Dream Cancel Forum

King of Fighters XIII => Character Discussion => Chin Gentsai => Topic started by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 06:42:01 AM

Title: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 06:42:01 AM
(http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af171/dreamcancel/kofxiii/chin.gif)

Notation
;a = Light Punch
;b = Light Kick
;c = Strong Punch
;d = Strong Kick

* = EX version possible

Command Normals
Uronkochu - ;df + ;d
 ∟Feint - Press ;d again or hold ;df + ;d

Nikiyaku - ;df + ;b. ;b *

Special Moves
Chokaroh - ;dn ;dn + ;b / ;d >
 ∟Standing A (Press ;a during Chokaroh)
 ∟Nikiyaku (Press ;b during Chokaroh)
 ∟Getsugasosho (Press ;c during Chokaroh)
 ∟Far D (Press ;d during Chokaroh)
 ∟Zanbantetsu (Press  ;dn during Chokaroh)
 ∟Press  ;b ;d to cancel stance

Zanbantetsu - ;dn ;dn +  ;a / ;c *
 ∟Getsugasosho (Press ;a / ;c during Zanbantetsu)
 ∟Press  ;up to stop crouching

Suiho -  ;dn ;db ;bk+ ;a / ;c *

Ryu Sogeki - ;dn ;db ;bk + ;b /  ;d *

Inshu - ;bk ;dn ;db + ;a / ;c (Drink up to five times.  Increases offense 10% per drink)

Kaitenteki Kutotsuken - ;bk ;db ;dn ;df ;fd + ;b / ;d *

Desperation Moves
Tohkuhitenhoh - ;dn ;df ;fd ;dn ;df ;fd + ;a / ;c *

Tetsuzankou - (Drunk)  ;dn ;db ;bk ;db ;dn ;df ;fd + ;a / ;c

Neomax
Suisou Gouran Enbu - ;dn ;df ;fd ;dn ;df ;fd + ;b ;d (ground or air, can be controlled the direction of the flames)

Chins Wiki entry (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chin_Gentsai_(XIII)).

Console changes:
- (shown in video) Chin can do a close C from his d,d+K stance
- (shown in video) The weak version of his counter now has the attack come out faster than before and can connect into his rolling attack (HCF+K). As a result of this the counterattack almost never whiffs anymore, and there are very few situations in which he cant follow up.
- (shown in video) He has less lag after his normal throw (both when in his stances as well as normally) and he can actually do followups in the corner.
- Chins defense no longer decreases when he has drink stocks
- The active time of his counters has been decreased. The normal version now has the active duration of the arcades EX version, and the EX versions is shorter still.
- His EX counter does less damage, reduced from 237 to 199.

Producer Yamamoto says: We added some interesting buffs to gameplay using d,d+K. Although parry time on hk+LK {Ex qcb+BD} has been reduced, the overall frames are shorter making it difficult to get punished. Drinking is easier to use compared to the arcade now that there is no defense penalty. Please have fun with the now trickier Chin.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 06:42:22 AM
Reserved
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: nilcam on December 06, 2011, 06:42:33 AM
Reserved
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Rex Dart on December 08, 2011, 11:10:37 AM
What are the best follow-ups to landing a corner throw?

My current combo (meter allowing) is:

qcb+P (DC) hcf+B, df+BD, df+B, B x ?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on December 08, 2011, 11:43:26 AM
What are the best follow-ups to landing a corner throw?

My current combo (meter allowing) is:

qcb+P (DC) hcf+B, df+BD, df+B, B x ?

More specifically: qcb A, [DC] hcf D, df BD, hcf D, df B~B, s.C
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on December 08, 2011, 07:21:37 PM
Did you guys see Bala's chin in action? He plays him quite differently from the ones thus far, more upfront rushdown and less tricks. In all the matches I saw he didn't even use df+D once iirc.

He was extremely effective.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Reiki.Kito on December 08, 2011, 11:07:57 PM
Might want to edit the OP since he doesn't lose defense when he drinks anymore.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Rex Dart on December 09, 2011, 03:28:05 AM
Might want to edit the OP since he doesn't lose defense when he drinks anymore.

Good catch! Fixed.

Did you guys see Bala's chin in action? He plays him quite differently from the ones thus far, more upfront rushdown and less tricks. In all the matches I saw he didn't even use df+D once iirc.

He was extremely effective.

Do you have a video? Perhaps we should start a thread for Chin videos.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on December 09, 2011, 03:32:53 AM
So in other words the Bala and Kane Video thread?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on December 09, 2011, 03:21:38 PM
Do you have a video? Perhaps we should start a thread for Chin videos.

http://www.twitch.tv/theanswerkof/b/302003096 (http://www.twitch.tv/theanswerkof/b/302003096)

There is actually a lot of solid play in there for a lot of characters,

Romance played probably the best Kensou I have seen thus far.

There is also some great Clark play by Bala,  and his Billy is the Billy to look at right now.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Sharnt on December 10, 2011, 04:25:43 PM
Quote
Tetsuzankou - (Drunk) qcf qcf

It's qcb hcf
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on December 10, 2011, 07:51:42 PM
Quote
Tetsuzankou - (Drunk) qcf qcf

It's qcb hcf

Thanks, fixed.

---

Best 2 stock HD damage I could muster for console is: 920, no drinking involved, can be done full screen:
j.C, s.C, d x2+K~D, BC, s.C, (qcb A, [HDC] hcf D) x2, df.B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, qcb A, [HDC] hcf D, df. B, hcf B, qcb C [HDC], qcf x2+BD (hold up) {every hit but last 1~2}, hcf B, df.B x2~B, s.C
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Quinho on December 15, 2011, 02:39:07 PM
Is it me or Chin doesn't work without stock/HD meter? I'm completely new to this game and I'm having trouble finding a perfect place for him in my team (Vice/King/Chin), should I put him in the third slot so he can take advantage of the meter from the previous characters, or he does just fine in the first slot of a team and I'm playing him completely wrong?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: johrjives on December 15, 2011, 05:42:51 PM
If I wanted to learn chin, would you recommend the trial combos or are the wiki/combos in these threads much better?

EDIT: wow, I think I found my new favorite character. Hes a machine that steamrolls you into the corner haha.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on December 16, 2011, 04:23:20 AM
Is it me or Chin doesn't work without stock/HD meter? I'm completely new to this game and I'm having trouble finding a perfect place for him in my team (Vice/King/Chin), should I put him in the third slot so he can take advantage of the meter from the previous characters, or he does just fine in the first slot of a team and I'm playing him completely wrong?

In the arcade version I would definitely he's best suited for 2nd or 3rd spot.  In the console, you can kinda compensate for the not having much meter by drinking instead.  Although he needs stocks too, he's very Drive gauge dependent.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: SwitchPlaya on December 17, 2011, 01:34:16 AM
Hey im finding it difficult to link Chin's hcf+K after his df+k is there timing involved with it??
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kensou77 on December 17, 2011, 10:25:06 AM
a random question. while i know it's not custom to taunt in a serious match, i noticed that chin's taunt gets him 4 drinks..... though it does get him stunned as well... is it useful? how useful or not?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on December 18, 2011, 02:00:38 PM
Hey im finding it difficult to link Chin's hcf+K after his df+k is there timing involved with it??

There's a very specific height and distance; basically you have to know the right combo to do it.  
Try something basically like s.C, df.B, qcb A, [DC] hcf B, (early cancel) df BD, hcf b, df.B, hcf B, df.B~B, s.C

a random question. while i know it's not custom to taunt in a serious match, i noticed that chin's taunt gets him 4 drinks..... though it does get him stunned as well... is it useful? how useful or not?

Not very useful as all.  Any new comer would have enough time to dash up to him and punish his taunt (the taunt cannot be cancelled either).
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: SwitchPlaya on December 21, 2011, 10:53:30 PM
Hey im finding it difficult to link Chin's hcf+K after his df+k is there timing involved with it??

There's a very specific height and distance; basically you have to know the right combo to do it.  
Try something basically like s.C, df.B, qcb A, [DC] hcf B, (early cancel) df BD, hcf b, df.B, hcf B, df.B~B, s.C

Thanks allot dude i am starting to understand the height now
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on December 22, 2011, 03:06:45 AM
Hey im finding it difficult to link Chin's hcf+K after his df+k is there timing involved with it??

There's a very specific height and distance; basically you have to know the right combo to do it. 
Try something basically like s.C, df.B, qcb A, [DC] hcf B, (early cancel) df BD, hcf b, df.B, hcf B, df.B~B, s.C

Thanks allot dude i am starting to understand the height now


NP, lemme know if there's anything else I can help you with.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai Videos
Post by: PaTrickC on December 25, 2011, 01:59:44 PM
hei what's the best team to put in chin ?? and a hohoho kof mass to all
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: SwitchPlaya on December 26, 2011, 10:53:53 PM
There is another issue I am having its match up worse what can chin do against characters with good air normals such as vice it seemed that vice can kill you with one jump in D which is really good.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on December 26, 2011, 11:34:41 PM
There is another issue I am having its match up worse what can chin do against characters with good air normals such as vice it seemed that vice can kill you with one jump in D which is really good.

Vice can't hit Chin with jump in D.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: SwitchPlaya on December 26, 2011, 11:39:08 PM
sorry my mistake I mean with jumping c
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on December 26, 2011, 11:40:05 PM
You can duck under jumpins and quickie punch or throw etc.

You can also use the invincibility on qcb+AC.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: SwitchPlaya on December 26, 2011, 11:46:23 PM
thanks allot works like a charm
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on December 27, 2011, 11:27:25 AM
hei what's the best team to put in chin ?? and a hohoho kof mass to all

With two other characters you're good with?  There's no correct answer to your question.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: SAB-CA on December 27, 2011, 09:33:03 PM
hei what's the best team to put in chin ?? and a hohoho kof mass to all

With two other characters you're good with?  There's no correct answer to your question.

While this is very true, I have to add, you want to make sure you don't pair him with characters that'll diminish how YOU play him, though you get a lot of leeway with order select and personal playstyle.

For example, I like using Drive Cancel combos with Chin, and occassionally his neomax for fun. I also REALLY like to a drive cancel with Hwa though. So ususally, if I have them both on a team, I have them at the ends, while I keep someone like Vice or Robert in the middle; someone who can build some meter between my 2 meter hogs.

But if I wanna use Chin as my secret weapon of confusion and damage, I'll set him in the back, behind a grappler and maybe Leona. I love using Leona as a final killer, buf it I placed her second on a team with Chin, I'll calm my use of her cancels and such, and mostly work with Instant overheads into V-Slasher, and save the drives for him.

