Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => General Discussion => Topic started by: LouisCipher on December 28, 2011, 03:59:52 AM
-
Maybe we can sticky this? Just a suggestion. I just hope this doesn't become a 'I hate this matchup and so and so character should be buffed to counter so and so' because threads like that tend to snowball into something else.
So what characters do you guys think require buffs and nerfs?
I've heard a few rumblings that Billy may be broken but I'm going to have to disagree. I think his pokes can be a problem for some of the cast, but he often can't link into something big (Hyper Drive or Upkicks corner combo) unless he's almost right next to you. His corner combos are good but require at least 3-4 bars (without going into Hyper Drive) to do about 600-700 damage, and those combos are hard to do so it's not like Joey from down the street can come over and pick him and wreck shit. Him doing about 400-500 damage with 2 bars and 1-2 DC is about on par with most of the cast.
So I think that's the elephant in the room. Feel free to disagree though.
Terry. He's good, but not good enough. Only changes I would suggest: Regular Power Gyser comes out faster, for an AA super it's too slow for it's own good. Have his Neomax do full damage in corner. And I think he should be able to link Crack Shoot and Burn Knuckle off of Toward A.
Ryo. Just more damage. Very unlikely that SNKP would go to the trouble of animating his jumping karate chop -which is something he really needs - but to make up for that I would suggest a slight damage boost. His use of Parries makes him radically unique like Clark in that he has a mechanic that no other character has. But there's not much he can do without tapping into EX Super. Otherwise he'll be doing 200 damage on average, not much of a threat. Also, if they could adjust the input for his Zanretsuken, I don't know if it's just me but I can rarely get that move out and instead I often get his projectile super out.
I can't think of any terribly broken characters and I don't main Leona so I can't give much input for her. She seems to occupy a niche and does okay.
-
I think they should revert her nerfs while keeping her buffs don't think she needed them nerfs she got in console <.<
-
Nice idea for a thread Louis.
Terry:
I'm thinking that he could use a bit more too. I like the buff ideas above. I wouldn't mind it if his crackshoot was more along the lines of MOTW where it's normally an overhead. Of course we'd have to slow it down a bit so that it wouldn't be ridiculous. And for an EX maybe have it bound the opponent. Feel like he needs something more to help break down guard.
Ryo:
Have been wanting his raijinsetsu (jump chop) ever since XII came out. I consider it a core Ryo special that plays a vital role - esp vs fb'ers (also knocking the opponent down will give him more oki opps). His damage output I would argue is pretty decent, problem is he doesn't get enough opportunity and his mid-screen game sucks. Mid-screen, he's essentially got his fb and that's it - severely punishable at times as the opponent can expect it. Also, could use more range on his normal chop... <I think this stuff's within reason, don't have to give him his cmd throw he had in some early KOF's that would make him too much like Robert. They did also ignore that fact that he had a cmd air crossup in the AoF series when they gave that to Robert as well. I would like air fireballs like in AoF, but now that clashes w/yuri..
Joe:
I really need him to have a normal with some range, every standing/crouching attack is really sorry in this sense. Wish he had his far D that he had before - I keep hitting D and whiffing from years of playing him previously. Faster jumps. <This is all I ask for Joe buffs, but wouldn't mind if he had more tools for carrying opponents to the corner.
-
Maxima - Bring back Bunker Buster.
/thread
-
Was Bunker Buster his Grab Super?
-
Nice Running, Bunker Buster fits in well with his current style and would be the obvious super to give him back.
It's that one where he blasts up off the screen juggling the opponent then blasts down onto them.
Really miss that move.
-
I'm on the bandwagon of the karate chop
-
ralf: he needs his uppercut back along with his ;dn ;up charge (i find that to be a better anti air option then his ;dn ;db ;bk ;c). to me his uppercut can give him more openings also it should be a hard knock down to set up his galacita phantom. and i think i may rather have his phantom as a special move then a super.
kim: i would say give back his rekkas but he is able to do much more with the tools he already has but if his rekkas came back then his EXs (all of them) would need to be nerfed
only namin a few
-
Kim I think should get Ryusei Raku back, and he should totally take from Jae Hoon's movelist like he did in MI2, and get his Shakka Shuu.
-
Yeah, I'd like to get Kim some additional moves too. Not saying he's too weak necessarily, but I think he becomes boring after a while. He could use some variety in his gameplay.
Rekkas - sure
Ryuseiraku - sure
Jae Hoon's counter move (Yakuka Kasane)?? would be great if he could counter then cancel into ff+A or something
How about that short ranged stomp attack (hakikyaku I think) that he had, which was useful for comboing into hookyaku. This would be a good one for drive cancelling and attacking low and comboing off of wk attacks (and would be safe without being too strong like hienzan). Heck could even allow it to ground punish as I think only two chrs in the game can do this (EX Iori/EX Kyo - sort of).
