Dream Cancel Forum
Other Fighting Games => SNK Games => Neo Geo Battle Coliseum => Topic started by: Remzi on July 23, 2011, 08:34:55 AM
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This has been pissing me off.
Yuki actually has good options, a godly anti-air that combos into everything, advantage against Kim and fairly good combos in general. Rock just sucks. Nako is generally good and has fairly high damage output. BIG has way too many punishable options. Akari has a shitton of frametraps, powerful combos, insanely good pokes, OTG's, parries, an airgrab, and errthing else.
God
Goodman
S
Kim
Hotaru
A
Haohmaru
Neo-Dio
Washizuka
Mizuchi
Robert
Akari
Marco
Moriya
Kisarah
Lee
Kaede
Iori
Hanzo
B
Mr. Big
Tung Fu Rue
Kyo
Mai
Fuma
Shiki
Mars People
Athena
Shermie
Mr. Karate
Cyber Woo
Terry
Ai
K'
Nakoruru
C
Geese
Yuki
King Lion
Asura
Chonrei
Genjyuro
D
Chonshu
Mudman
Rock
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What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...
Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?
I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???
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What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...
Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?
I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???
Thats the Japanese Tier List that much I can tell you just from looking at it.
American Tier List/future Puebla, Mexico Tier List is this (July 2011):
GOD Tier:
Goodman
S Class:
Big, Kim, Hotaru,
S-:
Hanzo, Marco, Lee (In a Master's Hands he is the Angel of this game, the hardest character to master, but S Class in a Master's hands, I am going to Challenge Mexico to master him, a definite project for KULA...)
A Class:
Neo Dio, Tung, Iori, Kyo, King Lion, Mizuchi, Moriya, Kaede
B: Cyber Woo, Fuma, Kisarah, Goddess Athena, Akari, Mars Peep, Robert, Mudman, Mr. Karate, Haohmaru, Chonrei, Chonshu, Asura, Mai, Washizuka, Shiki, Ai (If you can master the infinite which I will get Kula to master just to show you guys how viable she can be in the RIGHT HANDS)
C: Rock, Geese, Mars Peep, K', Shermie, Nakoruru
Bottom Tier:
Genjuro, Yuki
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What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...
Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?
I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???
This was a mixture of Japanese and USA tier lists. Which characters in particular should I explain?
Nah. I'd make a matchup chart but I don't know a bunch of character's matchups aside from the ones I play.
My list is fairly matchup based, along with general potential. Worse the matchups, worse the character.
Geese, I really don't get your tier list. Mudman is bottom tier like everywhere, and wait. Lee being top? Lolno. He's great, but his stuff isn't too reliable and he has no legit methods to get out of pressure. I will give him this : He has a fantastic 4-way mixup off resets.
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What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...
Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?
I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???
This was a mixture of Japanese and USA tier lists. Which characters in particular should I explain?
Nah. I'd make a matchup chart but I don't know a bunch of character's matchups aside from the ones I play.
My list is fairly matchup based, along with general potential. Worse the matchups, worse the character.
Geese, I really don't get your tier list. Mudman is bottom tier like everywhere, and wait. Lee being top? Lolno. He's great, but his stuff isn't too reliable and he has no legit methods to get out of pressure. I will give him this : He has a fantastic 4-way mixup off resets.
I can see Lee being top tier at his maximum potential, being able to do things the way the Japanese player Debukun plays him, he is extremely deadly with meter, and I've played against a good Lee before so I know what he's capable of even in that matter. So I am looking at Lee in the maximum potential in Mexico at least... You say 4 way mixup I say he has way more than that in the right hands, if they can land his launcher to reset combo consistently, have access to meter, do not drop comboes, mix in the command grab and his crossups, Lee is extremely hard to fight trust me on this, he's Vega on steroids with a command grab you can combo off of at his maximum potential..good enough I could see in someone like Kula's hands or someone in Mexico with extremely high execution to place him Top Tier.
Remember he was A Class in US Tier List, so a jump from A to S isn't as big as you may think..it's all about the level of execution of the player, if the player has top level execution, Lee is S Class...if they don't have top level Angel level execution, Lee is A Class at best.
Thus my tier list is moreso again based on what I will see in Mexico in a year or so (mark my words...).
