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King of Fighters XIII => Character Discussion => Sie Kensou => Topic started by: SwitchPlaya on January 02, 2012, 04:18:16 AM

Title: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: SwitchPlaya on January 02, 2012, 04:18:16 AM
This thread will be dedicated to how to deal with characters with Kensou. In order to make it easier explained what character you are having trouble with before writing down your issues and solutions you should title what the match up is. you don't have to do this if you don't want to it will just make it easier to look out for specific characters.

eg.

(Kensou vs ???)
[text Here]
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: milesw on January 03, 2012, 02:00:45 PM
All I know is Kensou has to be free vs CHIN when knocked down

-Bait his rolling back fist if he tries to get past your fireballs since this is his only option vs zoners
A blocked backfist is a free neomax(depending on a/c version I believe)

-do not try jumping attacks on his wake-up since he can wake up counter on reaction

-cr.b/st.b is a oki tool against chin once knocked down. Since he cannot counter lows.

his only wake up options would be block, reversal(requires meter to do so), counter

on his wake up mix up between lows, throw/command throw super.

Something along the lines of...

Knockdown>
whiff a jumping attack>cr.b>etc

whiff a jumping attack>throw/C.T.

Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: dmick1981 on January 12, 2012, 05:36:14 PM
Right now im having trouble fighting kyo, takuma and shen. Dose anybody have any suggestions
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: SwitchPlaya on January 13, 2012, 02:56:03 AM
what the trouble with the most with each character?
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: dmick1981 on January 14, 2012, 05:08:00 AM
Well as far as kyo goes im having a hard time punishing his  qcf + lk. What punishes that because kyo just spams those all day when it dosent look safe on block.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: Diavle on January 14, 2012, 06:58:17 PM
Well as far as kyo goes im having a hard time punishing his  qcf + lk. What punishes that because kyo just spams those all day when it dosent look safe on block.

Kyo's qcf+K is generally pretty safe on block but:

-You can rdp+K him in between the first and second kicks
- You can roll in between his first and  second kicks
- You can normal throw him after the second kick (he can break the throw but will still get pushed back)
- And if you have meter then just do the qcf hcb+P super after the second kick. Its a 1 frame grab.
- You can also guard cancel roll and punish

Go to practice and record the Kyo dummy into doing the move over and over, then go nuts experimenting on punishes.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: dmick1981 on January 24, 2012, 06:57:32 PM
Thanks man. Dose anyone have any idea how to fight clark
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: Franchyze22 on February 01, 2012, 09:45:51 AM
Anyone got some tips on fighting Kim, maybe some punishes or something, he just seems to be mr. safe to me.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: Sharnt on February 01, 2012, 01:59:36 PM
There is only one safe special move with Kim, air qcb.D at the lowest heigh possible which lets him at +1

Just put a Kim bot and try to punish with rdp.B/rdp.BD/qcf.P his moves.

Some moves can be hard to punish at certain ranges, but they never are safe.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: jinxhand on February 02, 2012, 07:06:27 AM
Against Clark, make sure you actually hit qcf+B/D, 'cause if not, then he can just do his b,f+P and combo accordingly... You're gonna have to constantly maintain space, like sweeping distance and more, especially with s.D, c.D, and those fireballs... Just don't get too "Predictabo" because one roll past his fireball, and you're gonna get thrown, or eat a combo (hopefully Clark doesn't have enough to cancel into his EX super)... Don't attempt to beat out his grab with a super either, it's pointless... If you can anticipate it, jump to qcb+A/C, or pray you recover quick enough for a backflip to cancel that into something else...
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: dmick1981 on February 11, 2012, 03:24:23 AM
Thanks bro yeah clark is a pain in the ass to fight against. Any advice for the matchups against Takuma and Shen
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on February 11, 2012, 03:45:07 AM
When Shen has no meter, get in on him and pressure him to death especially using Chokyuudan pressure.  Use your low pokes to deal with possible far C annoyances but don't get overly predictable unless you want him to get a free hop in.  When he DOES get Drive or Meter, be very wary about your FB pressure.  One wrong move and he will drill you with heavy damage. 

You could also just sit back a bit and let Shen make the mistakes.  He's not terribly safe on most of his strings.  Free punishes are always good and without full HD meter, you'll almost never have to block low since he can't do jack shit with his lows without HD Mode.

