Balance issues and constructive suggestions

[MUSOLINI]

we think alike rex, cause those 4 characters are the ones ive been hating on the most since the vids of this game being released.

k, jump d fix, qcf+p change, also for its follow ups (not safe either would help, cept for his teleport).

raiden, lowering damage on drop kicks with at least 25%, and having to charge them tiwce as long (8, 16, 24 and 32 second charge would fix raiden perfectly).

lizzy, dp umsafe on block, a version only able to follow up with dm (unless in corner), dp c version should have more scaling on all follow ups.

kula, lowering damage output and making qcb+k less safe on black, same for her follow ups.

if snkp actually has the brains to do these actions or something similar along these lines, then i think we could have the best and most well balanced kof in history. everybody should be viable.

now besides this, we need all the standardd console goodies. good netocode, maybe an extra team (or 2) and where good.

now for the people playing this game, just how bad is the input lag? the jpn players bash this and the balancing the most. is it kof 12 bad, or ssf4 bad, or better than both but still bad for a kof?

[ZombiesAteDiana]

If releasing this game is a worry I say SNKP goes with Aksys. As for balancing is concern raiden would be better balanced if the charge time was changed and the notes about making some moves more unsafe on block.

[JeremyH]

I honestly don't get all the nerf liz talk.  I'm sure we're all watching the same vids, and everything I see makes me think other characters are scarier.  For instance, I find Andy to seem a lot more intimidating.  I also see the damage on pro-rated super sometimes and think "Was that really worth it?"  Raiden I can understand, K' I can understand, but other than being an easy to use, I don't see Liz really staying top 3. I of course haven't gotten a chance to play yet, but I don't think being a dial-a-combo character warrants this much hatred.  Based simply on vids though I feel like Andy is better.  Liz you can zone to a point, while Andy has a better set of normals plus the added benefits of having a fireball and AA dp.  To that effect, an argument could also be made for robert.  

Of course I may be biased, I did really like Liz (L) in XI, but I felt she was only really viable with Leader, since you could punish jumps.  With having that option gone, I feel she would suffer from the same things she did in XI, namely trouble getting in and staying in.  The fact that now you have cmd grab and dp together is sexy, but it doesn't seem like many go for the cmd grab, which is something that may become more apparent to myself once I actually have time with the game.  

So honestly, is the liz hate just because she is so simpo?  Because I'm unimpressed by the damage, especially in comparison to of course Raiden, K', and Andy.

EDIT: I also think Iori, Kyo, Yuri, and possibly even takuma may be better, just to clarify (I don't hate andy, lol). 

[MUSOLINI]

40% + meterless and non corner combos dont seem broken? unless im wrong about that damage?

[Rex Dart]

So honestly, is the liz hate just because she is so simpo?  Because I'm unimpressed by the damage, especially in comparison to of course Raiden, K', and Andy.

Please don't think I want Liz to be nerfed because I hate her. I think she's a fine character. The only reason I'd want to see her re-balanced is because I think it would make the game more fun.

You mention Andy as a better candidate for a nerf, and while I agree he's quite strong and has lots of good moves, the difference is that he actually uses most of his moves. If you weaken any one of Andy's moves (uppercut, fireball, elbow strike or kick), it would hurt him badly. Watching most Andy videos, I think you'll notice people employing nearly all his moves in order to win.

Elizabeth's problem is not just that she's strong. It's that her uppercut and uppercut DM are disproportionately strong to the rest of her moveset. Her combination of combos, counters and command-throw SHOULD make her very fun to play and watch (more like Chin, in my opinion), but her combos are just too easy, too safe, and too damaging, so the rest of her tool set just doesn't get utilized.

Call me crazy, but I honestly think she'd be more fun if her uppercut / DM weren't the only thing she did.

Same goes for Raiden actually. No one mentions it much, but I think the characters themselves really suffer from these over-powered moves. They're more fun when they're forced to show versatility.

[MUSOLINI]

lizzy really fucking without all the retarded dp/dm shit going on. and raiden, even with nerfed dk hed still be god tier in this game. these 4 characters are soo strong that even with nerfing theyd still at least be high tier characters.

[JeremyH]

Please don't think I want Liz to be nerfed because I hate her. I think she's a fine character. The only reason I'd want to see her re-balanced is because I think it would make the game more fun.

You mention Andy as a better candidate for a nerf, and while I agree he's quite strong and has lots of good moves, the difference is that he actually uses most of his moves. If you weaken any one of Andy's moves (uppercut, fireball, elbow strike or kick), it would hurt him badly. Watching most Andy videos, I think you'll notice people employing nearly all his moves in order to win.

Elizabeth's problem is not just that she's strong. It's that her uppercut and uppercut DM are disproportionately strong to the rest of her moveset. Her combination of combos, counters and command-throw SHOULD make her very fun to play and watch (more like Chin, in my opinion), but her combos are just too easy, too safe, and too damaging, so the rest of her tool set just doesn't get utilized.

Call me crazy, but I honestly think she'd be more fun if her uppercut / DM weren't the only thing she did.

Same goes for Raiden actually. No one mentions it much, but I think the characters themselves really suffer from these over-powered moves. They're more fun when they're forced to show versatility.

Well I don't mention Andy in that I think he should be nerfed, but moreso in that I think he's a stronger character overall. 

As far as the DM and uppercut DM being too strong, I rarely see her damage coming from a well placed uppercut, or even lucky trades/anti-airs.  With the most recent vids posted in the video thread, you see all of her damage coming from her crossup, or just good punishment.  Which kind of goes back to what I was originally saying about her being a dial-a-combo simple character.  The majority of the time (Or at least it seems so in vids) she is waiting on a punishment opportunity, or hits a well place counter, or a crossup B, and leads into the combo.  With that being said, I could agree with making her DP unsafe, but I don't think that's going to make people complain any less. 