Hopefully that clarifies things!
=)
Mudman, I don't see him as Bottom Tier either because he can annoy people that do not have a good reversal or good DP to stop him (Hotaru, Marco for example), sure his damage isn't great but he can do enough damage and has a good enough mixup that he is better than Geese, Rock, or the C Class so he's not Bottom Tier at least here/Mexico. Mudman has been D Tier, but again I say like a lot of these characters? How often do you see them played??? I also had Mudman at A Class by accident, I'd say he is B Class...A Class gives him difficulty.. with the exception of Mizuchi, Mudman can shut down Mizuchi because Mizuchi cannot do much to stop dive kicks...
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Mizu has 623C > Divekick.
BIG is rated as S in most places. He's not that good though. Half of his moves are stupid unsafe and stupid GCFS-able. All he has is pokes, and semi-decent damage output if you're doing his fireball loops, which are high-execution.
Lee gets raped vs anybody with a good antiair and one decent normal w/ knockdown. Saying you've played against a good Lee isn't too significant considering I have too. It's easy to figure out Lee's tricks and avoid them. He has a 3-way directional mixup, and a grab from resets, which means it's four different options, ala 4way mixup. His crossup is fairly bad and can be ducked by many characters, unlike Iori's crossup move. Lee is A, not S. He's not Angel, he doesn't have stupid infinites off everything, nor does he have meterless combos that corner you and cost you 30% of your health. He has gimmicky resets and a decent mixup game.
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Mizu has 623C > Divekick.
BIG is rated as S in most places. He's not that good though. Half of his moves are stupid unsafe and stupid GCFS-able. All he has is pokes, and semi-decent damage output if you're doing his fireball loops, which are high-execution.
Lee gets raped vs anybody with a good antiair and one decent normal w/ knockdown. Saying you've played against a good Lee isn't too significant considering I have too. It's easy to figure out Lee's tricks and avoid them. He has a 3-way directional mixup, and a grab from resets, which means it's four different options, ala 4way mixup. His crossup is fairly bad and can be ducked by many characters, unlike Iori's crossup move. Lee is A, not S. He's not Angel, he doesn't have stupid infinites off everything, nor does he have meterless combos that corner you and cost you 30% of your health. He has gimmicky resets and a decent mixup game.
Yes anyone with a good anti air (good meaning it covers both sides of the character) can shut down Lee, Big can as well. The thing about Big though is he has the least BAD matchups..thats the thing matchups...and also a thing about BIG vs Lee is he (Lee) can't even cross him up because of the Spin Twirl Special. But I see Lee in the right hands again being good enough to be S-, and I have him as S at the end because I see him being like S- or borderline S played at his maximum potential. Lee has gimmicky resets, a decent mixup which can be deadly at the highest level, he's one of the fastest if not the fastest character in the game.
If MudMan does instant dive kick I believe his instant dive kick comes out faster that Mizuchis Dp+C. Instant dive Kick I mean right off the ground, not the one where he jumps and then does it..it comes out too fast.
I'll just have to show you this once I motivate Mexico to play him at his highest level..then you'll see what I'm talking about...I am going to make sure the people playing him play him to his maximum potential... Which I highly doubt most people in the Western Hemisphere have seen..but that is about to change let me assure you about that!!
At this point I think videos over a period of time would suffice (and remember when it happens, I told you so!)
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Big's average matchups are neutral, which means he doesn't deserve top-tier. Srsly.
Lee is good, doesn't mean he's top.
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Big's average matchups are neutral, which means he doesn't deserve top-tier. Srsly.
Lee is good, doesn't mean he's top.
He really doesn't have a bad matchup in the game, Kim doesn't either. Hotaru has a problem against well guess who? Mudman!!!! Marco even has problems against Mudman..
If a character has no bad matchups perse- that is one factor determining their high tier ranking. If a character has more bad matchups than good, well they are normally lower on the tier ranking. But I also say "Matchups" determines on how a character plays with a given character. So for example as Hummer said, Japanese style Choi vs. Japanese Style Iori, Japanese Choi wins.
But Japanese Choi vs. Mexican Iori, Mexican Iori wins...so this is why I say again there is still a lot out there left to be determined even if the game has been out for a while..the matchups may not be set in stone per se..I challenge people to justify every matchup in the game if they believe it to be in stone.
