Dream Cancel Forum

King of Fighters XIII => Character Discussion => Sie Kensou => Topic started by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 06:40:25 AM

Title: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 06:40:25 AM
(http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af171/dreamcancel/kofxiii/kensou.gif)

Notation
;a = Light Punch
;b = Light Kick
;c = Strong Punch
;d = Strong Kick

* = EX version possible

Command Normals
Backflip Feint - ;b ;d

Special Moves
Chokyudan - ;qcb ;a / ;c *

Ryutouda - ;qcf ;a / ;c
  ∟ ;qcf ;a / ;c (Ryutetsushou)
          ∟ ;qcf ;b / ;d (Hasei Shitsukuu Zanryuu)

Ryubokko - ;dp ;a / ;c *

Ryugakusai - ;rdp ;b / ;d *

Ryusogeki - ;qcb ;a / ;c (in air) *

Sikuzanryukyaku - ;qcf ;b / ;d *

Desperation Moves
Super Chokyudan - ;qcb ;qcb ;a / ;c *

Super Punch Drill - ;qcf ;hcb ;a / ;c

Neomax
Seigan Senki Hakkei - ;qcf ;qcf ;a ;c

Kensou's Wiki entry (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Sie_Kensou_(XIII)).

Console changes:
*Air EX qcb.P starts up faster
*s.B>C is now a target combo. Follow ups possible after it hits.
*His punch super is now a 1 frame throw
*When air qcb.P hits, it can be canceled with a special or greater
*His fb’s recovery time is improved

Producer Yamamoto says: Aside from being a good way to disrupt guard, his punch super can be used effectively to catch opponents who roll past his fb. His fb game has improved and can be used as a central strategy now that the recovery is better. His air qcb.P can be cancelled with any special and the new s.B>C target combo can be linked by following with c.B or s.D. I recommend using these changes aggressively along with his fb whilst minding distances.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 06:40:39 AM
Juicy Bits - KOF13 Character Basics: Kensou (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH8UYrUwZMs#ws)
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 06:40:54 AM
Reserved
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: milesw on December 11, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
you cant max cancel ex fireball super?
what gives?
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: oricon on December 11, 2011, 07:56:58 PM
Heres a console exclusive new BNB combo for Kensou.

CR ;b ST ;b ST ;c CR ;b xx Rekkas
+ Damage: 240

Got a decent HD combo

Jump  ;c ST  ;b ST  ;c ST ;b ST ;c Activate HD Mode ST ;d RDP ;d HD Cancel Rekka x2 RDP ;d HD Cancel Rekka x2 RDP HD Cancel Air QCB ;c land QCB x2  ;a ;c Max Cancel QCF x2  ;a ;b
+ Damage: 902
+ Meters Used: 4

Note: If you do replace the last RDP with an EX one you can do 935 damage.



Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Buriki One on December 12, 2011, 08:45:37 PM

1. What is the difference between EX Rekkas and regular Rekkas. Do they have frame advantage if i stop in the middle of the chain. HOw punishable is this move (EX and normal) on block or is this move ONLY meant for combo finishers.

2. With the speed upgrade on his fireball. Can he do the fireball/frame traps he could do in 98/2k2?

3. Looks like he lost his 98/2k2/XI pokes, so what normals are good now. standing and air to air

4. Can anyone please explain what his new qcf+K move is and its uses?

5. Any properties or use for his command somersault?
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: desmond_kof on December 21, 2011, 09:42:37 PM
For Kensou players:

KOFⅩⅢ 練習対戦研究実況プレイ 008 ケンスウ① (Kensou Master Class) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF-qGntk6xk#ws)
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: OCV|Gilgamesh on December 22, 2011, 01:13:34 AM
kupô

i have hard time to deal with these character Mai/Leona/Iori

can you give me some advices to kill theme

Mai - good zoning with normal,the threat of NeoMAX,very nice air play :-(
Leona - same as Mai with V-Slasher, mix with hop+CD>d.B again and again......
Iori - Crossp b.B, jump B/D, and the normal Iori stuffs

thanks kupô ^0^
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: SAB-CA on December 25, 2011, 11:31:33 AM
I don't really PLAY Sie, but my brother does, so I fight him a lot. So I'll hazard some guesses, especially since I DO play Mai and Leona, and I know what I'd be worries to run into.

Mai - good zoning with normal,the threat of NeoMAX,very nice air play :-(

You know, you might be able to Bait Mai's Neomax on twitchy players by throwing out a noraml to call out the neomax idea, and then quickly command-backflipping. She'd pass right through you, and you could cancel the flipp into special upon landing. You can beat her at projectile games with Chokyudan, also, and this could bait her into trying to land EX Kachousen in projectile wars. As Kensou, I'd say in on Mai. She has no really fantastic Anti-airs normally, and you jump C and B can both be used well to maintain aerial pressure on knockdowns. I like to use run-unders with her, to switch sides on jumpers and suprise them, but Kensou's Ryusogeki should help make that hard for her to do.

