SoCal KoF

[Ash]

Hey Reynald and John, since you guys use Takuma, check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEmJ-VWPDM4&t=1m13s

[ESB Cancel]

GGS, to everyone I played at Alex's Arcade tonight (even though I was basically "free" the whole day and my skill level was not on par with everyone else's).  I apologize that I didn't play much more, later into the night. It was great to observe high level play. Not only that, but it was also nice seeing members of this forum in person and getting to know them better. Hopefully we can do it again next Thursday. GGS!  

[Kane317]

Well if you figure the combo is dropped 70-80% of the time, you can say the same thing about survival for a comeback, except with more health.

Yeah but when completed, one you die after it's done, but one you have a chance.  I guess we agree to disagree so it's just a preference kinda thing.

There are two other points in the combo which require you to do walking b~f+C

I guess everyone finds different things challenging like I find DL's rekkas lol.  It's just practice, I got that walking Ventose in one session of training mode.

Other than this, learning to do most of the cancels for Ash takes about 3 weeks time, whereas most combos take a day or two max.

3 weeks hmm...I hope I don't take that long to learn those cancels.

Some of the stuff you listed would apply to any juggle combo (like leaving too much gap would make the next hit whiff) so I dunno about those arguments.  

After tonight and watching the combo John attempts, the aforementioned one earlier seems easier but of course I don't know.  For the record, I never seen John miss so much period--Oscar joked like he's doing it on purpose or something haha.  When I just play him 1 on 1, he gets it off on me a lot more than tonight so I dunno--maybe we all can't count and maybe we're all lying about our stats, it's all perspective right?

Ultimately, I'm just going to have to return to this topic when I use him myself and I'm ok with being wrong as I have been in the past. =)

---

GGS, to everyone I played at Alex's Arcade tonight (even though I was basically "free" the whole day and my skill level was not on par with everyone else's).  I apologize that I didn't play much more, later into the night. It was great to observe high level play. Not only that, but it was also nice seeing members of this forum in person and getting to know them better. Hopefully we can do it again next Thursday. GGS!  

Hang in there Sam, the key really is to play more as nothing really replaces experience, don't get discouraged and like Ricardo and Abe, you'll be able to keep up sooner or later.

[Mr.KOF]

GG's last night. I think i've found a way to an alternate combo making a fourth possible stun combo with only 2 meters and 60 drive. I'll find out later today 
You've got to understand i never drop combos....It's the Reset i go for hehehe. I would say it would take three weeks to performing all the combos to its fullest potential.

@ ESB : Don't worry, just have fun and remember losing is a learning process

@ Oscar: Yeah the video may describe how Reynald and I look when getting ready for big
HD combos. You missed out at night because I seriously thought the Autistic kid was playing 13 due to the fact Reynald was popping and making some noise. Heck, Even CMD Duc was jumping up and down trying to cause an earthquake when i was doing the Combo  LOL

@ Yuhang : Liked how you felt accomplished landing the duolon EX air strike on Reynald! Just remember you can't poke someone from your wake up =P

@Abe: Remember to e fully energized or drink your juice b4 playing =P

@Duc: I suggest you ask me a history question other than a geographical one. I can play Jeopardy and KOF 13 at the same time woot woot!

@Reynald: Even with the long line...Raiden *face palm* JK pretty fun matches still.

[THE ANSWER]

LOL at autistic Reynald!!!

[Ash]

Well if you figure the combo is dropped 70-80% of the time, you can say the same thing about survival for a comeback, except with more health.

Yeah but when completed, one you die after it's done, but one you have a chance.  I guess we agree to disagree so it's just a preference kinda thing.

There are two other points in the combo which require you to do walking b~f+C

I guess everyone finds different things challenging like I find DL's rekkas lol.  It's just practice, I got that walking Ventose in one session of training mode.

Other than this, learning to do most of the cancels for Ash takes about 3 weeks time, whereas most combos take a day or two max.

3 weeks hmm...I hope I don't take that long to learn those cancels.

Some of the stuff you listed would apply to any juggle combo (like leaving too much gap would make the next hit whiff) so I dunno about those arguments.  

