Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => General Discussion => Topic started by: sibarraz on December 07, 2011, 12:08:32 AM
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Yeah, I know, is still premature to make a tier list considering that the game was released 2-3 weeks ago, but in your opinion, how is the tier list at the moment?
I'm interesed in the opinion of the habituals from the 1.1 version, since they could give us a better view considering the changes that everybody got
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Kula = S tier
They didn't nerf her enough, she needs to be like K, that in Mid screen she has problems pulling out her long combos but in the corner there is no problem with it. I say that as someone who likes to use her, I even think she has too many tools.
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Kula = S tier
They didn't nerf her enough, she needs to be like K, that in Mid screen she has problems pulling out her long combos but in the corner there is no problem with it. I say that as someone who likes to use her, I even think she has too many tools.
Kula's not that broke. Although I completely went braindead this weekend (I thought I could throw her out of her layspin attack), you can do a dp in between them. Her forward B pressure is annoying, but you can trade with your own 4-frame moves, you also can dp people or hit her from below if your character has a low hitbox.
I think Kula is different and is played more combo intensively because people are not abusing her EX Layspin as a get out of jail free card. However, I also feel she's gotten much weaker without it. I'm less bothered by her than I was in arcade.
I can't really say much on tiers. People say low tier characters are still low tier, but Daimon and Mai are much more dangerous, unpredictable, and just plain scary. Kyo's still good and so is Andy, but they still have the same weaknesses they had in arcade.
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It's EXTREMELY premature to try and do a tier list, especially when the ones for this game will probably be insanely compressed.
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you cannot make a tier list based on 2 weeks of matches even if you are playing a ton offline each week, especially for a cast of this size and when where they are placed in the team must be considered
at best someone who has had a lot of play so far and knows how to compare to arcade XIII due to experience with that version could present decent opinions of the placements of a few characters, but that is far from a list
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Tier list?! GTFO! I was at least asked this question 100 times at NEC and will say the same thing it's too early and every character is damn good except Leona. (lol)
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every character is damn good except Leona. (lol) someone
this :D indeed everyone have great tools to say something in every matchup... and i like that!!! btw i point out kensou is kinda OP ;) remember me when someone other complain about him xD
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S - Hwa Jai
Z - Everybody Else
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I don't believe there's an S+ character that rapes everyone else like Chun in 3S.
S: Billy, Clark, EX Iori (possibly the other EX characters)
A+: Shen, Saiki, K', Hwai.
A: Everyone else.
B+: Raiden, Terry.
B: Maxima, Leona.
Leona's still good, her Air Super makes her very dangerous, she just takes a little more work to win with. Maxima has guard points as his biggest advantage, but I would say a little more than half the cast can get around that and make it hell for him to get in. I will maintain that Raiden is B+, it's really hard to get in with him, and he just doesn't quite have the damage as Goro or Clark.
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I'm not gonna lie, I wish someone would close this thread real quick. This shit is what the new breed of FGC people have brought. Not only can people now a days not play a game without thinking about this, they don't even have the patience to freaking wait at least a month before even CONSIDERING a freaking tier list.
It's either because A: People want to see who's on top immediately so they don't have to put any rational thought into who they wanna play, no, they just want who they think will be the easiest to win with. Or B: People who are losing want to see if who they use is low tier so they have an excuse that's not their own skill level.
Seriously, this early into a game, this kind of thread only promotes bad things tbqh.
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S: Billy, Clark, EX Iori (possibly the other EX characters)
hahaaa, nice! First I loled, but then, I saw your avatar and I understood... xD
But yeah, its def. too earlier, to say anything about tiers... but:
btw i point out kensou is kinda OP
This is true! LOL
Anyways, I'm agree to say in the console edition, there are not GodTier or S++, no brokenness at all
ALL chars are very interesting and awful !!
In the top (imo) I think we'll find: Kyo/EXkyo, Kensou, EXIori, K', Kula, Yuri, Takuma, Duolon, Andy, Saiki and Mai maybe not in the top but for sure not in bottom like before... Maybe Mr. Karate will be that S++ ... :p xD
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Snip
Honestly, it's just for fun dude.
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Snip
Honestly, it's just for fun dude.
Even if it's just for fun, I don't want newer people to come in here, see a random tier list, and start taking it as gospel thus starting a complete downward spiral. Seriously, even if it's for fun, I'm sure that you won't die if this shit gets closed or we hold off on it for another month or two.
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Snip
Honestly, it's just for fun dude.
Even if it's just for fun, I don't want newer people to come in here, see a random tier list, and start taking it as gospel thus starting a complete downward spiral. Seriously, even if it's for fun, I'm sure that you won't die if this shit gets closed or we hold off on it for another month or two.
and im sure you wont die if it stays up granted i do share you dislike for tier list ,"pros" spaming top tiers etc. but honestly dude its just a discussion not the final word itself. though i guess a name change for this thread might be a good idea if you could some how reword it to not sound like a tier list thread
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I don't think Tier lists are important in KOF. They also give people the wrong idea about characters. If we "speculate" people get out of hand and take things out of context. Just like every other game.
Besides every character in the game is pretty damn good in their own right. So no need to say who's what tier. I can see why people don't care about a list because it leads to nothing but complaints. Nobody will die without a tier list because they are just opinions anyway and you know what they say about opinions ;).
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lots of people will believe shitty week two tier lists and talk about them months down the line as if they're flawless science. people can't fucking read, even "just for fun" tierlists will get repeated and used to justify bitching and shit
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Besides every character in the game is pretty damn good in their own right. So no need to say who's what tier. I can see why people don't care about a list because it leads to nothing but complaints. Nobody will die without a tier list because they are just opinions anyway and you know what they say about opinions ;).
lots of people will believe shitty week two tier lists and talk about them months down the line as if they're flawless science. people can't fucking read, even "just for fun" tierlists will get repeated and used to justify bitching and shit
Thats it!
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Japanese Tier List -
S+: 98 Iori, Saiki
S: Daimon, Athena, Kula, K', Vice, Hwa
A: Kyo, Shen Woo, Andy, Billy, Takuma, King, Maxima ,Mature, Kensou, Yuri, Claw Iori, Elisabeth, Benimaru, Joe, Duo Lon, Clark, Mai
B: Ash, Kim, Raiden, Ryo, Leona, Chin, Terry, Robert, Ralf
trolololol
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Interesting to hear, since some of the b characters are considered good characters in the western, this shows that the game is still new, but also that at the moment everybody seems to be a competent character
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Interesting to hear, since some of the b characters are considered good characters in the western, this shows that the game is still new, but also that at the moment everybody seems to be a competent character
Funny, I'm pretty sure anyone who has actually played the game for more than a week could figure that everyone is competent without having to wait on Japan to release a Week 3 Tier List.
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In Japan, that would actually be a week 2 tier list. Barely. The game's been out just over a week there.
But unless Running Wild cites a source, I'm going to assume he's trolling. :P
I honestly don't mind tier list discussion. The game is so well-balanced that tiers are (for me) a purely academic discussion. It's interesting to debate which character is the most well-equipped, and it's even MORE interesting when EVERY character is so well-equipped. If you follow me.
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i do want to chime in that 98 iori is retarded good in the few days i've had to play with him. and looking at 98 kyo he is looking incredibly buff as well.
the characters i run into most in online play (this week) is 98iori / hwajai / kyo / robert
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But unless Running Wild cites a source, I'm going to assume he's trolling. :P
Highlight the space under my post with the list. There's your answer.
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The game is so well-balanced that tiers are (for me) a purely academic discussion.
That's how I'd see most tier lists for fighters - academic. Especially this one. Tier lists have always been an incomplete science, as it never takes into account the players style. Some people who are new to KOFXIII and have been playing shoto-like characters have yet to realize the brilliance of a whole roster. SNK grapplers for instance; so many good grapplers in JPN right now, I'd swear he's S+ tier.
Without electronic editing, might as well write tier lists in pencil as they'll constantly change in 13.
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We shouldn't be looking at the JPN chr rankings as being anything more that what we are doing right here. For example I was reading one of the popular anonymous BB type ranking threads:
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/53747/1322852887/l50 (http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/53747/1322852887/l50)
Just a buncha guys doing what we're doing. (unless someone knows of some source with extremely high consensus numbers)
Here's a recent comment from yesterday:
Strong:
Kyo,Beni,Andy,Betty,Shen,Kim,Kensou,ClawIori,Yuri
Mid:
Everyone else
Weak:
Ryo,Mai,Raiden,Mature,Ralf
And an earlier one 3 days after release:
11/12/04
A…Kyo Leona ClawIori Hwa Chin Betty Shen King Vice
B…Athena Billy Beni FlameIori Andy Kula Joe Ash
C…K' Takuma Kim Yuri Mature Duo Maxima
D…Robert Ryo Terry Saiki Mai Clark Kensou Ralf Goro Raiden
One thing that strikes me as interesting is that of the ones I've seen, no one puts Billy at the top. Kyo/Shen definitely belong up there imo. Sadly I'm going to have to agree with Ryo being not being top/mid tier (for now, I'm trying to figure out how to destroy with him - I think there's pleny of potential, I can get about 483 dmg in the corner with only one drive), but have to disagree with Saiki/Clark/Kensou/Goro being in D just above.
Still early so will be interesting to see what people think as this evolves. Although I didn't think so on day one/two I agree that FlameIori is up there. It's not just a matter of pure goodness in this chr's case, but he can be played so similarly to earlier renditions that everyone's who used to use him can be pretty strong.
Anyways, I totally agree that this stuff is fun to discuss ;)
(if you guys are interested in what's being said on the JPN boards I can throw that in here from time to time as folks are writing in plenty of reasons as to why they rank the way they do)
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The game is so well-balanced that tiers are (for me) a purely academic discussion.
That's how I'd see most tier lists for fighters - academic. Especially this one. Tier lists have always been an incomplete science, as it never takes into account the players style. Some people who are new to KOFXIII and have been playing shoto-like characters have yet to realize the brilliance of a whole roster. SNK grapplers for instance; so many good grapplers in JPN right now, I'd swear he's S+ tier.
Without electronic editing, might as well write tier lists in pencil as they'll constantly change in 13.
That's the awesome thing about console so far too. If there's a ton of disparity in what people are saying, then damn, we got a balanced game :D
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Japanese Tier List -
S+: 98 Iori, Saiki
S: Daimon, Athena, Kula, K', Vice, Hwa
A: Kyo, Shen Woo, Andy, Billy, Takuma, King, Maxima ,Mature, Kensou, Yuri, Claw Iori, Elisabeth, Benimaru, Joe, Duo Lon, Clark, Mai
B: Ash, Kim, Raiden, Ryo, Leona, Chin, Terry, Robert, Ralf
trolololol
They gotta' be trolling. I could see Ash, Raiden, Leona, Chin, and Terry in there for various reasons. But Ryo and Robert? That clued me in right there. I think it was The Answer (who also mains Robert as I recall) who said Robert was one of the best and can do everything (SRK, Projectile, Projectile Super, Command Grab, Dive, etc) and Ryo has parries, fucking parries. Nuff said.
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Japanese Tier List -
S+: 98 Iori, Saiki
S: Daimon, Athena, Kula, K', Vice, Hwa
A: Kyo, Shen Woo, Andy, Billy, Takuma, King, Maxima ,Mature, Kensou, Yuri, Claw Iori, Elisabeth, Benimaru, Joe, Duo Lon, Clark, Mai
B: Ash, Kim, Raiden, Ryo, Leona, Chin, Terry, Robert, Ralf
trolololol
They gotta' be trolling. I could see Ash, Raiden, Leona, Chin, and Terry in there for various reasons. But Ryo and Robert? That clued me in right there. I think it was The Answer (who also mains Robert as I recall) who said Robert was one of the best and can do everything (SRK, Projectile, Projectile Super, Command Grab, Dive, etc) and Ryo has parries, fucking parries. Nuff said.
Dude...whoosh...which is also my point. Highlight under his post.
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I know, but I still don't think Ryo is low tier.