//Not a real Answer// But in the END, we all know Chin is best with King (bartender) and Hwa Jai (Also drinks to buff himself), as team Intoxication!//Fake Answer END//

But really, just play who you like, and learn to adjust so that the characters get to be used in the ways you want them to be. It's up to YOU to make your team work!
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on December 27, 2011, 10:43:41 PM
I do believe I have seen the light.

Yesterday I was having really bad luck with connections so ended up spending a lot of time in practice while waiting for a decent matchup. At the end of the day I finally got two good sessions going and it all clicked, all the stuff I practice came out flowing. This character is so awesome, fun and brutal.

You know what else was awesome? I put Ralf 1st and Chin 2nd. Ralf builds meter like its no one's business and can dish out damage with using little. Kinda see them as the perfect pair. Chin actually helped me form Ralf's style of play for me, which has become centered around attacking and building meter at every opportunity. So Chin almost always comes in to the pleasure of lots of meter.

Chin's normals are so good, you can poke and poke some more. sC into qcb+A into (DC) hcf+K is so good, especially because its an option select. If they block the first two hits then the hcf+k simply doesn't come out. The advantage of using sC is that you can cancel it so at max range of the far standing version. For close range cr.B, s.A, sA can replace the sC and act as a hit confirm.

For some reason I keep forgetting to use his counters lol, I played a ton of matches and didn't remember to trigger them even once.

Qcb+AC is fantastic for getting ppl off of you. Does it have any special properties that would make it useful in combos?

I tried to limit my use of df+D simply because higher level players won't get on it much so I don't want to get in the habit of using it too much.

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on December 28, 2011, 02:02:14 PM
I do believe I have seen the light.

*Choir of angels sing*

Chin's normals are so good, you can poke and poke some more. sC into qcb+A into (DC) hcf+K is so good, especially because its an option select. If they block the first two hits then the hcf+k simply doesn't come out.

Careful as both qcb A or C are punishable on block.

The advantage of using sC is that you can cancel it so at max range of the far standing version. For close range cr.B, s.A, sA can replace the sC and act as a hit confirm.

When you starting mastering his cancels into his kick stance you won't even need to hit confirm as you can either hop cancel into more pressure or end it in a s.C. 

For some reason I keep forgetting to use his counters lol, I played a ton of matches and didn't remember to trigger them even once.

Might not be such a bad thing anymore, his active windows for his counters are so short now it gets me into more trouble than it's worth sometimes.

Qcb+AC is fantastic for getting ppl off of you. Does it have any special properties that would make it useful in combos?

Only time I use qcb AC in combos is using the free special cancel off the hcf BD for the extra 120 damage and of course juggling with hcf B -->...afterwards

I tried to limit my use of df+D simply because higher level players won't get on it much so I don't want to get in the habit of using it too much.

You're meant to use the mix ups with the overhead cancel (hold D) for d.B combos or throw combos!
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on December 29, 2011, 03:03:45 PM
My win rate was pretty good before but its even better now with the Ralf/Chin duo. I say duo because thanks to these two I barely get to use my third character. Fighting Chin seems to be pretty disheartening, a few combos and ppl leave often. And I now fully realize why you said you are grateful for fireball whores with him in that zoning thread, I now look forward to them as well. Hcf+BD is so good, went straight through Joe's hurricane for a photo finish.

*Choir of angels sing*

*reads holy Chin wiki scriptures*

Careful as both qcb A or C are punishable on block.

Yeah, found that out the hard way. How about the first kick of df+B? Is that very punishable? Tried it in practice and it didn't seem to be at too much of a disadvantage on block.

Further on hit confirms, in the wiki thread you posted sC, sC combos, is that with the use of the kick stance? I tried it otherwise and couldn't do it, only worked by canceling the first C into the kick stance and then doing the second C. Also kind of did a cheap shortcut by doing d.C, d.D, sC so you don't need to tap twice for the kick stance.

Also got a simple HD loop going via hcf+K, df+B, df+B, qcb+P. Simple and does about 50% damage with no meter. Will try learning something more juicy soon. Though I don't know if its worth going into HD with him, unless you are left with very little or no meter and have full drive.

Quote
When you starting mastering his cancels into his kick stance you won't even need to hit confirm as you can either hop cancel into more pressure or end it in a s.C.

Didn't think of using his kick stance like Ramon's back step cancel move, will experiment with it in practice when I get home.  

Quote
Might not be such a bad thing anymore, his active windows for his counters are so short now it gets me into more trouble than it's worth sometimes.

After getting kicked in the face a few times I see what you mean. Still plan to use them though, the damage is tempting and its good to keep the opponent on his/her toes I think (kinda like how you think twice about rushing in on someone who has access to a good dp).

Only time I use qcb AC in combos is using the free special cancel off the hcf BD for the extra 120 damage and of course juggling with hcf B -->...afterwards

Thanks, gonna try those.

Quote
You're meant to use the mix ups with the overhead cancel (hold D) for d.B combos or throw combos!

Lol, will do sir.

df+D into three quickie punch reps into more pain feels so good.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on December 30, 2011, 06:05:24 AM
My win rate was pretty good before but its even better now with the Ralf/Chin duo. I say duo because thanks to these two I barely get to use my third character.

You use two of my three characters, cool.

Fighting Chin seems to be pretty disheartening, a few combos and ppl leave often. And I now fully realize why you said you are grateful for fireball whores with him in that zoning thread, I now look forward to them as well. Hcf+BD is so good, went straight through Joe's hurricane for a photo finish.

Yeah lol, that move IS good.  Wish it had startup invincibility as well but I suppose that's asking too much.

Further on hit confirms, in the wiki thread you posted sC, sC combos, is that with the use of the kick stance? I tried it otherwise and couldn't do it, only worked by canceling the first C into the kick stance and then doing the second C. Also kind of did a cheap shortcut by doing d.C, d.D, sC so you don't need to tap twice for the kick stance.

Yeah, sorry I should have clarified, I just wrote it shorthand for myself really.  s.C --> d x2+K~C is what I mean by s.C, s.C.

After getting kicked in the face a few times I see what you mean. Still plan to use them though, the damage is tempting and its good to keep the opponent on his/her toes I think (kinda like how you think twice about rushing in on someone who has access to a good dp).

It still leads to good damage, especially if you can time the hcf B after the B counter or hit confirm the D counter for a hcf BD combo.

Lol, will do sir.

df+D into three quickie punch reps into more pain feels so good.

I'm currently working on a combo string I saw the other day: df.D~C (QuikiePunches), (d x2+K~C) x2, df.B/hcf BD ...

More challenging but definitely worth the damage.  If done correctly, you can actually do two QP before the two s.Cs.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on December 30, 2011, 03:26:42 PM
You use two of my three characters, cool.

Wait, you switched to Ralf? Who did you drop? Duolon?

I actually wanted to suggest Ralf to you but didn't want to be nosey.

Yeah lol, that move IS good.  Wish it had startup invincibility as well but I suppose that's asking too much.

Yeah, lets just be grateful its as good as it is now.

Have you experimented with it via air HD bypass? I was messing with it in practice and I think it has potential, the ex version I mean.

You can activate it pretty high off the ground and you immediately see the blue ex effect with Chin auto dashing to the ground to immediately go into the move. I recorded Kyo into throwing fireballs and it went right through it and opened the window for an HD combo right after it connected. So, theoretically, if you see a move coming you can cut your jump short and go straight into HD via HCF+BD's invincibility. Wonder if it can be used to bait people into doing something via seemingly random jumps.

Yeah, sorry I should have clarified, I just wrote it shorthand for myself really.  s.C --> d x2+K~C is what I mean by s.C, s.C.

Seems like its another occasion I may have to swich to the d-pad for. I was already doing it for the df+B kicks and this seems to need it as well since I can't double tap consistently on the analog stick. Its kinda funny and fun in that during combo's with Chin I'm constantly switching between the dpad and analog stick for move motions (analog for circular motions and dpad for df+B etc).

Hope I can get it down b/c I really like this sC, sC.

I'm currently working on a combo string I saw the other day: df.D~C (QuikiePunches), (d x2+K~C) x2, df.B/hcf BD ...

More challenging but definitely worth the damage.  If done correctly, you can actually do two QP before the two s.Cs.

Sounds interesting but tough, will try it out (though I doubt I'll land it).

On a sidenote I'm now using Chin "Disney's Aladdin" Gentsai, it made so much sense I couldn't resist.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on December 31, 2011, 01:25:05 PM
Wait, you switched to Ralf? Who did you drop? Duolon?

I actually wanted to suggest Ralf to you but didn't want to be nosey.

Getting off topic, but I guess I misunderstood you; I use Duo Lon and Chin.

Have you experimented with it via air HD bypass? I was messing with it in practice and I think it has potential, the ex version I mean.

I've never thought of it being used that way, I'll play around with that!

I was already doing it for the df+B kicks and this seems to need it as well since I can't double tap consistently on the analog stick.

Just double checking and you probably know this, once you're in the kick stance, you just press B and it does his df.B.  So in the corner if I'm doing the df.B juggles you just tap B x N.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on December 31, 2011, 10:08:55 PM
Just double checking and you probably know this, once you're in the kick stance, you just press B and it does his df.B.  So in the corner if I'm doing the df.B juggles you just tap B x N.

Yep, I know, I just switch to the dpad to make sure I land it.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: PaTrickC on January 03, 2012, 04:52:37 AM
my dream team? K' , Kyo , ;c hin!

Hope they will find  ;c hin's better half this year! HNY:Ddd
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: gazette on February 29, 2012, 10:22:56 PM
Not sure if I can post it here, need some advice from Chin masters. I understand Chin fighting style is very different from his past and he has many stances as well, which allow him to have more options to fight the opponent.

I do humbly ask how to fight Chin? I'm clueless and have almost no matchup experience against this drunken master.  I was playing online with a decent guy who anchor Chin as his main. I had no problem with his 1st and 2nd characters most of the time until he unleash this beast with a full HD bar and almost 4 bars to begin with most of the time. Now this is where the real fight starts for me. I don't have any idea what should I do to counter or bait any of his unsafe move. All I can say is Chin did most of the work for him. Kudos to his Chin too.

PS: I understand this is a Chin thread, but I would want to learn some matchups too. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on March 01, 2012, 03:38:57 AM
Not sure if I can post it here, need some advice from Chin masters. I understand Chin fighting style is very different from his past and he has many stances as well, which allow him to have more options to fight the opponent.

