Dream Cancel Forum

King of Fighters XIII => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nocturnal on November 22, 2011, 08:14:15 PM

Title: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Nocturnal on November 22, 2011, 08:14:15 PM
Post all your lag/delay tests here for online matches. Also make sure to specify which system you are playing on, distance from the person you were playing and internet connection speeds (how many bars). I'll be posting my impressions soon once I get my copies for both systems.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: arstal on November 22, 2011, 09:37:30 PM
3 bars was what I needed for a solid connection on PS3 with broadband cable.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: UltraChingon on November 22, 2011, 10:20:06 PM
anyone want to try some games on ps3? kind of scared since my ps3 has been acting up on my network so if any one close to CA want to give it a try.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: GuamoKun on November 22, 2011, 10:23:56 PM
anyone want to try some games on ps3? kind of scared since my ps3 has been acting up on my network so if any one close to CA want to give it a try.

I'lll try.

I get home from school at 5.

I live in CA. PSN:guamokun
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: UltraChingon on November 22, 2011, 10:25:37 PM
@guamokun ok ill send friend invite so we can try wen you are free
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 22, 2011, 10:49:42 PM
Sabin is doing a KOF XIII stream right now and he will be testing the online

http://www.twitch.tv/nycfurby (http://www.twitch.tv/nycfurby)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: sibarraz on November 22, 2011, 11:24:11 PM
I will only recommend it for people who has players near of them, since imo large distance will be bad
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Nikolai VolKOF on November 23, 2011, 12:47:12 AM
3 bars was what I needed for a solid connection on PS3 with broadband cable.

More people with broadband cables please
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Xxenace on November 23, 2011, 01:06:44 AM
system:xbox

usual connection:3 bars

ive played a guy who lived in the same state as me it ran great a 3 bars and we were both using wireless

i played deadly rave neo i had 2 bars but i believe he said that his internet was cause him some trouble so im not sure yet

played saitsuofleaves a few minutes ago didn't feel anything noticeable though he said somethings felt iffy on his end
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Ironreaver on November 23, 2011, 01:11:56 AM
Noc i'll let you kno when i get off work in an hour or so. ;)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: desmond_kof on November 23, 2011, 02:51:14 AM
I'll do more specific testing with some members here, but so far its playable but I do feel delay. It's not like bad 2002UM delay, but it's there. I can do combos and some drives, but somethings are hard to punish. 2 bars is unplayable, 3 is so-so while the green connections were more playable.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Spooty Whiteboy on November 23, 2011, 02:54:23 AM
system:xbox

usual connection:3 bars

ive played a guy who lived in the same state as me it ran great a 3 bars and we were both using wireless

i played deadly rave neo i had 2 bars but i believe he said that his internet was cause him some trouble so im not sure yet

played saitsuofleaves a few minutes ago didn't feel anything noticeable though he said somethings felt iffy on his end

I was the guy from the same state.  I actually have Wired, and not Wireless.

And to repost what I said at SRK.

I played with Mycah Leonhart (who is 1,200 mi away) and the match ran almost the same as my match with Xxenace.  So, the netcode does hold up.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: SonicTempest on November 23, 2011, 06:51:09 AM
Xbox 360
My location: Seattle
My connection: 15Mbps cable (Comcast), wired
My friend's location: Detroit (or thereabouts)
My friend's connection: Not sure, but it is wired
Connection: 2 bars

Pretty bad. Significant input lag. My friend was missing all his juggle moves (could tell since he was playing Vice and trying to go for HCF+BD after a mid-air normal and whiffing almost every time) and hitconfirming was more or less impossible.

I'll be casting the net a little smaller and looking for people to test with who are nearer to me.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Spooty Whiteboy on November 23, 2011, 07:34:54 AM
Xbox 360
My location: Seattle
My connection: 15Mbps cable (Comcast), wired
My friend's location: Detroit (or thereabouts)
My friend's connection: Not sure, but it is wired
Connection: 2 bars

Just so people don't have to check.  That's almost 2,400 miles.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: kofrookie on November 23, 2011, 07:50:52 AM
360 here on an 18mbit down/0.5mbit up wired cable connection.  Played multiple people today and there definitely was some input delay, but it was mostly minor at 3 bars and a bit heavier at 2, still playable though but it takes adjustment.  It's no GGPO but it's not as bad for me as some people make it out to be.  Definitely a lot better than 2002UM.  I haven't found anyone with 4 bars yet.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: LouisCipher on November 23, 2011, 08:00:59 AM
System PS3
Cable internet: 5 MBS down, 250 upload (could be better I know)
East Coast (Upstate NY)

Gonna' hop on in a few minutes. I haven't turned on my PS3 in almost a month so I expect a lot of updating.

My user name is Alex3rdStrike on PSN in case you want to get a few matches in.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: shinefist on November 23, 2011, 12:56:03 PM
Should hopefully get this tomorrow.

After hearing people bitching about the lag i have a question for anybody to answer.
I was watching sabins play and he said online on 3 bars still sucks, ok. But when he's playing on line you can here his stick going so you can read the delay right, ok thats fine. My question is that when he goes into offline practise mode with vice for example, why does he still have delay in the offline which resembles the online, offline is slightly better. Go take alook for yourself.

My personal answer is that kof's moves and movement have always been not as responsive as capcoms games, thats just the way snk builds there games, you will hardly notice, but thats another reason why people find kof hard to get into.

Also you would think player matches would run better too, which he does try in the end.

Guess i'll find out soon enough.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: solidshark on November 23, 2011, 01:03:40 PM
It's probably best to keep www.speedtest.net (http://www.speedtest.net) in mind for checking your internet connection. Checking mine here, it's at best this:

6.59Mb/s download
0.71Mb/s upload
Ping 37
350 ml from Tokyo
D+ standards in Japan

Will try to get mine upgraded, maybe do a before/after test.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: omegaryuji on November 23, 2011, 02:13:57 PM
My question is that when he goes into offline practise mode with vice for example, why does he still have delay in the offline which resembles the online, offline is slightly better. Go take alook for yourself.

My personal answer is that kof's moves and movement have always been not as responsive as capcoms games, thats just the way snk builds there games, you will hardly notice, but thats another reason why people find kof hard to get into.
On a related note to this, y'all ARE aware that the game was designed with a slight bit of latency, right?  As in, arcade version feels a little laggy compared to 2002.  If that's all you're feeling, it's part of the game, not bad netcode.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 23, 2011, 02:29:01 PM
I talked with a friend.He has the 360 version and a cable connexion and he is not a brainless fanboy.The netcode is bad period.NOT bad as in XII but bellow ssf4 ...there is a lot of room for improvement.If you like 3 to 5 max combos and lag enjoy it... but stop defending a bad netcode.Personally i hope playmore will patch it good this time so it will be at least sf4 standards.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: shinefist on November 23, 2011, 03:34:18 PM
Just stating the truth about kof games, its true, moves dont come out as fast, whilst games like blazblue and sf, the moves come out faster.

Like i said we'll find the truth soon enough ourselves.

Is that correct about what omegaryuji says, i wouldn't know i never played it?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: nilcam on November 23, 2011, 03:54:11 PM
In the arcade version, there were settings to remove lag from inputs to compensate for the type of monitor used in the cabinet. The idea was to create a standardized experience regardless of the hardware in use.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Diavle on November 23, 2011, 04:03:44 PM
I talked with a friend.He has the 360 version and a cable connexion and he is not a brainless fanboy.The netcode is bad period.NOT bad as in XII but bellow ssf4 ...there is a lot of room for improvement.If you like 3 to 5 max combos and lag enjoy it... but stop defending a bad netcode.Personally i hope playmore will patch it good this time so it will be at least sf4 standards.


I ate Andy's sC, f+A, HCF+K (break), QCF+P, QCF+P, DP from a 2 bar game. That's on day one of the game and the guy wasn't even that good overall.

No need to overdramatize things. 2 bars is bearable (suprisingly playable actually, often times) and 3 bars is very solid. 4 bars must be really good (haven't had a chance to try one yet) going by how good 3 is.

I put about 5 hours worth of play in yesterday, most of it was spent in online matches. Playing the PS3 version with a wired DSL connection. I didn't talk with a friend.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: affinity on November 23, 2011, 04:15:55 PM
my first match online was 4 bars with someone. 

Silky smooth! :)  (And I won w/ Leona, Mai, Athena team)   
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: thec0re3 on November 23, 2011, 04:16:40 PM
My question is that when he goes into offline practise mode with vice for example, why does he still have delay in the offline which resembles the online, offline is slightly better. Go take alook for yourself.

My personal answer is that kof's moves and movement have always been not as responsive as capcoms games, thats just the way snk builds there games, you will hardly notice, but thats another reason why people find kof hard to get into.
On a related note to this, y'all ARE aware that the game was designed with a slight bit of latency, right?  As in, arcade version feels a little laggy compared to 2002.  If that's all you're feeling, it's part of the game, not bad netcode.

I noticed that too I wonder why.

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1608251200.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)

(http://www.pingtest.net/result/51106824.png) (http://www.pingtest.net)

I'm on xbox 360

I've only been able to get 2 bars. I've connected to someone who was just about 100-150 miles outside of where I live and still the same. The matches definitely feel better than KOF2002UM.   I did a wired connection it was from a router to a hub connection. I don't have a cord long enough to reach directly to my xbox360 otherwise I would do that to make sure. I originally have it hooked up to a wireless client bridge and they pretty much work the same so I don't know.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: omegaryuji on November 23, 2011, 04:24:51 PM
In the arcade version, there were settings to remove lag from inputs to compensate for the type of monitor used in the cabinet. The idea was to create a standardized experience regardless of the hardware in use.
Exactly.  Game was designed with something like 3 frames of latency on purpose.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 23, 2011, 05:36:11 PM
I talked with a friend.He has the 360 version and a cable connexion and he is not a brainless fanboy.The netcode is bad period.NOT bad as in XII but bellow ssf4 ...there is a lot of room for improvement.If you like 3 to 5 max combos and lag enjoy it... but stop defending a bad netcode.Personally i hope playmore will patch it good this time so it will be at least sf4 standards.


I ate Andy's sC, f+A, HCF+K (break), QCF+P, QCF+P, DP from a 2 bar game. That's on day one of the game and the guy wasn't even that good overall.

No need to overdramatize things. 2 bars is bearable (suprisingly playable actually, often times) and 3 bars is very solid. 4 bars must be really good (haven't had a chance to try one yet) going by how good 3 is.

I put about 5 hours worth of play in yesterday, most of it was spent in online matches. Playing the PS3 version with a wired DSL connection. I didn't talk with a friend.


First i wanna say wassup to Dreamcancel, this is my first post here. shoutouts to the admin as i certainly know a few of them irl. thx for watchin the stream.

i gotta say dude reading your post...i gotta say no, just no man. if people post thinks like that, SNKP/atlus will think they have good netcode when its really, really not the case. Plus you mentioned you are playing on PS3/DSL..that's already problems right there in the bag so I'm assuming you are not familiar with how input delay works. I most likely have a better connection than you by a factor of 10x over, and its still not acceptable for matches outside of 4 bar. I know I'm new to the game, but im very lag sensitive, and can tell input delay right away. practiced in training mode for hours to get used to the feel of the game offline before i jumped in and saw how it was.

to put it into perspective, my connect is good enough that i can stream and it will not affect the quality of netplay at all due to good ping times and symmetrical upstream.

It's not overdramatized dude, if kof13 doesnt get a patch i cant really see ppl playin on it. its not even sf4 quality. The only good connections I had were with ShinOni (another FiOS user, so fiber optic x fiber optic,) wolfkrone (recently got the best internet possible in his area, NY to detroit, and a few other 4 bar connecitons randomly in ranked. 3 bar is shit most of the time, i have gotten a few playable 3 bar connections but its very rare. you can see it in my stream archive, i have extreme difficulty quickrising on 3bars and the delay is inconsistent (due to netcode being input delay not GGPO rollback based.) i know im not 100% familiar with quickrise timing since im new, but ive played older kof's plenty, so im pretty sure i know how to quickrise. lol on 4 bar with shinoni it worked fine.

given the fact that my connection is WAY above average in the US, its def going to be worse experience for most people when they get their hands on it.

to shinfist: the stream is not displaying the game at a perfect framerate. It's on 30fps right now and 13 is a 60fps game right? so that might explain the issue of lag even if offline mode while watching me play. of course its not lagging for me offline though but it def might appear that way to you on the stream.

anyway wassup peeps
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Spooty Whiteboy on November 23, 2011, 05:37:28 PM
I talked with a friend.He has the 360 version and a cable connexion and he is not a brainless fanboy.The netcode is bad period.NOT bad as in XII but bellow ssf4 ...there is a lot of room for improvement.If you like 3 to 5 max combos and lag enjoy it... but stop defending a bad netcode.Personally i hope playmore will patch it good this time so it will be at least sf4 standards.


I like the KoF series, but I'm not a fanboy.  I mean, I just joined this site yesterday.

That doesn't change the fact that I have had good experiences with online 3-bars.  I have performed Kyo's corner orochinagi juggles and I can link Mature's qcb+D to standing C.

It is about SF4 quality.  It perplexes me that people are having such bad experiences.  Is it perfect?  No, it could definitely use some tuning, but it isn't shit either.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 23, 2011, 05:43:04 PM
multiple people who have had fiber optics like myself (i personally have a 43mbit/37mbit upload connection, 5ms to my local test server) have said the same thing, extremely hard to find excellent games on their setup. Zerp000 uploaded a video a few days before release showing a test on SRK. ShinOni (who also has fiber optics, in MD) saying the same thing as well. he could not get smooth games either except for a few people. when we actually connected, input delay was great. but its fiber/fiber which is not typical for most of the US.

if you're somewhere on the east coast, id love to test it with you personally. ill test it again but i played for 12 hours and came back with a sour taste in my mouth.

EDIT: Was all done on XBOX. Like I said the great connections I had NY to MD on Fiber to Fiber - NY to Detroit when I played Krone was great too. I'm not sure what his internet package is but he just upgraded to the best in his area.

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1558699440.png)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Spooty Whiteboy on November 23, 2011, 05:52:42 PM
multiple people who have had fiber optics like myself (i personally have a 43mbit/37mbit upload connection, 5ms to my local test server) have said the same thing, extremely hard to find excellent games on their setup. Zerp000 uploaded a video a few days before release showing a test on SRK. ShinOni (who also has fiber optics, in MD) saying the same thing as well. he could not get smooth games either except for a few people. when we actually connected, input delay was great. but its fiber/fiber which is not typical for most of the US.

if you're somewhere on the east coast, id love to test it with you personally. ill test it again but i played for 12 hours and came back with a sour taste in my mouth.

I'm in NC, so I am on the East Coast.  I can test with you if you play on 360, but it would have to wait until next week (holidays and such).

I don't have Fiber Optics, I have slightly above average internet.  And it might just be that I'm ok playing with a little more input lag than you.  Or maybe I'm just not that great at the game yet, so I'm ok with dropping combos, because I figure it is my fault and not the game's fault.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 23, 2011, 05:57:04 PM
yeah exactly dude, just because youre ok with the delay and can adjust (props to you i wish i could do that) doesnt mean the netcode is good by any means. not tryin to put anyone on blast here of course but i think that a lot of people that said the netcode is great dont have a 100% understanding of how to reduce lag on their setup, or are playing in laggy environments the whole time due to not having a scene. and yeah sure, hit me up whenever man
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Diavle on November 23, 2011, 06:04:21 PM
Hey man, enjoy your streams/commentary in tourneys.

Games have been good for me, is all I can say.

Were the matches amazing offline quality? Nope. Am I going to continue playing online based on my experiences? For sure, and that's all that matters to me personally. I don't have a local scene or offline friends I can rely on.

Maybe its because I've played using emulators for years and can adjust my timing based on various degrees of lag (hello entering parry a second or more in advance lol) but nothing I experienced outside of 1 bar games was anything to cry about. 2 was bearable and 3 very playable. 4 I have yet to try.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: TYRANNICAL on November 23, 2011, 06:08:24 PM
I expected the netcode to be playable enough for things like basic BNBs, Drive and Super cancels.  HD combos? Nope.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Diavle on November 23, 2011, 06:09:53 PM
I expected the netcode to be playable enough for things like basic BNBs, Drive and Super cancels.  HD combos? Nope.

That's pretty much the way I expected it as well.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 23, 2011, 06:11:31 PM
I talked with a friend.He has the 360 version and a cable connexion and he is not a brainless fanboy.The netcode is bad period.NOT bad as in XII but bellow ssf4 ...there is a lot of room for improvement.If you like 3 to 5 max combos and lag enjoy it... but stop defending a bad netcode.Personally i hope playmore will patch it good this time so it will be at least sf4 standards.


I ate Andy's sC, f+A, HCF+K (break), QCF+P, QCF+P, DP from a 2 bar game. That's on day one of the game and the guy wasn't even that good overall.

No need to overdramatize things. 2 bars is bearable (suprisingly playable actually, often times) and 3 bars is very solid. 4 bars must be really good (haven't had a chance to try one yet) going by how good 3 is.

I put about 5 hours worth of play in yesterday, most of it was spent in online matches. Playing the PS3 version with a wired DSL connection. I didn't talk with a friend.


First i wanna say wassup to Dreamcancel, this is my first post here. shoutouts to the admin as i certainly know a few of them irl. thx for watchin the stream.

i gotta say dude reading your post...i gotta say no, just no man. if people post thinks like that, SNKP/atlus will think they have good netcode when its really, really not the case. Plus you mentioned you are playing on PS3/DSL..that's already problems right there in the bag so I'm assuming you are not familiar with how input delay works. I most likely have a better connection than you by a factor of 10x over, and its still not acceptable for matches outside of 4 bar. I know I'm new to the game, but im very lag sensitive, and can tell input delay right away. practiced in training mode for hours to get used to the feel of the game offline before i jumped in and saw how it was.

to put it into perspective, my connect is good enough that i can stream and it will not affect the quality of netplay at all due to good ping times and symmetrical upstream.

It's not overdramatized dude, if kof13 doesnt get a patch i cant really see ppl playin on it. its not even sf4 quality. The only good connections I had were with ShinOni (another FiOS user, so fiber optic x fiber optic,) wolfkrone (recently got the best internet possible in his area, NY to detroit, and a few other 4 bar connecitons randomly in ranked. 3 bar is shit most of the time, i have gotten a few playable 3 bar connections but its very rare. you can see it in my stream archive, i have extreme difficulty quickrising on 3bars and the delay is inconsistent (due to netcode being input delay not GGPO rollback based.) i know im not 100% familiar with quickrise timing since im new, but ive played older kof's plenty, so im pretty sure i know how to quickrise. lol on 4 bar with shinoni it worked fine.

given the fact that my connection is WAY above average in the US, its def going to be worse experience for most people when they get their hands on it.

to shinfist: the stream is not displaying the game at a perfect framerate. It's on 30fps right now and 13 is a 60fps game right? so that might explain the issue of lag even if offline mode while watching me play. of course its not lagging for me offline though but it def might appear that way to you on the stream.

anyway wassup peeps


No matter what you believe about your ping times or your connection's performance when you stream stuff, it does affect it, I've reda lots of people here and on chat that played with 3 bars saying that the delay is little if not almost unnoticeable, that 2 is when things start to get uglier. Besides, bandwidth speed doesn't mean anything, it's the quantity of routing jumps, your ping time to the other person, and your connection's stability what determines the resulting lag or delay. What you do on your post is just confirm that delay gets worse than it should be when you stream up stuff even on 3 bars.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 23, 2011, 06:16:14 PM
@Sabin

Like you said i think a lot of people here got used to playing with lag. I did't expected playmore to get it right but at least let's point out what are the problems to them so they can fix it. Saying it's playable doesn't help things at all.And there are a lot of people like myself that would like to travel but i have no one here to practice with except going online.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 23, 2011, 06:17:42 PM
Quote
No matter what you believe about your ping times or your connection's performance when you stream stuff, it does affect it, I've reda lots of people here and on chat that played with 3 bars saying that the delay is little if not almost unnoticeable, that 2 is when things start to get uglier. Besides, bandwidth speed doesn't mean anything, it's the quantity of routing jumps, your ping time to the other person, and your connection's stability what determines the resulting lag or delay. What do you on your post is just confirm that delay gets worse than it should be when you stream up stuff even on 3 bars.

I understand this is the case for most connections. Not for symmetrical fiber optics though. I have tested this personally myself at Sp00ky's house on his internet (he has something like 30mb down 8 mb up) and ive played a netplay match (in ssf4) w/ stream off, then turned stream on and it felt like a layer of lag. so in that aspect i do agree. However, symmetrical fiber connections throw all that out the window. I mean I can even show you ping tests to show you how my connection is not really affected while streaming at all. for most people it will. But again, when I'm streaming, I'm not even using 1/10th of my upload speed. I have 37 mbit upload, not even using 2mbit for streaming. I've also done the same tests at home (playing matches with good connection, then switching to stream) and there isnt a lag hit at all. unless you play on fiber optic yourself it's hard to understand but in most cases (not on fiber optics) i agree with you competely dude.

also if people are saying 3bar = feel no lag, im extremely suspect of that. the game has input delay netcode. not rollback like ggpo so any lag spike will affect inputs immediately, and is variable

regardless of what you said, like i said before, people who also have fiber optics have also been saying the online isnt all that great (and they arent streaming)

and yes, i do understand ping time is what is important, not the connection speed. my point of posting my speedtest was to show you guys that my connection is extremely stable, barely drops packets if ever, and i get close to 100% of my speeds all the time. done plenty of traceroutes to people to test ping times, its not like i dont know what's up dude. You should give me a little bit more credit here since i've been involved in streaming for 2+ years now and understand well how streaming can affect netpay =)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 23, 2011, 06:31:02 PM
After it there's the little fact that most people report the delay on 3 bars ranging from hardly noticeable, to just a few. I was reading some impressions on chat yesterday and from what I could realize, the worst experience seemed to be one guy saying it was like MVC3's delay with 3 bars, which is little, a step below ssf4, putting aside all the shit people have thrown over MVC3's netcode, but it is little. Perhaps the guy was playing with someone that had a ping that was touching the ping limit of the 3rd bar. Most people agreed it was little, little delay.