And you have a command grab. Perfect way to punish a desperate Mai who tries to land Musasabi, Hissatsu, Ukibane, or poorly-timed projectiles. She might be a better zone'r, but you're much stronger up close.

Leona - same as Mai with V-Slasher, mix with hop+CD>d.B again and again......

Without meter, Leona's reversal options are silenced by deep jump-ins, and if she's trying to block, you're keeping up solid pressure. Always cover a knockdown with a fireball, of course, and run behind it with caution, to try and bait the V-slasher. She can't outfireball you at all, and you can stop and block before a slasher hits you, if you didn't commit to an action.

Hop CD is kinda slow. You could possibly stand D or hop B her out of it. And again, that cool backflip with invincibility and the ability to cancel into specials gives you some nice anti-pressure control. And you have a great DP that even moves you foward, and splits his legs both ways, possibly even trading with crossup attempts.

A solid Kensou gives my Leona some trouble. He's not as easy to control as I'd like, and he makes much of her pressure more unsafe than usual.

Iori - Crossp b.B, jump B/D, and the normal Iori stuffs

thanks kupô ^0^

Your DP, once again, is one of the best at possibly eating / catching his crossup. But preferably, I'd want to keep him out, and chip away at him. It's not like he has any far-ranged options as Claw, and as flame, his up-close specials become less-effective, maybe making the close-up fight a bit more fair.

Iori's love their overzelous hop pressure, so maybe even full jumping back and letting out a Ryusogeki -> Ryugakusai combo should catch him every once in a while.

1. What is the difference between EX Rekkas and regular Rekkas. Do they have frame advantage if i stop in the middle of the chain. HOw punishable is this move (EX and normal) on block or is this move ONLY meant for combo finishers.

2. With the speed upgrade on his fireball. Can he do the fireball/frame traps he could do in 98/2k2?

3. Looks like he lost his 98/2k2/XI pokes, so what normals are good now. standing and air to air

4. Can anyone please explain what his new qcf+K move is and its uses?

5. Any properties or use for his command somersault?

I noticed noone answered these. Let me give my best reply here, too:

1. Dunno about EX rekka safety. Rekka's seem decently safe in the fact that the first 1 or 2 push the enemey back a bit, so you're mostly likely not gonna be grabbed / DP'd out of them. the run and kickoff also is fairly safe, but really great punishes could get you.

2. Dunno if it's be 2k2 like or anything, but he can apply solid pressure with D's into fireballs. As he can also cancel normals into backflip, this helps vary when and what he uses to counter with, allowing the opponent to find more ways to jump into his traps.

3. Stand and ground Bs are good ground control. He has an easy dash-in standing move that hits low with it, and he can chain into his C, in order to link into more damage. Sweep and stand D are also pretty good. I find his hop / Jump B to be solid Air-to-Air in similiar ways to Iori's or Ralf's. Jump D hits people who are above you in-air pretty well, and Jump CD is solid if you get into the air before them. Also not bad at setting up jump /hop pressure.

4. I mostly think of the dash-and-kick as a nice way to push people away, so you can start zoning again. It's a great way to push them back after counter hits, and after Ryusogeki hits. Can hit people who try to back-hop too often, as well. Mix it with other things to do after tossing a fireball on an opponent, and along with dash in Bs, Ds, and hops, they'll have a lot to consider over what you might be doing.

5. Start up on Flip is invincible (think it last the whole first flip), and it's cancellable during this time, through the stated first flip. The 2nd flip isn't cancellable, and just helps you escape. You can use it to flip people GCCD's, and punish afterwards, just to make them miss jump-ins, to escape throws, cancel normals, etc.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: OCV|Gilgamesh on December 27, 2011, 12:29:42 PM
thanks man ^^
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Diavle on January 10, 2012, 06:11:16 AM
Started using him again and after hitting practice, the highest meterless punish seems to be:

s.B, sC, sD, rekkas (260 dmg)

Some minimal effort HD combos:

(2 bar) s.B, sC, HD, s.B, sC, qcb+C, neomax (610 dmg)

(3 bar) s.B, sC, HD, s.B, qcf hcf+P, neomax (728 dmg)

(4 bar) s.B, sC, HD, s.B, sC, qcb+C, qcb qcb+C, neomax (857 dmg)


Any tips to consistently linking B or D after the sB, sC combo? I get it but not consistently so the opponent can mash a special or super :/

Qcf+K is so good for catching ppl out of nowhere. Also excellent for punishing lows, especially those pesky mashers. Also great for doing behind a fireball for a combo.

Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: jinxhand on January 26, 2012, 09:22:53 AM
You gotta be careful with that qcf+B with some matchups though... King can run in and do far s.D, and to my knowledge, Kyo can do the same, which can mean HD combo if there's a full bar... I think Clark and Ralf can do their b~f+C and do whatever afterwards... Throwing qcf+B out with a projectile, pending if it's A or C, can help make it somewhat safe though, but I think the best option would be using his A projectile...

I'm loving his fireball traps, and tbh, I think he has the best fireball traps in the game though. There are many cases where I catch the opponent with the second projectile and combo it with c.D for the knockdown.

I will say it's very important to learn his s.B, s.C link into either c.B to rekkas or another s.B, s.C into HD and then another s.B, s.C to whatever else... I feel with Kensou, spacing is even more important, as being slightly farther away can change his combo if you're getting into using his links. Some situations allow a c.B as a starter, whereas there are other cases in which you can't rely on starting off with c.B into s.B, s.C because the following c.B will whiff...

I'm not even gonna lie though, I'm still trying to get the gist of fully utilizing his B+D backflip. I have some ideas as to what I can and can't do with it, and seeing how it has some invincibility frames, I think I can incorporate that into his ground game...

I'm not liking how the majority (if not all) of his normals are diagonal in motion, which I think in turn effects his hitboxes... c.C seems good still, as does s.D, but his only good aerial attack that seems decent is j.B. I like j.D, but it doesn't work well for me at times; same with j.C...
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: YMK on January 27, 2012, 01:02:57 AM
^backflip is mostly useless, you can cancel it into specials once he gets to the handstand part, the invul is long gone before then though. ive only really used it in combos. lol

Ive been using Kensou on point and LOVING it. He does well against King, IMO, as he can cr.D and duck under her fireballs. forcing her to fight him, but she can still be tough, especially if she gets you into the corner.

I like using him on point just cause his meter gain is nice. most people dont seem to know that after landing a Qcf+K (like the end of rekka chain), you can whiff another QCF+b for a bit of extra meter, you can whiff a 2nd one, but you can eat a reversal easy.

also cool to note, is that lvl2 mashed DP+C (the version that gets 9 hits) is safe. its like -1 if not 0.

Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: jinxhand on February 02, 2012, 07:04:10 AM
I'm starting to use backflip more and more in my gameplay... Changing the gap between Kensou and the opponent with backflip while canceling it to his fireballs are great, especially when it makes the opponent afraid to jump in because they hit the fireball trying to dodge it... They can't do too much rolling, because qcf+B/D or qcf,hcb+A/C make him even more of a threat... Oh yeah, using backflip to force a jump in can help at times, because you can cancel it into rdp+B/D to get an AA in there... Against ground projectiles it's better, but it requires timing to avoid those things with that move... I feel backflip can definitely boost Kensou's game imo...

In the fear of opponent's rolling past fireballs, I'm wondering if setting up traps with dp+A/C would work... I know it's possible to block Kensou's c.D, and roll past his fireball without relying on GCAB... I'm thinking if you can bait or train the opponent to roll past that setup if they could run into his dp+A/C with the right spacing without being able to do anything. I haven't had time to test it out, but I'll post up if it works...

Oh yeah, how are you finding the frame data for Kensou???
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Reiki.Kito on February 14, 2012, 12:54:06 PM
So, was playing around with Kensou and there was something I noticed with him.

As a combo starter for an HD combo, you can do s.B, st.C twice. Mind you, I don't play Kensou, but the extra 182 damage added on to whatever you can cook up in HD mode would be great.

j.C, st.B, st.C, st.B, st.C, {HD Bypass} qcf+CB, qcf+C, [HDC] dp+D (2 hits), [HDC] qcf, hcb+P, [MC] qcf x2 +AC = 699 dmg

I do not play him, but I figure this info is useful who can make my game complete.

EDIT:

Apparently, you can do 4 sets of st.B, st.C if you don't HD bypass and far C is special cancellable in HD mode. 4 sets adds up to 394 dmg. Will try to do a relatively simple HD combo to see the damage with 3 bars.

EDIT:

j.C st.B, st.C, st.B, st.C, [HDA] st.B, st.C, st.B, st.C qcf+C, qcf+C, [HDC] dp+D (2 hits), [HDC] qcf, hcb+P, [MC] qcf x2 +AC = 795 dmg

I could have max cancelled later, but I was worried it would miss. In any case, this didn't require much in terms of HD. You could easily add in a few more reps of qcf+C x2 into dp+D before cancelling into the super into neomax.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on February 14, 2012, 02:41:17 PM
Doing two sets of his TC to start an HD is usually a good thing, makes it a lot easier to hit confirm, and yeah it is known.  I try to usually avoid doing two sets after HDA because my HD combos tend to push my gauge to the limit so I can't afford to waste too much time.

