Dream Cancel Forum
King of Fighters XIII => General Discussion => Topic started by: solidshark on November 11, 2013, 07:20:54 AM
-
Since XIII has been out for most players for almost two years now, I'm curious about team make ups.
What team(s) did you start with when playing?
Do you have the same main team, a new team, or both?
What teams do you want to know in the future?
To answer for myself, I started with Kim/Andy/Ryo. They're still my go-to team, but I've picked up Kensou/Hwa/Billy, Chin/Terry/Takuma, and recently Elizabeth/Mai/Leona (picked these ladies on a whim, but it feels like it's paying off so far). Eventually I want to be able to use every character in the game.
-
Started as Kim/Yuri/Takuma on arcade went to Kyo/Yuri/Kim at the beginning of the console version, still on it, learning Shen bits by bits.
I'm not the kind to use a lot of characters till i don't understand everything, and this game is too deep for me to achieve this one day.
-
i used to play joe/mai/ryo but i've switched mai for kim on my main team and have switched the order as i think ryo is especially strong early on and joe needs meter for the neutral game. so now it's ryo/joe/kim. i also play a bunch of other characters, but the only team compositions i "often" pick aside from my main one would be ryo/joe/mai or billy/goro/mai with billy and goro trading places for some matchups etc.
-
First year I tried focusing on Yuri/Kyo/Daimon, but that was back when I tried to play the game like 98/02 then got blown up hard. Daimon was good but I had trouble with his lack of reach of his normals coming from the older KOFs, and plus he can get easily overwhelmed offensively, and I had trouble with Yuri because of her stubby normals as well. XIII Kyo I liked because I liked his combo flow, mixups and hard knockdowns over EX Kyo who I actually wanted to play with when the EX characters got delay for PSN (remember?). Then I dropped Daimon for Kim, but I felt Yuri was still a weak-link for me.
Second year I dropped Daimon and Yuri in favor for King, Benimaru, EX Iori, and Shen. Now I'm usually rocking King/Kyo/Kim or Kim/Benimaru/Shen with EX Iori somewhere in the mix.
-
I started out with Clark/Kensou/Iori, which was my team from KOFXII.
I've tried out several other characters, trying to get away from them because of the flaws I saw in them. Tried picking up clearly superior characters like EX Iori, Kim, Hwa Jai, Mr. Karate, Benimaru and some others, but just couldn't stick with them. They just weren't fun to me. Tried picking up some others like Mai, Raiden, Andy, Yuri, Saiki and some others and while I still use them every now and then, I just don't use them that much.
My current team in Kula/Clark/Kensou. I feel like this is ideal for me, even with all their flaws. While I enjoyed murdering people with Iori in the back, he felt too "all or nothing", it always felt hard to get that solid hit in, and with Kensou preceding him it felt like either Kensou was going to be gimped by not using meter to save for Iori, or Iori was going to be gimped because Kensou used up all the meter. Meanwhile, I find with Kula that I can very easily get full meter and I just find that there's not much reason to use meter with her. Same with Clark, although Clark has some easy HD combos that make it worth not keeping him on point like I used to.
-
Started out with Kim/Claw/Kula, dropped Kim when I transitioned from pad to stick (couldn't get f,f+A properly) and switched him with Saiki. Nowadays I mostly play Athena/Raiden/Kula, sometimes with Mature instead of Raiden. I still really like Claw and Saiki, but I felt like I had too many bad matchups with them. I either did really well with Claw or really bad, there didn't seem to be a middle ground of consistency despite all the tricks and nastiness I learned with him. He's still capable, but he brings out that "oh god, this matchup" feeling in me that messes with my head too much. Saiki has a little bit of that for me too, but not as bad as Claw. I'm just not as confident with him as I should be considering how long I've been playing him. Sadly, I think I was better with Mature in 1 week than I was after 2 years with Claw. I don't get that "matchup anxiety" with her. It's my own failings, but whatever, broadening the horizons of who I play is a good thing.
Athena has definitely been my ace in the hole. She has so much dirtiness to her it's just amazing. I'm sure most of you saw Romance's NEC performance with her. Definitely recommend trying her out if you haven't.
-
Sense I've started XIII, the first time I ever used was Duo/Mai/Terry.