Also again remember, there are different tiers in different countries!!! So just because one character may not be top in one country for various reasons (As we've said may not get used a lot as a whole for people to know the full potential) doesn't mean they won't be top in another!
Also another thing with Lee I bet probably the Lee you were playing wasn't doing as it is very very difficult to do on a consistent basis:
Negative Edge Combo to f,b,f+C of cr.a x2 to launcher..
Expert Lees must master that to take him to the next level, not even the Lee I was playing could do that, but I do believe the people I am going to be telling to master it in Mexico will be able to take Lee to that next level I'm telling you about that I see him as in the right hands..
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He really doesn't have a bad matchup in the game, Kim doesn't either. Hotaru has a problem against well guess who? Mudman!!!! Marco even has problems against Mudman..
All the time I've played Hotaru, never had an issue with Mudman aside from my own stupidity / mistakes. She can deflect all of his projectiles, she has hyperarmor moves to break out mudman's mixups (which will get counterwire due to the fact his mixups have stupid counterhit frames)/
Marco has no issues with mudman. his grenades act as a fast AA, and you can easily machine-gun through his projectiles. Marco's jetpack > any projectiles that Mudman can use. Mudman's mixups are viable to the fact that Marco can summon a hobo.
Kim has issues against Yuki and a few other characters. BIG has issues with the following. DIO, Mizuchi, Tung, Washizuka, Moriya, Kaede, Iori. All of his other matchups are neutral or barely positive.
The Lee I was playing was doing 2BA 646C -> Resets. Lee ISN'T THAT GOOD. He has mixups. He still lacks damage output for the most part, and his resets are gimmicky because all of them can be jumped out of.
Also, how the hell is Hanzo S- tier? His damage output is terrible compared to other high-tiers, and he can't chain off lows.
Tung is NOT A-Tier. He has very few tools to properly rely on.
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Hanzo can chain off of lows, Cr. B, link Cr. A, DP or QCFx2+K. You're tier list is all wrong especially with Big being that fucking low.
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Hanzo can chain off of lows, Cr. B, link Cr. A, DP or QCFx2+K. You're tier list is all wrong especially with Big being that fucking low.
cr.BA doesn't lead to much. DP's whiff most of the time.
Everything BIG does is punishable, most of his normals can be GCFS'd, his projectile can be jumped, etc. That, plus the fact that the throw glitch breaks everything about him.
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If Mudman can get in the area in between Marco's grenades he can lock him down with Dive Kicks.
Grenades only cover a certain amount of space, it doesn't cover vertical space at all. I played Cajunstrike at Final Round a long time a go and I picked Mudman to counter his Hotaru-Marco team and took advantage of this very matchup....Hotaru cant counter instant divekicks fast enough but again you can't just be doing instant dive kicks, you have to mix it up with MudMan of course.
Tung also can give Hotaru and Marco a hard time if he can get in the area that they can't counter Dive Kicks well..you have to know where that area is for both Hotaru and Marco..
Marco- Again its the area that both grenades don't cover...all Mudman has to do is get him in that "area" and then Marco's gotta use meter to escape or get out...as in those money matches if you watched Cajunstrike has to do the same.
Now Marco has a good time keeping Mudman out, but when he gets in..it can be a problem.
Big does have some problems against Mizuchi that's correct remember about that.
Hanzo is very much versatile, easy damage of almost anything, good mixups, good defense, doesn't have too many bad matchups, can fight the top tiers.
Tung? Tung doesn't have much yes that's true, but he can make up for that with the amount of damage he can do....he doesnt need meter, Dive Kick Muscleman gives two meters, and we all know how much damage Tung can do.... and though the majority of his game is around landing Muscleman in its variety of ways, he also can link EX kicks off a sweep, and other things....plus he doesn't need meter at all!!
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Mudman can slide his way through most of Marco's crap, and at times air float if used with a super jump. Sometimes you might have to use those dives to shorten the air time, however... It takes some patience, but its worth it because Marco doesn't really have anything up-close except for his knife stance, but getting into that from straight zoning would be difficult right? Bait that Marco dive, and GCFS to grab, and then knee all day!!! Woo!!! Oh yeah, his running projectile super eats most of Marco's shenanigans, and if in range, that beam super catches Marco if he's trying to zone out. Some situations require a sacrifice hit, but all in the name of closing in...