The main deal is this.  On a Point vs. Point match (where Kensou should be more often than not), Kensou will beat Shen.  Once Shen gets meter it becomes problematic, so preferably you don't have Kensou in a slot where it would put you at a disadvantage.  If you're Point vs. SG/Anchor Shen, then at the least, your Kensou did the job of getting the early lead and you can go a bit harder to maintain it if not win the match.    If Kensou's lower on the list though, the matchup becomes harder to the point where it's Anchor vs. Anchor, you might be in a slight bit of trouble.  If you don't normally put Kensou at point, make a habit of doing it if Shen's on the other team.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: choysauce on February 21, 2012, 07:16:00 PM
The Ralf matchup seems pretty tough with kensou

the major problem i'm seeming to have is that ralf's normals are super beefy and active so my pokes run into them or i just get beat usually. and its super hard to react to his sh.D, it's like a near instant overhead.

i always have to wait and punish ralf for bad rush punches, but how often will a competent ralf do those for me to block?

would his qcf+B/D punish ralf's divepunch?
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: jinxhand on February 23, 2012, 07:44:12 AM
Ralf's not too bad, if you can consistently change the pace and the space of your projectiles...

EX fireball goes through Ralf's qcb+P, except the EX one I believe... If you do your EX fireball before he gets his EX qcb+P out, it will hit-- just know his EX qcb+P has a delay to it...

You can't do too much rushing without following behind a fireball, so just make sure that you have one out, and try to inch in as best as you can.

j.B cross up helps, too...

Try not to do anything that gives him a free b~f+P, because that can lead to some DC combos...

his only real long range pokes are s.D, c.D, c.C, and s.C... Ralf can't rely on c.C too much, except for close punishes... I believe he can go into HD mode from that, so be careful with the rushdown...

For those that are gutsy enough to do backdash into air qcf+P, you can trade or possibly beat with rdp+K...

You can run up behind fireball, use c.D and cancel into backflip, and immediately cancel to fast fireball if they don't jump... Ralf is gonna want to control the ground and make you jump. But just like Chess, you have to make the opponent play your game-- in this case, make Ralf jump...

Situations like the one mentioned above can train him to think he has an opportunity to capitalize on a whiff... If the fireball is fast, it will hit if he tries to be slick and jump... If you've already trained him to roll, you should use the A projectile... If he somehow manages to telegraph and qcb+A, then you can continue to rush, or if you're gutsy, qcf+B/D; but there's a risk if Ralf recovered from his move already... The trick with that is to go into qcf+B/D immediately after the fireball, but that's if you know he's gonna go qcb+P...

Ultimately, it's not too hard to face Ralf. You just have to read him a little more, and then train him to do what you want for the right setup...

Oh yeah, qcf+B/D should punish the dive punch, depending on how high he did the move, which affects where he lands in the end... If it was close enough, just dash in and combo instead...

Lastly, if you've got your opponent to roll past your fireball setups, try something like either s.D or c.D into backflip and cancel backflip into dp+P... This can be risky, but again you have to ready your opponent to determine whether or not this is an option... At the very least, option select so you can break throws...
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: dmick1981 on March 17, 2012, 09:36:19 AM
Man i dont seem to have an answer for takuma. Hes got that stupid awesome ambiguous crossup D. He beats me in the fireball game. I cant seem to punish b-f b/d. Whats the deal with beatin this chump lol
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: jinxhand on March 17, 2012, 06:36:17 PM
Kensou's fireballs should be able to keep up with Takuma's with the exception of Tak's EX fireball, which can trump any fireball war you have with him... Plus his fireballs come out a bit faster than Kensou's, so I wouldn't necessarily start a fireball war per sÚ...

Keep in mind he can't really AA you if you're up close... He can waste meter to do it (GCCD, Ranbu), but other than that, it's not really worth it... Most Takuma players want to zone just enough to push you in the corner to apply pressure by rushing down shortly after... You are going to want to keep him from building any gap or momentum...

In some cases, backflip can help out by giving him a sense of "false hope", and it might make the Takuma player try to do something assuming he has enough space to either zone or rush... Don't rely too much on the fireball pressure, because again he can snuff it with EX fireball, or either fireball super... It won't hurt if you stayed behind that fireball, just make sure that you don't get a qcf+K blocked, because that means you'll be punished with a db~f+K combo of some sort...

Cross up j.D can trade with rdp+K at the very least... If you're quick enough, you can qcf+K to get out of trouble, assuming Takuma didn't attempt to do a deep j.D, which if that is the case, then rdp+B...

Steer clear of his command grab... That pretty much means he's gonna do a combo that eats up your life-- alot!!!
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: dmick1981 on March 20, 2012, 07:51:19 AM
Thanks jinx. Ran into another wall last night against my buddys saiki. Whats the deal with saiki? I lose the fb war and i get locked down in the corner when he throws out fireball super. Cant roll through it or i get dp'd/thrown/comboed. Also kensou vs mai seeing as she has the best damn normals in the game. She just plain out normals me on the ground and in air as she has air throw and what the heck ever that floaty move she has that always crosses me up
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: jinxhand on March 20, 2012, 05:52:15 PM
I don't fight many Saikis out here and when I do it's online, so I can't exactly get good punishes or what not... Yeah you're gonna have to get in inch by inch, and poke to bait something with him I will say that... You'll lose in the air with him, and his fireball game will only be beaten by an EX fireball, which you'd rather keep the meter for GCCD, and to use in combos, because you wanna kill him quick imo...