But yeah if you know your spacing and you're not that confident hitconfirming off of the first TC, it's nice to have.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: oricon on February 14, 2012, 02:48:12 PM
Didn't realize that kensou could link ST D off his target combo think its a 2 frame link.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on February 14, 2012, 03:37:53 PM
Didn't realize that kensou could link ST D off his target combo think its a 2 frame link.

It was mentioned in the change lists by the director.  And it feels more like a one frame link.  If you can land it consistently, then TC, st.D xx EX DP is his best punish combo.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Reiki.Kito on February 14, 2012, 05:57:09 PM
Didn't realize that kensou could link ST D off his target combo think its a 2 frame link.

It was mentioned in the change lists by the director.  And it feels more like a one frame link.  If you can land it consistently, then TC, st.D xx EX DP is his best punish combo.

So, was playing with Kensou a little more and an almost staggeringly easy HD combo for 4 bars only requires you use C fireball, [HDC] EX Super Fireball, (MC) Neomax

The whole thing does about 890 dmg, but if anyone can make it any better with another rep or something I might be missing, maybe even that st.D in HD, I'd really appreciate it.

Okay, here it goes:

j.C, st.b, st.C, -delay- st.B, st.C [HDA], st.B, st.C, -delay-, st.B, st.C, qcf+C, qcf+C, [HDC] dp+D (2), [HDC] qcf+C, qcf+C, [HDC] qcb+C, [HDC] qcbx2 +AC, (MC) qcfX2+AC = 890 dmg
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on February 14, 2012, 06:26:28 PM
If I remember I hit around 914 for 4 bars.  It's been a while.  I hit 950 with 5 before.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Reiki.Kito on February 14, 2012, 07:17:35 PM
If I remember I hit around 914 for 4 bars.  It's been a while.  I hit 950 with 5 before.

In HD mode, I don't really know what to do. I just did whatever linked. If you have a better set of specials I can substitute, that'd be great!
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on February 14, 2012, 07:51:06 PM
Well the best loop to do with him is the RDP+B [HD] air QCB+P.

Now for the most part the best version of it is corner only where you get to throw in some Fireballs after the dive bomb and before another DP to add some damage.

From around midscreen, you have to do RDP+D first in order to get the dive bomb to push to the corner.  From a bit further out, you have to add a couple of rekkas.  From full screen you have to start with two rekkas, do 1 hit of RDP+D, do two more rekkas, THEN do the RDP+D into dive bomb.

Of course, if you really want to get down to it, there's a trial mode combo where you can do the RDP+B [HDC] air QCF+P loop from anywhere, but you have to run in after the dive bomb before doing another DP until you get to the corner, and that's a pain.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Amedř310 on February 14, 2012, 07:56:29 PM
Few things I know:

Normal to Backflip are safe against GCD.

Somewhere from midstage to corner, Sie can perform:

...(HDA) st. C, rdp+B(1 hit), (HDC) qcf+A/Cx2, (HDC) rdp+B(1 hit), (HDC) qcbx2+A/C, rdp+D, (HDC) air qcb+A/C...

Hit confirming qcf+K in corner will place Sie in a position to perform fb trap qcb+A. Hit confirming qcf+K from full screen will leaving Kensou to do either a fb trap qcb+C or a qcf+K to safety run-in.

If one or none of these work, please correct me.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Reiki.Kito on February 14, 2012, 08:03:27 PM
Alright, I'll try this out, thanks!
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on February 14, 2012, 08:28:41 PM
Didn't think Reiki would get on that Kensou train.  Did one of your mains piss you off?
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Reiki.Kito on February 14, 2012, 08:31:10 PM
Didn't think Reiki would get on that Kensou train.  Did one of your mains piss you off?

No, I'm actually learning him to teach someone else.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on February 14, 2012, 08:34:57 PM
Didn't think Reiki would get on that Kensou train.  Did one of your mains piss you off?

No, I'm actually learning him to teach someone else.

Ah I see.  Well remember, the corner is where Kensou dominates.  Do whatever it takes to get the opponent there.  After that it's a matter of knowing how to change it up to inflict heavy damage.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: marchefelix on February 15, 2012, 08:42:56 PM
So, about his fireballs...

He's got an EX fireball and a fireball DM. Isn't that a little redundant? Or are there cases where it would be better to use one over the other?

The way I see it, the fireball DM is better because it does more damage and has a bigger hitbox. The only thing the EX fireball is better at that I can think of is speed, but I don't think slower speed should be a problem for the Fireball DM.

What can you guys tell me about their differences?
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on February 15, 2012, 09:20:01 PM
Fireball DM keeps the opponents jumping habits and punishes in check forcing them to react to your FBs rather than predicting them.

EX Fireball comes out as fast if not faster than C Fireball DM however just the nature of the move itself only requiring one QCB rather than two, makes it a lot better for FB wars as you can win with reactions as well rather than just predicting your opponents moves.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Amedř310 on March 03, 2012, 10:55:11 PM
Alright, I'll try this out, thanks!