If you guys reporting higher delays want to be credible, you should post ping times of and videos playing with the same person.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Diavle on November 23, 2011, 06:36:04 PM
@Sabin

Like you said i think a lot of people here got used to playing with lag. I did't expected playmore to get it right but at least let's point out what are the problems to them so they can fix it. Saying it's playable doesn't help things at all. And there are a lot of people like myself that would like to travel but i have no one here to practice with except going online.

It does imo, if someone says that, it, to me, means that the game works well enough to be fun. It works well enough to do regular, DC and supercancel combos. Its not amazing by any means and has problems but it is by no means unplayable or terrible.

Sabin above is complaining about simple things like not being able to quick rise on a 3 bar connection. I played a few 2 bar matches today in the morning (didn't come across any 3 or 4) and had no problem quick rising at all (like, zero issues). I did combos, specials (ex and normal), supers and supercancels at will. And this is me with my crap pad skills.

In a nutshell, this gets to me because I was in the camp that was going to wait for netcode impressions. If I had in fact gone that route then I would be in your shoes and missing this amazing game.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 23, 2011, 06:40:32 PM
it would be a whole lot easier to post ping times if they included the ping in the game dude
requires me to ask the other gamer for his IP lol and then traceroute. sick of the bars crap in FG's.

if you want to see videos though, i do have them
http://www.twitch.tv/nycfurby/b/300714897 (http://www.twitch.tv/nycfurby/b/300714897) check out halfway thru the video and part 3 for some netplay

So far the consensus I've been seeing online:
People with crap internet (on ps3) saying they cant feel delay
people with amazing connections saying online is shit
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: sibarraz on November 23, 2011, 06:46:23 PM
The netcode is not good honestly, basically there's the big problem that more that being incredible bad like KOF XIII is just a netcode which never let you know for sure if you had a good connection against someone or not, for example, with 2 bars I had some fine matches and with 3 no, so finally is pointless to try to defend it since it will be determined by who you had to play, where you live, and your connection, at least for random matches I will not recommend it, so there is not point on try to defend it honestly

Is not ''I'm going to cancel my preorder fuck you SNKP'' bad, but is dissapointing since could have been better considering how much could have been sacrificed

At least like someone said, I never would had expected to make big combos with it, you must be a moron if you think that this could have been posible, blazblue is another tale since the game was thought to be played online, that's why there are tons of things that could be pulled, but in a game like kof with tons of combos that are really specific, is really hard to do.

Sibarrez, even if it wasn't specifically directed at anyone you should know better. -Kane317
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 23, 2011, 06:49:48 PM
@Diavle

I said i wanted to travel.I cannot do decent practice with laggy online = why should i go to a turney with 0 practice and waste money and time for nothing?.I want that fix.If you play only to have fun .. have fun.But i want to take this game a bit serious.I hope atlus does something about this because they promised better netcode than sf4.... which is not right now.

@nilcam
are moderators suppose to call the other gentlemen here on the forums morons? ... or to be an example for people like myself?!

It's been handled.  -Kane317
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 23, 2011, 06:50:11 PM
After reading your reactions in this thread i think i wil do another kof stream again in the future to further test the netcode. the game is hella fun and i wouldnt not buy it based on subpar netcode since the game is good but i definitely want to get to the bottom of the netcode issue. better to play ppl that know what theyre doing than randoms online even if they have good connection so i can see it for myself

ill probably make a thread or hit up some of the dreamcancel guys to see if i can set it up for sure.
but yeah def check out the stream archive i think my reactions are pretty telling for a ot of issues that people will run into online play before they get the game in their hands
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 23, 2011, 06:51:48 PM
It isn't pointless to defend it because when there's an unstable state of connection between the two players it's the players fault, the netcode's a certain way and that's how it is, if it runs smooth and with little delay or slow as fuck and delayed as hell, that's how it is. But variations are due to people, not the netcode. As good as it can be, that's how the netcode is.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: ZenTzen on November 23, 2011, 06:57:54 PM
Has anyone played the game with the 360 or ps3 in DMZ mode?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 23, 2011, 06:58:28 PM
After reading your reactions in this thread i think i wil do another kof stream again in the future to further test the netcode. the game is hella fun and i wouldnt not buy it based on subpar netcode since the game is good but i definitely want to get to the bottom of the netcode issue. better to play ppl that know what theyre doing than randoms online even if they have good connection so i can see it for myself

ill probably make a thread or hit up some of the dreamcancel guys to see if i can set it up for sure.
but yeah def check out the stream archive i think my reactions are pretty telling for a ot of issues that people will run into online play before they get the game in their hands

I will.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 23, 2011, 07:01:33 PM
The problem is that, you can make up for meh netcode or the variety of bad connections by making it so people can always find the best connections that are possible.

With XIII, you can't trust that ability and that only goes to make things a lot worse.

Netcode's only half the battle.  If you can't FIND the optimal connections in order to have a match run well, then it don't matter if it's KOF02UM all the way to GGPO netcode, the game will run shitty half the time and there's nothing you can do about it.  And if the game DOES have a shitty netcode, then the online might as well be nonexistent.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 23, 2011, 07:09:01 PM
The problem is that, you can make up for meh netcode or the variety of bad connections by making it so people can always find the best connections that are possible.

With XIII, you can't trust that ability and that only goes to make things a lot worse.

Netcode's only half the battle.  If you can't FIND the optimal connections in order to have a match run well, then it don't matter if it's KOF02UM all the way to GGPO netcode, the game will run shitty half the time and there's nothing you can do about it.  And if the game DOES have a shitty netcode, then the online might as well be nonexistent.

this is why ggpo netcode is so good. can have playable connections to other countries with smoothing. used to play NY to Japan for super turbo (220ms ping), smoothing 1 or 2, far more playable than input delay netcode which is what kof13 is

input delay netcode makes their shitty connection that much more apparent, which means you have to stay within a reasonable distance relative to your region to even have good matches assuming both you and your opponent have strong connections, and have everything configured properly
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Grokbu on November 23, 2011, 07:09:26 PM
Thanks for everyone's input, it's really appreciated.

I hope I'll get this game soon, since all these different opinions about the netcode is starting to drive me insane.

I have a couple of guys here in Sweden that I usually have good matches with in GGPO/BB. I'll see how our matches turn out when we get the game.

Long combos aren't really the main problem for me with lag. It's reacting to stuff, and with all the hopping of KOF, lots of delay will suck big time (it always does though).

I hope that the amount of delay in our matches will be less than in MVC3 at least...
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 23, 2011, 07:15:20 PM
The problem is that, you can make up for meh netcode or the variety of bad connections by making it so people can always find the best connections that are possible.

With XIII, you can't trust that ability and that only goes to make things a lot worse.

Netcode's only half the battle.  If you can't FIND the optimal connections in order to have a match run well, then it don't matter if it's KOF02UM all the way to GGPO netcode, the game will run shitty half the time and there's nothing you can do about it.  And if the game DOES have a shitty netcode, then the online might as well be nonexistent.

this is why ggpo netcode is so good. can have playable connections to other countries with smoothing. used to play NY to Japan for super turbo (220ms ping), smoothing 1 or 2, far more playable than input delay netcode which is what kof13 is

input delay netcode makes their shitty connection that much more apparent, which means you have to stay within a reasonable distance relative to your region to even have good matches assuming both you and your opponent have strong connections, and have everything configured properly

I'm aware of that Art, as I play on GGPO every so often (less so these days because I got my laptop and I don't feel like turning on my desktop computer for the SOLE purpose of playing on GGPO).  The problem is I have absolutely no faith in any company to actually implement GGPO well enough to make that a reality.

My biggest worry in all of this is that I think that honestly, half the people who will play this game will proclaim the netcode as good JUST because it's not a Capcom game.

I mean, look at the comparison to the UMvC3 Netcode and its reactions.  Took NO time for people to call it shitty and proclaim it the worst thing ever, but with this game, people want to see something that isn't there.

The fact that the ONLY nice thing I can say about the game's netcode is that it's not as bad as 02UM is not a good thing at all.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DeFrank on November 23, 2011, 07:21:05 PM
I know I'm new to the game, but im very lag sensitive, and can tell input delay right away. practiced in training mode for hours to get used to the feel of the game offline before i jumped in and saw how it was.

It's not overdramatized dude, if kof13 doesnt get a patch i cant really see ppl playin on it. its not even sf4 quality.... a few other 4 bar connecitons randomly in ranked. 3 bar is shit most of the time, i have gotten a few playable 3 bar connections but its very rare.

This pretty much echoes my experience thus far with online. I'm staying optimistic for now that SNK will get things worked out but if it continues for too long it'll get ebayed. There's only about 2 people locally that will even consider playing it and they are horrrrible. :/ So their interest in waning pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sharnt on November 23, 2011, 07:42:21 PM
this is why ggpo netcode is so good. can have playable connections to other countries with smoothing. used to play NY to Japan for super turbo (220ms ping), smoothing 1 or 2, far more playable than input delay netcode which is what kof13 is
I played MOTW a lot on GGPO and i can't bear connections over 70-80ms of ping, how can you call this playable?
Btw the input lag isn't the same kind of technologies as SF4? Wasn't it good enough to be playable online?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 23, 2011, 07:44:18 PM
this is why ggpo netcode is so good. can have playable connections to other countries with smoothing. used to play NY to Japan for super turbo (220ms ping), smoothing 1 or 2, far more playable than input delay netcode which is what kof13 is
I played MOTW a lot on GGPO and i can't bear connections over 70-80ms of ping, how can you call this playable?
Btw the input lag isn't the same kind of technologies as SF4? Wasn't it good enough to be playable online?

SF4 was bare minimum of playability, and that was only due to the speed of the game itself, and the fact that it was slightly more reliable to actually find good connections.

Anything below that, which as of now XIII is, is unacceptable.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 23, 2011, 07:51:12 PM
SSF4 gives something close to 4 or 5 frames of delay with 140-150ms, something pretty good. I'm supposing this game has a similar behavior.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: arstal on November 23, 2011, 07:51:40 PM
Honestly, I'm disappointed in the netcode, but not so disappointed as to reject the game, at least for now.
I like the game despite feeling some lag while playing 3 bars.  

SNK did better, but they should have done a lot better.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 23, 2011, 07:55:08 PM
this is why ggpo netcode is so good. can have playable connections to other countries with smoothing. used to play NY to Japan for super turbo (220ms ping), smoothing 1 or 2, far more playable than input delay netcode which is what kof13 is
I played MOTW a lot on GGPO and i can't bear connections over 70-80ms of ping, how can you call this playable?
Btw the input lag isn't the same kind of technologies as SF4? Wasn't it good enough to be playable online?

when i say playable i dont mean offline quality. enough to learn per se and of course it rolls back but its def acceptable. i even have od ass matches of me playing top japanese payers on ST (in GGPO) and they are all landing their 1f links no problem and reversal timing without a problem.

ST - Sabin (USA) v Kuro Not Komoda (JPN) - GGPO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ355rOmQt4#)
brief example of a old st match from 2008-2009? you cant see the delay and i was playing on pad at the time but theres no way he can land as many 1f links as he did if the netcode was truly that shitty.

my point is, with input delay netcode (which is what 13 has) that these kind of matches would never be possible at all.

KOF13 has the same tech as sf4 when it comes to input delay but right now it's not on par with SF4's. It's barely acceptable for most people
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 23, 2011, 07:57:42 PM
As always, nothing better than to do things yourself. I will have the game by December 7.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 23, 2011, 07:59:52 PM
Honestly, I'm disappointed in the netcode, but not so disappointed as to reject the game, at least for now.
I like the game despite feeling some lag while playing 3 bars.  

SNK did better, but they should have done a lot better.


And while most of us won't abandon the game, I did warn SNKP, they had to do a LOT better to stay alive.  Another meh netcode, and another KOF probably won't happen or at least wouldn't be embraced anymore.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 23, 2011, 08:02:49 PM
Won't happen? Nah, the game's marvelous and I have people to play it face to face.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: shinefist on November 23, 2011, 08:10:39 PM
Sabin comes in lol

Oh right, thanks for explaining to me.

Cheers mate.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: shinefist on November 23, 2011, 08:18:06 PM
I'm in that same boat man, i need a decent online experience to get praccy in, then i can go travel to events. Online is essential

@Diavle

I said i wanted to travel.I cannot do decent practice with laggy online = why should i go to a turney with 0 practice and waste money and time for nothing?.I want that fix.If you play only to have fun .. have fun.But i want to take this game a bit serious.I hope atlus does something about this because they promised better netcode than sf4.... which is not right now.



Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: StickyStaines on November 23, 2011, 08:23:36 PM
Won't happen? Nah, the game's marvelous and I have people to play it face to face.

Sadly, 'you' are not 'the majority'. The core is great sure and that's awesome if you actually have the option of playing locally. However, not everyone has that option; especially on a consistent basis. So people turn to online to get their fix and if that isn't up to scratch, then it won't be long before people just shelve the game.

I shelved MK9 and MVC3 because of bad online personally and my decision on whether to buy KOF13 is dependant on the netcode.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 23, 2011, 08:41:09 PM
Lol at some talking about servers not being up yet.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: UltraChingon on November 23, 2011, 08:44:06 PM
so just did some testing with my friend. WELL my ps3 wireless card is well not working well. My brother has a ps3 slim and the wireless connection is flawless (2 bar connections are playable :D), mine in the other hand cant even hit 1.0mb (100% connection strength to my router all ports open Etc.) so wen i tested with my friend who lives 2 miles away we had 3 bars and some lag. Explains alot since its a first generation ps3 and the wireless has just been dying on it for a while (cant even watch netflix in HD).

Found a very long Ethernet cable... and man i just got done playing 2bar and 1bar games and they were real good o_o. The input lag vanished as i played the match, and then it did not have to synchronize after the first character KO. Now i have to make some holes in my house to make this work >.>
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 23, 2011, 08:56:41 PM
Wireless + online = guaranteed lag :(
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Kane317 on November 23, 2011, 09:59:20 PM
Wireless + online = guaranteed lag :(

Welcome to Dream Cancel Sabin, I remember you from Evo '09 when Tokido came and played KOF '98UM with us.

Keep us informed with your tests so we can get to the bottom of the netcode.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Nocturnal on November 23, 2011, 10:00:38 PM
I still haven't tried online but I plan on doing a bunch of test on both versions once I get the PS3 version from Atlus. I wanted to thank Arturo for giving his opinion on the netcode. If you don't mind testing it with me Arturo on either 360/PS3 just let me know. I'm in Cali but I don't have Fios yet. I do have good net though as long as my family isn't playing while I play. I'm also farmiliar with all the good and bad netcodes out there. I'm not expecting it to be a perfect connection from CA to NY. I'm pretty sure there will be some sort of delay.

Edit: I'm going to be off this Friday so I plan on doing a bunch of test that day with different people from around the US/Japan.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: omegaryuji on November 23, 2011, 10:12:28 PM
Cool to see you around here, Art.  Thanks for the detailed review of the netcode.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: FataCon on November 23, 2011, 10:19:25 PM
Wireless + online = guaranteed lag :(

Welcome to Dream Cancel Sabin, I remember you from Evo '09 when Tokido came and played KOF '98UM with us.

Keep us informed with your tests so we can get to the bottom of the netcode.

Or, yknow, you could test with him, Kane. NY to SoCal seems like a fair test ;)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 23, 2011, 10:47:05 PM
Wireless + online = guaranteed lag :(

Welcome to Dream Cancel Sabin, I remember you from Evo '09 when Tokido came and played KOF '98UM with us.

Keep us informed with your tests so we can get to the bottom of the netcode.

Wassup man, yeah, I will definitely keep dreamcancel informed about updates with the netcode. next time i do a stream ill let yal know in advance so i can test with various connections with someone that might know what theyre doing lol. even if the connection is shitty, i want to see if its possible for them to adjust or adapt to the connection. Right now the good connections i have are with people that just got the game like me. KOF13 i have to say, the core game is really good im very impressed. Just technically demanding! But I like the fact that there are no comeback mechanics in this game for sure and feels like a hybrid HD 98/2k2.

Was wondering if dreamcancel had a twitter set up so i can link to it next time I do the stream?

Anyway, thx for the warm welcome. I think that KOF tourney was the last KOF tourney I entered at DG's request lol. been a while since i fucked with kof

Nocturnal: wassup dude. sure we can try no problem. Haunts was telling me early on that cross country was not really doable but sure we can try it. The fact that you said "if my fam isnt using the internet, its ok" is not a sign of great internet though. Get that fiber man! once u have a symmetrical connection even if family is using the internet it's extremely hard for them to affect your quality of matches (in my case, they would have to saturate my 5.4 MB download speed lol.

and yeah man i know you are well versed in netcodes, so you can see what im saying here, of course i wouldnt talk out of my ass before putting the netcode on blast for no reason.
I feel that if there is a problem its def good to complain as early as possible in hopes of a fix! Not expecting them to add rollback netcode but some optimization to the input delay netcode in 13 right now would be great and go a long way i think. saying its ok or acceptable will hurt the games viability in the long term i think since a lot of people have online or bust :(

still cant believe this game has no multiplayer lobbies..can't spec, which means outside of a tournament or a player personally streaming themselves you would be seeing too many random 13 streams which hurts the exposure of the game I think :( damn

Heh, I just watched the stream archive for a bit and the replay is smooth, watching my games when it gets choppy or slows down it's def lagging lol and not the stream archive itself. Maybe I'll do somethin fri or this weekend again to get a better test fo sho
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: desmond_kof on November 23, 2011, 10:49:11 PM
Welcome to DC, Sabin.

Okay, I'm playing on PSN on a comcast broadband connection with an outdated modem lol.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1608977877.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)

Last night Nilcam (Oklahoma) and I played for a few matches. That son of a gun kept throwin out Kensou's qcb p fireballs and King's venom strikes. I had trouble jumping over those sometimes. With Iori I had trouble doing cl.c to f+A to qcb b on block. The qcb b couldn't come out, lol. I thought something was wrong with me. But nah, it was the frigging delay.

Earlier I play against Reynald...lord have mercy that was unbearable. I couldn't do anything. No combos, couldn't block well, moves couldn't come out, it was stuttering, felt like KOFXII. Input delay through the roof...I personally felt that was unplayable. We had a yellow 3 bar connection.

After Reynald (socal), I played against a few green bars after setting up a player match. Those were more tolerable but I still feel the delay, so I had trouble punishing things and combos weren't coming out, so I played simple.

An hour later I play with devildigimon (a state next to mine, Wisconsin), and we have a green bar connection. That was playable as well but I had trouble doing Terry's df C into qcb A wayyy to many times. I also have trouble with ground teching and jumping over projectiles like when I was playing with Nilcam. There was as much stuttering or anything but the delay was still apparent, so I had to adjust.

Overall, I feel that SNKP should try to patch this and keep working on it. I'm not sure how many patches it will need for it to be on the level of AH3 or BB, but I hope it can get to that someday. But if they just leave it alone like how it is now...this game will not last long.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Terrastorm on November 23, 2011, 11:13:14 PM
I have a similar connection to desmond, so I guess the netcode isn't going to work for me. Can anyone relay this message to Atlus so they can relay it to SNKP?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 23, 2011, 11:19:09 PM
I have a similar connection to desmond, so I guess the netcode isn't going to work for me. Can anyone relay this message to Atlus so they can relay it to SNKP?
Ive been blowing it up on twitter constantly and people have been RT'ing my tweets about the netcode, so i would hope sooner or later it gets back to atlus/SNKP!
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: nilcam on November 23, 2011, 11:19:31 PM
For reference, here's my speed test:

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1609053768.png)

In my matches with Desmond at 2 bars, I couldn't get Trapshot>Surprise Rose to land at all.

And I was spamming him with fireballs!
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: steamwolf on November 23, 2011, 11:22:28 PM
Expressing our concerns about the netcode in a civil, professional, and informative manner to Atlus may be a good idea. I would also recommend if anyone is well-versed in Japanese, to do the same for SNKP. Make sure to provide facts like Sabin provided, and mention that it's not just "you" but the entire community is feeling this. I can say that I've seen other gaming communities contact much larger Japanese companies than Atlus or SNKP and managed to actually speak with the developers and express their concerns about the game series. Not just some PR guy but real developers/producers behind the series. It can be done! Hopefully we can try and push for this to happen to at least get some really good patches out and hopefully make this game SFIV quality netcode.

P.S. If anyone wants to know what series/company I speak of? Suikoden rpg series made by Konami. The guys over at Suikosource just contacted them and began really pushing their concerns and what not with the series and it's getting Konami's attention. While it's not the same exact situation, we got to make SNKP see we care and tell them how we feel.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: TrulyAmiracle on November 24, 2011, 01:04:45 AM
4 bars is pretty fun, barely any delay from my experience so far.

3 bars is playable but the delays are annoying against some characters coz u cant punish properly.

2 bars and lower is plain crap.