I do humbly ask how to fight Chin? I'm clueless and have almost no matchup experience against this drunken master.  I was playing online with a decent guy who anchor Chin as his main. I had no problem with his 1st and 2nd characters most of the time until he unleash this beast with a full HD bar and almost 4 bars to begin with most of the time. Now this is where the real fight starts for me. I don't have any idea what should I do to counter or bait any of his unsafe move. All I can say is Chin did most of the work for him. Kudos to his Chin too.

PS: I understand this is a Chin thread, but I would want to learn some matchups too. Thanks in advance.

I'm no Chin master by any means but I do main Chin so I'll throw in my two cents.

First of all, what characters are you using?

Second of all, is the Chin user doing HD combos on you because if he is--does not truly understand how he's meant to be played.  

Overall, Chin is more meter efficient (and practical) with 1 drive + several stocks and seeing that it's not easy to land a jump in with him for HD combos PLUS you can start combos with counters and Ex hcf K (which do NOT allow you to go into HD since they're in a juggled state)--he's really trolling you if that's the case.

It's been mentioned many times thruout this thread and the arcade thread that like everyone else, Chin's very punishable.  

1) His overhead can be punished after being block before the Quickie Punches come up with a fast reversal, 1-frame grab, or even a regular roll.
2) hcf K is vulnerable to low hits; Ex version is not (full invincibility during roll)
3) Ex hcf K and Ex qcb P is -1 (at least it was in the arcade) so those two are the ones you have to pay attention to, the others are pretty punishable.
4) Even if the Chin user does the overhead feint you have time to block high (which of course you won't be blocking because he canceled the overhead) and then block low if he goes for a low setup.
5) His counter games have severely been weakened since the arcade.  B counter counters high to mid hits and most specials (if not all) for that matter.  D counter counters low hits so knowing that just mix up your hits.  Ex counter does both but the active windows is stupidly short.
6) Never let him drink.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on March 12, 2012, 09:16:15 PM
Still sporting this character regularly, easily one of my faves in the entire cast (which I use most of). Now he's one of the characters I delegate to anchor to hold the fort while the first 2 spots are taken up by newer characters I'm learning.

His overall playstyle is just so fun and fresh. The usual pattern is me running a mixup and landing with a sweet ex/dc combo but sometimes the opponent is extra careful and all jumpy and I have to improvise and land damage from unorthodox situations. Thats when the character becomes damn fun to play and the drive cancel system really shines.

Getting great milage out of his counters. Are they 1 frame? They sure as heck seem to start up instantly, in fact I stick em in between my opponent's block strings so if it isn't a true string (like Leona's sB into fwd+B or inbetween the two kicks of Kyo's qcf+K) then you get a free counter and combo, similar to what people do with grapplers and their 1-frame grabs. I find the normal counters to be rather lenient but have to approach the ex counter with a parry timing mentality, which makes sense given the damage it awards.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on March 15, 2012, 08:53:55 PM
Yeah I still play Chin every match ;)

Getting great milage out of his counters. Are they 1 frame? They sure as heck seem to start up instantly, in fact I stick em in between my opponent's block strings so if it isn't a true string (like Leona's sB into fwd+B or inbetween the two kicks of Kyo's qcf+K) then you get a free counter and combo, similar to what people do with grapplers and their 1-frame grabs. I find the normal counters to be rather lenient but have to approach the ex counter with a parry timing mentality, which makes sense given the damage it awards.

If not 1 frame at the most 2 or something, I definitely treat it like a 1 frame.  UPDATE Chin's data is out (I'll update it in a bit) and yes it's 1 frame.  If you find the normal counters lenient then you must think the arcade version counters were forever and a day.

On a unrelated note, I just found out the other day that although Chin's stance fwd/bck+C Command normal throw can be tech'd (boo), it's treated like a command throw when you have Chin trying to command normal throw a 1 frame grab as well--they'll both miss each other...cool beans.

---

I'm currently working on a combo string I saw the other day: df.D~C (QuickiePunches), (d x2+K~C) x2, df.B/hcf BD ...

More challenging but definitely worth the damage.  If done correctly, you can actually do two QP before the two s.Cs.

FWIW, I finally got around practicing the aforementioned starter.  So: Overhead --> QP --> s.C x2... is definitely worth the extra damage but due to scaling sadly Overhead --> QP x2 --> s.C x2... does less damage.  It looks cool but it's not worth the extra difficulty.

midscreen: df.D~C, (d x2+K~C) x2, hcf BD, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.B~B, s.C - 554
fullscreen variant: df.D~C, (d x2+K~C) x2, hcf BD, hcf B, df B, qcb A, [DC] hcf D, df.B x3, s.C - 524

On the second (d x2+K~C) you can exchange that for d x2+BD --> Far C for 10 extra damage.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on March 21, 2012, 01:54:59 PM
Sweet, can't wait to see that frame data.

I think the startup for the counter is about as or more lenient than Rock Howard's. If the ones in the arcade were way more lenient then oh man, I would have done them all day. The counters are great though, the B counter is my fave. Works great generally and is also an excellent answer to cross-ups. Why is crouching A considered a low hit though? I'm fairly cetain I saw it stuff my B counter. D counter hasn't been too useful so far. Do you have any problems following up after an ex counter? My HCF+B often misses and the opponent just crumples to the ground. Maybe doing it too late I guess.

I really like that combo you posted, I went straight into EX df+BD after the QPs instead and did the DC at the end. Yours is more front loaded on heavy hits though which leads to better damage. Gonna steal it, thanks.

What do you like to do after a blocked df+D btw?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on March 22, 2012, 11:46:24 AM
Sweet, can't wait to see that frame data.

Sorry being procrastinating HARD...urm I mean busy at work :)

I think the startup for the counter is about as or more lenient than Rock Howard's. If the ones in the arcade were way more lenient then oh man, I would have done them all day.

They were too good.  I was waaaaay too over reliant on them because they were that good.  Since console I've learned Chin a lot more thoroughly now.  Ex counter was stupid good although I always say they should a) either give back the amount of active frames for his Ex counter that they had in the arcade (which was the same duration as the current B counter) or b) keep the damage they had in the arcade for his Ex counter (260 vs 199 over four scaled hits).  

I find myself using his Ex qcb P more now even though it's only 120 damage but it's hits only once and hence less scaling b) gives less meter to the opponent (I need to double check but I'm pretty sure) and c) safer in recovery (-1) and from empty hops (expecting a counter).  The catch is you pretty much need to use a drive to make the move worthwhile.

The counters are great though, the B counter is my fave. Works great generally and is also an excellent answer to cross-ups. Why is crouching A considered a low hit though? I'm fairly cetain I saw it stuff my B counter. D counter hasn't been too useful so far.

Well if Chin was taller, I guarantee all d.A would be low counters but as he stands right now (see what I did there), standard d.As all hit his gut level lol.

Do you have any problems following up after an ex counter? My HCF+B often misses and the opponent just crumples to the ground. Maybe doing it too late I guess.
 

You're just doing it too late.  Cancel on the fourth hit (the animation is his s.CD) and you're good.   If anything, I tend to miss his qcb D the most, then his qcb B, then Ex qcb K I miss the least.   Especially since I like to do Ex hcf K afterwards you have to time it correctly.

I really like that combo you posted, I went straight into EX df+BD after the QPs instead and did the DC at the end. Yours is more front loaded on heavy hits though which leads to better damage. Gonna steal it, thanks.

Yeah do it and there's not turning back.  The damage difference is significant and most Chin players I've seen from MastaCJ to Fox, do not use that variation if I recall and they're missing out on big damage.

What do you like to do after a blocked df+D btw?

Most of the SoCal players won't let me continue from that point.  They'll either throw me, normal roll after it, or do a fast reversal.  I would say my success rate of a blockstring after the overhead is less than 50% now.

To answer you question I'd do one set of QP, then I'd cancel into s.C and watch opponent to see what they do.  What I really should be doing however is canceling that s.C into d x2+BD to cancel my recovery.


---

Do me a favor and goto this thread (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=2019.0) and tell them you confirmed my combo for me:

1 stock, 1 drive
Midscreen: j.C, s.C, Far C, hcf BD, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.B~B, s.C - 603

In order to get the s.C into Far C to connect: s.C, d x2+BD, press C again.  
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on March 23, 2012, 03:05:38 AM
Sorry being procrastinating HARD...urm I mean busy at work :)

Heh, doubt you're as bad as me when it comes to procrastinating.

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They were too good.  I was waaaaay too over reliant on them because they were that good.  Since console I've learned Chin a lot more thoroughly now.  Ex counter was stupid good although I always say they should a) either give back the amount of active frames for his Ex counter that they had in the arcade (which was the same duration as the current B counter) or b) keep the damage they had in the arcade for his Ex counter (260 vs 199 over four scaled hits).  

I find myself using his Ex qcb P more now even though it's only 120 damage but it's hits only once and hence less scaling b) gives less meter to the opponent (I need to double check but I'm pretty sure) and c) safer in recovery (-1) and from empty hops (expecting a counter).  The catch is you pretty much need to use a drive to make the move worthwhile.

Nerfing a poor old man for no reason, such discrimination. At least I didn't have a taste of that goodness so ain't too disappointed. I can see why they did it though, since they aren't just counters, like most other such moves in games, but rather full on combo starters.

Yeah I use the EX qcb+P often as well, it pretty much acts like an invincible DP. You do need DC midscreen but at least it leaves the opponent in a juggle state in the corner (or close to it) so you are guaranteed a combo without drive.


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Well if Chin was taller, I guarantee all d.A would be low counters but as he stands right now (see what I did there), standard d.As all hit his gut level lol.

Cheap shot hehe but yeah I was very surprised. I'm used to MOTW and 3rd Strike where you only need to low counter/parry attacks that need to be blocked low.

 
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You're just doing it too late.  Cancel on the fourth hit (the animation is his s.CD) and you're good.   If anything, I tend to miss his qcb D the most, then his qcb B, then Ex qcb K I miss the least.   Especially since I like to do Ex hcf K afterwards you have to time it correctly.

I uhh... didn't know you had to cancel the last hit lol, always waited for the counter attack animation to finish before inputting hcf+K. Problem solved.

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To answer you question I'd do one set of QP, then I'd cancel into s.C and watch opponent to see what they do.  What I really should be doing however is canceling that s.C into d x2+BD to cancel my recovery.

