Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => Character Discussion => Hwa Jai => Topic started by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 05:19:20 AM
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(http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af171/dreamcancel/kofxiii/hwajai.gif)
Notation
;a = Light Punch
;b = Light Kick
;c = Strong Punch
;d = Strong Kick
* = EX version possible
Throws
Sou Hiza Jigoku - ;bk/ ;fd+ ;c/ ;d
Command NormaLs
Step Kick with Slide - ;df+ ;b
Special Moves
TNT Punch - ;qcf + ;a / ;c *
∟ ;qcf + ;a / ;c (Finishing Blow)
Dragon Tail - ;qcb + ;b / ;d (ground or air) *
Dragon Kick - ;dp + ;b / ;d (ground or air) *
Desperation Moves
Drink Pink - ;qcb ;qcb + ;a / ;c
Dragon Dance - ;qcf ;qcf + ;b / ;d *
Dragon Backbreaker - ;qcf ;hcb + ;a / ;c
Neomax
Final Dragon Kick - ;qcf ;hcb ;b ;d
Hwa Jai's Wiki entry (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hwa_Jai_(XIII)).
Console changes:
- All frames on Drink super have been changed (apparently, its recovery is faster)
* Ground CD has changed. Moves forward and has invincibility to low attacks
* Fierce Dragon Tail has faster recovery; can be connected to a normal move after it hits
* Weak Dragon Backbreaker is now a 1F throw instead of a leaping throw
- Weak Dragon Tail comes out faster and connects from a fierce
- EX Air Dragon Kick now hits 3 times like its ground version and does 154 damage.
- EX Dragon Tail chips less guard meter
Producer Yamamoto says: Hwa has a lot of changes, like for example, his Weak Backbreaker is a 1F hit now. The recovery on his drink is different so it might be usable in a combo.
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Reserved
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Reserved
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Does hwa have any combos where he combos into the drink and can keep going with normals, special moves, super or anything?
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Does hwa have any combos where he combos into the drink and can keep going with normals, special moves, super or anything?
Basically, if you super cancel into Drink Right after an EX TNT Punch, that's the most potential to combo you're going to get.
EX TNT seems like it's impossible to hit juggled opponents with. The best way to land it (for me) Is ;dn ;b , ;dn ;a , stand ;b , ;df ;b , EX TNT.
Drink cancelling is only effective in corner, otherwise, you seem to be too far away. Mostly, for me, I'd rather knock them far away (like with his CD), plug in a drink while they're recovering, and then fish for Drink-buffed Dragon BackBREAKA setups. After the Drink, Dragon BackBREAKA is like a mini-neomax, and all the hits you do leading up to the BREAKA are buffed by the drinking as well.
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Does hwa have any combos where he combos into the drink and can keep going with normals, special moves, super or anything?
Basically, if you super cancel into Drink Right after an EX TNT Punch, that's the most potential to combo you're going to get.
EX TNT seems like it's impossible to hit juggled opponents with. The best way to land it (for me) Is ;dn ;b , ;dn ;a , stand ;b , ;df ;b , EX TNT.
i thought u couldnt do anything after the ex tnt........... well i dont use it any way it almost seems like a waste of a move just using A TNT can only give u more juggle but i dont know
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i thought u couldnt do anything after the ex tnt........... well i dont use it any way it almost seems like a waste of a move just using A TNT can only give u more juggle but i dont know
Well, to me, that's the thing. ;a and ;c TNT+ Followup is hard to land at midscreen, especially if you're itchy on when to do it. The ;a followup only combos well if you make sure to start that TNT at the end of his ;df ;b slide, once Hwa has let his momentum get closer to the opponenet. And the punches push back, which make the followup even more annoying to use.
However, the EX TNT had an auto-advance with it, that make the full thing land anywhere; it dashes in and kinda locks / draws them into the hits. This also means you should be able to use it off pokes, such as with crouching ;c, or stand ;b.
It gives a launch that give you a free juggle oppurtunity, and with his Dragon Dance, you can get a DM or EX DM off (Normals, command slide, EX TNT) anywhere on the screen.
Another note, If you're poking at a further away enemey who'se in the corner, the EX TNT will help you get into position for those ;b Dragon Kick (DC), ;c Dragon Tail Loops. You could even toss in an extra ;a TNT after the EX, to make it a bit easier.
The only thing I personally really like for Normal TNT is that it can be super cancelled into Dragon BackBREAKA, which can then be MC'd into FINAL DRAGON KIAAAKAKAKAKAK, or however he says it. It's his nice short SC -> MC combo, since there's no time for Final Dragon Kick to land in Dragon Dance...
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hmmmm looks like imma have to go in the lab with the TNT do u know the start up frames for ;df ;b
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Has anyone besides me had trouble canceling into EX Dragon Tail after ;df ;b? Any tips to help avoid accidental NeoMax use?
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Hwa jai combo once he's drunk he becomes very strong.
kof 13 hwai jai 100% combo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX9HopFmoMY#ws)
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KOFXIII Hwa Jai Combo Tutorial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=820DVTcxIJQ#)
Combo Tutorial by Xenophobian
Do someone have the combo transcription?
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Ok so Hwa A Back Breacker probably is only 1f after the flash cause you can't punish Duo's Rekka -> Weak teleport with it. It probably has some start-up.
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hwa seems nice enough, combo into drink and combo. near corner only, 2 and 3 bars and full drive.
jump ;c air ;dn ;db ;bk ;b standing ;c ;df ;b, ;dn ;df ;fd ;a ;c (sc) ;dn ;db ;bk ;dn ;db ;bk ;c, ;fd ;dn ;df ;b (dc) ;dn ;db ;bk ;d, ;dn ;db ;bk ;d, ;dn ;db ;bk ;d, ;dn ;db ;bk ;b, ;dn ;db ;bk ;b, ;dn ;df ;fd ;a, ;dn ;df ;fd ;a, now for the 1 bar finisfer do instant air ;fd ;dn ;df ;b ;d and 2 follow ups in the direction you wanna fly. 597 damage and you remain drunk for an additional 5 or so seconds (might land dragon back breaka for that hardd extra damage after the combo when still drunk).
for an extra dm bar you could also finish the combo with an ex dm instead of ex dp for bout 750 damage or something along those lines. i couldn't get the normal ;dn ;df ;fd ;dn ;df ;fd ;b or ;d or ground ex dp to connect for the combo that used 1 dm bar less. you gain a bar and 1/4 with the combo so that's a nice bonus.
edit: what are people opinions bout hwa? his drinking makes him really good but comboing into it is more for show than anything else cause he can do that same damage more easily without wasting that much bar without going drunk. i think it it was cheaper to combo in to drinking and combo on wouldhave made him too op, now its fun to use but really not neccesarry.
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hwa seems nice enough, combo into drink and combo. near corner only, 2 and 3 bars and full drive.
jump ;c air ;dn ;db ;bk ;b standing ;c ;df ;b, ;dn ;df ;fd ;a ;c (sc) ;dn ;db ;bk ;dn ;db ;bk ;c, ;fd ;dn ;df ;b (dc) ;dn ;db ;bk ;d, ;dn ;db ;bk ;d, ;dn ;db ;bk ;d, ;dn ;db ;bk ;b, ;dn ;db ;bk ;b, ;dn ;df ;fd ;a, ;dn ;df ;fd ;a, now for the 1 bar finisfer do instant air ;fd ;dn ;df ;b ;d and 2 follow ups in the direction you wanna fly. 597 damage and you remain drunk for an additional 5 or so seconds (might land dragon back breaka for that hardd extra damage after the combo when still drunk).
for an extra dm bar you could also finish the combo with an ex dm instead of ex dp for bout 750 damage or something along those lines. i couldn't get the normal ;dn ;df ;fd ;dn ;df ;fd ;b or ;d or ground ex dp to connect for the combo that used 1 dm bar less. you gain a bar and 1/4 with the combo so that's a nice bonus.
edit: what are people opinions bout hwa? his drinking makes him really good but comboing into it is more for show than anything else cause he can do that same damage more easily without wasting that much bar without going drunk. i think it it was cheaper to combo in to drinking and combo on wouldhave made him too op, now its fun to use but really not neccesarry.
I do not combo into drinking, like you said it is more for show, but I use the drink on his own as soon as I can because it makes Hwa jai a lot stronger, you get a psycological advantage, your opponent will be scared knowing that a basic combo could turn into a 600++ damage.
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Found something crazy, but not too practical imo... Anyway, if you manage to knock the opponent down in the corner with air dp+B, and they do not techroll, you can pick them back up in with an EX Dragon Kick.
The thing with this, in order to catch them, you have to do the Dragon Kick fast. I used the tiger knee method. All three directions will hit. From the ;df I went ;fd then ;uf . This can be done in both regular and HD mode. I came across this messing around trying to find different ways to HD combo with air dp+B. Again, there's probably no real use for this, but maybe something can come outta this...
I'm not sure if anyone asked this, but has anyone found ways to combo using the EX HD Bypass method? I'm just testing stuff out to see what's possible, seeing what can combo into EX TNT Punch. I'm just doing a s.C, df+B. qcf+ABC and seeing what I can/can't do from there. I'm trying other methods of comboing, but for the most part it seems like everyone's just EX TNT Punching into Drunk Mode, and comboing from there.
Well I guess I should really be asking if anyone has found something useful from going straight into HD from EX TNT Punch, then straight into Drunk Mode and comboing afterwards??? I hope this doesn't sound confusing...
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Is there any good hwa matchplay footage out there?
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Hi guys, I'm new to Dream Cancel.
From the 'strategy' section onwards this is written by me: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/The_King_of_Fighters_XIII/Hwa_Jai#Basic_Strategy (http://wiki.shoryuken.com/The_King_of_Fighters_XIII/Hwa_Jai#Basic_Strategy)
It still needs a lot of work, so that's why I'm here. With permission I'd like to include information from this thread in the SRK guide because at the moment it's severely lacking. I also plan to add this information to the Dream Cancel wiki at some point unless someone beats me to it. The problem is that when I first bought the game I played Hwa quite often, but now I've moved on to other characters who suit my style of play better and Hwa tactics have gathered dust. I only started writing the SRK guide page because there wasn't anything there before and I reckoned something was better than nothing. Still, it would be a shame not to finish what I've started so I humbly request assistance, though if someone thinks they could do better and would like to take over I'm open to that suggestion too.
So what do you think should be included? I'd like anything from basic strategy and advice on team placement to combo notations and setups for Dragon Backbreaker.
Lastly, does it read well? I'm really not sure if it fits with the writing style of the other character pages, or if that really matters.
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Hey Agito,
As long as you give proper credits to the members and site, and if you put things in your own words and interpretation, it should be okay. One reason why our Hwa wiki is a little barren is because it seems we don't have many players focusing on him to share information, so if you're willing to help us out as well here: http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1771.0 (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1771.0) that would be great.
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Just messing around with him. I saw this combo video (I think it was posted earlier in this thread) http://youtu.be/820DVTcxIJQ (http://youtu.be/820DVTcxIJQ) . I just did B SRK, Drive Cancel into B Dragon Tail, then D SRK, and D Dragon Tail. Without even going into the super that can be landed after that, that's easy 500 damage. With EX Super it's closer to 700 damage.
That shit's brutal.
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Currently I play a team of K'/Hwa/Shen. Hwa Jai's damage is out of control, especially when he's drunk. I found an HD combo with him while drunk that can KO anyone and he only needs the initial stock to drink in order to do it; the ender builds enough meter for him to land a DM and KO the opponent at the end of the combo.
That being said, I'm still struggling with him in terms of how to play. He feels awkward and I think he struggles in matches where he has to come back from being down on life, especially against good zoning characters. This is one of the reasons I won't play him anchor, that and his ability to do incredible damage without using stock. I think he is best in first or second slot, depending on the opponent's team and order. The main upside of having stock available with him outside of easier damage is having access to two good moves for getting around zoning and projectiles (EX Dragon Tail and C Dragon Backbreaker).
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What are some safe blockstrings with Hwa?
Is Slide (downtowards B) into B Dragon Tail safe? I tested it against 1 guard Jump and it seems pretty safe, I wouldn't put it past grapplers like Clark to punish it though. But I think you can fuck that up if you use Yomi with his C Grab Super.
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What are some safe blockstrings with Hwa?