As far as the DM, again, the damage strictly from the DM seems disproportion to the hate it gets.  I could understand more of an argument based on her being too good of a battery, but when I see them hit the DM I just think "I wonder if that meter would've been better off with an EX move" or possibly saved for later.  Check the most recent vids and you can see, the DM is not where the damage is coming from.  In fact most of the damage I see is from hitting the clean C into whatever, but again, similar comparisons can be made with other characters (Kyo for instance). 

I can understand wanting to see her do more, but honestly, with her moveset, there really isn't much else.  In a game where random damage can lead to huge losses (Via maxmode/drivecancels/etc) trying a more unsafe approach (say... using more cmd grabs) can make a large difference in whether a character is playable or not. 

If anything I find her playstyle to be a little on the boring side, as I myself would mix in more counters and cmd grabs (Probably a bad idea), but if you're going to suggest changes for her, I think something more than "NERF DP/DM!" would be more appropriate.  Honestly though, I look at it the same as Kyo. 

st. C, f+B, dp C, dp A×2, j.D, qcf hcb+P
or
st. C, df+D (1), qcf+K, rdp+B, qcb hcf+P

The damage isn't that far apart.  The important thing to remember as well is how each is going to fair in the match.  For example, without meter Kyo is undoubtedly going to be a superior choice, and also (imo) has an overall better moveset and normals.  He also has a much more damaging NeoMax combo, as opposed to the mediocre combos Liz is provided with (So far). 

Things like that are why I don't understand people continually putting her on the chopping block.  There are considerable reasons to place other characters above her, and unfortunately since we only have theory fighter atm, I don't think a lot of those reasons have come to light (if they ever will).  Obviously I'm not saying this is how things are, but definitely something I myself have considered.

[MUSOLINI]

difference is that the kyo combo is only possible in corner. iirc that is.

[t3h mAsTarOth...!]

I said it before and i'll say it again. Nothing in the game needs to be nerfed besides Raiden's Drop Kick. And for that all that needs to be done is making ONLY "1" charge possible at a time at EVERY "16" seconds...

[Aenthin]

Are there any Filipino KOF gamers here?

Yes.


Regarding the tiers topic, I always thought Andy, Shen and Kyo were pretty high up there too. The only difference is, the godly four are actually much easier to use than any other character. I can see that everybody has a chance to take the spotlight but the learning curve is much steeper than, say Liz.

Also on Raiden, well he might have godly drop kicks, but he can't use level 3 or 4 immediately in the game. I guess he does need a few nerfs about that but then, holding one or two kick buttons also means he can't roll or use the blowback option. He also loses his overhead with his close standing D. Not to mention, just because you can hold the kick button rather easily doesn't mean you're an instant pro at punishing people who are expecting it.

[Shiranui_ninja]

About the buff/nerf discussion. I'm totally for rebalancing god-tiers. About what Rex-Dart said about console/casual players will get bored because of Raiden and K'... I'm not sure.. I think this people will simply pick up them to win and they will be happy. Look what happens with shotos in SSFIV. 3 of 4 opponents are Ryu/Ken. But anyway i think people who decided select other characters besides K'-Raiden-Liz should have a chance to win, and,  let's face it, win a K'-Raiden-Liz team with, let's say, Mai-King-Mature (my main team) could be really really hard...

So, they should nerf drop kick of Raiden. Just less damage, and more adjusted damage scaling when you combo it.
For K' I think they have to nerf him in general. Pokes preferences, speed, damage and to have to use EX moves to execute good combos (Is for what EX were done, right?). I think his basic combo is too cheap and too damaging. Maybe K' fans will get angry, but what about Terry, Mai, Ryo, Athena, Leona, Clark, Ralf, King, fans??

The same for Kula. Less damage and less defense. And the need to use EX moves in combos.

About Liz, maybe less damage. I'm not sure. But if she doesn't make the cut in KOFXIV I'll be happy.

The rest of the cast I think is fine. Andy is good, like Kyo or Iroi, but I don't see them as broken characters like the infamous 4.

And in general, I think damaging scaling should be rebalanced.

[krazykone123]

I said it before and i'll say it again. Nothing in the game needs to be nerfed besides Raiden's Drop Kick. And for that all that needs to be done is making ONLY "1" charge possible at a time at EVERY "16" seconds...

You do realize nerfing his dropkick won't make him any less of a godlike character right?

So, they should nerf drop kick of Raiden. Just less damage, and more adjusted damage scaling when you combo it.

Once again, you do realise nerfing his dropkick won't make him any less of a godlike character right? besides
you can't scale the damage of the dropkicks in a combo if you don't actually combo it.

- LVL. 4 drop kick, st.A, LVL. 4 drop kick

[sibarraz]

Even though one could watch one hundred videos, I think that none of us has to much to say about nerfings besides the guys who had constantly played the game or has some way to play it

even though yeah, the dropkick is not the only problem that raiden has, without it the guy still has lots of weapons at simple view

[Shiranui_ninja]

Yes, maybe sibarraz has the point when says no one of us should talk about rebalance except those who play the game. But I remember Answer saying "nerf Raiden's drop kick, then I will play again that game" (I guess he was kidding, because he actually play it xD, but I guess he was not joking about Raiden's buff).

I think drop kick is the real problem with Raiden, but if it's not the only one, then nerf him more, in general.

[Rakukojin]

I don't agree with nerfing Raiden or Elizabeth, they're very strong but not broken imo. Honestly, I have more trouble against a good Kyo or Andy than Raiden or Elizabeth.