Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => Character Discussion => Goro Daimon => Topic started by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 05:01:25 AM
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(http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af171/dreamcancel/kofxiii/daimon.gif)
Notation
;a = Light Punch
;b = Light Kick
;c = Strong Punch
;d = Strong Kick
* = EX version possible
Throws
Okuriashi Harai - ;bk/ ;fd+ ;c/ ;d
Command Normals
Zujo Barai - ;df + ;c
Special Moves
Choukemi - ;qcb + ;b / ;d *
Jiraishin - ;dp + ;a / ;c *
Tenchigaeshi - ;hcb ;fd + ;a / ;c (close) *
Osotogari - ;dp + ;b / ;d (close) *
Kumotsukaminage - ;hcf + ;a *
Kirikabugaeshi - ;hcf + ;c
Desperation Moves
Jigoku Gokurakuotoshi - ;hcb x2 ;a / ;c (close) *
Neomax
Kyouten Douchi - ;qcf ;qcf ;a ;c (counter)
Goro's Wiki entry (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Goro_Daimon_(XIII)).
Console changes:
- Crouching C’s recovery time has been reduced.
- Kirikabugaeshi’s (qcf+C) recovery time on a whiff has been reduced. Doesn’t cause a knockback when blocked.
* EX Chou Ukemi (qcb+BD) can be canceled with a special or a super. Meaning that Goro can go straight into a throw from his invincible roll.
* Kirikabugaeshi (hcf+C) and Kumotsukaminage (hcf+A) can be drive canceled.
* A super cancel version of Jigoku-Gokurakuotoshi (hcb*2+ P) has been added to the game.
* EX Chou Oosotogari’s (dp+BD) recovery time on a whiff has been reduced.
Producer Yamamoto says: As a judo fighter, we’ve strengthened his grab attacks. You need to super cancel, but he can combo his Jigoku-Gokurakuotoshi from all sorts of grab attacks. He can even do HD combos with just grab attacks, so please try them out.
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Reserved
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Reserved
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First post in Goro's new console thread should be about his awesome HD potential. So, I'm messing around with him, trying to figure out something practical. Here's what I've found:
st.B, HD, st.B, dp+B (HDC) hcbx2+P (MAX) qcfx2+AC = 807 damage
st.B, HD, st.B, dp+B (HDC) hcf+C (HDC) hcbx2+P (MAX) qcfx2+AC = 800 damage
st.B, HD, st.B, dp+B (HDC) hcf+C (HDC) qcb+B, hcf+C (HDC) hcbx2+P (MAX)qcfx2+AC = 785 damage
Personally, I don't want to go into HD with Goro unless I have three bars, because that NeoMax is really, really worth it. But the NeoMax suffers so much from scaling that you don't really have room to add stuff. Less is more.
Has anyone found his non-NeoMax HD combos to be worth it?
(By the way, I like st.B as an HD combo starter since it has less knockback than cl.C. It also gives some leeway for messy inputs. For example, f+B (HD) d+B, df+B still combos smoothly. I'm probably sacrificing some damage though.)
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st.B is okay as an hd combo starter but i'd toss st.B df.C HD as the start up simply cause the hit stun is longer, also if done this way you can st.D instead of st.B into dp.K for more damage.
Or we could all use Reynald's start up of st.D hd st.D (then you findings on shortening the combo) dp.K (HDC) hcbx2+P (MAX) qcfx2+AC to get a total of 904 damage for what i believe is the best bang for your buck damage to execution combo.
So long as he isn't slept on Goro's probably gonna be a favorite in the anchor position IMHO.
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I've been practicing Tick HD Neomax setups... Here are a few of my findings...
- Do s.A or s.B and cancel it with dp+ABC... If they were blocking low and couldn't react in time and guard the EX dp+AC, you can drive cancel it with dp+B/BD > HD Neomax Combo... This has to be done quite up close for it to work...
- Same way do (s.A) or (s.A, s.B) or (s.A, s.A, s.B) and cancel into dp+BC; during your recovery, go straight into DM > HD Neomax Combo... For s.A, s.A, s.B only EX DM will have the range...