Anyways he's never been boring to play in other kofs, but to me his gameplay feels a little lackluster and one-dimensional in this one.
buffs wanted!
-
Terry: Now says ARE YOU OKAY!?!?!? at the start of his buster wolf.
-
Terry: Now says ARE YOU OKAY!?!?!? at the start of his buster wolf.
This, only buff needed in the game. Automatically becomes God Tier as the opponent is too moved to tears.
-
I agree that Terry's Crackshoot needs to be an overhead. The EX Crackshoot is pretty worthless. I don't know what you could do to make it worthwhile though.
For Kim, I'd love to see the return of his Down, Down, Kick special (forget the name of it) and it would give him some solid pressure. Otherwise I think his EX Hangetsuzan should go through projectiles. It would help him out quite a bit I think.
-
The thing is, Crack Shoot is only viable as it is now. If it's an OH, it might be too annoying. And if you slow it down, it's as worthless as it was in Garou and...well, pretty much every game before now, especially since people will see it coming all day and will just dodge it for free.
Want a Crack Shoot buff? Just make it so it connects with everyone crouching even if they're mashing c.B. That's it, nothing else.
-
I agree that Terry's Crackshoot needs to be an overhead. The EX Crackshoot is pretty worthless. I don't know what you could do to make it worthwhile though.
For Kim, I'd love to see the return of his Down, Down, Kick special (forget the name of it) and it would give him some solid pressure. Otherwise I think his EX Hangetsuzan should go through projectiles. It would help him out quite a bit I think.
EX Crackshoot could be a ground bound on hit.
Yeah that was what I was getting at above (although I described it sorrily), think the move is hakikyaku.
@saitsu, yeah being able to properly balance crackshoot would be tough with the route louis and I are talking about, but would be nice if that could be pulled off.
-
Yeah, it's like, I want Crack Shoot for pressure and guard breaking. If it whiffs, that don't help me. If it at least connects on everyone when they're in front of me, then that gets rid of one of its biggest weaknesses, because half the people you never have to worry about it not connecting on...have a 1 Frame CG to nail you with.
Also, at this point in the game, almost everyone is conditioned to block Terry high. Making Crack Shoot an OH won't do a damn thing. If EX Crack Shoot isn't worth crap as a quick OH that does a Hard KD, exactly how will anything less than that be any good?
-
Kim could also get a command special like Jae Hoon's hop back forward rising kick move, that thing is pretty sweet, on top of being kara cancelable.
-
Goro's NEOMAX should be OHKO
EX Roll should go full screen
EX Grab Super should have extra range, at least half screen
-
Andy
(it's not about him bieng weak or strong..it's about enjoying playing him..)
am okay with nerfing some of his moves (especially his n-max)
but SNK...plz give him new moves or give him back his air qcf+k and his unblockable (hcf+p)
it's just that i feel he is IMHO boring in 13 unlike 2002um
Ryo
;fd ;bk ;fd + ;a longer hit box + auto guard in the start up
the ;c ver can be used in air juggles also with longer hit box
...E.G
opp on wall..qcf+a.dp+c fbf+c
shen
qcb+c build meter in whiff .
give him back his qcf+BO (from kof 11).
-
most people dont even play terry correctly.
terry does not need buffs. and you shouldn't be using crackshoot outside of blockstun so that they CAN mash cr B anyways. and you don't even use crackshoot for the guard break because people can grab you after blocking it.
crackshoot certainly doesnt need to overhead.
the only possible buff terry needs is Are you okay?! back.
-
I want a KOF XI: Ultimate Match without the massive cuts in the movelist, but I'll keep it realistic:
Duo Lon
Either let him cancel into HD mode from his f+A (since it behaves like a command attack in most other respects) or give him another command attack to do so from.
-
I want a KOF XI: Ultimate Match without the massive cuts in the movelist, but I'll keep it realistic:
Duo Lon
Either let him cancel into HD mode from his f+A (since it behaves like a command attack in most other respects) or give him another command attack to do so from.
Doesn't need that at all, just confirm from St. C or Cr.bx2.
-
^^^
I am aware that that is the standard method, but I find it hard to get down consistently (and it also looks less fluid). Cancelling into HD from f+A would still require fairly close range, so it would not break him.