I stuck with that team right up until WGC2012. The exploration I did on the other characters was relatively limited at the time. I also treating this game as if it were 98, which works in a lot of cases, as far as fundamentals go. Shortly after then, I decided to retain Mai as top priority. Claw Iori was also a recurring character for me because I generally liked the character, along with damage output and his comeback factor. Before, joining DC in the first place, I've gotten some better knowledge of most of the characters general game plans. After joining DC and meeting the members here, I started putting a lot of emphasis on TWO bar HD combos. I figure I can spend less resources while getting more damage/utilities. I also started practicing with Leona, EX Kyo, Yuri, and Hwa around this time. Found a lot of Mai-related technology thanks to training mode and the many KOF players here, while exploring and playing with the other characters overtime. I've recently picked up Takuma, as I've played him twice at a tournament in Grafenwoehr, Germany. Almost anything he does leads into a very a decent amount of damage, even if he is meter-less. As of now my current team consists of Billy/Mai/Takuma. That is my real team as of now. I have Billy on the team for sake of space control, meter control, and relatively easy BnB's. Billy/Mai/Takuma seems to work for me as of now and I intend to retain this team for the time being.
I will migrate between Hwa, Vice, EX Kyo, EX Iori, Claw Iori, Leona, Terry, Elisabeth, King, and Yuri. Those are the other characters that can put on a team and win with for sure now.
-
I haven't been playing XIII for 2 years (more like two months lol) but I started with Clark, Terry and Kim.
However, I didn't find Kim as fun as I thought, so I switched him with Saiki but people at a local meet up told me that Clark/Terry/Saiki is weird since the characters have somewhat similar weaknesses and that they don't follow well.
So I now I run Clark/Mr.Karate/Terry. Perfect, I have the glorious damage of Mr.Karate, Terry and Clark I put on point just to generate meter and have my opponent waste characters against him.
-
Started with King / Elisabeth / XIII Kyo, based almost purely on the characters. As a beginner Elisabeth's juggles were tricky, and I liked Ash's zoning game, so I played him more as well as Leona for V-Slasher scares. I also replaced XIII Kyo with EX Kyo, because I grew up with and loved his rekka moveset. Around the start of year two, I threw Shen into the mix. So as of these days, it's usually King / EX Kyo / Shen with Ash and Leona in for good measure, and trying to slowly level up Benimaru, Duo Lon, Elisabeth, Vice, and Athena.
-
I haven't figured out a team. I haven't been playing for two years, either.
Have quickly come to a realisation that an EX character or Karate is almost compulsory for a good team. But I don't like using any of them.
-
I haven't figured out a team. I haven't been playing for two years, either.
Have quickly come to a realisation that an EX character or Karate is almost compulsory for a good team. But I don't like using any of them.
Honestly, I really wouldn't call them compulsory. Convenient probably, but just because many pick them doesn't mean you need them to win. For the last two EVO winners (MadKOF and Reynald), I believe only EX Kyo was used, and he's considered the lesser of the three usually.
Playing to your character's styles our outplaying your opponent is what gets you a win, not picking the shoto. Focus on who you do like, and learn to win with them; it's totally feasible in XIII.
-
I haven't figured out a team. I haven't been playing for two years, either.
Have quickly come to a realisation that an EX character or Karate is almost compulsory for a good team. But I don't like using any of them.
They're far from necessary. Consider what's needed for a team to be good:
1. Able to do good without a lot of meter. Good meterless damage output, strong neutral game tools are things to look for. Ability to build meter.
2. Able to utilize meter for extra tools or able to do lots of damage with small amounts of meter. Ability to build meter for the third character to use. The 2nd slot is the most freeform one, and almost any character can do well in it.
3. The key here is ability to convert all the amassed meter into tons and then tons of damage. Oppressive neutral game tools to do reverse one-character wins can be a consideration.
The important thing in building a team is that you have all the tasks covered. No one character needs to do everything, though it's useful.
The DLC trio are great and have the advantage of being at home in any slot (though EX Kyo probably isn't the best choice for anchor) because they're so good all around. They have a solid neutral game and scale well to any amount of available meter. But the DLC trio aren't the only universal top tiers. Benimaru, Kim and Hwa Jai fit the template to a T as well.
