Dream Cancel Forum
Pao Pao Cafe => Podcast => Topic started by: nilcam on May 17, 2011, 11:04:01 PM
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Desmond Delaghetto and I talked with Dark Geese, DeadlyRave-Neo, jinxhand and steamwolf about player improvement, online vs travel and state of the community and the fighting game community as a whole. Please leave any comments in this thread.
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My questions weren't really answered :(
You should limit to how many people you have on at once and you should do some more interaction yourself. You were quiet throughout most of the show.
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To be honest, we didn't really answer or get to a lot of people's questions, there was a lot of shared insight and opinions on a single subject that if we did get to everyone's questions the show would've been 12 hours long, hahaha.
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Wow this episode was amazing, yall had me dead with all those jokes haha.
Comments
- DG, DRN, Jinx, Steam need to be on more episodes, you guys provide superb commentary
- A lot of unaswered questions bro
- Is the episode limit always 1 hour 30 minutes? maybe a episode 2.5 is in order
Besides that I enjoyed the Podcast very much, I'm hype for the next episode already, how can you not play KOF after hearin' this yo?
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good podcast
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The only reason I brought up my questions not being answered is because Nilcam said "That pretty much answers Giby's questions" (paraphrasing) after a discussion about online vs offline.
I still want to know if Ash's pants make my butt look big :/
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yes it does
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Besides that I enjoyed the Podcast very much, I'm hype for the next episode already, how can you not play KOF after hearin' this yo?
I'm glad you enjoyed it, I had a lot of fun talking with the guys, I laughed so much, lol. And I hope it inspires and motivates people to play and practice KOF more.
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Good stuff guys, I finally got a chance to finish listening it.
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I'm listening to it right now, good so far. I have a question about Macros: Do ppl consider having one button do rolls, CDs, ABCs as one button, is that consider a macro or is it only limited to combos?
I know that wasn't the point of the entire discussion on the podcast, but I was just wondering how ppl feel about having one button do something that you would have to normally press separately.
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Macros is referring to full combos or moves (DPs,Fireballs) which is completely cheating, one button rolls and CDs is fine since a lot of the the console versions come with stuff like that. Even EVO allows one buttons 3K or 3P for ultras since that's default config.
EDIT: How do you feel about it?
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Macros is referring to full combos or moves (DPs,Fireballs) which is completely cheating, one button rolls and CDs is fine since a lot of the the console versions come with stuff like that. Even EVO allows one buttons 3K or 3P for ultras since that's default config.
EDIT: How do you feel about it?
Well, I think that how arcades have it setup is the way I feel it should be, I know not everyone agrees with me, but a macro to me is a pre-programmed combination, some are longer that others, but nevertheless it does what all macros are set out to do--it simplifies the input no matter how you cut it. An extreme case would be XII's simple mode vs normal mode, but you get my point.
Years ago, I know we had this debate with DG on SRK right around 98UM. Some ppl will argue that it's the "timing" as pressing 3 buttons manually are the same (let's use '98UM's ABC=QMAX for example), which is true to a certain degree, but it eliminates any chance of "error" in pushing the buttons off sync etc.
A huge advantage? No. Is it a form of macro? Yes, IMHO.
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Macros is referring to full combos or moves (DPs,Fireballs) which is completely cheating, one button rolls and CDs is fine since a lot of the the console versions come with stuff like that. Even EVO allows one buttons 3K or 3P for ultras since that's default config.
EDIT: How do you feel about it?
Well, I think that how arcades have it setup is the way I feel it should be, I know not everyone agrees with me, but a macro to me is a pre-programmed combination, some are longer that others, but nevertheless it does what all macros are set out to do--it simplifies the input no matter how you cut it. An extreme case would be XII's simple mode vs normal mode, but you get my point.
Years ago, I know we had this debate with DG on SRK right around 98UM. Some ppl will argue that it's the "timing" as pressing 3 buttons manually are the same (let's use '98UM's ABC=QMAX for example), which is true to a certain degree, but it eliminates any chance of "error" in pushing the buttons off sync etc.
A huge advantage? No. Is it a form of macro? Yes, IMHO.
People call these macros but macro is actually sequence of actions like d, df, f+P. This is a multi-key binding. For SF I know key binding 3 keys (PPP or KKK) is normal and widely accepted and is used to reduce margin of error. But for throws and focus attack (2 buttons) it's still allowed, but some people frown upon it and some don't. The reason for this is because when there are 6 different unique buttons for pad, you'd have to hit 2 buttons + 1 button on the shoulder which is a awkward hand motion, whereas KoF uses 4 buttons and do not require one of the unique buttons on the shoulder of the pad.
I think a good argument is that if the binding is allowed in the original button configurations, it should be fine. If it's not in the original configuations then maybe not. Either way it's a slight advantage in that it reduces margin of error.
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Well part of the "raw podcast" we had talked about this guys. Basically now and days because of the "Dabbler Syndrome" you have people that are demanding macros (or should I say binding because full fledged macros simply is not acceptable!) in these games to be able to play them, be it the ABC or whatever they demand that it's in or they won't play. So as an organizer you have to walk the fine line between banning everything or allowing only the programs/binding that don't really truly affect the game.