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I know, but I still don't think Ryo is low tier.
He was trolling. But again, it was still my point. If no one highlighted under his post, newer players would take that as gospel, because to them EVERYTHING from Japan in accordance to FG's (not named MvC) is gospel, thus starting an annoying loop.
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^ He gets it lol.
Unfortunately, it is the sad truth that many players will take everything Japanese sources say as truth. Famitsu can give Final Fantasy XIII-2 a 40/40 score and people will think it's the best Final Fantasy game since 6.
Still much too early, we'll see what happens when KOF makes its rounds in the major tournaments coming up.
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^ He gets it lol.
Unfortunately, it is the sad truth that many players will take everything Japanese sources say as truth. Famitsu can give Final Fantasy XIII-2 a 40/40 score and people will think it's the best Final Fantasy game since 6.
Still much too early, we'll see what happens when KOF makes its rounds in the major tournaments coming up.
Uh, I wouldn't say that. Famitsu gave XIII, what a 38? People still trash the hell out of it lol. But FF is a weird subject, I mean look at FF7 and 8. Before FF7 was the best and 8 was awful, now FF7 is an overrated piece of crap and FF8 was misunderstood. Just watch, 3 years later and people are gonna start trashing FF9 and call FF12 amazing.
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man i wish ff6 would get a remake. totally kof related, both are great games.
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*smh* I'm going to need an aspirin.
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*smh* I'm going to need an aspirin.
Or you can lock the thread, and feel the pain subside.
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LULZ
I think if there are a F.G where the tierslists have minor importance, for sure is the KoF series!
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I think if there are a F.G where the tierslists have minor importance, for sure is the KoF series!
Let me tell you about the ABC's of KOF.
Athena
Billy
Choi
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more like:
Anhel
Bao
Chriss, orochi with the power of flame.
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That also works.
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Well the thing about the Console version compare to the arcade is that alot more characters are viable. I think it's way too early to discuss tiers tbh but it is a popular topic among competitive players. Since alot of character that are C tier has great tools to work with they should not be looked down upon just cause a early tier listing.
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I translated Dune's impression of all console characters from his elive cast 2 days ago. Thought it would fit in well with the tier list discussion>
Dune provides a caveat stating that these are merely his impressions at current and also
that he may be missing some detail in his analysis.
Ash:
Weak combos, that tend to increase opponent meter.
Good at being annoying.
For being a difficult chr to play not much return.
Billy:
Weak in breaking down guard, has strong zoning and normals instead.
Probably only real Billy users can make him strong.
Fun to use.
Saiki:
In general has no powerful combos outside of the corner.
It's not impossible to carry opponents to the corner but range on this is limited and carrying difficult.
(probably a lot of room for study mid-screen)
Upper-mid tier or Mid-upper tier.
Elizabeth:
Combos have less damage output.
Still good with a lot of meter.
Can still compete as EX counter can be comboed with specials.
People who chose her bc she was strong may move onto other stronger chrs.
Duo-Lon:
Has been affected by system changes.
His crossups are easier to defend taking value away from his rekka setups.*
Requires more precision.
I rate him low.
*(Not that sure I have this translated right)
Shen:
Nerfed slightly, balance-wise seems just right.
Can be put in any order.
I reccomend him.
Kyo:
Currently top tier, but takes skill to play.
Requires close combat for big damage, but this creates opportunity for opponents to punish him.
Can lack some stability due to the above, so requires a lot of practice despite move properties being good.
Benimaru:
Has everything, but has no jump attacks that are effective when used early.
j.CD is angled up and not that useful, if hitbox was downward, would lead to more of an advantage.
Has great tools like s.D, cmd throw, follow up on normal throw - close, but no cigar though.
Goro:
Buffed alot, but, is very matchup based.
Combos using hcf.A hcf.C dp.K are fun and good damage can be done when NM is included.
However, very few tools versus strong zoning.
Weak against air attacking, end up using dp.K to change the tide - comes down to what a player does in these
situations.
Not a bad pick though.
Claw Iori:
No good reversal moves (only EX DP - and better to use this preemptively).
Otherwise, good at breaking down guard and able to destroy once that's done making him easy to use.
Kinda like having a nameless without a good dp and a cmd throw instead.
Mature:
Despite move properties, easy to win with.
Strong Despair (and EX for anti-air), very good, esp in net-play.
Use throw and low start mixups for damage.
A bit lower tier, but can win.
Vice:
Less damage than arcade, but moves are better. Makes for longer matches.
Can pressure opponent with lots of meter, but no longer able to convert to death off of one combo.
Players should make sure to be well-practiced w her.
Still one of the better chrs.
Terry:
Currently I think he's the lowest.
Despite this, his combos are easy, strong rising tackle invincibility is good and crackshoot is good.
We'll see what Terry players are able to do with him going forward.
Andy:
Not hugely different from the arcade, but people used to the arcade may get frustrated when not
everything works the same.
i.e. Slower sweep, no invincibility on EX kuu-hadan.
Hishoken, kuu-hadan, NM are great for netplay, but less effective offline.
Joe:
Combos were great in the arcade - get's a lot of meter and can stun.
On console, getting a stun means the opponent ends up building 3 meters....making things difficult.
Can try to play him differently, but he loses flavor in doing so...
Kim:
A great Kim player, '3-seven' says Kim is very strong on console. I'd like to see him play in order to see.
Can't fight without meter. Without meter, far s.D to keep the opponent grounded while charging meter may
be the only way to go.
Hwa:
Has become very good on console.
Not a main for me, but will use him in sub teams.
Just using far s.D is strong.
Using heel for frame advantage is strong.
Has a 1 frame throw.
Def top tier.
Raiden:
Much weaker, requires skill now.
Still plenty of tools to do well. Raiden players in the arcade should have no trouble.
Can't recommend him to players just getting started on console.
Athena:
Looks like she was buffed, her playstyle is not best suited for this game.
fb~dp play doesn't do much damage.
Low damage output in general - perhaps someone will find something effective with her.
Her jump being low and ground attacks being weak really hurt her.
Looks strong, but think she's lower tier.
Kensou:
A lot of tiny buffs, such as being able to follow up off of normal throw.
However, like Athena is not best suited for the game.
Normals looks strong, but aren't really.
Maybe upper-mid tier.
Looking forward to the uncovering of more potential though.
Chin:
My least favorite to fight against in this team.
More buffs than nerfs, but EX counter has a smaller window making it a bit iffy, but
still has the potential for getting huge damage. If opponents stay away fearing his
combos, he just drinks making matters worse.
Can def win.
Ryo:
Looks very improved, but when it comes down to it, the only mid-range tool he has is
kooh-ken. On a whiff, he can be killed often. Not to say he can't compete, but players may struggle.
Although f.A became faster, it's reach is very limited. What's more is it's easy to drop his HD
combos online. Fun to use but...
Robert:
No incredible combos at the moment.
Mid range he has fb, s.CD, and dp. All interesting elements for him.
Great for people who like footsies characters.
Think he's mid-tier, but may all come down to the use of his NM which is very useful.
Takuma:
All comes down to getting that one opportunity.
Many of his combos can finish the opponent once started.
A double-edged sword though as he gives a lot of meter to the opponent.
Ralf:
Much easier to use.
Lower tier though.
Has few options for breaking down guard.
Fun combos.
Clark:
Not very strong property-wise, but very easy to win with him.
I recommend him to new players.
Difficult to reverse momentum with him though.
Leona:
Playstyle doesn't vary much from the arcade.
Some buffing, but nothing that really affects play.
Good with meter, but not the best with damage output.
Good anchor, but not geared towards reverse ocvs.
(maybe better geared towards 2nd position)
Mai:
Normal and big j.D can be cancelled with d.B makes it much easier to do mid-low mixups.
If jump d.B is guarded, usually at 0 or -1 making it difficult to punish her.
It comes down to footsies and use of jumping for her.
Also a chr with low properties, but easy to win with.
Yuri:
Extremely buffed and close combat much easier.
Has dp+K, a 1 frame throw which can be DC'd or SC'd.
A bit lacking in getting in on the opponent.
Although attack frames of j.CD have been increased, it doesn't have the range to be that effective.
If her jump-ins were better, she would be incredible. I use her as a sub, definitely worth studying further.
King:
In JPN everyone thought her console changes looked really weak.
She is extremely strong. Works well with the game engine.
Good close and from afar. Locking down the opponent with sliding/venom strikes is very strong.
K':
People coming from the arcade shouldn't have difficulty, but those starting on console may struggle.
Corner combos and combos using meter are still effective.
Not quite top tier.
Kula:
I think she's a bit difficult to use losing invincibility on EX ray spin, as the invincibility on her
crow bytes is not that reliable. More range on s.B doesn't really change anything.
People will likely have a tough time as her damage output is not great.
Maxima:
EX press does less damage as well as some other minor damage nerfs.
Still very versatile and strong with meter.
On the other hand, he's slow and will be put into situations where he has to endure pressure.
Probably will only end up getting used by true Maxima users.
That covers all the characters I think.
My team will likely be Kyo/Goro/Claw Iori...
Because Goro's effectiveness is based on matchups, I may switch him with King or Vice.
I didn't discuss Flame Iori, but think he's top tier.
Very good tools, very stable. If you're not sure who to choose as a third character, he's very
easy to use and strong.
On the other hand, it could be said that he doesn't have a whole lot of potential to grow and that
other characters may become stronger. But at any rate, he's very stable currently.
Haven't discussed NESTS Kyo or Mr. Karate as they're not available yet, but I can't imagine any of
the DLC chrs being weak so please pick them up and give them a try.
Personally I wish I could make a team with Kyo/Flame Iori/Claw Iori...
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i do have to agree with kensou's normals being a bit weak
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It seems like Japanese people always underestimate Terry. :P
Seems like a pretty balanced assessment, though. One thing he mentioned that got me excited is 777 praising console Kim. I would LOVE to see 777 play XIII. If you know who he is, you know how awesome that would be.
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Dunno 777, but would love to see any great Kim players.
One thing I was caught off guard by was his not including Billy/Saiki in top tier. (esp Billy)
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Sounds like a balanced assessment on a balanced game. Most listed as "mid tier", with top tier standouts being Hwa, Kyo and (possibly) EX Iori.
I dunno if some of his assessments are that accurate or in-depth, as he probably doesn't have extensive experience with every character.
Kula feels top tier to me, she was great in arcade and only big nerf is EX spin inv. but she got a buffed 5B which helps her already good footsies A LOT.
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777 is awesome, 1 of the 5 or so players that i actually like to see playing.
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Well you guys have piqued my interest. Will search for some vids featuring the guy and see what all the hype is about.
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Sounds about right, regarding the characters I know...
Athena: I find myself having to resort to weak rushdown tactics to do damage. Anti airing with DP only nets about 100 damage, which is quite low. FB~DP game definitely does not suit this game, but I think that's okay since it's such an abrupt and stark contrast to many of the other characters that it can throw your opponent off his regular pacing. I also throw a lot with Athena for damage.
Yuri: Mega buff, I think she is definitely top tier. Hard to get in, but once in, quite hard to push out. She has a couple tools get get in, so it's not a complete loss at > 1/2 screen. Damage output a little lower than some other characters, but that's to be expected considering all her tool.
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Well i think the yuri damage output is pretty good. A bit above the average imo.
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Being able to cancel her cmd grab is huge for her.
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i there any hope that SNK make few tweaks after the releasing all of the DLC characters....
it's just that i want do something bout Shen with grapples..-_-
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I wouldn't mind them giving Ryo a little love. He classically hasn't been very high on tiers almost ever.
Would also be nice for them to review the amount of meter a player gains when getting punished.
I think King is really going to be one to watch out for. She has a near perfect zoning game. Best in XIII I would say.
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I definitely agree with Kyo's analysis he is up there. King seems really good aswell, although he says Daimon is also top i haven't gotten around to trying him out. Would you guys say he is similar or better to his 98' counterpart?