Is Slide (downtowards B) into B Dragon Tail safe? I tested it against 1 guard Jump and it seems pretty safe, I wouldn't put it past grapplers like Clark to punish it though. But I think you can fuck that up if you use Yomi with his C Grab Super.
thats it and on block i believe hes -1 and if he connects then its 0 its really sad he only had 1 block string but u can do qcf A it will whiff but some people react late then u can dp and get a counter hit
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I think I discovered a shenanigan no one has talked about yet. It seems pretty good too.
(Anywhere) CD into EX SRK. With the 3 additional hits of the EX that's easy 266 damage. Not huge, and he can't DC into a Dragon Tail and follow up from there. But when it's down to the wire this could help. I think he's the only character that can combo off of CD without it being a counter hit or going into HD Mode.
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dp.BD is a so called Free juggle move, at least Takuma, Duo Lon, Yuri, Hwa, Raiden, K', Vice, have one (I might forgot some).
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^Didn't know that. Thanks!
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It's Anywhere Juggle, but yeah.
For a decent amount of characters, it can be mean...just look at Vice or Elizabeth. Takuma's is essential for his doom combos, K' Minute Spike being one helped his corner carry (as if he needed it).
It's characters like that where you just have to be careful when dealing with Air to Airs (especially Vice).
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Interesting, I forgot about his EX Dragon Kick being an absolute juggle. Very useful since s.CD is such an important move for him.
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How good is jump away D Dragon Tail? It looks like he's left pretty safe especially if done really low to the ground.
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So I wanted to put together a video, but I no longer have the means to do so. Here is the leftover transcript from the video that never was. These combos also work in the corner. Omit the jump-in starters for whatever else at the expense of less damage. They're all pretty much variations of the same combo with the enders dependent on the number of stocks available.
Tips:
After the activation, the s.D should be a (close) s.D and not a (far) s.D, otherwise the B Dragon Tail after the D Dragon Tail will whiff.
The only Dragon Tail that should hit twice is the D Dragon tail during the loop after the 2nd Dragon kick.
Only the 2 stock combo requires the full NeoMax animation.
All combos require full drive.
0 stock (20 hits/724 dmg)
j.C > qcb+B > (far) s.C > HD > (close) s.D > dp+D > (HDC) qcb+B > dp+B > (HDC) qcb+D > qcb+D > qcb+B > dp+B > (HDC) qcb+D > qcb+D > dp+D > (HDC) qcb+B > qcb+B > dp+B
1 stock (34 hits/842 dmg)
j.C > qcb+B > (far) s.C > HD > (close) s.D > dp+D > (HDC) qcb+B > dp+B > (HDC) qcb+D > qcb+D > qcb+B > dp+B > (HDC) qcb+D > qcb+D > dp+D > (HDC) qcb+B > qcb+B > qcfx2+B/D
2 stock (19 hits/922 dmg)
j.C > qcb+B > (far) s.C > HD > (close) s.D > dp+D > (HDC) qcb+B > dp+B > (HDC) qcb+D > qcb+D > qcb+B > dp+B > (HDC) qcb+D > qcb+D > dp+D > (HDC) qcb+B > qcf,hcb+BD
3 stock (39 hits/965 dmg)
j.C > qcb+B > (far) s.C > HD > (close) s.D > dp+D > (HDC) qcb+B > dp+B > (HDC) qcb+D > qcb+D > qcb+B > dp+B > (HDC) qcb+D > qcb+D > qcf,hcb+BD > qcfx2+B/D
4 stock (41 hits/1007 dmg)
j.C > qcb+B > (far) s.C > HD > (close) s.D > dp+D > (HDC) qcb+B > dp+B > (HDC) qcb+D > qcb+D > qcb+B > dp+B > (HDC) qcb+D > qcb+D > qcf,hcb+BD > qcfx2+BD
These combos are most likely unoptimized. Granted, you won't always get the jump-in starter for maximum damage, these combos showcase the basics of midscreen to corner Drive Canceling in HD mode with Hwa Jai.
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This might be old news but I've found a 1k damage drunk combo that requires just 70% drive and 1 stock (to start).
get drunk:
j.C, j.qcb+B, c.C, d/f+B, dp+D [DC] j.qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+B, qcb+B, qcb+B, dp+B [DC] j.qcb+D, (wait) qcb+D, qcb+B, qcb+B, qcb+B, dp+B (stun), qcbx2+A/C, j.C, j.qcb+B, c.C, d/f+B, qcf+AC, qcb+D, qcb+B, qcfx2+BD.
Not all that practical since you have to land that j.C at the start under 2 sec after drinking, but still incredible that he has such high damage off so little starting resources.
EDIT: Note that Hwa has to be at least your 2nd character for this combo.
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Yeah, his drunk juggles are insane. The damage is huge and they go on forever, and they build a ton of meter. His HD while drunk kills people without any additional meter.
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Is his CD really invuln to lows? I thought I tested it and found it not to be. It seems like his footsies would be way too good if this was true. Can someone double check if so? The move is dirty as hell as it is. I stand just outside sweep range all the time and it fucks people's days up. Now I hear you can combo off it too? If this is all true then this character is crazy good in this build I think.
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It is low invuln, but not against all lows. Works against all the cr.Bs I have seen, and many cr.Ds, but it doesn't have this invuln in the first few frames, so meaties will beat it.
You can combo anywhere off a counterhit CD by cancelling into dp+D if you're drunk. If it's a regular hit, you can cancel into dp+BD anywhere and combo. In the corner you can link it instead of cancelling. Off counterhit j.CD you can link dp+D in the corner while sober, or anywhere if drunk. dp+BD can link after j.CD on regular hit anywhere.
Basically his dp+BD travels almost fullscreen very quickly and has ultimate juggle property.
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A riskier but more powerful option off of a CH CD is qcb+D. Especially if you're drunk, that leads to huuuuuuuuge juggles.
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as far as I know that just works in the corner, right? Because qcb+D gives Hwa advantage on block, so it's not risky at all.
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How good is jump away D Dragon Tail? It looks like he's left pretty safe especially if done really low to the ground.
Its decent move i use to keep people from coming in. I'm not sure about the safe part but on the corner it works great since you can combo ;dn ;db ;bk ;ub ;d. Maybe it can be useful off a reset but I'm not too sure if it would be worth it. This does need to be tested imo
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I couldn't remember if CH CD into D Dragon Tail was corner only or not. It's a bit riskier against characters with good reversals because they can just hit you out of the D Dragon Tail before it connects, since CD into D Dragon Tail is not a true blockstring. On a cornered opponent, D Dragon Tail is definitely safer on block, not sure how much advantage you actually get, though. Doesn't matter too much since CD by itself is pretty safe.
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pretty sure it's around +6 on block, not positive on that, but you can link his stand C from it while keeping a true blockstring, and it feels like maybe a 3f link. Might be 4 or more, doubt it's 1 or 2.
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D Dragon Kick being invincible during drunk state is ridiculous. Free full screen juggles into potential stun off of a reversal? Sign me up.
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^ Serious? Good to know.
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Yup. It's slow, so it's easy to safe jump, meaning don't use it on wake up, but in open play, if someone does something easily seen, you can blow through it with D Dragon Kick, cancel to air B Dragon Tail, land and start B Dragon Tail loops to send them to the corner. Naturally, this builds a ton of meter. Three B Dragon Tails into A version of TNT Punch, then you have enough bar for a Dragon Dance. If you have another 50% Drive, do B Dragon Kick instead and cancel to air D Dragon Tail, then start a big corner loop. I've been able to get early D Dragon Tail, followed by another D Dragon Tail, into three B Dragon Tails, into A TNT Punch, then ender of choice. Depending on how you started the combo, doing B Dragon Kick or a simple close C will stun the other guy. I like the idea of doing close C to reset and then going for a stun, since that way I get to keep almost all of the meter I just build up (nearly 2 and a half stocks!) and kill the other character too.
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I don't know if people noticed this with Hwa but you can cross up with Air B Dragon kick. It's really a good tool to use if you know your opponent is gonna tech (which happens most of the time). So far here is some combos I got off the cross up Air B Dragon kick:
0stock 1 drive
j.dp+B> DC > j.qcb+B > f.D (3 hits/203 damage)
1 stock 1 drive
j.dp+B, DC j.qcb+B, qcfx2+B/D (17 hits/328 damage)
j.dp+B, DC j.qcb+B, CD > EX Dragon Kick (6 hits/ 328 damage)
2 stock 1 drive
j.dp+B> DC > j.qcb+B >qcfx2+BD (19 hits/410 damage)
this is what I got for now with crossing up with air A Dragon Kick. I know for sure if he is drunk, the damage will be even greater.
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Yup. It's slow, so it's easy to safe jump, meaning don't use it on wake up, but in open play, if someone does something easily seen, you can blow through it with D Dragon Kick, cancel to air B Dragon Tail, land and start B Dragon Tail loops to send them to the corner. Naturally, this builds a ton of meter. Three B Dragon Tails into A version of TNT Punch, then you have enough bar for a Dragon Dance. If you have another 50% Drive, do B Dragon Kick instead and cancel to air D Dragon Tail, then start a big corner loop. I've been able to get early D Dragon Tail, followed by another D Dragon Tail, into three B Dragon Tails, into A TNT Punch, then ender of choice. Depending on how you started the combo, doing B Dragon Kick or a simple close C will stun the other guy. I like the idea of doing close C to reset and then going for a stun, since that way I get to keep almost all of the meter I just build up (nearly 2 and a half stocks!) and kill the other character too.
I mainly use it to go through fireballs and then do an 850+ combo for 1 drive and 0 stock. It's quite broken.
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How do you do that 850 damage? Because if I do D SRK midscreen I can DC B Dragon Tail and can't follow up with much else except B Dragon tail until I have them in the corner, B SRK, cancel into D Dragon tail and Super.
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I have some frame data for console Hwa, but just to confirm what frames count as the end/start?
For example opponent blocks a D Dragon Tail (2 hits), using the 1-guard-jump technique I can count (60fps) 2 minus frames then on the 3rd frame Hwa can do something (block/dp etc).
Is that minus 2 frames recovery or 3 for that move? Thx. At the moment I'm assuming it's minus 2 frames since the 3rd frame he is able to do something.
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I mainly use it to go through fireballs and then do an 850+ combo for 1 drive and 0 stock. It's quite broken.
I'm seconding Cipher here, care to share? I think max I've gotten with no stock is closer to the 600s. Higher than that and you need another Drive cancel.
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I guess saying 1 drive and 0 meter might have been slightly off. Hwa CAN indeed get over 850 starting from a D shoryu at the cost of only 80% drive (still a decent amount less than an HD combo costs) and 0 meter (I don't know of any meterless HD combos that deal over 850 damage), and it's really very practical (I have done it in actual matches many times before), but not as practical as some other options.
For starting a combo with 50% drive + 1 meter Hwa can get up to 712 starting from shoryu while drunk. Still quite good. That's dp+D, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, EXDM. Works from about 4/5ths of the way to the corner. So if you have someone trying to zone you while you're about 1/2 screen away and they're nearly cornered, you can get them with 712 for very little effort.
From anywhere (even if Hwa is cornered) you can get 648 damage starting from D shoryu. This requires 50% drive and at least 1.1 meter while drunk. This is dp+D, [DC] qcb+Bx4, EXDM.
That's basically what you should most often do after D shoryu.
How do you do that 850 damage? Because if I do D SRK midscreen I can DC B Dragon Tail and can't follow up with much else except B Dragon tail until I have them in the corner, B SRK, cancel into D Dragon tail and Super.
dp+D, [DC] qcb+Bx4, dp+B, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, EXDM is 824 and you gain back 1.9 stock for the combo, works literally from anywhere. So if you started that combo with just 0.1 stock you could finish with EXDM.
dp+D, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, dp+B, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, EXDM deals 855 and builds up 2.2 stock. You build more than it even costs. This is pretty do-able in real matches actually. When you have somebody cornered, you can pressure with far D and far B into d/f+B, and if they try to do anything to get out of the corner, hit them with that D shoryu. It's got LOADS of invulnerable frames, so you can use it to go through some ridiculous stuff, like Goro's dp+D or most other reversals.
I have some frame data for console Hwa, but just to confirm what frames count as the end/start?
