The Judge's Letter

[migrations]

I don't understand what's wrong with #snkplaymore.  As a fledgling fighter it's been an AMAZING resource for getting information and talking to people about KOF games.  It's also MUCH more mature in the discussions then the running gag that is #capcom.  How can you have an agenda behind a chat room?  A chat room is just a collection of people and there seem to be many moderators in the place, not just one. 
    I guess I'm just confused Geese about why it is bad, it's helped me out a LOT. Is there some thing bad about that place that should warrant me not going in the chat room anymore?

[krazykone123]

Is there some thing bad about that place that should warrant me not going in the chat room anymore?

Nope, I can't think of any. I'll never understand the reason why some people around here hold some personal vendetta against the folks in the chat, they're good people. Well most of them are anyway.

[desmond_kof]

I have no problems with anyone in the chat room but as I mention there are some people that get on my nerves and make it feel like high school...same with some people I know and associate with offline, lol.

[the_judge]

I personally think people need to just accept #snkplaymore. At this point in time, it has established itself well.
Being uncomfortable talking with the regulars in the #snkplaymore channel does not really warrant a new chatroom.

[jinxhand]

I like to think in a more positive light about things.  Maybe the US community isn't too great, but the KOF community as a whole remains strong on GGPO and theres always great competition and people to learn from on there.  

Besides this #snkplaymore is a great IRC chat with lots of people that know a shit load and are really willing to help out.  One great thing about the KOF community is that KOF fans are like fighting game snobs, we aren't okay with simple fireball-uppercut characters with the same moves every year.  Because of this snobbery our community may not be as big as the Capcom community, but it seems to me to be much more mature and less polluted with random scrubs.

I like the fact that KOF is a bit niche, and with KOF XIII on the consoles, we have a chance to get pretty excited about something (Online net play is the key factor I think).  I'm pretty new to the SNKPlaymore community in general and as a new player I have a passionate optimism for the future of KOF games, and no matter what others do or say we'll always have good competition via GGPO and each other.

There are alot of "closet KoFers" in the sense that they play KoF with 1 or 2 of their friends, but don't have a need to build from that area and don't get out, or they just play arcade mode and get on practice mode riding solo, but they don't get out and battle people (even if they have an online mode)... I know for me, when I was living in Hawaii, a few friends and I played KoF 2003 non-stop and where we played at we would get a bunch of "closet KoFers" that would play and end up buying the game and getting involved more. By the time KoFXI came out for arcades, what started as a few cats on console turned into at least 10-20 people at the Tilt up north, and even people from Hawaiian Brians Billards (HBB for short) would come up there and battle, and vice versa since they had a machine there, with a spectating monitor...

I personally don't mind the fact that KoF seems like a niche, but for awhile the fighting game genre was (and probably still is) considered a niche, so to have a niche within a niche you won't really get noticed... I don't want KoF to sell out to the point that the next installment gets dumbed down so that there's no point in learning the game (i.e. - super noob friendly system changes), but I would love for KoFXIII to be that one game that brings out all KoF players, and makes the "fans" actually want to be more than that (by getting involved with the scene overall)... I'm not knocking the fans at all, but FPS "fans" don't talk about how the HK-5(or pick another weapon) is pretty. They break that (or whatever) weapon down understanding what maps its good for, in what rooms/spaces and against what type of players... Why should we be talking about "Oh I like Kyo's jacket in 2003", when cats aren't even breaking his movelist down, putting up strats and matchups??? I mean don't get me wrong, that "omg" mess is cool for the off topic boards, but I've come across stuff back in the day for many different games (KoF included) where dudes would talk about everything about the game (graphics, sound, etc), except for the game itself (system, combos, strats, etc)...

(my bad for the late post btw)...

[Dark Geese]

Okay if you guys want I will post why I do not personally like the #snkplaymore channel. I am respectfully going to post this, but many of the people in there do not really contribute positively to the scene. I speak of these people as The Leech Gang, and basically what it is is anyone that is trying to do something positive they enjoy degrading or putting them down. One of them in particular demonstrated this trait when they posted up on a video that someone should "Just quit playing the game." This is the attitude of The Leech Gang, always looking to cast a stone at someone, but not willing to look in the mirror!