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From what I can tell, he seems to have a tougher time in re: to AA'ring. I'm no expert on Goro by any means, but he seems a shade weaker than his 98 self. I have a feeling that Goro is going to do quite a bit of growing in the months ahead - would be crazy if he was stronger than in 98.
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He pretty much echoes what I feel about the characters except for Terry. Maybe it's the fact that he has a good personal matchup against him, because as far as I'm concerned, Terry has good normals, easy/painful combos and EX Power Wave. I just wish he had Power Dunk back, but I guess we can't have everything.
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It's me or everybody is mid-low tier to dune?
Well, at least from the moment doesn't seem to be any stupid tech that breaks the game
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By the time the game evolves these characters MAY be Top Tier
Yuri :)
Mai >:( (insane normals, crazy Neo Max I hate fanservice characters and people will use her more)
Hwa Jai
Vice :)
Kyo will be read like an open book so he may drop to mid at tier at worst when the game matures
DLC characters could be high if not top tier (SNK did say that DLC chars are a little stronger than Day 1 characters) EX Iori is strong but ATM people use him for familiarity so that's a factor on why he's looking strong but don't disregard Claw Iori as well. Hmm better get ready for a team specifically designed to kill Mai.
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Kyo being really simple doesn't keep him from being top tier. In arcade, everyone knew what Raiden was going for. Didn't change the fact that DK was a broken move.
Kyo gets very high damage off practical confirms, mid-screen and in the corner. He also has a well-rounded movelist and decent normals. He can't help but be good.
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I agree, I think kyo is up there. He can do a lot of damage meterless and his confirms are very easy and straight forward.
Right now, I don't feel any character is particularly BAD, which is a good thing. The tiers feels very compressed at the moment.
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I agree with this tier list, it pictures well the changes of the console and the place that each character belong, I agree with athena and kensou not working very well with the engine as well, and is always good to hear that King is awesome =P
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Dune's impressions are a great read, but I don't think people should take it too seriously. It's only his opinion after all. Thanks for the translation BioBooster!
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I find myself agreeing with dune in everything but terry in the list, and not because I play him lol. I used him the first week that the game came out just out of familiarity but I have since dropped him for saiki to better balance my own team. Any way terry is strong imo he may be a little one dimensional but he hits hard with a little meter an kills with a lot of meter. I think it's funny how much dune's opinion differs from frionel's. Frionel thinks terry and duo Lon are both really scary and high tier while dune calls them low tier.
It would be awesome if we could get the opinions of the guys who are playing in the NorCal vs SoCal and get an American tier list going
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I know, but I still don't think Ryo is low tier.
I like everyone thinking Ryo and Terry are low tiers, that makes it even more enjoyable to kick their asses with them, he he.
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By the time the game evolves these characters MAY be Top Tier
Yuri :)
Mai >:( (insane normals, crazy Neo Max I hate fanservice characters and people will use her more)
Yuri is a fairly good candidate; about the only downside to picking her (besides her voice) is her limited zoning game.
I wouldn't call Mai's normals godlike at all. Her crouch C is good, her jump B is good, and it's definitely good that she has a true c. B c. A string now to actually make it kinda meaningful to block low now. But compared to other characters AND older versions of Mai, her normals kinda suck. Most people who think they're great, I think, just haven't fought enough Mai players to learn her dead zones.
That said, her NeoMAX is legit. If anything, it's actually shifted my opinion of her from runaway battery to more of a semi-user or even anchor character. For full drive and 2-3 bars, you can take 50% life from full screen for any whiff less safe than a jab. Doesn't help her damage deficiency or bad defense, but it does something the rest of Mai is kinda poorly equipped to do -- truly scare the opponent out of hitting buttons.
I usually put her 2nd now and use Kyo for battery. Overall I think she's mid-tier at best, probably lower-mid. Not a death sentence in a game like this, but she's still an uphill battle against anyone with serious Mai experience.
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By the time the game evolves these characters MAY be Top Tier
Yuri :)
Mai >:( (insane normals, crazy Neo Max I hate fanservice characters and people will use her more)
Yuri is a fairly good candidate; about the only downside to picking her (besides her voice) is her limited zoning game.
I wouldn't call Mai's normals godlike at all. Her crouch C is good, her jump B is good, and it's definitely good that she has a true c. B c. A string now to actually make it kinda meaningful to block low now. But compared to other characters AND older versions of Mai, her normals kinda suck. Most people who think they're great, I think, just haven't fought enough Mai players to learn her dead zones.
That said, her NeoMAX is legit. If anything, it's actually shifted my opinion of her from runaway battery to more of a semi-user or even anchor character. For full drive and 2-3 bars, you can take 50% life from full screen for any whiff less safe than a jab. Doesn't help her damage deficiency or bad defense, but it does something the rest of Mai is kinda poorly equipped to do -- truly scare the opponent out of hitting buttons. I usually put her 2nd now and use Kyo for battery.
Mai's normals are NOT godlike? Please, sir, explain to me whats so average about st.D. It plows through everything! Her st.C is like Honda's st.H in SF4. After throwing a fan or something, it covers so much jump space and is completely disjointed (her fan isn't part of her hurtbox). st.D alone is enough honestly. That thing is straight up ridiculous for both AA and grounded poking.
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s. C is good on the outside, but it's uncomfortably slow at its minimum range (where you risk the very awkward transition to close C and the different timing it requires to AA; hit it early expecting a far C, and you get a too-early close C that misses its own active frames and plows right into the opponent's). Safe on block, but the low pushback means they're still uncomfortably close to Mai, and none of her advancing (walk-up to intercept), retreating (walk back/jump back), and stand-your-ground (vertical jump/stand still and bait) options seem good at that range to me. Half the time when I try for a s. C that I swear will win, I get clowned by something stupid like Shen early hop j. CD.
She has a very hard time winning trades to me where C is concerned, and the move seems like a waste pre-emptively. At that range, unless they're painfully stupid and I know they'll land on it, I'd rather do s. D or make them whiff with anti-air c. B.
s. D I have slightly fewer complaints about because of the slightly superior horizontal range. Harder to get a close D, and you don't feel so bad for not getting a bite preemptively because you outrange a lot of lows and the pushback is a bit more comfortable. It's good but not godlike. That's what I'm saying.
And mostly I'm thinking about her air normals when I say her normals are oversold. Her air normals have always been one of the biggest things she's had going for her on a fundamental level -- get a fan safely on screen and lock off air space with her fast jump and fast attacks. Her jump arc and gravity are up to the task, but most of her air normals aren't in 13. Much harder to clip limbs now unless you just don't give a fuck (a bad philosophy with a low-return character like Mai IMO) and hit a button ASAP. Waiting even a little to play hitbox games gets you creamed more often than not by people just thrashing in the air.
The only trick to beating Mai is just getting in, and her idiot-checks while zoning aren't particularly fearsome unless she has NeoMAX. Early hop attacks own Mai IMO. Just respect her fireballs getting in, put her back against the wall, and soon enough you'll be close enough to squeeze the life out of her. Take the trades, her reversals are limited and expensive, and you're still right in her face where her anti-airs are crap. One good combo and you have a great lead on her; you need to do something REALLY stupid for a low-damage character like Mai to come back on you.
Mai's bullshit is mostly useful against the inexperienced IMO. She clowns impatient players, but loses badly to people who don't throw their controllers whenever a fan hits them. She's fun and she's still one of my favorites, but she's definitely not that great.
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Dune's impressions are a great read, but I don't think people should take it too seriously. It's only his opinion after all. Thanks for the translation BioBooster!
No problem ;)
Yeah, he goes out of his way to say it is based on his current opinion of the game and that he may have some be missing/overlooking some of the details for some of the characters.
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I think it's funny how much dune's opinion differs from frionel's. Frionel thinks terry and duo Lon are both really scary and high tier while dune calls them low tier.
It would be awesome if we could get the opinions of the guys who are playing in the NorCal vs SoCal and get an American tier list going
Out of curiosity, do we have any post release impressions from Frionel in English? I would love to hear what he has to say - he did an amazing job analyzing console changes pre-release and his chr opinions where quite interesting/entertaining.
Totally agree, it would be great to have the same from US top players.
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Mai's normals are NOT godlike? Please, sir, explain to me whats so average about st.D. It plows through everything! Her st.C is like Honda's st.H in SF4. After throwing a fan or something, it covers so much jump space and is completely disjointed (her fan isn't part of her hurtbox). st.D alone is enough honestly. That thing is straight up ridiculous for both AA and grounded poking.
lol... you like my Mai don't you? we both got our main bitches there... you got King and i got Mai... haha...
on a real note whatever Ben Reed said is true... Mai is mid-tier at best... with only 2 reversal options... one is EX DM and the other one is Neomax... if Mai gets cornered with no meter then she's in BIG trouble...
but... and there is a butt (with the addition of giant BOOBS)... Mai is very tricky... most of the time it might look like she's just throwing things out there... which she is... but it is all to bait you... pre-XIII Mai was very safe and formulaic... which is why i never played her... XIII Mai is the complete opposite... she constantly takes risks *at least the way i like to play her* and in return she gets to frustrate you to no end...
yes unless i corner you with Mai, i'm not going to land any big damage on you... but at the same time she is great at building meter... she has no problem getting in or running away... so IMO if you like a fun + risky character + love blowing meter (like me) to do random Neomax (obviously make sure it'll connect and kill) and make everyone go WTF then play Mai...
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King > everyone. You heard it here first.
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I think it's funny how much dune's opinion differs from frionel's. Frionel thinks terry and duo Lon are both really scary and high tier while dune calls them low tier.
It would be awesome if we could get the opinions of the guys who are playing in the NorCal vs SoCal and get an American tier list going
Out of curiosity, do we have any post release impressions from Frionel in English? I would love to hear what he has to say - he did an amazing job analyzing console changes pre-release and his chr opinions where quite interesting/entertaining.
Totally agree, it would be great to have the same from US top players.
I was going off his opinions from the elive cast. I would be interested to hear what he has to say now
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It's too early to speak upon this. How ever its not too early to talk about a characters strong and weak points. This tier "list" crap has to stop not just in kof. Personally I think that this game is pretty well balanced.
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1. At some point, it can't be "too early" for tiers anymore. The game has had a full year to mature in arcade, and while there have been shakeups for console, it shouldn't take too long for the dust to settle and context to become clearer.
2. Tier lists are not useless or meaningless. When developed properly (by people who know what they're talking about) and considered in full context (individual matchups, ideal conditions vs. practical conditions), they are a useful tool for general evaluation of how uncommon matchups or matchups between unknown players are likely to play out.
They are the starting point for figuring out a matchup. They are NOT the totality of theory or practice. Nobody except idiots operate under this presumption. No actual, intelligent player capable of high-class competition abandons all individual thought as soon as the latest tier list is posted.
3. No matter how balanced a game is, there WILL be tiers, unless the game has only one character.
The only real question is how stratified they are -- how far beneath the high-tier characters are the low-tier characters? Are they just kind of underwhelming compared to the higher tier, or are they seriously deficient in basic competitive competencies?
From all indications, this game is still in excellent shape in the console version, as the fundamental design of the game (universal subsystems + 3 characters and variable order to offset individual bad matchups) keeps lower-tier characters much closer to the power of higher-tier characters than many other games. Putting Mai on your team might be a handicap, but it's nowhere near as wince-inducing as picking, say, Dan or Hakan in SF4, simply because of the different design philosophies in the game and its characters. Victory is still a realistic possibility without a gigantic player-skill mismatch in your favor.
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I'd say I'd give it at least 3 months before we can start believing in the tier list. There's too much unexplored yet and way too little matchups gone through to make a proper judgement anyway.
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No amount of argument is ever going to stop people from making tier lists for a fighting game.
If you think it's three months too early, or two weeks too early, or whatever; I suggest ignoring this thread until that time.
From this point forward, PLEASE avoid all discussion of the pros and cons of tier lists. People are allowed to discuss them if they want to.
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Clark:
Not very strong property-wise, but very easy to win with him.
I recommend him to new players.
Difficult to reverse momentum with him though.