On that note, Robert doesn't need crouching B, crouching A, f+B, f+A (three days to hit confirm...), but it is still a nice "crutch" to have and one of the reasons I play him. Poor execution player here. ^_^
-
most people dont even play terry correctly.
terry does not need buffs. and you shouldn't be using crackshoot outside of blockstun so that they CAN mash cr B anyways. and you don't even use crackshoot for the guard break because people can grab you after blocking it.
crackshoot certainly doesnt need to overhead.
the only possible buff terry needs is Are you okay?! back.
Then how do you propose one use Terry? The only other thing he can do is walk in or short hop. Anyone smart knows Terry has bad matchups against half the cast, so just zone him, keep him out. K' just rapes Terry in that regard. Terry just cannot do anything in that matchup or the Ash matchup.
-
Also, if someone does D crackshoot and you blocked low and you tried to grab them, you'd probably beat them before they do anything that isn't a command throw.
-
D Crack Shoot isn't safe on block. If you're unsure if something is safe go into training and set the dummy to 1 guard jump. If you do a move, hold up after doing it. If you and the dummy jump at about the same time that means the move is 99% safe. If you jump a little after the dummy it means it's very unsafe. Online is another story.
B Crack Shoot is safe except against any character with a command grab.
-
D Crack Shoot isn't safe on block. If you're unsure if something is safe go into training and set the dummy to 1 guard jump. If you do a move, hold up after doing it. If you and the dummy jump at about the same time that means the move is 99% safe. If you jump a little after the dummy it means it's very unsafe. Online is another story.
B Crack Shoot is safe except against any character with a command grab.
'
Louis...you do realize that Reiki knows Terry's Frame Data VERY well do you not?
He said WHILE CROUCHING. D Crack Shoot against Crouchers is +1.
-
My bad.
-
It's no biggy. I'm not winning any tournaments so most people don't pay me any attention, but it's a frame trap for Terry most people don't think about. You shouldn't do it all the time like I do, mix it in so nobody gets used to it, but you can set up someone for a guard crush if they're too scared to do anything.
-
Probably too early to say but I'll throw it out there:
I think Hwai Jai might need nerfs. It's a little retarded how much damage he does off of two drive cancels in the corner. I'm not an execution god and I'm just now getting good at doing some of Billy's corner combos. But I can do some really easy corner combos with Hwai with just 2 drive cancels off of a jump in and that's easy 500 damage without even using meter.
Billy needs at least 2-3 bars to do that in the corner. Clark needs 2 bars and 1 DC to do 450-500 damage. If Hwai has 1-2 bars after that, we're talking 600-700 damage in the corner. Holy shit.
Now that I think I've inspired at least a few people to try out Hwai ;) I wonder what you guys think of nerfing the corner damage he can do? My problem is how much damage that does and how easy it is to do. Keep in perspective that I take about an hour a day to practice, and yesterday I tried getting a little serious with Hwai. And tonight I messed around again and in under 5 minutes I can pull off that kinda' damage. Put a character like that with easy damage like that and I will bet my right nut that there's going to be a lot of Hwai's at Evo.
-
Louis...you're pretty much reiterating what everyone's known for a while, no offense. Yeah, he has major damage, and he's decently safe, and all of that. It's kind of like that elephant in the room. We know he has all of that and acknowledge it, yet none of us really talk about it or play with him that much, it's interesting.
-
I dunno. For just 1 DC, a really hard K' corner combo can give you 477 (The hard part being the dp+A, to dp+C link, but after that, it's cake).
I think it's a bit too early to say Hwa Jai's gonna need nerfs as two drive meter is not really a good investment for that damage. If he did 800-900, I'd think he needed some nerfs. Other than that, I think Hwa's fine and has some pretty good tools to make him good in the game. I think with enough experience and understanding of Hwa Jai, he's not that hard a match-up. If he doesn't have the momentum to keep pressuring you, he's not gonna get it back.
-
If Hwai has 1-2 bars after that, we're talking 600-700 damage in the corner. Holy shit.
Full HD bar and 2 meters in the corner is 900+ dmg. That's quite a bit. However, like Shen, damage isn't everything. Hwa has a tough time getting in against good zoning and against lots of pressure.
-
For just 1 DC, a really hard K' corner combo can give you 477 (The hard part being the dp+A, to dp+C link, but after that, it's cake).
Can you please tell us what that combo is? I would like to try it a bit~
-
For just 1 DC, a really hard K' corner combo can give you 477 (The hard part being the dp+A, to dp+C link, but after that, it's cake).
Can you please tell us what that combo is? I would like to try it a bit~
hop C, st.C, f+A, qcf+A, f+D, qcb+B, qcb+B (whiff), dp+A (1), [DC] qcf+C, f+D, qcb+B, qcb+B (whiff), dp+C, f+D
That does 477 damage for 1 drive.