After tonight and watching the combo John attempts, the aforementioned one earlier seems easier but of course I don't know.  For the record, I never seen John miss so much period--Oscar joked like he's doing it on purpose or something haha.  When I just play him 1 on 1, he gets it off on me a lot more than tonight so I dunno--maybe we all can't count and maybe we're all lying about our stats, it's all perspective right?

Ultimately, I'm just going to have to return to this topic when I use him myself and I'm ok with being wrong as I have been in the past. =)

---

GGS, to everyone I played at Alex's Arcade tonight (even though I was basically "free" the whole day and my skill level was not on par with everyone else's).  I apologize that I didn't play much more, later into the night. It was great to observe high level play. Not only that, but it was also nice seeing members of this forum in person and getting to know them better. Hopefully we can do it again next Thursday. GGS!  

Hang in there Sam, the key really is to play more as nothing really replaces experience, don't get discouraged and like Ricardo and Abe, you'll be able to keep up sooner or later.

In our current state if we can't do HD combos consistently (90%+) in real matches, we'll be unable to do that Ash combo even with a lot practice (this includes me).

Also 3 weeks I considered is fast learning, unless of course it's on console. It would take even longer if there's no one to point out how to do certain parts of it, but only having seen the combo and have the combo in writing.

Which combo juggles can you give as an example that has the strictness or 1 or 2 frames, non-canceled that require a more difficult motion besides just doing motion for the move?

Actually I can count just fine. I count the number of times he drops his combo every time I go there. Yesterday was a larger amount than I normal. I think I asked Abe and he said he didn't see it happen the whole night.

Walking b~f+C is easy and anyone can do it by itself. I think I've already told you before it's completely different trying to do it in a combo because it because significantly harder. Especially in the part of the combo I described previously.

I'm fairly certain you'll come back and say it's a lot harder than you thought.

[Kane317]

@ Yuhang : Liked how you felt accomplished landing the duolon EX air strike on Reynald! Just remember you can't poke someone from your wake up =P

I dunno if you know the back story behind it.  For some reason, only against Reynald, whenever I connect a j.CD my Ex air.f+AC misses.  He was actually the one that pointed out to me that he's only see it miss against him and he laughed about it.  Since then, it's bugged me every time it misses (and I think it happened once more or even twice after that too--only against him).

---

In our current state if we can't do HD combos consistently (90%+) in real matches, we'll be unable to do that Ash combo even with a lot practice (this includes me).

Also 3 weeks I considered is fast learning, unless of course it's on console. It would take even longer if there's no one to point out how to do certain parts of it, but only having seen the combo and have the combo in writing.

I suppose it depends on how much you play in 3 weeks.  John's 3 weeks of gameplay is a lot different from mine or Abe's.  If I had the machine to myself, I aim to learn it in 4 hours tops, and I'm overshooting it.

Which combo juggles can you give as an example that has the strictness or 1 or 2 frames, non-canceled that require a more difficult motion besides just doing motion for the move?

1 or 2 frames or .2 or .4 milliseconds is relatively the same in context.  You snooze you lose.  I'm assuming it's not like Shen's XII 1-frame cancels, but most characters if you pause/delay for more time than you should, you'll miss. I had to re-read what you said a couple of times but I'm assuming you're referring to the walk fireball, so if you're not then forgive me: All you have to do is to reprogram your timing to so that c.b~f+C, you press the C slightly later, this is the new "motion" for the move.  Then you factor in the tight window so you just have to time it earlier.  

Actually I can count just fine. I count the number of times he drops his combo every time I go there. Yesterday was a larger amount than I normal. I think I asked Abe and he said he didn't see it happen the whole night.

What we're getting at is that you're basically saying we can't count, especially when we're asking for the benefit of the doubt since we get hit by it a lot when you're not there.  Insult our intelligence all you want, we can only ask you to believe that we do get hit by it often enough to make a fuss about it.

Walking b~f+C is easy and anyone can do it by itself. I think I've already told you before it's completely different trying to do it in a combo because it because significantly harder. Especially in the part of the combo I described previously.

I do remember our conversation, and I cannot add any input until I attempt it in a combo so we'll revisit this point at a later date.  All I can attest to is the execution difficulty outside of a combo for now.

I'm fairly certain you'll come back and say it's a lot harder than you thought.