I disagree with the assessment, and I'm totally biased ;) . Not strong property-wise? He is the only grappler with legit tick throws, autoguard command grab, etc. Really good overall normals. His standing D is his fastest poke with HD Bypass it's scary as hell.
I don't think he's easy. He's still a grappler, and they almost always have it tough. I will agree that he has the easiest Hyper Drive/Neo Max combo in the game though, but to do that 800 damage he needs at least 4 bars and if someone's zoning like crazy you kinda' have to spend one bar on an EX Charge Punch to get through the spam.
So long as he has a bar or two left he can win it, unless they want to Neomax Chip Kill him.
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well, a list with the opinion of some known players from japan, this is a compilation, so take it as you will and discuss
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trdk3xk06afa6blo6ai1b58v6af6fzah6akn8uh38v5n68alb3gy6aiv8voz6acdb38ub3na6afc3xe6diik6ag9b5g9dhc56almb4bn8x796adn6bf98ve5b49v8wjub5dg8w00j6h53x00j6-bk3-na12/25/11 (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trdk3xk06afa6blo6ai1b58v6af6fzah6akn8uh38v5n68alb3gy6aiv8voz6acdb38ub3na6afc3xe6diik6ag9b5g9dhc56almb4bn8x796adn6bf98ve5b49v8wjub5dg8w00j6h53x00j6-bk3-na12/25/11)
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Clark near bottom tier? Someone should introduce them to Bala.
The JP dudes really don't like Terry in this game it looks like. I find him to be solid, even in match vids you often see him give ppl a lot of trouble, this isn't a sign of a bottom tier character (though bottom tier doesn't mean as much in this game).
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I think they're trolling. Billy is low tier? Wha?
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And this is why it's better to hold off on tier lists for the first two months...otherwise, someone say something about a character's mama and all hell breaks loose...wait...wrong speech...damn eggnog.
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I think that the system per se gives even the low tiers had tools to look menacing
Still, since the game is fairly new, I just take it as how some players think that the chars could evolve in the future, since they had the game from the arcade, they could understand better the technologies attached to them
Still, from now tier list has not a big significance, but in the future, I think that will had even if some people are against them, but still, I found them good since I think that the big majority are not tier whores as people claim
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And this is why it's better to hold off on tier lists for the first two months...otherwise, someone say something about a character's mama and all hell breaks loose...wait...wrong speech...damn eggnog.
Cho mamma's so dumb she waives pop sickles around and calls it air conditioning.
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Lol at that tier-list and the majority of the ones I've seen. None of them seem to make much sense or have any semblance of coherence among others. It's hard to tell what perceptions are the major factors in constituting the placements. So I predict most of them will be pretty laughable to me until after at least 3 more months or so.
And Terry rock-bottom? Get the fuck out of here.
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The tier list we really need...is a canon tier list.
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Lol at that tier-list and the majority of the ones I've seen. None of them seem to make much sense or have any semblance of coherence among others. It's hard to tell what perceptions are the major factors in constituting the placements. So I predict most of them will be pretty laughable to me until after at least 3 more months or so.
And Terry rock-bottom? Get the fuck out of here.
There's quite a bit of disparity based on region.
Apparently Terry is S-tier in France.
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Lol at that tier-list and the majority of the ones I've seen. None of them seem to make much sense or have any semblance of coherence among others. It's hard to tell what perceptions are the major factors in constituting the placements. So I predict most of them will be pretty laughable to me until after at least 3 more months or so.
And Terry rock-bottom? Get the fuck out of here.
There's quite a bit of disparity based on region.
Apparently Terry is S-tier in France.
Viva la Terrylucion! Wait...I did something wrong here...
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Lol at that tier-list and the majority of the ones I've seen. None of them seem to make much sense or have any semblance of coherence among others. It's hard to tell what perceptions are the major factors in constituting the placements. So I predict most of them will be pretty laughable to me until after at least 3 more months or so.
And Terry rock-bottom? Get the fuck out of here.
There's quite a bit of disparity based on region.
Apparently Terry is S-tier in France.
Post French Tier list please.
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Lol at that tier-list and the majority of the ones I've seen. None of them seem to make much sense or have any semblance of coherence among others. It's hard to tell what perceptions are the major factors in constituting the placements. So I predict most of them will be pretty laughable to me until after at least 3 more months or so.
And Terry rock-bottom? Get the fuck out of here.
There's quite a bit of disparity based on region.
Apparently Terry is S-tier in France.
Post French Tier list please.
This is based on a recent cast by Dune where he cites that as being the case based on his collaboration with the French KOF community through eLive.
I would like to see where they put everyone as well :|
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S-Tier: Kyo, K', King, Kula, Andy, Yuri
A+: Takuma, Iori, Shen, Hwa Jai, Kensou
A: Elizabeth, Billy, Leona, Benimaru, Ash, Mature, Daimon
B+: Kim, Mai, Robert, Clark, Chin, Duo Lon, Saiki, Vice
B: Athena, Raiden, Ralf, Ryo
C: Terry, Joe, Maxima
Unrated: DLC characters
This is just my (very inexperienced) opinion. There's a lot of characters where I'm not really sure at all about at this point: Billy (his damage potential looks good but very situational) and Vice (seems very gimmicky but can dominate once she gets her game going).
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Why Terry considered as a low tier...??
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Hate on Terry and Maxima, why don'cha'?
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Japan really hates Terry lol. From what I seen I think the tier list is gonna be divided between USA Mexico and Japan. All the character has really good tools to work with. But I think we need to see a bit more KOF 13 tournament to truly decide on a general tier list. Also since this is a team game there's no match up chart to really determine the strength of a character unless ppl play 1v1. Since there's no (arcade) Raiden, K and Elizabeth I'm not worried in how the tier develops.
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Why Terry considered as a low tier...??
because he's weaker than most of the cast
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Terry is considered low for a number of reasons:
CONS:
--Really bad neutral game
--Poking normals are fairly slow/bad recovery
--Crack Shoot is awful, doesn't hit overhead, bad start-up, and half the cast can crouch under it and stuff his attempts
--Burn Knuckle is awful, bad start-up and unsafe on block
--Power Wave is awful, terrible start-up and tiny hitboxes
--Damage output is bad without Meter/Drive
--Neomax won't juggle consistently at all places on the screen
PROS:
--New target combo helps him with an easy confirm
--Standing D improved, supposedly
--Buster Wolf is still a good DM
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Here is mine!
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trog1vie627we97693b74z9d82nacfml3nliboeadzfo6d9xbae93zcb88ka7gj5dcoqa5a05ugu57hsev6zdjizbs7r6nambtjwatow4e8maqmy2gcbdtgo80oy8jb18p9h3thx49jp3200im-bk6-naKy0 (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trog1vie627we97693b74z9d82nacfml3nliboeadzfo6d9xbae93zcb88ka7gj5dcoqa5a05ugu57hsev6zdjizbs7r6nambtjwatow4e8maqmy2gcbdtgo80oy8jb18p9h3thx49jp3200im-bk6-naKy0)
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Here is mine!
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trog1vie627we97693b74z9d82nacfml3nliboeadzfo6d9xbae93zcb88ka7gj5dcoqa5a05ugu57hsev6zdjizbs7r6nambtjwatow4e8maqmy2gcbdtgo80oy8jb18p9h3thx49jp3200im-bk6-naKy0 (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trog1vie627we97693b74z9d82nacfml3nliboeadzfo6d9xbae93zcb88ka7gj5dcoqa5a05ugu57hsev6zdjizbs7r6nambtjwatow4e8maqmy2gcbdtgo80oy8jb18p9h3thx49jp3200im-bk6-naKy0)
I'm not even sure if i'm reading this right...
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this is mine don't pay any attention to the side arrows, and the characters aren't really put in any specific order just where i generally think they fit.
EDIT* not sure about nests kyo and mr. karate since i don't have access to them yet ( psn ). so i put them off to the side but they are between 2 groups where i think they could go.
http://tinyurl.com/7rvdfyq (http://tinyurl.com/7rvdfyq)
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http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trfa2ph06zdp5aly70dk8pk95df6affc5cdhagbpaain5ah28jip8onn8sfd8ngvafa38ndj6zc15alxadm08rkaac8f8nkb8pin70a36zfc6zh05cbr8nbr6z9yaakb72ijadox64dn2poy4g-bk1-nadarkTown2%20 (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trfa2ph06zdp5aly70dk8pk95df6affc5cdhagbpaain5ah28jip8onn8sfd8ngvafa38ndj6zc15alxadm08rkaac8f8nkb8pin70a36zfc6zh05cbr8nbr6z9yaakb72ijadox64dn2poy4g-bk1-nadarkTown2%20)
Anyway you can tinyurl that?
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Oh what the hell? Here's mine: http://tinyurl.com/887bvym (http://tinyurl.com/887bvym)
I still say Clark is top, if not top then upper high tier easily. He has the scariest mixup in the game. He has mobility. An EX that goes through projectiles, 2 bars and one DC equals easy 500 damage, he has an autoguard grab, he's the only grappler with tick throws, he one of the best CD's in the game and a dash that's fast as shit.
Now, the characters I marked I wouldn't really consider low, per-se. I consider them very niche. Not a lot of people are going to be using them and they have some really bad matchups but can still win with a little more skill.
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Alright, other than the whole Mr. Karate thing which you've already touched upon multiple times...
IN WHAT UNIVERSE is EX Kyo better than Normal Kyo?
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Guard Points.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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Guard Points.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
I main EX Kyo. Let me tell you those Guard Points aren't enough to put him in the same league as Normal Kyo in this game. He isn't Clark.
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Sho nuff ;)
I'm on PSN, so I could be radically off.
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Sho nuff ;)
I'm on PSN, so I could be radically off.
Trust me, you are lol. Besides, IMPO, Normal Kyo's the best character in the game, you know unless Bala suddenly unlocks the Theory Beni he fears so much.
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Its not really theory, Bala raped with him during that one levelup tournament. Its after that that I saw Reynald etc pick him. He himself dropped him in favour or Clark though it seems, and rightfully so.
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It's not that I don't think Beni's good, he is. But Bala makes him sound like some kind of unstoppable force, and idk if I'm seeing THAT.
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Terry is considered low for a number of reasons:
CONS:
--Really bad neutral game
--Poking normals are fairly slow/bad recovery
--Crack Shoot is awful, doesn't hit overhead, bad start-up, and half the cast can crouch under it and stuff his attempts
--Burn Knuckle is awful, bad start-up and unsafe on block
--Power Wave is awful, terrible start-up and tiny hitboxes
--Damage output is bad without Meter/Drive
--Neomax won't juggle consistently at all places on the screen
PROS:
--New target combo helps him with an easy confirm
--Standing D improved, supposedly
--Buster Wolf is still a good DM
Few things I'd like to say is that Terry's cons aren't as bad as you're saying they are and there are more PROs to playing Terry. Even if someone can low B it even some of the best will get hit with Crackshoot unless they expect it, or atleast block it. He has a number of ways to work it into his blockstrings. That's a frame trap. Even if there's a risk involved, it's a huge advantage.
His normal pokes are not slow. Most of his close moves or his st.B are relatively fast. There might be some normals that can beat it, but it's definitely not bad. His st.B has huge range and can poke people even farther than Daimon, and he has really high range. Couple that into being able to cancel into regular crackshoot, EX Crackshoot, Power Wave, or any DM, that's not a bad poke. St.C, st.D even far C are super cancellable and can be used as pokes. St.C and st.D are not bad on block which for some characters could mean a free combo if they don't cancel it.
Burn knuckle is bad on block, but if spaced properly, you can't be easily punished for it. This is where Power Wave is great. If you're not just using the same string over and over again, you can cancel into power wave which is pretty safe on block, but not so much guard roll (That can be said about a lot of characters though). Outside of a blockstring, you can use Burn Knuckle as a neutral game tool to make people respect your air space and hit them out of it. You can use A burn knuckle as a quick traveling tool. Timed properly, Crackshoot is also a decent anti air that if it juggles, you get some follow up potential. His neutral game might not be the best, but it's not bad.
