Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => Character Discussion => Joe Higashi => Topic started by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 05:15:19 AM
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(http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af171/dreamcancel/kofxiii/joe.gif)
Notation
;a = Light Punch
;b = Light Kick
;c = Strong Punch
;d = Strong Kick
* = EX version possible
Throw
Sou Hiza Jigoku - ;bk / ;fd + ;c / ;d
Command Normals
Step In Middle Kick - ;fd + ;b
Slide - ;df + ;b
Special Moves
Hurricane Upper - ;hcf + ;a / ;c *
Tiger Kick - ;dp + ;b / ;d *
Thrust Kick - ;hcf + ;b / ;d *
Babusken - ;a / ;c (rapidly) *
∟ Follow up - ;qcb + ;a / ;c
Golden Heel - ;qcb + ;b / ;d *
Desperation Moves
Screw Upper - ;qcf x 2 + ;a / ;c *
Hurricane Tiger Heel - ;qcf, ;hcb + ;a / ;c
Neomax
Screw Straight - ;qcf x 2 + ;b ;d
Joe's Wiki entry (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Joe_Higashi_(XIII)).
Console changes:
* Ex Screw Upper (qcf x2+P) will stay in position when it hits. With this change, Joe can’t be punished afterwards when he hits the opponent with it in the corner.
* Sliding can be canceled with his Bakuretsuken (rapid P). But not with any other specials.
* Hit detection will remain on the opponent after his sliding hits. Again, it can’t be canceled with anything but his Bakuretsuken, but he can go into HD mode from the slide.
* Slash Kick (hcf K) can be drive canceled.
- EX Tiger Kick (Ex dp+K) comes out faster. Has strong invincibility in the front.
- Screw Straight (qcf x2+K) comes out faster. It has no invincibility and it has the same shot limit as projectiles. (Probably means that you can’t do it while there’s another projectile on the screen.)
Producer Yamamoto says: He can actually juggle other attacks aside from his Bakuretsuken after his slide so please try them from going into HD mode from his slide and whatnot. Also, his EX Screw Upper has been changed so you can use it in the corner without worrying. He does things a bit differently on a Max Cancel too.
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Reserved
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Reserved
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Invincibility seems to work the same on both Joes heavy and EX tiger kick. He seems to be invulnerable through most of his body and can move through projectiles etc with both but can be stuffed by high jumpin attacks. Invincibility seems to work best during the crouch before he leaps and then "gradually" go away.
While in HD mode his slide can be canceled into any special move.
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Invincibility seems to work the same on both Joes heavy and EX tiger kick. He seems to be invulnerable through most of his body and can move through projectiles etc with both but can be stuffed by high jumpin attacks. Invincibility seems to work best during the crouch before he leaps and then "gradually" go away.
While in HD mode his slide can be canceled into any special move.
I will have to give those a try. Thanks for the info
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@nilcam, could I assist in building out the Joe wiki?
I'd like to begin by adding content for his specials/supers.
Thx
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Would it be fair to say that Joe is mostly a zoning character and Hwai is a rush down character?
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I would say that Joe is capable of a bit of zoning, but lacks some of the tools to excel at it such as a fast invincible dp (S tiger kick is slow and EX, while damaging costs meter) and good AA normals to sustain zoning play.
From mid range though it's good to pressure with W hurricanes followed by slash kicks or heels to pick up rolls and jumps. A nice console change that I do notice is that normal screw upper seems to come out significantly faster so, it's much more viable for AA on a read than before (reminiscent of Joe in previous games).
He's a pretty intense rush-pressure guy. One thing that is often overlooked is his s.A which hits CROUCHING opponents and can be linked into f.B for combo'ing. An excellent weapon, also provides the best ranged normal attacks outside of a straight f.B which is highly punishable on whiff.
This guy's easily a rushdown chr.
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I agree with biobooster. Joes only good normal anti airs are actually the same tools just about everyone has, stand jabs and standing hard punch. Stand C works ok especially for its active frames but it is a bit slower than either version of s.D and seems to have a lower hitbox thus making it pretty unsafe against anything but very delayed jumpin attacks.
His EX hurricane upper is fantastic as each projectile can eat an EX projectile by itself (atleast against most of the cast) making him trumpf other characters but since it is an EX it is really more for scaring the opponent than anything else.
Screw Upper is faster than xii atleast and i assume xiii arcade aswell. It is also relatively safe, and by that i mean that it is safe compared to the EX version and that you should be pretty safe unless the opponent has a quick decent range combo starter. I have never been punished for it in a match though i don't throw it out often either so that explains that. I have actually thrown it out for chip and won by following it with a C tiger kick hehe, but that doesn't mean that it isn't punishable, just that i play like an ass. Worth testing exactly how safe/unsafe it is.
Joes sweep has a surprisingly short range and is in and of itself unsafe but can be canceled into either slide and depending on spacing become safe or medium kick into special. His s.C interestingly enough can be used for an effect very similar to kara-cancelling because he takes a pretty long step forward pretty much instantly so you can just whiff cancel that into a medium kick and take another big step forward for some pretty good reach. Negative is ofcourse that you really don't want to whiff the medium kick.
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Hey very nice notes mr. fluke. I in turn agree everything you have.
I forgot to mention the EX hurricane properties you have - adding on detail, in addition to each EX hurricane negating ex fbs which you mention, each hurricane will go completely through normal fbs negating them as well. Pretty good EX move.
I hate his s.D which has no range. I catch myself using this from too far away and whiffing - habit from older KOFs.
If you're close enough to hit with s.D, should be using s.A>f.B which is longer and faster...
Something random. Getting close as possible(roll into corner when opponent is getting up there) and having opponent block TnT punch to the fullest then use finisher for safety, it's possible to chip the opponent for something like 100dmg D-:
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I hate his s.D which has no range. I catch myself using this from too far away and whiffing - habit from older KOFs.
If you're close enough to hit with s.D, should be using s.A>f.B which is longer and faster...
I like s.D but mainly because it is a good meaty on wakeups, especially in the corner where you can go from light hurricane upper to EX TnT. Otherwise i generally use light strings for hitconfirms and hard punch for anti air.
Something random. Getting close as possible(roll into corner when opponent is getting up there) and having opponent block TnT punch to the fullest then use finisher for safety, it's possible to chip the opponent for something like 100dmg D-:
That is pretty nasty though i assume that it won't do that much damage if you go for it off of c.B s.A df.b TnT? Would be pretty nasty seeing how that string could easily lead into a pretty decent corner combo aswell if it actually hits.
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Wish my playstyle was such that I could make better use of s.D - damn you whiffs!! I see why you would use it for meaties > so it's got long attack frames... interesting.
On block, I doubt c.B s.A df.b TnT would have you in range to do much chip, but could be great for confirming into HD off of a hit in the corner.
So, df.B should still be considered low on cancel, then you can theoretically hcf.BC to bypass into slash kick, which is cancellable towards the end (be sure not to land or you'll be too late) into tiger kick > heel > tiger kick >...
Dude, I will try this when I get home.
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I have been messing with the hcf+BC bypass from fwd+B. It seems like you have to delay it a little or you will get the HD dash animation. Why does slash kick come out instead of a hurricane punch? I am wondering because in SF, a harder a stronger attack button always had priority over a lower attack button.
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Hi Jay, I have a feeling that slash kick is arranged for when using this method - just my guess. I thought I had gotten hurricane on one occaision, but could be my mind playing tricks on me.
BTW, when you do f.B > slash kick BC, try holding down BC - should work like a charm.
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So the best natural on reaction AA for jump-ins is St. C(hops is def St. A)? I thought it to be St.D for some reason. I've even resorted to hop-back j. A sometimes.
Also, has anyone had success using either version of Tiger Knee as a reversal? EX is the best because it combines the best of both, but that's one whole stock. Besides EX, why would I use either version in open ground? B is faster but not invulnerable, C is mad slow, but invulnerable. So when using the two I either get bad trades or simply ate up. Largely because they made it so......horizontal instead of angling. In that way, it's almost like just having another Slash Kick. And it's not a good AA at all unless they're really low and you did quicker B version and just praying that you don't get beat out.
Right now I'm just sticking to using this move in combos because I've had bad luck trying to apply it elsewhere. Even when just straightforward zoning with hurricanes, I've caught more jumps with Slash Kick than Tiger Knee.
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@BioBooster, i've tested a bit with slide hd bypass and cancelling to TnT but it doesn't feel comfortable to me atm. I will have to give it more time though because i'm sure that it is gonna prove usefull.
@FlyMike j.C is probably your best bet if you jump straigth into an opponent in the air as it feels like it covers more vertical space than his jump kicks and it comes out faster than j.D. If you are expecting a jump in a neutral jump D or CD is great (back jump could obviously work aswell, depends on spacing etc)
I use heavy tiger kick all the time. I'm a brave user though so i do throw it out at both times when it is an obviously good choice and whenever i feel like it really. It may be stupid at times but then again, if you don't reversal, who will respect you on wakeup etc? Just gotta try to be smart about it.
The EX version jumps over crouchers close to you, so it's a good tool for getting out of corners though on block it has about as bad recovery as the heavy version so it's sadly a free punish if the opponent stand blocks.
The light version is used in combos mainly so it doesn't nesecarily need another use, but it actually isn't useless for the zoning game. It is good for ranged punishes if you don't think slash kick will be fast enough and if someone jumps and you are spaced correctly you can just tag them on reaction. Problem obviously being that it loses to most normals with good range and will probably trade with others, so you've got to use it when you think your opponent is actually just going to move around/throw out something slow/late or for "psychic" anti airs etc ofc. If you don't feel like using it, it doesn't seem like you're really missing out on much though. I guess its main purpose outside of combos is to scare people hehe. I would recommend using golden heel for preemtive anti airs though as it is more rewarding on hit and safer on block so yeah.. That and slash kick does kind of kill most uses of light tiger kick.
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@ The Fluke
Thanks for the reply. I ran a good set with my friend today who won an Alabama tourney over the weekend. I was like fuck it and got really random. Not wreckless, as he's too unsafe for that. Just a "brave user" as you say, and was tagging with alot of psychic shit. Light slash kick knocking King and Flame Iori out of the startup of their supers, actually getting some decent AA out of Light Tiger knee for deep jump-ins, and I mostly tried using St. C today from what I read in the thread, it's ok. Heavy Tiger kick was putting in some reversal work today too.
Yea I always jump-in with j.C and if they happen to meet me in the air then it's still all good. Zoning wise, I did have some luck with throwing out a few light Tiger knees, but I'm just so used to them getting stuffed.
I always use Golden Heel for preemptive AAs and auto-pilot light Slash kick as follow-up depending on how it hits. Also for blowbacks, as if its a CH blowback you get the follow-up, but if it's regular hit you're still safe and on top of them.
In short, it just feels like you need a good grasp of fundamentals and spacing to not get blew up with Joe. I'm going for a style completely opposite of the flash that you see in match vids because 1.) my hands don't do all of that shit lol and 2.) you gotta be able to get in safely in order to set all that up. That's why I'm going to start poking more and fishing with st.A. I run Joe on anchor, without the fancy stuff, and it's mainly because I've got an eye for tagging people with NeoMax or setting shit up for that lvl 2 that hurts, which is a big risk outside of combos because you'll get killed for it. Trying to use more Light hurricanes to remain safe in my strings, and rushdown that includes using golden heel as an ender sometimes and going into low strings immediately after hoping for the best. But for the most part I just play my game from midscreen, which is kinda lame for an anchor sitting on all that bar. But Yuri and Maxima get dirty and spaz out enough. If Joe has to come out, imma lame it and fish for scraps lol.
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@The Fluke, although it works, I don't like his bypass off of slide either. If you want to hit low, you can start a c.B s.A f.B bypass combo is the way I look at it. BTW, tested out his other moves on bypass:
Heel - Since the weak one comes out on BC, doesn't combo with anything. Can do BCD to get EX bypass...doesn't combo either.
Tiger Kick (EX too) - Doesn't combo unless from close weaks, but if you're that close should be using f.B
So conclusion is that bypassing other moves is quite useless with him. Fine with me as he already has a really good bypass.
@FlyMike
Yep, I think Joe can be a pretty good anchor. He's got a lot of outlets for meter. Re:AA I use strong tiger kick when I have enough time, otherwise I may do j.CD which has nice horizontal reach and is fast. Going forward, I want to test how good his slide is as AA versus jump attacks that are strong to the side.
