Elisabeth Branctorche (Arcade Version)

[Reiki.Kito]

In all honesty, she went from being a 4 to a 3 or 2 on the tier list. She's dumb right now, but the reduced damage makes her Terry status (Where combos require meter and don't do a huge amount of damage. However, the combos go on forever like Kula and with DC, she still can get up there.

[FataCon]

In Regards to her NEO-MAX, since its a screen Filler...it would work(im thinking theoretically) 

I thought her NeoMax only worked vs physical attacks, i.e. no projectiles?

[TheRook]

In Regards to her NEO-MAX, since its a screen Filler...it would work(im thinking theoretically) 

I thought her NeoMax only worked vs physical attacks, i.e. no projectiles?

yeah im not sure i was just saying in theory...it mite work~ don't take my word for it~

[Saitsuofleaves]

I would assume if it could counter Projectiles, we might actually see Liz's use her NeoMax every once in a while (put a threat against people to say don't toss plasma at me?  I'll take that).

[Kane317]

In all honesty, she went from being a 4 to a 3 or 2 on the tier list. She's dumb right now, but the reduced damage makes her Terry status (Where combos require meter and don't do a huge amount of damage. However, the combos go on forever like Kula and with DC, she still can get up there.

I'll politely disagree, she still deals a lot of damage.  391, mid screen, no drive, 1 stock is nothing to scoff at. There are at least 2-3 characters that do less or the same as her in the corner where you're meant to do much more damage.  We're talking about basically 40% of your life 1 stock.  She may deal less but she still has tons of options and it's not like her non-dm combos are weak either.

Defensive options; her best defensive option was probably EX counter. With nerfed meter gain you'll have much less access to prediction counters, and the follow up has also been nerfed, which again means less damage and less meter built back (assuming you were even successful with your counter).

IMO, her best defensive options are honestly some form of poke or qcf+P into DM.

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Let's not forget her new additional property of her Ex qcf+K; she still has her mixup game which is partly what made her so solid.  Lastly, from the videos (and even metioned in Dune's elive interview) you can tell the meter gain is different on the defensive end now so building up to 1 stock should be easy.

EDIT: I tried finding my old list but I dunno where I posted it, probably in the Shen vs Liz discussion somewhere.

IMO what makes Liz strong are these combination of options which as far as I know are in the console:

-Decent combos even without meter
-Strong midscreen (anywhere) 1 stock combo, no drive combo.  Why is this important?  You may not build a drive in the first round, although you should, but you should definitely build a stock in the first round. Basically, it's a realistic BnB.
-Above average normals (j.CD, j.D, j.B) with a reliable crossup
-Start strong combos off low hits
-Ex Command throw mix up
-Ex Counter follow ups
-Efficient character in all positions
-Ex qcf+P still removes a lot of Guard meter.

[SAB-CA]

Replying to Fatacon's post from the General Discussion thread...:

I can't really agree with that. If you played her, you'd know that pretty much all her moves had important utility.
- qcf + p built meter and was integral for combos
- dp used for practically all combos and anti-air
- command grab for mixups, EX version for combo potential
- EX counter was a strong reversal

You're taking what I'm saying too literaly! But as a counter point, how many matches have you seen with her, where almost ALL that was used was a spam of Jump CD / Jump D, and then the anywhere juggle DM?

I agree that she was a character with a well-rounded (by design) moveset, but she basically has a 2nd DM that no one used, teleport movement that was barely used, and lots of her players could completly forget her command throw / maybe even counter, and play in a straight-forward, dry way.

I don't really see how her counter gets so much worse by basically losing the 2 normal hits and / or HD activation chance off it. She's not forced into drive cancelling to do a combo, and she still has a special that can be looped into a normal reset + DM after it.

The only thing she didn't use a lot was teleport. It was gimmicky, but you could still use it decently in blockstrings. I think people just rode the wave of hating Liz. All they needed to do was tone down her damage, not necessarily change the properties on her moves. If they toned down her dmg and took away the meter gain on her qcf + P, she would have been fine. EX counter is going to be terribly inefficient after the changes. If you think about it, they're only making her more stagnant.

Eh, don't see the increase in stagnation. The EX Dash give her the unique ability to add invunlerability to any EX move she has, all for one bar. compared to the old EX counter & qcf+p meter build putting people on extreme movespam / turtle strategy settings. With her new changes, there are actually things you want to save meter for, other than Turtley Counter and anywhere juggle DM.

Also, making the EX Counter, EX Dash, and EX throw all have the same followup (A special move) works towards making each meter-burning option equal. It become less about "save the meter for the counter", and more "save the meter for the best option, per situation". Along with the "weaker" EX counter now making the Neomax Counter more tempting to use.

I think the changes they actually instilled are just more ambitious than the methods you stated. Not saying yours couldn't have worked or anything, just that... as a person who played Liz in XI (she was my main reason for playing it, actually!), what they've given her now, sounds so much more interesting than what she was. A multi-way mixup out of an EX) command dash just sounds excellent. Grab their slow-uptake moment, punish their backdash with a dashing uppercut, continue chip damage with a swooping arch special... Each of which will get more damage and follow up potential, if you guessed right.

I think the design philosophy for her character was less to be an unmoving wall (as her old options made her), and more to make her a free-flowing, "on your feet" kind of attacker, who had the bonus of being able to read and predict her opponents, no matter the situation. Basically making her stronger at deal with things up-close, and taking away her distanced, abusable stuff, has given her a more interesting focus.