- Anti-air with d/f+C and cancel with qcb+BC... Then go straight into hcf+A > HD Neomax Combo...
- Empty hop, press B+C right before landing... Immediately input dp+B/BD upon landing and continue on with HD Neomax Combo...
- Similarly, empty hop and press hcb+BC right before landing... Immediately input f+AC *will give you hcb~f+AC* upon landing and continue on d/f+C, hcf+A/AC > HD Neomax Combo...
- Similarly jump/hop and press B+C as you are landing... Depending on your timing of the button press you will have 3 different options... The 1st option is the one posted above of whiffing the j.C that will come out due to pressing B+C in the air... The 2nd option is pressing it early during your jump... This will have the opponent deal with a j.C and Goro can land and do dp+B/BD > HD Neomax combo... The 3rd option is to time the B+C so that j.C will hit with enough stun for you to connect a s.B/C, dp+B/BD > HD Neomax Combo...
- Do any one of his normals and cancel with qcb+BC... If you cancelled form *light* normals then you can *tick* straight into dp+B/BD > HD Neomax Combo... If you cancelled from from *heavy* normals then you can *combo* into (dp+B/BD upon *hit* by cancelling qcb+B) or (dp+B/BD upon *block* by *not* cancelling qcb+B) > HD Neomax Combo...
- You can also cancel light/heavy normals with qcb+BC; then cancel qcb+BC with dp+C/AC for a double fake out + tick > HD Neomax Combo setup...
- Do any set of light normals and cancel with dp+BCD or hcb~f+ABC... This will give you the opportunity to go straight into a HD Neomax Combo if you connect with your light normal... You can also do this from heavy normals; however, for heavy normals you can add a qcb+BC before BD or hcb~f+AC and hit confirm off of that...
- You can sweep with cr.D and cancel into qcb+BC > HD Neomax Combo if they don't safe roll...
- For the following, there are a lot of ways to get into it... (s.A), (s.A, s.B), (s.A, s.A, s.B), (s.B), (s.B, d/f+C), (cr.B), (d/f+C), (s.C), (cr.C), (s.D) all work... Tick with the normal and cancel into HD mode... Then do dp+B/BD > HD Neomax Combo...
EDIT: If i recall, j.D, s.D, HD, s.D, dp+BD, DM, Neomax is NEARLY 100%...
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goro is fucking beast. besides his new combos and hd set ups, hes actually for the first time ver in kof FUN to use.
and his normal non hd combos are lethal. supercancelling for easy 50% of a command grab is straight out sick.
;dn ;db ;bk ;b and ;b ;d are your friends. fucker grabs you from so far away almost instantaneously, ;fd ;df ;dn ;db ;bk ;b ;fd ;a ;c when they're near the corner and you grab them from almost 1/4 screen away. even further with ex dm. even worse for your enemy you can easily confirm it with ;fd ;dn ;df ;b or ;d and super cancel that, obviously less range but deadly and safe/conserving bar.
the later you command grab after a roll, the more range it gets obviously. but from further away and cancelled quickly it basically becomes a superfast command throw that even puts AE zangief LP spd and hakans oiled command grab to shame. now if only he had ways to cancel his NM in hd mode from a command throw instead of superthrow maxcancelling he'd be pimped up for life.
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Some things I need help with:
Tips vs. runaway and zoning as Daimon? just in general, more specific things listed below.
I'm having trouble with characters like King and Kula...can never seem to catch them or reach some of their ranged pokes...like King st.D, or Kula st.B...also that ice tatsu! =S I can't seem to do anything about it, even hcf+A get's stuffed
How should I be punishing uppercuts that send their character flying over me?
What is my best option for punishing moves like Kula's ice hair (pre-emptive aa but i don't jump)...i find that space avoiding most of my pokes, c.C isn't fast enough and c.D is stubby...st.B seems to get stuffed or not quite reach
also what to do vs ice tatsu? that moves nuts. (kula)
I press forward slowly using st.B/D while looking for jump and hop attempts...but can't seem to find opportunities outside of raw punishes to land any damage. What's the best answer to players jumping out when I'm close? I'm using st.D right now, as missing the hcf+a seems risky.