For example opponent blocks a D Dragon Tail (2 hits), using the 1-guard-jump technique I can count (60fps) 2 minus frames then on the 3rd frame Hwa can do something (block/dp etc).
Is that minus 2 frames recovery or 3 for that move? Thx. At the moment I'm assuming it's minus 2 frames since the 3rd frame he is able to do something.
As for this, it seems that the drunk D dragon tail is 3 hits vs standing opponents. It's quite hard to test this against the training dummy since it seems that they like to low block D dragon tail if you set them to all-guard. It only works at certain ranges, but I'm pretty sure that close C, d/f+B, qcb+D gets you 3 hits midscreen, and qcb+D will always be 3 hits in the corner if they're standing. It's tight but you can indeed do close C after qcb+D and keep them in blockstun if the dummy is set to 1 guard-jump.
And the moral is... don't put Hwa on first, keep him drunk at all times and he's probably the single scariest character in the whole game.
EDIT: To add on to this massive post, dp+D, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, dp+B, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, dp+B deals 691 and causes 96 (!!!) stun, so there's a very high chance that you'll stun your opponent during this combo, turning it into a potential death combo.
tl;dr: Just read the bolded section if you want to know how to get 855 damage from an invulnerable shoryu.
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Ok, that sounds more in line with what I'd found initially. And yes, drunk Hwa is the reason I always run him second.
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You can add qcf+A after the qcb B * 3 if you cornered the opponent (which is pretty common because you push him a lot with dp.D, qcb.B x3), gives you more meter, I think it's basically giving you one meter so you can always add the DM if you start this combo and you finish it on the corner. Drunk Hwa is god.
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If I do qcf+A after qcbx3 I can't seem to link an EXDM or dp+B after it. Is that just a meterless finisher, or is there something I'm missing?
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Did you do the TNT Punch extender?
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I don't think you can combo after the followup against launched opponents, at least as far as I've seen.
I got qcf+A to link to EXDM though, but it's very tight. I think I can get used to it, so it's adding some nice stun to his combos, and a whole 9 extra damage! Heh, Thanks for that.
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dp+D, [DC] qcb+Bx4, dp+B, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, EXDM is 824 and you gain back 1.9 stock for the combo, works literally from anywhere. So if you started that combo with just 0.1 stock you could finish with EXDM.
dp+D, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, dp+B, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, EXDM deals 855 and builds up 2.2 stock. You build more than it even costs. This is pretty do-able in real matches actually. When you have somebody cornered, you can pressure with far D and far B into d/f+B, and if they try to do anything to get out of the corner, hit them with that D shoryu. It's got LOADS of invulnerable frames, so you can use it to go through some ridiculous stuff, like Goro's dp+D or most other reversals.
Yeah, that's pretty legit. I was already doing a variation of the first combo. I can't seem to do 4 B Dragon Tails after the DC though, so I just settle for 3 including the DC. Not a huge difference in damage. The 2nd combo is legit but you might want to add a note saying it's corner only. For me I can get about 816 damage and 72 stun. Pretty massive all things considered.
I tend to get drunk (god that sounds awesome) and D SRK them everytime they jump or throw any kind of projectile. Works pretty well. I might even run Hwa 3rd and Billy 1st and Clark 2nd.
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dp+D, [DC] qcb+Bx4, dp+B, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, EXDM is 824 and you gain back 1.9 stock for the combo, works literally from anywhere. So if you started that combo with just 0.1 stock you could finish with EXDM.
dp+D, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, dp+B, [DC] qcb+D, qcb+D, qcb+Bx3, EXDM deals 855 and builds up 2.2 stock. You build more than it even costs. This is pretty do-able in real matches actually. When you have somebody cornered, you can pressure with far D and far B into d/f+B, and if they try to do anything to get out of the corner, hit them with that D shoryu. It's got LOADS of invulnerable frames, so you can use it to go through some ridiculous stuff, like Goro's dp+D or most other reversals.
Yeah, that's pretty legit. I was already doing a variation of the first combo. I can't seem to do 4 B Dragon Tails after the DC though, so I just settle for 3 including the DC. Not a huge difference in damage. The 2nd combo is legit but you might want to add a note saying it's corner only. For me I can get about 816 damage and 72 stun. Pretty massive all things considered.
I tend to get drunk (god that sounds awesome) and D SRK them everytime they jump or throw any kind of projectile. Works pretty well. I might even run Hwa 3rd and Billy 1st and Clark 2nd.
Yeah, I also run Hwa last on my team (EX Kyo or Andy, Claw Iori, then Hwa), all the meter and drive he can get helps him out, though as 2nd he certainly has enough to deal some broken damage. He's really got nothing in terms of combos if he has no drive and can't get drunk. His tools are lacking too, neither of his shoryus have invuln and he can't end his combos in knockdown or with any setup for oki. His pressure is also less safe.
Basically it seems to me that all sober Hwa is able to do is poke with his kicks and his stand or air CD and play keepaway until he has the meter he needs to get drunk. It's his only real flaw, aside from this I would call him the strongest middle or anchor character in the game.
EDIT: Note that drunk D shoryu as anti air works well, but it's extremely hard to get the DC to j.qcb+B to work every time, since various characters and heights require different timing. If you have the meter for it, you can rely on dp+D linking to EXDM as soon as you land if your dp+D hits anti air. It costs 0 drive and deals tons of damage (off the top of my head I would bet somewhere in the 400 range). It works anywhere, but it's easier to link in the corner. Also pretty sure you can do regular DM in the corner, not sure about midscreen.
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EDIT: Note that drunk D shoryu as anti air works well, but it's extremely hard to get the DC to j.qcb+B to work every time, since various characters and heights require different timing. If you have the meter for it, you can rely on dp+D linking to EXDM as soon as you land if your dp+D hits anti air. It costs 0 drive and deals tons of damage (off the top of my head I would bet somewhere in the 400 range). It works anywhere, but it's easier to link in the corner. Also pretty sure you can do regular DM in the corner, not sure about midscreen.
Yeah, I found that out against EX Kyo. It seems like if he super jumps your DC B Dragon Tail is more likely to whiff. I've only had it happen against EX Kyo though.
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I think his best bnb without being drunk and using drive is d.B, s.B, df.B, qcf,hcb+A it does around 300 and hard knockdown.
His air attack hitting the lowest is D, you can do some safe jumps after the backbreaker with the right timing and an hyperhop D on them
KoF XIII : 1st Kyoto Tournament ( 2012／01／21 ) [Part 23] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFWCHY7Uby4#ws)
KoF XIII : 1st Kyoto Tournament ( 2012／01／21 ) [Part 20] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bebKn9Nrw90#ws)
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TNT Punch gives a limited juggle state. You can connect with anything you like, as long as it's fast enough. Once they fall a certain height, they can't be juggled.
In most cases with these combos, you are better served using regular DM instead of EXDM. The damage difference is usually negligible (maybe 40 points max) and the extra bar left over would be much better saved for more drunk shenanigans or keeping a Backbreaker in your pocket.
Example:
DP+D Drive cancel air QCB+D, QCB+D, QCB+Bx3, QCF+A, DP+B Drive cancel QCB+D, QCB+D, QCB+D, QCB+Bx3, TNT Punch in the corner, ending with regular DM here will do 820, while EX DM does 862.
Now, if you save the bar, your opponent only has about 180 life left, so a single basic combo or a Backbreaker will end them. If you used the extra bar, you got 42 extra damage, but you don't have the Backbreaker option available. This limits your options somewhat, both offensively and defensively.
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Things like this make me wish I could actually play Hwa Jai. His DP feels so freaking loose it's annoying.
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His SRK is a little too easy to accidentally get out, either that or his QCFx2 Super. That's my only problem with him.
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That's pretty much my problem with him too. His inputs seem way looser than everyone else.
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TNT Punch gives a limited juggle state. You can connect with anything you like, as long as it's fast enough. Once they fall a certain height, they can't be juggled.
In most cases with these combos, you are better served using regular DM instead of EXDM. The damage difference is usually negligible (maybe 40 points max) and the extra bar left over would be much better saved for more drunk shenanigans or keeping a Backbreaker in your pocket.
Example:
DP+D Drive cancel air QCB+D, QCB+D, QCB+Bx3, QCF+A, DP+B Drive cancel QCB+D, QCB+D, QCB+D, QCB+Bx3, TNT Punch in the corner, ending with regular DM here will do 820, while EX DM does 862.
Now, if you save the bar, your opponent only has about 180 life left, so a single basic combo or a Backbreaker will end them. If you used the extra bar, you got 42 extra damage, but you don't have the Backbreaker option available. This limits your options somewhat, both offensively and defensively.
Yeah, in real matches I actually barely use the EXDM, it only comes out a couple frames faster, which there's never any real need for except for linking it after a dp+D anti air. It's almost always better to save that meter, and Hwa's damage is already disgusting without it. I just throw in the EXDM when I'm trying to go for the most damage possible, if I don't think that the DM itself will kill, but the extra 80-100 damage from the EXDM will do the trick.
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I honestly think the TNT punch is pretty worthless outside of making combo videos.
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It's his only safe block string ender actually.
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Interesting. I usually use B Dragon Tail and dare them to hit me and try to do either SRK or C Grab Super.
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B dragon tail is -1 or maybe worse. You can be grabbed after it for sure.
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The problem I have with the A TNT Punch that it doesn't really link after the B Slide unless you do it point blank.
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TNT Punch in combos adds damage, stun, and meter gain. The damage added is really low and scaling means that sometimes, your combo won't do the max damage possible, but for the extended drunk combos, the added stun and meter is good. In addition, EX TNT Punch gives you a way to combo into Dragon Dance midscreen without using any Drive, so it's kinda convenient to have sometimes.
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TNT Punch in combos adds damage, stun, and meter gain. The damage added is really low and scaling means that sometimes, your combo won't do the max damage possible, but for the extended drunk combos, the added stun and meter is good. In addition, EX TNT Punch gives you a way to combo into Dragon Dance midscreen without using any Drive, so it's kinda convenient to have sometimes.
If you're drunk you can do EX TNT punch and link to qcb+Bx3 into dragon dance, actually.
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Awesome, I probably should have thought of that.
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Oh yeah, I don't know that I've mentioned this before in this thread, but I saw on the previous page that people are having trouble with accidentally getting Hwa's qcfx2+D after d/f+B instead of dp+D, and I had this problem as well, but there are two very good solutions to this problem.
Method one (most reliable): Return the stick to neutral after d/f+B. Just completely let go of the stick or remove your thumb from the pad briefly. The cancel from d/f+B to dp+D is extremely loose, and you'll be able to connect it even if cancelled extremely late (but not too late... or your dp+D gets blocked and you eat a free combo)
Method two (easiest): hcb,f+D gives you the D shoryu, and not the DM. Do this very quickly after the d/f+B and you should get the D shoryu to come out very easily.
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To avoid the dm to comes out I hold the df position after the dp move. It works wonderfully.
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That's pretty much my problem with him too. His inputs seem way looser than everyone else.
Just keeping in the spirit of drinking like 4 bottles of wine per 60 second fight
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Who gets drunk off wine?
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mostly homeless dudes, I think
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Does anybody know how to do a 100 percent combo with hwa? Idk it seems like he did more damage the other day with his hd corner combo, i was able to get a 97 percent corner combo while drunk, but now i'm barely able to get 88 percent while drunk. Even without him drunk with maximum hits in his corner combo with his heavy dragon tail i'm still barely able to get out 83 percent damage.
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I have listed many Hwa combos in this thread, including one 1k+ damage combo http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=2019.0 (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=2019.0)
also this, which is an extension of the combo that I posted earlier (mine is shorter due to... never ever needing over 1k damage in a single combo):
KOF XIII [Hwa Combo DMG 1238] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8wovIr3w-Q#ws)
As for HD combos that deal over 1k, he has a really easy one in the corner that costs drink+2 meter. Drink, j.C, qcb+B, c.C, d/f+B [HD activate], c.C, d/f+B, dp+D HDC qcb+D, qcb+D, (dp+B HDC qcb+D, qcb+D) looped until nearly out of time and then NeoMax (make sure they're close to the ground or else the full NeoMax won't connect), it deals over 1k for sure, I don't have the exact numbers (because I never bother with HD combos on Hwa... quite pointless) but it's a really easy loop.