The only legitimate concerns I have with Terry are the fact he can't do much damage without drive meter and his Neomax is still really dumb in a bad way. Other than that, he's definitely not a bad character and certainly not the "worst".
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It's not that I don't think Beni's good, he is. But Bala makes him sound like some kind of unstoppable force, and idk if I'm seeing THAT.
Just depends on who is playing the character, I'm sure Bala or someone of his calibur could make him look top. Like you say Kyo is top tier but even though he is a very solid character I can't say I have seen him dominate in tournaments yet. Sure, Reynald shows us some flash via HD combos but that's about it. Same with Goro, he looked so damn good at NEC but Reynald picked him just once against Bala iirc and never did it again at SCR.
So yeah, the console version is still new and I wouldn't place my bets on any one character just yet. There are a lot of contenders for top tier in this game so far, which is simply awesome.
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Why do a lot of you guys consider Mature a bad character?
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She's not bad, she just has bad Supers.
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She's not bad, she just has bad Supers.
Heaven's Gate (qcb,hcf+k) is not a bad super, and Kula's (and really a lot of supers) supers aren't that great either.
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Yeah, but Mature's EX Super is pretty bad. She relies more on EX and Hyper Drive though, which means she's not bad at all.
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Heaven's Gate (qcb,hcf+k) is not a bad super, and Kula's (and really a lot of supers) supers aren't that great either.
Kula rocks that drive cancel system like its no one's business, its not so much that her supers aren't good its more that she doesn't need them.
Mature is solid but I don't see anything about her that stands out.
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I wonder if most of you guys are basing your theories and experiences off online play rather than offline locals, casuals, tourneys.
Not trying to sound like a dick. It's just that alot of stuff sounds kinda ill-informed and limited, or do you all just not have legit Terry, Kyo, etc. players in your area?
I'll come back and check out these types of threads again after console version has a few majors/large tourneys under it's belt.
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Well, i'll say this, a majority of people in this topic would probably lose to higher end players, and badly. Our opinions, to be quite frank, don't mean jack shit as we can get mauled by any character in this game, but to be honest, on a good day, any character can wreck.
Shit won't really gel until a year down the road. Figuring out the best after a while, quite easy, figuring out how the rest stack up eventually, much tougher. New things are figured out, new options explored, new things discovered. Can't be done that quickly.
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I am predicting that a year from now Shen will be considered lower than he's generally considered now, and Joe will be considered higher.
I think that right now everyone's impressed by Shen's high damage and high abare, but he really lacks tools to open people up since the console changes. His jump-ins have to be done extremely late (later than most of the cast) if he wants to combo off of them, making him extra susceptible to anti air. His c.B,c.C link is not terribly reliable as it's a very tight link with extremely close range requirements, and his only other decent low option involves having full HD gauge. His overhead is unsafe at all points now, even the EX version. He eats a full combo (often to death) if he attempts any sort of overhead and gets it wrong. So his low options and overhead options are lacking. His grab is solid, but it's not enough to make him high tier. His defensive options without meter? None. He's pretty much completely free to pressure against if he doesn't have at least the meter to guard cancel. I would like to say he's middle. He has pros and cons, and when your only pro is "lol damage", then that's not good enough, because the entire cast can deal crazy damage.
Joe is a fairly complex character with potential that's not been tapped, particularly in the corner combo department. Just wait a few more months and I'm betting that people will have figured him out a fair bit more. Right now I think people just compare him to Hwa, and he's not as strong as Hwa, but he's still got some tools that Hwa does not, like zoning.
That's my rant. Certainly lots of characters will be shifting around the tier lists over the next 6 months, but those are my predictions right now.
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Except...Joe's Corner Combo hasn't really changed since Arcade, and until now we've seen, what, maybe a few Joes can actually use his corner crap to its fullest potential. To do perfect mash inputs multiple times, and have it be a different number of inputs every so often is extremely tough to keep up.
But you are right in the assumption that Joe will probably look a lot better later as more people learn to actually use him.
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Joe is a fairly complex character with potential that's not been tapped, particularly in the corner combo department. Just wait a few more months and I'm betting that people will have figured him out a fair bit more. Right now I think people just compare him to Hwa, and he's not as strong as Hwa, but he's still got some tools that Hwa does not, like zoning.
As has been commented by Dune, Joe's corner combo is still legit, the problem is the change in meter gain your opponent gets when hit in the console version. Doing these combos that last forever is just going to fill up your opponent's power gauge in no time.
As for Shen, he will always be considered strong. His damage output is just that good, and the main difference between arcade and console is the loss of the guard break on the charge punch. That's about it, not like anyone spammed those overheads with him before. If you look at the arcade version matches you will see that his overall game plan is still valid in the console version. Heck he even got a great buff in the form of the cancellable command grab (which lets him do a really easy and really short 100% combo in the corner using HD and 4 bars).
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Well, i'll say this, a majority of people in this topic would probably lose to higher end players, and badly. Our opinions, to be quite frank, don't mean jack shit as we can get mauled by any character in this game, but to be honest, on a good day, any character can wreck.
Shit won't really gel until a year down the road. Figuring out the best after a while, quite easy, figuring out how the rest stack up eventually, much tougher. New things are figured out, new options explored, new things discovered. Can't be done that quickly.
True, but the Kuroda defense doesn't quite work. Just because a top player can easily destroy one of us scrubs doesn't mean that bad matchups and handicaps still don't exist.
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Well, i'll say this, a majority of people in this topic would probably lose to higher end players, and badly. Our opinions, to be quite frank, don't mean jack shit as we can get mauled by any character in this game, but to be honest, on a good day, any character can wreck.
Shit won't really gel until a year down the road. Figuring out the best after a while, quite easy, figuring out how the rest stack up eventually, much tougher. New things are figured out, new options explored, new things discovered. Can't be done that quickly.
True, but the Kuroda defense doesn't quite work. Just because a top player can easily destroy one of use scrubs doesn't mean that bad matchups and handicaps still don't exist.
I wasn't trying to use the Kuroda defense at all. I was saying, most of us in this thread have absolutely no business talking about a tier list when we'd get destroyed by any really good player using any character. Lower level players, we probably get beat by characters that are better while requiring a lower level of entry. We don't really have the experience or the ability necessary in order to properly deduce a tier list.
Like me for example, what right could I possibly have to say I know as much as a Bala or someone on his level? I haven't played on his level or his level of competition as much, I haven't faced as much variety, I haven't played the game as long, so what point is my opinion compared to someone like him?
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As for Shen, he will always be considered strong. His damage output is just that good, and the main difference between arcade and console is the loss of the guard break on the charge punch. That's about it, not like anyone spammed those overheads with him before. If you look at the arcade version matches you will see that his overall game plan is still valid in the console version. Heck he even got a great buff in the form of the cancellable command grab (which lets him do a really easy and really short 100% combo in the corner using HD and 4 bars).
The fact is that he lost a safe overhead launcher, and he needs it in the console version more than ever now that hitstun on his jump-ins has been drastically reduced. He got nerfed harder than almost anyone with the console changes. His dash-punch cancel is a little faster, but it doesn't give him much. It does help his running EX grab setups a bit, though. He can be grabbed after dash-punch, making him terrible at locking down anyone who has a decent command grab. His grab got slowed down so that he can't even use it on wakeup anymore, meaning he has no defensive options without using meter. The cancellable grab is not really a significant buff at all since you have to be in HD mode before doing it to really combo after it effectively, plus it has a huge startup if you don't use the EX version, which you could combo off of already in the arcade. The cancellable grab is really only meant for a meterless grab->DM option. Using it in HD mode is a bit of a waste since he can already get over 1k damage for 3 meter, but lots of characters can do this. In KOF XIII having big damage is really not all that special, everyone has it. The top tier characters in this game should be characters with lots of solid tools, not just one.
I'm not saying that Shen is bad, but he's not as good as people seem to think right now. I just don't think he has much room to improve from where he is currently, and he has nowhere to go but down. He's one of the simplest characters in the game in terms of what you have to know in order to play him, so people think he's really strong right now. But that's a really bad thing in the long run. I'm just thinking that he'll be mid or high-mid at best eventually, since his only really strong tool now is his EX grab and c.Bx3->HD combo.
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Here is mine!
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trog1vie627we97693b74z9d82nacfml3nliboeadzfo6d9xbae93zcb88ka7gj5dcoqa5a05ugu57hsev6zdjizbs7r6nambtjwatow4e8maqmy2gcbdtgo80oy8jb18p9h3thx49jp3200im-bk6-naKy0 (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trog1vie627we97693b74z9d82nacfml3nliboeadzfo6d9xbae93zcb88ka7gj5dcoqa5a05ugu57hsev6zdjizbs7r6nambtjwatow4e8maqmy2gcbdtgo80oy8jb18p9h3thx49jp3200im-bk6-naKy0)
I'm not even sure if i'm reading this right...
hahaaa, lol! nothing special, just a quick idea of it...
(but yeah, Mature, Raiden, Chin prolly needs little climb... lol, will adjust that later...)
But you are right in the assumption that Joe will probably look a lot better later as more people learn to actually use him.
Right, thinking the same.
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As for Shen, he will always be considered strong. His damage output is just that good, and the main difference between arcade and console is the loss of the guard break on the charge punch. That's about it, not like anyone spammed those overheads with him before. If you look at the arcade version matches you will see that his overall game plan is still valid in the console version. Heck he even got a great buff in the form of the cancellable command grab (which lets him do a really easy and really short 100% combo in the corner using HD and 4 bars).
The fact is that he lost a safe overhead launcher, and he needs it in the console version more than ever now that hitstun on his jump-ins has been drastically reduced. He got nerfed harder than almost anyone with the console changes. He can also be grabbed after dash-punch now, making him far worse at locking down anyone who has a decent command grab. The cancellable grab is not really a significant buff at all since you have to be in HD mode before doing it to really combo after it effectively, plus it has a huge startup if you don't use the EX version, which you could combo off of already in the arcade. The cancellable grab is really only meant for a meterless grab->DM option. Using it in HD mode is a bit of a waste since he can already get over 1k damage for 3 meter, but lots of characters can do this. In KOF XIII having big damage is really not all that special, everyone has it. The top tier characters in this game should be characters with lots of solid tools, not just one.
Command grab is viable in combos outside of HD. sC, f+B, command grab, super does great damage for little meter.
Its been a while since I've watched arcade matches but I can't remember the command overhead and dash punches being terribly safe. I think you should find Shen matches and study up, his moves weren't spammable in the arcade version. It was all about that j.CD lol. And everyone needs to land deeper to be able to combo after a jump in in the console version, that's one of the changes to the game system from the arcade version.
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He had frame advantage on his overhead in the arcade. Now he eats a full combo. Also that combo into grab gives him no new tools at all. It's not about damage, it's about tools, and that's what he lacks. Yes he gets high damage from random hits, but he has a VERY hard time actually landing those hits compared to characters with safe rushdown and good pressure tools or strong mixups. Iori gets nearly the same damage that Shen does, but he also gets safe lockdown, a safe overhead that leads to 1k+ damage, way better hitstun on jump-ins, he builds meter more quickly and he has very solid combos from low without using full HD (though he could use HD if he wants to deal 1k damage from a low like Shen). Iori also has a 2 frame EX grab that's invulnerable on the first frame which gives him nearly as damaging a combo as Shen gets. Iori also can get resets off of his qcb+C or his command grab. I just don't think that trading off options for damage is a good idea. We'll see in a year who stays at the top and who gets dropped down once people learn matchups.
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I wasn't trying to use the Kuroda defense at all. I was saying, most of us in this thread have absolutely no business talking about a tier list when we'd get destroyed by any really good player using any character. Lower level players, we probably get beat by characters that are better while requiring a lower level of entry. We don't really have the experience or the ability necessary in order to properly deduce a tier list.