In the air i seem to only have success with j.CD. Which I'm ok with, but when should I be using his other air options, and what's the most damaging followup to a counterhit j.CD?
When they GCroll out or just regular roll, I have difficulty getting a good punish with inputs switching, tips on execution or a better option?
Any help is appreciated, thanks...this guy is a monster, feels right to play, coming from E.Honda...just gotta get used to this pace/unthrowable jump frames
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Prepare for dumb questions from someone who never really used the character before:
Any particular use for his Low and high grabs? The Kumo-Tsukami and Kirikabu gaeshi? I know you can link the low grab off of jump CD if they're jumping and you have them in the corner. But do they have any other uses?
Why use Tenchi-Gaeshi (Forward, hcb, foward Punch) grab over the Chow Oosoto (SRK Grab)? They seem to have the same exact range. And it looks like the SRK grab is an easy cancel into grab super and Neo Max for 800 damage.
Is his Air grab a good AA or should I just stick with downfoard C and standing D?
Ditto a lot of the questions Druggish had.
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The hcb, f, P grab has slightly longer range than the srk grab. You will notice if you try either off of s.A s.A s.B. both can be cancelled into super but i think the hcb, f, P one might need to throw the opponent into a corner. It also deals 40 points of damage more.
The anti air throw deals a good chunk of damage and can be comboed into from df.C as an anti air or off of counter-hit j.C+D so for those purposes it is good, i mostly just s.D though because it covers so much of the sky.
The low grab i assume is the one that can pick opponents up from the ground. I see little use for it outside of HD combos. It doesn't have its guard point from xii, it is blockable, unsafe and deals low damage. It can be supercancelled though so if you have an opportunity i guess it could actually win you a game at some point.
I don't have any tips to beat King, having only faced her online her offense seems pretty much unpunishable and because of her projectile spammy nature i feel that the footsie game becomes very tough against her.
If someone does a shoryuken esque move that sends them off far away you can just run towards them s.B (long range) and cancel into hcb, f, P for 200 something damage. If you get closer or feel confident s.B can be canceled into dp+K into super or HD canceled and followed up by s.B dp+K super neomax for pain. The basic punish is relatively safe though and nets you good enough damage.
Far standing C is a good poke, the reach is superior to c.C even though they look similar so it is good for footsies. Close standing C is pretty bad imo though because it seems to have a low hitbox and thus whiff against jump-ins (slightly off topic it might seem, but i'm just trying to say, beware of being random with it)
I feel that Goro may suffer alot in some matchups. King being one of them, because she never really gets near you and she shuts down alot of your options. He is probably my favorite (i'm quite sure he is) grappler though so as it stands for me he is on an interchangeable slot with a couple of alternatives as i'm working out what works for me.
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Why use Tenchi-Gaeshi (Forward, hcb, foward Punch) grab over the Chow Oosoto (SRK Grab)? They seem to have the same exact range. And it looks like the SRK grab is an easy cancel into grab super and Neo Max for 800 damage.
the hcb,f+P grab is 1F whereas the dp+K has a moment of startup where you are invincible (but they can jump)
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Hey what position do you guys like to put Daimon in? I was thinking of letting him go first but I've been practicing the neo max combos. The thing is, I never seem to use any drive meter with him so far, and the only drive cancels I use in a match is the roll into the ground grab from the trial. Is there any practical drive combos with him? I tend to just save drive meter for Leona because her Ex V-Slash into Leona Blade is just awesome and I have her as my anchor. Joe is my middle man atm and I sometimes just drive cancel some moves for extra hits but I can do without them canceling right now because I know there are better ways to use the meter.
edit: Nvm, I found out trial 8 actual works mid screen haha. So I do have a use for drive meter with him.
Also, is the HK version of the roll unable to cancel into a throw? I've been practicing hcb + b, f + a to get throws off a roll and I never seem to nail it when using D instead of b. Ex version works fine though.