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Question for Matt: How do you consistently get jump D, B Dragon Tail, and downforward B Slide? Because the controls are so finnicky when landing that Slide and even then it's likely to accidentally get a Super or B SRK out as you do it. I've tried substituting the slide with cr.C or st.C with little success, if I have them in the corner it's no problem but midscreen feels totally random if I can link C to D SRK.
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d/f+C to d/f+B is the most consistant way to do it after j.D, j.qcb+B. If you use d/f+C, you won't accidentally get the shoryu. To be honest midscreen I mostly just use j.D, cr.C, d/f+B since the j.qcb+B has a fair bit of pushback on it. I only add the j.qcb+B if I know I'm really damn close to them while I'm landing.
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Yeah, only in the corner the Jumping D, Dragon Tail B into whatever will work 100% of the time.
Any interesting Grab Super setups you can think of? The one's I got:
B Sweep at just within mid-screen distance, C Grab Super.
Jumping D, B Dragon Tail, C Grab Super.
B Sweep, B Dragon Tail, C Grab Super.
That and the generic poke standing B or whatever, make them think you're going to do standing D and C Grab Super.
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Actually, a thing that most people don't know about Hwa is that his s.A hits crouchers. He can just hold forward and poke with A for a bit and use that to basically tick-throw... sort of. The C grab DM is basically just really good for taking out fireballs from certain characters, like Benimaru, for example, whose fireball will trade with almost every shoryu, but gets beaten outright by Hwa's C grab DM.
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C grab can be used as anti-hop/anti-air sometimes too. Really nasty tool if used right, though not as powerful as A grab.
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^^ Yeah, I saw that at a tourney. Guy did a jump in attack, Hwa got drunk and because of the invincibility from being drunk was able to do C Grab Super and nailed 'em.
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I'm doing okay with hwa so far because his normals are beast. but i'm still finding it hard to get in with him sometimes. I know his drunk mode is good for increased damage, but is there anything that's great about it, like does he get more invincible? because i've gotten drunk and did light dragon tails but am still able to get thrown out of them and tryin to do them air to air against like a k' CD or even a jump in light from anybody seems to fail miserably.
Also if there is a good link to a hwa video let me know. I saw a pretty good hwa bein played from some guy (not sure of his name due to asian writing) against tokido. It's on sparkster's twitch account I believe. He also has a pretty good series about how to play in general. i'm sure you can get the link if you follow him on twitter.
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I'm doing okay with hwa so far because his normals are beast. but i'm still finding it hard to get in with him sometimes. I know his drunk mode is good for increased damage, but is there anything that's great about it, like does he get more invincible? because i've gotten drunk and did light dragon tails but am still able to get thrown out of them and tryin to do them air to air against like a k' CD or even a jump in light from anybody seems to fail miserably.
Just a note (I didn't realize it either until I read it on here) when Drunk, Hwa's D SRK has almost total invincibility and will go through anything on wakeup and easily go through projectiles. If you have Drive Cancel it's a free setup to 500-900 Damage depending on how much meter you have.
Hwa's Dragon Tails are unsafe on block, if you do an air Dragon Tail I believe it's safe, or about as safe as Terry's B Crack Shoot. You could also do CD (and btw it's invincible to low attacks) and if they block it you can cancel it into Drunk Mode.
The general strategy is if you're on the ground to get drunk, use D SRK to go through their shit or if they jump. Use a combination of standing D, CD, pokes, Grab Supers, etc.
If you look through the thread you can find more than a few vids showing how BA he is.
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Indeed the D shoryu has a TON of invulnerability, and goes through anything ground or air based. It can go through fireballs, normals, even grabs and other shoryus. It's truly an amazing move. Also Hwa's qcb+D is +5 or +6 on block, meaning that you can't be punished at all if you use it during pressure, though many characters have invulnerable shoryus or other attacks that can beat it if you use it predictably.
I have done quite a lot of work on the Hwa wiki page recently, check it out here: http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hwa_Jai_%28XIII%29 (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hwa_Jai_%28XIII%29) and if you have anything to add, let me know. I'm still working on revamping the entire combo section listed there. It's somewhat... underwhelming right now, but the info on his specials and normals is there, as well as some decent combos, gameplay overview and I'll soon be adding strategies/mixups like I have with the Andy page.
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I have done quite a lot of work on the Hwa wiki page recently, check it out here: http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hwa_Jai_%28XIII%29 (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hwa_Jai_%28XIII%29) and if you have anything to add, let me know. I'm still working on revamping the entire combo section listed there. It's somewhat... underwhelming right now, but the info on his specials and normals is there, as well as some decent combos, gameplay overview and I'll soon be adding strategies/mixups like I have with the Andy page.
Thanks for the good work, what you have been writing is great.
But is there a reason why you removed the his master class video? I believe it is good reference material even though you cannot understand the commentary, plus it shows people the moves performed and what they can do. ＫＯＦⅩⅢ 練習対戦研究実況プレイ 012 ホア・ジャイ① (Hwa Jai Master Class) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LVr9j4fxVo#ws)
If you are going to add or remove anything, please post here before you do with a reason why.
Thanks.
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Sorry, I'll put it back on there. After watching it I just felt like it was too outdated and didn't actually have much useful information in it. But of course someone may find it useful.
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Thanks for your cooperation. If you find any videos (or make any of your own) that you feel is useful, feel free to share them, then add them. :)
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Good shit Matt. As you know, I dig grapplers so I'll probably add some dirty C Grab Super setups to the wiki in a while.
I believe Hwa's jumping B Dragon Tail and B SRK are safe on block, is that right? I think I found another dirty C Grab setup: Jumping crossup B SRK (has to be done really close to them) then standing D, as they land wait about a second than C Grab Super.
Also; I discovered while Drunk Hwa can combo off of A or B (crouching or standing) into D SRK... That's gonna' be scary. Especially because as you said, st.A is an overhead. For whatever reason he cannot combo off of cr.A into D SRK in regular mode. So it's another thing to keep in mind if you're doing dash in cr.B and cr.A pressure with him.
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B shoryu and B Dragon Tail are both unsafe on block. B Dragon Tail is just -1 so it can be punished with grab, but B shoryu... is fully punishable.
Stand A is not an overhead, it just hits crouching characters. It's still a normal hit. It's just interesting because most characters' stand As will whiff against crouching characters.
As for light normals into D shoryu, that's interesting. I guess his D shoryu is a fair bit faster to come out when he's drunk? That's pretty cool. I guess I never bothered to try it because all of his normals can just cancel into d/f+B into D shoryu anyways. But you could use those st.A and st.B into D shoryu setups to beat CD guard cancels if you're quick enough.
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I think he meant B Dragon Tail and B SRK off of jumps.
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^ Pretty much. It looks like they're safe. Thanks for correcting me about standing A.
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Oh yeah sorry, I should have gotten that. Yeah the aerial B SRK and qcb+B give advantage on block if timed late. I'm not sure if a close C after dp+B will keep people in blockstun the entire time, but certainly after j.qcb+B it will. I really don't use air dp+B very much, but I feel like I should since it's so damn good. I almost always jump in with j.D or j.CD.
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Yeah I don't really like using B Slide too much because it's so easy to accidentally get a B SRK or Super out while doing it in a combo.
I like doing air B Dragon Tail because it could setup some dirty C Grab Super setups.
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Good job with the Hwa wiki Matt, added everything I was going to add and then some.
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Thanks, I hope people end up reading it, because right now Hwa is still kind of a mystery to most people.
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Yeah, a lot of people just don't know what he's capable of doing in Drunk Mode. Fuck, I didn't even know until I read this thread. It disappoints me that there's still guys in tournaments not using Drunk Mode with him, even tourney players don't seem to know what's up.
Question: If you do s.CD and cancel into Drunk Mode what could they possibly punish you with? I would think Mai's NeoMax or anything super fast like that could punish you but it's difficult to test this out.
Mind if I add some Tick-Throw setups with C Grab Super to the Wiki?
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well... I just don't see C grab working as a tick throw since it has like 30+ frames of startup animation after the super flash. Maybe if it was used to beat an anticipated punish or something... but it can easily be reacted to and punished if you're not using it for its invulnerability. If you have a really interesting setup, then post it and maybe it'll be worth noting in the wiki.
And as for s.CD cancelled into drink, it'll probably work well against lots of characters, but like you said some can punish it for sure. I've done only a couple of times and I don't think I've been directly punished for it (when s.CD was max range), but I never really tested just how punishable it is. I can look into it.
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So I tested s.CD cancelled into drink on block against Shen and apparently the only move that Shen can even punish it with is his EXDM. It seems like it's actually a really viable strategy against most characters. I think I'll start abusing this technique a lot. What an easy way to get a drink in. The space it creates from max range is really insane... it pushes opponents back to over half of the screen away and there are only maybe 7-10 frames that Hwa can be punished within... and most characters can't cover that distance in that amount of time very well.
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Yeah I was messing around with it when picking Hwa back up, very few people can do crap against it (though if you actually land it on someone in the corner, they could feasibly punish after roll recovery).
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I added some crossup setups to the wiki, http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hwa_Jai_%28XIII%29#Crossup_Setups (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hwa_Jai_%28XIII%29#Crossup_Setups) but I'm sure there are more. These are just the ones that I know off the top of my head. If anyone else has any reliable ones I'd love to add them.
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So I tested s.CD cancelled into drink on block against Shen and apparently the only move that Shen can even punish it with is his EXDM. It seems like it's actually a really viable strategy against most characters. I think I'll start abusing this technique a lot. What an easy way to get a drink in. The space it creates from max range is really insane... it pushes opponents back to over half of the screen away and there are only maybe 7-10 frames that Hwa can be punished within... and most characters can't cover that distance in that amount of time very well.
Yeah, I saw MADKOF do it and started mimicking him. I've never been punished for doing it.
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Yeah, but don't get too predictable with the setup. If the opponent sees it coming, he could GCR the Blowback and...well you won't like the end result.
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That's a helluva risk to GCR a CD though.
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That's a helluva risk to GCR a CD though.
Sure, but if the Hwa isn't varying the setup, it's worth the risk. It's not like it's going to be happening all the time anyway but it helps to play it safe and not always go for the Drink after s.CD. Especially since half the fun of s.CD is D Dragon Tail afterwards.
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That's a helluva risk to GCR a CD though.
Not really, GCR cannot be punished reliably in any way, so it's really just -1 meter. But still wasteful if baited.
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Matt, I added a couple of more sections to Hwa's Strategy section in the Wiki. I figured it would help those who would want to have cliffnotes of what to do when having a certain amount of meter other than just combos of choice. Fill them in at your leisure.
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Wow, if those all get filled out I'm pretty sure it'll be the biggest page on the wiki. I'll certainly have some tips for certain matchups, but a good portion is going to stay blank for a long while, most likely.
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yeah, I expect that, but that's the point. Add them as time goes on. Unless people feel confident enough to do them all, which I heavily doubt. Just something to do on lazy days I guess.
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Saitsu, here is an example of what I was talking about by putting the match-ups section inside the strategy section: http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kyo_Kusanagi_%28XIII%29#Strategies (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Kyo_Kusanagi_%28XIII%29#Strategies)
That way it wont fill up the table of contents section, and also because I feel matchups are a form of strategy. As far as it being easier or not to edit, I believe it shouldn't be that difficult at all to edit with the characters titles being bolded. Let me know how you feel about this new organization.
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It does look cleaner and more condensed, but like i said, it could cause problems when editing the list at times.
Is there any way to like...hide the info for each character or whatever like a spoiler? So we can keep it condensed, but maintain the ability to edit each character at will?
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It shouldn't really cause any problems at all when editing as long as you place the information under the bold text. It might just take away an extra second or two from scrolling down perhaps.
I also think you are referring to collapse-able tables or sections. The wiki doesn't have that software for that in-place now but I will look into it to see if there is a way to get it.
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Well if you can, that would be preferred as I would think that's optimal. the ability to do individual edits but keep the wiki condensed. But if you can't, I'll work on switching everything to your way.
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It would probably be best to have them all switched to the more condensed view in the strategy section for now, because changing the wiki software would be something that may take some time.
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It would probably be best to have them all switched to the more condensed view in the strategy section for now, because changing the wiki software would be something that may take some time.