They enjoy on that channel degrading people behind their backs, discouraging uploading videos, discouraging playing offline, and I could go on and on and on. I have more than enough proof from countless people (That I will choose to keep confidential) that I have seen this over and over and over, not just with how much my name is brought up in their chats behind my back, but also how others are seeing the same type of stuff I see over and over and over again, and it is not productive to the scene at all, they enjoy doing this. So keep in mind people, you will rarely see this while you are on, but when you leave they are talking behind your back.

Again if that channel works for you great, but it does not work for many people because of what I have just stated. These people are quick to criticize anyone trying to do something when they themselves are not in a position to do such a thing, they are holding the SNK community back.

When you degrade people constantly that are uploading videos it discourages people from wanting to upload videos, and then ontop of that you challenge these people to come out and play and they refuse, this laziness in turn permeates throughout the community. Like The Judge says in his letter, you have those that want to travel and those do not.

People unknowingly place the Japanese on a tier because they travel and are willing to get stronger, while you now have "Generation G" (G for GGPO), this new wave of online players that do not travel and do not see a need to travel.

This goes against everything that tournaments stand for, for these people would have very little to talk about if no one travelled to tournaments.

So think about that, when they are helping you learn things, behind your back they are degrading you... So again, I recommend if you deal with that particular channel, deal with it knowing that some of the regulars in there are two-faced.

You all may be fine with that, but I am not fine with that, I personally do not have the time nor patience for those types of things and quite frankly I do not have to tolerate it when I can deal with far better circumstances, more appreciative environments in other locations, and that is where I am getting at. So I personally do not have to accept the #snkplaymore channel, especially when I can go to better places where I do not have to deal with two faced people that enjoy high school drama, sorry not my thing, my time is better spent elsewhere where productive things are taking place.

[krazykone123]

Okay if you guys want I will post why I do not personally like the #snkplaymore channel. I am respectfully going to post this, but many of the people in there do not really contribute positively to the scene.

As long as they're willing to play KOF competitively (by my standards) they're contributing to the scene imo.

I speak of these people as The Leech Gang, and basically what it is is anyone that is trying to do something positive they enjoy degrading or putting them down. One of them in particular demonstrated this trait when they posted up on a video that someone should "Just quit playing the game." This is the attitude of The Leech Gang, always looking to cast a stone at someone, but not willing to look in the mirror!

But you can find dudes like that everywhere! (on the internet), it's best you just ignore them/pay them no mind.

They enjoy on that channel degrading people behind their backs, discouraging uploading videos, discouraging playing offline, and I could go on and on and on. I have more than enough proof from countless people (That I will choose to keep confidential) that I have seen this over and over and over, not just with how much my name is brought up in their chats behind my back, but also how others are seeing the same type of stuff I see over and over and over again, and it is not productive to the scene at all, they enjoy doing this. So keep in mind people, you will rarely see this while you are on, but when you leave they are talking behind your back.

They said your name, so what? honestly DG you're letting all this internet trolling get to you. For all the work you put in I'll never understand why you stop just to try and put some internet dope boy IRC *****s in their place, it's a huge waste of time and doesn't reflect well on you or anyone else in the rest of the scene. If they want to gossip about you like a bunch teenage girls on their cellphones let them, it doesn't matter. Be the bigger man do what you have to do opinions from the peanut gallery or not.

With that said I just want to make things clear DG that I was on the #snkp IRC for about a year and a half, and to be honest they didn't make fun of you as much as you make it seem. Most of the time it was harmless jokes from time to time while a few others were out right criticisms, however those criticisms usually came up only when you (or Digi) did/said something stupid and it was just 4 maybe 5 people out of what? 30+ people idling so it wasn't like the whole channel was out to get you. Hope you aren't about to fly off the handle and act like you never did anything dumb or just because you're doing something for the community you're annulled of any kind of negative feedback. Mistakes happen and people do stupid things, it's just that some people are more assertive at pointing them out the second you screw up. You can call it jealousy but it's whatever.

they are holding the SNK community back.