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Has anybody been able to get this combo to work in the corner:
st.C, forward B, ex TnT, tiger kick, TnT, DP?
I have struggling with this and some advice would be fantastic.
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Has anybody been able to get this combo to work in the corner:
st.C, forward B, ex TnT, tiger kick, TnT, DP?
I have struggling with this and some advice would be fantastic.
Ehm.. DP?
I can do s.C, f.B, ex TnT, golden heel, tiger kick, TnT, j.D
I honestly don't know what "DP" is in this case.
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Has anybody been able to get this combo to work in the corner:
st.C, forward B, ex TnT, tiger kick, TnT, DP?
I have struggling with this and some advice would be fantastic.
Ehm.. DP?
I can do s.C, f.B, ex TnT, golden heel, tiger kick, TnT, j.D
I honestly don't know what "DP" is in this case.
sorry, i will reword it:
st.C, forward B, EX TnT, qcb+k, TnT, tiger kick.
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Has anybody been able to get this combo to work in the corner:
st.C, forward B, ex TnT, tiger kick, TnT, DP?
I have struggling with this and some advice would be fantastic.
Ehm.. DP?
I can do s.C, f.B, ex TnT, golden heel, tiger kick, TnT, j.D
I honestly don't know what "DP" is in this case.
sorry, i will reword it:
st.C, forward B, EX TnT, qcb+k, TnT, tiger kick.
Hey there, the key is to do TnT after tiger kick.
So using your example, you can do:
s.C, f.B, EX TnT, TnT finish, (no drive cancel) strong heel, weak tiger kick, TnT, TnT Finish, j.D
Should try this, think it will be much easier than you expect ;)
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Just because it is pretty hilarious; Joes backwards walking speed is slightly faster than Claw Ioris forward walking speed. You can test it in training mode by setting the select button to make the dummy walk forward. Joe=GDLK RUNAWAY!
Ofcourse it will probably have little to no impact because you won't get away by walking backwards, but still.
*Just tested, it is possible to link s.C after EX Golden Heel
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Has anybody been able to get this combo to work in the corner:
st.C, forward B, ex TnT, tiger kick, TnT, DP?
I have struggling with this and some advice would be fantastic.
Ehm.. DP?
I can do s.C, f.B, ex TnT, golden heel, tiger kick, TnT, j.D
I honestly don't know what "DP" is in this case.
sorry, i will reword it:
st.C, forward B, EX TnT, qcb+k, TnT, tiger kick.
Hey there, the key is to do TnT after tiger kick.
So using your example, you can do:
s.C, f.B, EX TnT, TnT finish, (no drive cancel) strong heel, weak tiger kick, TnT, TnT Finish, j.D
Should try this, think it will be much easier than you expect ;)
Thanks for clarifying! I was doing tha at first, but i saw haregoro add that tnt in the middle, so i figured it was just me. Now that its been cleared up... Back to Joe! Haha
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kupô
i have hard time to deal with these character Mai/Leona/Iori
can you give me some advices to kill theme
Mai - good zoning with normal,the threat of NeoMAX,very nice air play :-(
Leona - same as Mai with V-Slasher, mix with hop+CD>d.B again and again......
Iori - Crossp b.B, jump B/D, and the normal Iori stuffs
thanks kupô ^0^
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I found that joe can link cs.C after EX Golden Heel for juicier damage. It's a pretty nice investment in case of counter/random hit.
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Wait a min.....his hard Tiger knee can go though stuff?? And here i am wishing they kept it the same! (Like in KOF 02UM)
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I found that joe can link cs.C after EX Golden Heel for juicier damage. It's a pretty nice investment in case of counter/random hit.
Wow, did not know that C would hit after that. I would always use s.A > f.B after EX hit on the ground - that's pretty decent. A shame that for the life of me, could not find any way to combo with EX outside of juggling. Still useful though in the situations you point out above.....wait a sec, I think you can DC it off of hurricane.
Just shut down before that thought, but will give that a try - if it works will have to look at how cost effective that is.
Wait a min.....his hard Tiger knee can go though stuff?? And here i am wishing they kept it the same! (Like in KOF 02UM)
Hard tiger is pretty decent, but maybe not the best for going through stuff consistently. EX Tiger tho....GDLK and crazy damage for an EX move XD
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ok adjusting from 98 Joe to XIII joe. I have a couple of questions:
Can golden heel still be used for anti air? If so, what do you get after youve knocked someone out of the air? In 98 you got a b tiger kick? Also, is B Golden heel safe on block? (ex or regular)
For some odd reason i can do s.C, f+b, hcf+A....what gives?
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Golden heel can still be used as an AA if done early. Both strengths allow juggles afterwards, but B is hell unsafe on block. Use D heel for that, afterwards you can use EX slash kick to carry them towards the corner for some juggling.
Near the corner you can D heel > tiger kick <DC> screw upper or > tiger kick > tnt punch + finish > jump D, etc.
For some odd reason i can do s.C, f+b, hcf+A....what gives?
^Not sure what you mean?
wait a sec, I think you can DC it off of hurricane.
Damn, that's right, no DC'ing off of hurricane....so no comboing into EX heel for ground combos... oh wells
You can do s.D <delay> f.B > A hurrican <no cancel> EX tnt > continue with fun punishings...for comboing from hurricane which is pretty good if you get the opportunity.
So just tried this which is pretty cool:
1 Stock, No Drive Gauge
(corner)j.D, s.D, (delay) f.B, hcf+A, [AC], qcb+D, dp+B, [A](2~3hits), qcb+A, j.D = 465
@Desmond, could we add this to the wiki? I think it's great damage for 1 meter and no drive and looks cool.
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Golden heel can still be used as an AA if done early. Both strengths allow juggles afterwards, but B is hell unsafe on block.
I thought B golden heel had better recovery than D? Gonna have to check that out in training later on. Worth mentioning is that D golden heel on block is suicide against grapplers while the B version puts you at a better distance.
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Golden heel can still be used as an AA if done early. Both strengths allow juggles afterwards, but B is hell unsafe on block. Use D heel for that, afterwards you can use EX slash kick to carry them towards the corner for some juggling.
Near the corner you can D heel > tiger kick <DC> screw upper or > tiger kick > tnt punch + finish > jump D, etc.
For some odd reason i can do s.C, f+b, hcf+A....what gives?
^Not sure what you mean?
wait a sec, I think you can DC it off of hurricane.
Damn, that's right, no DC'ing off of hurricane....so no comboing into EX heel for ground combos... oh wells
You can do s.D <delay> f.B > A hurrican <no cancel> EX tnt > continue with fun punishings...for comboing from hurricane which is pretty good if you get the opportunity.
So just tried this which is pretty cool:
1 Stock, No Drive Gauge
(corner)j.D, s.D, (delay) f.B, hcf+A, [AC], qcb+D, dp+B, [A](2~3hits), qcb+A, j.D = 465
@Desmond, could we add this to the wiki? I think it's great damage for 1 meter and no drive and looks cool.
KOF XIII joe really reminds me of 97 joe. Anyways Im sorry i made a typo last post. I meat that i couldnt get hcf+A after his normal staple combo s.C, f+B, hcf+A. Do you have to delay after the standing D?
I know you can DC hcf +A into EX TNT punch. Starting to find joes combos arent really that hard! Even his simple ones do so much damage.
As for golden heel, BOTH are punishable by instant throw but you can make them (especially b) safe if you space it correctly (ie letting just the tip hit the opponent). B is for anti air and D is just for combos.
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KOF XIII joe really reminds me of 97 joe. Anyways Im sorry i made a typo last post. I meat that i couldnt get hcf+A after his normal staple combo s.C, f+B, hcf+A. Do you have to delay after the standing D?
I know you can DC hcf +A into EX TNT punch. Starting to find joes combos arent really that hard! Even his simple ones do so much damage.
As for golden heel, BOTH are punishable by instant throw but you can make them (especially b) safe if you space it correctly (ie letting just the tip hit the opponent). B is for anti air and D is just for combos.
As far as i know s.C f.B can't be comboed into A Hurricane Upper, s.D delayed f.B A Hurricane Upper works in the corner though.
Joes combos are pretty comfortable once you get the hang of them, and because it is Joe, they are also awesome.
Expected them to be throw punishable, what i'm really interested in though is whether they are punishable with combos. Doesn't seem that way to me so i've been using the B version for strings and preemptive anti airs and the heavy version to chase A Hurricanes.
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Yep ^ the fluke is correct. s.C f.B can't be comboed into A Hurricane Upper.
And as you guys say, heel is punishable by 1 frame throws.
Buriki,
I know you can DC hcf +A into EX TNT punch. Starting to find joes combos arent really that hard! Even his simple ones do so much damage.
Hurricane is not actually DC'able, but EX TNT is within range and fast enough to punish then launch after
(corner)j.D, s.D, (delay) f.B, hcf+A
Yeah I agree that his combos are not that hard at all. The only time it can get tricky is with combos that include multiple tnts.
Right now I'm on a bit of a quest to find a combo that will carry the opponent from corner to corner. The only stable one I know of is the training mode one (#7 I think), but that's quite costly. I submitted a pretty efficient one to wiki, but that was a mid-screen one ~_~
Joes combos are pretty comfortable once you get the hang of them, and because it is Joe, they are also awesome.
^fo sho!
Hey Fluke, btw, B heel can be safe most of the time if the tip is blocked, but think your much better off with D for that. Check out practice mode and use D heel with the dummy on 1-hit guard. When you jump immediately after, you'll see that Joe's pretty much at 0 where B seems to be -3 or so.
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Hey Fluke, btw, B heel can be safe most of the time if the tip is blocked, but think your much better off with D for that. Check out practice mode and use D heel with the dummy on 1-hit guard. When you jump immediately after, you'll see that Joe's pretty much at 0 where B seems to be -3 or so.
Hmm.. I've got to get to checking that out soon, i imagine that B heel might have better relative recovery against crouchers than standing opponents seeing how it hits. -3 is dangerous even at the range it leaves you.. I've been busy with other things, so i haven't gotten around to test this yet, i will next time i hit training mode though.
*I've tested a bit and yes, B golden heel clearly has worse recovery. I did however find something fun; if you are right next to your opponent and he/she crouches you can either do B golden heel directly or after a either crouching or standing jab and it will cross up the opponent. It is however only 35 damage so it may barely ever be the perfect choice. It doesn't seem to be possible to combo off of, not even on counter hit, but if the opponent gets scared or confused it could work as an ugly mixup or whatever people call it. May actually get a combo off of it just because the opponent doesn't know what's up.
Also, D golden heel only hits once on crouchers. Never noticed that because generally when i combo into it it is off of a string starting with d.B.
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Fluke, that's some pretty cool tech. I would have never noticed either as I do a lot of stuff in the corner. Your 'crossup of filth' ahhah -would be awsome for for oki attacking away the corner where crossing up wouldn't happen.
My friend, you have given me my first ever use for s.B more damage than s.A (30 v 25).
I think I will s.B > B heel. And I think to the unsuspecting, you could just spam another B heel right away which gives you yet another crossup from that position.
Damn, you finding this out made me reconfirm that you cannot possibly combo after hitting with B heel lol
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Right now I'm on a bit of a quest to find a combo that will carry the opponent from corner to corner. The only stable one I know of is the training mode one (#7 I think), but that's quite costly. I submitted a pretty efficient one to wiki, but that was a mid-screen one ~_~
Thought there was nothing good for this until I saw metaphysics Joe on the SWAG combo contest on the home page m(_ _)m RIDICULOUS. Why the hell would I need a coast to coast when I can just blast the opponent back and forth like a pinball.
I'll have to check, but its along the lines of:
j.D (can use crossup), s.C (HD), df.B, (hcf+D, (HDC)dp+B)Xn...
{changing direction on each hcf+D}
and then didn't get to see it in the video, but the finisher ought to be
...dp+B, (HDC)qcfX2+P, (MC)qcfX2+K (if enough stock)
'Tis execution madness for me, but will try to make it stable.
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Alright, how CRACKINGLY hard is it to TnT finish, (SC) screw upper?
You have to have insanely fast hands unless there is a shortcut.
I do AAAA then qcb+A on the last A then just crank out screw upper, but I'm like 10% with this method.