Alright, but do you mind if I start working on it like tomorrow or something? I kind of wanted to relax today. Tomorrow I'll be more in work mode with having to deal with my phone, getting points to get ready for Skullgirls, and I was probably going to look into Kensou matchups anyway.
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I will help you. Just gotta copy and paste from Kyo's section to the others. I'll start alphabetically from Ash's and you can take the other end when you have time.
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Alright.
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Just wanted to drop in and say good work on the wiki, that shit was way organized compared to most of the wiki sections.
Now it just needs frame data and move properties under the moves in the move list and it's golden.
Since I can't seem to find anything on it, how safe is hwa's air dp+B? I found that if you get a really high cross up, IE you're hyper hopping over their head and kind of skimming over them with a j.D, it's a nice way to convert to damage. Looks like you can hop directly over their head and do it for an ambiguous cross up too, would be nice if it actually is safe lol
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I know that for sure at any height that you can cancel into it from a normal, it's safe, but I'll check maximum height... It might be punishable by some of the tallest characters like Maxima or Goro.
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That's good news. I tested it from higher up with 1 guard jump on and it didn't seem too terribly negative... probably enough so to eat a command grab though since you'll be right in their face.
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Yeah it seems like when you use it as a crossup against a standing opponent it's punishable by grabs, I don't think close normals can punish it. Against grapplers you can use the same mixup, but I would suggest EX dp+K in the air for that crossup, since you can easily confirm with the second hit and then make yourself safe or land another hit with the third hit.
Inadvertently I've found that against tall characters you can do j.D and cancel it into dp+B on block and it'll actually hit j.D on one side and dp+B on the other, making it a ridiculously ambiguous crossup.
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Matt, great work on the wiki man... Best wiki section in DC I've seen yet... You are making me pick up Hwa after reading it... I wasn't sure before... but... Now I've seen the DRINK ...errr LIGHT... lol
p.s. we have enough frame data on other characters available to figure out Hwa's frame data... we can test this out on saturday...
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p.s. we have enough frame data on other characters available to figure out Hwa's frame data... we can test this out on saturday...
Here ya go: http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hwa_Jai_%28XIII%29#Move_Metadata (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hwa_Jai_%28XIII%29#Move_Metadata)
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^ translated
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There we go, B Air Dragon Kick +4 at best on block and B Air Dragon Tail is +7 at best on block...damn (if I read the ADT part right).
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Wow, the data on those normals is absurd. Worst is st. ;d at only -1? Everything else is either neutral or advantage? st. ;c ;d is +4? Ridiculous. This will actually change how I play Hwa.
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Well that advantage on st.CD is why st.CD xx Drink is safe.
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Okay, maybe you guys can help me out here. It seems like people have adjusted to the gdlk nature of Hwa and this is what usually happens for me:
I get drunk, and they are very content to just runaway and block. Waiting for drunk mode to wear off. I've learned that they just do not want to press a button or jump at you, so my D SRK is blocked and punished sadly. What can you do to force them to come at you? Because I typically do st.D and jump in D and B Dragon Tail. But by the time I finally get in Drunk Mode wears of.
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im having trouble dealing with hwas drinks myself. showing any agression when he drinks puts me in a world of regret. running away and blocking... my guard gauge doesnt always last lol. especially when he backs off at the end and gets another free drink as soon as it wears off. very rarely am i able to get in in time to prevent him from drinking again or punishing it if he does.
if i manage to survive getting cracked open by a drink or two... or three *sweat*, command grab DM usually gets me cuz i got used to blocking so much.
most of the time i fight hwa hes on 3rd and has a lot of stock to blow.
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Louis, it's called Dragon Backbreaker. Hit them with one Drunk one, and they'll be mindfucked enough for you to wreck them.
Another thing is to just make sure you don't get Drunk from too far away. Try to just do it off of your Blowback so at least you'll be close when you're Drunk initially.
As for defending Hwa...well look at Louis' problem. Hwa has a weird offense. When he's in on you, he's very hard to deal with, however getting and staying in is another problem
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Louis, it's called Dragon Backbreaker. Hit them with one Drunk one, and they'll be mindfucked enough for you to wreck them.
You think I don't do that? The problem with his Grab Supers is that it's hard to time them and it's a huge risk to use the C version unless they're being dumb. I guarantee you that 9 times out of 10 a guy who's running away from a Drunk Hwa is waiting for 2 things: To block and punish a D SRK and looking to jump out or AB Roll out if you get close to them.
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Well try better. But seriously, it's pretty much your only way you're gonna open them up.
It's either that, or you can do DandyJ's Hwa strategy, and just pop HD mode, and just go buckwild with D Dragon Kicks.
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Louis, it's called Dragon Backbreaker. Hit them with one Drunk one, and they'll be mindfucked enough for you to wreck them.
You think I don't do that? The problem with his Grab Supers is that it's hard to time them and it's a huge risk to use the C version unless they're being dumb. I guarantee you that 9 times out of 10 a guy who's running away from a Drunk Hwa is waiting for 2 things: To block and punish a D SRK and looking to jump out or AB Roll out if you get close to them.
what about ;dn ;db ;bk ;d i believe when ur drunk ur plus 1 on block and if u hit u can link i dont get drunk but i do know this should work for sure
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Except that while a decent pressure tool, it doesn't help with his desire to open anyone up. You do it more than once in a row against a good player, they'll just knock you out of the sky the second time in the gap between moves.
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as long as people kno the risk of using it then thats there choice but at the same time i do think that people should just combo into it even if there not in the corner. so at least they can have the opponent on the floor
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Seriously, the Dragon Backbreaker. Just try to remember that you have it. Hwa is maybe the very best character in the game for opening up turtles if you get used to this. It's also one of the reasons he's not easy to play, because you have to play a rushdown character AND a grappler at the same time.
All of Hwa's pokes (aside from st.D) give him advantage on block and lead to big damage if they connect... So people naturally want to turtle if he's drunk and they know that he can easily take off 700+ of their life with one random hit. Since st.A cannot be crouched, gives advantage on block and is cancellable into itself or into d/f+B it lets you pressure extremely well, and you can mix it up into the grab DM for 340 damage.
Think of it like this; if you drink and people start to turtle, then you're controlling the match. It means they're scared. You'll build up more than 2 meters during the pressure you put on while you're drunk for 15 seconds (so long as you're not spending additional meter), meaning you're losing nothing. The drink sets you up for ideal conditions to land a grab.
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Hwa Jai is such a bastard. Picked him up a couple weeks ago and never looking back. He is an amazing middle character. I'm still getting used to the whole grappling aspect of him, I really need to master that, but the combo damage is just absolutely ludicrous. After watching all the stun combos on the wiki, I messed around found you can get a stun combo off a counterhit CD from midscreen as long as you're drunk. While this is probably real match impractical, it's still nuts.
One thing I'm kind of confused about though is some of his aerial tools. I was reading through the backlog here and it seems that air dragon kick (b version) crosses up sometimes? that seems amazing. I'm confused as to weather the aerial version of dragon kick is safe on block though (some said no upthread, but wiki notes it as +4). What about the air B dragon tail? Also listed upthread as unsafe, the wiki says "max 7," which I'm not sure what that means (+7 from max range?). Once I get down more of his aerial pressure game, grappling, and cross up setups, I think my hwa jai will be mad scary.
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Yes, Air B Dragon Kick is safe on block, as is Air B Dragon Tail. By max 7, it means that the max Frame Advantage from an Air B Dragon Tail on block is +7 (aka, landing it EXTREMELY deep).
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wow. Time to abuse the hell out of that. Thanks for the the clarification.
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Yes, abuse it all day and night.
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Any suggestions for how to consistently get his Downfoward B Slide to come out? Because if I try to combo into it, it just seems like the game does what it wants... I'm getting better at landing it (like for example st.A then the Slide into whatever) but I still randomly get cr.B or B SRK more often than I should.
I was playing Hwa again in training and just examining his options and it occurred to me he has probably the scariest mixup in the game, and very similar to 3rd Strike Akuma. As far as tiers he needs to be sandwiched between Beni, EX Iori, and Shen.
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sorry if any one mentioned it before but i like doing (while drunk) blocked slide ;df ;b to qcb+ ;d...it's hits in the other side like a cross up..
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Any suggestions for how to consistently get his Downfoward B Slide to come out? Because if I try to combo into it, it just seems like the game does what it wants... I'm getting better at landing it (like for example st.A then the Slide into whatever) but I still randomly get cr.B or B SRK more often than I should.
I was playing Hwa again in training and just examining his options and it occurred to me he has probably the scariest mixup in the game, and very similar to 3rd Strike Akuma. As far as tiers he needs to be sandwiched between Beni, EX Iori, and Shen.
I've gotten the B shoryu instead of the slide a couple of times... I think it's just sloppy inputs. Just let the stick/pad go completely neutral between your normal and the slide, and it should never give you a shoryu. I don't really have any tips, though you CAN do d/f+C, d/f+B and it's pretty reliable, and you'll never mess up your d/f+B again with that.
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I see what you mean but st.A doesn't give you a lot of hitstun, so you have to act quickly if that hits.
Anyone know if his B Slide input was changed at all in Climax?
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Nope... It's the same... Hwa imo is the second best right after Karate... Playing against Matt, god knows how many times i get hit with random things that take off 60-80% life with just 1 drive... Latest was trying to go for hop pressure and Matt randomly threw out qcb+B... It hit me during my hop from mid-screen .........aaaaand he kept going with 2 more qcb+B to corner me... Then 1 drive cancel and free meter building later i lost 80%... I had a few sips of coffee while while watching this... lol...
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Ah yes. Hwa Jai random hits are fun. I still need a lot of work, though. Playing Hwa sometimes feels like you're playing Chin, Shen and Goro at the same time.
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Ah yes. Hwa Jai random hits are fun. I still need a lot of work, though. Playing Hwa sometimes feels like you're playing Chin, Shen and Goro at the same time.
thats so true... I'm such a shitty Hwa... I either focus on just landing grab DM... Or just poking... Or just fishing to hit dp+D... Doing them all at the same time is super hard... On top of that you have to always watch the time or keep count of it to keep drunk mode in check... IMHO Hwa is the hardest character in tur game to play to his fullest potential (execution aside... That title is for Ash)
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Hwa is hard to use because you have to keep in mind all of his options available in every situation, and he has TONS of tricks and Yomi.
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Hwa is also hard because you have to constantly be gaining and spending meter for drunk mode. I usually do backdash qcb b to gain meter. It builds meter pretty fast and is usually safe if you are far enough away. Anyone else have any good meter tactics?
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That backdash+qcb+B is really good for meter building, and whiffing qcf+A,qcf+A builds a lot as well. In fact I think it builds twice as much, since it's technically two moves. I usually don't have issues with meter since I pressure pretty often with him, and he gains back a shitload of meter just from pressure. st.D, cr.D, st.A and d/f+B poke pressure is good enough for me. I usually don't want to make much space between me and my opponents. And it helps that I don't put him on first. I really would not suggest putting him on first. Aside from that, his combos generate more meter than they cost while Hwa is drunk, so all you actually need is drinking meter, and maybe having 1 spare in your back pocket for a grab DM.
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Opp on wall...any thing lead to qcf+ ;a+ ;c dp+ ;d cl ;d qcb+ ;d (meaty )if the opp blocked i think it's fr+.. if it hits you can combo it into cl ;d or ;c
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Interesting reset... Very good option when sober. I had just been resetting with st.A, then grab DM after they land. I suppose you could also do that reset after a qcb+B loop when drunk, but maybe qcb+D will come out too quick, not sure.
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Hwa is also hard because you have to constantly be gaining and spending meter for drunk mode. I usually do backdash qcb b to gain meter. It builds meter pretty fast and is usually safe if you are far enough away. Anyone else have any good meter tactics?
I didn't see yesterday night any new meter tactics but the gameplan of tokido was aaaalways stay drunk (with 1 drive cancel at least i note) and rushdown like hell and gaining meter in the process, no matter what get the chance and drunk with 1 only super meter too.
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You can get Drunk with Hwa and even if you have zero bar just by poking them and keeping the pressure it doesn't take very long to build another bar or two.