Hanzo is so solid its ridiculous... I can't tell you how many solid Hanzo players I've fought who displayed good zoning and rushdown and was able to switch up instantly... All he needs is that 1 low hit, and 1 stock of meter, its a wrap!!!
As far as Big goes, man he should not be so low like that... Lariat is one of the best AAs in the game!!! Torpedo closes in and crushes lows, and can be used to push to the corner while staying up close to the opponent...
Please understand, GCFS is good, but its not that great. There are setups built just for the sole purpose of having the opponent waste meter thinking they can capitalize using GCFS. Delay-canceling into a multi-hitting move works among other things.
The hardest person to master in the game I feel is-- Yuki... I feel there are some others, but he seems to take the cake imo... Knowing the charges and when to use them, especially in combos, are essential. He has the weakest pokes I believe, mostly due to either them not being able to cancel, and/or it lacking range. Weak command throw that requires a charge doesn't help either. I feel its a tie between him and Asura as to who's specifically bottom tier...
Tung only needs meter for EX dash punch, which eats throw certain projectiles... Other than that, no he doesn't need meter at all...
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Hanzo can chain off of lows, Cr. B, link Cr. A, DP or QCFx2+K. You're tier list is all wrong especially with Big being that fucking low.
cr.BA doesn't lead to much. DP's whiff most of the time.
You don't use Hanzo's DPs to combo on the ground, those are strictly for AA combos-- avoid the C DP altogether, his A DP is way better... As for 2B 2A, it doesn't lead to much, because all he needs is that to the super, or his kick special... His real game comes in the form of mixups, especially teleport to overhead crossup with 9B which can lead to the only combo he needs...
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Agreed with everything jinxhand says....
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As for 2B 2A, it doesn't lead to much, because all he needs is that to the super, or his kick special... His real game comes in the form of mixups, especially teleport to overhead crossup with 9B which can lead to the only combo he needs...
No good combos off lows, exactly. His mixup game is strictly based on the teleport which is limited because most characters with a good 2C uppercut will violate any teleport -> j.B
As far as Big goes, man he should not be so low like that... Lariat is one of the best AAs in the game!!! Torpedo closes in and crushes lows, and can be used to push to the corner while staying up close to the opponent... .
Which proves you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I'm done persisting this point to idiots.
Mod Edit: There's no need to insult anybody when expressing your views or frustrations about a particular subject.
Lariat is extremely unsafe because it can both be ducked under for a free low combo, and as an AA it's fairly poor because air-fireballs, flight, good air-normals (Kim's j.D, Hotaru's j.2B, etc), airdives, etc. It's broken by everything.
Torpedo is EXTREMELY unsafe no fucking matter what or how you set it up. It can be punished for extremely high damage by ANYBODY.
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Who the hell is going to be throwing out random Torpedoes and not doing lariat on reaction to something it can beat?
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The prototypical way I've seen Big played is rushdown cr.a's and Cr. D hitconfirming ala 3s Chun-Li or something (Which I haven't seen many that good at lol) lock you down until you get thrown alot, and use BD Lariats a lot as AA,
but I play him differently than that, I utilize his instant overhead (Neutral Jump C), his overhead itself (f+a albeit it slow), his jump A/ jump forward B Air to Air, and other things underutilized that Prototypical Big uses may not use to make up for the differences Remzi is talking about.
Basically for torpedo you only throw it out if you know it's going to hit or from a distance which you are certain they can't punish and even then it's too risky..I hitconfirm torpedos off cr.D (and if you don't you die), so it all depends how you play Big.
The way Remzi is talking about if you play him that way yes someone that knows how to punish him will punish him accordingly..but if you play him the way I am playing him hard to get around that...if you jump you'll eat Air to Air jump A,
If you stay on the ground I'll get you with Instant overhead thus setting up cr. b and crouch D to which again I don't see Cookie Cutter Bigs use enough of (Instant Overhead)....NGBC matches coming this weekend a few of them I will use Big!!!
