Dream Cancel Forum
Pao Pao Cafe => Social Club => Topic started by: solidshark on December 13, 2011, 04:53:25 AM
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http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/guest-editorial-momentum-matters-a-historical-perspective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/ (http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/12/guest-editorial-momentum-matters-a-historical-perspective-on-the-fgc-and-esports-communities-2/)
I'm willing to call this SRK's best frontpage article ever. It's got a TL;DR part to it, but you'll be surprised in how far you'll be reading before you realize.
This is one issue I and probably everyone worries about the more it's talked about. I suggest everyone gives this a read, as it goes over ours and their(StarCraft 2 is the example used) gaming/competing cultures so thorougly; but also, one thing I don't think UltraDavid or any commentors brought up is a few things things:
-If fighting gaming gets big enough and corporately supported enough, how will that effect the games being made in the future? We're already seeing that now with easier modes and comeback mechanics, but how far can it go catering to whatever brings bigger numbers in. I feel spoiled after XIII with how much they listened to player requests and made it more challenging to master than most current fighters.
-The way SC2 seems to be purely or mostly an online game, while it might force all companies to invest more in netcode that works well anywhere in the world, how much will that effect offline efforts which guys like me think are still very essential.
-With the differences in corporate cultures of Japan vs America for example, imagine if those relations or negotiations become strained and start messing with players and tournament issues?
Overall, I'm more accepting of the underground status the fighting game community has. It couldn't hurt for us to grow with some help, but I believe growth can come with it too.
So what do y'all think?
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The problem is, who truly deserves a say in this? Like, personally I'd rather not see the FGC go to esports, but I don't deserve to have say in it because I wouldn't be as affected. Like, I'm not a top player, who would I be to say they can't actually move on and get more opportunities to earn money. This issue can be very sensitive and honestly, I'm gonna try to avoid this one.
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not exactly to sure about how i feel on this myself im not exactly one for esports(i hate that term) or fighting game tourneys and i think the entry level for a fighting game is still way to high compared to the level like a FPS or a RTS
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I talk about this issue to death pretty much every day IRL and on SRK.
Ultradavid's article is terrible. He draws comparisons that make no sense and he's painfully ignorant of the history of gaming outside of the FGC. In essence, it's a 30 thousand word document filled with verbal diaharrea. He's being called out from every gaming community, for good reason. He doesn't give those other gaming communities the proper respect they deserve from also building their scene from the ground up 10 years ago.
Just a really disingenuous rant disguised as an article and the rest of the FGC is eating it up like it's truth.
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I talk about this issue to death pretty much every day IRL and on SRK.
Ultradavid's article is terrible. He draws comparisons that make no sense and he's painfully ignorant of the history of gaming outside of the FGC. In essence, it's a 30 thousand word document filled with verbal diaharrea. He's being called out from every gaming community, for good reason. He doesn't give those other gaming communities the proper respect they deserve from also building their scene from the ground up 10 years ago.
Just a really disingenuous rant disguised as an article and the rest of the FGC is eating it up like it's truth.
You mean they think they are...I bet 95% of them didn't even read the full article. Hell, even I didn't, and I ALWAYS read the full article.
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Who's "they"? Just need more clarificiation.
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Who's "they"? Just need more clarificiation.
In reference to you saying the FGC is eating up as truth. Just saying most of them are just assuming it is because they probably didn't even read the article other than maybe a paragraph.
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You're right, most people probably didn't get through that entire Great Wall of Text. It just bothers me that people don't get educated in all the facts (there's a ton of misinformation out there) before making a decision, and when a prominent figure in the FGC says something, a lot of people will fall in line like sheep.
This particular issue I am REALLY emotional about, and I'm not sure why lol.
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I'm the opposite. I'm emotional about a lot of issues...just not this one. Probably because I know my game will never be at the level where having the option to go to community events or eSports events will actually matter to me.
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I don't think it's a good idea to get ourselves involved with esports. We're our own entity, and have survived well enough without any commercial and bureaucratic bullshit. It's bad enough that people are already scavenging to get sponsored. I think it's pathetic, honestly.