Like me for example, what right could I possibly have to say I know as much as a Bala or someone on his level? I haven't played on his level or his level of competition as much, I haven't faced as much variety, I haven't played the game as long, so what point is my opinion compared to someone like him?
True, but by talking about it maybe then we can figure something out and engage the gdlk players to give their 2 cents? All of this shit has to start somewhere, maybe this thread is going somewhere or maybe it isn't? There has to be a spark.
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He had frame advantage on his overhead in the arcade. Now he eats a full combo. Also that combo into grab gives him no new tools at all. It's not about damage, it's about tools, and that's what he lacks. Yes he gets high damage from random hits, but he has a VERY hard time actually landing those hits compared to characters with safe rushdown and good pressure tools or strong mixups. Iori gets nearly the same damage that Shen does, but he also gets safe lockdown, a safe overhead that leads to 1k+ damage, way better hitstun on jump-ins, he builds meter more quickly and he has very solid combos from low without using full HD (though he could use HD if he wants to deal 1k damage from a low like Shen). Iori also has a 2 frame EX grab that's invulnerable on the first frame which gives him nearly as damaging a combo as Shen gets.
Kyo is one of the most solid characters in the game, going by what we've seen so far, yet each and every one of his moves is unsafe on block aside from the fireball (if used in a block string). So what?
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Aaaaaaand the only thing that Shen has over Kyo is higher damage off his command grab. Kyo wins in every other aspect by a mile. Like I said, -one- good tool does not make a high tier character. Kyo has an invulnerable shoryu, a fireball for safe lockdown, way stronger jump-ins, a better overhead, way better options from a low, just as much damage during HD mode and builds meter way faster. He also has a command grab if he needs it, he just doesn't get as much from it.
The biggest thing of all is that he has all of these options (save for the grab) when he's got no meter. Put Shen into a match with no meter and his damage is suddenly negligible, his defensive options are 0 and he doesn't build meter particularly quickly. Yes, I know he's an anchor, but what if he has to take out more than one character?
And not every character got hit the same amount in terms of the nerfs to hitstun from jump-ins. Shen has probably some of the very worst hitstun from his jump-ins. It makes hyperhops very risky compared to many other characters. Only j.CD has solid blockstun now.
Though I admit I have forgotten one of Shen's best tools. When he has 2 stock, nobody ever dares to jump in on him or do anything that telegraphs even a little bit, because his EXDM is 2 frames and causes wallbounce. This is a devastating tool, but again, requires lots of meter.
Shen is solid with meter, yes, but he's not always going to have meter. The top 10 characters will end up being ones that are strong with meter, but are also strong without it.
I would have to say that I mostly agree with Ky0's tier list, aside from the shockingly low placement of Goro and Chin. I also would think that Mature is around low-mid... not quite the worst pick in the game. Though I can understand rating her low. Chin and Goro, though?
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Did I say he was better than Kyo? No. You were complaining about lack of unsafe spammable moves and I showed you its not necessary.
Bad defense is the point of Shen, ever since he was introduced in 2003. You're either attacking or finished. If you want invincible DPs and fireballs then you are playing the wrong character. Just switch.
EDIT: And what is this about bad jump in hit stun? I'm not very good at comboing from jumpins in this game yet but I just took him to practice and was able to combo jC into sC and jA into sC like 7 times in a row.
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Did I say he was better than Kyo? No. You were complaining about lack of unsafe spammable moves and I showed you its not necessary.
Bad defense is the point of Shen, ever since he was introduced in 2003. You're either attacking or finished. If you want invincible DPs and fireballs then you are playing the wrong character. Just switch.
EDIT: And what is this about bad jump in hit stun? I'm not very good at comboing from jumpins in this game yet but I just took him to practice and was able to combo jC into sC and jA into sC like 7 times in a row.
My issue is that he's not really on the same level as Kyo at all, yet many tier lists have him close.
As for his jump-in problems, yeah, jump-in combos can obviously be done easily, and the issue is not the difficulty of it, it's the fact that he has to stick out his normals so extremely late during his jump-ins that he's more susceptible to anti-air normals than most other characters. And yes, I'm saying that because Shen has poor defensive tools, he's not high tier. I'm certain that he'll end up being considered middle by most people eventually. Right now most of the tier lists I've seen have him at like... A Tier, or within top 5~10 characters. I'm not saying he's bad, just that he's average. He has strengths and weaknesses. But also when he lost a fairly large portion of his offensive capabilities in the console nerfs it hurt him quite a bit. Many of the characters got substantial buffs. He's really easy and fun to play, so he's popular, and people are doing well right now, but once the matchup is well known, he'll certainly drop. He also suffers greatly from some poor matchups vs characters with strong normals to beat his own, and grapplers.
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Just out of curiosity, how high would you place Shen in the arcade version?
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As for his jump-in problems, yeah, jump-in combos can obviously be done easily, and the issue is not the difficulty of it, it's the fact that he has to stick out his normals so extremely late during his jump-ins that he's more susceptible to anti-air normals than most other characters.
Air D->stand C is a really easy link on Shen, doesn't need to be that deep at all.
I think it's too early to speculate on tiers but I think Robert is going to be up there when all the dust settles. Command grab, non-directional command crossup, can jump off walls, two speeds of fireballs, dp, dive kick, gen'eikyaku and hien shippuukyaku, two command normals that link into each other and decent normals in general. He might not have the best dp or the best fireball, but the sheer multitude of options he has available is pretty crazy. He's easily the most well rounded character in the game. I recommend him to everyone who's new because he's so good and versatile.
I also think King is pretty high tier.
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Kyo is one of the most solid characters in the game, going by what we've seen so far, yet each and every one of his moves is unsafe on block aside from the fireball (if used in a block string). So what?
That is the problem nowadays. It is usefull to make a technical analisys of the frames and stuff like that, but that is not the final word on how a character works.
It's like reading a book about basketball and playing it.
I read many people arguing stuff like "this movement is no safe on block, he is low tier", your example of Kyo proves that's full of shit.
I guess every DP and Flashkick (no matter wich) are bullshit because they are not safe on block, right?
In a fighting game you need to understand exactly how attacks work, WHEN to use them and how, distance is also a key factor for certain attacks, as well as timming.
Terry low tier, ha ha, some people just don´t have a clue about how to play this game.
Jenny, you are right, Robert is also extrematelly solid, but since you don´t see an easy HD loop or something that looks like Raiden's arcade DK people just think he is trash. Again, they don´t know how to play the game, I still remember everyone been afraid of EX Iori being broken, ha ha.
Leona is another character that I never saw too many matches, but I always though in this game she can be very dangerous in the right hands. She will have some tough match ups wich will really imply using her in totally different ways but still, I would like to see how she develops in a couple of months.
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This tier list maker is really impressive basically we can put the characters in Quadrants each quadrant will represent a rank.
Quadrant 1-Top Right or S Rank
Quadrant 2 -Top Left or A Rank
Quadrant 3- Bottom Right or B Rank
Quadrant 4- Bottom Left or C Rank
Post some hypothetical list and we will discuss a character which may have different positions in each list I'll try to post my own and try to see where you would rank a specific character.
http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trh02am5256h4k8g4mgte96i2skxeej6g460d6n0eliz49h0c6aa4mmkcngw48a4b9kjadkscia52uifaiirc7chbdgufzizea84b8mqagc84rdo2x63b8kd27lbgdgfad892tbu2vim2900j6-bk6-napowefercs (http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof13/index.html#trh02am5256h4k8g4mgte96i2skxeej6g460d6n0eliz49h0c6aa4mmkcngw48a4b9kjadkscia52uifaiirc7chbdgufzizea84b8mqagc84rdo2x63b8kd27lbgdgfad892tbu2vim2900j6-bk6-napowefercs)
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As of now most of us agree that EX Iori and Normal Kyo is pretty much top tier. With EX Iori having incredible damage setup from meterless combos from his rekkas, his OTGs and his command grabs (the EX Kototsuki In and Scum Gale) give lots of reset, and OTG opportunies. Normal Kyo has a lot of tools in his disposal that even with the loss of his safe Kotutsuki You he still is strong with impressive normals, hit confirms and strong metered or meterless combos at his disposal. HD well all characters are beasts with HD. BUT Tier lists are not set in stone and seeing these two are the most popular characters the matchup will be very familiar. Sorry for wall of text but I have a feeling that Claw Iori might go lower he seems to be one dimensional. That's just me and I main Claw Iori with Fireball Kyo and Yuri.
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As for his jump-in problems, yeah, jump-in combos can obviously be done easily, and the issue is not the difficulty of it, it's the fact that he has to stick out his normals so extremely late during his jump-ins that he's more susceptible to anti-air normals than most other characters.
Air D->stand C is a really easy link on Shen, doesn't need to be that deep at all.
I think it's too early to speculate on tiers but I think Robert is going to be up there when all the dust settles. Command grab, non-directional command crossup, can jump off walls, two speeds of fireballs, dp, dive kick, gen'eikyaku and hien shippuukyaku, two command normals that link into each other and decent normals in general. He might not have the best dp or the best fireball, but the sheer multitude of options he has available is pretty crazy. He's easily the most well rounded character in the game. I recommend him to everyone who's new because he's so good and versatile.
I also think King is pretty high tier.
I can agree that Robert is fairly underappreciated right now. His tools are really varied, he just lacks damage. If people figured out some great new ways to deal damage with him... he could easily rise to the top. I don't think that'll happen really, but I still think there's no way that a character with so many options can be bad.
And as for Shen in the arcade, I would put him probably in the top 10, but not the top 5. He's gotten fairly hard nerfs from the arcade version, and most of the rest of the cast got substantial buffs. Now I would put him in the top 15, but not the top 10.
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I also think King is pretty high tier.
Compared to her 2002UM version (who was top tier or at least A class IMO), she pretty weak in this. She is only good for zoning, while I feel her close range abilities and options are lacking because she doesn't have that proximity command throw, nor does she have her standing overhead.
The only problems I have with Billy is his F+A with is safe on block and he can recovery quick after it. Online you can basically spam that move, and if someone tries to jump you can ex dp K, and that move is safe on block too (if you block it, someone can throw out his d.b's), so you gotta move outta the way before he lands. His J.CD has good priority as well as his J.C which has good range diagonally.
I wish Robert had his F+A overhead like he had in past games, that would really help h
is offensive options. Plus I wish his hcf K didn't have so much slow start up, and didn't actually have an whiff animation.
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Shen was easily top five in the arcade version, he was used far more than Kyo, Iori and Elizabeth. And to be honest if I had to gauge who delivered the most pain overall during my 1+ year of watching match vids it would probably be him.
Compared to her 2002UM version (who was top tier or at least A class IMO), she pretty weak in this. She is only good for zoning, while I feel her close range abilities and options are lacking because she doesn't have that proximity command throw, nor does she have her standing overhead.
King has excellent close range pressure thanks to her df+D and fireball, she can really lock ppl down. She also benefits heavily from the drive cancel system. What makes her solid is that she can be very effective at close range and at the same time has one of the best zoning games of the cast. Easily has one of the best low hitting attacks in the game imo, df+D is fast, combos and makes her hit box low enough to make it a good anti-air.
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Shen was easily top five in the arcade version, he was used far more than Kyo, Iori and Elizabeth. And to be honest if I had to gauge who delivered the most pain overall during my 1+ year of watching match vids it would probably be him.
Compared to her 2002UM version (who was top tier or at least A class IMO), she pretty weak in this. She is only good for zoning, while I feel her close range abilities and options are lacking because she doesn't have that proximity command throw, nor does she have her standing overhead.
King has excellent close range pressure thanks to her df+D and fireball, she can really lock ppl down. She also benefits heavily from the drive cancel system. What makes her solid is that she can be very effective at close range and at the same time has one of the best zoning games of the cast. Easily has one of the best low hitting attacks in the game imo, df+D is fast, combos and makes her hit box low enough to make it a good anti-air.
I think King's slide into fire ball is good but you can guard cancel roll for max punishment since you're rolling behind her if it's in the corner. I think she's good but I kind of agree with Desmond about King's close range game.