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Yes thats my style of play as well... He is my anchor now... Everyone uses him second... but i'm thinking if he is this good with meter then why not give him as much meter as possible... I can always stay drunk... Do as many grab DMs as i want... Plus i dont have force myself to play rush down... I usually like playing pretty safe with him like i do with Mai... Having meter at dispoal doesnt bother me if i blow meter on anything really...
Favourite thing about anchor Hwa is being drunk and having HD + 3 meters... Empty hop HD activate + grab DM > Neomax... Best HD ever... 860ish damage with no work... Hahaha...
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i rather use him as a rush down hes first on my team and i never get drunk with him nor do i grab.... i take it i use him really different compared to most folks
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i rather use him as a rush down hes first on my team and i never get drunk with him nor do i grab.... i take it i use him really different compared to most folks
if you arent using those 2 aspects of his gameplay then you are missing out on a HUGE part of his gameplay... Think of the damage boost you get with drink... If Hwa isnt drunk then how scary is he without meter? Not really scary... If you make a wrong guess you will loose about 250 or 350 if you spend a drive... What happens when you drink? Ooooh you suddenly do 600-700 damage from anything you land with only 1 drive... This scares opponents to hell...
This brings you to the grab DM option... Everyone who plays KOF knows how good 1 frame grabs are... So Hwa not only has a 1 frame grab DM, he also has a totally invincible DM that travels past half the screen and punishes anything remotely laggy like a FB or a far C/D on whiff... Keep in mind that Hwa still has these grabs when he is not drunk... Plus after the grab DM you can do a safe jump cross-up mix-up on them... Now as soon as you are drunk, with 1 meter you get to do what the grapplers of this game can only do at the cost of 2 meters...
Once you are drunk with Hwa and have 1 meter + 1 drive, you are the strongest character in the game... Doesnt matter what the situation... Pressure them with his amazing normals... Anti-air them at will... Anytime you land a combo or a dp+D or catch them out of the air with qcb+B/D, spend 1 drive and they loose 600 life minimum... On top of this, they cant even play patient against you because of your grab DM...
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^^
Pretty much. By refusing to use Drunk Mode you're not even scraping the surface of what Hwa Jai can do. It's like willingly not using Xfactor in Marvel 3. In Drunk Mode Hwa goes from being a 'good mid tier character' to 'Holy fucking shit I just 500 health in one combo and he only used one drive! Ban him!' kind of character.
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all of what yal said is very true and i cant disagree with none of if but come time of the end of the day its just my play style just like when i use clark (2nd on my team then ralf) i dont really use SAB (thats for the clark thread) i play as basic as possible and of course i kno dam near all the mix ups and set ups goin into drink but i feel i dont need it
basiclly i rather play smart and do little to no damage then use the advantages of what that character has.... and i have alot of people tell me that im using him wrong but if i can kill a hole team and not get drunk nor use his 1 frame (which i should do) then im just proving to myself that i can handle a challenge such as this 1
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Matt I got a question:
I noticed at MLG even Tokido fell for this. Can Hwa do st.A into Slide B and then D Dragon Tail and remain safe? I always assumed anyone with a command grab could punish it.
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well slide into D dragon tail isn't a true block string, so it can be interrupted with a reversal, and thus not 100% safe. I know when Hwa is drunk is they block the D dragon tail, he's got advantage so it's safe, but not sure about sober and the wiki is sort of confusing on that topic. You could always go into training mode and record the string and have Hwa jump immediately afterwards, then play back and have your character block and then also jump immediately. If you land before Hwa you coulda 1 frame grabbed him
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all of what yal said is very true and i cant disagree with none of if but come time of the end of the day its just my play style just like when i use clark (2nd on my team then ralf) i dont really use SAB (thats for the clark thread) i play as basic as possible and of course i kno dam near all the mix ups and set ups goin into drink but i feel i dont need it
basiclly i rather play smart and do little to no damage then use the advantages of what that character has.... and i have alot of people tell me that im using him wrong but if i can kill a hole team and not get drunk nor use his 1 frame (which i should do) then im just proving to myself that i can handle a challenge such as this 1
ok not to sound mean... but umm you are gonna loose to good players if you don't take full advantage of your character... if i know that you are not gonna drink or grab DM me, you are gonna get rushed down to hell and back... without drink/grab the only reversal Hwa has is B shoryu and i'm not scared of eating it a couple times...
also ...you don't grab with Clark? what is the point of playing a grappler if you are not gonna grab? lol... we don't play fighting games to choose what to do and what not to do... we play to win... and that means do anything and everything you can to win... if it's the same move 10 times in a row then so be it... if people hate you for doing it, call you scummy or shit talk you then it means you are doing a good job... (minus tier-whoring just for the sake of tier-whoring)
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He's talking about Dragon Tail, the QCB+D, not Dragon Kick. When he's sober, slide into QCB+D is interruptable, but the window to reverse seems very small, as I've had people struggle with getting around it. When he's drunk, I think it may actually be a true blockstring, which is disgusting once you've cornered someone, as you can just do slide into QCB+D, land and close C into slide and repeat, provided they don't have any bar to get out. Makes for easy guard breaks.
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all of what yal said is very true and i cant disagree with none of if but come time of the end of the day its just my play style just like when i use clark (2nd on my team then ralf) i dont really use SAB (thats for the clark thread) i play as basic as possible and of course i kno dam near all the mix ups and set ups goin into drink but i feel i dont need it
basiclly i rather play smart and do little to no damage then use the advantages of what that character has.... and i have alot of people tell me that im using him wrong but if i can kill a hole team and not get drunk nor use his 1 frame (which i should do) then im just proving to myself that i can handle a challenge such as this 1
ok not to sound mean... but umm you are gonna loose to good players if you don't take full advantage of your character... if i know that you are not gonna drink or grab DM me, you are gonna get rushed down to hell and back... without drink/grab the only reversal Hwa has is B shoryu and i'm not scared of eating it a couple times...
also ...you don't grab with Clark? what is the point of playing a grappler if you are not gonna grab? lol... we don't play fighting games to choose what to do and what not to do... we play to win... and that means do anything and everything you can to win... if it's the same move 10 times in a row then so be it... if people hate you for doing it, call you scummy or shit talk you then it means you are doing a good job... (minus tier-whoring just for the sake of tier-whoring)
naw u aint soundin mean lol like i said i choose not 2 do it so it dosent really matter plus it aint like i play professional plus i like a challenge. i played people waaaaaay better then me but i was still able to beat them without drink nor DM (cant say the same thing 4 clark) and i can say i get mo props 4 playing the way i play then playin like everybody else not like i was aiming for it anyway it just happened
like i said its nothing more then a challenge and im enjoying it plus i dont get butt hurt over a game
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Ok I think you're all missing something.
qcb.D is +2 on block if the second hit hits (ie in corner), else you're -1 if it's hit so ...
Thus the basic Hwa gameplan in corner is to do [d.B,f.AC,df.B,qcb.D]*N
There is a gap between the df.B and the qcb.D but to punish you they must use an invincible move or really well timed normal (5f normal will hit you counter I tested with Hwa s.A).
Thus after the qcb.D you do d.B. If he blocks there is a 1~2f hole. That's why you must input f.AC and not s.A, to auto tech throw.
But since I'm not a hwa player I don't now those but it might be powerful after tech throw setup (Well I guess a s.D is a powerful tech throw setup by itself haha).
Ho and obviously, if the qcb.D hits, the whole will combo thus you cancel by the slide and then let's rock!
This loop mixing with all Hwa option gives him a very crazy pressure. While drunk I don't know how exactly it will work.
Hey and don't forget air dp.B if done low is +hell on block (+4 or something like that).
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It seems like during Drunk Mode D Dragon Tail is gdlk.
http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html#http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18048198 (http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html#http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18048198)
You can see Tokido abuse it a lot.
BTW this set is THE HYPEST SHIT!!!
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Wow... Awesome matches... Romance's Yuri is just amazing... Those anti-airs to grabs are disgusting... Tokido's Hwa is also great... i'm stealing shit from him...
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Also j.D, qcb+B is STUPID... If it's blocked then you have advantage... If you time it properly then you can combo afterwards... Now what is really stupid is you can land it really high up where you can't combo afterwards BUT you can land and connect grab DM... You have enough time to react... Just buffer the DM motion and press A/C when you land... What's more STUPID is you can j.D and qcb+B soo late that if whiffs... This becomes SCARY cause you can do j.D early/late and time your qcb+B so that it whiffs... And you can almost instantly grab DM...!!!
Also slide from near max distance is + on block... And max distance sweep to slide will whiff and you cancel grab DM right aftter...
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Got a question regarding Drunk Combos:
Saw this a lot at CEO. Hwa catches them, does qcb+B x3, they're in the corner, qcf+A (I think), then a D SRK, and then more qcb+B without using a Drive Cancel? What is this combo and how do you do it?
Edit: Also holy shit. I've experimenting with D Dragon Tail and holy fuck this is so good. Good pressure, and you can combo into anything even Grab Super. Holy shit. I've never used it because it seemed unsafe and you were free to get air-juggled. The spacing is a little finnicky but easy to get down with practice. I swear I saw Romance and Mago using D Dragon Tail sober and able to get away with it.
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Had an awesome session with Matt yesterday... Hwa is soo broken... lol...
@LouisCipher - qcb+D without any drink is UNSAFE if they stand guard it... If they crouch guard it then you are at plus frames... If it connects on a crouching opponent then you can grab DM...
While drunk qcb+D is dumb... It's plus on block no matter what... If it connects then you can ALWAYS grab DM afterwards... On block you can keep pressuring... If it connects air-air then OMFG...
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Got a question regarding Drunk Combos:
Saw this a lot at CEO. Hwa catches them, does qcb+B x3, they're in the corner, qcf+A (I think), then a D SRK, and then more qcb+B without using a Drive Cancel? What is this combo and how do you do it?
Really? I don't think this is possible. As far as I know if you do qcb+b x 3 and juggle with qcf + A, the only think you can connect with afterwards is B DP or Super. Do you have a stream and timestamp so we can see the combo you're talking about, or do you remember a specific match where it happened?
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Yeah I was messing around in training mode and Drunk Mode D Dragon Tail is really hard to combo off of if they're standing and it hits. If it hits them while crouching it's super easy to combo. But standing is another story.
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Welcome to almost-Terry Bogard Crack Shoot syndrome.
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If the Crack Shoot was really good, yeah sure.
If Hwa does B Slide at about midrange and cancels into D Dragon Tail, what could he be punished with in-between the Slide and Dragon Tail? I'm going to assume EX SRK's and such but I can't figure out the timing.
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If the Crack Shoot was really good, yeah sure.
If Hwa does B Slide at about midrange and cancels into D Dragon Tail, what could he be punished with in-between the Slide and Dragon Tail? I'm going to assume EX SRK's and such but I can't figure out the timing.
I said almost. Makes me kind of depressed...there's honestly no point in playing Terry with Hwa around, other than the fact that you can get accidental DPs from Hwa's slide.
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Okay so I got into training mode and recorded B Slide into (early) D Dragon tail and having him jump at the end of it with Hwa. And I had him fight against my Clark. These are my findings:
Non-Drunk
Distance Close: Cannot interrupt the Slide into Dragontail with an airgrab or a standing A. Possible to hit him with an EX.*EX Kyo and regular Kyo can interrupt with A SRK and EX SRK*. Blocking D Dragon Tail while standing and I can punish with command grab or any meaty. If I block it low I can punish him when he lands with command grab.
Distance mid-screen: Could interrupt the Slide into Dragontail with standing A sometimes the timing is very odd. *EX Kyo and regular Kyo can interrupt with A SRK and EX SRK* Could not interrupt with airgrab or EX Gatling (need to test this). Could punish him normally.
Drunk
Distance Close: Cannot interrupt the D Dragontail with standing A. *EX Kyo and regular Kyo can interrupt D Dragontail with A SRK and EX SRK but input has to be reversed I.E. reverse SRK motion* D Dragontail will cross you up if you block high or low. If you block the crossup high you can punish normally, the timing is a little tight though. Now, (this is important) if you block the crossup low, you cannot punish and Hwa ends up on the side he began whereas if you block the crossup high he ends up behind you. Easy to jump out inbetween the slide and Dragontail, not possible to airgrab Hwa.
