Generic Punishes + Don't Punish Thread

[choysauce]

Wanted to consolidate a list of common blockstrings/moves that can and should be punished by namely Guard Cancel Rolling and character specific moves.


PUNISHES

=Kyo
cr.B, cr.A, df.D, fireball (GC Roll)
Upkicks (Hit btw) (1f punish after 2nd kick)

=EX Kyo
cr.B, cr.B, st.B, rekka (Fast Reversal)
Upkicks (Hit btw) (1f punish after 2nd kick)

=Beni
??
=Goro
??


=Terry
cl.C/df.C, D Crackshoot (Hit Btw)
cl.C/df.C, Powerwave (GC Roll)

=Andy
cr.Bx3, Zeineken (Hit Btw) (Fast Reversal)
hcf+K, -4 (hcf B) and -6 (brake)

=Joe
st.C, f.B, Hurricane Upper (GC Roll)


=Billy
explosion stick+followup (GC Roll)

=Ash
??

=Saiki
cr.D, fireball (GC Roll)


=Ryo
st.D, fireball (GC Roll)

=Robert
Target Combo, fireball (GC Roll)

=Takuma
??

=Mr.Karate
??


=Iori
cl.C, f.A, Underclaw (GC Roll)

=EX Iori
cl.C, f.A, fireball (GC Roll)

=Mature
??

=Vice
cl.D, f.A, sleeve (GC Roll)

=Elisabeth
cl.C, f.B, A DP (GC Roll back) (Fast Reversal)

=Duo Lon
cl.C, fireball (Jump/Hop)
rekkax3, teleport (Fast, far reaching reversal)

=Shen
??


=Kim
??

=Hwa
df.B, axe kick (Hit btw)

=Raiden
Shoulder Charge (-4)


=Mai
cr.D, fanthrow (GC Roll)

=King
slide, fireball (GC Roll)

=Yuri
cl.C, fireball (GC Roll)
cr.B, st.B, demonflip (Jumpback C, roll)


=K'
ein trigger, fireball (Hit Btw)
ein trigger, followup (GC Roll)

=Kula
cl.C, f.A, icebreath (Jump[C] GC Roll [A])
Rayspin (Hit Btw)

=Maxima
Target Combo, Repulsion (GC Roll)



=Athena
cr.C, fireball (GC Roll)
B Phoenix Arrow (1f punish)
st.C, f.B (Hit btw)

=Kensou
cr.D, fireball (GC Roll)

=Chin
??


=Ralf
??

=Clark
??

=Leona
st.CD, Grand Sabre (Hit Btw)


obv i don't know all the good punishes, and did not list things that are super obvious (like DP's)
Please help out if you can.

also of course people can decide to not do the full string making it safe from GC rolls.

[choysauce]

This section is for moves that are deceptively safe/positive on block, don't attempt to push a button unless you know what you are doing.

DON'T PUNISH

=Kyo

=EX Kyo

=Beni

=Goro



=Terry
Spaced Burn Knuckle
Spaced Weak Crack shoot - Normally -2 on block, spaced away makes it difficult to punish.
Strong Crack shoot - Blocked High, it's -1 on block, but blocked low it puts him at +2.

=Andy
Cartwheel Kick
EX zaneiken?

=Joe
Spaced Flying kick

=Billy
Elevator (on block)

=Ash
??

=Saiki


=Ryo

=Robert
Neomax

=Takuma
EX Cadillac kick

=Mr.Karate
everything


=Iori

=EX Iori

=Mature


=Vice

=Elisabeth

=Duo Lon

=Shen
??


=Kim
EX HamGetsYouSam

=Hwa

=Raiden


=Mai

=King

=Yuri


=K'
d.B, d.A, qcf+A(Blocked)
st.C(1 hit), qcf+A (Blocked)

=Kula

=Maxima
d.A, df+C, Weak Vapor Cannon (Blocked) - He's positive on block

=Athena
EX Phoenix Arrow

=Kensou

=Chin
EX fist punch


=Ralf
Gut punch?