In addition to that, though, there are characters that strongly prefer certain slots due to their ability to use meter, or their need of meter to do things. Duo Lon and King, for example, completely suck as anchors due to their poor ability to convert meter into insane damage. But used as a first or second character where that ability isn't relevant or is less relevant, they're a match for any top tier. They have good meterless damage, nice buttons, good space control... anything one of those universal top tiers have. And since the meter amounts are low, their weakness doesn't really ever become an issue.
Likewise, there's characters like Claw Iori and Vice that can do ridiculous amounts of damage with meter. They also have OK neutral games, but need meter to get access to the EX moves and supers that patch some holes their meterless neutral game has. As such, they tend to need meter to be truly scary, which means putting either one on point is a bit questionable. But as an anchor, with a lot of meter available, they're only the tiniest bit behind the top tier, if they're behind at all. They also tend to do OK in the middle slot because they have some meter available.
So, you can build teams like EX Iori, EX Kyo, Karate or EX Iori, Karate, Kim. Sure. Rock solid, neither team really cares about character order so you can game matchups all you want.
But something like, say, Duo Lon, Kyo, Claw Iori is just as solid as that team. It just cares about it's order a little more. And even then, while all three prefer the slots I assigned them, Kyo is OK 1st or 3rd, and neither Duo Lon nor Iori terribly mind being 2nd, so you can still switch around a bit.
Or you could run Duo Lon, King, Vice. Again, rock solid, but a step more rigid because Vice really can't leave the third slot. You still have absolutely solid characters in every slot and can switch Duo Lon and King around.
Or see Juice's team: King, Takuma, Leona. Again, a bit order constrained to be sure, but against the field in general you can't really find fault in it. Leona's a good anchor, King is absolutely stellar on point, and Takuma can do monstrous things with only a little bit of meter.
There's a lot of really solid teams you can build if you put your mind to it.
-
Now, to be on topic, my team has fluctuated a crapton. Started KOF with the Steam Edition beta with something like K', Benimaru, Flame Iori. I tend to be a fan of toolbox types and as such end up tier whoring a lot because rock solid toolbox characters usually end up there. Tried a lot of stuff out, King, didn't fit, whole Team DLC, better, and so on. Didn't try Kim, because I typically like winning with lots of tools, not bs properties on moves.
All the while most of my practice time was sucked up grinding Iori's BnB, which I just didn't seem to get the timing down for for some reason. Not consistently, at any rate. Be able to do it in practice one day, not the next type of thing. Watching Cafeid stream, Kim's buttons looked nicer and nicer. Ah, well, I'll try this stuff out. Wait, damn, these buttons do feel nice, and that's without the bs properties accounted for. I can do the BnB. He's a space control monster...
Long story short, Iori got fired. Can't continue with a rekka-sized hole in my game. Will pick him up again later, but not for now. Now is the time to play Karate/Beni/Kim.
-
I didn't exactly jump on the game as soon as console came out myself, mostly on account of not having a venue/scene at that point. I want to say I've been playing for about a year and 3 months (give or take a couple months or so) but I can't be entirely certain. That said, I've gone through plenty of character changes in adapting my play, so here goes...
My first team was K'/Terry/King. I messed with the order, but I liked the characters too much to really experiment with anyone else. People told me King was my best character, so I settled into habitually using her on anchor for a bit. Then I found out why people play her on point, so I made the switch and instantaneously started doing a LOT better with her against my regular opponents as a result. Somewhere in the midst of this period of time I discovered that DLC characters existed, and 98/Flame/EX/Classic/etc Iori took the spot previously occupied by K'. I played this team for a good long while, then suddenly a wild Shen appeared and started doing HD combos for me before I figured out how to efficiently play him without meter. He made for a startlingly easy anchor, my whole gameplan relied on waiting for them to do something I could punish with a cl. ;c and doing more damage in one go for less meter than I'd ever relied on before. As a result of this I became obsessed with learning HD combos, and I soon perfected Shen's 2-bar variants. My Iori eventually found one too, and along the way I dabbled in EX Kyo, playing him casually just because I could hit people with his ;a rekka ;c rekka loop and laugh maniacally while setting the entire screen on fire with the Neomax. My Terry (who I still played occasionally) also leveled up to "can actually sometimes HD for 0/1 bar with" status, but my tournament team was King/Iori/Shen. Then...