Ok. I just realized that after hitting Athena with qcf+K in the corner. An immediate qcf+A will not trap her because she gets up late. So, st. D(whiff cancel), qcf+A works on her instead.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: jinxhand on March 07, 2012, 08:27:17 PM
I'm not sure if anyone has thought of this, but if you're quick enough with using B+D, you can bait a GCCD with a normal, then cancel into B+D, which will make the move whiff, allowing you to do things like dp+C, qcf+B, or a specific DC combo... Supers can also be used at this point... Anything is free game if you baited this and was in HD mode...

I'm still testing to see if this won't work with specific GCCD attacks,  but so far, I haven't found one character that can stuff that bait attempt... Oh yeah, j.CD into (air)qcb+C can help in the GCCD baiting as well, making the (air)qcb+C hit, and allowing Kensou to combo accordingly... 

Double tapping s.D after his s.B, s.C will also help it link more consistently... Other than that, don't expect to be able to mash on D to get that link...
Title: Re: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: choysauce on March 16, 2012, 10:40:20 PM
Kensou seems so straight forward lol. Seems tough to come up with new tech for him.

But I've seen a cool technique recently. If someone lands on afb near you, you can do rekkas to squeeze in some damage and corner carry

Also I've seen some opinions about kensou being a good anchor. I don't know if I agree with this. What would be the reasoning?

The only thing I can think of would be having access to more ex fb supers.

Sent from my R800x using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on March 18, 2012, 07:49:49 PM
Okay, I finished doing up Kensou's Wiki Page, if anyone has any issues or would like something to add, or whatever, please inform me so I can do said changes.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: desmond_kof on March 18, 2012, 08:11:12 PM
Hey man, I added his arcade to console changes, a section for gameplay overview (with pros and cons) and a strategy section.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on March 18, 2012, 08:21:38 PM
Hey man, I added his arcade to console changes, a section for gameplay overview (with pros and cons) and a strategy section.

...Damn it, back to work T_T.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: desmond_kof on March 18, 2012, 08:23:52 PM
Hehehe, to be honest, wiki's are never really fully 100% 'finished' because information can always change with time and different experiences.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on March 18, 2012, 10:20:48 PM
I'm learning that the hard way.
Title: Re: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: jinxhand on March 20, 2012, 05:43:30 PM
Kensou seems so straight forward lol. Seems tough to come up with new tech for him.

But I've seen a cool technique recently. If someone lands on afb near you, you can do rekkas to squeeze in some damage and corner carry

Also I've seen some opinions about kensou being a good anchor. I don't know if I agree with this. What would be the reasoning?

The only thing I can think of would be having access to more ex fb supers.

Sent from my R800x using Tapatalk

I don't think Kensou is as straight forward as most people think... He has quite a few tricks up his sleeve. He can poke and go right into backflip, which can cancel into a anything that's not a normal... His qcf+B/D can be used as a simple run to build meter and to run behind his projectile... I'm still convinced he has the best fireball traps...

Like I was saying awhile ago, with Kensou you have to constantly think in layers-- tricky layers, but layers nonetheless... You can't keep doing the same thing with him against every character (/obvious) like you can with Kyo, Iori, Terry, and other characters that can use a fairly consistent strategy.

Fireball traps work better for some, whereas others your best bet is rushing down, pushing to the corner for that corner combo. Pending on who you're fighting, you can straight up rush down and poke, step back and do something simple like roll into his qcf,hcb+P... Sure this won't work all the time (pending the opponent), but it's still something useful... You have to really be creative with him, even if it's trying out simple things here and there...

As for him being anchor, I don't think that would fair out... Being 1st or 2nd is good, because he has enough meter to do sufficient damage. I keep him up front because he can build enough meter to at least do a decent DC combo, and sometimes a full blown HD with 2 stocks of meter if need be... But again, this is based on my style of play... Some Kensou players might not build enough meter to do much, so they'll keep him at 2nd... I personally think he fits best up front... That isn't to say he won't be a great anchor, but I've never seen anyone use him as an anchor, even in the older KOFs...
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on April 06, 2012, 10:47:53 PM
Alright, a lot Kensou's wiki short of his matchups are filled up.  If ANYONE has any input or fixes to mention, please do so.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Jon Slayton on April 09, 2012, 08:25:50 AM
I feel like Kensou can work as anchor. I was experimenting with him in tournament recently as anchor, I usually run him second, and it definitely worked out, I got a couple of reverse OCVs with him. The big points are:

More meter for corner throw combos.
More meter for the dp > j.qcb+C > EX DM combo mid screen.
More Meter for command grabs.
Meter for his HD combo which he gets and confirms into very easily IMO.

Then once he's used the meter to kill a character or two, he has all the tools to lame it out and keep the opponent and their fully stocked meter away from him. His only downside is his damage on his HD combo but 700-800 is still passable.