Seeing as this is the online thread i wanted to ask and maybe someone can give me an answer here, if you go to ranked>quick match and get paired with a 1 bar or someone you dont want to play is there no way to back out? it shows your profiles for a few seconds but it seems you cant do shit but accept no matter what.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: fiol on November 24, 2011, 01:36:40 AM
i m in china and i tried online.
first, a patch already came out (6mb) xD
i played 2 matches with 2 ppl i dont know.. 1 line.. awful
i èlayed 10 matches with my bro (he is in china too), 2 line , the game was playable (at least the combos worked for the most time) but nothing to really scream about.. i still have to find a 3 lines connection lol
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 24, 2011, 02:20:23 AM
I wonder what the little patch is for.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it might be to fix the usb adapters error.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: fiol on November 24, 2011, 02:50:08 AM
dunno, i dont need an adapter for my stick xD
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: LouisCipher on November 24, 2011, 03:38:40 AM
Got almost nothing but desyncs tonight. Played one guy, good connection, his name was I believe KimKPhwan, a Mexican dude judging by the flag in his avatar. It was actually pretty good. Got 2 sets in with him, then it desynced. And every person afterwards desynced. We'd get to the character select screen, synchronising message would pop up, 15-20 seconds later an opponent has left the match message would come up. Every time.

Hope this is patched
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: steamwolf on November 24, 2011, 03:40:28 AM
I'll have to keep this in mind. Haven't tried online yet. Btw, you are Eternal Blaze from SRK right? Welcome to DC! I played in one of your SSFIV tournaments I wanna say last year.

4 bars is pretty fun, barely any delay from my experience so far.

3 bars is playable but the delays are annoying against some characters coz u cant punish properly.

2 bars and lower is plain crap.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Diavle on November 24, 2011, 03:47:23 AM
Just played my first 4 bar match, got two matches in before the guy left. I felt in total control with miminal lag. Me and the pad clicked at about this time as well and I was able to pull of tons of combos too (unfortunately, I guess, he probably would have stayed if he won).

So yeah, 4 bars was really good.

Having played on all 4 types I would say the netcode overall is a pretty good starting point, with some additional polishing I definitely think it can shine nicely.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 24, 2011, 03:50:22 AM
Got almost nothing but desyncs tonight. Played one guy, good connection, his name was I believe KimKPhwan, a Mexican dude judging by the flag in his avatar. It was actually pretty good. Got 2 sets in with him, then it desynced. And every person afterwards desynced. We'd get to the character select screen, synchronising message would pop up, 15-20 seconds later an opponent has left the match message would come up. Every time.

Hope this is patched

Why are you directly supposing this has to do with how the game is coded, most people play without desyncs or disconnects.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: LouisCipher on November 24, 2011, 04:03:29 AM
The fact that it happened something like 10 times in a row with multiple people say's a lot, dude.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 24, 2011, 04:17:32 AM
The fact that it happened something like 10 times in a row with multiple people say's a lot, dude.

Yeah, about you, no offense.

As much as I dislike the netcode, desynchs haven't really happened for me at least.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: steamwolf on November 24, 2011, 04:22:55 AM
While it's very possible, like a couple others are saying, that it's just your connection...I've played you before over GGPO, Supercade, Arclive, and PSN and we've never desynced really. And the netcode for KoF XIII is kind of meh. So...logically, I'd say it's most likely KoF XIII. Just because some people aren't desyncing doesn't mean it can't happen with the way the netcode is designed :P

The fact that it happened something like 10 times in a row with multiple people say's a lot, dude.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: asociale on November 24, 2011, 04:42:17 AM
i m in china and i tried online.
first, a patch already came out (6mb) xD
i played 2 matches with 2 ppl i dont know.. 1 line.. awful
i èlayed 10 matches with my bro (he is in china too), 2 line , the game was playable (at least the combos worked for the most time) but nothing to really scream about.. i still have to find a 3 lines connection lol

As far as our location, we live 1200KM from each others...to me the online was good, well more than playable..unfortunately i played with that shitty PS3 controller (wasnt in the mood to plug my stick lol) and of course wasnt the same as the offline BUT i had fun...my bro did some pretty cancels combos (kyo,ralf,iori ex,takuma)...so i suppose 2 bars at least here in China is not that bad...next time bro..i ll use my stick lol

our  internet connection is a DSL (no wifi) 2MB

Before him i play a guy ..dont remember the bars or anything else so my test was just those 10matches against my bro..overall not that bad.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Kane317 on November 24, 2011, 05:01:01 AM
Was wondering if dreamcancel had a twitter set up so i can link to it next time I do the stream?

@dreamcancelsnk
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: LouisCipher on November 24, 2011, 05:33:16 AM
I never desynced with anyone on GGPO/Supercade or on 3SOE. So I don't know what to tell you guys.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 24, 2011, 05:44:01 AM
I do...weirdest isolated case ever.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: FreeRunner on November 24, 2011, 06:58:15 AM
I tried online yesterday and today.

Netcode needs alot of work. Maybe next week they will send a patch?

But as it stands now, we all know by now what will happen with this game if this isn't rectified soon.

Isn't there any way to get in contact with Atlus or SNKP?

I did have some ok games on it though, but the point still stands.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Kaori Manabe on November 24, 2011, 08:05:11 AM
2 bar : unplayable

3 bar: unplayable



Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: BioBooster on November 24, 2011, 08:38:46 AM
Hope and have a feeling that Atlus is watching this thread (sure they have their eyes on this as well as other forums) and that SNKP will make adjustments.

If any company is going to react to relevant feedback, I'm confident they will.

This is also my theory as to why there is no blog update yet. Hopefully they are are having dev team meetings around the netcode as we speak.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Rex Dart on November 24, 2011, 09:05:06 AM
I had my first 4 bar match tonight. Even though I do hope there's a patch to improve the netcode, I have to admit I was pretty impressed. It was almost identical to offline.

I celebrated with my first (successful) online HD combo.  :)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 24, 2011, 09:50:05 AM
Well playing with Xxenace today was a lot less of a pain than yesterday...and ironically it listed it as a 2 bar connection rather than the 3 bar connection today.

In other words, ignore the indicator outside of 1 bar because it's unreliable.

Oh and Art, if you want, I wouldn't mind playing a set with you, would like to see the connection from NYC to PA, plus I wouldn't mind seeing what you got.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 24, 2011, 09:52:02 AM
I'm planning to do another 13 netplay stream on friday after thanksgiving. Will post on here/ON and see whats good
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: SonicTempest on November 24, 2011, 10:14:35 AM
I had my first 4 bar match tonight. Even though I do hope there's a patch to improve the netcode, I have to admit I was pretty impressed. It was almost identical to offline.

I celebrated with my first (successful) online HD combo.  :)

Which reminds me, we need to try out our online connection at some point :p
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: LouisCipher on November 24, 2011, 10:15:55 AM
Had a set with RunningWild who lives an hour away from me. It was decent, but really hard to block on reaction. If you're walking in it's really hard to block a projectile on reaction.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Rex Dart on November 24, 2011, 10:27:05 AM
I had my first 4 bar match tonight. Even though I do hope there's a patch to improve the netcode, I have to admit I was pretty impressed. It was almost identical to offline.

I celebrated with my first (successful) online HD combo.  :)

Which reminds me, we need to try out our online connection at some point :p

I thought you were on PS3? If you have a 360, my GT is "Rex Dart 7".
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 24, 2011, 10:32:42 AM
@nilcam


I thought you guys had some contacts with Atlus since they came here before XIII was launched and asked for feedback.Still i am glad some people here came to their senses and stoped prasing playmore for no reason just because they have snk in front on their name.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Strifesterz0r on November 24, 2011, 11:09:38 AM
I tried online yesterday and today.

Netcode needs alot of work. Maybe next week they will send a patch?

But as it stands now, we all know by now what will happen with this game if this isn't rectified soon.

Isn't there any way to get in contact with Atlus or SNKP?

I did have some ok games on it though, but the point still stands.
Actually there is a way to contact them:
http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1546.0 (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1546.0)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Kaori Manabe on November 24, 2011, 11:43:57 AM
San Francisco to San Jose

Still barely playable

shits whack
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Nocturnal on November 24, 2011, 12:05:04 PM
I wish I could get Fios but my area doesn't have it yet. I only got Time Warner for now.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: solidshark on November 24, 2011, 01:34:29 PM
Someone mentioned a patch earlier, did everyone get that ? Did it do anything?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 24, 2011, 01:42:15 PM
It's for the version sold in Asia only, it must be to do something with Flame Iori.

Anyway I was thinking of something else to explain the differences in online experiences... perhaps people with NAT3 connection get worse delay, if you notice, this game doesn't allow spectator mode or lobbies because it needs to establish a very direct connection between players, and with this type of connections whether you have ports open or not always has a great impact on lag and delay, I know it from other certain programs to play online like kaillera p2p, so if you want to do a serious report see that:

1. You are playing on wired
2. There's absolutely nothing using your bandwidth while you play
3. Make sure the other person has absolutely nothing using up internet speed too
4. Make sure both of you have a very stable connection
5. Both should have NAT2 connection.
6. Ping each other on PC opening a cmd window and using the /ping command to know the exact ping quantity you have with the other person and know how that ping quantity is reflected on the game.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: thec0re3 on November 24, 2011, 02:24:43 PM
It's for the version sold in Asia only, it must be to do something with Flame Iori.

Anyway I was thinking of something else to explain the differences in online experiences... perhaps people with NAT3 connection get worse delay, if you notice, this game doesn't allow spectator mode or lobbies because it needs to establish a very direct connection between players, and with this type of connections whether you have ports open or not always has a great impact on lag and delay, I know it from other certain programs to play online like kaillera p2p, so if you want to do a serious report see that:

1. You are playing on wired
2. There's absolutely nothing using your bandwidth while you play
3. Make sure the other person has absolutely nothing using up internet speed too
4. Make sure both of you have a very stable connection
5. Both should have NAT2 connection.
6. Ping each other on PC opening a cmd window and using the /ping command to know the exact ping quantity you have with the other person and know how that ping quantity is reflected on the game.

It be wonderful if I could do ALL of that but its damn near impossible. The whole time I've been trying to get in matches, I've had another family member streaming video on a constant(and I do mean constant) basis.   Now, I've been playing UMVSC3 for a couple of days with the same conditions and the lag and input delays have been minimal in my opinion. 

The fact that I can't catch a decent connection in my own state(GA)with people who live within the same perimeter as me is an even bigger issue. Both people I've played on GGPO and usually within state I get a connection of 80ms or better. I've gotten decent connection with Barka Boy who is in st louis which is crazy and the fact is I'm still on a 2 bar connection even with him. So while the matches are much better then we've had on KOF2002UM, I've still experienced dropped connections(most likely due to the constant streaming) and the regular complaints.

Btw, what is a NAT2 connection exactly? Is that something that you can change on your router? I've tried doing the DMZ thing but that doesn't work with the xbox. I'll be going down to FL for thanksgiving might be on a better connection there. I'll run some tests there and continue to post my results.

At some point you can only do so much tweaking. Upgrading right now is out of the question so I hope that Atlus is willing to improve the netplay in the coming weeks cause its not good.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Spooty Whiteboy on November 24, 2011, 04:40:53 PM
NAT1 is straight wired connection.

NAT2 is wireless, but with open ports.

NAT3 is wireless, but with closed ports.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 24, 2011, 04:57:39 PM
From what I know:

NAT1 is Cable broadband wired
NAT2 is non Cable ADSL wired

I have all my ports open on DSL and I get NAT2.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Shiranui_ninja on November 24, 2011, 05:34:05 PM
My PS3 is connected to internet by cable and it has NAT2.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: SonicTempest on November 24, 2011, 05:54:52 PM
The experience has been highly variable for me to be honest. I've had 2-bar matches that were better than 3-bar matches, and two separate matches I had with people in NorCal were quite different in terms of connection quality. On top of that one of those NorCal matches was actually better than a match I had with a friend of mine who literally lives fifteen minutes away from me. Whether you're on wired or wireless obviously makes a difference in some cases (as was the case with my friend - it was unplayable when he was on Wi-fi but after he switched to a LAN cable it was far more tolerable) but there seem to be a lot of other factors (some of which aren't even under your control!) that contribute to your connection quality, and the netcode isn't very resilient to them.

Rex Dart: I actually have both versions of the game :) I've sent you an XBL friend request.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: shinefist on November 24, 2011, 06:14:31 PM
Ok got the game, great game apart from the online which is abit laggy on most matches for me. I must admit, the game system even off line needs time to get used too. Characters cD moves are very slow for some characters like terry, so when you have abit of lag it exagerates the lag more so.

I need more time with the basics definately, even my kyo's hop B went over the opponents head in some matches, its like starting from scratch. Hopefully they can tweak the net code abit.

I had one match that was a 3 bar and it worked better than other 3 bars but the guy quit on me.

They need to fix parts of the game anyway, example you cannot back out of a game if the latency is a 1 bar, you have to fight them which sucks.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: steamwolf on November 24, 2011, 07:24:17 PM
I do...weirdest isolated case ever.

I have no idea what to tell you then. GGPO drops games sometimes but usually never desyncs. If you're desyncing on GGPO, you might not have the same rom version as your opponent or your ports aren't forwarded.

As for XIII it's not good netcode. It's not BAD. It's merely tolerable in the same way the fly buzzing around your head is tolerable vs the bee trying to sting you. I have played Louis a lot and if he's having these issues and everyone all ready knows the netcode is bad? This is not a weird isolated case. This just means the netcode is exactly what everyone says it is. Just because not everybody is constantly desyncing doesn't mean it's not the netcode failing. Everyone try to remember it IS using GSS, the SAME garbage from XII.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: MUSOLINI on November 24, 2011, 08:54:05 PM
guys i feel lag with even ssf4 on a 70mb dl sp connection playing other people in the netherlands who also have at least 30 to 40mb dl sp that live less than 100 miles away from me. going by what ive read so far, the game might be unplayable for me without a patch. im like super lag sensetive, i go crazy over 2 frames of difference just by using different tv set ups. if what people are saying is true, people need to bitch and moan all they can to snkp. as good as the ssf4 netcode is (way better than 3soe ggpo bs) it still sucked. if 13 isn't even on par with 4's, it straight up sucks ass, fact. i love snk and kof more than anybody, but people should not praise fuck ups no matter what. so far from what im reading, it seems they really fucked up big time. in the netcode department that is (and no Yamazaki, tsk tsk).
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 24, 2011, 09:15:11 PM
Wow, this is a new feeling for me.  Pride in Musolini. 
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 24, 2011, 09:20:50 PM
You guys can express your disagreement without royally shitting over the game's name, creating bad fame for it's netcode. Complain but don't exaggerate with your negativity.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 24, 2011, 09:25:12 PM
You guys can express your disagreement without royally shitting over the game's name, creating bad fame for it's netcode. Complain but don't exaggerate with your negativity.

Exaggeration breeds change.  If we shortsell how bad the netcode is, they won't do anything to fix it, or won't do enough.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 24, 2011, 09:46:57 PM
You guys can express your disagreement without royally shitting over the game's name, creating bad fame for it's netcode. Complain but don't exaggerate with your negativity.

Exaggeration breeds change.  If we shortsell how bad the netcode is, they won't do anything to fix it, or won't do enough.

Exaggerating never does any good. Say it in a proper way and they will take you more seriously.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 24, 2011, 09:51:06 PM
You guys can express your disagreement without royally shitting over the game's name, creating bad fame for it's netcode. Complain but don't exaggerate with your negativity.

Exaggeration breeds change.  If we shortsell how bad the netcode is, they won't do anything to fix it, or won't do enough.

Exaggerating never does any good. Say it in a proper way and they will take you more seriously.

You can exaggerate while speaking coherently.  Politicians do it all the time.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on November 24, 2011, 10:04:04 PM
You can exaggerate while speaking coherently.  Politicians do it all the time.

But they get money for doing so, we don't. lol

But what pablofsi says is true, as long as we give all the information we can provide to SNKP the better, for example:


If we give SNKP all this info, then they can do a proper fix, because if we all say "It's Laggy! at 2 bars/3bars" then that isn't much for the developer to work on.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 24, 2011, 11:30:06 PM
You guys can express your disagreement without royally shitting over the game's name, creating bad fame for it's netcode. Complain but don't exaggerate with your negativity.

Umm the netcode deserves to be trashed on. Game is great otherwise.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 24, 2011, 11:34:02 PM
You guys can express your disagreement without royally shitting over the game's name, creating bad fame for it's netcode. Complain but don't exaggerate with your negativity.

Umm the netcode deserves to be trashed on. Game is great otherwise.

Which has to be shown at NEC to get people to really push this game.  Which reminds me, you entering the XIII tourney at NEC?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: FataCon on November 24, 2011, 11:36:41 PM
Sabin is right. There is nothing wrong with honesty about a game's netcode. The more you push an issue aside, the less likely it is to be addressed either now or in future installments. I can't speak for others since I hardly go on (and the netplay experience has been bad for me also), but the majority for now seem to state that the netplay experience is unsatisfactory. This, of course, does not discredit KOF13 for being a great game regardless, and I don't think anyone is stating that.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: fiol on November 25, 2011, 01:57:18 AM
I managed to play some games yesterday... 1 bar is awful..
then i got some 2 bars matches... some were really bad , too much delayed, other were pretty smooth.
luckily i found a chinese and i got really smooth matches both with 2 and 3 bars... looked like offline to me, i managed to pull out everything i wanted.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 25, 2011, 02:47:58 AM
People here need to learn to deal with it and do something..... and for the love of god and jesus and zeus stop defending this trash of a netcode!

I do not know if the people that said they had a good experience with the netcode have played other games like AH3, BB , UMVC3 or even SSF4(i have a wired decent connexion and i have great experiences online with those titles).XIII's netcode is way below those games and lastly atlus and playmore promised a better than SSF4 netcode - or they were just trolling?
In 2 to 3 months this game will be dead because of SFXT and SC5 which i have no doubt they will have a good netcode.
I will never buy playmore or atlus releases if they don't fix this mess
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: arstal on November 25, 2011, 02:53:12 AM
Namco hasn't put out a good netcode yet this gen, and I suspect we'll just get a SF4-quality effort this time with SC5.

That said, 3d games are more lag-friendly then 2d.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 25, 2011, 03:22:58 AM
People here need to learn to deal with it and do something..... and for the love of god and jesus and zeus stop defending this trash of a netcode!

I do not know if the people that said they had a good experience with the netcode have played other games like AH3, BB , UMVC3 or even SSF4(i have a wired decent connexion and i have great experiences online with those titles).XIII's netcode is way below those games and lastly atlus and playmore promised a better than SSF4 netcode - or they were just trolling?
In 2 to 3 months this game will be dead because of SFXT and SC5 which i have no doubt they will have a good netcode.
I will never buy playmore or atlus releases if they don't fix this mess

LOL, you cannot be serious with that post.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 25, 2011, 04:41:23 AM
Just the fact that some people report that they have been able to have 3 and even 2 bar games with very little to ok delay means that the game is capable of that. Everything beyond that line of "good" is the player's fault.

It's like people that don't know anything about optimizing their connections to not have problems online bitching about ggpo games being too choppy, if you don't know when it starts to get choppy, or you are streaming and your connection doesn't allow you to not suffer an effect by doing that, it's your problem, but the game should always run smooth as long as you are within the ping limits with the person you play with to prevent it.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: LouisCipher on November 25, 2011, 04:44:40 AM
Okay, I did upgrade my internet to this: http://www.speedtest.net/result/1611249416.png (http://www.speedtest.net/result/1611249416.png)

The big difference is in upload speed which was 250kbs previously.

Had a decent time believe it or not. Found I think 3-4 green connections tonight, they were pretty good. Only thing is that I wasn't able to DC into Clark's Grab Super after an EX SAB, but this might've been an execution error.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: nilcam on November 25, 2011, 07:23:34 AM
Remember that it's more about latency than speed when upgrading.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: steamwolf on November 25, 2011, 09:32:25 AM
Namco has created a new 3D arcade DBZ fighting game that will utilize GGPO for it's home console releases. So they're using good netcode in a new fighting game. It's not Tekken or SCV, but they're the first company to take GGPO to a more serious level than the others. There's also a decent number of titles supposedly using GGPO that haven't been revealed yet/shown to use it.

Namco hasn't put out a good netcode yet this gen, and I suspect we'll just get a SF4-quality effort this time with SC5.

That said, 3d games are more lag-friendly then 2d.

Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 25, 2011, 09:39:37 AM
Namco has created a new 3D arcade DBZ fighting game that will utilize GGPO for it's home console releases. So they're using good netcode in a new fighting game. It's not Tekken or SCV, but they're the first company to take GGPO to a more serious level than the others. There's also a decent number of titles supposedly using GGPO that haven't been revealed yet/shown to use it.

Namco hasn't put out a good netcode yet this gen, and I suspect we'll just get a SF4-quality effort this time with SC5.

That said, 3d games are more lag-friendly then 2d.


I thought that Namco wasn't releasing that DBZ game for home consoles.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: MUSOLINI on November 25, 2011, 04:30:38 PM
still no news from snkp bout that netcode? what i dont get is why the fuck didn't they use rollback in the first place. also wrf they doing with gss? somebody swnd a copy of the latest BB game to show them how an almost competent netcode looks compared to the utter crap they used. i still can't get over the fact this bs isn't even on ssf4 level, that shits just straight up gay.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: steamwolf on November 25, 2011, 08:33:29 PM
I've said it before, I'll say it again as I will probably end up saying it forever now.