Didn't know you could get an instant cancel with dwn x2+BD, damn, SNK really went the extra mile in this game. So much thought has gone into this character. Still have to get used to the kick stance cancelling but think I'll stick to this strategy.

Yeah MastaCJ and that french player and another one whose name I can't remember all put him as anchor and focus on landing an HD combo, which I think is the wrong way to approach the character.


Quote
Do me a favor and goto this thread (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=2019.0) and tell them you confirmed my combo for me:

1 stock, 1 drive
Midscreen: j.C, s.C, Far C, hcf BD, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.B~B, s.C - 603

In order to get the s.C into Far C to connect: s.C, d x2+BD, press C again.  


Done.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on March 23, 2012, 10:20:14 AM
I uhh... didn't know you had to cancel the last hit lol, always waited for the counter attack animation to finish before inputting hcf+K. Problem solved.

YO!  Adding difficulty for yourself eh?  Is it even possible to combo without canceling?

I find myself using his Ex qcb P more now even though it's only 120 damage but it's hits only once and hence less scaling b) gives less meter to the opponent (I need to double check but I'm pretty sure)  

Check.

Didn't know you could get an instant cancel with dwn x2+BD, damn, SNK really went the extra mile in this game. So much thought has gone into this character. Still have to get used to the kick stance cancelling but think I'll stick to this strategy.

Yeah it's not saying much because XIII isn't known for it's crazy depth compared to some older ones, but he's easily the most technical of the small roster.

Yeah MastaCJ and that french player and another one whose name I can't remember all put him as anchor and focus on landing an HD combo, which I think is the wrong way to approach the character.

Yeah I agree, I think they're still strong Chin players but they can do so much better.  MastaCJ uses pad so his d x2+K~C cancels are easier IMO but I guess to each and his own.  He does use the QP into s.C into HD quite consistently so props to him.  Fox overall uses the d x2+BD cancels better than MastaCJ.

I play him totally different but trying to incorporate some of their gameplay.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on March 23, 2012, 02:34:13 PM
Do you know if canceling a QP via dwnx2 BD on block leaves you at a frame advantage? Like if I cancel and immediately go into an sC or sA or cr.B, will it be a true block string?

YO!  Adding difficulty for yourself eh?  Is it even possible to combo without canceling?

Yeah hehe, timing is tight though (easier in the corner).

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Yeah it's not saying much because XIII isn't known for it's crazy depth compared to some older ones, but he's easily the most technical of the small roster.

What? I think its easily the deepest one, I can barely even watch match vids for the previous ones these days.

Its the type of fighter where ppl will be discovering things for years to come imo.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on March 23, 2012, 09:45:29 PM
Do you know if canceling a QP via dwnx2 BD on block leaves you at a frame advantage? Like if I cancel and immediately go into an sC or sA or cr.B, will it be a true block string?
 

Yup, supposedly.

What? I think its easily the deepest one, I can barely even watch match vids for the previous ones these days.

Its the type of fighter where ppl will be discovering things for years to come imo.

Oops I meant the execution isn't has hard as the older ones.  You're right, this game has variety and depth.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: topdawg122 on March 23, 2012, 10:50:44 PM
Lots of great info here guys. I was wondering when do you guys usually get an opportunity to take a drink during a match for more damage??
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on March 23, 2012, 11:35:20 PM
Lots of great info here guys. I was wondering when do you guys usually get an opportunity to take a drink during a match for more damage??

There's a lot opportunity actually, and it works well with his counters mind games as well--just be very careful if your opponent catches on to your drinking habits.

The two easiest ways to land drinks are after j.CDs and if you're mid screen, 90% of the time you can sneak 2 drinks in and after his qcb P. 

After drinking it prompts the opponent to come in to attack you and that's when you land carefully timed counter and then you can drink again.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: topdawg122 on March 28, 2012, 06:39:44 AM
Lots of great info here guys. I was wondering when do you guys usually get an opportunity to take a drink during a match for more damage??

There's a lot opportunity actually, and it works well with his counters mind games as well--just be very careful if your opponent catches on to your drinking habits.

The two easiest ways to land drinks are after j.CDs and if you're mid screen, 90% of the time you can sneak 2 drinks in and after his qcb P. 

After drinking it prompts the opponent to come in to attack you and that's when you land carefully timed counter and then you can drink again.

Thanks for the info. I've seen your Chin man, you're really good.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on March 30, 2012, 06:04:36 PM
Watched yesterday's level up stream and was so excited that I would see some Chin action but man, Mr. KOF just had to ruin the party.

Kane, were you trolling or do you always take two drinks like that after a knockdown? Seemed to be extremely risky and let the opponent get an advantage in terms of positioning/pressure.

I'd like to say more about the matches but all I remember is Kim zipping all over the screen lol.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on March 31, 2012, 08:58:12 AM
Watched yesterday's level up stream and was so excited that I would see some Chin action but man, Mr. KOF just had to ruin the party.

Kane, were you trolling or do you always take two drinks like that after a knockdown? Seemed to be extremely risky and let the opponent get an advantage in terms of positioning/pressure.

I'd like to say more about the matches but all I remember is Kim zipping all over the screen lol.

Hah, Mr Kof is crazy.  I learn a lot when I lose to him.

Yeah, I sneak in drinks and try to bait people to try to punish my drinking problem I have lol.  I'll do better next time.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on March 31, 2012, 07:03:12 PM
Ah, I'll try that too. I don't think I drink enough to be honest.

Looking forward to more of your matches, needs me some inspiration. Don't think its a good idea to put Chin anchor though, just from a psychological standpoint I think a player will do better with a character like him in 1st or 2nd position.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on March 31, 2012, 09:03:55 PM
Ah, I'll try that too. I don't think I drink enough to be honest.

Looking forward to more of your matches, needs me some inspiration. Don't think its a good idea to put Chin anchor though, just from a psychological standpoint I think a player will do better with a character like him in 1st or 2nd position.

I play him 3rd or 2nd 90% of the time.  If I play him first you know he's going to get his drink on.  I might just be a tad meter heavy with him but certainly does a lot of damage with just 1 drive and stock from basically anywhere; too good to pass up.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on March 31, 2012, 09:14:00 PM
I play him 3rd or 2nd 90% of the time.  If I play him first you know he's going to get his drink on.  I might just be a tad meter heavy with him but certainly does a lot of damage with just 1 drive and stock from basically anywhere; too good to pass up.

Fair enough.

Not a fan of over-reliance on meter though and often run my characters in every position, trying to make sure I can play them with and without meter.

Like you said, Chin needs little meter to do big damage so 1st and 2nd is where I use him most. The fact that he isn't anchor puts my mind at ease and lets me play in a more carefree manner, which I find to be a huge plus.

His style of play and combos uses meter but at the same time builds meter really well as well so characters that come after him often have some to work with.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on April 03, 2012, 12:03:55 AM
I play him 3rd or 2nd 90% of the time.  If I play him first you know he's going to get his drink on.  I might just be a tad meter heavy with him but certainly does a lot of damage with just 1 drive and stock from basically anywhere; too good to pass up.

Fair enough.

Not a fan of over-reliance on meter though and often run my characters in every position, trying to make sure I can play them with and without meter.

Like you said, Chin needs little meter to do big damage so 1st and 2nd is where I use him most. The fact that he isn't anchor puts my mind at ease and lets me play in a more carefree manner, which I find to be a huge plus.

His style of play and combos uses meter but at the same time builds meter really well as well so characters that come after him often have some to work with.


You know you got me thinking, especially after some tourney experience I might just move him to the first position for 2 reasons:  a) it forces me not to fall back on too much Ex meter spam b) 1st position is less susceptible a one-mistake-eat-full-HD-combo situation.  I'll run him first for this Thursday's #TheRunBack and see how it goes.

Updated his wiki a little today: http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chin_Gentsai_(XIII) (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chin_Gentsai_(XIII))

Take a gander and how point out anything I missed out or any constructive suggestions in general.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on April 03, 2012, 12:57:05 PM
Ok I filled him his frame data as well.

http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chin_Gentsai_(XIII)#Move_Metadata
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on April 04, 2012, 01:44:50 AM
Kane, if you don't mind, I added a section for Character Matchups in Chin's wiki that you can fill at your leisure.  Same with Duo Lon...and pretty much everyone.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on April 04, 2012, 12:19:20 PM
Kane, if you don't mind, I added a section for Character Matchups in Chin's wiki that you can fill at your leisure.  Same with Duo Lon...and pretty much everyone.

You're welcome to add it but I dunno who's going to fill everything up as that's a lot of work lol.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: desmond_kof on April 04, 2012, 02:29:24 PM
Kane, if you don't mind, I added a section for Character Matchups in Chin's wiki that you can fill at your leisure.  Same with Duo Lon...and pretty much everyone.

You're welcome to add it but I dunno who's going to fill everything up as that's a lot of work lol.

Yeah, I will probably just add some small stuff...Maybe like what moves can be punished, or certain moves to look out for.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on April 04, 2012, 03:17:20 PM
You know you got me thinking, especially after some tourney experience I might just move him to the first position for 2 reasons:  a) it forces me not to fall back on too much Ex meter spam b) 1st position is less susceptible a one-mistake-eat-full-HD-combo situation.  I'll run him first for this Thursday's #TheRunBack and see how it goes.

Yeah I've done it myself recently and to great success. Looking forward to your performance, if nothing else I'm sure you will apprecaite the character in a new way.

Quote
Updated his wiki a little today: http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chin_Gentsai_(XIII) (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chin_Gentsai_(XIII))

Take a gander and how point out anything I missed out or any constructive suggestions in general.

Had a quick look, here's some little stuff (sorry if its in there and I missed/misread it) you may or may not want to add/edit/consider:

- The move description for the drinking at the top of the page still has the arcade info (mentions decrease in defense for every drink taken).
- The Non-Drive combo section has a DC combo under 1 bar.
- May want to stress ducking as a very viable anti-air and defense tool. Its not even funny how many things you can duck under and punish, from normals to jumpins and specials. Even if they start jumping in deep or whatever you are still at an advantage since you can just go straight into a counter, or escape via HCF+K.
- HCF+D should be pointed to as the anti-mid fireball one. The B version isn't consistent, haven't tried it against all characters but it doesn't go under Athena's fireballs for sure.
- Wouldn't say low fireballs are a big problem for him, thanks to B counter and kick stance hopping. With kick stance hopping you don't even have to give up position to avoid fireballs since you can just hop into the corner and still avoid the fireball.
- Df+B is anti-low mashers. I noticed this during a match by mistake and went into practice to test. Set Iori to mash cr.Bs and Df+B beat them clean every time.
- Mention the  respectable amount of invincibility on EX QCB+P and it being Chin's best, and very safe, "get-off me" move. It also leaves the opponent in a free juggle state if done in the corner.
- B counter being free cancleable into anything after a fireball counter.
- The crazy amount of invincibility on QCB HCF+C super.
- In your analysis you mention Chin as having average damage output at best, I would have to disagree. His combos do too much damage for that to be true, especially for the amount of meter they use.