Distance mid-screen: Not possible to interrupt the Dragontail with standing A or jump out. *EX Kyo and regular Kyo can interrupt D Dragontail with A SRK and EX SRK* What's interesting is that D Dragontail will not crossup. Blocking high the only way I can punish Hwa is with EX Grab. However if I block low I can punish with regular command grab. Unable to punish with anything else.
Hwa haters and lovers, this is something to keep in mind.
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Hwa and Terry's D flip kick moves all are not real links. Any invincible DP, super, or the like will blow it open. The df+B slide into D Dragon Tail? You don't need an EX DP. Andy, Terry, Joe, Ryo, Mr. Karate, Yuri, Leona, EX Iori, Kyo, and anyone else that has an invincible DP can hit Hwa. The timing is right when the move becomes active (when the purple wave appears). You DP at the right time, you hit him out of it.
Terry has the same issue since it's not a real link. You want to force people to block low long enough to block it low if you want it to be a frame trap. I'm not sure if Hwa has a cancellable sweep, but that would help. Terry does have that so that encourages opponents to block low.
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Hwa's sweep is cancelable, but most people can easily react to D Dragon Tail to at least block it high.
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I'm starting to not use dragon tails in block strings... Hwa can do 3 light normals and slide after and be completely safe... Another s.A after the slide will actually frame trap against a lot of characters... i'll only do qcb.B ender if i have no drive so i can stay close and pressure... This way if i suddenly do qcb.D the opponent will be thrown off a bit...
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I'm starting to not use dragon tails in block strings... Hwa can do 3 light normals and slide after and be completely safe... Another s.A after the slide will actually frame trap against a lot of characters... i'll only do qcb.B ender if i have no drive so i can stay close and pressure... This way if i suddenly do qcb.D the opponent will be thrown off a bit...
Unless you do it from a distance, same for Terry's qcb+B, Hwa's light Dragon Tail is also not safe on block. It's better tod o that then get reversaled, but at that point, whatever they throw out is 2 frames faster than anything you throw out.
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So I'm going to guess since it's pretty easy to AA Hwa or punish him if you block correctly that a lot of people at CEO just didn't know the matchup with him?
I need to look at some replays though. Maybe Romance and Mago did something different to make D Dragon Tail safe?
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I feel there's not enough Hwa play to go around. Some people know how to play him, but people either get stuck at a certain level so they don't bother playing him. Or people get stuck on certain traps and nobody bothers to do something different or better.
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So I'm going to guess since it's pretty easy to AA Hwa or punish him if you block correctly that a lot of people at CEO just didn't know the matchup with him?
I need to look at some replays though. Maybe Romance and Mago did something different to make D Dragon Tail safe?
Honestly yes, but you could also attribute it to nerves. When it comes into play, you see people even at top levels not punishing crap they can just out of fear for mistiming.
Hell, how often do you see Kula get blown up for doing Lay Spin into B Followup? People just won't generally take the risk unless they have a 1 frame CG or something (to which, said characters probably won't do the Unsafe moves to begin with).
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Because Kula can always follow up the Lazy Spin. Just like you see EX Iori's do 2 Rekkas and delay the last hit. Or Terry using Burn Knuckle and then Rising Taco as you try to punish. Or Kim's Toward(x2)A on block.
No one wants to get hit by Kula's followup and get placed instantly in the corner and lose 400 health.
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Because Kula can always follow up the Lazy Spin. Just like you see EX Iori's do 2 Rekkas and delay the last hit. Or Terry using Burn Knuckle and then Rising Taco as you try to punish. Or Kim's Toward(x2)A on block.
No one wants to get hit by Kula's followup and get placed instantly in the corner and lose 400 health.
That's the thing...the space between the Spin and the Follow Ups is easily punishable, and the Lay Spin itself is also punishable. The only possible problem is the slide, but if the opponent decides to block it, she's dead. But no one ever bothers punishing her usual crap, just like no one bothers to punish Hwa.
Let's be honest, even at the highest level, we see punishes against these type of pressure moves about...50% of the time if you're lucky. Mostly everyone just blocks, which can make pressure that much lazier. Luckily for Hwa players, this makes him nearly impossible to deal with up close unless you finally grow a pair and start dealing with those gaps.
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For Kula once she does a s.C she is no longer safe for some character, personally I'm starting to mash a dp when I see it. Because s.C, isn't safe, s.C,f.A too, etc
With Hwa it's a matter to know what is safe or not in which situation :
qcb.B is -1 on guard so be careful with throws. On hit you're +.
qcb.D is +2 on block if the second hit hits (ie in corner), else you're -1 if it's hit so ...
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Well, when drunk it's always +5. Also qcb+D sober is +1 in the corner, or +5 vs crouching opponents. Basically it can hit up to 3 times, and the lowest possible hit only connects against crouchers, giving him the most possible advantage, but for some reason he gets the lowest hit possible every time when he's drunk.
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Ya had a great Hwa vs. Hwa yesterday with Matt... I can play an ok Hwa so far if i play him just sober... As soon as you drink, you have to think so much more... Time of your drink left... Your grab DM setups cause they are scarier... Your combos also become harder... You have to remember your drink time when doing combos... Too much...
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Well I've found after playing Hwa for about a month now, the longer you do it the more you get a feel for things like how much drink time you have left. Though because you get a super freeze, it's not that hard to look at the timer to know when it happened. Keeping track on the other hand is a bit more difficult.
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I just try to get in the habit of looking at the timer during the super flash, and then when I'm doing my qcb+B loops (as they take up lots of time and don't take much attention to pull off).
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I see everyone playing Hwa second... However, i feel that he makes a better anchor than a second... He may seem like he builds a lot of meter... This makes everyone pick him second as he will most likely leave the third character with some meter and drive left... I think it depends on your playstyle really... I used to use grapplers till i found XIII Mai... Sooo i'm good at doing command grabs... When i play Hwa anchor, i find that having extra meter always lets me do grab DM setups... His combos only require drive meter... So with a lot of stocks, i can keep drinking and keep going for grab DM...
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Hwa on 3rd I think is his best overall position. He can just bully the fuck out of anyone. And holy shit getting them in the corner and using D Dragontail in Drunk Mode is fucking brutal!
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I don't like playing Hwa on anchor for a couple of reasons. Mainly, playing a meter-intensive character as your anchor requires you to build your team such that you'll have meter ready for that anchor just in case. In many cases this can limit you from using meter when needed to KO characters, just because you're worried about not having any meter for your anchor. Especially in Hwa's case, not having meter at the end with him as your last character makes certain matches way harder than they should be. This leads into the other reason I don't like Hwa as anchor, he is an in-your-face character and I don't like my anchor to be limited to a certain playstyle. But that's just me, I'd rather play him second so my point can feed him a couple of stocks for drink shenanigans.
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Now we're getting into the meta-game. Personally my first two (Billy and Clark) don't really need much in the way of meter. I tend to use meter to get through their offense (Billy's EX Upkicks and Clark's EX Gatling) and tend to keep it basic and it's worked out pretty well for me. I think Billy on 3rd works so long as you keep a bar for him and at least 1 drive. Just doing a basic Drunk combo will do at least 500 damage and you can build up at least 1-2 bars while drunk and pressuring them.
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Mago Corner pressure (Drunk Mode)
D Dragon Tail, cr.B(x2), s.B, D Dragon Tail, can bait something out*, D Dragon Tail. If it hits follow through with a combo, if not you can repeat the string. Or so it seams.
*They can AA you with an SRK but it has to be done just as you do the D Dragon Tail, it can be difficult for them to react to it. Think of this as a moment where you can bait and punish, or just wait and do whatever, or just do a Slide or another D Dragon Tail. A scary situation for the opponent.
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Curious if anyone has had problems like me:
Opponent in corner: Jump in D, D Dragon Tail (doesn't combo, but it's more of a fake out gimmicky move), B Dragon Tail, B SRK, DC D Dragon Tail, followup D Dragon Tail, and either Super.
I've tried landing the super and for some reason the game registers it every single time as a B SRK. I turned on the input display and it does show me doing QCFx2. I even tried HCFx2 and still, B SRK came out. It wasn't until I followed up the D Dragon Tail followup with TNT Punch then I was finally able to combo into Super.
I swear the game has some weird input problems when it comes to more advanced shit.
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Why wouldn't you follow up with the TNT Punch anyway?
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If you're going for raw damage to kill. Why else?
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Because the difference is negligible and it's easier to follow up?
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hmm.... this is strange. I've definitely done the combo you're talking about before without the TNT punch. Whenever I go into HD mode with Hwa I finish the combo that way, though after watching CEO and seeing Mago's corner combo, I may start doing srk -> D dragon tail (DC) -> D Srk -> super. I'm pretty sure I saw him do this and since only the 2nd hit of the D Srk hits, it scales less and I think you can still get regular super off it and not EX. This combo is only useful if you're not drunk and are trying to conserve meter / optimize damage, i.e. if you're already close to killing. Will try in training mode soon
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Curious if anyone has had problems like me:
Opponent in corner: Jump in D, D Dragon Tail (doesn't combo, but it's more of a fake out gimmicky move), B Dragon Tail, B SRK, DC D Dragon Tail, followup D Dragon Tail, and either Super.
I've tried landing the super and for some reason the game registers it every single time as a B SRK. I turned on the input display and it does show me doing QCFx2. I even tried HCFx2 and still, B SRK came out. It wasn't until I followed up the D Dragon Tail followup with TNT Punch then I was finally able to combo into Super.
I swear the game has some weird input problems when it comes to more advanced shit.
Maybe try reversing the input as he might be crossed up at that point though he really shouldn't. I've had similar cases with corner Hwa Jai combos that required me to reverse the input because at that moment he was crossed up.
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An easy way to solve your problem is buffer the DM motion a little earlier and hold the button down... It will buffer it for you...
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I've been meaning to post this Reynald Hwa Jai combo as the damage is so stupidly high, looks sick, and I haven't see it anywhere so correct me if I'm wrong:
Corner NON-drunk starting with 1 stock 1 drive (but uses two total gaining one in the process):
-s.C, df B, Ex qcf P, air dp B, dp D, [DC] air qcb D, qcb D, air dp B, qcf A, qcf x2+P DM -610
-with j.D is 640
-with j.C, air qcb B starter is 667
Now I know he ha crazier drunk combos but the damage on that is so ridiculous an it's like 550ish starting with a s.A which is insane. Once again, all you need is to start with 1 stock 1 drive (even though it uses 2).
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Wow that is pretty crazy. Thanks a lot for posting this, gonna go hit practice mode now ;).
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That is pretty cool. I never really considered using the TK dp+B. I wonder if it has any good implementations while drunk.
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That is pretty cool. I never really considered using the TK dp+B. I wonder if it has any good implementations while drunk.
I can't take any credit, it's all Reynald but he can't be stuffed to post. It was the first combo he taught me with Hwa and it's the one that stuck for all the aforementioned reasons.
If you think Reynald's Karate was a monster wait till you see him use Hwa...
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If I remeber accurately, s.C,df.B,dp.D,(DC)air dp.B,dp.D,qcfqcf.K (Works with both version) Deals more, should build less gauge though.
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That combo with EX super at the end does 609, which is pretty much the same damage for Reynald's combo and is much, much easier. Of course, if you do Reynald's combo, you have the option of using an extra stock to end with EX DM instead of regular DM, but I can't tell how much damage that does because of how difficult Reynald's combo is. The QCB+D has to hit 4 times for the air DP+B to hit afterwards, which is something that is either character or timing specific (or both). It seems very inconsistent from the bit that I tried it.
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I am having trouble in executing the full screen HD combo. After activation, when doing the Arial dragon kick I cant cancel it into dragon tail; it's not connecting. Any tips on that?
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That combo needs some really weird delays in order to work. Here is a much easier/better fullscreen HD:
st.C, df.B B+C st.C, df.B x dp.D HDC air qcb.B, dp.B HDC air dp.D, dp.B HDC air dp.D HDC air qcb.D, qcb.D, dp.B HDC air qcb.D, qcb.D, dp.D, qcf qcf.BD.
Does more damage IIRC, works fullscreen and is MUCH easier.
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That combo needs some really weird delays in order to work. Here is a much easier/better fullscreen HD:
st.C, df.B B+C st.C, df.B x dp.D HDC air qcb.B, dp.B HDC air dp.D, dp.B HDC air dp.D HDC air qcb.D, qcb.D, dp.B HDC air qcb.D, qcb.D, dp.D, qcf qcf.BD.