-
Thank you~!
-
Full HD bar and 2 meters in the corner is 900+ dmg. That's quite a bit. However, like Shen, damage isn't everything. Hwa has a tough time getting in against good zoning and against lots of pressure.
My problem isn't so much the damage, technically every character can Touch of Death you if they have the meter and do the right Hyper Drive combos. My problem is just how easy it is to do that damage with Hwai.
-
My problem isn't so much the damage, technically every character can Touch of Death you if they have the meter and do the right Hyper Drive combos. My problem is just how easy it is to do that damage with Hwai.
Now I don't even understand your point. Earlier in the thread, you said:
My problem is how much damage that does and how easy it is to do.
What?
And how easy is what? The combos themselves? If so, the difficulty of a combo only really matters if it's too hard. You don't nerf a character because a combo is too easy. You nerf a character because of utility reasons or straight up damage reduction.
You also can't mean Hwa gets damage easily because of options, compared to someone like Robert who has a jumping command crossup and a drive-cancelable proximity unblockable, because he just doesn't have that kind of utility.
Lastly, it's Hwa. Hwa Jai.
-
Lastly, it's Hwa. Hwa Jai.
Excuse me, Princess! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ7NrApups8#)
Let me revise my point a little bit. What worries me more, is how easy it is to do that 500 + damage with Hwai with full Hyper Drive meter. Other characters can do that much, of course, but it costs at least 1-2 meters and they aren't piss-easy to do.
Does that make sense?
-
Let me revise my point a little bit. What worries me more, is how easy it is to do that 500 + damage with Hwai with full Hyper Drive meter. Other characters can do that much, of course, but it costs at least 1-2 meters and they aren't piss-easy to do.
Regardless of how easy a combo is, you can't dismiss how damaging is. That is fundamentally more important than how easy a combo is. I gave an example of how much damage Hwa can output and you dismissed it, yet you're bringing up damage numbers again. In that case, it's easy to get 700+ damage with Hwa with 0 stocks/full drive.
Here's a relevant topic example to show that I'm not discussing this for the sake of arguing:
Shen. He can kill a character with the least amount of hits, outside of dropkick Raiden. He also has a command grab and answers to zoning. Not top tier.
Does that make sense?
-
I suppose so, but only time will tell.
I think Raiden needs buffs...
The irony is outstanding.
His Air Grab looks all right, but to be honest I haven't had much of a chance at testing it. I don't want to even touch the Drop Kick, would it be possible to find a happy middle with the Drop Kick?
Some basic ideas I have:
Can combo off of Giant Bomb into Air Grab without Drive Cancelling (giant bomb is unsafe as hell, might as well give him something of benefit).
Can link off of standing C into Command Grab.
Can super cancel poison mist (ala Papa Shango) into either Super without using EX Poison Mist.
Possibly Super Cancel command grab into Grab Super? May as well, Clark and Goro can do it free.
-
I don't want to even touch the Drop Kick, would it be possible to find a happy middle with the Drop Kick?
Something interesting: you can use DKs in HD combos. In a previous blog post, they showed raiden doing two DKs in an HD combo stating that the DKs were charged at the beginning of the combo. That's pretty decent I think.
Can super cancel poison mist (ala Papa Shango) into either Super without using EX Poison Mist.
You can link the super raiden drop super after A poison breath - just like linking the head crusher off of A poision. The timing is a bit tight JFYI
Haha, although completely playable, I wouldn't mind seeing slight buffs to make things more interesting. How about super armor on his crazy train where crazy train has more range, juggled better, moved faster, has more punches and just charges everything down like the name implies and goes through fbs? :) too much? < of course you can just block it, but would be great if he had a cut through all the bull shit move.
or how about just being able to cancel off of the second hit of close s.C?
-
In fact is good..
-
Let me revise my point a little bit. What worries me more, is how easy it is to do that 500 + damage with Hwai with full Hyper Drive meter. Other characters can do that much, of course, but it costs at least 1-2 meters and they aren't piss-easy to do.
Regardless of how easy a combo is, you can't dismiss how damaging is. That is fundamentally more important than how easy a combo is. I gave an example of how much damage Hwa can output and you dismissed it, yet you're bringing up damage numbers again. In that case, it's easy to get 700+ damage with Hwa with 0 stocks/full drive.
Here's a relevant topic example to show that I'm not discussing this for the sake of arguing:
Shen. He can kill a character with the least amount of hits, outside of dropkick Raiden. He also has a command grab and answers to zoning. Not top tier.
Does that make sense?