Thanks for the frame data, yeah I think I'm gonna start/stop abusing certain moves lol.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on April 04, 2012, 09:12:09 PM

Had a quick look, here's some little stuff (sorry if its in there and I missed/misread it) you may or may not want to add/edit/consider:

- The move description for the drinking at the top of the page still has the arcade info (mentions decrease in defense for every drink taken).
- The Non-Drive combo section has a DC combo under 1 bar.
- May want to stress ducking as a very viable anti-air and defense tool. Its not even funny how many things you can duck under and punish, from normals to jumpins and specials. Even if they start jumping in deep or whatever you are still at an advantage since you can just go straight into a counter, or escape via HCF+K.
- HCF+D should be pointed to as the anti-mid fireball one. The B version isn't consistent, haven't tried it against all characters but it doesn't go under Athena's fireballs for sure.
- Wouldn't say low fireballs are a big problem for him, thanks to B counter and kick stance hopping. With kick stance hopping you don't even have to give up position to avoid fireballs since you can just hop into the corner and still avoid the fireball.
- Df+B is anti-low mashers. I noticed this during a match by mistake and went into practice to test. Set Iori to mash cr.Bs and Df+B beat them clean every time.
- Mention the  respectable amount of invincibility on EX QCB+P and it being Chin's best, and very safe, "get-off me" move. It also leaves the opponent in a free juggle state if done in the corner.
- B counter being free cancleable into anything after a fireball counter.
- The crazy amount of invincibility on QCB HCF+C super.
- In your analysis you mention Chin as having average damage output at best, I would have to disagree. His combos do too much damage for that to be true, especially for the amount of meter they use.

Thanks for the frame data, yeah I think I'm gonna start/stop abusing certain moves lol.

This is precisely the type of list I needed, I'll go fix the changes :)

-First one I can't fix, I think Nilcam or Des point it up there so they have to fix it.
-Removed the drive cancel combo, thanks!
-I actually do use that d x2+P as an anti air but the timing of it is pretty strict, the opponent has to land a non-deep hit--Don't forget low hits (certain jump attacks) still can hit him when he's in the crouching stance.  Usually, I just cancel into B counter unless I'm 100% certain I can duck it.  I'll add it in.
-I just tested it out.  I can't believe after 22 months of playing Chin, I never realized I've been using the hcf D everytime I go under fireballs, it must be a distance kinda thing and I never try for it when I'm close.  I cannot recall getting hit by it ever (doing hcf B) under a fireball--but you're right, for Athena's Psycho Ball at least, only the D version goes thru (and Ex of course).  Strange.
-It's true, df.B is invulnerable to lows but you're pretty vulnerable if they do block it and most ppl's d.Bs don't stay out there forever--have to be spamming it forever to get hit.  Also the df.B is now -3 vs -2 like console (meaning, Ryo's d.C, Andy's s.C, Iori's s.C, and Kyo's s.C can punish you.  Not to mention you can be normal thrown at that distance by everyone.  
-Same holds true for his kick stance, d x2+K, it's invulnerable to low fireballs but maybe because Reynald's just Reynald but once I hop over one or even ground fireballs, he'll dash in for some sort of punish and that's when I have to start guessing.  Also, just being in that state is kinda vulnerable for obvious reason.  I can't count how many times I wanted to cancel into hcf K from that stance I back step instead when I'm doing the back motion and thus eat a fireball or worse, a DM.  Just use it cautiously.
-Agreed, I cannot overstate how good his Ex qcb+P is.  Full invincibility, can be drivecanceled for a longer combo, and it's -1 on block.  Just don't get too spam happy otherwise a vertical jump can punish it easily as well.
-What do you mean about the B counter, it's been free cancelable into anything even if it's not a fireball.  So is the D counter.  The only thing that's changed it seems like you cannot keep canceling your cancel into qcb B--in the arcade you could deal with Joe's Ex hcf+P but just canceling qcb B into another qcb B etc.
-qcb~hcf C has a lot of invincibility but it's also super slow with 18 frames of startup minus the freeze time.  I have yet to successfully use it as a reversal on wake up but I guess I'll keep trying.
-Regarding the damage output, I wrote it a long time ago.  Since then, I'll revise it and say he does above average.

I'll make the changes in a bit.

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on April 05, 2012, 03:01:14 PM
-I just tested it out.  I can't believe after 22 months of playing Chin, I never realized I've been using the hcf D everytime I go under fireballs, it must be a distance kinda thing and I never try for it when I'm close.  I cannot recall getting hit by it ever (doing hcf B) under a fireball--but you're right, for Athena's Psycho Ball at least, only the D version goes thru (and Ex of course).  Strange.

Yeah it was the reason I wasn't confident with the move until now. I thought these were supposed to go under fireballs but got hit quite a few times. Figured maybe I was doing them too late and went into practice to confirm how late you could do the move and still go under the fireball. D went almost point blank range but B made me cry.

Quote
-Same holds true for his kick stance, d x2+K, it's invulnerable to low fireballs but maybe because Reynald's just Reynald but once I hop over one or even ground fireballs, he'll dash in for some sort of punish and that's when I have to start guessing.  Also, just being in that state is kinda vulnerable for obvious reason.  I can't count how many times I wanted to cancel into hcf K from that stance I back step instead when I'm doing the back motion and thus eat a fireball or worse, a DM.  Just use it cautiously.

Plan to use them liberally, I want to let the opponent know that I have options and can and will use them. I duck a lot and the start jumping in deeper? Great, they become easier to hit out of the air. I kick stance hop and they rush in for pressure? Sweet, they stopped fireball whoring. Kick stance hop is way faster than jumping or rolling through a fireball. Chin has lots of tools and imo its important to throw them out on a regular basis so your opponent is cautious. Both stances are a flick away from being canceled into safety so I'm not too worried.

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-Agreed, I cannot overstate how good his Ex qcb+P is.  Full invincibility, can be drivecanceled for a longer combo, and it's -1 on block.  Just don't get too spam happy otherwise a vertical jump can punish it easily as well.

Yeah, vertical range is its only weakness.

Quote
-What do you mean about the B counter, it's been free cancelable into anything even if it's not a fireball.  So is the D counter.  The only thing that's changed it seems like you cannot keep canceling your cancel into qcb B--in the arcade you could deal with Joe's Ex hcf+P but just canceling qcb B into another qcb B etc.

Just think maybe fireballs should be mentioned specifically. A lot of Shen's still don't cancel their fireball slaps into specials.

Quote
-qcb~hcf C has a lot of invincibility but it's also super slow with 18 frames of startup minus the freeze time.  I have yet to successfully use it as a reversal on wake up but I guess I'll keep trying.

No man, forget wakeup. Offense is where its at. The moment they commit to pretty much anything (special, jump in, sweep etc) you do it and voila, instant pain. The amount and duration of invinicibilty this has is almost unfair.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on April 05, 2012, 06:13:50 PM
Yeah it was the reason I wasn't confident with the move until now. I thought these were supposed to go under fireballs but got hit quite a few times. Figured maybe I was doing them too late and went into practice to confirm how late you could do the move and still go under the fireball. D went almost point blank range but B made me cry.

I was talking to CMD...and he said it depends on the fireball.  He said Chin's hcf B goes under Saiki's fireball just fine.

Yeah, vertical range is its only weakness.

It doesn't help that he takes a slight step forward when he does his Ex qcb P too.

Just think maybe fireballs should be mentioned specifically. A lot of Shen's still don't cancel their fireball slaps into specials.

Ok I'll add that in. EDIT: It's already been mentioned under the description of the move.


Quote
-qcb~hcf C has a lot of invincibility but it's also super slow with 18 frames of startup minus the freeze time.  I have yet to successfully use it as a reversal on wake up but I guess I'll keep trying.

No man, forget wakeup. Offense is where its at. The moment they commit to pretty much anything (special, jump in, sweep etc) you do it and voila, instant pain. The amount and duration of invinicibilty this has is almost unfair.

18 startup frames is a long time, every time I've tried using it as an anti air or against grounded moves they tend to block it but I'll keep trying.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on April 05, 2012, 06:48:53 PM
I was talking to CMD...and he said it depends on the fireball.  He said Chin's hcf B goes under Saiki's fireball just fine.

Yeah thats why I was confused for a while since it seemed to be inconsistent during matches, thought it was mistiming on my end.

Quote
18 startup frames is a long time, every time I've tried using it as an anti air or against grounded moves they tend to block it but I'll keep trying.

The key is to do it as you see the move coming or when its done, not to do it close to when it hits (like a B counter).

Window of invincibility is huge so it makes sense for it to have the slight flaw of being slow. Basically gotta make your opponent afraid to throw out anything with any form of delay.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on April 06, 2012, 07:39:03 PM
I was talking to CMD...and he said it depends on the fireball.  He said Chin's hcf B goes under Saiki's fireball just fine.

Yeah thats why I was confused for a while since it seemed to be inconsistent during matches, thought it was mistiming on my end.

So I just test it out:  Chin's hcf B can go under 4 of the characters, Andy's, Ash's, Saiki's and King's.  It cannot go under Robert's, Takuma's, Mature's, Mai's, K''s, Athena's and Kensou's.

Shame since hcf B is the better combo starter by far.

Quote
18 startup frames is a long time, every time I've tried using it as an anti air or against grounded moves they tend to block it but I'll keep trying.

The key is to do it as you see the move coming or when its done, not to do it close to when it hits (like a B counter).

Window of invincibility is huge so it makes sense for it to have the slight flaw of being slow. Basically gotta make your opponent afraid to throw out anything with any form of delay.

I suppose if you have no drive, and only 2 supers it's worth going for it.  Think of it this way, if I have a drive, why risk -23 frames of recovery in the event it misses vs -1 frame if they block the Ex qcb P (and you can spam the drive cancel without wasting since it doesn't cancel on block).  I know there's invincibility but you're NOT going to get punished for the Ex qcb+P vs a chance of getting punished.  