Mai--- well she's another one I don't know too much of aside from what she's been normally good for in most KOFs: air control... You'll lose to her on that... As for anti-airs that might work against her, you've got rdp+K, cr.C, and sometimes s.D and CD. j.B works as an air to air but some characters out prioritize that altogether... You'll wanna try those out and see which ones work based one where she's at in the air, and what she's doing... If you land a ground move, try to cancel it into a fireball for added pressure... I remember fighting one or two way back in December, and I would try to attack from multiple angles... Bait out those air moves and punish also (I forget which ones specifically-- oh there's her falling moves I think that's air d+B/D [┐?])...

Hope that helps a bit...
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on March 20, 2012, 06:04:51 PM
With Saiki, there's no reason you should be losing the Fireball war.  As long as you have meter, you have him beat.  There's no reason to save up for GCCD's against him because his rushdown is not that big of a pain in the ass, and any strings he throws almost always are unsafe in some way.  Play patient, make Saiki come to you.  Getting you frustrated is Saiki's gameplan, letting you make the mistakes and falling further into his trap until he can wreck you.  If you play patient, he will come to you and you can thrash him.

Mai is a bit tougher, but manageable.  She doesn't do a ton of damage without burning resources, so you can take a few more risks against her, which you will need since she owns Kensou in footsies and poking.  She's one you'll want to save your meter for GCR's in order to get around Mais that like to poke into specials a lot.  When you get in, make it count, don't get pushed back out.  Also, if Mai has a Neomax loaded up, take into account health values.  If you're at full health, just bait it out or hell, or just force her to do it.  Worst case scenario, you lose 50%, but now she's burned out and has absolutely nothing but her pokes.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: jinxhand on March 20, 2012, 06:56:40 PM
For the vs Saiki thing, that's all I was saying is meter = win in the fireball game... I honestly don't like to waste meter on that too much, because I prefer to use it on something like EX rekkas into qcf+K for example. I'll do maybe one EX fireball to show Saiki fb game is not gonna work, but not too much...

It's a force of habit, but I personally like to save at least 1 meter for the occassional GCCD if by some reason I slip up in an opportunity to capitalize, and it costs me momentum, primarily because I fight more people that rush than zone...

What are his generally unsafe moves that Saiki players tend to use???
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on March 20, 2012, 07:04:50 PM
Pretty much all of his specials other than his fireball and his QCB+B spaced perfectly are unsafe.  His Fireball doesn't even do a proper blockstring off of anything but his heavies.  So if Saiki does a string, he'll either do nothing which leaves you back at a close neutral, which is your advantage as he pretty much has to take a gamble with a DP, or end up burning meter on GCCD, or he'll use a special which if it's a Fireball, you can DP or I think even roll the gap, and if it's QCB+B, you get in for free.

It's fine to save for GCCD's, but not against Saiki because there's rarely a time you'll need to do it as Saiki really has to gamble with his rushdown.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: jinxhand on April 09, 2012, 04:36:54 AM
Yeah, so Athena's j.CD owns like crazy against a bunch of Kensou's moves... Are there points in Athena's normal block strings where I can at least throw a rdp+K in there or possibly a qcf,hcb+A/C??? I like using backflip to rdp+K, but I'm still trying to get the timing down while blocking certain moves and anticipating the next move...

Oh yeah, who here has experience vs Robert???
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on April 09, 2012, 05:37:19 AM
Honestly, other than her unconventional ones, not really.  Best shot is against her B Phoenix Arrow as Athenas LOVE to press buttons after it.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: Jon Slayton on April 09, 2012, 08:21:44 AM
Yeah command grab is free after you block either dive kick. I think the B one is -4 and the D one is minus whatever you want lol

One thing about Athena is she usually wants to anti air with air to air. Her jump is very floaty, making it really easy to rdp+B on reaction.

I feel like most matchups where the opponent doesn't have a good tool to deal with kensou's cr.D, Kensou wins pretty easily since I think it might be the furthest reaching sweep in the game. It gets annoying when they have tools like Hwa's CD which goes over lows and has good reach though but really, it's such a good tool anyway, everyone should make it a big part of their poking game.

Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on April 09, 2012, 08:32:53 AM
I think B Phoenix Arrow is like -2, but like I said, Athena WILL push buttons after it.  It's the entire point of even using B Phoenix Arrow half the time.  And yeah, D Phoenix Arrow is minus an eternity, but no good Athena will ever throw that thing out when it has a chance of getting blocked.  Once people see that in her Phoenix Arrows, her rushdown game becomes pretty predictable, however against Kensou she doesn't really need to rush at all considering she owns Kensou in the FB game, and has better pokes, and hell I think her far D might crush lows ala Kyo/Beni which completely muffs Kensou.  Best way to win the matchup is to avoid it entirely, on the Order Select.

And yeah, cr.D is a big part of his poking game as it's really his only good ranged poke.  Cr.B is the closest thing outside of that, and it has the blockstun of a feather.  Kensou will very rarely be winning any poking wars, and the ones that he does, usually means the matchup can be a breeze.  For example, Maxima's an easy enough matchup mostly thanks to the ease of zoning him (though he can at least cr.C our FBs) and the fact that he has the shins of a P.O.W.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: jinxhand on April 09, 2012, 06:17:31 PM
Yeah avoiding that matchup altogether seemed to work, even though I try so hard to avoid having to switch my team up because in my gut, I feel like he can still beat her out. Oddly enough, I felt Mature worked better against Athena, but that's another topic altogether...

I always though that Kim's d.D was slightly longer than Kensou's d.D... It was like that in the previous KOFs if I recall...
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: milesw on April 14, 2012, 07:57:46 AM
Pretty much all of his specials other than his fireball and his QCB+B spaced perfectly are unsafe.  His Fireball doesn't even do a proper blockstring off of anything but his heavies. 
I found that very useful saitsu
So i investigated further...

I have compiled a list of fraudulent fireball blockstring characters lol
all of these moves can be rolled through and punished/rdped/ ex rdped/NMed through
kensou(sweep xx) :(
kula(st.b/st.C xx)
beni( st.C xx)
saiki(st.C xx)
joe (st.a>f.b> xx) (not from st.C)
mature( lol)
duo lon( lol)

will refine more later. afaik those are the normals they love to use to cancel into fireball and exert pressure.

As for everyone else. You have to block or guard cancel roll through em.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: jinxhand on May 03, 2012, 08:42:20 PM
Yeah command grab is free after you block either dive kick. I think the B one is -4 and the D one is minus whatever you want lol

Speaking of dive kicks, is there a chance to punish Yuri's dive kick???

Pretty much all of his specials other than his fireball and his QCB+B spaced perfectly are unsafe.  His Fireball doesn't even do a proper blockstring off of anything but his heavies. 
I found that very useful saitsu
So i investigated further...

I have compiled a list of fraudulent fireball blockstring characters lol
all of these moves can be rolled through and punished/rdped/ ex rdped/NMed through
kensou(sweep xx) :(
kula(st.b/st.C xx)
beni( st.C xx)
saiki(st.C xx)
joe (st.a>f.b> xx) (not from st.C)
mature( lol)
duo lon( lol)

will refine more later. afaik those are the normals they love to use to cancel into fireball and exert pressure.

As for everyone else. You have to block or guard cancel roll through em.

Good shit!!! Honestly, Mature shouldn't even be thinking about using fireballs up close like that unless it's an EX Ebony Tears, and if there is a chance to do some heavy mixups and cross ups while blocking... Even that in itself is a risk I wouldn't wanna take, unless the character is techrolling from a knockdown, and I'm shooting the projectile then at a safe "EX rdp+K free" range...

On Kensou vs Kensou, I see you have his cr.D xx fireball listed. How risky would cr.D xx backflip xx fireball be???
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: Sharnt on May 03, 2012, 08:57:12 PM
Speaking of dive kicks, is there a chance to punish Yuri's dive kick???
She is always + in guard (Well if she doesn't use it too high), so you can only "punish" it by a break CD in guard.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: jinxhand on May 03, 2012, 09:29:12 PM
She is always + in guard (Well if she doesn't use it too high), so you can only "punish" it by a break CD in guard.

Word... It seemed that way with her being in + on block, but for some reason I assumed that Kensou's super might work by some sort of anamoly...

Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: Saitsuofleaves on May 03, 2012, 10:20:02 PM
Well...you might have a shot if you block it at your head.  Though Yuri's like to press buttons afterwards so it's not a bad thing to throw out every so often.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: baccano1932 on January 24, 2013, 03:46:23 AM
Does anybody have any tips for dealing with some characters like Andy in regards to "hit and run" type tactics, since against this strategy I tend to struggle and never know if I should play it safe and back off and wait for an opportunity or to go after them and try to get more pressure on them.
Title: Re: Sie Kensou Match Up Thread
Post by: dmick1981 on February 08, 2013, 09:37:18 AM
YURI and HWAJAI are a fuckin pain in the ass so how dose kensou beat them. Somebody please help