I'd love to be able to finish combos with that as it looks like you can follow up after screw if they're high up...
Anyone have any idea how in the hell to do this?
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Alright, how CRACKINGLY hard is it to TnT finish, (SC) screw upper?
You have to have insanely fast hands unless there is a shortcut.
I do AAAA then qcb+A on the last A then just crank out screw upper, but I'm like 10% with this method.
I'd love to be able to finish combos with that as it looks like you can follow up after screw if they're high up...
Anyone have any idea how in the hell to do this?
If screw upper is qcf x2 punch. Can't you just do another qcf+P and that'll super cancel?
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Hey Reiki.
TnT finish is qcb+P, so after that have to do qcfx2+P
and the cancellable frams on the finish are bizarrely short...
Cracking I tell ya T_T
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Hey Reiki.
TnT finish is qcb+P, so after that have to do qcfx2+P
and the cancellable frams on the finish are bizarrely short...
Cracking I tell ya T_T
Oh! Well, if you already tried to confirm my combos for Maxima, Booster, you should be able to do that. It's the same motion as doing vapor cannon into double vapor cannon.
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Yeah you would think, but it's hell sever :(
The maxima one is very solid (feels like there's more buffer time) compared to this which I can only describe as froth causing lol
Out of curiosity, are you able to pull this off with regularity?
Joe's trial 5 & 10 use it.
If it was consistent for me I would love it.
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Alright I'm up to like 15% success which is abysmal.
Yo, see how well you get tnt> finish> screw upper consistently so you can feel this pain
cuz sharing is caring ;)
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I've tried trial 5 with Joe and just realized that it was way more effort than i wanted to put into one combo at the time hehe.. I went on and learned different stuff instead, maybe it is time to revisit that it.
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I'm brand new to KOF but am loving these insanely hard trial combos! I've done 1-9 but 10 is giving me fits because I can't seem to figure out how to get the qcfx2 after the TnT finish to juggle high enough to allow the next Tnt xx finish xx qcfX2 PP to combo. The demo shows the first desperation move hitting again after the dummy pops high off the top of the screen, but even though I can consistenly get the desperation to hit and the combo to connect, mine never does that extra hit after the juggle.
I've tried everything I can think of, from delaying the earlier hits of the combo to delaying the finish, and can always get it to connect but never get that extra hit. Any ideas, Higashi gurus? Thanks in advance.
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heys guys whats the trick for D, F+B , Hurricane Upper. When i do this my F+B ends up pushing me too far to connect the hurricane
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heys guys whats the trick for D, F+B , Hurricane Upper. When i do this my F+B ends up pushing me too far to connect the hurricane
Just delay the forward B and it will link properly. Lots of active frames on Joe's stand D, wich also means that it is a good meaty attack and that you have some extra time to hitconfirm. You can also link A hurricane after doing s.A, f.B upclose in the corner if you want to use the basic idea of the combo but want a different way to start it.
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I've tested some stuff with Joe's stand C+D. It apparently doesn't extend his low hitable box so it can be used as a counter to sweeps and low aimed normals like specifically Ryo's stand D. Spaced correctly wich is a bit outside the range where you will walk into (because Joe's C+D moves you forward) Ryo's stand D you will allways beat it clean and can relatively safely cancel your C+D into for example A hurricane without worrying about some of his options atleast. It is also possible to whiff punish Ryos A ko'oukens with C+D and though you have to be quick about it, it is possible on reaction. It may well be relevant against for example Kyo and Goros fs.B and s.B respectively aswell so it's worth further testing.
It is regardless probably joe's best ranged poke and even serves as a valid anti air option imo so finding out exactly how good it is could be usefull.
+Further testing has shown that most characters, excluding Joe (not Hwa for some reason) and Goro and possibly some other poor characters (dunno who that would be yet, if any) have too good reach on their sweeps and will either trade or just beat Joe's stand C+D depending on spacing and timing ofc. It does however work wonder against most other crouching normals it seems. Against Raiden atleast it beat c.A c.B and c.C for free even though with c.C Raiden's arm clearly stretches out through Joe's leg.
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Great to know that. I use Joe's s.CD pretty often. Mostly to kara cancel which works great too.
Another good poke to use sparingly is f.B if you sure it will at least be blocked, you will want to cancel it though.
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Another good poke to use sparingly is f.B if you sure it will at least be blocked, you will want to cancel it though.
I do use it off of a whiffed s.D in order to get that extra range at the cost of a longer startup. On the plus side, the "startup" will then obviously be a poke of it's own so to say and it will only be a bonus if the s.D part actually hits aswell. Slightly different than just a f.B but just the same a pretty unsafe option, still a good/fun option to have.
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Don't know if this has been mentioned but found something extremely useful today while messing in practice.
Turns out that Joe's df+B slide is basically built for HD bypassing. The best part? You can actually visually hit confirm that the slide hit and still have a ton of time to bypass into whatever you want:
- straight into neomax
- into slash kick [max cancel] neomax
- into slash kick >continue into HD combo of choice
Just try it, the window to bypass after hitting with the slide is huge.
So essentially if you have HD and 2 bars you are guaranteed at least 50% damage off of any slide (be it raw or in the midst of a combo), easy to do and easy to hit confirm. If you want more damage you can obviously go into a full HD combo easy. What I like about going into neomax is the easy damage and it works anywhere on the screen (like Saiki's cB cB, QCB+B [bypass] neomax combo)
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Don't know if this has been mentioned but found something extremely useful today while messing in practice.
Turns out that Joe's df+B slide is basically built for HD bypassing. The best part? You can actually visually hit confirm that the slide hit and still have a ton of time to bypass into whatever you want:
- straight into neomax
- into slash kick [max cancel] neomax
- into slash kick >continue into HD combo of choice
Just try it, the window to bypass after hitting with the slide is huge.
So essentially if you have HD and 2 bars you are guaranteed at least 50% damage off of any slide (be it random or in the midst of a combo), easy to do and easy to hit confirm. If you want more damage you can obviously go into a full HD combo easy. What I like about going into neomax is the easy damage and it works anywhere on the screen (like Saiki's cB cB, QCB+B [bypass] neomax combo).
Some HD combos from df+B are up on the combo thread.
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Some HD combos from df+B are up on the combo thread.
And?
My post wasn't about HD combos off of the slide it was about how huge the window to bypass after a slide is. You can wait to see if any of your slides hit and still have more than enough time to bypass into whatever you want for big damage.
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^yeah that's definitely useful to note. Will see about incorporating that into my game if it makes sense with what I'm already doing. Reason I dismissed it is bc, d.B, s.A, f.B [HD] was my standard low confirm start. Maybe this will come in handy for me from further away.
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Here's some inspiration for you Joe players, Bala style:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hv80GmF8I-c#t=410s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hv80GmF8I-c#t=410s)
^yeah that's definitely useful to note. Will see about incorporating that into my game if it makes sense with what I'm already doing. Reason I dismissed it is bc, d.B, s.A, f.B [HD] was my standard low confirm start. Maybe this will come in handy for me from further away.
I can confirm this works in real match situations. I hit the guy with a raw slide, visually confirmed the successful hit and then went straight into HD.
Unfortunately I was so happy it worked that I forgot my HD combo and dropped it.
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Nice post crazy Bala is good with so many characters O.O!! Anyways around about the 10:00 minute mark they point out that he did a frame trap. I've been trying to understand how frame traps work. Was the frame trap crouching b into stand c or was it jump D, crouch b, into stand c?
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Frame Traps are basically intentionally using a move on block then following up with your quickest normal attempting to catch any buttons the opponent pressed in the gap.
Example, you do a normal that is -1 on block. You then follow up after recovery with a 3 frame normal. That will leave a 2 frame gap to which you will beat out a lot of normals if they're pressed in the meantime. You can also use specials and such in the same way, though it tends to be riskier.
I don't know Joe's frame data, but cr.B into cl.C is a basic frame trap a lot of characters have in XIII it seems. Some are more effective than others.
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the frametrap in that vid would have to be c.B walkup s.C, but i don't think that should be considered a frametrap as there is a fair deal of time inbetween and i'm quite sure the other player could have poked out.
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I can confirm this works in real match situations. I hit the guy with a raw slide, visually confirmed the successful hit and then went straight into HD.
Hey man,
Got around to messing with it a bit today. So I tried df.B from midscreen into HDB slash kick thinking I would DC into EX slash and take them into the corner like I normally do with standard s.C, f.B, [HD], s.C, f.B, hcf+B, [DC] hcf+BD.
So after the HDB when I went to DC into EX slash, it would consistently make Joe do heel in the opposite direction when he was never even close to being on the opposite side of the opponent! D-:
Crazed bug.
So to work it into my regular gameplay, I'll probably reserve it for those cases where I really want to HD, but am too far from the corner. Will probably do (various starts), f.B, [HD]s.C, df.B, and loop {hcf+D, dp+B, [DC]hcf+D, dp+B....}
^That's the one metaphysics was doing on that UCI combo contest where hcf+D travels to the opposite side of the opponent each time.
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Did you try to wait the recover of the move before DC? (like terry qcb.P, when he slide on the ground he's still recovering and it's DCable).
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Sorry, should've been clearer. I ran into that bug when doing the slide from far away and bypassed into HD mode with hcf+BC which you have to do before the move recovers. Or if you mean recovery of slash kick, you have to DC into EX slash kick before slash kick recovers if you hope to juggle. Works normally all the time if you don't bypass out of slide.
Anyways, the 2nd usage case I posted seems to work ok, just have to be sure you give auto-dash enough time to get close or you'll be too far to get onto the other side of the opponent with strong slash kick. I'll tinker around a bit more and see how useful it'll be for me at those awkward screen positions where I normally wouldn't be able to carry the opponent to the corner since Joe has no real coast to coast tools. (there is one in trials, but that's retarded on meter usage).
I think the real benefit for what I'm trying to do could be had if I did the direction change juggle only once. Say Joe's in the corner, you could start an HD off of confirm, slide, strong slash, DC tiger, DC weak slash (so as not to go back to other side of opponent), DC EX slash (carry opponent into corner and juggle), commence tiger~heel loop as usual.
Diavle, props for the idea - if my plan works this will make Joe pretty damn good in some situations fighting out of the corner.
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Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah its definitely a bug it looks like, if you do the HCB+D instead then Joe will do the ex slash but in the opposite direction of the opponent. Seems the system gets confused on directions since you can input to either side. If you dp+K then Joe does the tiger knee proper but if you rdp then he does it in the opposite direction.
So in the alternative you can just HDB into the EX heel after the slide instead of the ex slash kick. After the ex heel you can raw juggle with the B slash kick and then go into the usual hd loop. The combination of ex heel and slash kick provide great corner carry.
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anyone got tips on learning the stun combo? how do yall put in the machine gun upper move and maybe the timing?
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anyone got tips on learning the stun combo? how do yall put in the machine gun upper move and maybe the timing?
I've just learned the combo myself so i'd first of all recommend splitting the combo up so you can use it as a bnb. Just do the combo up untill the first drive cancel and end with a reset j.D instead and you've got an efficient combo.
I do the rapid punches by quickly inputing 3xc, qcb+c (shouldn't matter wich punch you use, it's just a matter of preference for me). You shouldn't mash because you will wear yourself out, controlled motions give better results in and outside of the game. By using a simplified version of the combo you will have a good option that helps you practice during games aswell as in practice mode, and when it gets comfortable you should probably find that you will naturally start figuring out the timing and feel of the rest of the combo.
This is how i went about learning it, i hope to start using it in games after my next training mode session since i'm a bit clumsy with it atm, especially from the player 2 side for some reason, but it shouldn't be too hard to fix.
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Very nice!
Can you list out the one that you are doing?
I've seen a number variations on ways to get stun with Joe (had some notes somewhere), and had put it off for a while in favor of trying not to build up opponent meter. These days, have more or less naturally started to incorporate quite a few of the parts for normal combos so figured I may as well explore a bit more.
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I do one very similar to what i've seen bala do; c.B , s.A , f.B , hcf+B+D , srk+B , 3xC qcb+C (tnt) dc qcb+D , tnt , srk+B , tnt dc qcb+B+D , qcb+B , tnt , srk+B , tnt , tnt (bounce opponent once on rapid punches then uppercut , full jump D = stun.