Some players might still make her into something of a 1-trick pony (exaggeration!), but I think she'll be a better character overall, now.

If someone told me I'd be able to take Shermie's Diamond Dust EX, and turn it into any other EX move, I'd have been so happy .... Oh well. Shermie Alt colors for Liz, here we go!

[t3h mAsTarOth...!]

i like SNK's XIII style method of changing a character... it's WAY better than BB's method of changing characters... they either buff their characters to have/take-away everything... or make a character into something else completely... getting on point...

till now i found XIII Liz really boring... i agree with SAB-CA here... i like how they toned down her damage a bit now... but she still has ALL her options AND MORE now... EX tele letting u do another EX special for free? come on that's so cool... think of the crazy mix-ups u can do from this along with everything else she can do... might actually play her now...

[TheRook]

well im actuall cool with the changes as she seems more fun and intricate now~ as SAB-CA exaggeration implied~ one trick pony~ but it was true, most people used her in a sort of rush down only character that must have a high damage output as if there wasnt already enough characters that do that~ haha. point is Liz plays like the way she was intended to be be played now i would guess~ and it makes me want to get used to playing her in that way~

[Kane317]

First page has been updated with console changes:

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- Etincelle (qcf+P) builds up less meter
- Ex Reverie-Geler (qcb+P) has a longer recovery time on a success. Because of that, normal moves can’t be used to make an additional hit. The recovery time can be canceled with a special.
- An Ex version of her Reverie-Souhaiter (qcb+K) and Reverie-Prier (qcf+K) have been added in the game. It’s invincible while in movement and cancelable with a special. What’s more, the special will automatically come out as an Ex version without the cost of a meter. However, supers are an exception and will not turn into an Ex.
* Grand Rafale’s (qcf,hcb+P) damage has been dropped from 200 to 150.
- Noble-Blanche (qcf*2+P) has longer invincibility.
- Ex Noble-Blanche’s hitbox has been changed so that it’s easier to get in all the multiple hits. With this change, it lands full hit in the corner.
* Grand Rafale has more Max cancelable frames.

Producer Yamamoto says:
With the new Ex version of Reverie-souhaiter and Reverie-prier, she has more options for attacks. It can even be used as a sort of running throw with Mistral (hcb~f+P), so please try things out. Grand Rafale’s damage has been reduced to 150, but it can be Max canceled even after the first hit now. Also, Noble-Blanche can be Max canceled as well, so it can be used in various situations such as the finishing touch on combos.

[omegaryuji]

With the change to backdashes, anyone feeling some love for Lizzy again?  qcf+D~dp+P on opponent's wakeup should chase down reversal backdashes pretty nicely, maybe even fast enough to pop them up before the backdash is over for a free juggle.  Maybe even scarier if she opts to reset with an immediate nj.D after the dp+P instead (depending on how well she can crossup or dash under afterwards), since she might have the potential to do something like a 5 or 6 way mixup....

[marchefelix]

- An Ex version of her Reverie-Souhaiter (qcb+K) and Reverie-Prier (qcf+K) have been added in the game. It’s invincible while in movement and cancelable with a special. What’s more, the special will automatically come out as an Ex version without the cost of a meter. However, supers are an exception and will not turn into an Ex.
[/quote

This change is so badass! Got me to thinking about what if other characters' EX dashes did that? Too cool? Or too much?

[Rex Dart]

I don't think any other character has an Elizabeth-style dash move. K', Duolon and Athena have moves that seem more like teleports than dashes. In my experience, they're primarily used for spacing and extending combos. Liz's is mainly for safely advancing and mix-ups.

So I don't think allowing anyone else to cancel into EX moves for free would make as much sense.

[marchefelix]

I don't think any other character has an Elizabeth-style dash move. K', Duolon and Athena have moves that seem more like teleports than dashes. In my experience, they're primarily used for spacing and extending combos. Liz's is mainly for safely advancing and mix-ups.

So I don't think allowing anyone else to cancel into EX moves for free would make as much sense.

I didn't think of it in that way... I guess you're right about it not making sense for other characters. For K' and Duolon, I can definitely see how it would make no sense. Athena, though, seems to have potential, I believe. She can follow up her dash/teleport with a Psycho Sword or her command grab (which I believe has extended reach in EX form). The latter, I believe, can be a set up for something good.

[THE ANSWER]

I don't think any other character has an Elizabeth-style dash move. K', Duolon and Athena have moves that seem more like teleports than dashes. In my experience, they're primarily used for spacing and extending combos. Liz's is mainly for safely advancing and mix-ups.

So I don't think allowing anyone else to cancel into EX moves for free would make as much sense.

I agree the range on her "teleport" (actually I call it step) is very short which limits the the use for it, I don't see nothing wrong with her having a free ex-move after it.

[Kane317]

I don't think any other character has an Elizabeth-style dash move. K', Duolon and Athena have moves that seem more like teleports than dashes. In my experience, they're primarily used for spacing and extending combos. Liz's is mainly for safely advancing and mix-ups.

So I don't think allowing anyone else to cancel into EX moves for free would make as much sense.

I agree the range on her "teleport" (actually I call it step) is very short which limits the the use for it, I don't see nothing wrong with her having a free ex-move after it.

Goro's command roll is the closet thing to Liz's move, in range and the fact that it cannot roll past the opponent.