=Clark
EX Bowflex

=Leona
D/EX Grand sabre


i know many of the blockstrings listed in the PUNISH section are either 0 or positive on block at the end of them (hence why people use them)

let me know if you feel that they should be included on this DONT PUNISH list marked as (+on block)

[FataCon]

Instead of saying "char spec punishes", you should probably give a move example or type of punishes. Can you punish with a command grab, or a far-reaching move, or what? Saying a punish is character specific doesn't really help a player understand how to punish something, it just tells them something can be punished. At least by specifying a type of punish, a player can say, "Hey, my character can do that."

If I said " Duo Lon - rekka x3, teleport [char spec punish]", that doesn't really give me much to work with.

I think it's a good idea to make a list like this, just fine tune the details a bit.

[choysauce]

for that listing, i wanted to just let people know it is in fact punishable. i wouldn't be able to give all the examples.
but i can be more specific, i will fix this.

thank you fatacon!

please give more suggestions and also moves/typical strings that have weaknesses

[SPLIPH]

pretty sure the only time its not safe to punish andys kuuhadan and brake is if he uses EX DP afterwards. his fireball strings are also punishable with guardroll. they are tight, but his zaneikan have a lot of punishes. somebody posted a video for it.

it looks like it will be a lot of work to cover everything and also in an organized way, but this could be a really amazing thread. i already learned something from it. didnt know i could punish claw iori pressure with guard roll. that was wreaking havoc on my guard gauge.

[LAB Falken]

http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1652.60

andy is -4 (hcf B) and -6 (brake) respectively, technically you can punish regardless of EX DP, you just have to have a normal that starts up in 4 to 6 frames. C kuuhadan is very unsafe period.

[Reiki.Kito]

Well, I play Maxima, Terry, K', and Mai so I can tell you things that look unsafe, but you probably won't punish them.


Maxima (Safe)
d.A, df+C, Weak Vapor Cannon (Blocked) - He's positive on block

Terry (Safe)
Spaced Weak Crack shoot - Normally -2 on block, spaced away makes it difficult to punish.
Strong Crack shoot - Blocked High, it's -1 on block, but blocked low it puts him at +2. Save for a throw, you won't punish him.

K'
d.B, d.A, qcf+A(Blocked)
st.C(1 hit), qcf+A (Blocked)

[Tikok]

DON'T PUNISH
=Raiden
Shoulder charge (on block)

It's not safe, anyone with a 4f move with long enough reach can punish it. Kula can punish it with s.B for example.

=Athena
EX Phoenix Arrow

It's also, unfortunately for my lovely Athena , not safe :/ . 3f moves can punish it.

[choysauce]

are you sure about that? i thought the B phoenix arrow has that property, i haven't seen anyone punish ex phoenix arrow before

[LAB Falken]

She is slightly negative but I haven't been able to punish it with any 3f normals.

[Reiki.Kito]

She is slightly negative but I haven't been able to punish it with any 3f normals.

If the frames haven't changed from Arcade, it says that it's -2 on block. Means you can command grab her or normal throw her. Also, Kyo's EX Orochinagi, Mai's Neomax, and other 1-frame moves can beat it.

[FataCon]

Be careful using the term "command grab" interchangeably with "1f grab". Examples of commonly used command throws which are not 1f: Shen's Tamaken (5f), Liz's Mistral (7f), Goro's Osotogari (9f). Thus, these wouldn't be good for punishing in those -2/-3 frame situations. Saying 1f grab is also inclusive of normal throws. Just a thought.

[Tikok]

Oh, my bad about EX Phoenix arrow then. I thought I punished it with 3f normals in practice mode, guess I was wrong. But yeah, she's still negative.

[DarKaoZ]

Dunno if this works as a "punishment" but you can jump forward after Andy's BREAK and if he does something after it, like his DP, you are free to do a huge damage combo.