I really don't like him as a point character personally though.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on April 09, 2012, 08:56:06 AM
More often than not, anchors in this game have the tools equipped to annihilate FB users.  Shen, you aren't laming him, hell he can actually lame you out as your FBs do nothing to him.  Hwa Jai, when he has Drink, which he will if you are content with laming out, will let him in for free if you throw a FB, hell even if he isn't Drunk, he has C Dragon Backbreaker.  Vice, no way she's being kept out that easily.  Elisabeth, isn't happening, Clark can get in, Ash...well Ash will out lame Kensou.  Kyo can pick his spots to get in. 

And then once they're in, then what?  Yeah, having the Command Grab is very nice for punishing unsafe stuff and gimmicks but of the above...only Hwa Jai has a move you'd legitimately eliminate from usage thanks to having the meter, whereas on the flip side, they gain more options against yours when THEY have the meter.

Having more meter for Corner Throw combos is somewhat nice, yet ultimately not that big a deal since past 1/1 or maybe 1/2 you aren't getting a ton more damage.  And you can get those meter numbers just as easily from Point or Stopgap.  Same deal for having more meter for that DP combo.

As for meter for his HD combo..so what?  Unless you're extremely adept at the DP>j.QCB+C, run, DP loop, you need the corner to do your solid damage, solid damage that a lot of better anchors can do from anywhere without nearly as much execution.  Without it, you're best at using 2 meters for 700+ damage which is great...especially since he can do that yet again from the other two positions on the team.

As for not liking him as a point character, that's fair enough, but let me make my point.  Kensou works best when his options don't have that many answers.  For most characters, the more meter they gain, the more answers they have to Kensou's options, and more often than not the options Kensou gains still lose to the options he starts to lose.  With meter, Kensou's only changes in options become his EX FB giving him a slightly better FB game, and his Command Grab DM which is good, but still pathetically ranged limiting it to punishes really, and both ways, he can gain them quite easily from point position. 

In the end, for deciding whether a character is a better point or anchor (as pretty much any character can be a Stopgap) it goes like this.  Do your options and damage you gain with the extra amount of meter outweigh the answers your opponent can now gain to you?  In Kensou's case, the answer is honestly no.  His options don't get that much better, and his damage pretty much tops out at 2, maybe 3 meters, which again, he can get at point or stopgap.

Kensou CAN work as an anchor, but ONLY if your team really has absolutely no other answer at that position or if he needs to avoid matchups early.  However, considering to really become good at this game you need to be able to be adept with no less than 6 characters, that should never happen short of messing around or predicting matchup problems.

Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Jon Slayton on April 09, 2012, 05:38:32 PM
However, considering to really become good at this game you need to be able to be adept with no less than 6 characters,



What do you mean by that, out of curiosity?

I'll give you the stuff you said, but to me, Kensou's lame out really isn't just fireballs, I feel like most of his fighting is done at about the tip of his sweep range until he can get them to hold still for an A fireball, in which case he can run in and do mixups. Otherwise it's just looking for stuff to DP because IMO he has one of the best DPs in the game, since it's done from back, even if you can't get it out in time in response to short hops and stuff, you still block, so it's almost like an option select. That in itself eliminates a lot of the risk in going for a DP against jumpers. So if you eliminate their ability to jump, then they have to deal with Kensou's sweep, and most characters really don't have the pokes to compete with that, which leaves them to guessing short hops (and eating more DPs)

But yeah, A lot of characters DO have answers to fireballs, but there should be a kensou right behind the fireball when you throw one, and they may not have an answer to that when you're attacking in tandem with it. I don't think he's the kind of character you just throw fireballs with. Might as well play ash or saiki if you want to do that.

Anchor definitely isn't the optimized spot for him, but I think he can work it when he needs to. Second is probably... IMO, the best place for him. You'll have enough meter to do what you need to do but the opponent won't have so much of a surplus that it's a big issue for Kensou.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on April 09, 2012, 05:57:54 PM
What I'm saying is that, only knowing 3 characters in this game limits yourself big time.  With at least 6, you have a variety of characters to fit different matchups against different players.  If you've noticed, a lot of top players never stick to the same team composition.  Closest one is Bala, and even then he switches a lot.  It helps to have the extra characters to avoid problems in team composition if you need to avoid matchups.  Example, you know the opponent plays Athena, so you'll want to avoid that matchup as much as possible.  Since Athena usually takes Point/Stopgap, that would mean Kensou would have to take anchor.  However, you can instead switch one of your mains out to another that you have that can run a train on Athena early, and then have Kensou on 2nd.  That way, worst case scenario, Kensou DOES have to face Athena, but it will be on your terms.  And you can do that with a variety of opponents and playstyles.  Learning more characters tends to be a lot more effective as you learn the game, and more importantly learn how other players play.  You know, having things like extra point characters that you know can be a boon.