And you're holding yourself back by wasting your time with them, by the way you might wanna stop with this "Look at me, look at what I'm doing for the community, I'm helping!" nonsense that you tend to bring up in arguments to make everyone else seem like the bad guy, un-warranted self-importance is the quickest way to get trolls and other haters on your back. Take it from me, I don't hop up and down when I do write-ups for the dc wiki, I don't ask for praise nor do I expect it, yeah it's nice to get a "Good job KK123!" every once in awhile but if anything I'm trying to use my work to motivate other people to do it too.

What I'm trying to say it that you have to humble man, shoving your work in peoples face is more likely to net you more haters than admirers. If you just chill and do what you want to do (in a more passive way) everything will fall into place a lot easier.

When you degrade people constantly that are uploading videos it discourages people from wanting to upload videos, and then ontop of that you challenge these people to come out and play and they refuse, this laziness in turn permeates throughout the community.

Well I wouldn't expect people to rate my shitty KOF videos 5 stars just because I uploaded them lol, btw refusing to accept a $250-500+ and other outrageous amounts for money match challenges ain't lazy man, most KOF peeps in the U.S scene can barely travel to tournaments so you should already know we ain't got money like that. Desmond's boy Dirtywerk got that paper tho'.

Like The Judge says in his letter, you have those that want to travel and those do not.

The Judge says a lot of things.

People unknowingly place the Japanese on a tier because they travel and are willing to get stronger, while you now have "Generation G" (G for GGPO), this new wave of online players that do not travel and do not see a need to travel.

Well you can't say that everyone that uses GGPO to play KOF online doesn't want to go to tournaments (some of them do), as much as I want to go to tournaments I (like a lot of other people in the scene) need to get our shit together first, for me if I can't make it to PowerUp 2011 then I'll try to make to EVO instead.

This goes against everything that tournaments stand for, for these people would have very little to talk about if no one travelled to tournaments.

Good for them, chalk it up to opinions then move along sir.

So think about that, when they are helping you learn things, behind your back they are degrading you... So again, I recommend if you deal with that particular channel, deal with it knowing that some of the regulars in there are two-faced.

You'll also meet a lot of two faced people in real life too, that's just the way it is, it's best you not dwell on their actions and move along. If you don't like them don't associate with them simple as that, but don't get caught being a hypocrite and end up doing the some of the same ish you accuse them of doing because it will come back and bite you in the ass pretty hard.

You all may be fine with that, but I am not fine with that, I personally do not have the time nor patience for those types of things and quite frankly I do not have to tolerate it when I can deal with far better circumstances, more appreciative environments in other locations, and that is where I am getting at. So I personally do not have to accept the #snkplaymore channel, especially when I can go to better places where I do not have to deal with two faced people that enjoy high school drama, sorry not my thing, my time is better spent elsewhere where productive things are taking place.

Then it's best that you not flip out every time someone brings up your name in an argument home boy, if you wanna leave that high school drama behind you then you best learn when to just let things go and move forward. This is just my opinion DG, you can ruminate on it, dismiss it, rip it apart, etc. 

[Dark Geese]

I understand what you are saying, my thing is all about mutual respect. People can always have opinions, people are free to think what they want about me etc, but I feel things should be handled the way they are handled here, with more tact and respect. I simply don't have the time nor the patience for stuff otherwise.

In regards to a certain player, I am not going to talk about him anymore, as I have said on my videos, it is a dead topic and furthermore that particular person does not exist to me. That person may have paper, but as I have said specifically, we have more "paper" than he does, no questions about that.. with all due respect we have gone down that path before, so at this point that is basically a dead topic.

In regards to GGPO/online, I know not everyone can travel, those are not the people I am talking about. I am talking about the people that choose NOT to travel because they do not see how that can benefit them at all, and think they can acquire all the skills they need to be at a competitive level in KOF online.

Also refusing $250-$500 money matches to me is lazy, I simply do not understand why someone would expect me to waste my time and play for anything less than what I am going to spend simply paying my way to get to a location. It may seem like a lot of money to people, but they seriously cannot expect me to even remotely think about me paying for all of that just to go play them for a little to nothing.

I simply refuse to do that, that would be foolish on my part, I have done that for 5 years basically flying around the USA for 5-7 man tournaments, I am not going to do that anymore that ship has sailed.