Let me preface this by saying that I am both a Shen player and a Hwa player. I generally get better results with Shen than I do with Hwa if I'm playing against lower-level players. That being said:
Shen's meterless damage is actually damn near the lowest in the whole game, and he has literally no defensive or offensive tools at all aside from that grab or abusing invulnerability on his EXDM, both of which cost meter. His non-EX grab is slow to come out and gives piss-poor damage and no oki or anything useful really. Shen needs either a 1-frame link or FULL HD Gauge to do ANYTHING from a low hit, and his only overhead is so negative on block that Shen is asking to eat a full combo if he ever does it. So let's see, Shen with meter has... a good command grab, weak lows, super horrible overhead, no safe way to get close to opponents with better pokes than him (about half of the cast). Shen with full HD Gauge can do an HD combo from low, which is a feature that every single character has. If damage was the only thing that mattered, Shen would STILL not be top tier, because outside of HD mode he's STILL beaten by at least 6 other characters just off the top of my head, and WITH HD combos he's basically tied with almost every other character in the game in terms of damage.
Literally the only aspect that Shen would be top tier for is ease of use.
However for 1.5-ish drive and 1 meter (to drink) Hwa can in fact literally kill you from full health anywhere in the stage, but he also has invulnerable shoryu attacks which can lead to over 850 damage and a command grab that deals 400 damage for 1 stock, making it the single highest damage 1-stock move in the game. He also has safe pressure, waaaaay better pokes than Shen and beats him outright in every single department EXCEPT for ease of use. Yes Hwa's damage is low when he has 0 meter and 0 drive, but he can still poke and pressure MUCH better than Shen can, and he builds meter faster than almost any other character in the game, while Shen builds it extremely slowly. The character balance in XIII is quite good, but there are some characters that are obviously outclassed in every single aspect of the game by other characters. I mean, with 1 drive and 0 stock Hwa can deal more damage than Shen's best non-HD 1 drive 2 stock combos.
Louis is right about Hwa being broken. He's probably the strongest character in the game, period. People just haven't quite caught on yet. Louis doesn't quite have the numbers even close to as high as they actually are, but he certainly gets the fact that Hwa's potential damage and ability to land hits are insanely good compared to any other character in the game.
The nerf that I propose is actually quite needed, and it's also very easy to see why. If you make Hwa less able to gain meter while drunk (as opposed to how it is now, where he actually gains MORE meter while drunk), he'll be fairly balanced. Just cut his meter gain in half, or maybe even worse. As it is now, he has midscreen drive combos which build over 4 meter back.
-
Buff button mapping UI.
Buff netcode.
-
Let me revise my point a little bit. What worries me more, is how easy it is to do that 500 + damage with Hwai with full Hyper Drive meter. Other characters can do that much, of course, but it costs at least 1-2 meters and they aren't piss-easy to do.
Regardless of how easy a combo is, you can't dismiss how damaging is. That is fundamentally more important than how easy a combo is. I gave an example of how much damage Hwa can output and you dismissed it, yet you're bringing up damage numbers again. In that case, it's easy to get 700+ damage with Hwa with 0 stocks/full drive.
Here's a relevant topic example to show that I'm not discussing this for the sake of arguing:
Shen. He can kill a character with the least amount of hits, outside of dropkick Raiden. He also has a command grab and answers to zoning. Not top tier.
Does that make sense?
Let me preface this by saying that I am both a Shen player and a Hwa player. I generally get better results with Shen than I do with Hwa if I'm playing against lower-level players. That being said:
Shen's meterless damage is actually damn near the lowest in the whole game, and he has literally no defensive or offensive tools at all aside from that grab or abusing invulnerability on his EXDM, both of which cost meter. His non-EX grab is slow to come out and gives piss-poor damage and no oki or anything useful really. Shen needs either a 1-frame link or FULL HD Gauge to do ANYTHING from a low hit, and his only overhead is so negative on block that Shen is asking to eat a full combo if he ever does it. So let's see, Shen with meter has... a good command grab, weak lows, super horrible overhead, no safe way to get close to opponents with better pokes than him (about half of the cast). Shen with full HD Gauge can do an HD combo from low, which is a feature that every single character has. If damage was the only thing that mattered, Shen would STILL not be top tier, because outside of HD mode he's STILL beaten by at least 6 other characters just off the top of my head, and WITH HD combos he's basically tied with almost every other character in the game in terms of damage.
Literally the only aspect that Shen would be top tier for is ease of use.