From a jump in D, s.C, f.B starter you don't need to do the extended tnt punches at the end and can end it slightly more comfortably. Also, bala does the EX golden heel earlier in the combo than i do atm, and that should yield better damage, i do it like this because it feels comfortable to me atm.
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Thanks for putting it up - think I'll follow suite. I'm going to look for my notes as well, bc I saw another one that looked pretty reasonable in case peeps are interested.
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I'm working on the dizzy combo as well, this one in particular
KOFXIII: Joe (Midscreen, 0.8 Stock, 78% Drive) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AI-EhJDftw#ws)
I have found double tapping the TNTs and buffering ;dn ;db ;bk between the doubletaps really helps with clean inputs, so inputs look like this with display on
;c
;c
;bk
;db
;dn
;c
;c
I get the perfect TNT every time due to this.
However I am having a hard time understanding the juggle count at the end (after burning both drive bars and using TNT for a couple hits then jump ;d for dizzy). Sometimes I'll get the TNT to hit, sometimes it wont, sometimes I'll get one hit but not 2 before the 214 and be unable to jump D, sometimes I'll get it all, but it's hard to figure out WHY exactly.
I was thinking maybe it has something to do with how many hits of TNT they get hit by at the end, but it's not easy to test so if anyone has come across this issue before please share some information as I am so close to getting this dependably every time.
EDIT: My problem was I was not mashing out TNT fast enough at the end (for the final part, doubletapping disrupted my rhythm!), I'm now hitting this combo with ~75% accuracy. Still working on getting a clean launch after the 2nd hit of TNT, but at that point it's a reset to stun anyways so dropping it isn't the worst thing on the planet.
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Interesting input method, I shall give that a try.
And found that compilation of Joe stun death by Haregoro himself.
(5m 35s mark)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rfoVw2t_fc&#t=5m35s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rfoVw2t_fc&#t=5m35s)
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Thanks for sharing! I love seeing creative Leona combos.
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Be careful it's arcade version combo.
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Yeah that's a good caveat. Should be interesting to see if all of that still works although it stands a chance to...
Reminds me, Haregoro was on a KCE vid for testing out Joe (the one at the bottom of the wiki). Him and Dune were discussing console changes. They were talking about Joe doing a little less stun on some move, but more elsewhere - they basically laughed at the change as Joe could stun pretty easily anyways.
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Interesting input method, I shall give that a try.
And found that compilation of Joe stun death by Haregoro himself.
(5m 35s mark)
And this is why I never play as white tiger shorts Joe, just not worthy.
What he does is definitely a lot more execution heavy than Bala. Its also interesting to note that he is the only Joe player who incorporates mash punches as part of his ground chains for combos (since the initial punches have near instant recovery and you can link normals/supers after them). He does them in actual matches, not just combo videos. Those recent console matches Dune posted with him were simply awesome, still the most unique and fun Joe to watch imo.
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Definitely agree with that. His meta game is extremely fun to watch. Very unpredictable and does quite well breaking down guard where Joe is classically a chr with few options for doing that.
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What is the Joe vs Beni matchup like?
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I have very limited experience with benimaru, but i would assume that it is pretty fair for both, though in beni's favor if any. Slash kick can punish whiffed raijinkens and so on, but then there's beni's j.D wich tends to straigth up beat joe's srk.D so that's a serious bummer. That j.D also tends to beat most of joe's air to airs on even level so you have to either be above beni or properly space a j.C+D that may still trade. In my experience, it is simply surprisingly annoying.
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Learned the stun combo as well, so satisfying to do.
The best advice I got was from someone earlier in this thread who said to keep count of your punch presses instead of mashing. So I count 1,2,3,4 (4 being the QCB+P) and it works really well, its almost more important to keep count than pay attention to the moves happening on screen because the triggering of the tnt finisher activates faster than it looks like Joe has recovered from his previous move.
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one extra thing to add to diavle's recommendation, hold down the P button when activating the rapid punch finisher, you have a surprisingly long time between it's activation and the point where you need to drive cancel so don't stress. It's all actually a lot easier than it seems.
Saying that though, i feel that it still is a combo that needs some warming up for, specifically the rapid punches because they do need to be consistent. I imagine as allways, it will get easier with time though with my right indexfinger roleplaying a water balloon i need some warmup just to get comfortable with it at all.
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Yeah holding the button down definitely helps, thanks. I've been doing it for HD combos but hadn't applied it to this yet.
Almost did the stun combo twice yesterday during an online match and both times I messed up right at the very end, still felt so good though, even received some complimetary hate mail from my opponent.
You're right it definitely needs warming up for, kind of a problem for me since I'm constantly rotating between characters.
I can see Joe becoming more popular in the future when ppl get a hang of this, its definitely a big threat. When you have the Answer picking up a character you know something is up lol.
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I'm working on the dizzy combo as well, this one in particular
KOFXIII: Joe (Midscreen, 0.8 Stock, 78% Drive) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AI-EhJDftw#ws)
I have found double tapping the TNTs and buffering ;dn ;db ;bk between the doubletaps really helps with clean inputs, so inputs look like this with display on
;c
;c
;bk
;db
;dn
;c
;c
I get the perfect TNT every time due to this.
However I am having a hard time understanding the juggle count at the end (after burning both drive bars and using TNT for a couple hits then jump ;d for dizzy). Sometimes I'll get the TNT to hit, sometimes it wont, sometimes I'll get one hit but not 2 before the 214 and be unable to jump D, sometimes I'll get it all, but it's hard to figure out WHY exactly.
I was thinking maybe it has something to do with how many hits of TNT they get hit by at the end, but it's not easy to test so if anyone has come across this issue before please share some information as I am so close to getting this dependably every time.
EDIT: My problem was I was not mashing out TNT fast enough at the end (for the final part, doubletapping disrupted my rhythm!), I'm now hitting this combo with ~75% accuracy. Still working on getting a clean launch after the 2nd hit of TNT, but at that point it's a reset to stun anyways so dropping it isn't the worst thing on the planet.
thanks for the info and the video , this helped a lot. i like doing it this way, i dont have it down yet , but im practicing. Joe is a beast. Is it possible to do a 100% combo with joe?
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I believe i've seen japanese videos with 100%+ damage, but beyond the novelty, i don't care much since their meter efficiency is no where near that of the basic stun combo popularised by bala.
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thanks for the info and the video , this helped a lot. i like doing it this way, i dont have it down yet , but im practicing. Joe is a beast. Is it possible to do a 100% combo with joe?
To be frank I'm not quite sure. If there is, it will burn all of your meter most likely.
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aah okay i see. with regards to the tnt punch , i find it easier to double tap with the A rather than the C.
The second tnt punch is the one i struggle with the most. Only one punch should hit, i usually get 2.
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Keep practicing, as long as you buffer the ;dn ;db ;bk properly prior to the second double tap, it should come out perfectly each time.
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aah okay i see. with regards to the tnt punch , i find it easier to double tap with the A rather than the C.
The second tnt punch is the one i struggle with the most. Only one punch should hit, i usually get 2.
If you are getting 2 hits then you are doing it too late, gotta do it earlier.
Basically in this combo you gotta do stuff one after another, there should be no delay. There is no too early.
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when executing the tnt's and the golden heels in the stun combos, does the version matter? seems like both work but i want to make sure im not losing out on anything, regardless of how minimal.
also, it seems like the EX heel does no stun, so is it's only purpose when added to a combo purely for damage? if so, is it better to omit it when going purely for stun?
Thanks! picking up joe and it's way too much fun
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All ex moves or moves under hd mode does 0 stun.
Ex heel is only used because it relaunch your opponent higher. See below
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when executing the tnt's and the golden heels in the stun combos, does the version matter? seems like both work but i want to make sure im not losing out on anything, regardless of how minimal.
also, it seems like the EX heel does no stun, so is it's only purpose when added to a combo purely for damage? if so, is it better to omit it when going purely for stun?
Thanks! picking up joe and it's way too much fun
Yeah I think either works, I usually use the D version for heel and A for tnts.
EX moves and supers do no stun. The idea is to get some decent damage in before the heavy damage scaling kicks in. I've seen Haregoro do 2 or 3 EX heels in a row after a drive cancel before doing a regular heel and continuing with the stun combo. But yeah you don't need those EX heels at all if you don't have the meter or just want the stun, its just for added damage.
At minimum, 78% drive (you build the rest mid combo) and 1 power meter is all you really need for the stun combo.
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Combos nobody does but should do (TM)
midscreen
0 drive 0 meter
c.B c.B s.A f.B hcf.B, s.A (resets) hcf.A
Hurricane cancel keeps them locked down at just over s.CD range. Not thoroughly tested what opponent can do wrt reversals but its safe from everything I tested (fast ex ranbus, dps etc.). If your opponent rolls back, jumps or presses a button they get hit, if they roll forward you get a full punish.
2 drive, 3 meter
j.C s.C f.B hd s.C [AAA qcb.A (TnT) dc qcb.D]x2, hcf.B dc hcf.A dc qcfqcf.A dc qcfqcf.BD
860+ damage - if my maths is correct, not tested this for numbers but pulled it off in match. Its vital that on the first TnT you don't get more than one punch before the finisher (or you lose at least 40 damage for each one you let come out). Full screen carry makes this combo worthwhile, there's not many times you'll get that much damage out of the corner quite so easily.
corner
0 meter 0 drive
c.B c.B s.A f.B hcf.B, AAA qcb.A (TnT), AAAAA qcb.A (TnT), j.D
330+ damage off a low, only works with 3 taps into step kick
The anywhere HD combo can be changed at the end for 1 bar so do ex slash kick then go into tiger kick, TnT stuff we all know and love. I've not tested but I think you'll get time for one more dc at the end on the TnT too. Yes, it uses all of your meter but by the time you get to pull it off you'll usually be a character up with plenty of time to build it back (and if you pull it off successfully your opponent won't require drive to be bodied).
I see altogether too many Joe players concentrating solely on getting into stun combo and not maximising damage throughout their game, especially if their middle character is heavily drive/meter dependant. Hopefully these will help somewhat.
Other things of note
In the corner if you throw then whiff TnT (minimal presses, no finisher) its safe from (and usually baits out) DPs.
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The thing with the stun combo is that while you may not be maximising damage, you build almost enough meter to loop it by doing it. Also, if you reset just before stunning your opponent and then land a hit or two after that, you may get to do some 400+ damage for one bar, easily knocking out your current opponent.
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The thing with the stun combo is that while you may not be maximising damage, you build almost enough meter to loop it by doing it. Also, if you reset just before stunning your opponent and then land a hit or two after that, you may get to do some 400+ damage for one bar, easily knocking out your current opponent.
I didn't mean ignore the stun combo, just go for these as well when you get an opening.
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That's fine, whatever works works you know but my point was simply that the stun combo isn't good simply because it deals alot of damage.
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That's fine, whatever works works you know but my point was simply that the stun combo isn't good simply because it deals alot of damage.
I think you've misunderstood my initial post. I suggest using these in addition to the stun combos as at the point of initiation it covers circumstances where you cannot get into stun or perhaps do not have the meter/don't want to burn it if you know a meterless combo to do that much damage.
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Nice combos, learned and added to my game...especially the 0/0 corner combo, already added that to use after a successful stun leaves me with little to work with.
Speaking of post stun combos, what are people using afterwards to maximize damage? Are there any combos that can build up a drive and use it as well? What do people use with 1 bar? with 2? What about resets?
Been playing around with the various starters and fun style variants but if anyone knows whats optimal, I'd love to know.
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That's fine, whatever works works you know but my point was simply that the stun combo isn't good simply because it deals alot of damage.
I think you've misunderstood my initial post. I suggest using these in addition to the stun combos as at the point of initiation it covers circumstances where you cannot get into stun or perhaps do not have the meter/don't want to burn it if you know a meterless combo to do that much damage.
I get what you where saying and the meterless combos are ofcourse great, i do not argue that at all. It's just that most of the time, Joe would, in my opinion, be better off using a stun combo instead of using an HD combo. And as i said previously whatever works works. There are times when you land a hit and your only option is to go for HD or so so midscreen damage because you are either too far from the wall or you're just uncertain.
@Duggish After scoring a stun i start the combo with s.D f.B hcf.A AC*4 (i think you just need to hit the button three times but i don't want to mess with muscle memory) since damage scaling at this point should be at its peak, the EX tnt punches that allways do pretty good damage but cause alot of scaling should now be the single strongest special move you could use that also launches perfectly for followups. Typically after EX tnt you would want to use qcb.D tnt srk.B tnt j.D. If you're comfortable with it you can cancel the last tnt into a screw upper for extra damage at the end aswell.