And I know zoning isn't limited to Fireballs, but since Kensou's normals are nowhere near as good as previous incarnations, he has to rely on the Shoto style of zoning a lot more.  His cr.D and his st.D are about his only actual zoning normals, and any that can avoid his cr.D can handle him pretty well, which is why I advocate him on point or second, but most especially point.  Because even if there ARE characters that can handle his sweep on point, the risk/reward won't get you annihilated.

Stopgap is a solid position, but one thing to keep in mind...EVERYONE can go in that position.  That's why it really isn't the BEST position for him just because for the threats that you can already deal with there, there just as many that can hurt you there.  So it's hard for me to say anyone's really the best there.  But it's definitely a great position for him if you're good at your meter management.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: jinxhand on April 09, 2012, 07:40:19 PM
I'm an advocate of having Kensou at point, pretty much because of all that was mentioned. Starting out first gives him more of a chance against bad matchups than anything else if that becomes the case in round 1.

As far as learning multiple characters go, I agree to a certain extent... If your team is generally well rounded, and you're truly on your game with each character, then yeah there's no reason to swap out... Sadly, Kensou isn't one of those well rounded characters, but I do feel that depending on how strong you truly are with him, he can pose a threat to even the worst matchup... I mean even Xiangfei could go against Nameless in 02UM, and he has way better tools than she does, plus she's like a 1 trick pony imo, but winning is still possible...

Yeah you have to be ridiculously tricky with Kensou to stand a chance if he's on 2nd... I just refuse to place him 3rd, because with my usual team (Kensou/Mature/Billy), both Mature and Billy do more damage than Kensou with full meter, and they work as better stopgaps and anchors. Mature could take point if need be though... Granted, with Billy I have to force the opponent in the corner, whereas Kensou can start anywhere with his combo like Mature, he still doesn't do enough compared to what Billy or Mature can do period...

Even in high level play, you'll see Kensou's thrown in first... Even in team battles, if someone knows Kensou, they're going in first... Not saying do what they do, it just so happens that they apparently feel the same way about him in terms of strength and capability...
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: BioBooster on July 14, 2012, 12:34:58 PM
Who wants frame data?

http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Sie_Kensou_(XIII)#Move_Metadata (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Sie_Kensou_(XIII)#Move_Metadata)
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on July 14, 2012, 08:29:33 PM
So EX Dive Bomb is +6 on block at best...that's pretty damn good.

Target Combo to st.D is a 1 frame link as I suspected.

Target Combo is -1 on block, have to watch out for that.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: choysauce on July 26, 2012, 01:57:28 AM
I've got this really cool, but gimmicky, super throw reset with kensou.

basically do anything into ex rekkas, then run up and command grab.
def easy to spot once you use it once on someone, but it sure makes them feel dumb when you hit them with it lolll.

Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: OCV|Gilgamesh on August 08, 2012, 10:37:37 PM
kupô

Any safe-jump setups ?

thanks
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: desmond_kof on August 09, 2012, 03:15:59 AM
kupô

Any safe-jump setups ?

thanks

Whoa dude, I saw you post this message in a few threads.

You can always try to practice and test safejumps yourself in training mode using the record and playback functions. Figure it out and have fun.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: marchefelix on August 15, 2012, 07:40:14 PM
Seems to me like Kensou's gotten lamer since the console release. All I see people do is rekkas to rdp + K (at least in HD mode). Are those two moves (and his fireball) really the only moves worth using?
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: marchefelix on November 30, 2012, 03:05:56 AM
Still waiting for an answer to the question above...

But now I'd like to ask: sometimes people Drive Cancel his rdp + K into qcb + P in the air, and sometimes they don't.

How do people pick their times when doing this?
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Sir Octopus (Saiki) on November 30, 2012, 09:10:45 AM
Canceling into dive from DP is really circumstancial, since you need to time the drive cancel to the final active frames if you anti-air the oponent with the DP so you don't wiff it.

If done from the back of the screen it's best to do drive cancel into dive, to follo up:

 Do  ;d (wiff) and empy cancel into DP  ;d.  ;dWill get you in closer so you can get the full damage, either  ;d DP or EX.

Another followup is after the dive, do rekka (wiff) rekka into qcf.K

If you do drive cancel into dive near the corner you can do the following.

After dive hits, do a rtk. ;a, fireball  ;a, Rekka, rekka x2, DP ( ;b or EX only), this combo is best done after the EX DP starter, it gives you better possition after the first dive

The best variation after this would be to do the same combo, but without the rtk.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Diavle on November 30, 2012, 05:05:32 PM
Seems to me like Kensou's gotten lamer since the console release. All I see people do is rekkas to rdp + K (at least in HD mode). Are those two moves (and his fireball) really the only moves worth using?

