Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => Character Discussion => Elisabeth Branctorche => Topic started by: nilcam on December 14, 2011, 12:34:57 AM
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http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Elisabeth_Branctorche_(XIII) (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Elisabeth_Branctorche_(XIII))
Submissions, questions, comments and feedback should be posted here.
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Trying to make sense of this combo on the Wiki:
cr.B×2/st.C~f+B, [HD] st.C, f+B, dp+C, [dp+A, (HDC) qcf+K/qcf+AC, qcf+C×1~2]×3~4, dp+A×2, j.C, qcf hcb+P
Not sure what "qcf+K/qcf+AC" means, and would prefer to know exactly whether it's 1 or 2, 3 or 4. Knowing how many meters this combo requires is pretty important.
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It looks like the same combo from trial 9.
qcf+K / qcf+AC means you can do
- [dp+A HDC qcf+B/D, qcf+C, qcf+C]x3
or
- dp+A HDC qcf+AC, qcf+C, qcf+C]x3
It just saying you can use either setup. It also doesn't have a fixed amount because 1 use EX which uses meter and one doesn't. If its in the wiki best to separate them with their meter usage and damage.
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Wiki says that Mistral is an instant command throw, but it's not actually instant. It might be slower than a normal throw.
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-Should update the 4 stock combos as 3 stock combos because of the console changes making Neomax cancels costs 2 bars instead of 3.
-Might help newer people if you have a brief note indicating that any of the combos involving double A DP's need to be done at the lowest juggle height possible.
-I would like to add that Elisabeth can combo into her s.C off of a meaty c.B. Particular useful setups are after an air reset from her typical air juggles, which adds to her mix up game in the corner.
-Also, might be useful to add match up specific information if anyone has anything to contribute. Something like listing the optimal punishes on common scenario's against certain characters. For example, if you block Duo Lon's Rekka x 3 and the player does QCF+K after the third Rekka, which they will most definitely do to stay as safe as possible, Elisabeth can punish with either QCF, HCB+P or C DP into a full combo. Miscellaneous information like that can help.
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I've been given admin rights to the wiki so I'm trying to update the Elisabeth section as much as possible.
-Added damage and stun values for some of the combos (will do it for all combos in the future).
-Added notes to describe some tips for the combo timing.
-Added stun and counter hit damage values to Etincelle (will do this for her normals, specials, and supers as well_
I'll be adding a section for her mix-ups in the future as well.
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-Added a mix ups section
-Added counter hit and stun values to her standing normals
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-Added a lot of information on her standing normals
-Added a lot of information on Etincelle
-Added a few more mix ups to the mix up section
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-Editing the formatting of her other normals, will fill in the rest of the information later on.
-Added a few more mix up options.
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The Elisabeth page is looking great, good stuff Killey. Some damage stuff I saw:
- f+B: Does 40 damage, 50 on CH. 6 stun, 8% Guard Damage.
- Both regular DPs are listed as 60 damage: A does 50, C does 60.
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I haven't updated a lot of her normals information yet and are just using the existing information as place holders. I've corrected the f+B data but left the DP's as is since it was in reference to the EX Version. I'll try to finish off her normal information today.
-Fixed f+B information
-Added more information to Etincelle usage
-Added quick combo reference
-Added complete list of useful combos
-Added list of HD combos
-Added information on team positioning
I haven't completed the damage values of the combos. That will take me a while since I've included every permutation of the base combos that I can think of. I just wanted some things in place first.
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Added damage and stun values for all combos except for HD combos as I will do that later.
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Great job man!
I noticed her combos in the Quick Combos section are really long. Is it possible to share more shorter and easier combos? Even if they are a little less damaging?
Honestly, I don't play with Elisabeth at all, but coming from someone that doesnt, that would like to know some easy bnbs to set up for much longer ones...the current ones look kinda intense. :p
Let me know how you feel about that.
Again, great job dude, and thank you!
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Great job man!
I noticed her combos in the Quick Combos section are really long. Is it possible to share more shorter and easier combos? Even if they are a little less damaging?