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Ok, figured out the damage on the HD combo and there's a better one >_<
j.C s.C f.B hd s.C PP qcb.P dc hcf.D dc dp.B, PPP qcb.P dc qcb.D, hcf.B dc hcf.A dc qcfqcf.A dc qcfqcfBD
878 damage, 3 meter, 100% hd.
So for those capitalising on every hit there you go. Works anywhere on screen as far as I can tell.
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@fluke - nice, good point about the scaling...thanks. and yes i'm comfy with the upper so i guess ill see how much damage that nets me guaranteed, to use if it will ko
any word on joe frame data?
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No Joe frames yet... will post those when keykakko captures them.
So had been away from Joe for quite some time beefing up other chrs.
Finally came back to him today as it had always bothered me that I didn't have a full screen HD at a cost I could swallow - FINALLY come up with one. This is a result of getting crazy razzed at how unstable the slide > hcf+D pinball combo is when practicing it today.
1 stock minimum
Truly full screen, you can be pressed up into the corner.
(own corner)
j.D, s.C, f.B, [HD]s.C, f.B, hcf+Bi,ii, [HDC]dp+BD, [HDC]qcb+D, hcf+Biii, [DC]{dp+B, [HDC]qcb+D}x2, dp+B, [SC]qcfx2+BD (and if you have enough stock left for NM) = 865
i - wait a split second during slash if truly in the corner
ii - 880 dmg if using hcf+D instead (timing becomes tighter for next slash)
iii - if you think you are still too far away (started w d.B, s.A, f.B pressed up in corner), you can recover by DC'ing into hcf+BD off of hcf+B
Other than stun (meter giving and difficulty goes against my grain), feeling a lot better about my Joe as his most glaring weakness for me is gone.
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Sorry completely forgot to post a 919 full screen 3 bar one I've been doing a while, works, again from your back against the wall and nose to nose with your opponent.
j.C s.C f.B hd s.C df.B (slight delay) hcf.D [dc dp.B dc hcf.D]*2 dc hcf.A dc qcfqcf.A dc qcfqcf.BD
You have to wait until the dm has finished hitting to max cancel, otherwise the neomax eats the hits. You only get an extra 30 damage off an ex dm so I don't think its really worth it.
Just delay the cancel off the slide a little or you need to do another (more showboaty) combo which is no doubt the pinball biobooster is on about. A little practice and its probably the easiest combo Joe has.
Its really easy to confirm off of s.A c.B s.A f.B instead of the jump in too, step kick's hitstun is ridiculous. In that case you're looking at 818. No modification required.
For those that do care (personally does not bother me a jot):
It builds your opponent about 1.7 meter and 70% drive too.
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thanks Bio, patiently waiting for the data =]
so with the stun combo, i'm having difficulty consistently landing the final kick for stun...the only spot where I'm not 100% confident in my execution of said combo is the mashing punches @ the end, I notice that sometimes the opponent is launched to the top of the screen, while other times they remain lower. Even if they go up higher, I can still sometimes get the hit, while when they're lower I might miss. What can i do to tighten up the end of the combo?
I'm currently very solid with the instant cancel version of the punches, and feel like this must just be a timing thing with the extra hits +ender before the j.D
Any help is appreciated, it's frustrating to have the rest of the combo and various starters down comfortably, while the final piece to tie it all together is missing...thanks
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I find its easier and iirc you get more damage for doing the cancel as the last bounce is hitting, as opposed to them popping up and come back down onto it.
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In doing Joe's stun combo. When do I start executing his multiple punches? I'm using the technique mentioned on the last page ;c ;c ;dn ;db ;bk ;c ;c, but I can't seem to figure when to start pressing it after doing the LK DP. Sometimes I'll get it out of sheer luck, or I'll just miss completely. Is it possible for someone to upload a video of the combo with inputs so it's easy to see when exactly to press it?
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I start inputing the rapid punches after the second hit of B tiger kick and keep the last button pressed to get it to activate properly on the correct frame. I input the rapid punches quickly so this is what makes sense to me.
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Balas stun combo video has the inputs on.
I do the same as the fluke but I double double tap.
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Thanks, guys. I'm going to hit up practice mode and see if I can do it. I didn't think to hold down the last button. Can someone direct me to Bala's video of the stun combo? I don't know his youtube channel.
That tip about starting right when the second hit of the DP starts REALLY helped me out a lot, so thanks for that tip. I'm starting to get it! Now comes the part of consistently doing it and getting the DC after the finisher.
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A video wot I maed.
http://youtu.be/Af7ku4UMdOY (http://youtu.be/Af7ku4UMdOY)
I'll also be capturing all of his normals and calculating his frame data seeing as there isn't seemingly anyone else in a rush to do so.
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very nice.
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kupô
Any safe-jump setups ?
thanks
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Not really tested many safejump setups seeing as everything but qcfhcb.P are at best soft knockdowns or you will be resetting off them into either hurricane lockdown midscreen or with j.D in the corner. I don't think that qcfhcb.P gives you a safejump because of the terrible jump arc. I think you should get the option of a whiffed safe s.A or a meaty s.D but don't hold me to that yet.
One thing that is guaranteed is in the corner off a throw, whiff a TnT and its safe. For some reason people love trying to reversal that one on wakeup... they'll soon stop and just accept my free meter gain.
[EDIT]: yeah, you don't even get a safe hop off qcfhcb.P. Seeing at thats more than likely your only knockdown then we're poop out of luck.
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Thanks, guys. I'm going to hit up practice mode and see if I can do it. I didn't think to hold down the last button. Can someone direct me to Bala's video of the stun combo? I don't know his youtube channel.
That tip about starting right when the second hit of the DP starts REALLY helped me out a lot, so thanks for that tip. I'm starting to get it! Now comes the part of consistently doing it and getting the DC after the finisher.
I *think* I got a more calculated method of doing it after talking to finches about his video on IRC.
Basically tap rapidly 4 times. On the forth tap make sure it's at the end of the QCB back motion for the finisher. So tap 3 times then qcb+p.
So after the DP+B second hit I hit four times rapidly and when Joe lands it will be into the finisher. Of course it takes practice but I find it more calculated than spamming and I can't double tap. :)
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Not sure if it's posted anywhere, but can you hop over the strong version of Hurricane Upper? I've been trying and it doesn't seem to work, like the hitbox is bigger for that one in particular.
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not sure, it has so much recovery that it's crazy throwing it out randomly when the opponent is even fairly close. I'd gladly try and test it out a bit though because if it's hitbox is taller, then it might become more useful.
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Mistake in the front page:
His "Bakuretsuken" (tap ;a/ ;c) is misspelled. Someone needs to fix that.
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Very interesting new take on a practical HD combo for Joe, full screen carry (1:45):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NcM3Wu7lnkc#t=100s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NcM3Wu7lnkc#t=100s)
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Except it does way less damage than the full screen one I posted in my video, and is much harder than mine.
Mine you can also turn into 735 meterless.
The combo is:
s.D f.B hd s.C df.B hcf.D dc dp.B dc hcf.D dc dp.B dc hcf.D dc hcf.A, dp.B dc qcb.D, AAAqcb.A, dp.B, AAAqcb.A AAAAAAqcb.A, j.D
So its the one in the video, except where you do hurricane xx screw upper, you do hurricane and link a B tiger knee, drive cancel into D heel, and go into standard stun combo fare after the HD runs out.
However, the one in your video looks pretty cool.
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Why doesn't anyone use his ;fd + ;b command? It was useful for linking in past games...
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Why doesn't anyone use his ;fd + ;b command? It was useful for linking in past games...
Sorry what? Everyone uses it!
You just have to hit confirm it or be unpredictable with it because it leads to generally non-true blockstrings (you'll eat a ranbu) or massive punishes if you leave it uncancelled. The thing is -15f or so on block...
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Why doesn't anyone use his ;fd + ;b command? It was useful for linking in past games...
Sorry what? Everyone uses it!
You just have to hit confirm it or be unpredictable with it because it leads to generally non-true blockstrings (you'll eat a ranbu) or massive punishes if you leave it uncancelled. The thing is -15f or so on block...
It's just that I don't see it being used much in the videos I see. They mostly stick to the sliding move.
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It's just that I don't see it being used much in the videos I see. They mostly stick to the sliding move.
You've been watching very different videos to me. Then I rarely see other Joe players and carry on watching because most of them are pretty bad round here. Haregoro or bust tbh.
Slide is really ok in frame traps and as a start after hd to get into the best damage, but f.b needs hit confirming - if you get it off 3 lights you're in for some serious good stuff.
[Edit]: I mean slide xx TnT in strings.
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I think basic string for Joe should pretty much allways be "d.B d.B (for hitconfirm) s.A f.B" because this string enables good midscreen combos ending in setups (yay) and your best corner combo etc. aswell as giving you the ability to either easily dash or hop in again on block and thus do the same thing again. Typical, yes, but really good.
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Some video of me playing terribly just for the hell of it (I live away from other people so haven't been able to play real people in about 2 months). I drop pretty much every combo ever, don't hit confirm step kick, and cannot deal with Athena's jump arc. Oh, and I've not picked Shen before this. But you're not watching for him ;)
http://www.twitch.tv/secretsessions/b/338006418 (http://www.twitch.tv/secretsessions/b/338006418)
http://www.twitch.tv/secretsessions/b/338069990 (http://www.twitch.tv/secretsessions/b/338069990)
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I skipped through to see your Joe and he seems fine to me though you didn't seem to manage any combo's in the video. I noticed two things about your fwd.B usage; 1.You seem to missjudge distance and thus whiff it from time to time 2.You sometimes fail to follow up. that's life, but the latter especially is really a big nono if you aim to be competitive with him. You seem to play him more cautiously than i do btw and i respect that.
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Both of those are unfortunately due to lack of practice :(
At least its not just me that noticed, the second video should be me for the first 10 matches. Thanks for taking the time to watch. Need to get a lot more games in to get back to playing at the right speed - here's hoping I can sort something out to do that.
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Been putting lots more time into Joe and the more I play the more I feel that putting him on point (which is what most seem to do with him) is not the right approach when you consider how efficient he is with meter and his damage output. Switching him to the second position, personally.
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He loses a lot more when his opponent has meter. That's all I'm gonna chip in on that.
So long as you're picking him its all good.
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What is it exactly that he loses that can outweigh the damage and options (both defensive and offensive) he gains with meter?
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I think joe is fine either as first or second. Third makes little sense to me because at that point he gets nothing that he wouldn't already have had at second.
If you put him first you lack anti airs but have a solid basic game outside of that with frametraps and safejumps off of your bnb's etc and high damage in the corner.
If you put him second you should be able to get a stun combo off one way or another if you just get your opponent somewhere near the corner, and that could go as far as you want to/can afford to take it. EX tiger kick is also in my opinion one of the best standalone moves in the game as it easily punishes just about anything on the ground, including fireballs wich is allways fun and deals good damage while doing so. EX hurricane upper is also a nice tool to have at hand although i find that it's main use is to tell zoning happy players that they should rethink their strategy (hopefully they don't realize that there's only so much meter).
So basically play joe first; glass cannon, if he wins the first round he should hopefully have the meter to do what he could be able to during the second round, making knocking out a second character and then hopefully the third far more likely.
Play joe second; preserve the glass cannon so that any hit it causes could be devastating.
Either way is fine with me, though for third slot i prefer a character that is more solid.
I find that joe often gives me ocvs, though i do not believe it's because i am great with him nor that he himself is that great but rather that joe is based around pressure, and if the opponent caves in and starts getting hit, chances are the rest of his/her game will crumble and joe will cause some serious damage before the opponent calms down. Playing joe aggressively like i prefer to do naturally means taking risks with him so it makes sense for me to play him first so that i have a chance to pick the game up again if he fails.
When i say that joe often gives me ocvs, it's relative to my other characters.
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I think joe is fine either as first or second. Third makes little sense to me because at that point he gets nothing that he wouldn't already have had at second.
If you put him first you lack anti airs but have a solid basic game outside of that with frametraps and safejumps off of your bnb's etc and high damage in the corner.