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Ditto a lot of the questions Druggish had.
*Duggish ;)
About his command roll-
B version: short distance, no invincibility, but cancels into specials
D version: long distance, startup invincibility, cannot cancel
EX version: long distance, startup invincible, cancels into specials =D
these also can never cross the opponent up...makes it useful to EX as reversal and input the command accurately
If someone does a shoryuken esque move that sends them off far away you can just run towards them s.B (long range) and cancel into hcb, f, P for 200 something damage. If you get closer or feel confident s.B can be canceled into dp+K into super or HD canceled and followed up by s.B dp+K super neomax for pain. The basic punish is relatively safe though and nets you good enough damage.
Thanks, this has been working out great, using the EX throw for extra damage is really satisfying =D
Had some time to play with Daimon since my last post:
...j.CD is amazing, and has been helping me get in on the zoning and runaway games...using it when they jump to keep the pressure on as well as occasionally netting huge damage has been good for sitting characters down
- on counterhit the wallbounce is great...i try for hcf+A (qcb+B, hcf+C...) but don't mind settling for a j.CD to carry them to the corner, where we want them
- Landing it near a corner allows you to hcf+C into super. when i know its going to hit (jumping a fireball or seeing a slow poke) i like to activate HD with j.BCD and go into a neo max combo
...I've been using the running st.B xx hcbf+C/EX command throw to punish the regular rolls. also learned that apparently the GC rolls are completely safe...so i guess just be glad they spent a bar, or maybe set up pressure if you can? *shrug*
...Against the ranged pokes i was having trouble with, like King's and kula's, i've been having success using the qcb+B xx dp+B/hcbf command throw, once they get hit by that my options open up more as they're more cautious. also, more j.CD helped again =D
...Noticing that a lot of the stuff I'm doing takes many drives and super stocks, I think that Daimon should definitely be second or third in a lineup. I play him in both slots, but always behind a good battery, and tend to have enough meter going into the match to just end it with a few mixups, which is daimon's strength.
still having trouble with ice tatsu >.>
still can't get the multiple df.C juggle in the corner as consistently as I'd like...any tips?
back to the grind...
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I usually just lurk but these forums are kinda dead.
I'm completely new to the entire KOF series. So, forgive my trespasses.
I'm interested in Goro but I am not sure if he's right for me. Is Goro just a monster mixup grappler? I'd like to play a grappler that's a little less one-dimensional than "rushdown-until-corner-then-go-crazy."
The few videos I can find of decent Goro's don't really show any usage of the ground pound. Is that thing even good / usable? Also, is there a Youtube Channel that has a decent Goro so I can see a good sampling of how he plays against the cast?
I really like to control space with my characters without projectiles through poking and spacing and Goro is said to have great normals. The previous posts suggest he can get zoned out easily, though. Since he's a grappler, I guess people just runaway the whole time?
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His ground pound hits low, so its best against those throwing projectiles at you from far, or from people just not paying attention.
You can zone pretty well at mid-range with his normals, and his jumping normals as well. You have basically almost 4 anti-airs (far A, C, D, df+C), and his j.D is good for instant overheads, and his j.CD (as mentioned before) is pretty great, especially if you counter hit them with it. They will bounce off the wall and you follow up with a dp+A if you catch him or another J.CD, or df+C, etc.
Yes, I feel Goro can be out zoned pretty well because of his height and his limited mobility. He can also be prone to being crossed up easily too, so you gotta find ways to keep them out of that space. I feel that if you are being zoned by fireballs, you can try his qcb+D or his qcb+BD which both have a bit of invincibility for you can get in their face.
I kinda feel that Goro is an up-in-your-face grappler but he's better played with your opponent against the corner while you bait out normals and specials, and try to keep them locked in the corner.
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Thanks for the quick reply!
I am definitely looking for a grappler with a great / best neutral game so Goro seems like the best fit. I understand that any grappler wants you into the corner but I don't really enjoy jumping in / rushing-down constantly and just itching to open someone up. I enjoy frame traps and control through pokes to drive people into bad positioning and then working them over.