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Just check out some high level King play, like the Answer's at NEC or Bala's in the arcade version, and you'll see what I mean about her close range game. Its what makes her dangerous.
Its all about mixing it up, if you do the same df+D into fireball all day of course you will get punished. Its worth mentioning that the opponent does need meter to punish.
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I was there when I saw the Answer play during NEC (one man hype guy), but look at it this way. Jwongg and Banana Ken were new to the game so they had no idea how to deal with her. But lets say if the skill level between both players were high and one was a King player the other player will have better options since he knows how to play against her. Not disagreeing with you or anything but her pressure is far from perfect. Much respect to the Answer though.
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No one's pressure is perfect, kinda the point of balance. You gotta take the good and work around the bad.
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Still though getting GC roll while the fireball comes out may be a gamble but it can change the tide of the match. Also since meter building is faster I think King player will be better off zoning and capitalizing on mistakes but that's my opinion. Let's see how her strategy develops later on.
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Just check out some high level King play, like the Answer's at NEC or Bala's in the arcade version, and you'll see what I mean about her close range game. Its what makes her dangerous.
Its all about mixing it up, if you do the same df+D into fireball all day of course you will get punished. Its worth mentioning that the opponent does need meter to punish.
Actually, because st.B, df+D xx Venom Strike usually produces a Trap Shot accidentally, most players delay the df+D xx Venom Strike so its timed as a late cancel. This gives the player enough time to return the stick to neutral and perform the Venom Strike correctly. The magic of this is that late cancelling the df+D doesn't affect whether the Venom Strike combos or not, because the slide itself has such great hit-stun.
There is a gap between the slide and the late cancel Venom Strike. If you perform an invincible move during this time, you beat King's Venom Strike (1 frame throws can work too). If the King DOES NOT like to late cancel during blockstrings and you attempt a reversal, nothing will come out because it is a TRUE blockstring. Essentially, it's like a ghetto option select - it carries no real risk for the defender of King's pressure. Reward if it's late cancelled, continued block if its immediately cancelled.
King's post Venom Strike (on block) pressure is fairly weak as well. st.C and st.D are both jump checks, and completely whiff on crouchers. Not to mention she is not at frame advantage after one of her blockstrings. With this in mind, most character's cr.Bs either beat King's next move or avoid her jump checks and punish her. Before I forget, she's absolutely horrid on defense as well. EX Trap Shot is the only tool that can save her from overwhelming pressure.
edit: But I still think she's high tier. Amazing zoning, great mobility, annoying pressure, one of the best fireballs, great metered moves, good corner game, good meterless anti-air, and Slide!
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I think King is mid high personally. Zoning is her strongest suite but to do serious damage she needs meter.
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It's all about multiple options, I'd say. If you opponent is blocking your normals all day, you can do her proximity throw, or empty jump into it. Plus, if she had her standing overhead, it would be a great mixup tool from her df+D.
Yeah, can do what she can with what she has now close range, but if she had what she has in 2002UM with what she has now, she would be a MONSTER. She now almost like a stripped down version of how she was in 98UM (EX King) but with just more zoning capabilities.
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Desmond in 2k2 um does King far C hit crouchers or does it whiff?
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As of now most of us agree that EX Iori and Normal Kyo is pretty much top tier. With EX Iori having incredible damage setup from meterless combos from his rekkas, his OTGs and his command grabs (the EX Kototsuki In and Scum Gale) give lots of reset, and OTG opportunies. Normal Kyo has a lot of tools in his disposal that even with the loss of his safe Kotutsuki You he still is strong with impressive normals, hit confirms and strong metered or meterless combos at his disposal. HD well all characters are beasts with HD. BUT Tier lists are not set in stone and seeing these two are the most popular characters the matchup will be very familiar. Sorry for wall of text but I have a feeling that Claw Iori might go lower he seems to be one dimensional. That's just me and I main Claw Iori with Fireball Kyo and Yuri.
I don't agree with that. Kyo yes, I've been saying he's probably the best in the game (new tech and Mr. Karate notwithstanding) but EX Iori has and is still a bit overhyped. He's a very solid character but like I've been saying, I don't think he takes complete advantage of the XIII system which limits him a bit.
Claw Iori is a bit one-dimensional, but when he can perform that dimension so well, it doesn't matter. He's usually put at anchor, where zoners are rarely put other than maybe King, so any weakness against that is limited. He does ridiculous damage that's hard to drop, and many ways to put you into that damage. When he's in on you, it's not a matter of if he will open you up, it's a matter of when, and when he does, you're dead. Game's never out of grasp as long as he's on the end of your team.
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Has anyone played with Nests Kyo yet. Im sure majority of people are playing on the PS3 however if any of you have him for the 360. Wouldn't you mind explaining how hes different from his other iterations, compare him to XIII Kyo and or how he stands in the tier list.
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He's 98 Kyo only with Orochinagi back and a NeoMax and the ability to combo Aragami off of lights.
And he's not as good as XIII Kyo. I like playing him more, but XIII Kyo laps him pretty easily.
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EX Kyo as of now has a lot of bad matchups mainly RED Kick vs. Grapplers is pretty much dead EX Kyo. ;)
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Yeah...but why exactly would you use a RED Kick against a grappler in a first place?
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Going back to the Terry discussion, I don't think Terry is bad. He just doesn't have anything super good in comparison to the rest of the cast. A lot of his stuff is risky, too. I saw someone talking about using A Burn Knuckle to close space, but if someone neutral jumps when you do that, you're going to eat a full jump combo. I played a guy who used A Burn Knuckle a lot, and it's hard to punish when spaced right, but if you use it too much, you'll get countered for much more damage than what you're dealing with Burn Knuckles.
Overall, Terry is pretty underwhelming. He's easy to play and can do good damage. Outside of that, most of his tools just aren't that great when you compare them to other characters' movesets. It's just one of those cases where you'd have a hard time convincing someone to pick him over another character. He can still win, though.
Saitsuofleaves comment about tiers being irrelevant for us because we aren't high level enough is actually pretty important. Tier lists really only matter when players are at a high level of play and understanding. Everyone else would benefit more from just getting better first. Learn the game, learn your characters, learn the matchups. Then you can worry about tier lists.
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Hence Terry is low tier because he is underwhelming and he lacks some tools needed in desperate situations. He is solid yes but not solid enough to claim a top tier place. But that doesn't mean that you should retract from using him.
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Sounds like we can determine how balanced the game is by looking at the number of Terrys placing in tournaments.
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Unfortunately, KOF players will tier whore regardless of how balanced a game is.
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^
Somewhat. In my experience from playing 98 and 02 on GGPO most of the players, like 9 times out of 10 have at least one S tier character on their team and the rest are personal favorites. I should know from the many times I come so close to beating a Brazillian dude and I get OCV'd by Angel. :(
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^^ This in a PS2 KOF2k2UM Tougeki Edition Casuals in my place my friends pick K', Kasumi and King some Namelesses are there you would be disgusted at the mirror matches. I use K' since he was my favorite in 99 onwards but since his dominance in 2k2UM and Arcade XIII I have abandoned him.
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^^ This in a PS2 KOF2k2UM Tougeki Edition Casuals in my place my friends pick K', Kasumi and King some Namelesses are there you would be disgusted at the mirror matches. I use K' since he was my favorite in 99 onwards but since his dominance in 2k2UM and Arcade XIII I have abandoned him.
K' is in a good spot right now in XIII though, I would not call anyone using him a tier whore. If someone had both normal Kyo and EX Iori, that would be the closest thing to tier whoring in XIII right now... but even then I don't think I would feel cheated if they beat me with those characters.
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There is no tier whoring in XIII right now period. Don't even think, don't consider it, even as a fleeting notion. Can't tier whore in something where a viable tier list does not exist at the moment and again, probably won't for another 3 months minimum.
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The Tiers shuffle alot since everyone is good. There are general consent on who are top, like XIII Kyo, EX Iori and Saiki. But down the line it'll probably it'll probably change who know, those character were not like K(arcade) Raiden(arcade) and Elizabeth(arcade) whicn were top pretty much in the begining. I honestly don't care about tiers atm since I'm playing the majority of the cast. I see why people like Ash. He is pretty fun in a lame kinda way :).
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See, people always say general consensus, and yet it's still not the case but let's find out the case right now and poll people on who would be their top 3. No other tiers, don't care about the other characters, just a poll on people's top 3 right now, tally it up and let's have an ACTUAL true consensus, because I'm tired of people throwing it out there like that when it's probably not the case.
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No point to it really, tiers will be determined by the top players anyway.
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I guess using consensus is a strong word for a few. Just read my above post as an opinion by a lowly member lol.
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No point to it really, tiers will be determined by the top players anyway.
And top players will pick who they want anyway, so I'll repeat what I've said for weeks, FUCK TIERS.
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Top players play to win. They will pick anyone they believe is good and give them the most chance of winning. They don't just pick random characters that they happen to like just because they are good players and can play anybody.
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Top players play to win. They will pick anyone they believe is good and give them the most chance of winning. They don't just pick random characters that they happen to like just because they are good players and can play anybody.
But again, they play who they want. Tiers in this game are nowhere near defined enough to make an honest to goodness Tier Whore pick. At best, you have counter picking, which isn't related to tiers, and that still can be avoided with proper order select moves.
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They don't play who they want. They tried a lot of characters and tried to find which ones are the best and suit them better. They're not "oh , I like Kula , I'm gonna use her for tournaments" .
Even if we have no defined tier list so far, they aren't just going to pick random characters that they happen to like. They will only pick a character if they believe that character is strong enough for competitive play.
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And from the top players I know, from their perspective there ISN'T a character that's not strong enough for competitive play.
But please, since you're obviously a top player, tell me who's not worthy of even being used in competitive play.
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There are characters that definitely are worse than some , and those characters won't end up played a lot, it's pretty much a fact.
Of course every character is great in the right hands, especially due to how ridiculously fast you gain meter in KoF XIII, that doesn't mean all of them are as good as the top characters and can compete against them without being at a disadvantage.
Tiers matter. No competitive player plays a character simply because they like the character, they play that character because that character is good enough to face anyone in the cast without being at a significant disadvantage.
All the characters in XIII arcades were "strong enough to compete" too, all of them certainly were good and weren't lacking tools. Why do you think everyone picked K' and Raiden ?
Do you seriously believe that people won't pick the top tiers in console XIII just because "everyone is strong enough to compete" ?
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^^ This in a PS2 KOF2k2UM Tougeki Edition Casuals in my place my friends pick K', Kasumi and King some Namelesses are there you would be disgusted at the mirror matches. I use K' since he was my favorite in 99 onwards but since his dominance in 2k2UM and Arcade XIII I have abandoned him.
This kind of thinking boggles my mind. You refuse to play one of your favorite characters because he's good? There's nothing dishonorable or whatever about picking good characters in a fighting game. And unless you're winning every single tournament ever, the idea that you are challenging yourself by picking low tier characters doesn't really apply.
Like saitsuofleaves said, the tiers aren't very defined at this point in the game anyway so pick who you want to pick. I personally tend to pick characters I have the most fun with, mainly because I tend to win more if it's a character I like to play.
I also think tier lists are a good thing if for no other reason than it creates good discussion about character's weaknesses and strengths.
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There are characters that definitely are worse than some , and those characters won't end up played a lot, it's pretty much a fact.
Of course every character is great in the right hands, especially due to how ridiculously fast you gain meter in KoF XIII, that doesn't mean all of them are as good as the top characters and can compete against them without being at a disadvantage.
Tiers matter. No competitive player plays a character simply because they like the character, they play that character because that character is good enough to face anyone in the cast without being in a significant disadvantage.
All the characters in XIII arcades were "strong enough to compete" too, why do you think everyone picked K' and Raiden ?
Do you seriously believe that people won't pick the top tiers in console XIII just because "everyone is strong enough to compete" ?
Fine whatever, I give up, you win. Everyone will tier whore, I obviously know nothing. You win, everyone will pick the top tiers, and there's nothing to stop it, so we might as well head it off at the curve.