If you put him second you should be able to get a stun combo off one way or another if you just get your opponent somewhere near the corner, and that could go as far as you want to/can afford to take it. EX tiger kick is also in my opinion one of the best standalone moves in the game as it easily punishes just about anything on the ground, including fireballs wich is allways fun and deals good damage while doing so. EX hurricane upper is also a nice tool to have at hand although i find that it's main use is to tell zoning happy players that they should rethink their strategy (hopefully they don't realize that there's only so much meter).
So basically play joe first; glass cannon, if he wins the first round he should hopefully have the meter to do what he could be able to during the second round, making knocking out a second character and then hopefully the third far more likely.
Play joe second; preserve the glass cannon so that any hit it causes could be devastating.
Either way is fine with me, though for third slot i prefer a character that is more solid.
I find that joe often gives me ocvs, though i do not believe it's because i am great with him nor that he himself is that great but rather that joe is based around pressure, and if the opponent caves in and starts getting hit, chances are the rest of his/her game will crumble and joe will cause some serious damage before the opponent calms down. Playing joe aggressively like i prefer to do naturally means taking risks with him so it makes sense for me to play him first so that i have a chance to pick the game up again if he fails.
When i say that joe often gives me ocvs, it's relative to my other characters.
Therein lies the problem I think, ppl are so tempted by his stun combo that it seems like that's all they use drive meter for with him. He can do so much more with drive and meter than just the stun combo and EX moves. Aside from being damn good with HD and drive cancel combos he is also one of the few characters in the game imo that can really capitalize off of raw drive cancels and raw super cancels, turning seemingly random or usually unfruitful situations into big damage.
I agree on the ocv thing, there is just something about him that throws the opponent off. Once he gets going its not easy to stop him, his play style I think isn't easy to pin down because he can easily vary between all out offence, turtling and hit and run. I'll play people that give my entire team trouble but out of nowhere Joe will start scoring ovcs.
In regards to anti-airs, planning to experiment with his tnt punch finisher as one. Its his only move that hits right above his head (not even his normals cover that area) and, going by how it catches opponents for combos where it looks like moves shouldn't, the dang thing must have at least 3 or 4 frames startup. So not as a good anti-air with invincibility but rather like a good fast anti-air normal like Shen and Billy's crouching C... that can be drive canceled.
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Joe gets access to stun combos in first place. All you need is 78% drive, opponent near a corner and to hit with a 2b.
He loses all of his insanely long pressure strings - they become much shorter because of just how punishable step kick and some other things are to gcab.
You get meter in first place... why do people seem to ignore the fact that you still get up to 3 bars and full drive? You start off in a position where your toe to toe game has less holes in it. That is why its advantageous to put him first. You get 720+ with hd and zero bar, up to 920 with 3. Putting him further back for more meter in hd combos is a bit fruitless as ex screw upper and screw upper don't differ that much in damage by the point you're using them.
Second your opponent will usually have one bar, and that can be devastating if they can guard roll and hit you for heap big damage.
Personal opinion is first. Or nothing.
But thats personal opinion.
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In regards to anti-airs, planning to experiment with his tnt punch finisher as one. Its his only move that hits right above his head (not even his normals cover that area) and, going by how it catches opponents for combos where it looks like moves shouldn't, the dang thing must have at least 3 or 4 frames startup. So not as a good anti-air with invincibility but rather like a good fast anti-air normal like Shen and Billy's crouching C... that can be drive canceled.
it probably does have 3-4 frames of startup, but because you have to input 4 button presses it becomes pretty slow unless you just buffer it into random jabs during footsies, wich could work ofcourse, but i don't think it will work on reaction the way d.C's usually do sadly. I'm going to test it out if i can get my friends to play some offline aswell, because it sounds interesting.
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In addition to the 3-4 frames of startup you have to kara it, you're looking at double that really.
Not that its a bad thing, but when you can use jump back a/b/d (depending on their jump arc) or just get the hell outta the way its a bit risky.
Buffering it into random jabs can lead to unexpected results, the game retains inputs for such a bloody long time!
Good luck!
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It may or may not work, but i'll give you a good scenario for using it; You're knocked down in the corner, the opponent neutral jumps over you, if you ex tiger kick on wake up you'll probably go under and fly away (not bad) and if you use heavy tiger kick you might well get beaten. If you input rapid punch finisher on wakeup it should come out at about optimal frames and hopefully hit the opponent before he/she can hit you.
That might work, and there might be more to it, so it's something worth getting creative with in my opinion.
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In that scenario I'd choose to run out of the corner and put them in it (if they are still in the air i'd press 5A to reset them too), unless you find you can walk out of the corner off it and get a full combo. All I'm saying is I'll not use it barely at all and stick to movement. Tell us if anything comes of it.
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it probably does have 3-4 frames of startup, but because you have to input 4 button presses it becomes pretty slow unless you just buffer it into random jabs during footsies, wich could work ofcourse, but i don't think it will work on reaction the way d.C's usually do sadly. I'm going to test it out if i can get my friends to play some offline aswell, because it sounds interesting.
Experimented some more with it and so far so good, its not perfect but neither are any of the good d.Cs (even Billy's gets stuffed). The most important thing seems to be to do the finisher with the fastest timing (the one you use in stun combos), his fist is up in the air damn near instantly this way and hits surprisingly high above his head. Effective against people jumping from the front as well.
One very interesting thing I noticed when practicing against Terry is that Joe's hurt-box is surprisingly accurate with the movement of his body. The tnt finisher moves his torso and arm forward as part of the animation and the hurt-box moves with it, it seems. So when I was testing the tnt finisher against cross ups and put Joe in a position where he would get crossed up by Terry, the crossup would whiff each time when he did the finisher even though it would cross up Joe if he was left standing neutral in that very same spot.
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One very interesting thing I noticed when practicing against Terry is that Joe's hurt-box is surprisingly accurate with the movement of his body. The tnt finisher moves his torso and arm forward as part of the animation and the hurt-box moves with it, it seems. So when I was testing the tnt finisher against cross ups and put Joe in a position where he would get crossed up by Terry, the crossup would whiff each time when he did the finisher even though it would cross up Joe if he was left standing neutral in that very same spot.
Good to hear that it seems promising.
Joe moving with the attack might be pretty good if you whiff because while you would probably be left punishable, you may atleast end up a bit further away and thus in a better position than if you where hit outright. And the recovery isn't really bad either, it's probably better than whiffing your average d.C.
@raisedbyfinches. I do actually agree with you, running or even rolling are both probably more solid options. But the more options you have the better.
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I can't for the life of me get the mash kara that works with pretty much all the other characters with mash buttons to work with Joe.
Billy, Clark etc. can all cancel the normals that don't cancel into anything but mash punches into other things by canceling the mash buttons before they come out.
E.g. Billy can do 5c 4a 623BD like this, clark can kara his turn punch by doing mash as a drive cancel and it gives better juggle.
Can someone with a bit more dexterity than me please check that Joe truly can't do it with his.
That will be a sad day. Hopefully I just need better fingers...
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far s.C can be cancelled into rapid punches on hit, block or whiff if that's what you're thinking of.
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That's not what I mean. I know it can be. The other characters can cancel their mash button moves for free before they come out. Making noncancellable moves magically cancellable.
Example if it worked:
Far s.C (baku kara) hcf.B
You would be cancelling the far C into the only buttons it cancels into but cancelling that before it comes out. This is exactly how it works for the characters I mentioned above.
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Can't tell, i can't even get it to work with ralf though, i'm inputing far s.D 3xC qcf.C and get rapid punches that drive cancel into the explody punch. Dunno how this is supposed to be done.
I get it to work with billy though. Easy with him, works off of b.A and d.A. Might have something to do with the speed of the rapid punches, Joe's are really fast after all, they might just be too fast.
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Yeah, my bad, doesn't work with Ralf.
Billy and Clark work.
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i've tried with all 4 characters and have pulled it off with only Clark and Billy. As for Ralf and Joe I haven't been able to do it even once.
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Then I guess stun off any button except sweep will remain a dream >_<
Far s.C was the right distance to get baku after the slash kick too. Ah well.
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what ya have in mind? maybe we can woek around it.
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Nah it was just far s.C hcf.B, TnT or df.b hcf.b - both would be great but if they can't be done then I'll just take TnT off them.
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Why not just use far D? It has the same range as far C and is special cancelable.
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Different speeds and hitboxes. Having different gaps in all your frame traps is kinda beneficial.
Say you anti-air with 5c, being able to kara into slash kick to be able to be point blank against their recovering or kara into hurricane for lockdown. There are plenty of reasons it'd be boom.
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Different speeds and hitboxes. Having different gaps in all your frame traps is kinda beneficial.
Say you anti-air with 5c, being able to kara into slash kick to be able to be point blank against their recovering or kara into hurricane for lockdown. There are plenty of reasons it'd be boom.
Sounds pointless.
For the purposes you mentioned earlier (comboing from further range), far D will suffice.
For anti-air into special mix up, sA does exactly what you want.
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Different gaps in frame traps certainly is not pointless.
Having a better damage version of an anti-air I already use to retain pressure is also not pointless.
But its all moot because its not kara-cancellable anyway.
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A well-spaced Golden Heel can be safe on block, but it's still fairly safe except for command throws. You can use D Golden Heel to apply pressure, but it's always best to space it and be at a distance to keep applying pressure than to forfeit pressure completely at the end of a special. NOTE: The opponent must be blocking. Df+B is special cancellable so you can do it from that.
Noticed it says the above in the wiki, that's false. Joe can't cancel his slide into anything but Bakuretsuken outside of HD.
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Yeah, i've thought of that first statement aswell, that golden heel is safe. The D version is just barely negative on block, but as far as spacing i think the only thing you can do to compensate for that is space so that you hit with the very edge of it so you don't land right smack next to your opponent. The B version is allways bad on block, but hopefully the opponent isn't confident enough to hit you with a far normal and risk cancelling.
I really don't find golden heel to be a very good move outside of combos unless you have some setup or really expect the opponent to jump. Not that it's terrible or anything but it's no crack shot.
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Yeah, i've thought of that first statement aswell, that golden heel is safe. The D version is just barely negative on block, but as far as spacing i think the only thing you can do to compensate for that is space so that you hit with the very edge of it so you don't land right smack next to your opponent. The B version is allways bad on block, but hopefully the opponent isn't confident enough to hit you with a far normal and risk cancelling.
I really don't find golden heel to be a very good move outside of combos unless you have some setup or really expect the opponent to jump. Not that it's terrible or anything but it's no crack shot.
I'd agree with you save for the fact that I've had people spam it at me and it works surprisingly well as a Crack Shot for anti-airing purposes. The light and heavy versions have different trajectories so its good to mix them up. And if you do hit them in the air then you can land a solid follow-up to juggle, anywhere on the screen (corner turns into rape, of course). The EX version is a great way to get in and acts as a jump-in as well since Joe is positive enough on hit to continue comboing. Can also be used for frame traps since it doesn't combo off of normals. I have yet to delve deeper with this move overall though, been primarily mastering the slash kick so far.
But like you said, it, like the slash kick, is very dependent on spacing. If you space them right then they are excellent moves (the slash kick especially is one of the safest negative on block moves in the game if spaced right) but if you space them wrong then you might eat something nasty.
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A well-spaced Golden Heel can be safe on block, but it's still fairly safe except for command throws. You can use D Golden Heel to apply pressure, but it's always best to space it and be at a distance to keep applying pressure than to forfeit pressure completely at the end of a special. NOTE: The opponent must be blocking. Df+B is special cancellable so you can do it from that.
Noticed it says the above in the wiki, that's false. Joe can't cancel his slide into anything but Bakuretsuken outside of HD.
Thanks for pointing that out. I removed that statement.
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@Diavle; Yeah, i personally use golden heel less than i should, but i stand by that it should mainly be used for reads and set ups because most of the time slash kick is both safer and tighter as a frame trap though the pay off for scoring an anti air golden heel is obviously much better.
I used to use EX golden heel every now and then, but since i play him as my first, i really don't care to spend meter on it anymore. Sure there's a chance for a good payoff, but you can be hit right out of it if you're opponent isn't scared enough to respect your authorota so to say. With that in mind, i'd probably just go for a hop or run in instead.
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Thanks for pointing that out. I removed that statement.
Thanks man.