There is absolutely no way to add GGPO onto a game engine if the engine cannot support it. When building a video game, one must create a gaming engine. It's exactly as it sounds, like a car engine. It makes the car move. You tack things onto the engine when you want to add things into your game. With a software engine like a video game, there is only so much room to work with and things you can add to it. Now think about everything going on in current gen fighting games. Every possible thing you can do in KoF XII. This is allowed by the game engine. When SNKPlaymore built this engine, they did so with certain things in mind. They built it to be able to handle the gameplay mechanics and what not for KoF XII (Yes I said XII as in 12). They took into account wanting online play for their home console releases of KoF XII and with that in mind, they allowed a certain amount of room within the game engine for a specific netcode. This being GSS. Now after the failure of XII, they tweaked everything inside the game engine around to create XIII. Japanese companies more often than not, build their own game engines when constructing a game. However, this would cost a very large amount of money to do for EVERY SINGLE TITLE. As such, what do you think happens? The game engine is recycled. So the same game engine is being used in KoF XIII as XII. This is probably because when designing the new sprites and engine, they probably did so with a long-term plan in mind. Basically, because SNKP did not take into account good netplay, it was impossible for them to use anything much different than GSS due to that is what the game engine was designed around to use. There's no more room in the engine for GGPO. They goofed.

Before anyone says it: GAMEPLAY MECHANICS ARE NOT THE SAME THING AS A GAME ENGINE. PLEASE DO NOT TRY AND TELL ME XII AND XIII HAVE DIFFERENT ENGINES BASED ON THAT! THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW IS TO OPEN UP SAID GAME WITH THE SOURCE CODE AND TAKE A LOOK INSIDE

I had the above issue months back with different game around here, so forgive me if anyone takes offense to it. It's just the sad truth. Looking at the two games, and based on the lack of funding XII brought them, it seems most likely they had no choice but to use the same engine they had planned to do so. A game engine can allow people to do virtually anything so tweaking gameplay mechanics to make XII play like XIII is totally possible as well as gameplay balancing. But tacking on a completely new, process heavy, netcode? Not possible without rebuilding the engine and that is a LOT of money. Probably costs the most out of everything when it comes to game design, especially if you want it to do something complex like use GGPO (which is something Japanese developers have little to no experience in coding with). The problems plaguing KoF XIII is the same reason SSFIV: AE, UMvC3, etc don't use GGPO. It's too little too late without building the game from the ground up now.

The best thing for all of us to do in the entire FGC, is let these companies know and hound them over and over that WE WANT GGPO. You have to keep telling them so they will put it in the next game they build. As it stands, the Japanese industry does not take online serious. According to Seth Killian, Capcom LITERALLY thinks as community manager, he is not telling them what is really important to Americans. They flat out do not believe him about GGPO. The American office does, but the Japanese developers do not. This is Japanese mentality on online gaming when it comes to fighters. They look at it from offline/arcade experience with online being a fun little casual thing. That is how they see it. They literally do not think the rest of the world cares so much about it. They also do not fathom just how large countries like the USA are, or how our internet is. So when they put GSS in, they think "It'll be okay" because they all have the best internet in the world and their country is about the size of the American east coast. Granted, all this is based on knowledge about Capcom but this is also just how the Japanese industry thinks. At the end of the day, they think about making games for Japan first. The only way to convince them is to tell them otherwise that "Hey, we REALLY want this it will make us buy your games more and tell others to!" They don't think it will make a difference in sales.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: thec0re3 on November 25, 2011, 09:15:16 PM
I'm no expert but how is it that the previous engines,all of them built differently, can run through GGPO with no problem? Isn't it more impart due to the system in which there running on? Like the fact that GGPO and other places like it run on FBA.

Lets just say in the future, we get an xbox360 emulator and they offer netplay doesn't it work the same way in theory? Like I said I honestly don't no how the GGPO code works but I tend to hear people tell me how everything isn't possible and then one day I look up and it is. I understand from a financial and production standpoint it may not be feasible, maybe japanese companies don't understand how important netcode is to game sales but I doubt that. 

I'm new to the whole game creation seen. I'm actually going to school for game art but I haven't really delved deep into game engines as yet. This month will be my second time working in one. Now if today's game engines are different then the one's from yester year and would never allow the type of things that GGPO and other emulators can do without those things being built in from day one then I see where your coming from but a lot of times it seems like its just an excuse not to try its all theory until someone actually does it and says its not possible.  

Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Reiki.Kito on November 25, 2011, 09:18:05 PM
I'm no expert but how is it that the previous engines,all of them built differently, can run through GGPO with no problem? Isn't it more impart due to the system in which there running on? Like the fact that GGPO and other places like it run on FBA.

Lets just say in the future, we get an xbox360 emulator and they offer netplay doesn't it work the same way in theory? Like I said I honestly don't no how the GGPO code works but I tend to hear people tell me how everything isn't possible and then one day I look up and it is.

I'm new to the whole game creation seen. I'm actually going to school so for game art but I haven't really delved deep into game engines as yet. This month will be my second time working in one. Now if today's game engines are different then the one from yester year and would never allow the type of things that GGPO and other emulators can do then I see where your coming from but a lot of times it seems like its an excuse. 



Because the game is rendered in 2D, not 3D. 3D games don't work on GGPO.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: arstal on November 25, 2011, 09:24:59 PM
Japan does have an arcade fighter (DBZ game I think) which runs on GGPO.

I think the real bottleneck is console RAM for GGPO on console, though Skullgirls makes me wonder with its 3 on 3 and lots of animation.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: kofrookie on November 25, 2011, 09:26:49 PM
I don't understand the hyperbole with the netcode complaints.  I play 2002 on GGPO all the time so I have good benchmark of what's good and what's not good.  Is 13's netcode GGPO?  No.  Is it bad?  No!  I'm in NB Canada and I play a guy in Texas.  We're both on wired broadband and like 3000 miles apart and ping about 100-120 ms from each other.  We get a two bar connection and the games are super playable.  There is a tiny bit of delay but it's nothing like 2002UM.  It's as close to GGPO as non-rollback netcode could be.  I can do combos just fine, and not just little bread and butters but true HD combos.  3 bar connections are even better.

Yes, occasionally I play people with shitty connections where the delay is huge.  I send them a message asking if they're on wireless and usually they are.  Others are probably playing without opening all of their ports or without an open NAT.

I think you guys seriously need to check your shit and stop expecting any online to be playable on wireless.  Wireless drops packets all the time and is too unreliable for real-time applications.

Just to be clear, I would have preferred 13 use GGPO just like everyone else, but this constant vitriol about how "atrocious" the netcode is just factually untrue and is probably giving people who were otherwise interested the wrong impression about its playability.  Campaign all you want for GGPO netcode in this version or the next, but don't take a big shit all over the netcode when it's perfectly playable.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: steamwolf on November 25, 2011, 10:09:33 PM
thec0re3: You are comparing a new game to games almost ten years old running on a PC emulator. When it comes to emulation, that opens the doors to be able to do whatever because this is what Ponder has done: He has tacked GGPO onto the EMULATOR known as Final Burn Alpha. The emulator is running off of your PC. The game engine for say, KoF 2002, is running inside of an emulator tricking the game into believing it is being played on the original arcade machine. However, Ponder did not take 2002's game engine and code GGPO directly into the game engine. That would be impossible without rebuilding the game's engine, which would require Ponder to have the source code of the 02 Game Engine which is a private, copy-written engine owned by SNKPlaymore. Emulation and modern day gaming is two totally different things here man so it's not a fair comparison at all. I do not know the specifics as to why 3rd Strike OE can use GGPO, but I'd hazard a guess at saying they either re-built the game engine with GGPO added on, or created a custom made emulator for PS3 to run 3rd Strike in and said emulator was built around GGPO. But I am unsure on this one here.

For a new fighting game with a much more complex game engine like KoF XIII, it would be impossible to just tack on GGPO if the game's engine was not built to accommodate it. It's just that simple. Ask any software engine developer, whether it be a web programmer or game developer. They will tell you the same thing. The car's engine has to be able to handle everything you add on to it. If the engine is not powerful enough to handle say, I dunno....turbos or something (forgive me if I don't know car) then it won't work. Does that make any sense?

I'm no expert but how is it that the previous engines,all of them built differently, can run through GGPO with no problem? Isn't it more impart due to the system in which there running on? Like the fact that GGPO and other places like it run on FBA.

Lets just say in the future, we get an xbox360 emulator and they offer netplay doesn't it work the same way in theory? Like I said I honestly don't no how the GGPO code works but I tend to hear people tell me how everything isn't possible and then one day I look up and it is. I understand from a financial and production standpoint it may not be feasible, maybe japanese companies don't understand how important netcode is to game sales but I doubt that. 

I'm new to the whole game creation seen. I'm actually going to school for game art but I haven't really delved deep into game engines as yet. This month will be my second time working in one. Now if today's game engines are different then the one's from yester year and would never allow the type of things that GGPO and other emulators can do without those things being built in from day one then I see where your coming from but a lot of times it seems like its just an excuse not to try its all theory until someone actually does it and says its not possible.  




Quote from: Reiki.Kito
Because the game is rendered in 2D, not 3D. 3D games don't work on GGPO.

This is not true. The only reason GGPO was not selected for SFIV was because it was process heavy to Capcom and they didn't feel like trying to work with it. It is entirely possible to put GGPO to a 3D game, you just have to make sure the game engine is coded in a way to allow for GGPO.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: darkTown2 on November 25, 2011, 10:13:50 PM
Japan does have an arcade fighter (DBZ game I think) which runs on GGPO.

I think the real bottleneck is console RAM for GGPO on console, though Skullgirls makes me wonder with its 3 on 3 and lots of animation.


it's a dbz game called dbz zenkai battle royal just to back up your post.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: zeech on November 26, 2011, 04:19:40 AM
Here we go again.  Every time GGPO gets discussed people start parading the same ignorance and misinformation.

Rollback netcode works for both 2D and 3D games.  In fact, the concept of rollback was inspired by the netcode techniques used in first person shooters.

Rollback netcodes have a fairly high overhead in processing.  When a rollback occurs, the game has to process multiple simulation frames instantly to figure out the new gamestate.   Its possible that newer games, which already fail to run at perfect framerate on consoles, dont have the spare processor capacity to run a rollback system.  But it's also possible that framerate drops are due to GPU being maxed out, so there is spare CPU.

GGPO can work on any game in an emulator, because the emulator can trivially save the entire gamestate and restore it, and also run simulation frames without drawing, which is fundamental to doing rollbacks.  However, a game that wants to implement GGPO natively can be internally designed to save/restore/run its gamestate, and often it can do so much more efficiently than an emulator.  Since it can be more selective about what data it wants to remember/process.  Some games written for PC are designed this way from the beginning, so that they will run simulation frames ("ticks") seperately from visual frames.

GGPO can theoretically be added to any game.  However, the design of the game engine and other limitations can make doing so require far more work than a game dev wants to spend.  Factors include:
- Whether the engine can be easily recoded to store multiple frames of gamestate and quickly run simulation frames faster than visual frames.
- Whether the game has been optimised enough to leave a lot of spare CPU power for the netcode.

If the game engine isnt convenient for those 2 things, then adding GGPO would require a lot of work, or even be impossible. (Certainly there is a limit to how much you can optimise, so it might be that some games cannot use GGPO on current consoles without cutting physics/graphics/sound quality etc.)

2D games are actually more hardware intensive than 3D games these days - modern consoles are optimised for 3D graphics, not for rendering very large 2D sprites.  Low RAM is especially a problem.  So, if SNK had to do on the fly sprite decompression to fit the sprites into RAM, then that would use up a lot of CPU, for example.

---------------------------------

So anyways, thats the truth as far as I know it.  I'm not an expert on netcode, but I am a professional software engineer and I've been interested in GGPO and rollback netcode. So I think I have a basic understanding of some of the issues involved.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 26, 2011, 04:35:34 AM
Conclussion: let's hope KOF XV comes with Supercade 2 built-in for PS4.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: BioBooster on November 26, 2011, 04:40:41 AM
@zeech, thanks for this writeup. This is great to know.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: steamwolf on November 26, 2011, 03:10:34 PM
This. Everyone listen to this guy it's basically what I was trying to say lol. Thank you, zeech.

Here we go again.  Every time GGPO gets discussed people start parading the same ignorance and misinformation.

Rollback netcode works for both 2D and 3D games.  In fact, the concept of rollback was inspired by the netcode techniques used in first person shooters.

Rollback netcodes have a fairly high overhead in processing.  When a rollback occurs, the game has to process multiple simulation frames instantly to figure out the new gamestate.   Its possible that newer games, which already fail to run at perfect framerate on consoles, dont have the spare processor capacity to run a rollback system.  But it's also possible that framerate drops are due to GPU being maxed out, so there is spare CPU.

GGPO can work on any game in an emulator, because the emulator can trivially save the entire gamestate and restore it, and also run simulation frames without drawing, which is fundamental to doing rollbacks.  However, a game that wants to implement GGPO natively can be internally designed to save/restore/run its gamestate, and often it can do so much more efficiently than an emulator.  Since it can be more selective about what data it wants to remember/process.  Some games written for PC are designed this way from the beginning, so that they will run simulation frames ("ticks") seperately from visual frames.

GGPO can theoretically be added to any game.  However, the design of the game engine and other limitations can make doing so require far more work than a game dev wants to spend.  Factors include:
- Whether the engine can be easily recoded to store multiple frames of gamestate and quickly run simulation frames faster than visual frames.
- Whether the game has been optimised enough to leave a lot of spare CPU power for the netcode.

If the game engine isnt convenient for those 2 things, then adding GGPO would require a lot of work, or even be impossible. (Certainly there is a limit to how much you can optimise, so it might be that some games cannot use GGPO on current consoles without cutting physics/graphics/sound quality etc.)

2D games are actually more hardware intensive than 3D games these days - modern consoles are optimised for 3D graphics, not for rendering very large 2D sprites.  Low RAM is especially a problem.  So, if SNK had to do on the fly sprite decompression to fit the sprites into RAM, then that would use up a lot of CPU, for example.

---------------------------------

So anyways, thats the truth as far as I know it.  I'm not an expert on netcode, but I am a professional software engineer and I've been interested in GGPO and rollback netcode. So I think I have a basic understanding of some of the issues involved.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Ky0 on November 26, 2011, 04:34:57 PM
hey guys, I dont know but it seems the onlie in US, are not so good like that...
Its weird, causes here (europe), 70% of my online matchs, are green and blue (YES BLUE between UK guys, spanish guys, FR guys, etc!!! o_O )  so I'm not understanding that diference!

And yes, 4 bars (blue) connection is close to the offline! Definitely, MUCH BETTER than that 4 bars of SSF4!!!

Honestly, I have no complains about NetCode, quite the contrary!
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: thec0re3 on November 26, 2011, 05:06:13 PM
hey guys, I dont know but it seems the onlie in US, are not so good like that...
Its weird, causes here (europe), 70% of my online matchs, are green and blue (YES BLUE between UK guys, spanish guys, FR guys, etc!!! o_O )  so I'm not understanding that diference!

And yes, 4 bars (blue) connection is close to the offline! Definitely, MUCH BETTER than that 4 bars of SSF4!!!

Honestly, I have no complains about NetCode, quite the contrary!


I think its just the fact that many of us run on a different type of connection. While most of us have migrated over to using cable, some of us are still using DSL others are using wireless so we have no consistency when it comes to connections. I'd like to think at least 70% of the US are on cable networks and so those are the ones who are having a better experience with the game IMO.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Ashspiralingblood on November 26, 2011, 06:50:09 PM
tried online today, at first I hated it, so much input lag and slowdowns, then went to players match where the connection was much better with some hiccups here and there, went back to rank match and after a while the connections were better, the netcode is playable but it needs some improvements because input lag is not fun at all.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: thec0re3 on November 26, 2011, 09:48:44 PM
I finally got a chance to try out a different connection definitely got better results. I managed to get two matches with 3 bars and both felt much better.

Played  matches with the two bar connection from FL to Ny and those were horrible especially the input lag.

I was playing on a wired connection. I did not open any ports as the xblive test didn't come up with any errors when I did the test. I may open them if I do get a chance to play again.


(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1614357155.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Nocturnal on November 26, 2011, 10:38:19 PM
GGs to Sabin from yesterdays matches. Giby was here with me and we tested the online. We had a 2 bad connection Coast to Coat (CA to NY). There was delay for sure. The delay reminded me of the old school Kailelra server days. I did feel at times that the connection got smoother for me and Giby but that was probably because we were adjusting to the delay. It was hard to react to certain things though but combos were still possible. Still the online isn't the greatest but it's a lot better than XII that's for sure. Aslo Sabin's Fios helped out a lot. If it was anyone else with normal net it would have been unplayable I'm sure. Here's a recording of us playing since he was streaming it: http://www.twitch.tv/nycfurby/b/300958109 (http://www.twitch.tv/nycfurby/b/300958109)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Kane317 on November 26, 2011, 10:46:53 PM
I'd like to test my connection with Art as well, I need to upgrade my modem but I recently bumped up my internet speed to the fastest COX cable has to offer.  My up is around 30Mbps down (which should improve as it's limited to the modem) and roughly 7-8up.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Reiki.Kito on November 27, 2011, 01:46:09 AM
Played against Nilcam today. We were at 2bars and there was some delay, but I was still able to pull off some combos. I did drop some that I usually don't, but all and all, it wasn't terrible.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 27, 2011, 03:41:43 AM
Nocturnal: Yeah, it would be amazing if we could have honest matches without the input delay. As you can see, my fios does help a lot in keeping the connection smooth even tho there is a good amount of input delay, which allowed us to quickrise as much as we did  since the delay for the most part, was consistent. Damn it SNKP, fix the netcode :(

I'd like to test my connection with Art as well, I need to upgrade my modem but I recently bumped up my internet speed to the fastest COX cable has to offer.  My up is around 30Mbps down (which should improve as it's limited to the modem) and roughly 7-8up.

Yeah, sure I don't mind testing it out with you, just let me know. I'm thinking about doing at least one stream a week for 13 at this point. Hopefully I'll get better connection than Nocturnal. The best connection I had with a Cox user was w/ Latif, who has Cox, and we have amazingly playable matches in SSF4 over his connection (as you know, Viper/Sim are really chars that get affected hugely with any kind of delay, but it was honestly fine.) Maybe it might be bad for us since you're a little further to the WC than Latif is..and its 13 netcode..but yeah, i dont mind giving it a shot. Should hit me up on twitter if anything.

I hope that my experiences and videos get back to SNKP/Atlus in some way, since as far as I know I'm the only person on fiber optics that streams their matches in the US...so generally if the connections are "meh" for me its ogin to be a hell of a lot worse for everyone else :(

Ky0: Honestly, I expect the connections outside the US in some parts of Eurasia to be a lot better...it seems that this gam was designed from the ground up for high speed connections/fiber and it was built and tweaked around that...evidenced by the # of 4 bar matches that Poongko got on his stream in his home country =( Where are you from?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: GuamoKun on November 27, 2011, 04:37:56 AM
I was playing against someone, they were from the US, I don;t know where, but we both had a two bar connection.

The first round was pretty bad and had the "synchronizing" message for a while before the round started. After round two, the synchronizing message didn't appear and the game ran really smoothly.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: IceWater on November 27, 2011, 05:24:26 AM
Whelp finally got to play this online after waiting a year and a half since I first saw the arcade version advertisements and I haven't been this angry/disappointed in quite a while. The game itself is wonderful and is just as fun as I thought it would be which makes it all the worse that I can't play it against other people as it is meant to be played.

Like other people have said 3-4 bars is playable but I haven't experienced any matches without a big chunk of input lag, enough so that everything feels noticeably delayed and playing offline and online feel like totally different games. If you haven't picked this up yet then you should definitely be aware that the online portion still isn't what it needs to be, so if that's going to be a dealbreaker for you then you may want to pass on buying it. I don't see myself sticking with this for very long if nothing is done about it, and after getting 98/2002 UM too and having to deal with the same thing I doubt if I'm ever buying anything with snk put on it again after this.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: zeech on November 27, 2011, 07:38:24 AM
I think the best testing is done this way:

- Get a pair of players who own several recent FGs, including well regarded netcode BB, and big popular game SF4AE.
- Try playing each FG together and compare the experience with KOF13.

This makes it easier to spot issues with your setup.  If all FGs work poorly for you, then KOF cant be expected to do any better.  Similarly, if SF4 and BB work better against the same opponent under the same conditions, then its a powerful argument for Atlus/SNK that KOF13 is not performing up to industry standards.

--------------------------

Personally, regarding a patch, I think the very first thing we should demand is an "advanced network info" mode.
You turn it on in the options, and when you do:

- You see a true ping value rather than the mobile phone bars.

- During the match, there is a banner on the top/bottom of the screen, that constantly displays connection information:
Average Ping so far.
Worst ping so far.
Packet loss stats.
Current Input Delay setting.
(if there are any "special events" that occur from the netcode, like resyncing or waiting for packets or whatever, then icons will appear in the banner to indicate when it is happening.)


This will provide much needed information to help give feedback, and also allow people to properly understand what is going on under the hood in the netcode.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: zeech on November 27, 2011, 07:42:49 AM
This. Everyone listen to this guy it's basically what I was trying to say lol. Thank you, zeech.


Hahah, actually I was trying to argue against you too.  I think the possibility exists that rollback netcode could be tacked onto KOF13. Or at least they could have made the decision to go with rollback way back when we were begging for it for KOF12.  And we certainly shouldnt stop asking for it.