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Of course everyone will pick the top tiers. That happens in every single fighting game , no matter how balanced it is.
Perfect balance doesn't exist to just allow players to pick anyone they like and compete with that character.
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You're right. I was completely wrong and wasted your precious time and for that I apologize for doing that by bringing up such a shitty argument.
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I know I am~
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Well, there's something to be said for personal tastes.
Do tiers matter? Well, hell yes, of course they do. I just think that personal preference plays an even bigger part. If you have no passion for the characters you play, then you aren't going to have a passion for the game either.
In the end, I think that it's all just a matter of getting lucky. Did you put in work with characters you loved and then they turned out to be top tier? Lucky! Congratulations, the world is your oyster. Did you put in work with characters you loved and then they turned out to be low tier? Sucks to be you! Now you have to decide - am I going to start all over from scratch playing characters I don't like just because they're good, or am I going to stick with the low tiers I have experience with and enjoy?
In any case, dropping a top tier character you love just because that character is top tier is probably the stupidest thing I've heard since SOPA.
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Just pull off a umvc 3, place 2 characters you like then pick Wesker (aka anybody that is braindead good ;)).
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You're right. I was completely wrong and wasted your precious time and for that I apologize for doing that by bringing up such a shitty argument.
Jesus, you're salty. Is that what you say every time you get straight up facts thrown at your face? It's true though, top players will only play who they think is the best, and fits their playstyle.
If 2 players of the exact same skill level would play against eachother with 2 different characters, then obviously, the player with the better character would win. So yes, tiers do matter. There is no way for every character in a fighting game to be just as good as all the others. There will always be some characters who are better than others. Has it never occured to you, that at tournaments, there are way more high tiers than low tiers?
Oh, btw, you obviously didn't mean anything you said in this quoted post, so please, feel free to throw all of your extremely valid arguments out here. I would love to read how terribly wrong you are.
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cmon lets not make this a salty thread please :(
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I'm not. I would simply love to know how tier lists could possibly not matter.
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It matters but KOF13 tier is still not as refined as other tittles imo. Also you have to consider play style of the player too. Whether they like zoning rushing down etc. Plus meter consumption also determine what character you would end up in your team.
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Yeah... that's exactly what I said.
It doesn't matter that kof doesn't have a valid tier list yet, it's just that this guy honestly believes that it kof doesn't have characters that are better than others, and even if it does, that it doesn't matter, because it all depends on the player. Which is just not true. And if someone tries to prove him wrong, he gets mad and sarcastically admits to everything.
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'Kay.
Tiers are cool and all, but the fact that said top players aren't in mirror matches tells you a lot about the viability of everyone in the cast. Even supposedly low tier. The fact of the matter is there's no huge difference in characters aside from some of their options being entirely braindead. For one, Saitsuofleaves is right when many top players have varying opinions of who is on top. They're really mashed together and the tools necessary to win with a character are not that far away. Having played XIII for a long time, with a characters that have been considered low tier, they can answer a lot of high tier problems.
Definitely, you are right. There are characters who are just braindead and can easily follow a gameplan to victory while putting up a fight. That's baseline until someone understands the gimmick and realizes how much of a gamble it is and how much work it takes to be good with the character. I'll use Kyo as an example. At really high level play, Kyo spends a lot less time throwing out specials and fireballs, and more time using mixups and pressure. The reason being is almost none of his block strings or his specials are safe on block or if you GCAB it. At a mediocre level, Kyo will do fine because someone doesn't understand or have the Kyo experience to fight against it. At the same time, if someone of equal level understands your character even a little bit, and you don't respect it, you're eating a good 40% from anyone. If you're a little higher skill, losing momentum from being thrown out of practically every move you have will suck and even more so with basic cross-up setups.
It is not like Arcade where you had to play the game a completely different way when those characters were on the field. Raiden made you have to pay attention and rush down haphazardly to do as much damage as possible and you'd need to spend meter to get K' pressure off of you. If he touched you, he did near 50% for very little or no meter. This is much different, much more balanced, and makes you respect every character. Even someone as low as Terry. The way I look at the tier list, you can assume the list is right for Day 1 players or immensely high level play. If not, you will barely notice the weaknesses lower characters have.
That's proof enough right there. I can understand if you want to look at tiers to see who will be the easiest person to play (seeing as that's about all it is). However, if you're basing your entire character choice on these characters, and you expect to easily win, that's a bad idea. I'd suggest pick top tier if you don't know how to play really well or you're not sure of your match-up.
As much as people keep yelling and clinging to who's EZ mode, the game's still plenty balanced. So smacking Saitsuofleaves down for saying tiers don't matter is totally unnecessary.
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The more unbalanced a fighting game is, the more the tier list matters. And to an extent, I'd say it matters in every fighting game anyway.
HOWEVER
99% of the people who look at tier lists are trash at the game and the information on it doesn't apply to them. They'd be better off picking a character they enjoy and learning basics that way, rather than thinking the character they pick has suddenly made them better. Even worse, let's say you pick a top tier character and start beating people... Does the learning stop? You have no reason not to learn every character if you're competitive.
Unless you're lazy and just want the "easy" way out. Lo and behold, lookie here! A list of the "best" characters!
Buncha scrubs. (Talking to scrubs in general, not the fine people in this thread)
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I disagree some, a tier list is useful for someone who is new to the game and wants to be competitive. It gives them a hint which characters you have to gameplan against (S+ tier broken characters, which KOFXIII really doesn't have), and which characters are unviable competitively (those may exist in KOFXIII).
A tier list isn't going to make you a better player though. Also, people do better with certain chars that fit them best.
There's a reason there isn't a JuiceboxBlanka. ^_^
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^If there were, the dance wouldn't make sense lol.
Back to the subject, it's hard to say tiers don't matter but I do agree with Saitsuofleaves. Don't let tiers cloud your judgement. Use the character that feels right.
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'Kay.
Tiers are cool and all, but the fact that said top players aren't in mirror matches tells you a lot about the viability of everyone in the cast. Even supposedly low tier. The fact of the matter is there's no huge difference in characters aside from some of their options being entirely braindead. For one, Saitsuofleaves is right when many top players have varying opinions of who is on top. They're really mashed together and the tools necessary to win with a character are not that far away. Having played XIII for a long time, with a characters that have been considered low tier, they can answer a lot of high tier problems.
Absolutely, but I don't recall disagreeing with this. There are alot of characters with different moves, true. What I want to say about this is, though, that for example:
High tier character A has move A, B, C, and D.
Low tier character A only has moves that can correctly respond to High tier character's A and B move,
Whereas High tier character B can correctly respond to all of High tier character's moves.
With this example in mind, you will most definitely see much more of High tier character A and B, than of Low tier character A. Reason being is that they want to win.
Definitely, you are right. There are characters who are just braindead and can easily follow a gameplan to victory while putting up a fight. That's baseline until someone understands the gimmick and realizes how much of a gamble it is and how much work it takes to be good with the character. I'll use Kyo as an example. At really high level play, Kyo spends a lot less time throwing out specials and fireballs, and more time using mixups and pressure. The reason being is almost none of his block strings or his specials are safe on block or if you GCAB it. At a mediocre level, Kyo will do fine because someone doesn't understand or have the Kyo experience to fight against it. At the same time, if someone of equal level understands your character even a little bit, and you don't respect it, you're eating a good 40% from anyone. If you're a little higher skill, losing momentum from being thrown out of practically every move you have will suck and even more so with basic cross-up setups.
I agree with this. Though, in the modern day fighting games, I don't really consider any character to be a braindead character that leads to automatic victory. I am fully aware of how important a mixup game is.
It is not like Arcade where you had to play the game a completely different way when those characters were on the field. Raiden made you have to pay attention and rush down haphazardly to do as much damage as possible and you'd need to spend meter to get K' pressure off of you. If he touched you, he did near 50% for very little or no meter. This is much different, much more balanced, and makes you respect every character. Even someone as low as Terry. The way I look at the tier list, you can assume the list is right for Day 1 players or immensely high level play. If not, you will barely notice the weaknesses lower characters have.
What I personally see as a huge weakness in a character, is if you don't have a significant advantage on knockdown. I'm not a good KOF player by any means, so correct me if I'm wrong... hell, I probably only played the arcade version for a couple of hours at most. But to me it seems that Yuri puts you back to a very neutral position when you knock the opponent down. That is what I consider to be low tier.
That's proof enough right there. I can understand if you want to look at tiers to see who will be the easiest person to play (seeing as that's about all it is). However, if you're basing your entire character choice on these characters, and you expect to easily win, that's a bad idea. I'd suggest pick top tier if you don't know how to play really well or you're not sure of your match-up.
Yes, that is a very bad idea indeed. But see, I didn't say that the tierlist is all that matters, did I? I also said that the character has to fit your playstyle, for example zoning or rushdown or whatever. If your playstyle is rushdown, and the best character of the game (according to the tierlists) is a zoning character, then, obviously, you should not pick that character.
As much as people keep yelling and clinging to who's EZ mode, the game's still plenty balanced. So smacking Saitsuofleaves down for saying tiers don't matter is totally unnecessary.
Just making this clear, I didn't respond the way I did just because he said that tierlists don't matter. It's the mocking and sarcastic reply he gave Tikok, who was merely trying to prove him wrong, even giving him valid examples, that was ticking me off.
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Tiers may not matter in the grand scheme of things to someone but they do if you follow the competitive scene. You can be an awesome player but if you are using lower tier characters then you sure as heck are working harder for your win. Like that one Japanese Joe player (with the white tiger shorts) that was OCVing K' and Raiden teams in the arcade version.
Now if it matters to you personally that's a whole different thing. I'm still on my quest to learn the entire cast, using a new character or two each or every few days. Getting all their bnb combos and gameplans down. All to eventually main the random select box.
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Like that one Japanese Joe player (with the white tiger shorts) that was OCVing K' and Raiden teams in the arcade version.
haregoro
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It was a shitty argument, and I admitted I'm wrong. If an argument is shitty, then I wasted his time by even bringing it up. It's common fucking sense. I was not mocking him, he killed me in a debate I have no business being in since I'm ass at the game in the first place, so I needed to give him an answer that showed that I was rightfully humiliated.
Fix your fucking sarcasm detector dweebenheimer.
EDIT: Not acceptable. Cool it. - Rex
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Right, I'm just saying there was no need for the debate in the first place. It's perfectly viable to say tiers don't matter and you'd be pretty right. It's also perfectly viable to say tiers are relevant. I just would be happy to see we can have a difference of opinions without killing each other.
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Like that one Japanese Joe player (with the white tiger shorts) that was OCVing K' and Raiden teams in the arcade version.
haregoro
Yeah, him. His Joe and Maxima are crazy good.
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The thing with tier lists is always how they are conceived per region too, or at least how the matchups are considered too, which will be hard considering how matchup varies a lot between position and meter usage
At least I'm fine with tier list like XIII and 2002um, in 98um with krauser was a pain though
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talk about beating a dead horse...
not gonna lie it's pretty funny seeing you guys argue though
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This forum should totally have an SNK Engrish filter that replaces "retard" with "dweebenheimer" and "******" with "crazy funster."
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It was a shitty argument, and I admitted I'm wrong. If an argument is shitty, then I wasted his time by even bringing it up. It's common fucking sense. I was not mocking him, he killed me in a debate I have no business being in since I'm ass at the game in the first place, so I needed to give him an answer that showed that I was rightfully humiliated.
Fix your fucking sarcasm detector dweebenheimer.
EDIT: Not acceptable. Cool it. - Rex
Fine whatever, I give up, you win. Everyone will tier whore, I obviously know nothing. You win, everyone will pick the top tiers, and there's nothing to stop it, so we might as well head it off at the curve.
You're right. I was completely wrong and wasted your precious time and for that I apologize for doing that by bringing up such a shitty argument.
Because this most definitely doesn't sound sarcastic at all.
Hmm Hmmm.
I rest my case~
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This thread is over. Too much flaming, not enough discussion.