I might just do so, but I suppose we're arguing the wrong points since the underlying question really is:  Should they remove the stun combo for Takuma, Ash, Kula or is it just too difficult and too impractical to do in a real game and they should just leave it in.

Let's examine some old infinites like Kim's corner air stomp combo or Yamazaki's sandkick infinite.  Let's say we feel that it's super hard and we really don't care about getting hit by it since it's so impractical.  Let's say John practices and he gets it off more than 50% of the time on several ppl.  The million dollar question is: At one point is enough is enough?  How many times do you have to get hit by something "broken", for a lack of a better term, before they should change it?

I don't have problems with 100% combos, I think it's give and take.  If you feel like saving up all round long for a HD 4-5stock 100% combo, then the more power to you.  Chances are, you're not going to use much meter the other 3-4 rounds if you want to go that route.  With the stun combos of course, you can have lower requirements like 2 drives 30% stock for Takuma, or 60%drive 2 stocks for Ash.  Which means that the chances of them pulling it off more than one time in a match is significantly higher than trying to save up for 4-5 stocks plus HD.   Not to mention that you're gaining stock while doing the combos (Takuma's case being the most ridiculous).

[Ash]

First of all I am not insulting the intelligence or you other others by saying you can't count. What I am saying here is that you guys do not play Ash, therefore lack the character knowledge of knowing when he does try for it and messes it up. Simply put I'm telling you guys that if you haven't tried it, you shouldn't say it's as hard as I think it is. If you tell me about a character you play and I don't how difficult a combo is, I will take your word for it.

In regards to you and RJ getting hit by it a lot, I never said you guys didn't. I said he gets it off 20-30% of the time and that does not equate to you two getting hit by it a lot. What I did mean is that overall against all opponents, he'll get the combo off that often. It could be that when it did happen, he was in practice mode before playing you two, or just had better than normal execution.

Ok well let's just ignore the fact that it's a stun combo and take it as a 100% combo instead. It requires 2 meter and 60% drive gauge, as opposed to other characters who need 4 meter and 100% drive gauge. Yes there's an advantage, of 2 meter and 40% drive, but it does still require some saving and use of meter. As for the point about them gaining meter while doing the combo, we'll attribute that to saying that the requirements of the 100% combo is lower.

So we should compare the difference of damage of what Ash can do with 2 meter and 60% drive gauge versus other characters what damage other characters can do with the same resource. I think most characters can output about 50-60% damage with that, with a difference of an additional 40-50% Ash can do.

So is 40-50% damage justify the difficulty? That's debatable depending on how difficult a person thinks it is. Many games have BnB mid damage combos and higher damaging combos which scales with difficulty to do so - that's normal. I think in this case it's borderline since I do play Ash and know the difficult of not just being able to do it, but doing it in a real match.

You guys do go to the arcade more often now since it's down in OC now. So there's easy access to try it out. I would go as far as making a wager of $50 to anyone besides John (maybe Reynald) wouldn't be able to do the first 10 inputs of the combo 7/10 times in practice mode (not against a backward opponent) within the next month or two. The whole combo has 30+ inputs, but for this I'd only require the first 10 hits which is up to ABCD.

Edit: Do you remember when we saw the Kim corner step infinite? It looked easy, but when we tried it, it was insanely hard. Ash's combo isn't at that difficulty, but it is indeed a lot harder than it looks.

[Giby]

So are any of you guys still coming up to FFA tonight? I never heard back from Oscar last night.

[THE ANSWER]

I think Johns have been dropping the combo on purpose or gets nervous when Duc is there cause like I said I've played with him a lot last week and he was getting the combos 90% of the time.

I agree with Yuhang that Ash and Takuma shit is bullshit and stupid. The takuma shit is so easy even Ricardo who goes once a week can do the full stun combo.

CMD Duc, would you say that the Ash combo is as hard as Whips 02 corner combo (the long one) or 02 Angels infinite?

[Ash]

I think Johns have been dropping the combo on purpose or gets nervous when Duc is there cause like I said I've played with him a lot last week and he was getting the combos 90% of the time.

I agree with Yuhang that Ash and Takuma shit is bullshit and stupid. The takuma shit is so easy even Ricardo who goes once a week can do the full stun combo.