UPDATE: Tried messing around with his qcb~hcf+C DM yesterday at #TheRunBack tourney.  It's basically fast enough to punish a standing strong hit (if you start at the same time) but definitely not fast enough against light hits and they can block it after pushing the light attack.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on April 06, 2012, 11:05:51 PM
So I just test it out:  Chin's hcf B can go under 4 of the characters, Andy's, Ash's, Saiki's and King's.  It cannot go under Robert's, Takuma's, Mature's, Mai's, K''s, Athena's and Kensou's.

Shame since hcf B is the better combo starter by far.

Thanks for the full confirmation.

No idea why SNK would do this, fireball avoidance is the whole point of the move. Not touching the B version outside of combos now.

Quote
I suppose if you have no drive, and only 2 supers it's worth going for it.  Think of it this way, if I have a drive, why risk -23 frames of recovery in the event it misses vs -1 frame if they block the Ex qcb P (and you can spam the drive cancel without wasting since it doesn't cancel on block).  I know there's invincibility but you're NOT going to get punished for the Ex qcb+P vs a chance of getting punished.  

UPDATE: Tried messing around with his qcb~hcf+C DM yesterday at #TheRunBack tourney.  It's basically fast enough to punish a standing strong hit (if you start at the same time) but definitely not fast enough against light hits and they can block it after pushing the light attack.

Did they show you on stream? I watched the archive today in the morning and didn't see any match with you in it.

I too used the move extensively online yesterday and I'm definitely going to stick with it, I think its great. It hits hard and can punish a ton of things and worked wonderfully as an anti-air often. It has a better vertifcal hit box and the move connects as a counter most of the time. Like you said its not fast enough to punish light attacks but other than that there is so much to punish and fish for.

The advantages it has over EX QCB+P is range, a better hitbox and better damage. It can combo into the A version for major damage or you can juggle into a drive combo instead for even bigger damage.

So yeah, gonna use both these moves for different purposes. The damage potential and invincibility on this super shouldn't be ignored imo.

Now to get the damn drink to come out consistently lol, I always get the stupid drunken fist when I really just want a sip. I can do it fine in practice but in the heat of the match I often mess up.

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on April 06, 2012, 11:38:54 PM
Did they show you on stream? I watched the archive today in the morning and didn't see any match with you in it.

Nah, usually what they do is a play a couple of winner's round, several losers then cut to Marvel.  When KOF reaches GF they'll put us back on but since we started late there were barely streamed any matches.  I'll try to get on stream for casuals next time.  

Chin continues to be a challenge to many players with several straights (OCV) on experienced and veterans (with one double straight in the top 12) and of course new players are completely baffled how to deal with him; easily my best Chin performance in awhile.

I too used the move extensively online yesterday and I'm definitely going to stick with it, I think its great. It hits hard and can punish a ton of things and worked wonderfully as an anti-air often. It has a better vertifcal hit box and the move connects as a counter most of the time. Like you said its not fast enough to punish light attacks but other than that there is so much to punish and fish for.

The advantages it has over EX QCB+P is range, a better hitbox and better damage. It can combo into the A version for major damage or you can juggle into a drive combo instead for even bigger damage.

So yeah, gonna use both these moves for different purposes. The damage potential and invincibility on this super shouldn't be ignored imo.

Can you give me specific examples / setups when you use the DM?  Maybe I just resort to dashing s.C/far C into combos instead of the DM in your scenarios....I wonder.

Now to get the damn drink to come out consistently lol, I always get the stupid drunken fist when I really just want a sip. I can do it fine in practice but in the heat of the match I often mess up.

How are you performing the drink?   About 2 months into Arcade XIII I conditioned myself do the drink as hcf~b+P and I haven't gotten the overlaps since for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on April 07, 2012, 01:34:14 AM
Nah, usually what they do is a play a couple of winner's round, several losers then cut to Marvel.  When KOF reaches GF they'll put us back on but since we started late there were barely streamed any matches.  I'll try to get on stream for casuals next time.  

Chin continues to be a challenge to many players with several straights (OCV) on experienced and veterans (with one double straight in the top 12) and of course new players are completely baffled how to deal with him; easily my best Chin performance in awhile.

Great, and I'll never get to see it. At least we're getting some stream time I guess, hopefully more will be given as time goes on.

Yeah Chin is just one of those characters, you never know how well or effective he might become just in the heat of the moment. I've had lots of experienced players look very lost or start doing really stupid stuff in his presence.

Still, just about no one seems to take him up. I'm pretty much the only Chin user in my online region. Can't say I mind hehe.

Quote
Can you give me specific examples / setups when you use the DM?  Maybe I just resort to dashing s.C/far C into combos instead of the DM in your scenarios....I wonder.

I'm not really using it as a poke or combo starting tool like you would with sC, more like a forward moving invincible wall to stuff just about anything on reaction and/or anticipation. So stuff like if you see a sweep coming or a hopping or jumping jCD or another normal or a special move that doesn't end in an instant like a light attack. Like if you have a K' player spamming the fireball move in your face or a character space or two away. It goes through all that. Sort of like the B Counter but moving forward instead of backward with complete invincibility instead of speed. Just like a Counter you can stick it in between stuff (like between kicks during Kyo's QCF+K).


Quote
How are you performing the drink?   About 2 months into Arcade XIII I conditioned myself do the drink as hcf~b+P and I haven't gotten the overlaps since for obvious reasons.

I'll try that. I usually do it B, DB, D, DB.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on April 25, 2012, 12:08:06 PM
Got side tracked practicing the s.B, QP, far C, s.C/far C starter and finally found a "practical" (no jump in), 3 stock HD, anywhere:

s.C, far D, HD, s.C, far D, (qcb+A, [HC] hcf+D)x2, df.B, qcb+C [HC] hcf+D, qcb+A,[HC] hcf+D, df.B, hcf+B df B, qcb A, [HC] qcf x2+BD NM, hcf B, df B~(slight delay) B, qcf x2+P DM = 1001dmg

It's been updated in the wiki already, yay me.

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: LazieFreddy on April 25, 2012, 01:09:31 PM
FYI, the combos in the SNK chin video are posted on the offical blog.  It might be more convenient for some of us when practicing:

http://game.snkplaymore.co.jp/official/kof-xiii/blog/ (http://game.snkplaymore.co.jp/official/kof-xiii/blog/)

①2B->22PP->22KC->3B->214A->C

②2B->22PP->22KC->41236B+D->41236B->214C->DC 41236D->3B->41236B->3BB->C

③通常投げ->214A->DC 41236B->214A+C->41236B->3BB->C

④2B->22PP->22KC->41236B+D->41236B->3B+D->41236D->3BB->C

⑤2B->22PP->22KC->BC->C->【214A->HC 41236D】2->3B->低空214A->HC 41236D->214A->HC 41236B->214A->HC 41236D->214A->HC 236236B+D->41236B->3B->BB->C

⑥2B->22PP->22KC->BC->C->22KC->41236B+D->41236B->【214C->HC 41236D->3B->41236B】3->214C->HC 236236B+D->41236B->3B->BB->C
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: yamazaky96 on May 08, 2012, 09:03:36 AM
hi guys
I just started playing chin yesterday
i got to do this combo:
 j.  ;c > ;c >  [;b ;c ]>  ;c >  ;df  ;b >  ;dn  ;db  ;bk  ;a > DC  ;bk  ;db  ;dn  ;df  ;fd  ;d >  ;df  ;b >  ;b >  ;dn  ;db  ;bk  ;a > DC ;bk  ;db  ;dn  ;df  ;fd  ;b >  DC ;dn  ;db  ;bk  ;c >  DC ;bk  ;db  ;dn  ;df  ;fd  ;d >   ;df  ;b >  ;df  ;b>  ;df  ;b>  ;b >  DC ;dn ;df ;fd ;dn ;df ;fd ;b ;d Hold  ;uf>  ;dn ;db ;bk ;db ;dn ;df ;fd  ;a
1040 dmage at 2 drinks, full HD and 3 stocks

I ve been reading and learning from this thread and will work on my chin to be better later when I reach home
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on May 19, 2012, 02:19:21 AM
Vegas showed up last night at the TheRunBack and I got humbled by a Chin player and I took some notes about a particular fancy reset setup in the corner:

After a df.B into s.A/s.C reset he would hop cancel (d x2+K -->hop) and the timing is so perfect as you'll be coming down on them as they land first so that you can do a deep j.B for a safejump (needs testing) or land and throw into the corner for a combo or of course d.B into Quickie Punches...

It's one of those need to see things to understand how good the mixup is.

Another thing I learned the hard way is on wakeup, Chin's Ex qcb P will lose to Chin's Ex hcf K.  We were both point blank to each other, I was waking up, I did the Ex qcb P which has instant invincibility and it lost Chin's Ex hcf K which is only invincible once he starts rolling which left me baffled and consequently eliminated me out of the tournament because of it.

Further testing revealed that as long as Ex hcf K is done ever so slightly earlier than the Ex qcb P, he'll start rolling in time before the Ex qcb P hits.  Ex qcb P has a 7F startup.  You can however time it so that that Ex qcb P hits the Ex hcf K before he starts rolling.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: LazieFreddy on May 19, 2012, 04:33:01 AM
How many reps of df.B do you do before doing a st.C reset hop cancel?  I messed around with it for a bit and I couldn't get it to safe jump against EX Iori's DP C.

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on May 19, 2012, 08:20:02 AM
How many reps of df.B do you do before doing a st.C reset hop cancel?  I messed around with it for a bit and I couldn't get it to safe jump against EX Iori's DP C.

I did say that needed testing =).  It just looked like a deep as hell hit when I saw it, I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: LazieFreddy on May 19, 2012, 01:59:57 PM
It's very possible that I'm not doing it correctly.  The concept is sound, and we just need to find out the exact timing of this to do a safe jump.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on June 15, 2012, 12:22:35 AM
Guys, what is your answer to ppl who keep spamming jumping attacks? Especially those that hop around with Kyo's j.dwn.C all day? From the front and from above, B counter is great but can become predicatble.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: desmond_kof on June 15, 2012, 12:25:15 AM
Guys, what is your answer to ppl who keep spamming jumping attacks? Especially those that hop around with j.dwn.C all day? From the front and from above.

If you're fighting against Kyo's who spamming that, you can always anti-air them with cr.B, which will cause the attack to miss and hit them on the way down.

I dont play with Chin, but I can tell that he's short enough to deal with it with that answer.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on June 15, 2012, 12:33:29 AM
If you're fighting against Kyo's who spamming that, you can always anti-air them with cr.B, which will cause the attack to miss and hit them on the way down.