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Lariat vs flights??? There's only 4 characters who can really do that, and some of their options aren't too great with the exception of a few moves... Who just throws out lariat anyway on the ground when its clear that it can be ducked under??? Only good use outside of AA is to combo, and that's on a rare occasion... I never said that there weren't moves that beat lariat, I just said its one of the best AAs in the game -- not "the" best, but "one of the" best... Big is strong. I'm sure there's matches to prove that...
If I didn't know what I was talking about, why would a high level player agree with me??? And even if there were some things wrong with my statements, I'm sure he would be glad to correct me in a peaceful manner... I don't have a problem with corrections, I'll be the first to admit I made a mistake (MP's 22BD not being unblockable for example). Disagreement in discussions is fine, just keep those emotions and words in check; this is NOT srk...
Hanzo doesn't need any real combos, he only needs 5A, 2B or just simply 2B to either his kick special, or his super, which does a good amount of damage... If Hanzo teleports so that he can get a cross up j.B, there's not many AAs that can be used backwards to counter this if done correctly... So what if he can't do many different things off of lows. All I'm saying is that all he needs is 2B to his super.
Let's put this in perspective... Here's a match showing what they're capable of doing, as well as showing some of Lee's resets...
[NGBC match] A-cho 1on1 Battle Carnival 2009 (3/8) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YA1LxIA2i8#)
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That character linked in that match also is Debukun, the #1 NGBC player in Japan according to the Japanese players I've spoken with (including the guy he's playing in that match who is Fujihara)....that's the level of the Lee I am talking about everyone, once Lee gets to that level, he is S Class....
Also Hanzo's Cr. b in itself people forget how good it is...cr.b has excellent range so it can punish a lot of things and hitconfirm into super so for example, punishing Big's BD Lariat Hanzo can do cr.bxxSuper or anything of that nature..
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Not that this really matters to me, but would it be safe to say that there can be at least 1 tier list based on what characters actually can and can't do in a match-up, and how they can use the game's system to their advantage??? I do agree with the whole fact that tiers change per region, but that's solely based on the players plus what the character can/can't do. With that said, I don't really think there should be 1 character on a tier list more than once. Like for instance, I don't feel there should be a j/f Tung and a regular Tung. If he's placed in mid because of j/f MM, then the player willing to learn Tung needs to simply master this in all situations (combo, AA, etc.) or get crushed-- myself included...
While I was typing that, DOA4 came to mind. Sure, everyone knows that the ninjas are basically top tier, but that alone is simply based on matchups. In the actual game itself, there are charts that shows tier listing based on popularity (how many times "x" gets picked) and strength (how many times "x" wins period [I think vs everybody]). These charts are divided per region, so obviously Tengu might be strong in Asia, but Jann Lee is strong in the states, even though based on the match up chart/tier list, Jann Lee is way higher than Tengu. This might not always apply because of online tactics, but its still something that should be looked at, because I feel that its things like these that help people step their game up. Things like this will avoid situations in where a player from another country plays a typical "low tier" character, and simply takes that money from the tourney because no one practiced against that character for whatever reason.
Anyway, yeah Hanzo definitely has reach with 2B. People also forget how easy it is to builid meter in this game, so doing simple things like moving, or even standing still, meter is still being built, so Hanzo can and should always have at least 1 stock of meter to use for combos. 3 of those combos + some oki, or just 4 combos can pretty much crush any character.
Another thing that I forgot about that makes him pretty good is 9B. His jumping knee has been used alot, especially leading to the dreaded 5A, 2B xx whatever combo... It's not better than just a simple cross up 8B from a teleport, but its still just as good...
As a typical speed character, Lee's speed makes up for his lack of damage. He does have things that eat up life on counter hit though. Plus if used right, the opponent won't know if they're gonna be thrown, command grabbed, hit with an overhead, crossed up, or have their guard broken. He does have some priority vs other characters' strong attacks with his 9D, and a few other attacks.
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Plus another thing people forget is that the meter in this game autocharges, so in that helps meter build faster.
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What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...
Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?
I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???
Thats the Japanese Tier List that much I can tell you just from looking at it.
American Tier List/future Puebla, Mexico Tier List is this (July 2011):
GOD Tier:
Goodman
S Class:
Big, Kim, Hotaru,
S-:
Hanzo, Marco, Lee (In a Master's Hands he is the Angel of this game, the hardest character to master, but S Class in a Master's hands, I am going to Challenge Mexico to master him, a definite project for KULA...)
