Dream Cancel Forum

King of Fighters XIII => Character Discussion => Kim Kaphwan => Topic started by: desmond_kof on December 11, 2011, 08:12:17 AM

Title: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: desmond_kof on December 11, 2011, 08:12:17 AM
Share strats against other characters and your own opinions Kim's overall gameplay pros and cons...his advantages vs his disadvantages. If you would like to contribute your thoughts to his wiki, go to his wiki thread here: http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1688.0 (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1688.0)

thanks!
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: LouisCipher on December 13, 2011, 01:27:17 AM
I think he has a tough time against zoners, which make up roughly a quarter of the cast. That, and he absolutely needs to run 2nd or 3rd because he needs meter to do damage.

Sad to say that I jumped ship from using Kim. I think he would be better if his EX Hangetsuzan went through projectiles and he had an easier time linking into B Hangetsuzan
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Sharnt on December 13, 2011, 02:48:03 PM
Pro :
- Deals more than the average (More than Kyo, less than Iori/Hwa Jai)
- Safe jumps everywhere
- Good frame traps
- Good air control
- Good zoning tools (far.C, far.D especially)


Cons :
- Poor mixups (Except the High/Low after a knockdown)
- Can't deal that much without meter and have a hard time to build any, because he is laking of a practicable safe spacial move
- Higher requirement in terms of execution to do the optimized combo than the majority of the cast (A step aside Ash though)
- Kyo/Hwa Jai are better than him in roughly every situation

That's how i see him for now.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: SwitchPlaya on December 27, 2011, 07:54:28 PM
We need more threads like this with every character anyway i am having trouble with the Kim and King match up it seems that King has a better time controlling the screen ant it seems that she can easily anti air him with her Trap shot i think its called
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: desmond_kof on January 04, 2012, 09:19:49 AM
After playing with Kim for a little bit, I've sort of noticed that he doesn't really have a good standing fast, long poke, similar to his 98/02 versions. My favorite standing poke was mainly his s.A in those games. It had a decent speed, range, and it was pointed directly at the opponent's mid-section while his jab in this game doesn't have that same angle and it isn't as long. His s.B is okay for stopping hops, and his s.C I haven't really build much trust using it.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Sharnt on January 04, 2012, 08:37:49 PM
Abuse of far D if your opponent hop it do close D which starts very fast and is a kind of wall against hops.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: desmond_kof on January 04, 2012, 09:05:05 PM
Abuse of far D if your opponent hop it do close D which starts very fast and is a kind of wall against hops.

Far D is really slow, both start up and recovery wise so, I'd rather use s.B for that.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Diavle on January 04, 2012, 09:08:03 PM
s.B is fantastic, and its cancellable, unlike his far sA of old. Can't see how you can be happy with one but not the other. sB into ff+A into win.

I use all of his pokes, don't find any of them useless. His poking game is actually a big part of my gameplan with him.

And far D is really good, can go over lows as well (I went over Kyo's fireball once lol). Like Sharnt said, it creates a wall of sorts that can hit upward and forwards and can be linked after for combos. If they get too close then they get hit with the fast and upwards angled close D.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Buriki One on January 12, 2012, 03:33:41 AM

Is ff+A on block punishable? Also, after ff+A on block what is his safest option?
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Diavle on January 12, 2012, 03:43:48 AM
On block  Kim rebounds off of the opponent, you can enter an attack at any time all the way till he lands (so you can delay inputting an attack). During the rebound Kim has a few options:

- qcb+D for an overhead (B version is less safe and isn't an overhead)
- qcf+D, D (The move will be blocked but Kim will Kick off of them and do a J.D as he's jumping back)
- qcf+B, Kim will do the dive kick straight down and land quickly, not hitting the opponent
- Do nothing

You can also super but that's unsafe, EX versions of above moves make things safer in the situations.

Variation in attacks and times of entering said attacks should help keep you safe.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Sharnt on January 12, 2012, 12:35:02 PM
qcb.D is 0 or +1 if done at the lowest.
qcb.BD is invincible (and it seems there are a lot of invincible frames, i succeed at beating Ex dp with it) and quite safe at the lowest (you can't be punish easily by normals).
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Sharnt on March 20, 2012, 01:08:33 PM
Pro :
- Deals more than the average (More than Kyo, less than Iori/Hwa Jai)




That's how i see him for now.