But its not as trivial as some people think it is, and SNK might have valid reasons for not being able to do it.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 27, 2011, 08:14:39 AM
zeech, ive already done this. i wouldnt be posting as much as i have otherwise. Furthermore I haven't seen anyone in the US with a solid connection like I have posting in this thread. I've tested it over a variety of games, most notably, MK9, KOF, SSF4, GGPO and umvc3. still needs work.

Also, what youre asking for is a complete overhaul of the netcode. i dont expect that to happen at all. netcode honestly has to be buit from the ground up, you cant just patch it to have ggpo style rollback, or lobbies or anything ike that, serious capital expenditure.

its better to ask for something that is realistic imo like asking for them to improve their input delay netcode to something close to SSF4AE, which is reasonable and not totally unrealistic
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: zeech on November 27, 2011, 08:27:47 AM
Yes, but anyone wanting to feedback to Atlus needs to do it too.  It's not enough just to say online isnt working well for them, because a host of other factors could be present.  Its more meaningful to report back that KOF isnt performing as well as other games.


As for rewriting their netcode, I certainly agree that it's not a realistic expectation.  But I think the difficulties are more economic/political than technical.  I'm still puzzled why SNK continually sticks with GSS when it has been proven to underperform in past titles. (at least in the west... I vaguely recall hearing something about it being tied to a special service in japan?)

Not to mention the fact that RollCaster shows us that a single person can implement a rollback netcode onto a game that doesnt even support online play, without access to the game source even.  Yes, the technical challenges are different with KOF13, but none of us can really say just how different it is.

Heck, given that GSS seems to be middleware of some kind, a fantasy scenario would be those guys getting their act together and writing a new version of their libraries with big improvements, and then all SNK has to do is get the new files and recompile hahah.  Fantasy indeed.


Like I said, the most practical and useful first thing to ask for, is for more data on the inner workings of the netcode to be displayed so we can understand whats going on.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: arstal on November 27, 2011, 09:15:55 AM
I like KOF, but with netcode like this and an inability to consistently get offline play, I'm going to be dropping the game once Blazblue or Skullgirls hits, games I know will play well online.  

I can tolerate mediocre netcode,I could tolerate online Tekken, but this falls short of mediocre.  I've seen a few guys actively try to lag abuse also.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: shinefist on November 27, 2011, 01:16:37 PM
Bets thing to do is sit in player match and play practise intill you get a challenger, at least you can quit if you dont want to play them. Ranked match you cannot do so that needs fixing.

Had some better connections where you had lag but small amount where you can just about play, but thats still rare to get consistantly & thats the main problem. Being only able to play certain players with a good connection is going to limit the players you can play.
What i find is that most players suck anyway as there is alot to learn in this game i'm one of em lol, that doesn't help either as being shite and having bad connection isn't a good combination to bring new players into the game.

Overall the game itself seems really good, but wheres the PATCH, at least they can do is message people saying they will fix necessary issues.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: jinxhand on November 27, 2011, 01:33:18 PM
I like KOF, but with netcode like this and an inability to consistently get offline play, I'm going to be dropping the game once Blazblue or Skullgirls hits, games I know will play well online.  

I can tolerate mediocre netcode,I could tolerate online Tekken, but this falls short of mediocre.  I've seen a few guys actively try to lag abuse also.

Have you played either game yet??? If not, you can't be so sure of its performance... Everyone thought that 3SOE was gonna be great online... Well, it sure ain't HDR in terms of netcode performance...

As for BB, it was best during BBCT, and kinda declined as it progressed forward... That's been the view of quite a few players in the scene...

I'm honestly surprised you could bear Tekken 6 online. I have it for both psn and 360, and aside from the 2 frame delay, it worked better on 360 when it came to online matches. Either way, its still not saying much, because the netcode for that game barely passed the performance of T5DR Online...

You shouldn't just ditch something that fast... I'm pretty sure a patch of some sorts is in the works... The same thing happened to MK9, and the game is still getting mad play online...

Well, I haven't had many 1 bar matches. 2 bars, I've had quite a few, but even still, they all performed rather differently. I've had a bit of 3 bar matches, too... What kills me is I face people in Mexico with 2 bars, and it performs pretty good. I fight someone in the states that's not East Coast with 3 bars, and its meh sometimes. Only 2 games dropped on me so far, with no one at fault.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: StickyStaines on November 27, 2011, 02:41:59 PM
I think the best testing is done this way:

- Get a pair of players who own several recent FGs, including well regarded netcode BB, and big popular game SF4AE.
- Try playing each FG together and compare the experience with KOF13.

This makes it easier to spot issues with your setup.  If all FGs work poorly for you, then KOF cant be expected to do any better.  Similarly, if SF4 and BB work better against the same opponent under the same conditions, then its a powerful argument for Atlus/SNK that KOF13 is not performing up to industry standards.

I play my friend in every fighting game that has come out. Ranging from SF4, 4 bar BB matches, SNK games to Tekken. When i play him i can definitely feel  something weird going on. My normals seems to come out ok but movement feels REALLY weird. Jumping will first start off really heavy when i first start playing it.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 27, 2011, 04:25:50 PM
Yes, but anyone wanting to feedback to Atlus needs to do it too.  It's not enough just to say online isnt working well for them, because a host of other factors could be present.  Its more meaningful to report back that KOF isnt performing as well as other games.

exactly, which is one of the main reasons that im streaming so much - so that there is some kind of record of the common problems. I mean if I seriously got contacted by someone at SNKP, yea best believe i would provide them with a good amount of data including traceroutes, etc. but again, japanese company :( (not the language barrier part, but i know jp devs are extremely stubborn)

Quote
As for rewriting their netcode, I certainly agree that it's not a realistic expectation.  But I think the difficulties are more economic/political than technical.  I'm still puzzled why SNK continually sticks with GSS when it has been proven to underperform in past titles. (at least in the west... I vaguely recall hearing something about it being tied to a special service in japan?)

hard to say..like i said earlier in this thread, all the devs (including NRS staff which i asked) all say they cannot use rollback style netcode since this generation of games maxes out the current gen consoles, leaving no CPU/GPU left for ggpo style rollback...Ponder on the other hand says its possible, just need strong netcode to be built from day 1 not the other way around.

i think its a combination of economic and politics in house as well as technical issues for sure, and they obviously did not hire any network engineers in the US..if they did they would have figured this out right away. (obviously im spectulating here, but seriously, did they do quality tests in the US?)

Quote
Not to mention the fact that RollCaster shows us that a single person can implement a rollback netcode onto a game that doesnt even support online play, without access to the game source even.  Yes, the technical challenges are different with KOF13, but none of us can really say just how different it is.

Heck, given that GSS seems to be middleware of some kind, a fantasy scenario would be those guys getting their act together and writing a new version of their libraries with big improvements, and then all SNK has to do is get the new files and recompile hahah.  Fantasy indeed.

Like I said, the most practical and useful first thing to ask for, is for more data on the inner workings of the netcode to be displayed so we can understand whats going on.

 
Rollcaster is amazing, but yea, thats either here nor there. Wouldnt be able to know unless SNKP showed someone the sourcecode which i really doubt they will.

The first step is though to get the community to rally behind a universal message that the netcode is subpar in the first place. Unfortunately, some ppl are in denial and I'm having trouble even doing that :(

Jinxhand: Mk9 is getting a lot of netplay in spite of the crappy netcode. Not b/c its patched properly. It just went from unplayable to "alright if you have a godlike connection its playable". It's still extrmely subpar. It sold 3 million copies which is why its getting play. You cant get 1 player to defend the netcode without getting laughed at...at least its a unified message. Not the case here. :(

Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: arstal on November 27, 2011, 06:12:32 PM
I like KOF, but with netcode like this and an inability to consistently get offline play, I'm going to be dropping the game once Blazblue or Skullgirls hits, games I know will play well online.  

I can tolerate mediocre netcode,I could tolerate online Tekken, but this falls short of mediocre.  I've seen a few guys actively try to lag abuse also.

Have you played either game yet??? If not, you can't be so sure of its performance... Everyone thought that 3SOE was gonna be great online... Well, it sure ain't HDR in terms of netcode performance...

As for BB, it was best during BBCT, and kinda declined as it progressed forward... That's been the view of quite a few players in the scene...

I'm honestly surprised you could bear Tekken 6 online. I have it for both psn and 360, and aside from the 2 frame delay, it worked better on 360 when it came to online matches. Either way, its still not saying much, because the netcode for that game barely passed the performance of T5DR Online...

You shouldn't just ditch something that fast... I'm pretty sure a patch of some sorts is in the works... The same thing happened to MK9, and the game is still getting mad play online...

Well, I haven't had many 1 bar matches. 2 bars, I've had quite a few, but even still, they all performed rather differently. I've had a bit of 3 bar matches, too... What kills me is I face people in Mexico with 2 bars, and it performs pretty good. I fight someone in the states that's not East Coast with 3 bars, and its meh sometimes. Only 2 games dropped on me so far, with no one at fault.

Well, I'm not ditching the game until SC5 at a minimum, so that's two months.  

I refuse to play 1 or 2 bars period.  As for Tekken, it was bad for doing some things, but the things it was bad at, were the reasons I think VF is a better game, so I didn't mind it so much.  I know that will have good netcode.

next year has 3 games that are likely to have great netcode: Skullgirls, next BB, VF5FS.

Tried for half hour to get a match, got one, and the guy was a super lag abuser.  Really annoying, only could deal with him by shutting my game down to his level.  Then again I bet everything is lag abuse online to a degree.  Still, weaksauce.  I get more matches even playing Arcana Heart that are good, and that's much more poverty then KOF.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Spooty Whiteboy on November 27, 2011, 06:34:07 PM
After practicing offline for hours, playing online does feel like underwater.  At first, my actions were all a little off anyways, and I was dropping shit left-and-right.  Now that I have gotten a little better at the game, I can definitely feel the difference.

I hate to say the netcode is bad, because I want to be a positive person, but it definitely isn't good.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: nilcam on November 27, 2011, 09:47:23 PM
Off topic posts moved to: http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1574.0 (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1574.0)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Terrastorm on November 27, 2011, 10:18:04 PM
Please tell me that some of you at the Level Up stream yesterday told the Atlus reps about the bad netcode. Please.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: MUSOLINI on November 27, 2011, 11:13:32 PM
yo sabin you seem like the good spokesperson to tell them at atlus. i dont know if we EU players can do the same with rising star games, we could ask for a patch. if eventhe japanese players where complaining when they got the best internet in the world you know somethings up.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Terrastorm on November 28, 2011, 12:36:07 AM
yo sabin you seem like the good spokesperson to tell them at atlus. i dont know if we EU players can do the same with rising star games, we could ask for a patch. if eventhe japanese players where complaining when they got the best internet in the world you know somethings up.
I am pretty sure that Sabin lives on the another side of the country.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 28, 2011, 01:54:16 AM
yo sabin you seem like the good spokesperson to tell them at atlus. i dont know if we EU players can do the same with rising star games, we could ask for a patch. if eventhe japanese players where complaining when they got the best internet in the world you know somethings up.

i dont have connections at atlus, dreamcancel guys do though.
if kof13 is on the spooky stream for nec, of course thats the first thing im talking about before i commentate the matches :(

I don't think Japan/Korea will complain about the netplay. Like I said in the beginning of the thread when you play fiber to fiber its honestly fine.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: steamwolf on November 28, 2011, 02:30:59 AM
We're all ready preparing to make an attempt at doing something about the netcode. I don't know how successful it will be, but I have some good ideas and I think at the very least? We'll be heard. Whether that will make a difference? Whose to say but I'm fairly confident the people who need to hear the complaints of the community will. There will be a front page post about it soon for everyone whose curious as to what I'm talking about.

Hahah, actually I was trying to argue against you too.  I think the possibility exists that rollback netcode could be tacked onto KOF13. Or at least they could have made the decision to go with rollback way back when we were begging for it for KOF12.  And we certainly shouldnt stop asking for it.

But its not as trivial as some people think it is, and SNK might have valid reasons for not being able to do it.


I guess my wording confused you! I actually agreed with everything you said and it was what I was trying to say :(

When I was saying that it'd be "impossible" I didn't mean technically it couldn't be DONE so much as there are too many financial and political limitations. The technical aspect would probably be difficult to deal with but could be done with proper funding and so long as say, a five year contract isn't in place lol. If GSS is tied to a service in Japan, ontop of them being an outside company? Then it's very likely the contract has stipulations like "X number of games must use GSS" or "X number of KoF titles" etc etc. Contracts in the business world very rarely can be broken, and SNKPlaymore doesn't have the money to break said contracts since it would result in lawsuits :(. They're a private company so they don't have the stock market or share holders really. As far as demanding to know the details of the netcode? That's a stretch I'm afraid. Asking to know doesn't really fix much. Sure it gives us a better idea as to how it works but I'd be more inclined to recommend someone ask GSS directly as SNKP spilling such secrets could violate their contract. No way to really KNOW for sure but I think the better approach for now is to just let Atlus, Rising Star, and SNKPlaymore know how much we dislike said netcode. Us guys in the DC staff are working on that! So hang tight guys until we get to that point.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on November 28, 2011, 03:05:01 AM
^ Props to you guys! I will wait patiently for that possible respond from GSS or SNKP. On the mean time I will improve my skills in training mode.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 28, 2011, 03:07:32 AM
yo sabin you seem like the good spokesperson to tell them at atlus. i dont know if we EU players can do the same with rising star games, we could ask for a patch. if eventhe japanese players where complaining when they got the best internet in the world you know somethings up.

i dont have connections at atlus, dreamcancel guys do though.
if kof13 is on the spooky stream for nec, of course thats the first thing im talking about before i commentate the matches :(

I don't think Japan/Korea will complain about the netplay. Like I said in the beginning of the thread when you play fiber to fiber its honestly fine.

Eric said XIII is getting at least 2 hours on the stream I believe so there's your chance.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: monster637 on November 28, 2011, 07:36:01 AM
its the game not people networks, i watched that kid poongko , im not sure if he is in korea or what , but i watched a 2 hour stream of him waiting in training to get a decent 3-4 bar connection. Tons of people jumped in the room ,but he booted them or they left because they had 1 bar, watched him check for lobbies all in korean and all were bad lobbies... i been tinkering around with my kof 12  and its online is like blazeblue compared to kof 13 on ps3
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 28, 2011, 07:41:16 AM
It's both monster.

While the game has shitty netcode, when people actually do have optimal connections, it runs fine.  And Poongko got more 4 bar connections in one day, than most of us have had since the release of the game combined, and that's because the infrastructure of Korea, you know, doesn't suck.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on November 28, 2011, 09:04:59 AM
IF SNKP does release a patch, I hope they add the option to kick the opponent off a Rank Match and/or actually make the online criteria work in the search.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Shaman on November 28, 2011, 02:27:13 PM
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1617091943.png)
I'm in France, near Paris. I have fiber optics, I quite commonly found people with 3/4 bars (and the game is not released yet haha). At 4 bars, it had almost 0 delay. With 3 bars, It was kind of random, got some matches with a bit more delay than 4 bars (I would say a GGPO delay), some matches were really delayed, with a real slowmode feeling, that made reactions a lot harder if impossible. I find playing with 1 or 2 bars not playable at all.
We have good connections here, so you might not rely on this.

Personnaly I only play the non-ranked mode set to 4 bars as host, and then wait in practice. Like said before, you can't host a ranked game and precise you want people with 4 bars, which is kind of stupid since you can do that in non ranked.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mienaikage on November 28, 2011, 02:59:49 PM
With a ping like this I shouldn't be getting lag:
(http://speedtest.net/result/1529809196.png)

If you're in Europe and you want to do some tests send me a message/invite on XBL (same as forum name). I'll be on later today.
Also as I'm sure you're all aware don't use WiFi :P
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 28, 2011, 05:23:42 PM
hah if you guys caught last nights stream youd see the horrors of wireless. someone joined my room with 100mbit FIOS from NJ, it was 3 bar cause he was on wireless, once he switched to wired, 4 bars and it was great lol.

Also, had nothing but crap connections yesterday with 3 bar players from a few states away :(
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 28, 2011, 05:31:21 PM
Yeah, sorry about that Sabin.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: MUSOLINI on November 28, 2011, 05:55:39 PM
lol had my first fight on psn vs eripio69, im from holland he from cyprus, 2 bar connection. IT WAS ASSSSS, input delay and lag atst, wtf. maybe 3 and 4 will be better, but im NEVER playing 2 bar connections or less again, ever.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 28, 2011, 06:43:27 PM
lol had my first fight on psn vs eripio69, im from holland he from cyprus, 2 bar connection. IT WAS ASSSSS, input delay and lag atst, wtf. maybe 3 and 4 will be better, but im NEVER playing 2 bar connections or less again, ever.

That's should've been obvious.  Idk why people are surprised when 1-2 bar connections suck.

3 bar won't be that great either though just to warn you.  If you can manage it (idk your infrastructure where you're at), try your best to stick to 4 bars.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mienaikage on November 28, 2011, 06:54:30 PM
I'm wondering how it comes up with these numbers, I've actually had a 2 bar game that was better quality than a 3 bar game.

I wish games would just give ping in ms/proper connection stats rather than these arbitrary digits...
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: nilcam on November 28, 2011, 07:39:08 PM
The number of bars is a mystery. I've had both awful and amazing 3 bar games. 1 and 2 bars have always been unplayable for me.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Rex Dart on November 28, 2011, 09:51:56 PM
The number of bars is a mystery. I've had both awful and amazing 3 bar games. 1 and 2 bars have always been unplayable for me.

I'm in a similar boat, but I've also had some playable 2 bar matches.

My biggest critique of the netcode is that whatever the bars seem to be measuring isn't an accurate indicator of match quality.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Ironreaver on November 28, 2011, 10:50:06 PM
Sabin I'll be upgrading my internet here in Hawaii to 50Mbps down, i'm current using there 15Mbps down which didnt get me that good of matches with Nocturnal and Giby, two guys i know well from when i lived near them in Cali. I wanna try some matches with you on Sat once they come and upgrade me.  NY to HI and see how it is.  Let me know if you can make it happen.

Also anyone else with a good internet connection post your speeds.  I'm thinking at least 30Mbps down should get you good 3 bar matches.

Like Art said we need to get all the data we can and get SNKP to at least try to patch the input lag delay to around SSF4AE levels so its more consistent as opposed to hit or miss.

I've have decent 2-3bar matches and also horrible 2-3bar matches.  had 3 bars with both Wolfkrone and Juciebox but they went down during the match itself.... also had decent 2-3bar matches with no issues so its really a consistency thing with this netcode.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KOFdude on November 28, 2011, 11:03:21 PM
if nothing is done soon this game is gonna die just like XII did. 3 friends of mine already traded this game in :/ I'm still holding to it but they better do something soon!
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 28, 2011, 11:15:28 PM
It won't die that fast.  If it flops at NEC and SCR, THEN we're in trouble as far as the game itself goes.

But don't expect the netcode to get better.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: TYRANNICAL on November 28, 2011, 11:16:33 PM
The game just came out, if people are trading it in now they weren't going to keep playing anyway. 
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 28, 2011, 11:25:12 PM
The game just came out, if people are trading it in now they weren't going to keep playing anyway. 

This.  If people just dropped it already, they either did not want to get the game in the first place and only did it for an outside reason, or they didn't like the game itself and the netcode was a non factor anyway.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: ShinSyn on November 28, 2011, 11:32:45 PM
Well, with my experience, netplay has been great.  I've only had one bad connection and my good connections are with people who are of great distances.  I'm on the PS3 and have a wired connection, just to give you guys an example of the distances

(http://www.pingtest.net/result/51457538.png) (http://www.pingtest.net)

Good Connections:

Myself: Illinois
Opponent: SoCal
Connection: 3 Bars
Little to no lag, just online input delay (As it usually is going from Offline to Online), I was able to pull off combos and even complete my HD combos with our connection.  Adjusting from offline to online was really quick, I had no complaints with our connection.

Myself: Illinois
Opponent: Pennsylvania
Connection: 3 Bars
Virtually no lag, just online input delay (as stated before), Same thing with the connection with my cousin from SoCal; no issues, able to cope with difference from offline to online delay, and I had no complaints with our connection.

Bad Connection:

Myself: Illinois
Opponent: Michigan
Connection: 3 Bars
The lag was horrendous, we had to synchronize every round we played and I couldn't even do BnB's in our connection because of the delay and random spikes we had.  Virtually unplayable.

I find it funny that the people furthest away from me gives me some of the best connections I've played in some fighting games and the one who's only 5 hours away, maybe less than 300 miles away lagged the worst with me.  TBH, I'm sure it all depends on both player's setups, being wired and how the ping strengths of each connection are.

The netcode could use some work but it's not as bad as some others are saying.  Either way, I'm going to play XIII because I'm lucky enough to enjoy the game offline because there is a scene here in Chicago and I can go up to Michigan once every 2 weeks to make it to Casuals out there if I wanted to.

It won't die that fast.  If it flops at NEC and SCR, THEN we're in trouble as far as the game itself goes.

But don't expect the netcode to get better.

^ This so much!  Yeah, the netcode may not be up to par for some people, but its playable, and if the game does well in an offline setting, it's going to thrive.

The game just came out, if people are trading it in now they weren't going to keep playing anyway. 

This is possibly the best and most on point post I've seen in this thread.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: ZeroSoulreaver on November 29, 2011, 01:26:30 AM
KOF won't die, it's a great game and the only drawback is the netplay at the moment.  If you are that upset over netplay then I dunno what to tell you. It's frustrating as hell I know, but not much can be done at the moment.  I just hope they patch it though I know a patch won't fully fix the issues.


Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: StickyStaines on November 29, 2011, 02:10:20 PM
Little to no lag, just online input delay

But input delay is what lag is. I dunno about anyone else but if i can feel the input delay then it is completely unplayable.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 29, 2011, 06:07:08 PM
Little to no lag, just online input delay

But input delay is what lag is. I dunno about anyone else but if i can feel the input delay then it is completely unplayable.

Pretty much this, but I'll add something to be a BIT less harsh.

Input delay is bad...but if at LEAST it's consistent input delay, it can be dealt with in some way.  The problem here is...it isn't consistent here, which does not help the cause.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Ironreaver on November 29, 2011, 06:34:01 PM
Well most ppl didnt want to play it if they traded it in aleady.... most will prolly jus play the more popular stuff like AE and UMVC3. snkp will address the netcode im sure....if they want success they have to address it
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 29, 2011, 06:36:05 PM
Ironreaver: Sure, we can try. But given my exp with Nocturnal I'm not expecting good things. I get about 80 (good connection) to 120ms (standard) to the WC from the EC. I'm expecting it to be far higher to Hawaii which will mean completely unplayable. But yeah if you want to get sadface, sure.

Well, with my experience, netplay has been great.  I've only had one bad connection

Good Connections:

Myself: Illinois
Opponent: SoCal
Connection: 3 Bars
Little to no lag, just online input delay

Facepalm #1 :(


Quote
Myself: Illinois
Opponent: Pennsylvania
Connection: 3 Bars
Virtually no lag, just online input delay

Facepalm #2 :(

Quote
Bad Connection:

Myself: Illinois
Opponent: Michigan
Connection: 3 Bars
The lag was horrendous, we had to synchronize every round we played and I couldn't even do BnB's in our connection because of the delay and random spikes we had.  Virtually unplayable.

At least here, you finally start to accept reality man. Thank god, I was worried. :( Basically what youre saying with your post is, there is lag, it is just CONSISTENT lag, meaning something you can deal with (but doesnt mean it's good by any means.)

Quote
The netcode could use some work but it's not as bad as some others are saying.  Either way, I'm going to play XIII because I'm lucky enough to enjoy the game offline because there is a scene here in Chicago and I can go up to Michigan once every 2 weeks to make it to Casuals out there if I wanted to.

Dude, find me 1 top player in America that will go on record and say the netcode is acceptable. I'm still waiting  I highly doubt you will :( Noone I know who's opinion means anything (meaning theyre a seasoned player and can tell input delay from tourneys, constant offline play over the years) has gone on record to defend the netcode.

Instead of making posts like this (which obfuscate the issues because it's quite obvious that you cannot tell the difference between lag and input delay, please help us get behind the issue of FIX the netcode, because as it is right now, its simply unacceptable :(

It's a shame most people wont ever get to play on good netcode or have good internet period..when both sides have good net, and the netcode is good "online delay" is far less of a issue. For examples of this, check Godsgarden online tourneys for SF4 which are for serious amounts of money, and are online, where players with beast connections dont have as much problems with delay that we do.

I played SSF4 yesterday for a long time just to compare the netcode, it is light years better, and I have a much higher chance of finding close to lag free connections. Sigh :( Sad truth of the situation is, SSF4 netcode is barely acceptable as is (still input delay, but great connections mitigate these issues)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Ironreaver on November 29, 2011, 07:45:42 PM
@ Sabin  :( I'll prep my sad face yo....anyway its good data to gather when SNKP does decide to patch it.

So far tho BB and SF4 have the best online from my experience...UMVC3 is ok...lags alot more than it should.  KOF 13 will need a stable online to be taken serious.

I dont play MK9 but how is there netcode?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 29, 2011, 08:45:09 PM
Not great either, not as bad as KOF13 of course but still not SSF4 quality. I guess somewhere in the middle (closer torward SSF4 side, but not great.)

I wanna tip my hands off to Dream Cancel for writing the open letter. If you guys care about KOF13 lifespan, please, please post that article, retweet it, post it on facebook, blow it up. Check the front page!!
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: R.E.L. on November 29, 2011, 08:57:26 PM
Not great either, not as bad as KOF13 of course but still not SSF4 quality. I guess somewhere in the middle (closer torward SSF4 side, but not great.)

I wanna tip my hands off to Dream Cancel for writing the open letter. If you guys care about KOF13 lifespan, please, please post that article, retweet it, post it on facebook, blow it up. Check the front page!!

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sabin couldn't be anymore accurate.  Get everyone you know involved!
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: JennyCage on November 29, 2011, 09:09:59 PM
MK9 has better netcode than KOF13?  Where can I get what you're smoking?  MK9's netcode is terrible despite two patches to address it.  Offline combos have to be completely retimed for online.  The delay is massive and it's wildly inconsistent.

Sabin, you've been posting a lot talking about how bad the netcode is, but is it possible you have some bad routers between you and the people you're trying to play against?  I play people thousands of miles away and the delay is very minimal.  The fact that you think MK9's netcode is better is incredible given my experience, and I was pretty big into MK9's online for a long time.

KOF13 does have desyncs though, but they may not be noticed unless you're in voice chat with your opponent.  This might be due to my friend's slightly unstable internet, but it exists in a way similar to GGPO or Kaillera.  To me it's very weird that there's Sabin-like experiences with unplayability and my/my friend's experience where it's the closest thing to GGPO without using rollbacks.  It's not like MK9 where you have to totally adapt your timings to perform online combos, and it's leagues better than Kaillera and 2002UM.

So where is the inconsistency coming from?  Are the connections peer to peer?  Are they routed through an Atlus server?  Something is obviously wrong, I just wish we could figure out what.  I hate seeing so many people disparage the netcode because it's causing people to not buy the game out of fear that it's bad, but it's not, at least when it works... trouble is apparently it doesn't work for everyone.

Edit:  Also is this something more common on PS3?  Maybe you guys should include a list of systems affected.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: nilcam on November 29, 2011, 09:21:21 PM
Sabin is on 360; I'm on PS3. My experience has been very inconsistent, though a bit better than his. This may be because I have more tolerance toward lag. It's very hard to find 3 bar connections and that is the required connection for even almost-decent play. Far too often, 3 bar connections are still pretty bad. The few 4 bar connections I've joined actually turned out to be 3 bars.

The online experience needs to be smoothed out and tightened up a lot. If they can patch this game as effectively as XII was patched, the netcode could be very good. Hopefully all of the rumors of an impending patch are true.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: MC2 on November 29, 2011, 09:43:15 PM
PS3 player here.  I've found my online experience to be very....shall I say bipolar, leaning more to the bad side.  I played flawlessly with a friend in Virgnia once (although I lagged to hell just last night with the same friend) but had a mildly laggy experience with another in Florida.....I'm in Texas.

I feel like the netcode itself is flawed, but not horrible in any way especially compared to MK9 and the XBLA SNK titles.  And yeah the open letter is a great idea, and it's very professionally written an courteous, so I believe that SNKP/Atlus will be willing to consider the community's feedback further.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: nilcam on November 29, 2011, 09:47:06 PM
I need to play you! I'm in Oklahoma City and have a good connection.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: johrjives on November 29, 2011, 09:54:56 PM
My online experience hasnt been that good so far. Last night I played with a friend of mine in Edmonton. Edmonton to calgary is about 300 kms.  The netcode degraded the matches to pretty much footsies. Combos were hard to pull off and blocking on reaction was sometimes impossible

Thats a nice letter nilcam. Im glad to see Dreamcancel stepped up for the best interest of the community.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 29, 2011, 09:55:34 PM
MK9 has better netcode than KOF13?  Where can I get what you're smoking?  MK9's netcode is terrible despite two patches to address it.  Offline combos have to be completely retimed for online.  The delay is massive and it's wildly inconsistent.

MK9 has only had one patch for the netcode, and even then its still not as good as SSF4 level.  I'd say its around 75% of where SSF4 should be.If you've been following my stream at all you would see the connections that I have had with people with strong connections or fiber optics. I post my stuff on TestYourMight all the time actually, and if you check my archives for MK9 you can see I play people with varying sort of connection strengths.

Quote
Sabin, you've been posting a lot talking about how bad the netcode is, but is it possible you have some bad routers between you and the people you're trying to play against?  I play people thousands of miles away and the delay is very minimal.  The fact that you think MK9's netcode is better is incredible given my experience, and I was pretty big into MK9's online for a long time.

Just because I said it's better doesn't mean I think it's GOOD. You're getting hung up on semantics here. While I do agree it's still subpar, at least it's possible to play people from other regions altogether. With KOF13, not really possible. Again, it's possible that I can have a laggy router along a certain hop to someone but in order to figure that out again - we'd have to spend a day tracerouting stuff. Which would mean community effort with people overall, which is certainly something I've discussed with a few people.

Regardless of you blaming my setup, like I said before, I have yet to find one player worth their salt that will defend the netcode. You most likely won't. It's almost like people don't want to accept the reality of the situation :(

Quote
KOF13 does have desyncs though, but they may not be noticed unless you're in voice chat with your opponent.  This might be due to my friend's slightly unstable internet, but it exists in a way similar to GGPO or Kaillera.  To me it's very weird that there's Sabin-like experiences with unplayability and my/my friend's experience where it's the closest thing to GGPO without using rollbacks.  It's not like MK9 where you have to totally adapt your timings to perform online combos, and it's leagues better than Kaillera and 2002UM.

With input delay netcode, if the connection is unstable enough, no matter what, you WILL have to compensate your timing in order to land combos consistently. This goes for SSF4, MK9, and KOF13. The question is, how does the netcode handle said input delay and how does it mitigate it? Not asking for miracles but it can certainly use improvement.

Quote
So where is the inconsistency coming from?  Are the connections peer to peer?  Are they routed through an Atlus server?  Something is obviously wrong, I just wish we could figure out what.  I hate seeing so many people disparage the netcode because it's causing people to not buy the game out of fear that it's bad, but it's not, at least when it works... trouble is apparently it doesn't work for everyone.

Edit:  Also is this something more common on PS3?  Maybe you guys should include a list of systems affected.

Again, traceroutes dude. Over both systems. Yes when connection strength is strong, it works great. In a strong 3 bar connection even, the input delay is consistent (but manageable). Played BananaKen last night (someone who I also play in SSF4AE,) connection quality was worse for us compared to other games (but he then commented it's better than playing 3 bar ranked, lol.)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Rex Dart on November 29, 2011, 11:04:11 PM
Last night I actually played some games with players from Mexico. It was actually far more playable than I would have thought. There was input lag, but it was consistent enough that I had no trouble with my BnBs. It was clear that they knew how to KOF.

While I do hope for a patch to improve the netcode, I have to admit it occasionally surprises me with a good match experience.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Bang_Em_Banks on November 29, 2011, 11:54:28 PM
0k, so I been testing the Netplay live on stream "Brawler Up Tv" since day one and a quite a few times since after. I have played over 70 plus online matches with people very close & some rather distant. My connection is a wired connection, my download speed is 26.48mps, my ping is around 5ms, and my upload speed is 5ms. So I would say I have a fairly descent connection overall. Here is my verdict on what I personally think of the netcode as is.

  When playing individuals in my state literally a few neighborhoods over. We definitely had 4 bars versing each other. Though it was 4 bars, and we couldn't see any visual or feel any major lag in the movement there was indeed noticeable input lag & timing issues. For example, I was playing Terry and just doing his standing HP into  ;df Hp into qcb LP a simple standard 4 hit combo and gateway to big damage stuff was much more difficult to perform. I often times found myself trying to mash it out and then just changing the timing of how it was performed offline all together. This was pretty frustrating as getting hit confirms overall online was blatantly more difficult & then when you finally get one you aren't able to simple combo consistently or you get punished for burning knuckle not linking and coming out late & being punished because it isn't safe on block. Also reaction times were a little more inconsistent too. Being able to block or correctly punish things you know are coming on reaction often times still resulted in damage taken which made both of us not want to bait things as much for fear of still being hit even in knowing.
  Now I realize online can never replace the experience of local versus nor do I expect it to, but these issues were pretty blatant and consistent among my overall experience so far. Note, there were times when deeper combos would magically work online all of a sudden, but it definitely wasn't a consistent thing at all. There were times when we literally stopped a match and said "let me try this on you" and things just weren't happening properly or consistently. This would also be the tale of the tape for playing individuals more distant, things would tend to be 50/50 in connections and playability overall. Realizing that obviously the farther apart you are & the difference in connections and such, the more room there is for lag and other nonsense to be displayed.  Even more distant 4bar connections would definitely suffer from slowdown, input lag, and such. This ultimately made for a not so pleasurable experience when trying to dig for a deeper much richer level of play. most of my matches I played turned into fireball fights and whiff punishing or punishing in general with  ex moves, supers,  and random supers being a very strong option. Strong combos and hd mode not even really being messed with at all, as it was just better to keep the bars for the occasional clean hit confirms into maybe, maybe not drive cancels and supers.
  The reason this is such a big deal is because KOF13 boast clean tight timing and rich deep combos on top of  spacing, positioning and honest punishing to really get things done properly. And none of it seems to be consistently achievable with the netcode the way it is. I would say the netcode is playable becuase you don't feel like you are suffering in movement and novice and scrubs wont really notice because the will rely on silly things to win most of their matches. But for those players who would really like to level up and play and get better are surely going to hit a wall sooner or later dealing with online.
 My score for the Netcode is 6.5. it's descent and working in a basic sense, but it clearly needs work and the work it needs I believe to be very doable.
  All in all, KoF13 is amazing and is fun to play. It's very well put together and a game any fighting game fan should own and support. I'm really glad it got this kind of effort put into it from Atlus and SNK, I just hope for the sake of this title it gets some upgrade to it's online play. Since most gamers these days just go off of word of mouth/ hear say and nothing else.

-Good Luck!

Watch Brawlers Up Tv http://www.twitch.tv/bangembanks (http://www.twitch.tv/bangembanks)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: BiGGDaddyCane on November 29, 2011, 11:59:38 PM
Good Shit on the Letter Nilcam  :)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mienaikage on November 30, 2011, 01:02:35 AM
Noticed today that when a lagspike occurs the game doesn't try to sync up mid-match. It will remain however many frames behind it is until the end of that round :/
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: R.E.L. on November 30, 2011, 06:58:33 AM
Dear lord I hope Atlus hears us!  Just attempted online play.  This game needs it!  I don't want to see KOF die because of bad netcode! 
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on November 30, 2011, 07:55:01 AM
Okay, I have to ask, are people becoming braindead?

I ask for 3 bars or higher (mostly because I'll never get 4 bars...yeah, I is sad), and yet constant 2 bars and 1 bars show up.  I kick them, and the same people KEEP COMING BACK IN.

You'd think the first time would be enough!
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: monster637 on November 30, 2011, 08:54:19 AM
Well i had my copy for ps3 for a few days and my xbox version came in the mail today....like most multiplayer games it plays much better on xboxlive, even tho it still sucks... still mostly all lobbies are 1 bar 2 bar rooms with people sitting demanding 4 bar conections that will never probably come
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Rex Dart on November 30, 2011, 11:17:07 AM
Today the game matched me against someone from Korea. I'm in Seattle.

What the hell.

At least I got to see Flame Iori in person. And I got to appreciate his qcf+P animation, as he spammed it over and over in slow motion.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Shiranui_ninja on November 30, 2011, 12:25:42 PM
FUCK THAT NETCODE.

Is all what I have to say.

My connection: ADSL 8-9 Mb. Wired

With spanish people (my country) I only have 2 bars. With France (very close to me) 2 bars. With UK people 1 bar. Is this a good netcode? NO.

I SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY AT LEAST WITH 3 BARS WITH EUROPEAN PEOPLE.

the game hasn't been released in Japan yet. I think we should wait. But then, SNKP needs to release a patch to fix this not good at all netcode.

I don't doubt 3 bars works fine. But I will not tolerate a game where I only have 2 bars with people of my region, when in other games liks SUPER STREET FIGHTER IV I can play without lag.

Is my last try with SNKPlaymore and KOF. If the online is not fixed, I just will leave KOF.
It has been too much time, too much energies, too much hype, too much hope. I'm tired, really tired. And I start thinking I should really transfer into another fighting game.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: arstal on November 30, 2011, 02:05:10 PM
The problem is the Japanese who find the netcode substandard will just play in arcades instead of complaining, so SNK probably won't hear too many complaints, and SNK probably would prefer it if people played in arcades intead.

I'm not expecting anything, and barring myself being proved wrong, as a 15-yr fan of SNK, I'll say enough's enough when I hit my last major in March, and without SNK, I'll likely see no reason to even continue with the competitive community.
I'll move on to other things.

Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 30, 2011, 02:21:16 PM
FUCK THAT NETCODE.

Is all what I have to say.

My connection: ADSL 8-9 Mb. Wired

With spanish people (my country) I only have 2 bars. With France (very close to me) 2 bars. With UK people 1 bar. Is this a good netcode? NO.

I SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY AT LEAST WITH 3 BARS WITH EUROPEAN PEOPLE.

the game hasn't been released in Japan yet. I think we should wait. But then, SNKP needs to release a patch to fix this not good at all netcode.

I don't doubt 3 bars works fine. But I will not tolerate a game where I only have 2 bars with people of my region, when in other games liks SUPER STREET FIGHTER IV I can play without lag.

Is my last try with SNKPlaymore and KOF. If the online is not fixed, I just will leave KOF.
It has been too much time, too much energies, too much hype, too much hope. I'm tired, really tired. And I start thinking I should really transfer into another fighting game.


You still have color edit mode  :).Glad to see people wake up and put some pressure where the real issues are.Personally i doubt playmore will fix this but... a tiny bit of hope still exists.
Last game i will ever buy from playmore.They promised a better online than ssf4.... so i don't think we ask too much from them.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 30, 2011, 03:07:43 PM
FUCK THAT NETCODE.

Is all what I have to say.

My connection: ADSL 8-9 Mb. Wired

With spanish people (my country) I only have 2 bars. With France (very close to me) 2 bars. With UK people 1 bar. Is this a good netcode? NO.

I SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY AT LEAST WITH 3 BARS WITH EUROPEAN PEOPLE.

the game hasn't been released in Japan yet. I think we should wait. But then, SNKP needs to release a patch to fix this not good at all netcode.

I don't doubt 3 bars works fine. But I will not tolerate a game where I only have 2 bars with people of my region, when in other games liks SUPER STREET FIGHTER IV I can play without lag.

Is my last try with SNKPlaymore and KOF. If the online is not fixed, I just will leave KOF.
It has been too much time, too much energies, too much hype, too much hope. I'm tired, really tired. And I start thinking I should really transfer into another fighting game.


Why do you blame the game for your ping times?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 30, 2011, 03:10:28 PM
FUCK THAT NETCODE.

Is all what I have to say.

My connection: ADSL 8-9 Mb. Wired

With spanish people (my country) I only have 2 bars. With France (very close to me) 2 bars. With UK people 1 bar. Is this a good netcode? NO.

I SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY AT LEAST WITH 3 BARS WITH EUROPEAN PEOPLE.

the game hasn't been released in Japan yet. I think we should wait. But then, SNKP needs to release a patch to fix this not good at all netcode.

I don't doubt 3 bars works fine. But I will not tolerate a game where I only have 2 bars with people of my region, when in other games liks SUPER STREET FIGHTER IV I can play without lag.

Is my last try with SNKPlaymore and KOF. If the online is not fixed, I just will leave KOF.
It has been too much time, too much energies, too much hype, too much hope. I'm tired, really tired. And I start thinking I should really transfer into another fighting game.


Why do you blame the game for your ping times?

To be honest he kinda has a shitty internet connexion.I had 1 bar with him in ssf4 .. .but it was more than playable with him.

I managed to borrow a copy of the game for a few hours and the netplay is shit.(my copy is stuck at the post office and i couldn't get it today and tomorrow is national fucking holiday).Friday i will post some vids with the online.

My connexion looks like this and i barely had 1 game in 10 which was decent.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1621192105.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)

Stop defending this netcode.I have a good connexion and i know shit netcode when i see one.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on November 30, 2011, 03:21:35 PM
Okay, I have to ask, are people becoming braindead?

I ask for 3 bars or higher (mostly because I'll never get 4 bars...yeah, I is sad), and yet constant 2 bars and 1 bars show up.  I kick them, and the same people KEEP COMING BACK IN.

You'd think the first time would be enough!

I'd bet on they are in the automatic match finding system. It throws you in whatever game they want and the idiots are probably either not paying attention to who you are or just think "Noone else is here just play me.". Don't think it's right but I notice a lot of it in this game.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Shiranui_ninja on November 30, 2011, 03:58:12 PM
Why do you blame the game for your ping times?
Because I can play other fighting games with my ping times without lag if I play against people of my region (europe). For example SSFIV. In KOF XIII I can't. If I have to have optic fibre 50Mb to play this KOF, then for me the game failed.

Simple as that, and your damage control is nonsense. You should wish the best for your favourite game, not trying to defend everything just because you like it or you have a huge connection.

To be honest he kinda has a shitty internet connexion.I had 1 bar with him in ssf4 .. .but it was more than playable with him
This is not true. i have change my internet company since the last time we played and now it's better. i have 12 Mb ADSL wired in my PS3. I think this is not a shitty connection. Maybe is not the best, but as I said I can play other games against UK and french people, and of course, spanish people. In KOF XIII I can't.