@Diavle; Yeah, i personally use golden heel less than i should, but i stand by that it should mainly be used for reads and set ups because most of the time slash kick is both safer and tighter as a frame trap though the pay off for scoring an anti air golden heel is obviously much better.
I used to use EX golden heel every now and then, but since i play him as my first, i really don't care to spend meter on it anymore. Sure there's a chance for a good payoff, but you can be hit right out of it if you're opponent isn't scared enough to respect your authorota so to say. With that in mind, i'd probably just go for a hop or run in instead.
I agree that it shouldn't be spammed but it should still be regularly used imo. At the very least it adds variation to your pressure and covers vertical ground that the slash kick doesn't. People can jump the slash kick but the heel will catch them so it should limit their options for evasion/movement.
Probably of not much use except the occasional mixup but the B heel crosses up a crouch opponent after a single light attack, on block or hit.
As for meter, haven't used Joe on point in a serious match since we last spoke tbh. He always sits in the second or anchor positions now, the guy is just too damn good with meter and is wasted on point imo (especially if you are using him as a battery and trying to conserve meter).
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As for meter, haven't used Joe on point in a serious match since we last spoke tbh. He always sits in the second or anchor positions now, the guy is just too damn good with meter and is wasted on point imo.
Just this bit.
You can get stun with 70% drive and 0 meter. Off c.B. So it ends up doing 700 damage and both you and your opponent build loads of meter (unless you go for the restun) but that's hardly a problem unless your opponent is hwa or takuma and you get hit :(
He also loses huge amounts of pressure as his blockstrings have to be kept really short so its harder to make people 'respect your authorota'. No bars and HD anywhere on screen you can do 700+.
There's nothing that's gonna stop me changing him up from point.
The friendly challenge: post some videos of yourself playing so you can try to change my mind ;)
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As for meter, haven't used Joe on point in a serious match since we last spoke tbh. He always sits in the second or anchor positions now, the guy is just too damn good with meter and is wasted on point imo.
Just this bit.
You can get stun with 70% drive and 0 meter. Off c.B. So it ends up doing 700 damage and both you and your opponent build loads of meter (unless you go for the restun) but that's hardly a problem unless your opponent is hwa or takuma and you get hit :(
He also loses huge amounts of pressure as his blockstrings have to be kept really short so its harder to make people 'respect your authorota'. No bars and HD anywhere on screen you can do 700+.
There's nothing that's gonna stop me changing him up from point.
The friendly challenge: post some videos of yourself playing so you can try to change my mind ;)
I won't post vids because I can't (nor do I care to, whatever works for you works for you) but I will ask just one question of you:
What do you use meter and drive with him for?
Don't get fancy, just mention the exact things you use them for in a real match the most.
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I have up to 3 bars and full hd in first place.
* Without any I get buttons into either a safe jump or reset pressure - midscreen there's not really and benefit to using meter in combos other than ranbu, only HD. It doesn't take that long at all to get HD.
* With enough HD I either do a stun combo to build 2 bars and burn 1 (corner) or do an hd combo for either 0,1 or 3 bars as ex screw upper doesn't really give much damage over the non-ex one in hd. The 3 bar HD combo gives my opponent 60% drive and 1.4 meter. Which is 920 damage for vastly less gain to my opponent than a stun combo. You build HD quickly anyway.
* gcab or gccd
* The very occasional ex tiger knee or ex hurricane. There are nearly always other options that are equally as viable.
Saying that he's 'wasted' on point is fallacious, especially when your only argument is 'he's good with meter' without saying in what way or counting what you lose when your opponent has it.
I'm done arguing this point with you though, play him wherever you want. Ignore friendly challenges and be argumentative. The question should probably also have been 'what can you do without meter then?'.
I'd rather get back to pure informational posts anyway.
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I have up to 3 bars and full hd in first place.
* Without any I get buttons into either a safe jump or reset pressure - midscreen there's not really and benefit to using meter in combos other than ranbu, only HD. It doesn't take that long at all to get HD.
* With enough HD I either do a stun combo to build 2 bars and burn 1 (corner) or do an hd combo for either 0,1 or 3 bars as ex screw upper doesn't really give much damage over the non-ex one in hd. The 3 bar HD combo gives my opponent 60% drive and 1.4 meter. Which is 920 damage for vastly less gain to my opponent than a stun combo. You build HD quickly anyway.
* gcab or gccd
* The very occasional ex tiger knee or ex hurricane. There are nearly always other options that are equally as viable.
Saying that he's 'wasted' on point is fallacious, especially when your only argument is 'he's good with meter' without saying in what way or counting what you lose when your opponent has it.
I'm done arguing this point with you though, play him wherever you want. Ignore friendly challenges and be argumentative. The question should probably also have been 'what can you do without meter then?'.
I'd rather get back to pure informational posts anyway.
So mostly HD and stun? Yeah, thought as much.
But yeah, lets stop. We have different approaches to the character and that's that.
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Probably of not much use except the occasional mixup but the B heel crosses up a crouch opponent after a single light attack, on block or hit.
I think i was the first to post that in this thread actually. Not that that matters, just wanted to be a glory hog. The problem, as you probably know is that B golden heel is very negative on block and infront or behind your still right smack in there, the opponent should be able to punish it with little effort even on hit.
I think we do pretty much agree on golden heel though, so moving on.
I've recently realised just how good Joe's s.D is. It's got range and makes f.B hitconfirmable, dunno if there's all that much to say, but you can for example do; d.B d.B, if the opponent blocks you do s.D and get another chance at a hitconfirm and the damage will actually be even better if it hits. Kind of like Ryo's fantastic s.D, except much slower though with the huge benefit of being able to cancel much later and still combo off of it.
Joe just gets better.
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I think i was the first to post that in this thread actually. Not that that matters, just wanted to be a glory hog. The problem, as you probably know is that B golden heel is very negative on block and infront or behind your still right smack in there, the opponent should be able to punish it with little effort even on hit.
Oh, I did it by mistake. The glory is all yours though :p
But yeah, its not very useful.
I've recently realised just how good Joe's s.D is. It's got range and makes f.B hitconfirmable, dunno if there's all that much to say, but you can for example do; d.B d.B, if the opponent blocks you do s.D and get another chance at a hitconfirm and the damage will actually be even better if it hits. Kind of like Ryo's fantastic s.D, except much slower though with the huge benefit of being able to cancel much later and still combo off of it.
Joe just gets better.
Loving his s.D as well.
Isn't d.B, d.A, s.D the better frame trap though? Crouching jabs seem to be the most positive of normals on block generally speaking in this game. Very useful and better than just going into f+B all the time.
Its also fantastic for karacanceling.
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Use both.
Different gaps ftw.
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Isn't d.B, d.A, s.D the better frame trap though? Crouching jabs seem to be the most positive of normals on block generally speaking in this game. Very useful and better than just going into f+B all the time.
Its also fantastic for karacanceling.
as finches said, if you intend from the get go to go for the frame trap, mix em up. But the thing is d.B*2 is a better hitconfirm than d.B d.A because it has better reach and it's hard to guarantee that you get all the way in there after a run in.
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I have a combo question with joe. The corner combo that consists of the bakuretsuken followed by the halfmoon kick and tiger kick. I play on pad and it's difficult for me to get the PPPP consistently out to make the juggle work even when i buffer it during the tiger kick. Is there a trick to getting the bakuretsuken out or anything, and im not sure if holding the attack button buffer trick can happen here or what. Please help
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Man, option select and situational damage is so good with Joe. Feels like the guy has a hundred and one ways to land damage.
Use both.
Different gaps ftw.
Isn't d.B, d.A, s.D the better frame trap though? Crouching jabs seem to be the most positive of normals on block generally speaking in this game. Very useful and better than just going into f+B all the time.
Its also fantastic for karacanceling.
as finches said, if you intend from the get go to go for the frame trap, mix em up. But the thing is d.B*2 is a better hitconfirm than d.B d.A because it has better reach and it's hard to guarantee that you get all the way in there after a run in.
Good point.
I have a combo question with joe. The corner combo that consists of the bakuretsuken followed by the halfmoon kick and tiger kick. I play on pad and it's difficult for me to get the PPPP consistently out to make the juggle work even when i buffer it during the tiger kick. Is there a trick to getting the bakuretsuken out or anything, and im not sure if holding the attack button buffer trick can happen here or what. Please help
I do it on pad too, the buffer trick does work but most importantly you should be keeping count of your button presses.
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So I'm confused.
Can Joe follow up his slide with other specials/EX specials other than Bakuretsuken?
I see in this combo, he does EX Hurricane Upper after the slide (at 9:30)
KoF XIII : 常識的に考えて Community Combo Movie (4) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKH8Nb_KnJc#ws)
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You can cancel it into anything in HD mode.
My 3 bar HD combo I posted with the hurricane in it is more damaging than the 3 bar combo in that video too. I think doing it as 2 bars (do up to the hurricane, instead of super cancelling it into screw upper you like a dp.b and max cancel that, and there is a meterless version too drive cancelling this dp into d golden heel).
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Hilarious Joe corner combo.
First you space yourself from your opponent by doing, for example, c.b c.b s.a
then you fish for a counterhit s.CD
s.CD hcf.a hcf.a hcf.a hcf.b baku baku j.D
where the bakus at the end are the standard where the first is just finisher then the second juggles then is finisher.
Oh, it does 450+ damage. For 0 cost.
I've been working on this for a couple of weeks then saw it in this video: http://youtu.be/aeyrtbXUMxw (http://youtu.be/aeyrtbXUMxw) :(
Still, so long as people see I do not care who shows the world first!
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Ah, very similar to a mai corner combo we where discussing some time back. Very good, i like joe's C+D so i guess i should spend some time to try and get a feel for this. I haven't managed to get more than two hcf.A's after a counter-hit C+D yet, but it seems to be both spacing and timing dependant so i've probably just been a bit off.
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Use the spacing I suggested and you'll get it - three lights.
The key is to stick the CD out before you've finished sliding back so that it actually connects. Then the 3 hurricane uppers are pretty much guaranteed.
At the point of the the last hit of the heel off the drive cancel your opponent has less than the 83 stun that a full stun combo from that point on does. Iirc they have about 60 so you will need another drive to do the job and they should drop to stun at the baku after the dp. This is rough but about right (assuming they have full stun points at the point of hit).
I'm going to make a new, more advanced, Joe video to go with my basics one soon. It'll have 50% guard strings, safe jumps and option selects in it. As well as some pretty cool, situational, combos like this one - which is why its not in the basics. Expect that in the next few weeks!
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I've tested the C+D projectile thing and it is quite easy to use, by only using two projectiles it makes the combo possible from different ranges so this is going right into my repertoire.
By the way, i recently tested out the qcb.B crossup again and found that it is actually a better mixup than i used to think. qcb.B is barely negative on crouch block, and seems to actually be neutral on crouch hit wich is what you will get if it crosses up. After crossing up, Joe is in a so so situation because his normals feel a tiny bit slower than some other characters, but it's basically like using a well spaced slash kick on block.
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i jus picked joe and my god iz he real fun 2 use but i feel he has more trouble 2 get inside unlike hwa and im not good with his projectiles any tips on getting inside
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He can get in easier than Hwa actually... His space control is also way better than Hwa... His FBs are very good and setup a lot of frame traps... You have play around with them to get used to using them...
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at this point im used 2 hwa hopping forward on his CD but i have noticed that joe has a faster walkin speed... a huge difference 2 me also i find it hard 2 connect ;fd ;b into A hurricane upper
im assuming u mean his thrust kick when controlling space and is hurricane upper
ummm whats FB lol
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f.B hcf.A only combos when you are really close to the opponent. Joe's j/h.CD is great, i use it alot to just take up space.
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i swear im startin 2 hate these hcf hcb motions its killin me
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FB = fireball... Ya Joe's slash kick is plus on block at max range... His mash punches are also plus on block... So controlling space with FBs and slash kicks and qcb+D is key... His j.C+D is the same as Hwa's...
Also a spaced s.C+D, hcf+B on block mid-screen is safe on block... Combos on counter hit... So you can do s.C+D, hcf+B, hcf+B, DC, EX DM for 500 damage... Near the corner you can turn this into possible stun combos...
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Takuma's j.C+D is supposedly 1 frame faster than mr.Karate's. Joe's normals are generally slower than Hwa's so i assume that it could be the case for j.C+D aswell. Oddly enough, Hwa's sweep has superior startup, reach and recovery to Joe's wich shows that a move that looks the same can be very different.