However for 1.5-ish drive and 1 meter (to drink) Hwa can in fact literally kill you from full health anywhere in the stage, but he also has invulnerable shoryu attacks which can lead to over 850 damage and a command grab that deals 400 damage for 1 stock, making it the single highest damage 1-stock move in the game. He also has safe pressure, waaaaay better pokes than Shen and beats him outright in every single department EXCEPT for ease of use. Yes Hwa's damage is low when he has 0 meter and 0 drive, but he can still poke and pressure MUCH better than Shen can, and he builds meter faster than almost any other character in the game, while Shen builds it extremely slowly. The character balance in XIII is quite good, but there are some characters that are obviously outclassed in every single aspect of the game by other characters. I mean, with 1 drive and 0 stock Hwa can deal more damage than Shen's best non-HD 1 drive 2 stock combos.
Louis is right about Hwa being broken. He's probably the strongest character in the game, period. People just haven't quite caught on yet. Louis doesn't quite have the numbers even close to as high as they actually are, but he certainly gets the fact that Hwa's potential damage and ability to land hits are insanely good compared to any other character in the game.
The nerf that I propose is actually quite needed, and it's also very easy to see why. If you make Hwa less able to gain meter while drunk (as opposed to how it is now, where he actually gains MORE meter while drunk), he'll be fairly balanced. Just cut his meter gain in half, or maybe even worse. As it is now, he has midscreen drive combos which build over 4 meter back.
Unless it's a character that you can't do anything about and have to play a completely different mindset, I don't think Hwa's as dangerous as he looks. On the matter of Shen and Hwa, who is more braindead and harder, I've faced a lot of Shens and alot of Hwas. At any level, Shen is much more annoying. You forget, without using any meter, his Woo Punch break can lead you into more pressure. His hop D and hop CD are one of the best normals in the game. That leads you to do literally free pressure until you get a hit confirm or someone interrupts you. Playing Maxima, I can just guard point his jump attacks. Sometimes, I can't. Blocking just leads to more pressure if you're playing a good Shen. That alone makes Shen, a meterless Shen, much more dangerous than Hwa. At higher levels of skill, he can cancel his punch almost instantly and lead into another attack while you're still in block stun.
So he doesn't have an uppercut, he doesn't need one. If you could DP, you probably had enough time to react to it or predicted it. In that case, he's got plenty of anti-air normals and moves. For one, time it right, you can do his EX woo punch as an anti-air and super cancel it. If you time it right, you can even use far C and that's a free super right there. Qcf+B, d.C, neutral hop D. If they're jumping that high, you could just run under them and cross them up.
Hwa is dangerous, I'll say that, but to say because he has all these tools makes him superior to Shen is an opinion I feel is misinformed. You can't compare them; they play completely different and require a whole other mind set. For one, any of Hwa's specials can be punished. They're not safe to normal throws, some aren't even on block. If you know Hwa, it's not a hard match up. And lastly, almost any string he does, on the first hit, you can use one meter and GCAB out of it. At that point, he's either in autopilot or he doesn't follow it up because he can't. If you GCAB before his slide, he can't cancel it into anything safe and it's like -8 on block. It's even worse on whiff. Same thing with his Dragon Kick/Golden Heel knockoff.
-
You shouldn't do it all the time like I do, mix it in so nobody gets used to it, but you can set up someone for a guard crush if they're too scared to do anything.(pigtail cable (http://www.yc-antenna.cn/ProductsType/RF-Pigtails-Cable-with-Connecotor---Adapter.htm))
-
strength of hwajai is he can nearly kill a character with only drive when he is drunk from an invincible move. no one else can do it like he can
-
Hwa is dangerous, I'll say that, but to say because he has all these tools makes him superior to Shen is an opinion I feel is misinformed. You can't compare them; they play completely different and require a whole other mind set. For one, any of Hwa's specials can be punished. They're not safe to normal throws, some aren't even on block. If you know Hwa, it's not a hard match up. And lastly, almost any string he does, on the first hit, you can use one meter and GCAB out of it. At that point, he's either in autopilot or he doesn't follow it up because he can't. If you GCAB before his slide, he can't cancel it into anything safe and it's like -8 on block. It's even worse on whiff. Same thing with his Dragon Kick/Golden Heel knockoff.
Are you kidding me? That's not even how Hwa is played. Hwa doesn't need to telegraph anything, he can literally do over 1k damage without HD from cr.B. Also his qcf+A is safe on block, his qcb+D is +6 (holy shit) on block and he can link a combo after it or just keep you in blockstun with cr.B. Seriously, Hwa really has death combos from cr.B or basically any random light normal or any random hit at all.
So he doesn't have an uppercut, he doesn't need one. If you could DP, you probably had enough time to react to it or predicted it. In that case, he's got plenty of anti-air normals and moves. For one, time it right, you can do his EX woo punch as an anti-air and super cancel it. If you time it right, you can even use far C and that's a free super right there. Qcf+B, d.C, neutral hop D. If they're jumping that high, you could just run under them and cross them up.