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I hoinestly think that Ultradavid should had made the article shorter, I read it all but felt that he could had made more reads and get to the point more quickly without boring me to death
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I don't think it's a good idea to get ourselves involved with esports. We're our own entity, and have survived well enough without any commercial and bureaucratic bullshit. It's bad enough that people are already scavenging to get sponsored. I think it's pathetic, honestly.
Would you prefer if there were no sponsorships period?
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I don't think it's a good idea to get ourselves involved with esports. We're our own entity, and have survived well enough without any commercial and bureaucratic bullshit. It's bad enough that people are already scavenging to get sponsored. I think it's pathetic, honestly.
Why shouldn't we get involved in eSports? Survival and success are 2 completely different things. The FGC will survive regardless, we are one of the most resiliant groups of gamers out there. But I want more than just survival. I want to see the FGC go legit, have pros make real money.
I will never get to that level, but that doesn't matter. I think the FGC has some of the most talented gamers and seeing them suffer because of the refusal of a few in the community to adapt irks me. It's not that I am all gung ho for MLG and leagues, but I want the choice to come from the community as a whole (top players, average gamers, spectators), not from a small elite group that "represents" us. If we collectively choose to stay underground, outside of the sphere of leagues, than so be it. But we should have a say. The least they can do is open that option to us.
Now I'm mad. LOL.
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But here's the thing, even as a whole, the FGC is somewhat splintered between games and different subtypes of FGs. Why is this important? Because Esports aren't going to take on ALL FGs, just the most popular ones.
As of now, that's AEv'12 and UMvC3...but considering the unlikelyhood of getting those due to licensing issues, then we move on. eSports are also EXTREMELY unlikely to pick up any 2D games tbqh, so that takes out KOF and Blazblue. That pretty much leaves the 3D Fighters, which is no surprise as the only two FGs supported by eSports were 3D Fighters. Which means, more than likely Soul Caliber V and Tekken Tag 2 as the only candidates.
TBQH, anyone who doesn't play 3D Fighters should not get involved in this unless Capcom actually decides to deal with the licensing, which I doubt will happen. I don't play them, so I personally should not have an opinion and rightfully so.
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For sure, the FGC is a very loose term to collect all the various fighting game players into one term. Again, I agree that if you don't play the game or participate in the community for the game that is chosen, the choice isn't really up to you. But as of right now, it looks like MLG wants to pick up SFIV and that's pretty relevant to anyone that goes to SRK.
I just have a feeling that the SRK brass is cockblocking something. I don't know the inner workings of the SRK elite, but from a logic point of view, I don't know why SFIV wasn't already in the MLG to begin with.
It would be kinda sweet if 8WR managed to get SCV into MLG, I really like that series and I think it's interesting enough from a spectators POV to get successful at the highest level... as long as the highest level play isn't super degenerate.
Or KOF gets super popular and that goes into MLG lol.
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Actually, even if the SRK Illuminati or whatever gave a seal of approval...it still falls on Capcom for the whole licensing thing, which again, likely won't happen. That's kind of the problem.
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That's something that's always bothered me... I know capcom is a backwards ass company, but why in the world wouldn't they allow a league to run their game? And how did Dreamhack get SFIV into the lineup?What criteria/threshold does capcom wait for before they step in and say "yo, you need our permission now"?
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That's something that's always bothered me... I know capcom is a backwards ass company, but why in the world wouldn't they allow a league to run their game? And how did Dreamhack get SFIV into the lineup?What criteria/threshold does capcom wait for before they step in and say "yo, you need our permission now"?
I think it's more Capcom Japan than anything. Capcom USA would be more than willing to get behind that most likely as they see how much promotion the FGC can bring to their games. Capcom Japan are very sturdy in their ways. Besides, isn't there some law in Japan that says they can't run tourneys or whatever for money because it counts as gambling? I mean, I know it'd have no effect on things happening here, but meh you never know.
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But here's the thing, even as a whole, the FGC is somewhat splintered between games and different subtypes of FGs. Why is this important? Because Esports aren't going to take on ALL FGs, just the most popular ones.
As of now, that's AEv'12 and UMvC3...but considering the unlikelyhood of getting those due to licensing issues, then we move on. eSports are also EXTREMELY unlikely to pick up any 2D games tbqh, so that takes out KOF and Blazblue. That pretty much leaves the 3D Fighters, which is no surprise as the only two FGs supported by eSports were 3D Fighters. Which means, more than likely Soul Caliber V and Tekken Tag 2 as the only candidates.