Honestly, I don't play with Elisabeth at all, but coming from someone that doesnt, that would like to know some easy bnbs to set up for much longer ones...the current ones look kinda intense. :p
Let me know how you feel about that.
Again, great job dude, and thank you!
Yeah, I can shorten them up.
EDIT:
-Shortened her quick combo section.
-Removed some redundant combos and added additional notes to the combo section for execution tips and info
-Added a few more combos, will do damage and stun values when I get home tonight.
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-Did some updates on the combo's and mix-ups.
-I won't have time to post damage and stun values for the new combos or HD combos anytime soon. :(
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Kyo Kusanagi (XIII) (mirror match)
fix it in matchups :\
also where mr.karate(in his article on wiki lost section with qcf+p) etc. forums?
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Kyo Kusanagi (XIII) (mirror match)
fix it in matchups :\
also where mr.karate(in his article on wiki lost section with qcf+p) etc. forums?
-Fixed the match-up sections to remove mirror match under Kyo
-Moved Mr.Karate match-up so that he's listed in alphabetical order like the rest
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-Updated information to her normals.
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Took a hiatus from KoFXIII after Evo. I just want to finish up the wiki on Elisabeth but it's going to take a while.
-Reorganized the combos to classify mid-screen, corner, and counter hit combos
-Added corner counter hit combos
-Updated some misc. information here and there
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-Damage, Stun, Guard Damage, Special Properties information for jumping normals, s.CD, j.CD, GCCD, and throw have been added
- Damage, Stun, Guard Damage, Special properties information for all versions of Coup de Veine added. Additional information on Coup de Veine to be added later.
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Good job man. One very small thing I wanted to point out in this section:
http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Elisabeth_Branctorche_%28XIII%29#Coup_De_Veine_-_DP.2BP (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Elisabeth_Branctorche_%28XIII%29#Coup_De_Veine_-_DP.2BP)
"Each strength of Coupe De Veine has a specific situation and use that you need to familiarize yourself with - I'll be discussing the use of each version in more detail after this."
Please refrain from using first person perspectives in the analysis' and descriptions. You can insert an editors note for that if need to be.
Thanks again, man.
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Fixed.
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-Did some reformatting of information
-Added additional information to her command dashes.
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-Did some reformatting for better presentation
-Added hit detection properties to all normals and specials
-Added additional information to her standing normals, EX Etincelle, EX Reverie-Souhaiter
-Filled out the information for Reverie-Prier
-Filled out some information for Mistral. Damage and Stun values still need to be filled out.
-Added some brief match up information against Kim, King, Andy, Elisabeth, and Duo Lon.
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-Added more mix ups
-Added cross up section
-Added additional misc. information
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-Guard Damage aka chip damage added for all attacks
-Corrected the names/spelling for Coup De Vent, Etincelles, Reverie-Geler, and Un Coup De Pied
-The old Guard Damage has been renamed to Guard Gauge Damage
-Damage and Stun Calculations added to Mistral, DM's, and Neo Max
-Reformatted Match Ups section for better presentation and organization
-Additional information added to the Kim and Kyo (XIII) match ups
With the damage and stun calculations added to those mentioned moves all of the raw number values for every attack has been logged now. :)
The special move name corrections won't reflect in the quick move list since it's an image and I have no control over that. I still have to fix up Etincelles in the rest of the document.
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-Reformatted Match Ups section for better presentation and organization
-Additional information added to the Kim and Kyo (XIII) match ups
Thanks for sharing the information!
But can you change it back the way it was? It makes the table of contents wayyy too long. Can you do that for all the sections, please?
The special move name corrections won't reflect in the quick move list since it's an image and I have no control over that. I still have to fix up Etincelles in the rest of the document.
You can fix it by adding the move motions from here: http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg59878#msg59878 (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=2156.msg59878#msg59878)
I changed Yuri's, you can use her's as an example: http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Yuri_Sakazaki_%28XIII%29 (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Yuri_Sakazaki_%28XIII%29)
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Fixed.
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Thanks man. I put the quick combo list under the move list for it wont look cramped and I also made some of her vids as links instead of embeds to lower the size of the page (which they say is 84kbs or something). Keep up the good work!