This is totally disappointing to me. you can consider me someone with a shitty online if you want, or even a troll if you want. But the truth is that, if KOF XIII online is not fixed I just will leave this game. I will start playing other fighting games like Soul Calibur 5 or Dead or live 5 or Skullgirls, which I have no doubt I will be able to play them without lag, and KOF will fall into oblivion for me.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 30, 2011, 04:06:36 PM
Nah i ain't trollin but with a wired connexion like that you should be able to play europe fine.I thought you had the same internets like last time.This is the reason i was bitching for almost half a year before the release but everybody was into that color edit mode bullshit.Maybe you can help me on friday to make some video testing with that online.Take care.

ps: hope you still have ssf4 or better yet umvc 3 for comparison
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: MUSOLINI on November 30, 2011, 04:07:18 PM
kbn, hit me up when your copy arrives.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 30, 2011, 04:11:13 PM
kbn, hit me up when your copy arrives.

friday i will send you a message via PSN.It would be cool to make an online test with you too.
If anyone located in europe would like to participate in this add me on PSN KausemoreDammage - friday night we do some testing.Don't forget to put them porn downloads on hold.
All willing to participate send me via PM your internet speed until friday if possible.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Shiranui_ninja on November 30, 2011, 04:13:27 PM
Nah i ain't trollin but with a wired connexion like that you should be able to play europe fine.I thought you had the same internets like last time.This is the reason i was bitching for almost half a year before the release but everybody was into that color edit mode bullshit.Maybe you can help me on friday to make some video testing with that online.Take care.

ps: hope you still have ssf4 or better yet umvc 3 for comparison

Yes, I still have SSFIV (but I forgot it how to play it lol). No UMvC3.
Let's test it on friday. Anyway, for what you say I think you have a very good connection, better than mine, so probably you will have less problems than me to find no-lag matches.

Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 30, 2011, 04:16:33 PM
Nah i ain't trollin but with a wired connexion like that you should be able to play europe fine.I thought you had the same internets like last time.This is the reason i was bitching for almost half a year before the release but everybody was into that color edit mode bullshit.Maybe you can help me on friday to make some video testing with that online.Take care.

ps: hope you still have ssf4 or better yet umvc 3 for comparison

Yes, I still have SSFIV (but I forgot it how to play it lol). No UMvC3.



I ll do basic button imput lag demonstration like we did with XII (no gaming skill required  :) ).Stick in front of the monitor and camera - if you have a headset it would help a lot
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Shiranui_ninja on November 30, 2011, 04:19:38 PM
if you have a headset it would help a lot
you mean microphone and all this stuff? No i don't. I don't play war games :P
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 30, 2011, 04:54:25 PM
if you have a headset it would help a lot
you mean microphone and all this stuff? No i don't. I don't play war games :P



LOL
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: ShinBlanka on November 30, 2011, 05:04:23 PM
i played deadly rave neo i had 2 bars but i believe he said that his internet was cause him some trouble so im not sure yet

DRN is my hommie and we live in the same state (Georgia) and we have 2 bar connections but he is the only person in Ga that i've ever had a 2 bar connect in Ga.  :(  It's always 3 or 4 bars with anyone in Ga or on the ec.  I've played a guy in canada with 3 bars and it was good.  3 bars is decent enought to counter jump ins with anti air special moves, but it's not good enough for the custom combo's imo.  online rapid  ;b is my friend. 

The netcode needs to be fixed/patched/upgraded for this game to have lasting power.  The great thing is KOF13 IS A GREAT FREAKING GAME!  That's why people want the netcode to be fixed because they want to see it have a longer tournament life than hdremix.

I'm on ps3=ShinBlanka is my gametag.  Hit me up if you want to play.  I'm still really new to this kof13 and i'm a console warrior.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Terrastorm on November 30, 2011, 05:09:00 PM
The problem is the Japanese who find the netcode substandard will just play in arcades instead of complaining, so SNK probably won't hear too many complaints, and SNK probably would prefer it if people played in arcades intead.

I'm not expecting anything, and barring myself being proved wrong, as a 15-yr fan of SNK, I'll say enough's enough when I hit my last major in March, and without SNK, I'll likely see no reason to even continue with the competitive community.
I'll move on to other things.



The arcade version is outdated though, so they might just bitch for an arcade update, instead of a netcode patch. :/
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Ashspiralingblood on November 30, 2011, 05:16:55 PM
Why exactly are you going to test the netcode when the general consensus says its bad
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Grokbu on November 30, 2011, 05:31:04 PM
Why exactly are you going to test the netcode when the general consensus says its bad
Well, there are a few who says they have great experiences with the netcode. And some who says that it sucks overall says that some connections can still be good. Doesn't hurt to try.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on November 30, 2011, 05:34:16 PM
Because US internet is pretty shitty from what i have seen in most cases posted here (speed test results), and for a good/optimal connexion both players must have good internet speed.I want to be fair to this game - and maybe provide some useful feedback for future improvement/patch of this netcode if any atlus guys roam this forums (or even post it on their forums).
Many people have said ssf4 netcode was shitty in the beginning.. .some even now - but that is because they have wireless and bad internet.I do not want to defend this garbage netcode by any means (it clearly needs some work) but as i said i want to provide feedback not to just say it sucks.


If i could find 2-3 people with my internet speed based in europe it would be perfect.With that ping and speed any good netcode has to run more than decent.
I am a bit confused about how many good connexions poongko had on his stream and he did all those combos - which are impractical with imput lag.


PS: Sabin have you tried KOF XIII with someone who also has fios?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sabin on November 30, 2011, 07:14:05 PM
Yeah I tried that day 1. It barely lags at all when it's Fiber to Fiber as I said from the get go.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Sanger Zonvolt on November 30, 2011, 07:34:45 PM
I played Midwest to East coast, and I've had some pretty great connections at times, so it's not bad.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Ironreaver on November 30, 2011, 07:49:55 PM
FUCK THAT NETCODE.

Is all what I have to say.

My connection: ADSL 8-9 Mb. Wired

With spanish people (my country) I only have 2 bars. With France (very close to me) 2 bars. With UK people 1 bar. Is this a good netcode? NO.

I SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY AT LEAST WITH 3 BARS WITH EUROPEAN PEOPLE.

the game hasn't been released in Japan yet. I think we should wait. But then, SNKP needs to release a patch to fix this not good at all netcode.

I don't doubt 3 bars works fine. But I will not tolerate a game where I only have 2 bars with people of my region, when in other games liks SUPER STREET FIGHTER IV I can play without lag.

Is my last try with SNKPlaymore and KOF. If the online is not fixed, I just will leave KOF.
It has been too much time, too much energies, too much hype, too much hope. I'm tired, really tired. And I start thinking I should really transfer into another fighting game.


Why do you blame the game for your ping times?

To be honest he kinda has a shitty internet connexion.I had 1 bar with him in ssf4 .. .but it was more than playable with him.

I managed to borrow a copy of the game for a few hours and the netplay is shit.(my copy is stuck at the post office and i couldn't get it today and tomorrow is national fucking holiday).Friday i will post some vids with the online.

My connexion looks like this and i barely had 1 game in 10 which was decent.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1621192105.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)

Stop defending this netcode.I have a good connexion and i know shit netcode when i see one.


Gonna be upgrading to 50Mbps this weekend....you still say its pretty bad in terms of matches tho with that much  :(
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on November 30, 2011, 09:01:42 PM
I'm waiting for the flames, but I wonder what everyone is expecting. Flawless connection has not been invented yet. You either get what Street Fighter IV provides with a game speed that does not feel stable and for a game like KOF would cause havoc, or you get a connection like Street Fighter 3rd Strike where the connection gets jittery and you have teleporting characters.

The fact of the matter is KOF is a VERY lag sensitive game with commands and motions that have to be done with very little room for error. The newest Capcom games are not like that. They work on a more simplistic level and lag does not kill the game. The closest we have seen to a Capcom game that plays like KOF is 3rd Strike and I have played games that were jittery with a green connection, let alone yellow or red.

We are using a machine that is 5 years old at least. It's not going to work as well as a computer that you bought from the store more recently would. There are simply limitations to what we can probably expect. Let alone people's upload speeds in many places are non existent even though they say 8 Meg download, if your upload cannot handle the traffic then you might as well have 1 meg download. Playmore have tinkered with the KOF 2002UM netcode for around 2 months now. If you think they found a magical connection for the harder to establish connections, wouldn't you think they would have used it on KOF XIII by now?

Flame this all you want cause I have seen so many times, but sooner or later I'd love to see more realistic complaints sent to Playmore so the minor things that they CAN fix can get worked out instead of trashing a game that fails online cause it was never really ment to be played competitively online.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Rex Dart on November 30, 2011, 09:42:18 PM
^ There's some truth in what he says.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Terrastorm on November 30, 2011, 09:56:26 PM
^ There's some truth in what he says.

Which kinda goes down the drain when you consider Arcana Heart 3.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: arstal on November 30, 2011, 10:04:04 PM
I've played DRN in a bunch of games, never had lag problems despite his ghetto internet, though I do live fairly close.

Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on November 30, 2011, 10:20:33 PM
Problem is noobs never use the delay increase feature ggpo and SF3OE has, and keep on 0 or 1, so when a high ping guy plays them, it starts to frameskip.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on November 30, 2011, 10:31:06 PM
Which kinda goes down the drain when you consider Arcana Heart 3.

Arcana Heart 3 works like Arc System games. Less frames less loading easier to put a decent netcode on.

Problem is noobs never use the delay increase feature ggpo and SF3OE has, and keep on 0 or 1, so when a high ping guy plays them, it starts to frameskip.

That's a major complaint about ranked matches in KOF XIII. The delay increase is at 1/10 to 1/4 of a second, but because KOF is what it is the players are pitching a fit.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: StickyStaines on November 30, 2011, 11:00:04 PM
Which kinda goes down the drain when you consider Arcana Heart 3.

Arcana Heart 3 works like Arc System games. Less frames less loading easier to put a decent netcode on.

Less frames? The game plays locally, you only send your inputs to the opponent, which is like a few kB/s of data, if that.

The fact of the matter is that other games have managed to implement decent netcode to the average player. What does it matter testing against two optimal connections, when that will hardly EVER happen for the average person? You cant say its good netcode when only a few people can play against each other perfectly under proper conditions. You might as well just meet up at that point.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: nilcam on November 30, 2011, 11:02:13 PM
Mr Bakaboy is hitting on something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. The old KOFs on NeoGeo Station run amazingly well but those games are far less intensive games. Would that help them on the online play? Also, I cannot help but think that the more lenient input windows on current fighters does a better job of hiding input lag.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: MUSOLINI on November 30, 2011, 11:18:43 PM
hey i tried playing some guys with 3 bar and it was actually playable. there is some minor input delay but def playable. you will drop some combos etc and at times be late with that last sec dp. maybe 4 bars is actually on par with ssf4.

Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on November 30, 2011, 11:30:14 PM
Mr Bakaboy is hitting on something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. The old KOFs on NeoGeo Station run amazingly well but those games are far less intensive games. Would that help them on the online play? Also, I cannot help but think that the more lenient input windows on current fighters does a better job of hiding input lag.

The leniency of the windows and the fact that the timing on the combos are delayed compared to KOF really helps. Personally I have a hellacious time playing SSFIV cause of how they mask lag. Didn't understand why till I played a high level offline match. I'm too used to KOF style of play (hyper sensitive timing) when I try to implement the same thing online it really screws with me.

If you've seen the interviews with Harada (Tekken) talking about GGPO he plainly says the major problem is all the data being shipped over the internet is a real problem when the game is so large. I'm sure KOF XIII is starting to fall in this category.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Gramas on December 01, 2011, 12:47:00 AM
Netcode is trash

Its realy realy fucking annoying when It lags against someone who usualy I have a "like offline" connection In blazblue

(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1622236133.png)

this is a fiber connection(and this is the best connection Italy has to offer) and my opponent has the same connection(same isp)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mazinkaiser on December 01, 2011, 12:54:47 AM
Italy sucks too... the situation is tragic -.-, lag and impossible to synch too sometimes :\ with two of the best connection avaiable here (Fastweb) the netplay still sucks =.=,

Milan:
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1622227209.png)
Rome:
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1622236133.png)

We are missing something... but isn't this a server side problem? i guess... behind xbl base microsoft server, the machine for the "matchmaking" operation is loaded on a kind of snkp infrastructure isn't it? so where is it located ?.?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on December 01, 2011, 12:56:54 AM
Netcode is trash

Its realy realy fucking annoying when It lags against someone who usualy I have a "like offline" connection In blazblue


Arcana Heart 3 works like Arc System games. Less frames less loading easier to put a decent netcode on.

Blazblue = Arc System works game.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: sw1tch on December 01, 2011, 04:24:39 AM
To people saying it's fine with optic fiber it's not true
Here is my connect 100mb optic fiber and I'm in europe.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1620593726.png)
and yet I still have input delay, and I tested playing with a friend who live in the same town and with fiber too.
Sure it's "playable" but  you can't be serious about it.
I just think some people can't notice lag even if they had 200 ping really..
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Emperor Paine on December 01, 2011, 05:39:21 AM
I live in Las Vegas, NV and even playing a friend of mine who lives in Kingmen, AZ we were getting hit by lag spikes throughout a few matches. 2 bar and lower is impossible to play. 3 bar and higher is the only way to play.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on December 01, 2011, 05:44:09 AM
To people saying it's fine with optic fiber it's not true
Here is my connect 100mb optic fiber and I'm in europe.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1620593726.png)
and yet I still have input delay, and I tested playing with a friend who live in the same town and with fiber too.
Sure it's "playable" but  you can't be serious about it.
I just think some people can't notice lag even if they had 200 ping really..


When will people understand that what kind of internet speed is irrelevant, it's your ping times what matters.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: thec0re3 on December 01, 2011, 06:02:10 AM
To people saying it's fine with optic fiber it's not true
Here is my connect 100mb optic fiber and I'm in europe.
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1620593726.png)
and yet I still have input delay, and I tested playing with a friend who live in the same town and with fiber too.
Sure it's "playable" but  you can't be serious about it.
I just think some people can't notice lag even if they had 200 ping really..


When will people understand that what kind of internet speed is irrelevant, it's your ping times what matters.

We can keep with the ping and speed and on on and on but at the end of the day its about what kind of experience are you having with local, regional, etc.. and I'm in agreement that even with local play my experience has not been satisfactory. There  needs to be an improvement to the netcode that just the sum of it.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: BioBooster on December 01, 2011, 06:36:45 AM
Have we had any responses to the letter yet?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: k4 on December 01, 2011, 08:01:03 AM
These guys Mazinkaiser and Gramas already showed us the truth. Even with those godlike connections, the online sucks. And I was still hoping for the best trying to find 4 bar players with wired connections and decent ping. I have 20 mbps download and 2mbps upload, with ping 17.
KOF XIII ... the future is ... not now ... YET! =(
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Shiranui_ninja on December 01, 2011, 11:24:47 AM
Yesterday I could play a 3 bar match. It was good. Not perfect but very playable, i really enjoyed. Too bad is so hard to find 3 bars matches.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mazinkaiser on December 01, 2011, 12:13:41 PM
Yesterday I could play a 3 bar match. It was good. Not perfect but very playable, i really enjoyed. Too bad is so hard to find 3 bars matches.

occasionally (very rare) i got playable game too... but still kinda sucks, i'm almost certain of what i post already... some shit happen with matchmaking server side... maybe they reply the letter, i hope xD
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on December 01, 2011, 12:48:20 PM
In player match, if you go to quick match and pick a person who has a lag connection of 3 or higher it has been fine. When you show up in the match, the bars might be as low as 2, but the original lag connection bars are usually right and the game plays fine.

The problem I am finding is a person joins your room and what the screen says is not necessarily the case. A 2 bar might be better then a 3 bar depending on how stable the connection is. This is way too confusing for many (myself included) to deal with.

Also the ranked match experience is just not up to par. The automatic input delay does not do enough to fix any problems and it's just not as easy to find good connections as player match is. If you want to keep the players anonymous, then just show the lag connection bars on the quick match screen. If someone picks create match then they get what they get to a certain extent, but it would be nice for the connection bars to give an accurate examination of the lag. Personally THIS is what I want to see fixed.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: IceWater on December 01, 2011, 03:08:48 PM
Have we had any responses to the letter yet?

http://atlus.com/forum/showpost.php?p=272039&postcount=189 (http://atlus.com/forum/showpost.php?p=272039&postcount=189)

This is all we got so far.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: sw1tch on December 01, 2011, 03:16:09 PM
When will people understand that what kind of internet speed is irrelevant, it's your ping times what matters.
Where did I say otherwise? If you can look closely it say what my ping is, 5ms, so it's very low, I don't understand what you are trying to do here...
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: ZeroSoulreaver on December 01, 2011, 05:32:12 PM
They "are aware it exists" but are they planning on doing anything about it?  I mean that is the question at the end of the day.  I don't like when people don't give simple answers to easy questions or issues :(.  Not trying to be a jerk, but I think we deserve more than that.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: IceWater on December 01, 2011, 06:20:37 PM
They "are aware it exists" but are they planning on doing anything about it?  I mean that is the question at the end of the day.  I don't like when people don't give simple answers to easy questions or issues :(.  Not trying to be a jerk, but I think we deserve more than that.

I definitely feel the same way, and I imagine most of the people on this site do too. At the least they could let us know that they're trying to talk to SNKP about it, which is probably all Atlus can do anyways.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on December 01, 2011, 07:08:24 PM
I think they have nothing they can say at this point. Atlus is not responsible for the netcode. Playmore is. If this works like Ignition and KOF XII, then they have to go up the chain of command notifying people from Playmore that this is a serious issue. Last time it took months before anything happened.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on December 01, 2011, 07:10:03 PM
When will people understand that what kind of internet speed is irrelevant, it's your ping times what matters.
Where did I say otherwise? If you can look closely it say what my ping is, 5ms, so it's very low, I don't understand what you are trying to do here...


Your 5ms means nothing, it's the ping you have related to the person playing against you what matters, and it differs with the distance.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on December 01, 2011, 07:55:25 PM
There are a lot of factors that go into lag, but I agree that ping between 2 players is a great tell tale sign of the match you are probably going to see.

To say how crazy it can get, I have played on Supercade and had matches with no serious lag with players from Japan and Russia, but had plenty of lag from a guy 2 states over from me. Now this guy can play somebody else and have no serious lag between those 2 players, but we have issues connecting.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on December 01, 2011, 08:09:57 PM
I'm starting to think there might be some "host advantage" in online play. Because when I have hosted, I feel I can pull my combos easier than when I'm the 2nd player for some odd reason.

Several times when I'm the challenger, the first player is able to pull most of his combos even with lag. But in my case, I'm missing them a lot, even the simple ones.

Also I haven't been playing online on my PS3, since I'm not at my house and I'm using my nephew PS3 to play, but I still find this quite odd.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on December 01, 2011, 08:26:10 PM
^ I haven't seen it, but I'm on xbox. I've played the 2 player side and it seems pretty even on both sides lag wise.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on December 01, 2011, 08:27:38 PM
Yeah uh, it'd be seemingly annoying to test whether there is host advantage or not.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mienaikage on December 01, 2011, 08:43:27 PM
I guess it's worth testing, but I'm willing to bet that host advantage is negligible if not non-existent in a game with 2 people.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on December 01, 2011, 09:00:54 PM
Yeah, like I said, I'm not at my house, so I'm not in my environment to be sure. But if there is a host advantage, its minimal, but enough to throw you off.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: ZeroSoulreaver on December 01, 2011, 09:58:21 PM
I take back what I said about an hour or so ago.  They have just responded about the netcode and thank goodness for that.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Gramas on December 01, 2011, 10:51:26 PM
I'm starting to think there might be some "host advantage" in online play. Because when I have hosted, I feel I can pull my combos easier than when I'm the 2nd player for some odd reason.
This would be too retarded

This usualy happens when the netcode is build around a game wich is not supposed to be played 1v1(team based fps)but instead its usualy played on a dedicated server,it would mean that they totaly failed the netcode.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Ky0 on December 01, 2011, 11:30:44 PM
Hmm, a Netcode improvement, sounds great!
Thanks ATLUS & SNKP!
 :)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Emperor Paine on December 02, 2011, 01:02:57 AM
so I just had a FT10 with a guy from Hawaii and even through the room showed 3bars it dropped to 2bar. Funny thing is though, it was still playing like a 3bar connection. He told me that there are alot of cable lines in Hawaii for great internet. Here in Vegas we got cox, which is solid for internet and gaming. these matches where also on 360 though and I've heard PSN  everyone is pretty much a 2bar.

From what the guy was saying the 2bar connection on PSN is much different than on 360. so that can also be a major factor for many players. not to mention what type of internet connection each player has.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Violent Kain on December 02, 2011, 01:22:01 AM
Searching over the internet, i've found this article info about how ggpo works http://skullgirls.com/2011/09/skullgirls-ggpo-and-you/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=skullgirls-ggpo-and-you (http://skullgirls.com/2011/09/skullgirls-ggpo-and-you/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=skullgirls-ggpo-and-you)

It would be awesome if SNKP implements anything similar (similar, not GGPO), i wouldn't be bothered about rollbacks if just i could move my character in the time it is supposed to be moving.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on December 02, 2011, 01:30:43 AM
While it could be cool, I doubt it could be implemented in XIII at this stage considering...you know, the game is already released.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on December 02, 2011, 03:31:53 AM
Searching over the internet, i've found this article info about how ggpo works http://skullgirls.com/2011/09/skullgirls-ggpo-and-you/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=skullgirls-ggpo-and-you (http://skullgirls.com/2011/09/skullgirls-ggpo-and-you/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=skullgirls-ggpo-and-you)

It would be awesome if SNKP implements anything similar (similar, not GGPO), i wouldn't be bothered about rollbacks if just i could move my character in the time it is supposed to be moving.