CMD Duc, would you say that the Ash combo is as hard as Whips 02 corner combo (the long one) or 02 Angels infinite?

Ricardo told me he goes 3 times a week. He can do the Takuma combo which is easier than Ash's and require less meter, but messes up somewhat often. And yeah Takuma's combo is a bit much and should be toned down.

For the combos in 2k2, I wouldn't be able to say since I haven't tried those. Those combos though involve quicker inputs, so it's a bit different. I would say that if someone can do those combos, they can do Ash's with practice of course. Although we all may be able to do difficult combos, it's another thing to get them down with consistency. I'm sure we all can do Ash's combo with enough practice, but not with high consistency.

[Kane317]

First of all I am not insulting the intelligence or you other others by saying you can't count. What I am saying here is that you guys do not play Ash, therefore lack the character knowledge of knowing when he does try for it and messes it up. Simply put I'm telling you guys that if you haven't tried it, you shouldn't say it's as hard as I think it is. If you tell me about a character you play and I don't how difficult a combo is, I will take your word for it.

Yes and no.  There are combos that I found real hard, and then we other ppl tried it they found it easy.  For the most part I do have a better understanding of Chin's combo and which ones I find hard, but it doesn't means everyone finds it hard too.  Having said that, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you it's a challenging combo, but I did want to make that clarification.

I also do know how many times he's successfully stunned me, and again, it's enough make me feel it's worth engaging in this long civilized (thank you) debate we've been having--apparently others feel the same way I do too.  I pointed out this in my last post, ("Just how many times do you have to get hit by something "overpowered/broken", no matter difficult, before it's necessary to change it?"  If you get hit by it enough it's clearly feasible in a real match, and hence practical enough for an debate IMO.)

In regards to you and RJ getting hit by it a lot, I never said you guys didn't. I said he gets it off 20-30% of the time and that does not equate to you two getting hit by it a lot. What I did mean is that overall against all opponents, he'll get the combo off that often. It could be that when it did happen, he was in practice mode before playing you two, or just had better than normal execution.

Once again, see the last post.   We get hit by it enough to feel that this is necessary to discuss this.

Ok well let's just ignore the fact that it's a stun combo and take it as a 100% combo instead. It requires 2 meter and 60% drive gauge, as opposed to other characters who need 4 meter and 100% drive gauge. Yes there's an advantage, of 2 meter and 40% drive, but it does still require some saving and use of meter. As for the point about them gaining meter while doing the combo, we'll attribute that to saying that the requirements of the 100% combo is lower.

So we should compare the difference of damage of what Ash can do with 2 meter and 60% drive gauge versus other characters what damage other characters can do with the same resource. I think most characters can output about 50-60% damage with that, with a difference of an additional 40-50% Ash can do.

So is 40-50% damage justify the difficulty? That's debatable depending on how difficult a person thinks it is. Many games have BnB mid damage combos and higher damaging combos which scales with difficulty to do so - that's normal. I think in this case it's borderline since I do play Ash and know the difficult of not just being able to do it, but doing it in a real match.

I think, that's just it, the lower starting point is a HUGE difference.  The main difference is it's almost impossible, on a normal timer, to build 4/5 stocks + 100% drive in the first round (with the majority of the characters requiring 5 stocks+HD) whereas it's definitely plausible to build 2 meters 60% drive the first round.  The starting points are hugely different to the point where an aggressive player who builds up meter more, could essentially do two stun combos on players 1 and 3 of an opponent in an extreme case, particularly Takuma.  Most of the 4/5stock full HD combos are seen on the 5th round more times than not; the stun combos, however, can be execute at a much earlier point in a match.

Remember the difference between a 99% combo and an 100% combo is not just 1%.  A 100% combo leaves NO chance for a combo; a 99% combo could leave the opponent with a chance to comeback no matter how slim.  I think if someone wants to save up 5 rounds just to get a 5 stock +HD 100% off of someone, it's justified coz they have to sacrifice a lot more during the other 4.  The stun combo requires a lot less sacrifice for the same amount of damage (and once again a positive gain in Takuma's case), the principle of the stun combo is in itself, ridiculous.  Make them require 5 stock+HD, or 4 stock +HD to stun someone and it's still unfair since you build meter during the combo.  2 stocks and some drive is a little over-doing it if you ask my humble opinion.