Something crazy happened. I realized I was hopelessly infatuated with Mature and Vice, and remembered the vision that popped into my mind back when I saw preview images of XIII, back when I was still a casual who only played games against his equally lacking brother, a nobody with no skilled opponents to compete against and learn from... That vision was of a team, and that team was King/Mature/Vice. I'd practiced the latter two a bit already in casuals by this time (to the point of picking up Vice HDs) but I couldn't bring myself to commit to the team yet on account of having no luck trying to master Mature's HDs. The day I finally discovered how to properly drive cancel from her ;b metal massacre (and thus perform her legitimate HD) was the day I decided it was time to stop messing around, and play the game the way I'd wanted to play it the day I found out it existed...
So then, I struggled. My existing tournament team had reached the point of having recently earned me a delicious 2nd place at my local weekly after an intensely satisfying grand final that included a bracket reset... This was the closest I'd ever come to taking the weekly fight money from anyone before, especially considering it was my rival who happened to be my opponent that day. But instead of continuing to play that team, I fought to conquer Mature and Vice's respective neutral games. Learning to fight people with these characters was extremely difficult (especially Vice, realizing I couldn't just throw fireballs all the time from full screen was a huge issue) but the team was so beautiful that I swore an oath to never play King, Mature or Vice unless I played them together as a team. Slowly but steadily, my skills with Mature and Vice grew stronger. My Terry had moderately consistent corner HDs at this point, so Terry/Iori/Shen became the alternate team I'd play in casuals.
Then a few weeks ago, my oath broke. It was a losers' final at our local weekly, and I'd become so frustrated with losing so utterly consistently to my aforementioned sparring partner/rival that my love for the team no longer mattered. I decided Vice wasn't pulling any weight, so I switched her out for Iori after the 1st match in the hopes that it'd give me the win I was so hungry for. It didn't, but in doing so I managed to finally recognize that my tunnel vison of love for that one team had been stunting my overall development as a player. So I got back on track, and put the team aside in order to seek improvement in my game as a whole, with the basic goal of improving my win/loss ratio against the man who had broken my oath. After a few sessions of no luck, this very night I happened to make a breakthrough in understanding my mind's interface with the game while playing. I was so happy for having actually learned something that I didn't bother to spend the effort in applying it just yet, and stood up from that 15-2 "loss" more proudly than ever before. We played a ft10 later, I picked King/Shen/Iori... and I started 3-0 against him. It ended up 10-7 his favor, but as of now I have long-lasting confidence, not just in my ability to play the game but also in my capacity to improve at doing so.
So yeah, I'm gonna run King/Shen/Iori as my main team again. Before tonight I was lacking a meterless game with Shen (when I played him before he was firmly locked into the anchor position due to not being able to hit anyone with more than one HD combo) but now I'm confident that he can play mid when the match calls for it, and if I can have the edge against my rival's Saiki with King, I can do the same against anyone else's point character.
-
*stuff*
I understand all that, but honestly, the DLC trio are more or less the Doom/Vergil of KOFXIII. Of course plenty of other teams can, and do work, but having at least one or more will instantly make a team better, have incredible damage, easier execution and far less weaknesses overall. KOF isn't exempt from the benefits of tier-whoring, balanced though it may be. After using them, picking a team without at least one of them feels underwhelming. And I absolutely hate that. Pick one or two, and fill the rest of the team with Beni/Hwa/Kim/regular version of DLC character and ta-dah!
If a character is comfortable in any team slot, it logically follows a team filled with those characters is more solid than a team that relies more on team order. It's about going into a match with every advantage you feel comfortable using.
And honestly, there's more than one person who refutes the battery/utility/anchor system. Pick three top-tiers and it doesn't matter who has meter or who doesn't. Why pick someone like say, K' when I can pick Hwa Jai and wreck people for 700 damage with almost no effort or execution?
My standards are probably too high. I've played fighters too much to try building teams around favourites anymore.
----
I started out with Andy/Mai/XX, just because I was only playing for fun when I started. They can both run 1st or 2nd, and Mai really loves the meter as anchor. But running them together caused problems, because they're both very dependant on drive meter, not so much EX meter. Andy in 1st would end up hogging a lot of the drive meter that Mai would have wanted for Ryu Enbu loops. So I split them up.