Does more damage IIRC, works fullscreen and is MUCH easier.
Thanks Bopper I'll try it out
EDIT: I tried doing Reynald's combo, the second air dp b does not connect, can someone give me a tip on that?
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That combo with EX super at the end does 609, which is pretty much the same damage for Reynald's combo and is much, much easier. Of course, if you do Reynald's combo, you have the option of using an extra stock to end with EX DM instead of regular DM, but I can't tell how much damage that does because of how difficult Reynald's combo is. The QCB+D has to hit 4 times for the air DP+B to hit afterwards, which is something that is either character or timing specific (or both). It seems very inconsistent from the bit that I tried it.
The timing on the qcb+D is not really character specific in terms of at which height the enemy needs to be, but the timing is just something you have to get used to, as far as I know. It just takes lots of practice. I really just kinda judge it by eye, and I get it about 3/4 of the time. That's not a very helpful answer, I know, but it's all I can suggest.
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That combo with EX super at the end does 609, which is pretty much the same damage for Reynald's combo and is much, much easier. Of course, if you do Reynald's combo, you have the option of using an extra stock to end with EX DM instead of regular DM, but I can't tell how much damage that does because of how difficult Reynald's combo is. The QCB+D has to hit 4 times for the air DP+B to hit afterwards, which is something that is either character or timing specific (or both). It seems very inconsistent from the bit that I tried it.
Personally I would go for meter building since you only need to start with 1 drive 1 meter. If done correctly the last D Dragon Tail does 3hits at the end. I dunno if he hits them one more time in the beginning, but I'm positive it's 3 times in the end in order to do the last air.dp K juggle (if you get 2 you won't be able to do it). It's a pretty consistent combo, you get a billion years to hit confirm into Ex qcf P (which you want since it puts him closer if you delay the Ex qcf P) and you don't run into the dp+K overlap with DM.
EDIT: I tried doing Reynald's combo, the second air dp b does not connect, can someone give me a tip on that?
See above. The last D Dragon tail needs to hit 3 times in the end, if you're hitting twice then you're mistiming it.
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Thanks guys.
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I just double checked. The last Dragon Tail actually hits 4 times despite it looking like 3hits.
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I just tried the Reynald combo in practice, and its actually waaaay easier then i thought it would be! As long as you delay the second qcb.D a little, its really super consistant. Im defenitly going to start using this one for those rare occasions when i get a hit whilst sober ;)
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im not getting the timing of the dpD after the first airdp+B. Can anyone do a video of this. Thanks in advance
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I might be able to cap it on saturday. Tho you are probably just doing the air dp.b too higjh in the air.
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thanks , can anyone tell me if its possible to do dp+B DC drink? a friend told me he got it right once , but ive been trying it and it doesnt work.
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It's possible, just extremely difficult. I've managed to do it. You can link another dp+B or qcf+A after it in the corner. You're going to have a much easier time if you DC from qcf+AC into drink instead.
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This is just theory, but would hcb~f+B-->hcb P work as a shortcut?
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Tested some cornercombos and the best one so far is:
cl.C, df.B, dp.D DC qcb.D, qcb.D, qcb.B, super_ex super
570 dmg with regular super, 630 with ex. Builds 90% bar. IMO this is the best cornercombo so far. The 10% extra meter gain on the reynald combo is not worth the added difficulty (tho it looks sick ^^). The only "hard" part about this one is that you have to delay the dp.D a tiny bit.
EDIT: forgot to post, dp.B hits so late that you are in the air once the DC window starts. Hence you can only DC into air specials.
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This is just theory, but would hcb~f+B-->hcb P work as a shortcut?
thats the first thing i tried as well it just doesnt seem to want to work. even tried it in hd mode and still nothing.
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IMO this is the best cornercombo so far. The 10% extra meter gain on the reynald combo is not worth the added difficulty (tho it looks sick ^^). The only "hard" part about this one is that you have to delay the dp.D a tiny bit.
Just curious, what part are you finding challenging because it's definitely a practical combo with some practice. Are you using a shortcut for the air.dp K because it really helped me.
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I've been trying to do the dp+B to drink cancel myself, and I can't seem to do it either. Sorry, I must have been wrong, I thought I had done it a while ago. I guess not. I wonder if Hwa might be in an aerial state on the very first frame. You might only be able to do aerial specials. The easy way to test would be to see if you can cancel from dp+B into qcfx2+B/D, since that would require only a f+B/D after the initial dp+B input. But yeah, it's not really worth doing.
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IMO this is the best cornercombo so far. The 10% extra meter gain on the reynald combo is not worth the added difficulty (tho it looks sick ^^). The only "hard" part about this one is that you have to delay the dp.D a tiny bit.
Just curious, what part are you finding challenging because it's definitely a practical combo with some practice. Are you using a shortcut for the air.dp K because it really helped me.
video please , video or it didnt happen
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im not getting the timing of the dpD after the first airdp+B. Can anyone do a video of this. Thanks in advance
Here you go ^^ - http://youtu.be/4-8Lx2PeCgA (http://youtu.be/4-8Lx2PeCgA)
Kane: I don't think it is especially hard. Its just that the other one is easier and deals more damage. Only + for this one is a bit more meter gain. But yeah its definitely practical :)
EDIT: Tested some more after i made the vids, and it seems like cl.C, df.B x dp.D DC qcb.D, qcb.D, tk dp.B, qcf.A, qcf qcf.B is the strongest 1 bar combo (also has 95% meter gain).
Also, cl.C, df.B x dp.D DC qcb.D, qcb.D, dp.D, qcf qcf.BD (about 95% meter gain as well) is the strongest 2 bar i could find. 676 dmg IIRC
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nice thanks bopper. il practice this. so the motion for the instant dp should be f d df uf +B right?
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So i played around a bit with CH CD x drink, and it seems you can get pretty crazy damage off it in the corner starting with 2 drive and 1 bar. The best i could find was:
CH st.CD x drink, dp.B DC qcb.D, qcb.D(2 hit), qcb.D(3 hit), qcb.B, qcb.B, qcf.A, dp.B DC qcb.D, qcb.D(2 hit, gotta delay this one a bit), qcb.D(3 hit), qcb.B, qcb.B, qcf.A, qcf qcf.BC for around 891. You end up with a bit of meter, and 1-2 hits away from another drive bar.
If you end it with dp.B instead of super, it does 110 stun, so as long as you have got a few hits in beforehand, it should be a guaranteed kill. I think you MIGHT be able to do 120 stun if you do 2 reps of dp.B DC qcb.D, qcb.D(3 hit), qcb.Bx4. But that is too hard to be practical IMO unless there is some sort of secret timing trick that i do not know about ^^
EDIT: lindseyboi yeah that is correct. I just do f, n, d, df, f, uf+B
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I've been scouring this thread, and it seems like we still aren't sure what Hwa's best combos are, heh.
Plus he's practically two characters in one...
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Pretty much. It seems like a lot of people just don't know how to deal with Hwa when he's drunk.
I think -I mentioned this pages ago- something that holds back Hwa players is over/under reliance on his Slide. There's some I want to call it a loose input when he does Slide and you sometimes get a move you absolutely did not want out and you're free as a result.
That and just people not knowing what they should do, should they focus on just getting Drunk and doing whatever, or should they do a little bit of everything?
The options Hwa has available to him at all times is mind fuck worthy.
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Yeah, one of the struggles I would run into while playing Hwa is that he can do so much, and focusing on just one aspect of his game may actually cause you to struggle.
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I found a pretty impractical stun combo with Hwa Jai just now.
j.D qcb.B d.A s.C df.B srk.D DC qcb.D qcb.D qcb.B*3 qcf.A srk.B DC qcb.D qcb.D qcb.B*3 qcf.A srk.B
Presto, do whatever after that. Highly inefective because of the link at the start that i'm sure no one would care to go for since you could just use it as a kill combo instead obviously..
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Hwa non drunk, 1 stock full drive kill combo is up!
http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=7.0 (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=7.0)
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Hwa non drunk, 1 stock full drive kill combo is up!
This combo is sweet. Is the D after the slide before the HD activate a one frame link?
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Well, since st.C and st.D both hit after the slide and they both have diferent startup, no, it's not a 1 frame link.
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Cool, thanks for that info. gonna try this out this weekend. Hwa Jai - so much damage.
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Does anyone have any advice on non-combo Hwa tech that is effective, especially frame traps and cross up / safe jump setups? Upthread the basic ones were mentioned (slide into D dragon Tail, st. a -> slide -> st. a), but I'm just trying to see if anyone has figured out anything I don't know. I looked around and found one interesting safe jump / option select stuff if you use ex dragon tail, but that's it. Video here:
KOF XIII - Hwa: Safe Jump and Option Select (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFazEqWwK3k#ws)
Anyone have anything else? Trying to level my Hwa up before the big tourney here in 2 weeks.
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There is a setup against grapplers, but specialy against Clark.
in the corner or just close to when the oponent is about to wake up from a soft/hard knock down or recovery roll. Do standing CD. nothing that Clark does can escape it since Hwa is in the air, this way, your oponent can only react to 3 possible options in his best judgment:
Roll forward/backward. In which case if done backward, which is very unlikely, your CD will wiff and you'll get a full combo afterwards, allowing for a vortex'ish follow up.
If he does EX shoulder rush. Your CD will trade and send Clark flaying back and giving you a state of juggle since you were in the air, now, I it gives you a soft knockdown the I doubt you can followw up, but it will give you a chance to do CD before be wakes up.
After that you only get a blocking oponent, and given the block stun on CD it allows for an easy dragon tail block string, after the first dragon tail being blocked, your oponent is expecting a low hit, just do another dragon tail right after, but not too often.
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Yes, abuse it all day and night.
That move has some dirty crossup properties like Yuri's dive kick as well. It's also a really good mobility tool.
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Hey guys I'm trying to pick up Hwa Jai but I don't have a single clue where I should be starting with this character. What are some Hwa Basic stuff I should know about? He seems a little on the complex side with all these different dragon tail moves.
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Like with every character in KOF in the beginning, try your best to understand and learn his normal moves. He has some very good standing and crouching normals. Learn the proper ranges, whats cancelable or not, if they hit crouching opponents or not, which ones are good against hop attacks, quick punishes, etc.
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I have no experience with Hwa Jai but was wondering if over 800 damage with HD mode and no meter (non drunk) normal for a character like him? He seems to do too much damage. -_-
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That's actually pretty normal for him. Depending on how you start with him he can get a full kill combo off 2 bars while sober.
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Hwa Jai's Fake Crossup Dragon Kick KOF XIII (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyGzSzKDqG0#ws)
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Who doesn't tech that knockdown though? If they're in the corner they won't for fear of command grab but then you can't crossup.
What's more useful to me is setups off cmd throw. Slight pause into sj.D is a great meaty crossup.
sj.D xx dp+B (input backwards) gives you a level 1 or 2 DM combo. Instead of sj.D, do an early air dp+B or a late air qcb+B for non-crossup.
If the opponent is rolling from this just go for the meaty sj.D but buffer/OS a run input and you can catch them with another cmd throw or normal throw. Dirty.
Oh, if they're smart and inputting a backwards dp, air qcb+D will evade it! And you can punish some with DM/EX DM.
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KoF XIII : KCE 520 "Hwa Jai combo movie by Hagi" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ZYTukdBN4#ws)
some cool stuff in here! Especially the double dp hd ender, and stuncombo(tho bala already did a vid on that). Im guessing you need to do backdash TK dp for some of these, gonna hit up practice later and try them out.
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So I've started playing Hwa more inspired by Zidane & Liston & I've gotta say, this character is still retarded & Top 3 for sure. I don't know why his popularity dropped but he's pretty fun & has plenty of options to deal with all sorts of situations. With nearly everything that he does being safe I'm surprised more defensive players aren't using him plus he has Kara CD (D~CD) which gives it even MORE range than it already has. Other than characters that do the same thing as him or play a range game he doesn't have many bad matchups (IMO Billy & Kim) but they are winnable.
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KaneBlueRiver revealing his dirty little tricks
[KOFXIII] Hwa Jai - Corner escape into ambiguous uncrossup HD combo (992 damage - 2 meter) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myO46bz7xq4#)