I dont play with Chin, but I can tell that he's short enough to deal with it with that answer.

I just stunned the training dummy, don't think it works :\
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: desmond_kof on June 15, 2012, 12:51:55 AM
If you're fighting against Kyo's who spamming that, you can always anti-air them with cr.B, which will cause the attack to miss and hit them on the way down.

I dont play with Chin, but I can tell that he's short enough to deal with it with that answer.

I just stunned the training dummy, don't think it works :\

Tried cr. D?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Diavle on June 15, 2012, 01:07:44 AM
Tried cr. D?

Better but it seems it would only be useful when they jump in from the front, Chin gets hit every time if done from point blank or above. Doesn't seem reliable unless the opponent misjudges the distance on his attack.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on June 15, 2012, 11:48:36 AM
D x2+P, throw/counter/ovehead.  If they cross you up after you duck, qcb C them but it needs to be timed correctly.  If they're hopping you have to time a s.A.

Either way it's not that easy and it's a risky situation for him.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: t3h mAsTarOth...! on June 15, 2012, 01:18:25 PM
Instant hop C+D... Chin's j.C+D is weird... It wins air-air like he is not even there... It has short range but if you are in range then you will most likely win... If you score a counter hit then it's game on...

j.C+D, hcf+D, d/f+B, d/f+B, qcb+A ...meterless and works at full screen... If you have 1 meter and 1 drive then drive cancel the qcb+A to extend the combo into Chin's usual... Huge damage if you are drunk... If you spend the meter then at the end of the combo you will build 1 whole meter back and at least 25% drive...
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on June 15, 2012, 02:31:58 PM
I used to use QP a lot as anti air, duck then QP, although I eventually would get hit out it if they're attack hits low (remember Chin's d x2+P stance even ducks d.As!) I found it overall more reliable just to trade or hit them clean in the air with his QP rather than risk them landing and eating and HD.  

One more thing, if Iori tries to do his crossup b+B (I suppose same for Robert), Chin's qcb C (the other direction of course) wins every single time.  It's just hard if they do it off a hop but jumps are easy to hit Iori out of it.  
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Sharnt on June 22, 2012, 02:55:30 PM
If Kyo does jd.C late will he hits you else if you're ducking? Or doing it this late will make it trade with the QP?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on July 03, 2012, 02:51:58 PM
If Kyo does jd.C late will he hits you else if you're ducking? Or doing it this late will make it trade with the QP?

I couldn't get Kyo's j.d+C to hit Chin's ducking.  QP seems to always trade with aerial hits.

---

I found something useful against Iori's command cross up hop.  Mentioned above, if the cross up is a jump or hyper jump you simply do qcb C the opposite direction. Problem was, cross up hops were too fast for Chin to do the same.  So for hops: hold db, as they jump over you press C and you'll do d C the other way.  Cancel his d C into df B either way and you'll capitalize on the counter which you'll likely get; free juggle combo.  If it doesn't trigger the counter message just mix them up since you're in their face or cancel the stance with BD and bait a punish.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: t3h mAsTarOth...! on July 13, 2012, 04:06:42 AM
Chin with 5 drinks is funny... 2 meter HD combo... What a lazy 100% combo...

j.D/s.C, s.C, HD, s.C, qcb+C, hcf+B, qcb+C, hcf+D, d/f+B, Neomax, hcf+B, d/f+B, qcb+A...
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on July 16, 2012, 07:30:02 PM
Chin gets the easiest safe jumps. All you have to do to get them is combo into sweep! >>

In the corner something like c.B s.C c.D then just hold up forward and press C once you're under their head height.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on July 17, 2012, 02:34:42 AM
Chin gets the easiest safe jumps. All you have to do to get them is combo into sweep! >>

In the corner something like c.B s.C c.D then just hold up forward and press C once you're under their head height.


I never thought about him as a safe jumper but it does make a lot of sense with his low jumps--I probably do it naturally without really thinking about it.   Does the sweep combo off the s.C?  You would have to do the stance cancel if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on July 17, 2012, 08:27:48 AM
I never thought about him as a safe jumper but it does make a lot of sense with his low jumps--I probably do it naturally without really thinking about it.   Does the sweep combo off the s.C?  You would have to do the stance cancel if I'm not mistaken.

Exactly it, you have to cancel in between all of them in the example I gave. Its really not that easy either, but at least there is a way to do it. As safe jump go it looks about 4f but I've not tested it - it hits them below the knee and is about the only time over ever really combod off a jump  C.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on August 18, 2012, 10:17:55 PM
Nothing particularly new but if you know anyone that wants to try Chin there are worse places to start than this.

[KoFXIII] Chin Gentsai - Basics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWyU3chdVMg#ws)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on August 19, 2012, 03:02:17 AM
^ Hmm that HD combo looks familiar...:)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: LazieFreddy on August 19, 2012, 03:40:46 AM
I'm having a lot of trouble against the Daimon match up.  I get zoned out by st.B.  It out pokes everything chin has, and it's hard to counter since it's fast and if you miss the counter he can dash up grab.  I can't jump either since Chin's jump is really floaty, and he can anti air easily with st.D.  Anyone has any ideas how to approach this match up?

On a second note, not sure if this has been discussed before, but I noticed that there's a difference between dd+K (kick stance) and dd+BD (kick stance cancel). 

Basically, when trying to link st.C into another st.C, cancelling with dd+K seems easier than dd+BD, because the kick stance dd+K will give you the 4 frame close C regardless of how far you are, and still combos.  Whereas dd+BD after a close C will give you the 6 frame far C, it connects, but the timing is tighter.

On the other hand, when trying to cancel quickie punches into st.C, using dd+BD is easier in my experience.  Anybody noticed the same thing?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on August 19, 2012, 01:22:24 PM
^ Hmm that HD combo looks familiar...:)

Did say it wasn't new, I was trying to get the CfC (C feint C) after HD but it was nowhere near consistent so dropped it ;)


@LazieFreddy, yes its like 2 frames faster to cancel into KK stance cancel than it is K, but you get the faster s.C out of the dd.K. I mentioned this in the notes on my video. I did look at the frames when recording it but can't remember what the exact values were.

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: LazieFreddy on August 19, 2012, 04:23:35 PM
Lol, I only watched the embedded video and didn't see the video notes.  Is there a reason why you still use dd+BD in your combos (as shown in the videos) when dd+K is faster?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on August 19, 2012, 08:49:27 PM
dd.BD is faster.

You just tend to be further away. You can also link the higher damage far s.C.
It leaves you in a stance in which you can block. There are many many reasons to use the BD one.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: bopper on August 19, 2012, 10:06:18 PM
Good vid, only thing i missed was the 1bar 1drive BnB with ex roll ^^
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on August 20, 2012, 01:31:50 AM
Yeah, I think s.C dd.BD s.C ex roll is missed but its just a starting idea for people.
I pulled off the most lol combo in a match today, gotta be more use to it than what we're seeing so far.

s.C dd.BD s.C qcbhcf.C, qcbhcf.A

1 drink
0 drive, 2 meter
555 damage

I was about 1/5 from the corner, they were about starting position distance from the corner and it completely turned the positional play around and won me the match. Anyone had a real play with the applications of this? The combos off it are a bit screwy and from the corner its not so great (i cant seem to get under them).
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Malik on October 14, 2012, 07:27:19 PM
All you Chins need to be abusing this
http://www.twitch.tv/mixupnight/b/335447789 (http://www.twitch.tv/mixupnight/b/335447789)
Watch at 1:39:12
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on October 14, 2012, 09:46:41 PM
Abusing what?
Chin being harder to jump in on than some? The feints we already abuse?
There was nothing really out of the ordinary here, unless you only play the chins that love rolling.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on October 14, 2012, 11:33:18 PM
Yeah, still there are a great number that don't use them as much as they possibly should.
Game is still young so hopefully we keep enough people round to get it right!
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Sir Octopus (Saiki) on October 15, 2012, 01:55:56 AM
Regardless, there are a lot of Chins out there that don't cancel stance because it takes too much execution, needless to say it only takes practice and it pays off.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: LazieFreddy on October 15, 2012, 02:10:41 AM
Yeah, it takes practice to master stance cancels, but it pays off for much better pressure and easy hit confirms.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on October 15, 2012, 07:13:41 AM
You mean there are people that play Chin without stance cancels? : )
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Sir Octopus (Saiki) on October 15, 2012, 06:50:27 PM
I've seen a couple of French Chin that don't use cancels.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on October 15, 2012, 07:01:31 PM
Who are they?

Watching their 'champions league' tournament yesterday they all did.
If you didn't see it btw, its in the archives at twitch.tv/yamato_fr - well worth a watch, it was pretty good (and a weekly thing!!!).
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: A3Religion on October 16, 2012, 03:21:55 AM
Please can someone explain what they are talking about in the wiki about the Jump/Hop Cancel? Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: A3Religion on October 16, 2012, 05:40:50 AM
Found out sorry forget it.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on October 16, 2012, 08:16:26 AM
Please can someone explain what they are talking about in the wiki about the Jump/Hop Cancel? Thank you in advance.

Hi and welcome to Dream Cancel.  If you need any clarification on Chin's wiki just ask me, I wrote the bulk of the wiki if not all of it.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on October 16, 2012, 12:16:29 PM

I've seen a couple of French Chin that don't use cancels.

Who are they?

Watching their 'champions league' tournament yesterday they all did.
If you didn't see it btw, its in the archives at twitch.tv/yamato_fr - well worth a watch, it was pretty good (and a weekly thing!!!).

I see stance cancels galore in the French stream, tons of Chin players and most of them pretty good. 

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on October 29, 2012, 11:12:54 PM
I see stance cancels galore in the French stream, tons of Chin players and most of them pretty good. 

Thats the thing, in France he's probably the most popular character!

I'm gonna be streaming this weekend too so if you get time to see uk time streams then there will be plenty for you to laugh at :D
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on November 12, 2012, 11:23:16 PM
Video from France of the recent 2v2 tournament - I'm not going to point out where there is Chin, its France pretty much everyone uses him.

part 1 was a write-off with no sound and one game so lets start with part 2

http://www.twitch.tv/archive/archive_popout?id=339305113 (http://www.twitch.tv/archive/archive_popout?id=339305113)    ---    part 2
http://www.twitch.tv/archive/archive_popout?id=339339212 (http://www.twitch.tv/archive/archive_popout?id=339339212)    ---    part 3


Some video of me playing terribly just for the hell of it (I live away from other people so haven't been able to play real people in about 2 months).

http://www.twitch.tv/secretsessions/b/338006418 (http://www.twitch.tv/secretsessions/b/338006418)
http://www.twitch.tv/secretsessions/b/338069990 (http://www.twitch.tv/secretsessions/b/338069990)

If you have some time and want something to watch. As an aside, I had never picked Shen before so you'll see how badly that goes ^__^

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: marchefelix on December 05, 2012, 12:41:03 AM
This is insane!