What do you guys think?

You can adjust delay increasing it in very minor quantities (two frames work for up to 200ms) and it runs smooth. Developers can't build anything else but delay free netcodes nowadays, otherwise it's trash.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: monster637 on December 02, 2011, 08:08:00 AM


so I just had a FT10 with a guy from Hawaii and even through the room showed 3bars it dropped to 2bar. Funny thing is though, it was still playing like a 3bar connection. He told me that there are alot of cable lines in Hawaii for great internet. Here in Vegas we got cox, which is solid for internet and gaming. these matches where also on 360 though and I've heard PSN  everyone is pretty much a 2bar.

From what the guy was saying the 2bar connection on PSN is much different than on 360. so that can also be a major factor for many players. not to mention what type of internet connection each player has.


 Bahahahaha that was me, yes most rooms that show 3 bars when entered turns into 2,, thats why  left , then came back and then said fuck it, you were my best bet, and with my lack of time to even put in this game or learn the chars or even realize what other cast can do...i thought the matchs i played today were working much better then other days,, seems as more people come online and are hearing word of mouth are nabbing a copy, its getting easier to find decent matchs and yes my ps3 2 bar matchs would play like a real 2 bar match,

for a room i entered at 3 bars and said 2 when i was in the room, i felt there was not much input delay, id did not stop you from beating the shit out of me and my problem is just learning the chars and mashing!!!

And yeah must of the island are all timewarner cable , roadrunner turbo. not many dsl users here, if they have interwebs it usually road runner!!

Hoping tomorrow and future i have more time to actually learn my team..... or find who i even want on my team,

So on xbox it hard to say whats gonna be what by that bar meter.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on December 02, 2011, 03:40:49 PM
Around midnight (EET time) i will be on PSN for a first round to test the netcode.If anyone here from europe want to participate add me on PSN.
Wired connexions if possible and with the game installed on the harddrive (go to options/system options/ install) - I wonder why this game doesn't ask you when you put the game in for the first time if you wish to install....

(http://www.pingtest.net/result/51709610.png) (http://www.pingtest.net)
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1625391671.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)

Test with server in France
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/1625398434.png) (http://www.speedtest.net)

Usually at night my connexion is a little better
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: MUSOLINI on December 02, 2011, 04:59:56 PM
if i dont go out ill play you, otherwise i might see you laterish like in the morning. if im drunk have some mercy on me.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: KBlackNoah on December 02, 2011, 05:02:29 PM
LOL i just got the game this afternoon so don't expect too much from me.I just want to test the netcode - after a few days i can play serious  ;)
I might be a bit drunk as well so no problems there
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: solidshark on December 02, 2011, 07:14:42 PM
Played about 50+ matches with opponents in Japan, including BioBooster (ggs man)

All 3 bars (since it's Japan, might see a lot of 3 bars)

This is my current speed test, but planning to get it upgraded soon
(http://speedtest.net/result/1625774566.png)

Of all the matches I played, only 4 experienced any kind of lag, at least that's how it felt on my end.

Plan to test things with US or Canadian players soon. If there are any takers, let me know.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: monster637 on December 02, 2011, 07:38:15 PM
Played about 50+ matches with opponents in Japan, including BioBooster (ggs man)

All 3 bars (since it's Japan, might see a lot of 3 bars)

This is my current speed test, but planning to get it upgraded soon
(http://speedtest.net/result/1625774566.png)

Of all the matches I played, only 4 experienced any kind of lag, at least that's how it felt on my end.

Plan to test things with US or Canadian players soon. If there are any takers, let me know.
  You can add me im monster637 on both consoles, and im in the middle of the pacific hawaii the bridge im guessing from japan to hawaii to cali is what i figured is the route of the under ground lines across the pacific..

i was actually speed testing my network to japan last night to see what my ping is to them vs the west coast of the united states..

Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Rex Dart on December 02, 2011, 08:37:42 PM
Played about 50+ matches with opponents in Japan, including BioBooster (ggs man)

All 3 bars (since it's Japan, might see a lot of 3 bars)

--snip--

Of all the matches I played, only 4 experienced any kind of lag, at least that's how it felt on my end.

Plan to test things with US or Canadian players soon. If there are any takers, let me know.

Something tells me Japanese players aren't going to be complaining about the netcode in any great force. Japan is just too lucky sometimes.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: solidshark on December 02, 2011, 09:20:12 PM
Something tells me Japanese players aren't going to be complaining about the netcode in any great force. Japan is just too lucky sometimes.

They just might complain, espeically if they want to fight some of their international rivals (assuming they want to online). And after dealing with all sorts of wonky GGPO, Capcom, and even Arksys connections, my tolerance for lag might be higher than most.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Emperor Paine on December 03, 2011, 02:12:59 AM
Well i just had a match with a guy from France. Ugh, that was horrible. I had to really focus on my input for moves to come out. In a surprise note though, it wasn't so much and lag spikes hitting as it was sluggish movements. All character felt really heavy. Almost as if the game was trying really hard to correct itself.

Also Monster gg's we gotta do more once you have a team assembled.

I would like to fight a few people east coast on 360 and see how things fair.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: monster637 on December 03, 2011, 11:18:32 AM
just seeing some other country internet makes me cring shark has horrible net for japan,,, but most of us are screwed by are upload limits and im stuck in the15/1 ....1 for freaking upload  on roadrunner turbo,, i see alot here with the same. but then i see some foreigners that have tremendous upload to match there download,,

went and checked And my provider TW has now added 2 more premium ranks 35/5 and 50 /5

I dont really need 50 down load , but the 5 mb up would really improve all games with moving packet data and bring down pings,, problem is seems they dont have self install kits and need new docsis 3.0 modem  from them. im still rocking there webstar modem and i think they are insisting on you have to have the dude come hook it up

roadrunner xtreme 35 download and 5 upload

or 50 down 5 up widerange package....... i just dont get why there so stingy with upload here in america , it should be a balance 15 down and 15 up or atleast 5-10
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on December 03, 2011, 11:35:18 AM
A lot of the high upload bandwidth users comes from DSL. Very High Data rate DSL (VDSL) has that capability, however it's pretty new and the internet providers are lazy about updating their phone lines. My roommate who's a computer programmer was chatting with me about that yesterday.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: BioBooster on December 03, 2011, 01:35:26 PM
Played about 50+ matches with opponents in Japan, including BioBooster (ggs man)

All 3 bars (since it's Japan, might see a lot of 3 bars)

This is my current speed test, but planning to get it upgraded soon
(http://speedtest.net/result/1625774566.png)

Of all the matches I played, only 4 experienced any kind of lag, at least that's how it felt on my end.

Plan to test things with US or Canadian players soon. If there are any takers, let me know.

ggs dude. Heh, yeah we played like 30+ straight - awesome fun :)

I'll be testing a bit more today, will try to find international matches if I can.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on December 06, 2011, 08:04:43 AM
Ok something fucking off happened. I played a friend from my town, which is like 3 hrs from where I am right now.

We were having some desync problems, on the 3rd match, I picked Iori, Ash and Benimaru. But he told me I was using King, Mai and Benimaru. And we were playing like nothing, I was winning on my screen and he was winning on his. I beat him up on my screen, send me to save replay and all. Ones I got to the lobby he wasn't there anymore.

This got us completely off guard, it was so damn weird since he was moving and all and I was moving on his screen too, but we had different characters. The bar connection showed 3, but for some reason caused this weird mixup of characters. I can confirm he wasn't messing around with me, for 2 reasons, 1. he likes KOF and he is serious about fighting games like me and 2. He put his headset on the TV and I could hear Mai when I attacked and I did the same and he heard Iori. This was whack as hell! lol
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Rex Dart on December 06, 2011, 08:33:23 AM
Ok something fucking off happened. I played a friend from my town, which is like 3 hrs from where I am right now.

We were having some desync problems, on the 3rd match, I picked Iori, Ash and Benimaru. But he told me I was using King, Mai and Benimaru. And we were playing like nothing, I was winning on my screen and he was winning on his. I beat him up on my screen, send me to save replay and all. Ones I got to the lobby he wasn't there anymore.

This got us completely off guard, it was so damn weird since he was moving and all and I was moving on his screen too, but we had different characters. The bar connection showed 3, but for some reason caused this weird mixup of characters. I can confirm he wasn't messing around with me, for 2 reasons, 1. he likes KOF and he is serious about fighting games like me and 2. He put his headset on the TV and I could hear Mai when I attacked and I did the same and he heard Iori. This was whack as hell! lol

Damn. I heard similar stories about KOF XII's netcode, but never honestly believed them. That's seriously crazy.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on December 06, 2011, 08:55:09 AM
Ok something fucking off happened. I played a friend from my town, which is like 3 hrs from where I am right now.

We were having some desync problems, on the 3rd match, I picked Iori, Ash and Benimaru. But he told me I was using King, Mai and Benimaru. And we were playing like nothing, I was winning on my screen and he was winning on his. I beat him up on my screen, send me to save replay and all. Ones I got to the lobby he wasn't there anymore.

This got us completely off guard, it was so damn weird since he was moving and all and I was moving on his screen too, but we had different characters. The bar connection showed 3, but for some reason caused this weird mixup of characters. I can confirm he wasn't messing around with me, for 2 reasons, 1. he likes KOF and he is serious about fighting games like me and 2. He put his headset on the TV and I could hear Mai when I attacked and I did the same and he heard Iori. This was whack as hell! lol

You sir win the weirdest glitch award. In all my time online I have never heard of that one before.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on December 06, 2011, 09:07:32 AM
Damn. I heard similar stories about KOF XII's netcode, but never honestly believed them. That's seriously crazy.


Really? Didn't know XII suffered the same issue, never happened to me in XII.

You sir win the weirdest glitch award. In all my time online I have never heard of that one before.

I know! lol
I must say, this was a hilarious experience for me. But needed to document it and put it here, since we must tell SNKP of this possible scenario, even if it's uncommon. Dunno what was the cause, but damn, it was weird, but it gave me and my friend a good laugh.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: pablofsi on December 06, 2011, 03:51:34 PM
It's called desyncing, it happens when one of the players has an unstable connection with packet loss or something like that.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on December 06, 2011, 04:27:09 PM
^Well we experienced Desyncing in previews matches, the character we were fighting will stop moving in our screens, but the ones we controlled could still move, then the game will say the connection was lost. But I'm surprised the game managed to select different characters and keep us fighting. We didn't even have a disconnection like other Desynchronizations.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: sociald on December 07, 2011, 11:29:38 AM
did anyone noticea delay switching guard from crouch guard to standing guard ?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: nilcam on December 07, 2011, 03:36:51 PM
Honestly, when the netcode is handling things well, it is GOOD. I played 16 matches with a guy last night on a 3 bar and it was like butter. We were both getting more confident with each game and, by the final set, we were both working on some fairly complex combos.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: MUSOLINI on December 07, 2011, 06:40:39 PM
even at 3 bars it only seems like butter, theres input delay.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Terrastorm on December 08, 2011, 12:13:11 AM
even at 3 bars it only seems like butter, theres input delay.
It seems that the quality of 3 bar connections may vary.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on December 08, 2011, 12:18:50 AM
even at 3 bars it only seems like butter, theres input delay.
It seems that the quality of 3 bar connections may vary.

Yeah, I'm guessing that in the Ping Range in the 3 Bar connections, the cutoff point from a meh connection to a good one is in there.

So like if it was say, 50-150 (just throwing out numbers, I can't think completely straight after meals for some reason), 100-150 would be meh, but from 50-99 would be playable let's say, but they're all under the 3 bar range, which brings this response from me...GIVE US PING NUMBERS!
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mazinkaiser on December 08, 2011, 02:20:11 AM
i'm making so better netplay match in these day... luck? 3 bars == good play, feel a little lag but sure not unplayable like before... we can do HD combos!!
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: LouisCipher on December 08, 2011, 06:56:06 AM
Had a decent night. Found one guy who's very good, but it was slightly laggy, and got pretty bad in our 3rd set at one point but cleared it self up after the next round.

It started desyncing from matches again. I'd go into Friend Match, create match, and 3 guys tried to join, we'd go to the character select and it would spend about 20 seconds saying 'synchronization' and then it would fail and go back to the menu. Then I tried joining a few matches and the same thing happened.

I had to unplug my modem and restart my PS3 and it finally started to work. I've never had this issue with any other game.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on December 08, 2011, 01:01:55 PM
I just wish their bar rating system worked. I've had many good and bad matches, but you never know what you are going to get till you start the match. That's frustrating. At least the dropping has slowed down a little. It was every 3rd match for me for a while.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: MUSOLINI on December 08, 2011, 06:54:21 PM
even at 3 bars it only seems like butter, theres input delay.
It seems that the quality of 3 bar connections may vary.

Yeah, I'm guessing that in the Ping Range in the 3 Bar connections, the cutoff point from a meh connection to a good one is in there.

So like if it was say, 50-150 (just throwing out numbers, I can't think completely straight after meals for some reason), 100-150 would be meh, but from 50-99 would be playable let's say, but they're all under the 3 bar range, which brings this response from me...GIVE USPING NUMBERS!

even with the best 3 bar, ther is still noticeable input delay. it's playable though, but not great. good luck hitting those 1 nd 2 framers online, or at times timing a reversal wake up dp or dm.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: desmond_kof on December 08, 2011, 08:18:54 PM
I played with a friend that lives 4-5 miles away (basically one freeway exit) and we had green bar connection. There was some strong noticeable delay, and I had trouble doing combos and blocking crossups on time. The delay stayed steady but it was noticeable and I wasn't confident in doing combos, so the matches we had didn't feel honest.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on December 08, 2011, 09:02:39 PM
Well SNKP is already working on the patch, hopefully all that has been written here helps them.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Ironreaver on December 08, 2011, 10:13:39 PM
Yea I just read the news that they are working a patch...hopefully it helps improve the online.  Tekken 6 had this same issue when it first released and Namco did a patch update that really improve the online.  It's good to know they responded so promptly with it too.  probably wont see it til Jan or early Feb tho...Mar if they really take some time with it. As long as I know its coming i'm ok with.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: nars on December 09, 2011, 10:54:19 AM
Great to know that they're working on a patch.

I live in Hawaii and just played a good friend that resides in L.A.,CA

We had 2 bars and the games were disappointing. I didn't mind since I'm fairly new to this game.
The weird thing is - when we play 3S online (xbox on both games) our connection is near flawless. We pulled out red parries without hesitation.

I really do hope that the fix helps out. Online is a huge thing for me considering I don't really have anyone else to play locally. This game is too fun for me to stop playing, and I just need someone to play it with.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: monster637 on December 12, 2011, 04:33:20 PM
Great to know that they're working on a patch.

I live in Hawaii and just played a good friend that resides in L.A.,CA

We had 2 bars and the games were disappointing. I didn't mind since I'm fairly new to this game.
The weird thing is - when we play 3S online (xbox on both games) our connection is near flawless. We pulled out red parries without hesitation.

I really do hope that the fix helps out. Online is a huge thing for me considering I don't really have anyone else to play locally. This game is too fun for me to stop playing, and I just need someone to play it with.
Im on oahu , You on psn or xbox, i have it for both but i play mostly on xbox as most fighting games for me play a bit better online threw xbox live....my  gamertags on both systems are monster637
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Ironreaver on December 12, 2011, 05:57:48 PM
Great to know that they're working on a patch.

I live in Hawaii and just played a good friend that resides in L.A.,CA

We had 2 bars and the games were disappointing. I didn't mind since I'm fairly new to this game.
The weird thing is - when we play 3S online (xbox on both games) our connection is near flawless. We pulled out red parries without hesitation.

I really do hope that the fix helps out. Online is a huge thing for me considering I don't really have anyone else to play locally. This game is too fun for me to stop playing, and I just need someone to play it with.
Im on oahu , You on psn or xbox, i have it for both but i play mostly on xbox as most fighting games for me play a bit better online threw xbox live....my  gamertags on both systems are monster637

Monster and Nars i'm also in oahu and me.  We should try to met up for some offline sessions too.  nars i believe we met in the 808 FB group also.  glad to see some more KOF players out in Hawaii
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: sociald on December 15, 2011, 11:31:01 AM
by my experience the worst problem is the delay to switch block from down to up and viceversa. plus is very hard to hitconfirm from lows cause frequently the timing turn in a mess (i started to dont use vice online cause of lag) of course this must be a consequence of input delay it seems very similar to mvc3 online which was pretty unplayable
im playin the most with french ppl and connection with 3 bars and im from italy
fockin patch is needed asap
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: MUSOLINI on December 15, 2011, 07:07:43 PM
vice is the best character online, especially with lag. dp+P becomes an instant throw from far and reversal against her after a knockdown is xtra hard to time with lag.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on December 15, 2011, 07:21:19 PM
vice is the best character online, especially with lag. dp+P becomes an instant throw from far and reversal against her after a knockdown is xtra hard to time with lag.

But aren't her even meh combos online really annoying to execute?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: sociald on December 15, 2011, 09:58:49 PM
vice online ? c mon is unplayable
no hitconfirms from c.B allowed, ppl in eternal c.block cause they r scared to jump cd and u cant even run and do 1 frame throw. overhead comes out everytime except when u want it. HD combos ? yeah right ... and vice is one of the most easiest to do combos with but not online. s.A AA or to prevent hop ? overhead comes out. s.A after shoulder ? never ... really it is not the best choice for online play considering u must have a great use of space timing adn whatever, u cant base ur game just on random splashes
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: LouisCipher on December 17, 2011, 05:18:08 AM
Can anyone pull off combos consistently in Green Bars?
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on December 17, 2011, 05:21:47 AM
Can anyone pull off combos consistently in Green Bars?

Define combos. Because I can pull my "simple" combos in the corner. Stuff like K typical combo with EX qcb+K DC and or c.LKx2>qcf+K>u+K with Benimaru, etc.

Now if you say HD combos... then we might have some problems there.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: LouisCipher on December 17, 2011, 05:25:38 AM
Basic combos. I can rarely, rarely combo into Clark's command grab online. I thought it was me just learning but in every Green connection I've rarely been able to combo, and I know I'm doing it right and can pull it off 9 times out of 10 offline.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on December 17, 2011, 05:31:01 AM
You having problems doing hcf+K? Or the supers?

I played today with Clark against a friend and I had no problems pulling out his stuff, not even his (b~f+LP)x2 and we were 2 bars.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: LouisCipher on December 17, 2011, 05:33:57 AM
Well, let's say I do standing C into D SAB or EX. I can never, never cancel the first hit of the Standing C into the grab. So I started doing standing D and same problem. I know how to combo it, I can pull off easy 900 damage Neomax combos with 5 bars and etc offline. But online I rarely get my combo.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: nilcam on December 17, 2011, 05:58:41 AM
I've found I cannot even do Vice's qcb+C, qcf+C on 3 bars. I've decided to take a break from online until the patch so I can properly learn the game.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: DarKaoZ on December 17, 2011, 06:20:42 AM
Hmm... I rarely do combos into grabs with Clark, I don't really play him well IMO, but I have managed to pull out Beni s.D>hcb~f+PP. But just like you, in a less consecutive way, it's harder to pull attacks to Command Grabs online.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: arstal on December 17, 2011, 08:29:19 PM
Just had a 4 bar match central NC- somewhere in TN.

It was excellent.  Felt like offline.

If SNK could make 3 bar matches as good as 4 bar matches, I'd have no problems with the netcode. (especially if 2 bar matches could be upgraded to 3 bar standard)
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Cibernetico on December 21, 2011, 01:52:35 PM
ok guys, I'm here to mainly report my two experiences of online that I've had so far.

First of all, the first person I played was Mr. DeadlyRaveNeo. He lives in Atlanta and I live right outside NYC. The lag was pretty bad and I could hardly do anything. He had the same problem as well so we just quit after the second match.

But here's the interesting thing. The next person I played was a friend of mines who lives in Florida. I have no idea what part of Florida he lives in but we played around 25 matches and they all felt flawless. If I were to take a guess, 8 out of ten matches were completely playabale and we noticed no lag. Now, I'm not the kind of player who does HD combos and fancy stuff, but he was able to pull off some really amazing stuff with his team of Kim, Vice and Ralf and he reported no problems doing it.

And the really interesting part about all of this? ever since I added this guy to my friends list, I find that we have pretty good matches, connection wise, in other SNK games like KOF98UM, KOF2k2UM and especially in NGBC.   

But anyway, if anyone lives in any other parts of NY, I would like to tryout the game with you guys. I'd imagine that if osmeone who lives in florida is giving me great matches, someone from the same state should produce equally better results.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on December 21, 2011, 02:24:55 PM
No offense to Deadly (friend of mine) but his internet right now is crappy. I bet you if you played me, I would have a  better match and I am farther away (St. Louis). Problem with the game is it leaves no room for crappy internet connections. On top of that the ping might be a 90m/s and you STILL might have a crappy connection between 2 players.
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Cibernetico on December 21, 2011, 03:21:43 PM
Yeah I know. His internet right now must be crap. But then again, we played a few matches of UMvC3 and we had better matches in that game. If you want, add me on Xbox Live so we can see how we do. Gt : Positively Ralf
Title: Re: Netcode Lag/Delay Test Reports
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on December 21, 2011, 11:54:19 PM
Yeah that's the only game he can get going right now. Cool on the game thing.