't have one; it's better than if a story is half-assed.

With KOF, what they did with 13 was great; I hope they keep doing that. Even when the story scenarios were brief, the pre-fight dialogs did so much for highlighting what everyone was like, and how they've changed or grown (if they at all did). Not as long or as in-depth as MK, but shouldn't be if they plan to still do sagas, unless they plan to now do games that go over an entire saga, which would be too much work.


Outfit customization is the one thing I think across the board was going to and has improved. You'll always find some great 3D character customizations, KOFXIII may have set a new standard with how far you can take a color edit, etc.


Part of me would want to see a standard of training or information for FGs on disc. Much like VF4s training mode, or like BB did with the extra disc, something to get players deeper into the game. Rather than making the game easier for more people to come and play, a big step in the fighting game evolution should be to get more people into knowing how to play the games better. I was hoping KOF13 would have all those in-depth character videos they released for the arcade version, or up-to-date videos of console characters and changes to show players nearly everything everyone can do. I wish I could rely on the causals doing their own research with all the combo videos, strats, and wikis out there. I do wish...

[Proto Cloud]

I think Sega needs to add a story mode (tons of people agree on VFDC also)... I personally feel that they also need to advertise characters with their alternate outfits, and addons... That there would bring more hype to those that feel that VF isn't anime enough... Hell, MK isn't anime-esque, and see how well it did... You make me think of how anime inspired SF really is, but so many people act like its not when there's been JP and US versions of a SF cartoon...

Good Lord, you do know that MK is AMERICAN made, right?

@RunningWild:

Izlude, there's ways of making things anime without going overboard. You forget that you still suck Terry and Ryo's cock at the same time on multiple occasions. What I mean is that they're designs are outdated and they plain look atrocious compared to the quality designs that Tekken cranks out all the time. It's like Sega is still living in the mid-90s. That shit doesn't work anymore. You don't have do anything drastic, but it's about time characters like Lion and such need some updating.

You point that story doesn't matter but it does. MK's scene is still flourishing, despite what you say and has more to do with developer hotfixes and the game engine itself and yet it still managed to beat out Blazblue at EVO this year. Tekken has MORE than enough story to go on with it's CAMPAIGN MODE and a shitton of extras. MvC3 has no story whatsoever, but it sold simply because of its namesake, if it did have a story and had more time in the cooker, I could GUARANTEE you it would've sold more than MK9.

Virtua Fighter doesn't need a whole schtick like Tekken does, but giving some background on the characters and updating some of their blander designs would easily elevate their sales. Sega should be taking note because arcades aren't going to last forever and while that design philosophy worked back before Tekken 3 was champ and the internet took control of the world.

Don't get me wrong. I love Virtua Fighter for what it is and it's a fantastic game, but if they want to a piece of the FGC, they're going to have to do better than they have. I understand that fighting games are low budget niche titles, but they can be better than that and thinking in such a narrow way isn't going to make things any better.

[Running Wild]

What's wrong with Virtua Fighter's designs? I mean really... alot of the characters look pretty good, and really, it's not their designs that are the selling point, it's their amazingly fluid fighting styles and animation, which no other fighting game can even come close to matching. Akira is really the only plain looking guy on the entire roster (You can't have a fighting game without some kind of traditional guy in a karate gi, I mean c'mon), and Lion sucks dicks no matter what, but don't forget, there are alternate outfits and customization options, so it's a moot point. The majority of VF cast is pretty chill, Jacky, Sarah, Wolf, Lau, Shun, Jeffery, Aoi, Brad Burns, Lei Fei, etc. Lei Fei is especially an awesome design and is something never done in a fighting game before.

Anyways, there is background information on the characters, they all have small stories, but it's never mentioned in-game, only in manuals or on the official websites. It's not mindblowing shit, but they all have their reasons for entering the tournaments, even if it's very vague and there is no real outcome, resolution or much of an on-going story. But really, who plays fighting games for story? If I wanted that, I'd pick up an RPG.

Also the whole Virtua Fighter series sold pretty well, save for like VF3 since it came out so late on the Dreamcast. Both Virtua Fighter 4/Evo and VF5 on PS3 sold pretty well. Well enough to merit being re-released as Greatest Hits (+500k copies sold), I believe both 4 and 5 moved over a million units. Virtua Fighter is fine as it is, Sega is giving us the latest version of the game finally, all the bells and whistles, and both console versions are gonna have online mode, which VF5 on PS3 lacked, which was a major crippling factor. I don't expect VF to outsell Tekken, but I want it to do well enough and hopefully get a better competitive scene in the west.

There is an event happening at South Town arcade next month with Sega, hopefully this is the start of a string of events and major rep for VF5FS in the USA.