Right now I'm trying Andy/Billy/Kyo and Kensou/Mai/Yuri.
-
*stuff*
I understand all that, but honestly, the DLC trio are more or less the Doom/Vergil of KOFXIII. Of course plenty of other teams can, and do work, but having at least one or more will instantly make a team better, have incredible damage, easier execution and far less weaknesses overall. KOF isn't exempt from the benefits of tier-whoring, balanced though it may be. After using them, picking a team without at least one of them feels underwhelming. And I absolutely hate that. Pick one or two, and fill the rest of the team with Beni/Hwa/Kim/regular version of DLC character and ta-dah!
If a character is comfortable in any team slot, it logically follows a team filled with those characters is more solid than a team that relies more on team order. It's about going into a match with every advantage you feel comfortable using.
And honestly, there's more than one person who refutes the battery/utility/anchor system. Pick three top-tiers and it doesn't matter who has meter or who doesn't. Why pick someone like say, K' when I can pick Hwa Jai and wreck people for 700 damage with almost no effort or execution?
My standards are probably too high. I've played fighters too much to try building teams around favourites anymore.
----
I started out with Andy/Mai/XX, just because I was only playing for fun when I started. They can both run 1st or 2nd, and Mai really loves the meter as anchor. But running them together caused problems, because they're both very dependant on drive meter, not so much EX meter. Andy in 1st would end up hogging a lot of the drive meter that Mai would have wanted for Ryu Enbu loops. So I split them up.
Right now I'm trying Andy/Billy/Kyo and Kensou/Mai/Yuri.
I don't think it is a good idea to compare the DLC characters to the likes of Doom/Vergil from the UMVC3 series. This isn't SFIV or MVC3. While those characters are very noteworthy in the high level game play of KOFXIII, picking those characters don't automatically mean you have the advantage. It isn't that simple. How good you do in KOFXIII, depends on how well you know the fundamentals, how to manage meter, the options you have available, your play style, and your opponents play style. Every character in the game can do up to 700 damage just as easily as Hwa can. Every character is viable for high level KOFXIII game play, but it comes down to a matter of preference, as well as all of subjects stated above. Many top players are winning tournaments on a consistent basis and they don't even use all of the characters you described.
-
*stuff*
I understand all that, but honestly, the DLC trio are more or less the Doom/Vergil of KOFXIII. Of course plenty of other teams can, and do work, but having at least one or more will instantly make a team better, have incredible damage, easier execution and far less weaknesses overall. KOF isn't exempt from the benefits of tier-whoring, balanced though it may be. After using them, picking a team without at least one of them feels underwhelming. And I absolutely hate that. Pick one or two, and fill the rest of the team with Beni/Hwa/Kim/regular version of DLC character and ta-dah!
If a character is comfortable in any team slot, it logically follows a team filled with those characters is more solid than a team that relies more on team order. It's about going into a match with every advantage you feel comfortable using.
And honestly, there's more than one person who refutes the battery/utility/anchor system. Pick three top-tiers and it doesn't matter who has meter or who doesn't. Why pick someone like say, K' when I can pick Hwa Jai and wreck people for 700 damage with almost no effort or execution?
My standards are probably too high. I've played fighters too much to try building teams around favourites anymore.
----
I started out with Andy/Mai/XX, just because I was only playing for fun when I started. They can both run 1st or 2nd, and Mai really loves the meter as anchor. But running them together caused problems, because they're both very dependant on drive meter, not so much EX meter. Andy in 1st would end up hogging a lot of the drive meter that Mai would have wanted for Ryu Enbu loops. So I split them up.
Right now I'm trying Andy/Billy/Kyo and Kensou/Mai/Yuri.
First, Doom/Vergil? No. There's several things wrong with that analogy.
First, this isn't Marvel. In Marvel you pretty much need Morridoom or Zero to win. That game's tiers are way less compressed, the gap between the top tier teams and the rest is much higher, and team synergy is stupidly much more important than in KOF.
Second, grouping the DLC trio together. EX Iori and Karate can reasonably be considered the best two characters in the game, but EX Kyo is a notch below that. Benimaru and Kim, at least, are both better characters than EX Kyo. So there's having to have a DLC character to have a top tier team refuted.