What you have to understand about me arguing with them is it is strategic, do you see me at SRK arguing with them now? No you do not.

My entire purpose for going there was per Lecter's suggestion to go and hype up The KOF Cup 2011, so I went there knowing what I would have to deal with to do that, and now they could be saying anything under the sun and I simply do not care nor do I pay it any mind.

I only truly go to SRK when I need to go advertise and hype up a tournament. The unfortunate reality is that I have to hype up these tournaments because posting them simply in the Tournament and Events section etc is barely gonna get the amount of hype the tournament needs because it is not Street Fighter in the USA, so I have to take on the role of Don King, and hype the tournament up. If that means I have to argue a little bit with people that normally I do not pay any mind, then that is what I have to do. But again, you do not see me talking to them now, and I won't be back there conversing with them stirring things up again until next month, with the sole purpose of hyping up the tournament. I will again state that clearly at the beginning, that I will only be there to hype up the tournament which will be in March. I will probably only be there doing that for 1 day, then I will disappear again and just return to post the results from the tournament. I am trying to raise global awareness of the event, thus I have to hit up whatever popular sites are and raise awareness of the event.

In regards to shoving my stuff in peoples face, well only time I would do that is when I see people I feel that haven't really done ANYTHING going on a tirade disrespecting other players (primary example being when a particular person said a new player should "Quit playing the game"), it is then I put many of these players in their place because I do not feel again they are in any situation whatsoever to be doing such things, and even I, who has a lot more of experience and as I said on the podcast, do not do such things at all.

So if they wanna hate me for that so be it, I will be hated...I am perfectly fine with that.

I hope you understand what I am saying, I am just telling people that there are certain people on #snkplaymore that they have to know are two faced, if they are fine with that that's fine.

I personally cut my dealings with two-faced people both online and in real life.

So in synopsis, if I am not hyping up a tournament, I don't pay any of them any mind whatsover.

You'll be hard pressed to ever even see me in the channel from this point forward, and if for any reason I am there, it will be like SRK, just to raise awareness and promote, otherwise I have no reason to be at either SRK or #snkplaymore whatsoever, I feel my time is better served elsewhere.

I have done my part, I have called them out to a challenge, they may view it unreasonable but so is dishing out that type of money only to make back dimes and nickels basically. It has to be a win-win situation for us both, not just for one person, and that is how I operate now, which is not how I use to operate in the past.

So with that being said I move on to bigger things and let them talk, I will only see it and it will be relevant only when I return to SRK in February to hype up The KOF Cup, otherwise to me it does not mean anything...

But with that said watch how I return to SRK in February, watch how I deal with them this time, I  am probably only going to make one post then be gone, I would prefer not to engage with them at all, but I have to walk the fine line between hyping things up, and at the same time not constantly dealing with them..

-DG

[sibarraz]

to be fair with the travelling comparission, you can't compare travelling within japan than travelling in the USA, those are 2 different realities, from the size of the country to the transport

[Dark Geese]

to be fair with the travelling comparission, you can't compare travelling within japan than travelling in the USA, those are 2 different realities, from the size of the country to the transport

That is true, but bottom line is still the same as I told people on the podcast last night, if you want to compete with the top players in your region/country/whatever game you play, bottom line is you are going to have to travel (and I mean leaving the country). The top players are travelling, so to compete with them you are going to have to at the least do what they are doing. To beat all of them consistently you are going to have to do what they are doing and more, so in others words again I tell people it's not easy, sacrifices have to be made, choices have to be made, it's not easy being a top player, but that's why they are Top Players, they make those sacrifices that other players do not make, they go the extra miles (lol literally) that the normal person does not take, all of this adds up to a top player.

If you think like an average player and do the things that an average player does- You will be an Average player.
If you think like a Top Player and do the things that a Top player does- You will eventually become a Top player.

There is a saying, Shoot for the stars, and though you may not reach the stars, you will be amongst the clouds.