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-Additional combos added (found some new damaging ones)
-Damage and Stun values added for all combos except 1 bar HD combos
-Added safe jump setups section
-Added videos for practical combos and mistral safe jump setup
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-Additional combos added
-Removed less optimized combos
-Updated damage calculations for some combos
-Added match up notes for vs Ryo
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[DC Wiki Quote Start]
Mistral or EX Mistral if the opponent does a tech roll they will get grabbed.
The above mix up will only work if your opponent does a tech roll after the first dp+A. Normally, recovering from a knockdown gives you a few frames of throw invulnerability; however, there are no throw invulnerability frames after a tech roll. This set up utilizes this information for an instant grab.
[DC Wiki Quote End]
I'm presuming this is against a cornered opponent.
Although the above setup is likely to score Elisabeth a Mistral or EX Mistral, there are some ways out. The main reason for this that characters still have 1 frame of throw invincibility on wakeup after tech rolling. Although it's obviously dangerous for the tech rolling player, the 1 frame gives the player enough time to wake up with a reversal that is throw-invincible or airborne upon activation. They can also hold up on wakeup to be airborne immediately and punish the whiffed command grab on the way down with a full combo.
After Elisabeth's opponent tech rolls, the Elisabeth player actually has to consider several scenarios that beat her Mistral and EX Mistral:
1.If you expect your opponent to use an unsafe physical wakeup, block to bait it(you could also backdash to make it an option select that beats wakeup throw too)
2.If you expect your opponent to use a wakeup invincible command grab, walk backwards out of range, backdash, or hop.
3.If you expect your opponent to jump on wakeup, you can (step back a bit if you want and) use Etincelle (any version) to start an anti-jump-escape combo;
a) Etincelle(EX), Etincelle(C), Etincelle(C), [dpA, dpA jC] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]
b) Etincelle(C), Etincelle(C), [dpA dpA jC] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]
c) Etincelle(A), [dpA, dpA, j.C] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]
Notes:
If hit at the wrong height, Etincelle(EX) allows only one Etincelle(C) followup.
If hit at the wrong height, Etincelle(C) allows no additional Etincelle(C) followup.
To keep things simple, you can leave out one of the followup Etincelle(C)'s for combos a) and b) based on reacting to how your first Etincelle connects.
To recap, although an opponent tech rolling makes them more vulnerable to throws, the throw isn't guaranteed, so doing a raw command grab is still generally risky.
The anti-tech roll setup is only better because they have less time to react to the throw and that they can't mash cr.B or cl.C on wakeup since they don't get up with throw invincibility.
Your opponent's options *are* more limited after tech rolling though so you can enjoy increased pressure for a few moments.
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The Liz wiki is way more detailed than the other ones I've read so far so great job!
Submitting a Liz combo:
[4 Stock HD 50% screen] (opponent dead center or anywhere closer to the wall behind them)
hop C, cl.C [HD] cl.C-dp.C [HDC] qcf.A, dp.A [HDC] qcf.C, qcf.C, dp.A [HDC] qcf.C, qcf.C, dp.A [HDC] qcf.C, qcf.C, qcfx2.AC [MC] qcbqcf.BD
(1000 damage)
Notes:
1) I wasn't able to get far C to come out instead of close C after HD activation but it doesn't matter since it does 1000 damage.
2) To get the full 50% screen carry, make use of the HD Activation slide (don't hit C too early right after HD Activation), otherwise it's more like 40-45% screen carry.
3) You don't need to do any late HD Cancels from dp.A to get 2-hit qcf.C; it's actually better if you don't because more than one late HDC to get the 2-hit qcf.C will delay the combo enough to make you run out of meter by the time you get to the Max Cancel.
4) It took a while for me to get comfortable with confirming to HD without using Elisabeth's forward+B, but hop C, C is perfectly fine as a two-hit confirm.
5) Using forward+B before HD Activation adds a bit of scaling but odds are you won't be hitting your opponent from perfectly full life anyway and the confirm becomes way easier (the combo does 998 damage instead)
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[DC Wiki Quote Start]
Mistral or EX Mistral if the opponent does a tech roll they will get grabbed.