Yes, so for 2 meter and 1 drive you can get around 300 (a guess, not sure on the exact numbers, but could be even less) on anti air with Shen. For 1 stock+1 drive Hwa gets 712 damage and gains a full meter back on his anti air. My point is that Hwa and Shen actually are very similar, aside from the fact that basically Hwa gets WAY more damage from every situation (aside from Shen's EX grab) and he also has way more tools.
If you want to compare their normals, Hwa's j.D is almost identical to Shen's j.D except that if he ever nails you with a jump-in with his j.D, he's probably going to deal around 800 damage with just 1 drive and 1 stock. Hwa's j.CD is better air-to-air than any move that Shen has (not saying much... Shen literally has no air-to-air at all), his j.CD can also be combod after without a counterhit for over 200 damage, and then with a counterhit... from 600 to 900 damage depending on if it's near the corner or not.
The real issue is that people don't actually know Hwa at all, they've just seen people playing him kinda... wrong for a long time now. Once people actuall know the kind of damage that Hwa gets from random hits and how many tools he actually has, he'll be considered broken, for sure.
This isn't my video... but it does show a bit of how much Hwa actually gets from a random jump-in. Keep in mind that he doesn't actually have to do this whole combo to already be doing broken damage, and also that he can do this FROM A cr.B and he can do it from anywhere in the stage! By just the half-way point in this combo the opponent was already just about stunned, had taken 750 damage, and no super had even been used yet (aside from the drink). The combo effectively gained Hwa meter BACK instead of costing it, and he did it with literally just a drive cancel, and nothing more.
KOF XIII [Hwa Combo DMG 1238] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8wovIr3w-Q#ws)
And if you think that this combo is not very realistic, I've done a variation of it (over 1k damage, not going to bother with a 1200 combo) in actual matches before.
-
I'm not going to call you false, but I do not honestly believe Hwa Jai's qcb+D is +6 frames on block. Recovery would have to be zero or the blockstun would have to be ridiculously long.
Other than that, getting big damage off of landing a hit isn't such a massive upset in KOF worth toning him down. He's definitely not comparable to Raiden in arcade. I do acknowledge that he can do a lot of damage, but I do not see how that makes him bonkers broken. In my opinion, if you know the character and what they're going for in this game, it's only a matter of stopping it or countering it. Hwa Jai's no different. He's not going to cram his 900 damage into someone experienced because that's not going to just happen.
-
in the corner when all hits connect its +. idk the exact number but 6 sounds fine
-
in the corner when all hits connect its +. idk the exact number but 6 sounds fine
I'm pretty sure it's also similar to Terry's where if you block it high or low it has more frame advantage, but +6 is quite a lot. Either way, being a multi-hit move, it can still be GCABed on any of the hits.
-
Hwa Jai is his excellent normals and good pressure game, sadly, some match ups for him are really bad, and being drunk is not that effective since first you need to be drunk, and second, need to land the combo
-
I'm not going to call you false, but I do not honestly believe Hwa Jai's qcb+D is +6 frames on block. Recovery would have to be zero or the blockstun would have to be ridiculously long.
Other than that, getting big damage off of landing a hit isn't such a massive upset in KOF worth toning him down. He's definitely not comparable to Raiden in arcade. I do acknowledge that he can do a lot of damage, but I do not see how that makes him bonkers broken. In my opinion, if you know the character and what they're going for in this game, it's only a matter of stopping it or countering it. Hwa Jai's no different. He's not going to cram his 900 damage into someone experienced because that's not going to just happen.
Yeah, his qcb+D is +6 on block, it has basically no recovery at all. You can link it into a close C very easily for true blockstun or just to combo after it.
Hwa is in fact completely broken, people just haven't quite noticed it yet for some reason. Nobody seems to even know how Hwa really works. He gets most characters' HD combos worth of damage from his 1 stock + 1 drive B&Bs from low normals and from invulnerable shoryus that can easily be used against hops or fireballs or ground normals. If you want to argue that a good player will never get hit by cr.B or an invulnerable shoryu or a crossup j.D or a j.CD air-to-air that beats even Takuma's (and can cross-up and be combod after even without counterhit) or a stand B at max range or a close C frametrap after qcb+D or a 0 frame grab DM or one of the many other tools Hwa has for landing hits, then we might as well say that a good player could never get hit by any attacks from any character. Hwa can literally hit you for 700+ from ANY of those random hits (aside from the grab DM, which is more of a fear tool than anything else, since nobody likes to eat 343 damage followed by a meaty crossup).