Combos off of s.C+D with Joe is sweet, i haven't tried anything out midscreen so i might try yours.
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KOF XIII - Joe Corner to Corner 2 Bar HD Combo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyzEXoIT3QI#ws)
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This should be of great help with Joe stun combos.
KOF XIII - Joe stun combo starters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iITs1-v2WbM#ws)
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Mastaroth: my joe 3 bar corner to corner HD (check my video up there ^) does more when you turn it into a 2 bar one. I've mentioned also the 2 bar variation (instead of hurricane upper xx screw upper you do hurricane upper, dp xx neomax).
Doesn't look as slick but gets more bang for your buck.
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Any beginner Joe tips? I have been playing this game since console release (go to a decent amount of local tournies) so I am not a new player picking him up. I have been told use his st A, cr B, st A, f+B string for my confirms but also told mix it up a lot with Joe like cr B, cr B, st A, f+B or cr. A, st. D, f+b etc.... any other things to note?
Not that I should be practicing this right now anyways but I am working on his corner stun combo after his basic hcf+BD setup. I can get to the first drive cancel into crescent kick but then when I do his rapid punches -> finisher then go for the DP+B it always whiffs, the character is high enough it just doesn't connect. I figure it has something to do with his rapid punches but I can't quite figure it out.
Do you guys double tap or triple tap the punches or just try to do them really quickly?
Thanks for the general tips guys... also I play Joe on point, Joe/Shen/Flame. Had been playing Ralf/Claw/Beni up to this point.
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...stuff..
Use bakuretsuken in blockstring, f.b should only be cancelled into on hit - doing it on block is terrible because whatever you do after it is either punishable or not a true blockstring and doing nothing is death.
Also see
[KoF13] Joe Higashi - Practical tips (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af7ku4UMdOY#ws)
Then go find some nishinippori and watch haregoro. If anyone says he's not currently the best Joe in the world they're pretty crazy, like certifiably so.
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I forget the video but it pointed out that st.A cr.B st.A xx fireball is a much better blockstring than anything into f.B xx fireball for similar reason. In theory f.B is pretty bad - punishable on block, really easy to see coming & guard roll, etc. Many players don't know this and don't punish accordingly, but it's good to know it's not a strong option. By canceling the jab into fireball you are much safer against guard rolls and such. Not to say you can't ever use f.B in pressure but just know that if every string ends in f.B fireball a good player is gonna adapt to that.
I'm finding cr.B into st.D a better frame trap than using cr.A simply because the range of better on cr.B.
first drive cancel into crescent kick but then when I do his rapid punches -> finisher then go for the DP+B it always whiffs
Are you letting the rapid punches come out at all? It should look like crescent kick right into the uppercut (well it looks like two punches but you don't see the rapid punch come out at all). I find triple tap -> qcb+C to be easiest but I think I already told you that. :) While I press the same button three times, I think a suitable alternative is to drum A~C~A, or C~A~C then do the qcb+punch hold button buffer. Press the three punches as he's landing from the crescent kick or dp.
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I'm finding cr.B into st.D a better frame trap than using cr.A simply because the range of better on cr.B.
The more I use it the more I REALLY like 5a, 2c 3b aaaa as a frame trap, if it hits I can tack on an ex dp for good damage. Baku blockstrings are the future. Joe has too many variations on strings in pressure so really mix it up a bit.
Everything else mechanica wrote though. That.
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I can consistently land all of the hits up to the very last one that stuns...the jump D. Im about 60/40 with it landing. Can someone explain the timing to land that every time. Its seems like if i juggle them too high they lose their juggle state by the time the jump D would connect, and if you juggle too low they obviously just fall out of the combo.
what kind of visual cues are you guys using to judge when to use the qcb.p to launch the opponent and connect the j.D?
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I just go by height and timing to determine when to do the last qcb.P. If used to early you launch high and may have to use j.D a bit later on so the opponent falls into it if it will even hit at all. If used too late you may make it easier to connect j.D by doing a hop instead of a full jump. Alternately if you don't find a timing comfortable to you, try getting the third hit of the rapid punch juggle before the launching uppercut, that makes it easy to connect a full jump D.
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I just learnt the timing and don't do it the harrygogo way.
The second bakuretsuken where it's extended and they pop up off the first hit, you can time it so that instead of another hit of bakuretsuken and then the finisher you just get the two hits of the finisher. This does more damage. You have to pretty much press D as soon as you leave the ground though to get it to connect but I've never had them go into the no juggle state doing it that way.
If you can make a video of how you're doing it maybe we can tell you a point in which you could get them lower.
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thanks for the replies
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Is there a standard follow-up after the stun?
I finish the combo with about15% drive and about 1 3/4 bar. For now i am just doing a jump in, EX punches, qcb. hp, dp.lk, then the same juggle punch finisher i use in the stun combo. It doesnt yield as much damage as i would like. (650ish)
Does anyone know anything stronger for 15% drive and 1 3/4 bar?
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j.d 5d 3b ex.baku, 41236b, 214b, 623b, Baku finish, Baku+finish
This is probably the best you're gonna get for 1 bar without the drive to carry it on. There is a re-stun though.
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Hey crew,
Me again. A more complicated question this time. High low mixups with Joe.
Ive got the spacings down and i can bait jumps with his fireball, but once i put them in the corner I dont really see him having an effective high-low mixup
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Joe's d.B is key, he really doesn't have much of a high low game, but most players will stand up to move at some point and that's when you need to kick at their feet. You can be creative with d.B*2 run in d.B*2/throw and hop/empty hop/double hop mixups etc and aslong as you mix that up with traps (golden heel/slash kick/hurricane upper/various normals) that can be really successful. You don't specifically need to connect d.B's or j.D's to get good damage with joe though, he is capable of getting good damage out of many different options instead of just a couple of really strong ones. Mixup is key.
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thanks for the reply
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Hey gentlemen, posted something in the wiki thread. Not a Joe player, but was testing something. His Bakuretsuken, the perfect Px4 version, gives you +5F on hit. So you can link any normal or special 5F or faster. Tested it out to make sure it was +5, but yeah, it's a pretty good thing to know as it's a safe avenue as a blockstring and doing significant damage for little bar.
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This is kinda already known. I think everyone that uses it knows that both close c and stand a are 1 frame links off of it.
Glad it's been put somewhere more prevalent though, thanks.
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Alrighty, thanks for letting me know.
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worth noting is that while bakuretsuken does give good frame advantage and chip on block, it generally reduces damage of whatever you follow up with more than if you just did a standard light string for example, it becomes more and more noticeable the longer you extend your combo. I don't really use it anymore, i tried it and i just feel that it makes things needlessly complicated and doesn't give me anything i really want most of the time. I think Joe players should look into it though and see if they do like using it.
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Hey,
I'm practicing the midscreen HD setup (so whatever into F+B, (HD), C, DF+B (delay), B Slash Kick...).
I'm having trouble with the slide into slash kick. Is there any sort of visual or audio cue that you use to help time it?
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if i remember correctly you dont have 2 delay the slash kick
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KOF XIII - Joe: EX Tiger Kick Reversal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jwgkLlkLnA#)
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if i remember correctly you dont have 2 delay the slash kick
Nah it is needed because if you do it too early, you'll end up crossundering and then when you go for the B Tiger Kick, you'll actually get a Golden Heel.
I've found my problem though, the Slash Kick xx Tiger Knee xx Golden Heel xx rest of combo needs to be HD cancels. The problem is that the time frame is small, so I'm just button holding everything to fix that.
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if i remember correctly you dont have 2 delay the slash kick
Nah it is needed because if you do it too early, you'll end up crossundering and then when you go for the B Tiger Kick, you'll actually get a Golden Heel.
I've found my problem though, the Slash Kick xx Tiger Knee xx Golden Heel xx rest of combo needs to be HD cancels. The problem is that the time frame is small, so I'm just button holding everything to fix that.
sorry i miss red it.... y not use ;dn ;db ;bk ;d before the slide so the combo would start off (HD activated) ;c ;df ;b D golden heel B slash kick B tiger knee
thats easyer 4 me mid screen
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if i remember correctly you dont have 2 delay the slash kick
Nah it is needed because if you do it too early, you'll end up crossundering and then when you go for the B Tiger Kick, you'll actually get a Golden Heel.
I've found my problem though, the Slash Kick xx Tiger Knee xx Golden Heel xx rest of combo needs to be HD cancels. The problem is that the time frame is small, so I'm just button holding everything to fix that.
sorry i miss red it.... y not use ;dn ;db ;bk ;d before the slide so the combo would start off (HD activated) ;c ;df ;b D golden heel B slash kick B tiger knee
thats easyer 4 me mid screen
I tried it your way, but I can't get it. No big though, I found one I like just gotta practice now.
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do anybody know a better way to mash his tnt punches (dont know if thats the correct name)
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...stuff...
How much is your midscreen HD combo getting you?
If its not more than mine why not use mine?
The key is to do the slash kick as late as you can off slide. The only way I found to consistently get it is to tk the slash kick (I find if I don't then I don't get all the inputs because I'm getting too old now).
@bigvador - how are you doing it now?
I always double double tap. Drumming it out with my middle and index fingers.
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Stun combo compilation:
KoF XIII : Joe Higashi Stun combo compilation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-ZRsYobAIU#)
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Glad to see ImbuedGold is back.
That's got some nice stuff in it, shame it misses out on an important category of 0 power X% drive stun combos (e.g. 5d baku, 5c 6b 41236b, baku finish dc usual and 2b 5a baku, 5a 6b 41236b, baku finisher dc usual). Will at least give me an hour worth of fun cranking them out in training!
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...stuff...
How much is your midscreen HD combo getting you?
If its not more than mine why not use mine?
The key is to do the slash kick as late as you can off slide. The only way I found to consistently get it is to tk the slash kick (I find if I don't then I don't get all the inputs because I'm getting too old now).
@bigvador - how are you doing it now?
I always double double tap. Drumming it out with my middle and index fingers.
found a way to mash it out... kinda hurting my hand tho now i just gotta get down the timing of everything
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The second combo with the NeoMAX is my favorite, even if it doesn't KO.
KOF XIII Joe Higashi Doble stun Combo/Stun Combo+Neo Max (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFP-w79oENw#ws)
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KOF XIII Joe is retarded...(1000 + dmg double stun combo) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfu3zuHaijs#ws)
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Hi all,
I have a question that I have been trying to figure out an answer to for a while. I noticed it appearing in the video that raisedbyflinches created dealing with bakuretsuken blockstrings. The question is about blockstrings similar to the one done at 1:40 of this video:
(I tried linking the time, but the embedded video didn't take it :()
[KoF13] Joe Higashi - Practical tips (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af7ku4UMdOY#ws)
j. ;c -> st. ;c -> ;df ;b -> bakuretsuken. Another example of a variations I've seen haregoro do is st. ;a -> ;df ;b -> bakuretsuken. Whenever I try to do a blockstring involving any punch attacks into slide into bakuretsuken, it results in extra bakuretsuken punches coming out, making the blockstring not as good.
In my testing if you do ;a/ ;c -> ;df ;b -> ;a ;a ;a (3 punches), no mash punches comes out. If you do ;a/ ;c -> ;df ;b -> ;a ;a ;a ;a (4 punches) then extra punches come out. I'm wondering what the inputs are for doing this. Does anyone have any info?
Thanks!
EDIT: Talked to the creator of the video and we figured out how to do this. No numbers or anything, but what determines geting the minimum number of punches out of the bakuretsuken in this situation or not depends on how quickly you input the punches after the slide. If you input four punches immediately after the slide is input, only the minimum amount of punches should comes out. If you do it slowly, it'll for some reason count your punches before the slide as additional punches and will elongate the bakuretsuken.
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I've tried doing this before and failed but i've now succeeded in linking together j.C s.D f.B hcf.A s.A f.B hcf.B 3*P-qcb.P 3+*P(2 hits juggle)-qcb.P j.D for 466 meterless damage. Yo toptiers!
You could go into stun combo this way and it might just require one drive for stun so i'll look into that. It might unlock an actually useable although unlikely kill combo for joe as he might actually have the drive to go for double stun.
*Turns out that i was mightily optimistic. It gets nowhere near to being able to stun with just one drive but the damage is still massive.