The above mix up will only work if your opponent does a tech roll after the first dp+A. Normally, recovering from a knockdown gives you a few frames of throw invulnerability; however, there are no throw invulnerability frames after a tech roll. This set up utilizes this information for an instant grab.
[DC Wiki Quote End]
I'm presuming this is against a cornered opponent.
Although the above setup is likely to score Elisabeth a Mistral or EX Mistral, there are some ways out. The main reason for this that characters still have 1 frame of throw invincibility on wakeup after tech rolling. Although it's obviously dangerous for the tech rolling player, the 1 frame gives the player enough time to wake up with a reversal that is throw-invincible or airborne upon activation. They can also hold up on wakeup to be airborne immediately and punish the whiffed command grab on the way down with a full combo.
After Elisabeth's opponent tech rolls, the Elisabeth player actually has to consider several scenarios that beat her Mistral and EX Mistral:
1.If you expect your opponent to use an unsafe physical wakeup, block to bait it(you could also backdash to make it an option select that beats wakeup throw too)
2.If you expect your opponent to use a wakeup invincible command grab, walk backwards out of range, backdash, or hop.
3.If you expect your opponent to jump on wakeup, you can (step back a bit if you want and) use Etincelle (any version) to start an anti-jump-escape combo;
a) Etincelle(EX), Etincelle(C), Etincelle(C), [dpA, dpA jC] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]
b) Etincelle(C), Etincelle(C), [dpA dpA jC] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]
c) Etincelle(A), [dpA, dpA, j.C] or [dpA[DC]Etincelle(C or EX), etc.]
Notes:
If hit at the wrong height, Etincelle(EX) allows only one Etincelle(C) followup.
If hit at the wrong height, Etincelle(C) allows no additional Etincelle(C) followup.
To keep things simple, you can leave out one of the followup Etincelle(C)'s for combos a) and b) based on reacting to how your first Etincelle connects.
To recap, although an opponent tech rolling makes them more vulnerable to throws, the throw isn't guaranteed, so doing a raw command grab is still generally risky.
The anti-tech roll setup is only better because they have less time to react to the throw and that they can't mash cr.B or cl.C on wakeup since they don't get up with throw invincibility.
Your opponent's options *are* more limited after tech rolling though so you can enjoy increased pressure for a few moments.
Thanks for the information. I've update the wiki with some of the information you provided but omitted the Etincelle combos as I don't want to clutter the mix up sections with combos. I'll have to do some experimentation with the tech roll throw invulnerability and compare them with other command grab based characters. There's probably an option select in this setup somewhere.
I've added your HD combo to the wiki as well.
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* Added a bunch of match up information on Duo Lon and Billy Kane.
* Added information on Noble Blanche and Grand Rafale DM's.
* Added counter hit information to A Etincelle and A Coup De Vent
* Added additional safe jump setups and linked to the video
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* Added additional information to jump C, crouch B, and far stand D
* Added match up information vs Benimaru and Kensou
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Added the following to the Tips Section:
"Frame Traps
1. st. A, cl. C
2. cr. A, cl. C
3. st. B, st. A
4. st. B, cr. A
5. st. B, cl. C
6. st. B, cr. B
7. cr. B, cl. C"
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-Reorganized combo listings based on midscreen, corner, and counter hit rather than no drive and drive cancel.
-Reorganized cross ups, safe jumps, and command grab mind games under tips rather than their own section.
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Good job. I caught something that needs to be changed:
"I stress the importance of not being afraid to spend meter with Elisabeth because it takes one combo and one mix up for her to kill a character so she's fully capable at making those clutch comebacks."
No first-person references without a editors note.
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- Revised some of the information.
- Changed some of the combo notation so it's along the lines with the other character wikis.
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-Revised combo notation
-Added some combos
-Added info on the Clark match up
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-Added new safe jump and cross up setups based on this video KOF XIII // Elisabeth Safe Jumps, Set Up and HD Combo Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75YuPSrIrUw#)
-Revised some match up information on King and Kim
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Brief update on Elisabeth's HD combo section.
Added a two bar HD combo.