I see so many combo videos but there just isn't a lot of content on the finer points of each character like how to apply a their specific normals in a neutral game. I'm sure that as the community grows, there will be more content available. I love reading people's thoughts about the metagame though.
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doesnt goro have an OS against short hops?
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He has a good s.A against short hops.
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Thanks, this has been working out great, using the EX throw for extra damage is really satisfying =D
Just so you know, the EX version of the throw nets you a whole 5 extra damage. The only reason I think you should do it is cuz it allows for follow up combos in the corner. I haven't played too much and I'm just picking Daimon up but 5 extra damage is simply not worth the bar. What may be is maybe it gives some invuln frames? idk.
Here's 1 thing which I haven't seen mentioned on here (NVM sorry didn't read carefully) but you may already know, his ;df ;c when used as an anti-air can be cancelled into HCF A anywhere on screen making your anti-air hit do over 200 damage (I think) and can be super cancelled. Pretty effective I think since that move is such a good anti-air.
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I figured the use of the EX throw's followups was implied when talking about the damage ;)
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What would be daimon's strengths over clark? Them being the two major grapplers in the game (I consider vice a hybrid grappler) I think it would be good to compare them
Sent from my R800x using Tapatalk
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What would be daimon's strengths over clark? Them being the two major grapplers in the game (I consider vice a hybrid grappler) I think it would be good to compare them
Sent from my R800x using Tapatalk
Just my opinion: In Kof XIII the only pure grappler is Goro. I would consider Clark a "hybrid grappler". Comparing Goro and Clark, I think Goro has better normals and can control space better at close range, while Clark may be a bit faster and control better space at mid-range, but those are just my opinions.
Changing matters: Has anyone noticed that Goro´s weak hits cause 8 stun unlike any other weak attacks of any other character, that cause 3 stun? I have not tested every weak attack for every char. but I think the usual stun damage for weak attacks is 3 for all but Goro.
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What would be daimon's strengths over clark? Them being the two major grapplers in the game (I consider vice a hybrid grappler) I think it would be good to compare them
Better damage output and use of drive, the main advantage there being that he can supercancel regular command throws (unlike Clark, who can only SC his ex SAB). He can also drive cancel his throws.
I would say he is also more efficient when it comes to combos overall, being able to convert anti-airs and counter hits into major damage (even HD combos).
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Goro frame data up:
http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Goro_Daimon_(XIII)#Move_Metadata (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Goro_Daimon_(XIII)#Move_Metadata)
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Goro Daimon Guard Gauge Damage
far st. A: 8%
st. A: 8%
st. B: 6%
far. C: 12%
cl. C: 12%
far. D: 12%
cl. D: 12%
cr. A: 6%
cr. B: 6%
cr. C: 12%
cr. D: 12%
st. CD: 16%
j. A: 5%
(head) j. A: 6%
j. B: 5%
(head) j. B: 6%
j. C: 10%
(head) j. C: 12%
j. D: 12%
j. CD: 10%
(head) j. CD: 12%
dp+AC: 8% (1st hit) + 4% (2nd hit) [12% Total]
This does not apply against Maxima, Goro, Clark, or Ralf.
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hey guys i normally play clark but i want to play with daimon also where do you guys use goro in your teams. I think I want to put him on a team with saiki and billy.
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I would recommend you putting them like billy/saiki/goro, or mabey billy/goro/saiki. 1st is defenitly Billys strongest position, and the other two are debatable imo. I would put Goro last personally. He is great at converting random hits into damage as long as he has meter, while Saiki is more of a zoning monster.
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A friend and I were playing with Goro pretty hard in training mode trying to get a feel for the character... While I have many things on my mind and lots of question to ask, one thing in particular stood out and it has to do with a particular combo:
Ex SPD, or his hcb+f command grab ... Run up, ;df Hp xx Lk command Roll xx into a reverse air throw
The roll runs underneath the air born opponent and the air throw grabs from behind!
We stumbled across this combo when we were trying to perform the regular version where it's the same but having an air throw that hits from the front, my friend came up with the idea and we decided to try to see if it was possible and it turned out that it is!