A Class:
Neo Dio, Tung, Iori, Kyo, King Lion, Mizuchi, Moriya, Kaede
B: Cyber Woo, Fuma, Kisarah, Goddess Athena, Akari, Mars Peep, Robert, Mudman, Mr. Karate, Haohmaru, Chonrei, Chonshu, Asura, Washizuka, Shiki, Ai (If you can master the infinite which I will get Kula to master just to show you guys how viable she can be in the RIGHT HANDS)
C: Rock, Geese, Mars Peep, K', Shermie, Nakoruru
Bottom Tier:
Genjuro, Yuki
But where is Mai? D:
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What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...
Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?
I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???
Thats the Japanese Tier List that much I can tell you just from looking at it.
American Tier List/future Puebla, Mexico Tier List is this (July 2011):
GOD Tier:
Goodman
S Class:
Big, Kim, Hotaru,
S-:
Hanzo, Marco, Lee (In a Master's Hands he is the Angel of this game, the hardest character to master, but S Class in a Master's hands, I am going to Challenge Mexico to master him, a definite project for KULA...)
A Class:
Neo Dio, Tung, Iori, Kyo, King Lion, Mizuchi, Moriya, Kaede
B: Cyber Woo, Fuma, Kisarah, Goddess Athena, Akari, Mars Peep, Robert, Mudman, Mr. Karate, Haohmaru, Chonrei, Chonshu, Asura, Washizuka, Shiki, Ai (If you can master the infinite which I will get Kula to master just to show you guys how viable she can be in the RIGHT HANDS)
C: Rock, Geese, Mars Peep, K', Shermie, Nakoruru
Bottom Tier:
Genjuro, Yuki
But where is Mai? D:
B Class...
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How is Lee harder to master than Yuki??? I understand knowing the setups and crossups for Lee and knowing the resets, but he doesn't have much in combos, there's only 1 or 2 instances in which something can only combo on counter hit. Other than that, if you can out-manuever your opponent and overwhelm him/her, then it shouldn't be too hard imo... His 360 grab does suck in comparison to some of the other characters' 360 throws...
Yuki on the other hand technically only has 2 safe rushdown moves (sans GCFS), and that's 2D (and canceling to IAD into something else) or the first 3 inputs (hits) of Mutation Combination. Other than that, his 2A sucks, his 2B is ok, but not compared to Lee's. Yuki has a limited air game. In fact, he's only good in the air with a timed 9C, or sometimes 9B, but its not like Iori's jumping B, that's for sure. He doesn't have any normal cross ups that don't involve using a special. Lee has I think 3 crossups, and one of those 3 is a command normal. Yuki can do damage, but it involves a charged special, or comboing with a level 3. Lee can simply do a few combos + oki, and it can be over for the opponent. Yuki has better defensive options though, but most of them are situational (i.e.- Sengoku counter, 214A/C, IAD to avoid grounded projectiles, 236A/C).
I feel Ai can be just as hard as Yuki, only because she simply has weird normals, with weird priorities. Same goes for her specials. Alot of them are simply unorthodox, but still have their uses when the setup calls for it. For instance, she's one of the only characters whose projectile can act as a good AA with the right spacing + she can summon tetris and hit it across the screen; I would say Mudman has that same ability, but there are plenty of ways to get around that if you know that he can only have 1 straight, 1 arc, and 1 super out-- the real problem is knowing the order in which the come out and running through them. Her counter is only good for projectiles only, I believe.
Geese, while is one of my favorites in this game, is definitely not the one of the stronger versions of Geese. I feel he's lower, even though he has great normals that can be used to punish, especially standing C. He can do damage, but its only in the corner, and when its midscreen it requires blue canceling at least once (although I think there's one combo he can do that allows oki with reppuuken). Nakoruru is weak, too, but I feel she's stronger than Geese, primarily due to her better combo in the corner that can be added with a 1 stock super, vice Geese, who requires a lvl 3 super to actually combo a super in the corner. Her specials can avoid some projectile spamming, as well as close the gap between her and the opponent. Her command normal actually has good priority, too.