But if you take away Hwa's meter gain during drunk mode, then he would actually be more like Shen or Maxima, relying on having lots of meter and drive in order to get big damage. Right now he can build back drive and meter in higher numbers than his combos even cost, making him basically a character with infinite meter and high damage. If you look at that video that I posted, the shocking thing about it is not the damage that he gets (though that is shocking), it's the fact that he starts this combo with just the meter to drink and less than full HD gauge. And he gets over 1200 damage with these resources from midscreen.
-
And look at what has been done recently for climax:
Hwa
- Changed cr.B so that it can be HD bypassed.
D-:
-
After playing Hwa a lot I don't really think he needs nerfs. The thing is that he can't really do too much unless he's Drunk AND has at least 1 Drive Cancel set and even then it's difficult to land that D SRK. If they do a normal jump and you hit them at the maximum height of the their jump, you cannot DC into big damage. The only thing you can do is either another B SRK or straight super and if you hit them midscreen you have to reverse your inputs unless you have them in the corner.
He doesn't have much pressure. Other than standing D (which he can get sweeped if you're reckless) the only other thing he has that's relatively safe is jumping CD and air SRK or B Dragon Tail, the Blockstun left by the CD should leave you completely safe, I think.
And trust me, if he guesses wrong with that invulnerable D SRK, he's free as fuck.
-
After playing Hwa a lot I don't really think he needs nerfs. The thing is that he can't really do too much unless he's Drunk AND has at least 1 Drive Cancel set and even then it's difficult to land that D SRK. If they do a normal jump and you hit them at the maximum height of the their jump, you cannot DC into big damage. The only thing you can do is either another B SRK or straight super and if you hit them midscreen you have to reverse your inputs unless you have them in the corner.
He doesn't have much pressure. Other than standing D (which he can get sweeped if you're reckless) the only other thing he has that's relatively safe is jumping CD and air SRK or B Dragon Tail, the Blockstun left by the CD should leave you completely safe, I think.
And trust me, if he guesses wrong with that invulnerable D SRK, he's free as fuck.
Yeah, the D shoryu is way unsafe, but to be fair, what shoryu isn't? Any blocked/whiffed shoryu allows for a full combo as punishment, but I can't think of other shoryus that can give well over 800 damage on hit. And yeah, it's true that he always has to be drunk, but the issue is that being drunk has literally no downside at all, and since he gains back more meter while drunk, he can viably just stay that way almost constantly. But yeah, sober Hwa is quite weak, it's his only downside. My point is that it's not really Hwa that's broken, it's his drink that's broken. He simply gains back too much from it, and it essentially costs nothing to use. It's just the drink that needs some nerfs.
As for the climax buff to his cr.B, he really... didn't need that. First of all, Hwa doesn't even need HD combos to begin with, and second of all he could already just do cr.Bx2 into s.B, d/f+B into HD activate, or cr.B, cr.C, d/f+B into HD activate, so it's kinda a pointless buff. Doesn't really give him anything he didn't already have a better version of.
I dunno, whatever. If people think I'm crazy for thinking that Hwa is S+ tier, then that's fine with me. I mean, if SNK doesn't figure out how crazy he is before Climax is out, then I guess we're stuck with him as he is, and as a Hwa player I'm perfectly content with that.
-
its not a buff its a bug fix and it virtually doesnt affect the game in any way
-
I want Ryo to have his Renbuken back.
-
Heh, don't get me started...
He only has 4 specials now and doesn't have:
raijin setsu
raijin go
renbuken
bottle cutter
ryoute tsuki
kohou shippu ken
He could really use raijin setsu and renbuken would be a good guard punisher/combo maker in XIII.
Sad thing is there's too much clashing with robert for renbuken, not to mention that all the other kyokugens have cmd throws. The really sad thing is him not having an air cmd crossup like he HAD in AoF. Also, we won't be seeing his air fireballs with Yuri in the mix.
Alright here it is, even if they keep him a pure striker, I want kohou shippu ken, and raijin setsu. The former to give him more DC ability midscreen and the latter to get him in and deal with fb spam. Of course I would like EX raijin to give him a ground bound or something cool like that.
Now, to be a bit original vs the rest of his dojo-mates, how about the ground punish fb he had in AoF III. That would be the shizz. -As very few in the cast can punish downed opponents rt now.
(all that comes to mind is EX Iori, Goro and (EX Kyo in very specific combo situations))
-
Would be awesome if he could OTG w/ Raijin Setsu like in NGBC.
-
Ryo with his raijin setsu will be IMO more highly regarded on tier lists in general
-
Hell agree w/ both u guys.