The air QCB+P is really good if you space it properly (thus making it safe on block) and it can really throw people off their rhythm, the EX version is excellent because its safe on block and leaves Kensou positive on hit (so he can do a ground combo after it).

The qcb+K is also good as a surprise move but risky because it has bad recovery. Its low invincible so you can beat out people who mash lows etc. Its also really good for reset mixups.

DP+P is pretty useless aside from doing some rather excellent chip damage, almost does a throw's worth if you do it completely. Of course, if you do it completely then its pretty much suicide on block so you have to make sure your opponent will be dead and can't guard cancel roll. The move isn't really unsafe if you do the right amount of hits but just isn't worth it considering the damage. The EX version does have some invincibility though.



Still waiting for an answer to the question above...

But now I'd like to ask: sometimes people Drive Cancel his rdp + K into qcb + P in the air, and sometimes they don't.

How do people pick their times when doing this?

Its depends on the player first and foremost, a lot just don't do it for some reason. The player Green Tea for example has a pretty solid Kensou but he almost never ever uses any meter with him, he just stacks it for his other characters.

Overall though its risky doing it off of an anti-air because the timing and spacing can be iffy so its easy to do the drive cancel and have the qcb+P whiff.

Its mostly used in combos started on the ground and especially in corner combos starting with a throw in the corner. There is no reason not to do it really, you can easily get really solid damage anywhere on the screen with just 1 power meter and drive. Should your opponent end up in the corner after the drive cancel then you can add in some extra hits via the fireball and rekkas if you want.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: marchefelix on December 08, 2012, 12:49:11 AM
KOF XIII Kensou Combo ~New~ (5 Bars - Full Drive - 1022 Damage) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x16dIqIXhlA#ws)
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Reiki.Kito on December 08, 2012, 01:19:32 AM
That's 4 bars in console, this is old KOF XIII arcade footage.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on March 16, 2013, 06:56:06 PM
Ok idk why nobody has posted this before but I upped HD+2 bars to 833 (you can get more and I'll mention that later). I'm gonna post it in numerical notation because I'm most comfortable with it and I'm posting from my phone, commas will indicate links, no comma means cancel >_<

There are two iterations, corner and midscreen. I'll start with corner.

2b 5b 5c, 5b 5c HD 5b 5c, 5b 5c 214a, 5b 5c 421d dc j.214a, j.214a 214a, 421b dc j.214a, 214a, 236a 236a, 236236ac

From starting positions you can do

2b 5b 5c, 5b 5c HD 5b 5c, 5b 5c 421d [[as above from 421d]].
If you're still not in the corner enough for j.214a to hit when tk'd, you can make the first drive cancel a j.214c for extra carry. This makes the tk much harder.

Starting it without the 2b you get more damage (so starting 5b 5c) but I'm getting old so need the extra time to prepare for the link mentally.

Similarly you can stick this tk j.214a into your corner bnb. It works off of any dp in the corner (needs to be j.214a off of a 421b to be able to get it).

I don't see anyone doing it and I've not seen it mentioned so I thought I'd put it for people to at least see if they're new to him.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: TrulyAmiracle on March 23, 2013, 01:40:55 PM
So if you use the A dive u can do get a TK'd a dive after that and then land a fireball into whatever?
Thats pretty much my same HD combo aside from the TK'd dives lol. I'll try it out tomorrow.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on April 15, 2013, 10:43:45 PM
You can get it off the C dive as well but its a lot harder, its ever so slighly easier to get it from starting positions than starting in the corner.
You don't even have to be accurate with the tk with the A version and do it quite high up!

Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: Sir Octopus (Saiki) on May 20, 2013, 03:30:07 AM
I've been trying this for a while since I'm trying to get a 3 stock kill combo . . . still no luck.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: mechanica on June 17, 2013, 06:52:51 AM
Corner, post rekkas: whiff st.A, hyperhop C. Fairly easy safe jump.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on June 30, 2013, 04:48:18 PM
I've been trying this for a while since I'm trying to get a 3 stock kill combo . . . still no luck.

Best I could get for 3 bar is here
Kensou HD combo scraps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-MiyuzoZew#ws)

Whether the first rdp.d replaced with an ex one in the second combo would push the second combo up high enough I really doubt. I probably should've finished that video.

Clearly you could throw in that much, much harder link before hd too so you are at one less hit and you have a heavy damage but I'd never pull that off in a match so don't care for it
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: KrsJin on December 22, 2015, 07:19:30 PM
Are there any notable players you can easily watch on Youtube? Or any recent matches with Kensou?
Title: Re: Sie Kensou (Console)
Post by: desmond_kof on December 26, 2015, 09:47:22 PM
Are there any notable players you can easily watch on Youtube? Or any recent matches with Kensou?

Check out Toshi's Kensou in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3UiE6wR6iM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3UiE6wR6iM)