This combo works and I feel it's something worth perfecting for it's mid screen application, it's application being that it can put the opponent in the corner from mid screen from 1 EX command grab and nothing more...
The problem with this combo is it's incredible difficulty due to several factors of which i'm not certain need to be...
Here they are as I think they need to be
The run up into ;df Hp needs to be timed so that it hits fairly low to the ground
the command roll that comes afterwards needs to quickly be cancelled into a air throw with it's inputs reversed *HCB* instead of HCF
Do you guys know of this combo and do any of you know have an understanding of how to hit it more consistently?
Does the ;df fierce need to indeed need to connect fairly low to the ground?
Does the air throw after the roll need in fact be cancelled ASAP?Does it need to be delayed perhaps?
What determines this?
I invite anybody to try out this combo for themselves and join me trying to figure out how this works exactly...
:)
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Why not skip the qcb+B? The anti-air throw combos after the df+C. Same damage, less complicated (which is always welcome in a real match situation).
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less complicated but it side switches
Doing the complicated thing of rolling and crossing under into a behind air throw does not
I think it's worth perfecting both combos sense they both have an situational nitch...
The normal combo that you suggested, since it doesn't side switch, would be the ideal combo to land if Goros has his back to the wall.. the side switching would put the opponent in the corner...
The cross up roll on the other hand, would be ideal from mid screen because it doesn't side switch and would put the opponent in the corner, or at least get them close
That's why I think this combo is worth investigating
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is there to do goro's ;df ;c to ;bk ;db ;dn ;df ;fd ;a any easier. im havin a bit of trouble executing that
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what I usualy do is hcb+B into hcf+A after the df+C
has faster sttartup than hfc+C and you get the same result.
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DAIMON IS A FUCKING MONSTER!
KoF XIII: Goro Daimon combo video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsNdLbvdxbA#ws)
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Wow, didn't know you could do that.
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Who are well known Daimon players? I was trying to find fighting footage on youtube but it didn't seem to come up wiht to many.
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Who are well known Daimon players? I was trying to find fighting footage on youtube but it didn't seem to come up wiht to many.
If you don't mind what people say about our region, there's a pretty good Daimon in NorCal. His name's BBZ. He recently played in Lost in Space 3 which was streamed on Iplaywinner.
He plays him.
If you want internationally famous people, you might want Kaoru. He's a Japanese player from I believe Kansai. In any case, he's a very good player and his most recently streamed tournament was Mix-Up 9. You should check him out.
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Okay thank you, for the quick response.
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Who are well known Daimon players? I was trying to find fighting footage on youtube but it didn't seem to come up wiht to many.
Look up Kaoru match vids. Japanese player that uses Ryo/Daimon/Raiden/Maxima
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^sometimes Karate as well, but yeah dat Goro is beast.
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Something people should have seen by now but I haven't seen it in this thread.
KOF XIII - Goro Daimon Combos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smi-UUJVMu8#ws)
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I'm pretty new to Daimon so there's a lot of mistakes but here's some footage from last night:
http://www.twitch.tv/gameclucks/b/463590195?t=86m29s (http://www.twitch.tv/gameclucks/b/463590195?t=86m29s)
Here's GF when I run him on point. My chin does most the work but hey it's somethin'. Trying to get these forums moving!
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Meant to put this here awhile ago but nice Daimon from Flanders; He starts playing about 31 minutes in
ConceGamer 2013 KOF13 Tournament from Chile (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbopbMR0YFk#)
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Skip to 17:06 if the vid doesn't go the time skip for you. That OS was so well placed I rewatched it 5x easily right now. SHINGO plays an impressive Daimon; He's especially good with his confirms
http://youtu.be/q5EUvits2zM?t=17m6s (http://youtu.be/q5EUvits2zM?t=17m6s)
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Zero Black uploaded this ages ago but it's pretty strange that it works even while blocking. Anyone know if this was patched out in Climax Version?
KOF XIII - Goro Bug (Hits Reset) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEfZiyU8h9M#ws)