And yes, it's true that a team with 2-3 universal top tier characters is has an advantage over a team that has as much raw power but needs a strict order because they can game matcups a bit. But that advantage just isn't very large if the strict-order team is built properly. There's no appropriate-slot matchup in the game that'd be worse than 6-4, and it's doubtful even a free-order team can finagle themselves more than one point of matchup advantage somewhere, if even that.
Also, with a mono-top tier team, meter use still matters. A lot. You're going with no meter against an anchor with tons of meter, you're at a disadvantage. It may be a slightly smaller one, but you're the underdog full stop because you're the one that will die to a touch.
So not going to contest that a team of universal top tiers is a better idea than some other team, but you're blowing the issue out of all proportion. There's way more things that have an effect - team construction on the not-mono-top tier side and the players' affinity with the characters themselves (very relevant in a game as fast-paced as this) being the biggest ones. What's best in a vacuum may not be the best for you. In SF4, I could play Cammy. I mean, everything ever says I should. She's super easy, super strong, and I could often just autopilot a bunch of wins. Just one problem: She just feels wrong, so playing Cammy is actually negative EV for me.
Consequence: I don't play her and play all manner of shotos instead, plus a bit of Dhalsim because those feel correct to me in that game. KOF is more balanced than that game. Just play what feels good instead of dragging yourself down mentally.
-
Fighting games can absolutely be compared, and KOF and Marvel are no exception. The top-tiers have the damage, the flexibility with meter, the mixups, etcetera, etcetera. Characters with more useful options end up higher in the tiers. It's a universal law of the genre.
Fundamentally, rosters all work the same. There are always characters that are more well-rounded than others and have more options than others. KOF is simply blessed that characters with less damage or options can compete.
I would be snarky and say "You clearly haven't played Marvel", but I'm not going to bother. ChrisG wrecking with Morrigan does not make Morridoom a requirement to win. There are very, very few good Morridoom players, as well as very few good Zero players. There are definitely Morrigan and Zero armies, but very few that can compete at the top. Needless to say Morridoom almost always has Vergil in the back, and almost no competitive Zero team runs without Doom or Vergil.
But, I don't need to prove this. It's more or less a common consensus amongst the Marvel community that adding Doom and/or Vergil to the team instantly makes it a more competitive team. The third doesn't really matter. Morrigan, Zero, Spencer, Magneto, even Jill if you want.
All the while there are numerous high-placing players who use one or more of the DLC trio.
I am comfortable enough with this game that I am happy to learn any team. I don't have any particular playstyle anymore. I just shouldn't have to pick a team of DLC characters to have every minute advantage available.
I really have to disagree on the need for character affinity. Affinity has absolutely no impact on your skill or your ability to read your opponent. You can stick with your favourites all you want - I did, for a bit. Eventually, there comes a point where many players feel they're making life too hard for themselves.
You really can't just pick the characters you like if it's counterproductive to winning.
I'm done. I appreciate the feedback, but I've tried your suggestions before, and it didn't work.
-
snip
KOF and Marvel are two completely different games and they don't really translate with each other all that well. In fact, comparing this game to Marvel is egregious. Another thing that needs to be understood is that not everyone plays Marvel. You don't "need" to pick any of the DLC characters to win in this game. Picking a DLC character or even another particularly strong character in KOFXIII is not going to matter as much because the gaps between the characters in the tiers are very negligible and the player still needs to understand the neutral game, mechanics, fundamentals, how to manage meter, and how to make decisions quickly in such a fast paced game. Tiers are important but it is nowhere near as blatant nor the same as you would say for Marvel. Should you use the said characters, you still need to understand how the game works anyhow sense the game really isn't overly match up dependent. This is not the kind of the game where you can simply "play this character and you'll instantly" and that has been proven countless times. You can easily go a long way with any character you like in this game as they are build around the system (this is a system-first/characters-later scenario - you can't play this game in the same manner as you would with a fighting game like Marvel). Many players like Louffy, KBR, Romance, JuiceboxKing, and even MadKof himself for example did very well in big time tournaments without even using the said DLC characters. In fact, MadKof recently won a FT10 against XiaoHai using just the random select. You're playing a completely different game here.