After more plays :
- Might be able to deals more than the average if only nearly 99% of the opening weren't from d.B (or if I didn't use a d.B after a jumping attack  :>) So Kim's output damage is in the average.
- Safe jumps everywhere
- Good frame traps
- Good air control
- Good zoning tools (far.C, far.D especially)
- Crazy pressure game, once you get on your opponent you can stick him until his death

Cons :
- Poor mixups (Except the High/Low after a knockdown)
=> 50/50 mixups crossup after some combos midscreen, in corner it's a traditionnal throw/ frame trap mixup but you are greatly advantaged.
- Can't deal that much without meter and have a hard time to build any, because he is laking of a practicable safe spacial move
=> Irrelevant since after landing one combo you start your pressure game which will open on more combos. At least one Ex bar is great.
- Higher requirement in terms of execution to do the optimized combo than the majority of the cast (A step aside Ash though)
=> Most of whose combos are useless except [far.D,d.B,s.B, ... ] which is difficult to confirm and to do but very powerful. In a corner opening d.B,d.B,s.B/s.C,ff.A,qcf.BD,s.D,qcb.B,d~u.D~d.D is worthing it too.
But you don't need to learn whose it's just a (great) plus.
- Kyo/Hwa Jai are better than him in roughly every situation
=> I think it's still true. But Kim's pressure is better than their.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: desmond_kof on March 20, 2012, 08:54:05 PM
After playing with him a lot myself, I still feel he has trouble against zoners and must use meter to evade their fireballs with his air EX qcb K. Because of that, I usually place Kim in the middle of my team or as an anchor.

I do think another weakness he has is most of his special moves (without meter) are unsafe and have bad recovery. A TKed qcb+D and a far placed qcb+B can be pretty safe which can give him some good frame traps, but I feel like some of his normals can be used to make opponents press buttons on block like his st. C, and his far and standing D.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Diavle on March 21, 2012, 01:59:24 PM
He has been one of my mains since day one and I am fairly certain that Kim will end up being considered A tier or above.

Between playing online and watching tournaments there is still a lot of stuff I see ppl not use properly, to full effect or at all.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Sharnt on March 21, 2012, 06:26:10 PM
He has been one of my mains since day one and I am fairly certain that Kim will end up being considered A tier or above.

Between playing online and watching tournaments there is still a lot of stuff I see ppl not use properly, to full effect or at all.
Sure. But the character is quite deep, so only ppl who will stay on him a long time will make use of those tools.

After playing with him a lot myself, I still feel he has trouble against zoners and must use meter to evade their fireballs with his air EX qcb K. Because of that, I usually place Kim in the middle of my team or as an anchor.
That's why I have been training a Kula for some days. To put her against hadotrap characters.
Nevertheless if you are patient enough your opponent ends in the corner without any safe option to pass through you. You might lose 200-300 hp thought but you have an option to win those matchs.
And i'm using air qcb.BD to bait dp moves. For me this move is horrible for passing trough fireballs.

I do think another weakness he has is most of his special moves (without meter) are unsafe and have bad recovery. A TKed qcb+D and a far placed qcb+B can be pretty safe which can give him some good frame traps, but I feel like some of his normals can be used to make opponents press buttons on block like his st. C, and his far and standing D.

You don't really need safe specials since Kim's normals are really, really great
Just avoid to end it with s.B which puts you quite far (or do it only if you want to do a ff.A follow up to try to screw your opponent) and let you at -1 at best (?) (Edit : -6 according to frame data)
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: desmond_kof on March 23, 2012, 07:14:50 PM
Pro :
- Deals more than the average (More than Kyo, less than Iori/Hwa Jai)




That's how i see him for now.