1 Drink, 1 meter, full drive, 100%!

KOFXIII CHIN HD combo_3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNXX3aJcGS0#)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Sir Octopus (Saiki) on December 05, 2012, 12:43:25 AM
From one Chin player to another, I have to respect this.

Congrats to whoever made this eye candy.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: marchefelix on December 05, 2012, 12:47:43 AM
Would you mind explaining how he can do that many far C's (or at least that's what I assume they are) in a row?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Sir Octopus (Saiki) on December 05, 2012, 12:55:43 AM
As soon as you do the first cl.C you need to do a stance ( ;dn ;dn  ;b or  ;d) and cancel it quickly ( ;b+ ;d) and then do another  ;c (second  ;c will auto correct and come out as a far  ;c), third ground hit is also a far  ;c, fourth hit is a far  ;d.

Now, to cancel the hit and stance at the same time, simply do  ;dn ;dn ;b+ ;d.

This will do the stance and cancel it at the same time, allowing you to do another fierce punch without going through all the hassle.

Now, there's one more thing, after each stance cancel, you need to input  ;fd at the same time that you input you next  ;c or  ;d, otherwise the next hit wont connect.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: raisedbyfinches on December 05, 2012, 10:41:11 PM
He knows about the cancelling, its the pressing forward I think he was after.

Video is pretty nice, I'll stick to two feints though - I know there's no way I'll get that out under pressure :3
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: marchefelix on March 06, 2013, 08:07:09 PM
KOF XIII Chin _家用 Stun Combo.3 (鎮元齋暈眩連段3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRKjwyyYrg4#)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Fang on March 07, 2013, 04:13:50 AM
Hello fellow Chin players, just wanted to share this stun combo I made .. Notations are in the description

KOFXIII Chin Stun combo 1023 dmg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zxkcvl7Z94#ws)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on May 12, 2013, 07:09:03 AM
Turns out that Chin's df B is actually -2, like the arcade version.  *Rejoices*
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: mechanica on June 11, 2013, 11:32:59 PM
Turns out that Chin's df B is actually -2, like the arcade version.  *Rejoices*
Is this from max blocked range? I feel that it is range dependent. I've been trying to poke more with far C xx df.B (even as a whiff cancel) but if done at the wrong range, it definitely feels like less than -2.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on June 12, 2013, 09:44:07 AM
Turns out that Chin's df B is actually -2, like the arcade version.  *Rejoices*
Is this from max blocked range? I feel that it is range dependent. I've been trying to poke more with far C xx df.B (even as a whiff cancel) but if done at the wrong range, it definitely feels like less than -2.

The frame data man himself, Keykkako, replied with:
―――カントク――― (@Keykakko) tweeted at 1:26 AM on Sun, May 12, 2013:
@DC_Kane317 @ManChest 二起脚1 (df B) is actually -3~+2F,Contact state~tip hit for his 硬直差 (recovery)
(https://twitter.com/Keykakko/status/333498492859318275)

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: mechanica on June 17, 2013, 05:56:21 AM
Turns out that Chin's df B is actually -2, like the arcade version.  *Rejoices*
Is this from max blocked range? I feel that it is range dependent. I've been trying to poke more with far C xx df.B (even as a whiff cancel) but if done at the wrong range, it definitely feels like less than -2.

The frame data man himself, Keykkako, replied with:
―――カントク――― (@Keykakko) tweeted at 1:26 AM on Sun, May 12, 2013:
@DC_Kane317 @ManChest 二起脚1 (df B) is actually -3~+2F,Contact state~tip hit for his 硬直差 (recovery)
(https://twitter.com/Keykakko/status/333498492859318275)


Cool!  I thought it was worse.

I'll definitely have to come up with some stance cancel strings that space it well.

I've been messing a lot more with his 'coward crouch' dd+P stance. It comes out a lot faster than I thought. I forget all the options I have sometimes though like counter/barrel roll... Reset in the corner into it makes close-C-happy characters whiff which is great. To make it less telegraphed you can reset with st.A/C into dd+k, hop back-hop forward-crouch. Quite tricky!
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on July 23, 2013, 11:32:20 AM
I'll definitely have to come up with some stance cancel strings that space it well.

Messing around with him some more,  if you do the following blockstring: s.C, d x2+BD, walk forward slightly far C, df B, it'll leave him at the sweet spot with a +1F or +2F adv which is perfect to bait 1F grapplers.  You can either neutral jump afterwards, skip backwards in the kick stance then skip back forward after they try to punish you or just repeat the string again.  

As oppose to the blockstring hcf K, df B...which always leaves you at -2F or -1F.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: mechanica on July 25, 2013, 11:40:07 AM
Quote from: mechanica
Awesome. I didn't think to use the skip back like that. That stance is proving to be better & better. Now to just remember that I can special cancel the crouch when I get it on accident...

Awww man you guys use it more, it setups a whole different layer of mind games.  Do you a) wait and punish middle to high hits? b) Overhead all low attempts if they have some experience playing Chin, c) low counter the low hits, d) throw, e) Ex Flex Punch etc...

Quote from: mechanica
I like how frionel lands df.B midscreen and resets with close C xx d,d+B, hop forward, meaty close C. I was wondering how to utilize the unique ability to get close C at any spacing. It feels a lot more active than far C.

The TJ tourney is what reminded me about the +2F adv for the df B; the French do get the credit for utilizing it the best-- 'specially when they play against 1F grapplers like Clark.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Killey on July 31, 2013, 06:39:23 PM
So I'm learning Chin to understand the match up more in preparation for a tournament. The Juicebox basic tutorial was a real big help so far in understanding the character. I'm also able to follow what top players are doing with the character in match vids. I have a couple of questions for you guys that main him though.

1) Who do you guys think is Chin's hardest match ups? Why?

2) Is Chin's counter (qcb+B/D) active on frame 1? I'm trying to compare the frame data with Elisabeth's counter which has a start up of 1-16, which I don't quite understand vs Chin's 1 frame start up on his counter. Provided it's not baited on wake up, is this a really good reversal option?

3) What are the quickest ways to exit out of d,d+K stance to try to block?

4) What's the frame advantage after a stance cancelled far s.C and close s.C. I'm not at my console so I can't test with 1 guard jump, atm. Just wondering if anyone knew off the top of their head.

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: LazieFreddy on July 31, 2013, 07:26:25 PM
!)Personally I think the hardest matchups for chin are: Daimon, King, Benimaru, EX Kyo, Ex Iori.

Daimon and King are hard because of their good pokes, especially st.B which hits low and have good range.  Chin gets out poked easily.  In close range, Daimon's grabs beats many of Chin's options.  Against good King players who know the range of Chin's barrel rolls, it's hard for Chin to get in.

Benimaru is tough because of his jump arc.  He can basically vertical/jump back D all day and wait for Chin to make a mistake.

EX Kyo and Ex Iori (and to a lesser extent the regular versions) both rush down Chin very well.  Chin has to be very on point and make good guesses with his options.

2) Chin's counter is 1-frame.  It is a good reversal only if your opponent is predictable since it only counters either high or low (ex version counters both but has very little active frames).

3) Press B+D to cancel kick stance is the fasting way.  Your other options are cancelling it into another special (counter, Ex back fist, Ex roll, etc).
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Killey on July 31, 2013, 09:35:25 PM
Thanks for the answers.

What do you guys think about Kim vs Chin? I know Evo was a prime example of the match up but part of that was player's mental state.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on August 10, 2013, 10:24:19 AM
Quote from: killey
1) Who do you guys think is Chin's hardest match ups? Why?

I get asked this a lot.  Generally fast characters: Particularly ones that can punish from farther distances.  So Duo Lon, Ex Iori, Claw, Kyo, Mai, Kim are the few among the top of my head.  Personally I hate a good King as well.

Quote from: killey
2) Is Chin's counter (qcb+B/D) active on frame 1? I'm trying to compare the frame data with Elisabeth's counter which has a start up of 1-16, which I don't quite understand vs Chin's 1 frame start up on his counter. Provided it's not baited on wake up, is this a really good reversal option?

It depends how you define a good reversal.  Strictly speaking, it's one of the BEST reversals since it's a 1F startup.   Like any good reversal, get too predictable and a good player is going to punish you hard.   His Counters changes the tide of matches either way.

Quote from: killey
3) What are the quickest ways to exit out of d,d+K stance to try to block?

BD cancel.

Quote from: killey
4) What's the frame advantage after a stance cancelled far s.C and close s.C. I'm not at my console so I can't test with 1 guard jump, atm. Just wondering if anyone knew off the top of their head.

I believe the close C in the kick stance has the same properties of a regular close C.  If you're not canceling, it's -4 on block.  If you hop cancel off any strong attack you're +17 if I remember correctly.

Quote from: killey
What do you guys think about Kim vs Chin? I know Evo was a prime example of the match up but part of that was player's mental state.
Personally, I think it's technically 50/50 not factoring in the fact that Kim's a hard opponent to deal with in general.  Chin's good at blowing up Kim's safejump setups and Kim's good at dodging Ex Flex Punch and punishing it with his aerial moves.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: marchefelix on October 11, 2013, 09:54:59 PM
GuttsCL's Chin stun combo

KOF XIII - Chin: practical stun combo (4PG 2DC) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uRmOhvTRiI#)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: Kane317 on October 11, 2013, 10:05:56 PM
That's definitely the easiest stun combo variation I've seen.  However, since the requirements are still 4PC 2DC, that still more than a simple 100% HD combo with 4 stocks as well.  Keep in mind he has 3 stock HD kill combos.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: mechanica on October 18, 2013, 11:04:34 AM
Does he have 3 stock kill combos without A) being drunk or B) starting with the three hit stance cancel link? (far C -> far C -> far D)? If so, mind enlightening me? I've seen stuff like hop C into that chain into HD into that chain again but I find that rather impractical.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
Post by: marchefelix on April 30, 2015, 07:28:27 PM
Potential infinite:

KOFXIII Chin Infinite? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLpeVATK-mk#ws)