You've got the OG's that argue everything should be the way it is in the arcade, then you have the new blood that feel you should do what it takes to bring in new players, be it "dumbing down the game" completely or what have you and there is a wide spectrum of views on both sides.
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In 98UM I use a one button A+B+C combination on my arcade stick for doing Qmax combos, which I found more easier than hitting all three buttons at the same time...In 2002UM, I just hit B+C manually.
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Something about this episode I forgot to mention. DRN, you say that Emil never dropped combos back in the Kaillera days. I played Emil a few times (MOTW/KOF) and he dropped a ton of combo's. I don't recall him doing Terry's feint chain on me once. Even in KOF, he would drop things, and he wasn't as good as he is nowadays. I played several people on Kaillera that used macros/program pads, and it was very obvious, especially when they would get combos 100% of the time in the worst possible delay (Storm, a MOTW player who would use the Jae sD, d+AC, dash, sD.... and pull it off 100% of the time. Emil was never anything like that when I played him or watched people play him. Even til this day I still see him drop combos when I watch his matches.
As for the whole button binding debate, I personally feel its BS. Practice the combos until you get them down. Hitting three buttons at once is a chore at times, and not everyone can hit them 100% of the time, but the more one practices the more successful one will be in pulling it off. the 3K/3P only recently became allowed in tournaments (SF4 era).
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good job on the pod cast guys
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Ah, binding was the word I was looking for.
As for the whole button binding debate, I personally feel its BS. Practice the combos until you get them down. Hitting three buttons at once is a chore at times, and not everyone can hit them 100% of the time, but the more one practices the more successful one will be in pulling it off. the 3K/3P only recently became allowed in tournaments (SF4 era).
So you're saying it should not be allowed to bind multiple buttons--is that what you're saying? Just double checking. I used to play pad when I played kof2k on mame and I remember having to adjust my fingers (so you're using it like arcade buttons vs using your thumb) to play Jhun but it's still doable.
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Yes, I feel that binding buttons gives an unfair advantage as it lessens the chance of error. I use a pad like I'm playing on stick too, and it is very doable to hit multiple buttons on pad, it just takes practice.
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I have to agree with Giby here. I've never been one to use any sort of binding or macro.
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the 3K/3P only recently became allowed in tournaments (SF4 era).
You have to realize that console tournaments have only been really popular since that time. Prior to the SF4 era, practically every other game was run on a tournament based around cabs. This mostly being due to the fact that fighter ports on consoles were either equal to or inferior to their arcade counterparts due to hardware limitations of the past.
That said, I'm indifferent on button binding. Macros, no, because it lets you program a series of inputs or actions that may or may not be highly difficult. Binding is just simplifying push buttons together. I think you guys are overreacting on pressing 3 buttons and "timing". Look at it this way: even with the rise in popularity of console tournaments, how are pad players faring? Are they consistently winning more than stick players who don't use binding? How is this "unfair advantage" helping them if they're not consistently winning? That's what an advantage is, right? Something that helps you win? I have yet to see anyone in any fighting community complain about binding, or even remotely think that it's a proper excuse that you might have lost because someone else used it. DISAPPOINT, KOF COMMUNITY. Binding doesn't make you a better player, period... and knowing... IS HALF THE BATTLE!
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An advantage is something that aids you, but it never guarantees a win. The only binding I know that is allowed in SF tourney's is 3P/3K, in SNK tourneys people want many things bound to a single button: BC/ABC for KOF, AD/AB/AC/dAC/fAC for MOTW, AC(might be BC I forget) for RB2 and more. It helps in some games more than others. I proved this several times in MOTW when I bound feint to a single button and did semi infinites on people. I can preform this without the aid of a feint button, but my success rate is only 30-35% on stick and around 60% on pad. The feint button increased my success rate to 90-95%. Button binding also eliminates the need for muscle memory with some combos, especially in games like RB2 and MOTW where feint moves are used. I'll admit that having BC bound isn't as bad as having a feint bound, but it still reduces the chance for error.
I don't know how you have never seen anyone in the FGC complain about button binding since it was a huge topic at one point. The only reason many of the players accept it now is because it allows the newer players to preform things easier.
I understand the reason for using it in this era, but I'm still against it.
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An advantage is something that aids you, but it never guarantees a win.
Advantage is negligible if it's not helping you win. Otherwise, steroids wouldn't be a big deal, right?
I don't know how you have never seen anyone in the FGC complain about button binding since it was a huge topic at one point. The only reason many of the players accept it now is because it allows the newer players to preform things easier.
I understand the reason for using it in this era, but I'm still against it.
I stand corrected. I meant to say "still complaining about it". I remember it happening during competitive TTT back in the early 2000's. Even today, in T6, pad players use bindings for 1+4, 2+3, or throws (especially King's since his throw strings commonly implement 3 or 4 button combinations). In GGAC, RC's and FRC's are bound to one button, and if you know GG, that's a big deal. Yet, people aren't complaining about it.