[sibarraz]

Well, that's true too

The situation with KOF is hard in the USA, more than anything on how popular is the game in the country to really move an scene

For example in South America, you had lots of places to play KOF in lots of countries, in Santiago you can had an amazing level without travelling more than 1 hour at worse, you can find lots of arcades or even organice your own tournaments, and isn't that hard to found even guys who don't play KOF seriously anymore, but at least played it. Mexico happens sometimes slightly similar but in an even bigger scale

In the USA the game is so niche that is really hard to create an scene and motivate people to start spending good money for a game that doesn't seem to move that much, and that hardly could attract new players that will take it seriously only travelling and playing, you still need the support that the company gave you with a game that you can really found anywhere, if not for an arcade, for the game being decently popular to spread it and be motivated to find people to play it. SNK pretty much died with the PS2 in USA, their stupid politics where an impediment to release some great games like XI at the right time, and there you're only option to make something popular are consoles, in japan, asia, center or south america you still had lots of cheap arcades with some copy of any KOF from the neo geo

At least I think that the problem to create an better kof scene is more from the proper games (distribution more than anything, I'm not talking about the quality of those, I still think that beside those random idiots who don't know WTF are they talking about the serious fighting game fans or even some casuals still respect KOF) than the players, even though they are not helping either

At this point, I think that USA players must be waiting or hoping to see KOF XIII suceed the enough to start motivating people, at this rate it will be hard to expect someone to move if there is not a real motivation, and to a lesser extent I understand them, but like I said in another thread, wasting their time talking about how much SF IV sucks, and fighting within the proper members there will never achieve anything

[Dark Geese]

I agree with what you say completely, SNKp does have its share of problems in regards to this, but also something to take into consideration, for those people that are waiting on KOF13, they have to from a global perspective realize that in order to better themselves in 13 they need to be playing the older games, or if not then they will find a very steep learning curve in 13 with everything they have to learn from the beginning; whereas the seasoned veteran will be able to jump right into the game based on knowing the older ones. I get a lot of people talking to me now about holding a Regional Qualifier for my proposed World KOF Cup in the USA, and unfortunately the reality is that the USA has a steep hill to climb before even being mentioned in the top 5 countries in this particular Region of the Western Hemisphere in regards to having a Qualifier. People cannot just rely on Arcade Infinity/California and people like me to carry the entire USA scene, there has to be similar skill levels across the entire country to warrant having a Regional Qualifier!

If I were to do a Regional Qualifier for multiple KOFs in the USA, I would take a lot of heat from other countries because of the low level of play being seen, my rationale would be deservingly questioned when there are many other regions where the level of play overall would be much higher. People need to see the World KOF Cup as a serious event, thus there needs to be serious level of play and attendance, thus all of this is taken into account as to why the USA at this point would not be a good location for the Regional Qualifier. Hopefully what I am saying will MOTIVATE players to get better and take things more seriously, but until that happens and the level of play is at the least comparable to AI's across the board then it is hard for me to imagine having a Regional Qualifier for The World KOF Cup in the USA.

The USA has to at least IMHO show skill level comparable across the board to those of those other regions like Central and South America, Mexico, Asia, Middle East before I feel they would warrant having a Regional Qualifier for the World KOF Cup.

The reality is that is not going to happen overnight, the only way that is going to happen is if what you said happens in regards to motivation, AND more people start travelling outside of the USA, because people need to know why these other countries are chosen over the USA for a Regional Qualifier firsthand, and see what has to happen before the USA is even in the discussion for holding a Qualifier.

Also about SF4, I tell people do not talk about things they know very little about. I say this to SF players talking about KOF as well, just state briefly why you do not like the game, but do not go on a tirade about it if you are not well versed in the game. So yes degrading SF4 does no good to bringing more people into the  USA KOF community.

[sibarraz]

Yep that's true, like I said, it's a very complex situation that involves lots of things, I share your opinion that they need to learn older kof's to get better in XIII if they don't want to be naked when the game gets a release (hell, here in Chile I got raped in XIII the second day that the game was put in the cabinet, and by guys who had been playing 2002 maybe since his release date

Lol, they already know how to use Raiden : (

[desmond_kof]

You fellas think that the dreamcancel chat room is really needed especially for players that don't want to go to #snkplaymore? If people really think so, then why is the chat room channel always empty?

[sibarraz]

I honestly don't know that here exists a chat xD