TBQH, anyone who doesn't play 3D Fighters should not get involved in this unless Capcom actually decides to deal with the licensing, which I doubt will happen. I don't play them, so I personally should not have an opinion and rightfully so.
This is important to realize as well.
I don't know that I will say to get rid of sponsorships as a whole, but the FGC is way too diverse to accommodate everybody's games for coverage, and the united FGC that we are will be heavily divided. I enjoy hearing opinions from players that play unheard of FGs, as you can apply fundamentals these games to any game. The FGC is strongly linked like that, but if the community becomes the Street Fighter 4 community, and not the Fighting game community, we're going to miss out on a lot of this diversity. I believe the diversity is what makes us strong, and to have eSports get involved will cause us to lose that diversity. If anybody thinks that the old schoolers are elitest, like I've been called many times, what's going to happen when we have these elitist old school gamers, the elitist "pro gamers", and then everybody else? Fuck that... There's enough separation within the community, that we don't need another facet of segregation affecting it like that.
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Fractured and diverse communities exist in every genre. I suppose calling it the FGC is too broad of a term since there ARE many different types of FGCs. But it's undeniable that SFIV and MvC3 are the biggest and most popular games in the genre, so it will have to be representative of the genre. Are they the BEST FGs? I don't think so, but it doesn't matter what I think, it's what the majority thinks.
As an example, I think the best RTS is Company of Heroes. But obviously, it will never reach the numbers that SC1/2 will reach, so pro leagues picked the most popular and obvious choice, which is fine. It's up to MLG to recognize that there are different groups within the FGC and plan accordingly.
Just take SFIV and SCV to cover both 2d and 3d. Lets see how they do.
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I think that the key difference is that at least how I perceive it, is that for example the FGC is far different from the SC community just for the fact that the first one embrace almost any game with 2 life bars, one meter bar, and a timer, while the second is just starcraft, sure maybe some players could play other RTS, but here their main focus is SC
If this goes e-sports, how many games will go there? will we see justing wong blasting on SF IV and then into UMVC3? how many brand new gamers we could see facing some sponsored guys who make a living on this, you will not expect to see for example seeing an random local football team beating some teams on the nfl or premier league, yesterday I was entertained on SF IV streaming if Iperu could reach the top
Finally, how this ''in the ghetto'' culture is bad for some, I could share that, if weren't because almost all the arcades came from the ghetto, this is in USA, Chile, an lots of other countries, don't know japan, but I doubt that is some sort of sophisticated entertainment
But then, we had another problem, how this guys could keep going to majors, if they could make a living playing videogames and at the same time had a normal life where they could eat and do other things, it will be really cool if this guys could earn a living doing this, they could make their level better and maybe be more entertained, I will love to see Team Chaos, DC, Bala, Reynald, and others going into every major, but is a big sacrifice for them.
So Actually, I could see both points of view, I don't know if it's my cynical me, but I just can't see this working like everyone is expecting, lots of guys see this as the cinderella story where some company gives just money to play videogames, in part is true, but you had to consider the big risks of all of this, this will be like working and some liberties will be gone, and there is the risk that if you stop to be that good, they will more than likely to drop you, and you are done, as far as I know lots of guys are really bitter with this experience, I wish that some people could take this in consideration
But still, I think that we are already going into the e-sports route, judging the difference from the EVO 2010 to 2011 is a really big one, and I'm sure that we will note and every bigger difference next year, I wish that everything is ok for all of us, but I'm not that high on it honestly
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Coming from a background of counter strike years back (stopped playing around 2k7) I don't get the big deal with being anti-esports. Everything is already heading in that direction already so no point in being stubborn about it.
The only people who should be worried are people who play fighters that aren't street fighter 4 and marvel. Since those are going to be the games those leagues focus on and where all the money will be going. I can totally see a similar problem that happened to pc games happen here. The games that don't get the spotlight end up having a very tough time getting decent competitive communities built around them as everybody flocks to where the real money is.
Then again that already happens now to non capcom games anyway.