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I knew someone that used a sidestep button (mapped to L1 or R1) in TTT. We all thought that was so scrubby.
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Advantage is negligible if it's not helping you win. Otherwise, steroids wouldn't be a big deal, right?
Last I checked, Barry Bonds didn't win a WS. Steroids = performance enhancer, just like button binding enhances once performance without shrinking the testicles ;)
I stand corrected. I meant to say "still complaining about it". I remember it happening during competitive TTT back in the early 2000's. Even today, in T6, pad players use bindings for 1+4, 2+3, or throws (especially King's since his throw strings commonly implement 3 or 4 button combinations). In GGAC, RC's and FRC's are bound to one button, and if you know GG, that's a big deal. Yet, people aren't complaining about it.
GG is the only community I know of that never complained about binding RC/FRC for pad players, but I think that's because most GG players started playing on pad when it came out on PS2. I remember an outcry in the Tekken community about players who bound buttons for his throw chains, and other things overtime it became accepted (never found out why).
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That was a fun podcast, is cool to see someone got the point I was trying to pull out with my Community question. I didn't go that depth in the question, because I was about to go to sleep, so I just thought of it and wrote it. lol
But it was good that you guys talked about the issue of KOF having many KOFs that are still been played, unlike the other fighting games. Which most of the people go and use the latest version of the game for tournaments, even if the game has issues. That was the main point on my question and is good that it got through.
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the 3K/3P only recently became allowed in tournaments (SF4 era).
You have to realize that console tournaments have only been really popular since that time. Prior to the SF4 era, practically every other game was run on a tournament based around cabs. This mostly being due to the fact that fighter ports on consoles were either equal to or inferior to their arcade counterparts due to hardware limitations of the past.
That said, I'm indifferent on button binding. Macros, no, because it lets you program a series of inputs or actions that may or may not be highly difficult. Binding is just simplifying push buttons together. I think you guys are overreacting on pressing 3 buttons and "timing". Look at it this way: even with the rise in popularity of console tournaments, how are pad players faring? Are they consistently winning more than stick players who don't use binding? How is this "unfair advantage" helping them if they're not consistently winning? That's what an advantage is, right? Something that helps you win? I have yet to see anyone in any fighting community complain about binding, or even remotely think that it's a proper excuse that you might have lost because someone else used it. DISAPPOINT, KOF COMMUNITY. Binding doesn't make you a better player, period... and knowing... IS HALF THE BATTLE!
It's not really a complaint per se, it's more the principle of things. It's like if I had an autofire button set for Yamazaki's DM, it's not really a big deal because most ppl can get to his lvl 4 version easily, but it's an advantage no matter how slight it is because you can always not reach lvl 4 if you're slow at tapping it manually but the autofire eliminates the chance of error--by principle, it's not an even match (for the record I think binding QMAX to a button is worst than autofire because you're really eliminating a chance of an error. In the Yama example you just do less damage, in the QMAX example you might even eat a combo).
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Nice podcast. Happy to hear a lot of opinions similar to my own regarding online vs offline and graphics.
As far as binding goes, my hat is in the camp against it, especially for 3-button or 4-button games, since pad players can just use a claw-grip with their right hand for those to get around the 1-thumb problem. With 5-button or 6-button games, I can understand why it's allowed, but it is still a (very) slight advantage to use it. It might only make a difference in like 0.00001% of instances, but it is still an advantage because it takes away any chance of execution error (real example, I lost a match in an AH3 tournament this past weekend because I hit BC instead of AB, something I don't think I've ever done in any game before). Not enough to raise a fuss about, but it is there.
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If you're not physically incapable of pressing certain buttons because you physically lack a full set of fingers (thumbs), hands, arms, or anything else that would make you legally handicapped, then button binding shouldn't even be in your repertoire... Even if you are, macro's should still be out of the question...
Real talk, there's cats in the Tekken scene with barely any fingers and still manage to play with the standard 4 button setup on a pad... Changing the position of the buttons I don't sweat, but when they're starting to get combined into one button, then no... And hell no to macros... That's straight up cheat mode imo... I didn't even like Ultra Combos in KI initially because it just took one motion to do this mad crazy looking combo...
3P/3K was accepted before SF4 timeframe... I remember it being in the SFZ games as well, and a few other Capcom games like JJBA... Tekken players don't accept those button bindings in tourneys either (even though most cats that use them are grapplers that play on pad -- but half the time you can just rub your hand on all the buttons and some grapple combo will come out :) )... But yeah, macros and button binding should be on the same level as turbo buttons, BANNED...
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binding shouldn't fly in a tourney, IMO. I agree that it's a simple principle that should be respected.
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It was an interesting podcast, good topics covered and thought it was a well rounded debate.
Look forward to the next one. :)
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Random chime-in, I only use binding for BC (Quick Max) when I play KOF on pad because doing it normally messes up my timing, however if I'm playing on stick I don't use/need them.
IMO they're just for convenience, although I could see why some people (i.e TO's) would want to draw a line in terms of how convenient those "binds" should be in a tourney/tournament atmosphere.