After more plays :
- Might be able to deals more than the average if only nearly 99% of the opening weren't from d.B (or if I didn't use a d.B after a jumping attack  :>) So Kim's output damage is in the average.
- Safe jumps everywhere
- Good frame traps
- Good air control
- Good zoning tools (far.C, far.D especially)
- Crazy pressure game, once you get on your opponent you can stick him until his death

Cons :
- Poor mixups (Except the High/Low after a knockdown)
=> 50/50 mixups crossup after some combos midscreen, in corner it's a traditionnal throw/ frame trap mixup but you are greatly advantaged.
- Can't deal that much without meter and have a hard time to build any, because he is laking of a practicable safe spacial move
=> Irrelevant since after landing one combo you start your pressure game which will open on more combos. At least one Ex bar is great.
- Higher requirement in terms of execution to do the optimized combo than the majority of the cast (A step aside Ash though)
=> Most of whose combos are useless except [far.D,d.B,s.B, ... ] which is difficult to confirm and to do but very powerful. In a corner opening d.B,d.B,s.B/s.C,ff.A,qcf.BD,s.D,qcb.B,d~u.D~d.D is worthing it too.
But you don't need to learn whose it's just a (great) plus.
- Kyo/Hwa Jai are better than him in roughly every situation
=> I think it's still true. But Kim's pressure is better than their.


So keep his pros, but his cons are:

- Can be easily zoned by fireball characters

- Lack of long range options, only strong mid and close range

- Some unsafe special moves

- Works best with a good amount of meter

Anyone agree or disagree? Anything else to add? Let me know because I would like to add this to the wiki soon.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Sharnt on March 23, 2012, 07:51:58 PM
I forgot to add those weaknesses. But you don't especially need meter except for escape an harsh pressure or pass through an hadotrap.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Sharnt on April 18, 2012, 09:34:14 PM
My gamestyle has quite evolved the last week end, a lot more sweeps, more patience.

And fireballs are not really a problem, you just have to guard them, and slowly walk between each projectile. Once you have one ex you can jump freely on your opponent and start applying your pressure.

Same thing, you don't really need meter, it's charging naturally while guarding or guard pressings, I was using it only for Ex hienzan, qcfqcf.B reversals, air qcb.BD and some killing combo.
It's still not in my game but I MUST spend more in break rolls to punish things or reverse a corner pressure at my advantage.

Have unsafe special moves isn't relevant since you don't let your opponent guard them.

Today I don't see the cons of playing Kim (except the fact some char are overall a bit better), the char is really strong and quite unique in his style. He just doesn't have some tools such has command throw and long range invincible move, but he doesn't need them.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: solidshark on April 23, 2012, 03:53:40 AM
Today I don't see the cons of playing Kim (except the fact some char are overall a bit better), the char is really strong and quite unique in his style. He just doesn't have some tools such has command throw and long range invincible move, but he doesn't need them.

I'm more in this boat as of now. Any cons I have with Kim are pretty much my own problems as of now. His pressure game is among my favorite of the whole cast. Even with the higher-level players, they forget about a lot of his frame traps and advantages when they try to rush him down like every other character. I think of all the characters lacking projectiles, Kim's got the best rushdown, partly because more launch him forward so quickly and often.

Still having problems with Saiki, but I just have to use his tools better.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: Nagato1992 on August 03, 2012, 11:00:42 PM
Today I don't see the cons of playing Kim (except the fact some char are overall a bit better), the char is really strong and quite unique in his style. He just doesn't have some tools such has command throw and long range invincible move, but he doesn't need them.

I'm more in this boat as of now. Any cons I have with Kim are pretty much my own problems as of now. His pressure game is among my favorite of the whole cast. Even with the higher-level players, they forget about a lot of his frame traps and advantages when they try to rush him down like every other character. I think of all the characters lacking projectiles, Kim's got the best rushdown, partly because more launch him forward so quickly and often.

Still having problems with Saiki, but I just have to use his tools better.

Saiki matchup is so bad for me too.  Up close it's not too bad, but long range can be a hassle.  Eventually, doing 236+ ;a in the air to get as close to the fireball without hitting it and staying outside of dp/super plays out and is pretty tough.
Title: Re: The Pros and Cons of Kim: Strategy & Matchup Thread
Post by: choysauce on August 04, 2012, 02:23:55 AM
i feel like against good zoners, you need to make them respect the EX air hangetsuzan.

Against someone you know who is good at anti airing, you need to just DO it, so you can show that you're not afraid to do it as a read.

then you can jump more freely against them (with meter of course).

but man i think Ash is even worse of a matchup, since you might be able to EX ground hangetsuzan against saiki's fireball startup (the fb startup is ASS slow).

but if you have meter you can do his flying super against it if you space it correctly.