You guys do go to the arcade more often now since it's down in OC now. So there's easy access to try it out. I would go as far as making a wager of $50 to anyone besides John (maybe Reynald) wouldn't be able to do the first 10 inputs of the combo 7/10 times in practice mode (not against a backward opponent) within the next month or two. The whole combo has 30+ inputs, but for this I'd only require the first 10 hits which is up to ABCD.

Edit: Do you remember when we saw the Kim corner step infinite? It looked easy, but when we tried it, it was insanely hard. Ash's combo isn't at that difficulty, but it is indeed a lot harder than it looks.

I thought we're not arguing difficulty anymore, I already said I can't debate that till try it myself.  The real debate is whether or not it should still be there in the first place.

As for living closer is really moot if my availability isn't as flexible as yours as other people.  

Let's say you're right, and it's deathly impossible to do.  Yet I've gotten hit by it, say 10 times in the last few weeks.  It still doesn't change the fact that it's a 100% combo that requires 2 stocks and 60% drive to start (or 2 drives but 30% stock for Takauma).   Since you're gaining meter back Takuma's really a negative 1 stock 2 drive combo (I don't remember how much drive he gains back).  That's clearly an unfair advantage that he has.

With the same token Ash's stun combo that I listed (I'm unfamiliar with the variation John and you use) takes 60% drive and 2 stock; the whole combo requires 5 stocks, but you gain 3 stocks back.

To put thing is perspective, let's say I have a special like O.Shermie's HSDM lightning, that requires 2 stocks and 60% drive to do, and let's say we use your 30% success rate, if it did 100% damage if it connects, even with a 30% success rate, would it be fair?  Remember, 2 stocks and 60% drive requirement only.

[Ash]

Ok, so basically the summary of the issue is this:

1 - 100% combo is ok if using saving up 4-5 power meter and 100% drive if difficulty is low/medium.
2 - 100% combo is not ok if saving up 2 power meter and 60% drive if difficulty is high.

We both agree on 1, but not 2 for various reasons. I can leave the issue at rest if this is the case.

About the Orochi Shermie thing that would actually be very funny and wouldn't mind if it happened on a first or second character. On the 3rd character, I'd probably have to start praying. But seriously, that involves just activating move, where as a long difficult combo is the enjoyment of getting everything executed correctly and benefiting from large amounts of practice.

[THE ANSWER]

One thing I've learned is it doesn't matter how difficult a combo is but if it's worth it a relatively usable in a match people will master it and abuse it. I remember the first time I saw Angeles infinite in Mexico and and people were saying yeah it's good but it's not practical cause its too difficult fast forward 2-3 years later every top player in Mexico was doing it, now days it's a minimum requirement if you wanna use Angel in Mexico. Just look at what happened to Hummer he went to Mexico with he's semi-decent Angel and not able to do the infinite at least 70% of the time and he got his ass handed to him.

In 13 acquiring 2 meters and 1 drive in round is not hard specially if his in 2nd position thus giving Ash a really good chance to do this ridiculous combo. 

[Ash]

One thing I've learned is it doesn't matter how difficult a combo is but if it's worth it a relatively usable in a match people will master it and abuse it. I remember the first time I saw Angeles infinite in Mexico and and people were saying yeah it's good but it's not practical cause its too difficult fast forward 2-3 years later every top player in Mexico was doing it, now days it's a minimum requirement if you wanna use Angel in Mexico. Just look at what happened to Hummer he went to Mexico with he's semi-decent Angel and not able to do the infinite at least 70% of the time and he got his ass handed to him.

In 13 acquiring 2 meters and 1 drive in round is not hard specially if his in 2nd position thus giving Ash a really good chance to do this ridiculous combo.  

Actually 2k2 is a different game where there were not many mid/easy 100% combos. KOF XIII has quite a bit of them if you have the meter for it. Angel doesn't not require any meter to do that infinite (if she messes up, she can just try again immediately). Ash does require some meter, so he can't just do it anytime but but with lesser requirements than other 100%s in XIII. At most you'll only see Ash do it once per match. Since there are plenty of 100% combos in XIII, see what I wrote in the above post. Doing 100% damage in a combo itself is not ridiculous, it's whether or not you agree on #2.