Dream Cancel Forum

Other Fighting Games => Classic King of Fighters => Topic started by: Dark Geese on December 15, 2010, 08:15:54 PM

Title: The Judge's Letter
Post by: Dark Geese on December 15, 2010, 08:15:54 PM
Per popular demand and in reference to this particular youtube video:

I am posting the Judges Letter about Why KOF and other games are neglected in the USA. I have received permission by nilcam to post this thread so I am posting it. Hope it is an enjoyable read for you all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_RSa6FWo1U

Part I:

Okay, I'm gonna get straight to the point. Fighting games such as KOF, AH3, MBAA, and other titles are clearly neglected The United States. Before the release of SF4, the US was already a weak country in terms of fighting game players, and skill level. These more japanese-oriented fighting games (where the company's primary business interest is Japan) were already weak in numbers before the release of SF4. But as of SF4's release, and unforeseen popularity, the game has now established itself as the #1 fighting game in the US. And has recently proven that some of our top players can compete with big names from Japan, which is widely recognized for having the strongest players in almost any fighting game.

I am going to attempt to explain why KOF, and possibly other lesser titles, are either neglected, or not played seriously in the US.

1.) Street Fighter series
   Lets face it. Street Fighter 2 is often credited for the control scheme that some of these fighting games use. So it is often credited as the first fighting game, and other titles following such a control scheme are "Copies" or "Wannabes". When you have both Street Fighter and Capcom holding such titles, it can immediately flock attention to the Street Fighter series.
   Next issue would be the plane SF is played on. Generally in SF games, jumping forward is not a very good tactic. You often limit a good number of your options and abilities by jumping forward. And you can often leave yourself wide open to be knocked out of the air, and possibly giving the momentum of the match to your opponent. Jumping forward to weaker players is possibly considered an easy way to move forward and possibly open up your characters best combo and pressure abilities.
   Several other fighting games do not limit aerial combat in such a way. KOF in particular gives you 2 different heights, and 2 different speeds you can jump with. Other games give you other options while jumping that can assist you both offensively and defensively. The added plane of aerial combat often makes the games seem faster paced, or harder to play because these are more options the opponent possesses that you have to take into account, and possibly counter.
   How does this relate to the low popularity of KOF in the US? Well, though KOF possesses a very versatile jump system, it is still an over-exaggerated form of forward movement. But due to the low arcs and fast speed of certain jumps, you feel that jumping forward can be one of your strongest offensive tools. Not equating in the fact that you can still be knocked out of the air, or punished for your often thoughtless attempt at getting in on the opponent.

2.) The NeoGeo system
   SNK at some point made a revolutionary arcade system. The MVS. This arcade system allowed you to put multiple games into one arcade machine. Which saved a lot of arcade owners' money. SNK eventually made a home console version of the MVS known as the AES. This home console took all of the arcade feeling from the MVS and brang it to your house. The system came with arcade sticks as the main controller. The games were not "Ported" or "Optomized" for the AES. They WERE the actual arcade games. You could so much as purchase converters which allowed you to use arcade MVS games on your AES console, or vice versa.
   With the full arcade experience at home came a near arcade level price. The console in it's early years ran for $600, and games were so much as $200 individually. The pricetags scared away a lot of fans of the games. Who were realizing these fighting games are now coming to your console and thus being more convenient to play. SNK made the Neogeo CD console which used CD's for the software titles, to offer their titles at a lower price point. But the orignal Neogeo CD suffered from long load times, which were somewhat fixed in the later released Neogeo CDZ. But at that point in time, other consoles were moving forward past the technology of the Neogeo system.
   SNK did not drop the 16-bit Neogeo system. They ran with the system all the way from 1990 to 2003. Other systems became more powerful, and eventually, the support for arcades had died in the US due to the ease and often money saving console ports of arcade games.
   SNK at some point around 2000 went bankrupt, and had to go under another company name, and eventually bounce back to then becoming SNK Playmore. Around this time they barely realized that they need to put the Neogeo system to rest.
   To top all that off, sometime before SNK's bankruptcy. The Neogeo system was very well emulated. And allowed others to enjoy Neogeo games on their computer for free. The company thus loses money and sales.

   Now why did I (poorly) explain the history of the Neogeo system? Because it is a red mark on SNKp's card. In the US we have a bad tendency to judge a book by its cover, because we believe we can base it on the knowledge available to us, and other people's thoughts. SNKp in a few ignorant minds is regarded as a "Failure Video Game Company", with no support to their argument. These people are seriously judging SNKp fighting games now, based on bad business decisions they made years ago. Which is very stupid and gives the games and company a bad name in the US. I will get more in-depth on this later.

3.) Japanese Culture vs US culture
   US culture is very strongly based on convenience when it comes to an individual's decisions with time and money. Generally, Video Games aren't really something that benefit you for the time you put into them. A Japanese individual will more often base his decisions of time and money where he feels he should. There is a higher emphasis on "Whatever your craft or trade, master it" in Japan. Where in Japan a player who dedicates himself to getting stronger in a game will take the losses, travel, and constantly play. A US player will look at the time and money he has to put into getting stronger, and determine that it is either wasteful, or not very convenient.
   Because we don't realize this, we tend to put the Japanese on a pedestal. And through our own laziness and ignorance we determine that we cannot defeat the Japanese, or properly progress in their direction.
   KOF and other titles are not as simple to understand on an intellectual level. And being that we cannot quickly and conveniently grasp the game, we toss it aside because we do not want to put in the time and money. Which would eventually produce the wins we desire.
   It doesn't help that information for a game like SF4 is so available and in your face. One can simply ask for information online (while not attempting to look up said info on his own) and be somewhat promptly answered with the information he was looking for, and maybe a quick bashing on him not looking it up like he should (which he could easily ignore). This displays the convenience factor when a player would like to gather information online for a fighting game. Some people may find it difficult to watch professional level KOF matches, and look up info on the characters that interest them. But from that info, you cannot properly determine the reasoning behind a player's actions in a matchup. Which leads to the next point.

4a.) The 1v1 character system
   The 1v1 character system is, and will always be, the more convenient and easier form of fighting game to get into. You merely invest your time into one character. And with some form of diligence, you will produce a stronger understanding of your characters' particular strengths and weaknesses. And understand matchups better because you are not factoring in abilities other characters you play possess. The 3v3 fighting system KOF possesses does not properly follow such standards. You MUST understand more than one character well if you want to produce wins. This is not simple, and can require much more time put into the game. Because you now have to determine which characters you would like to play, and sometimes even factor in the position a character is in your team, and their capabilities based on their positioning. This also hooks on to another strong argument against competitive KOF.
4b.) Tier Lists
   Lets face it. Tier lists are sometimes good for gauging characters capabilities, and matchups. But we tend to use tier lists and the common occurence of higher tier characters in professional teams as an argument against KOF. If you use a weaker character in a fighting game, you generally are going to have a harder time beating characters that are much stronger. At that point it is up to you to utilize all of your characters' strengths at their maximum potential, and lower the possiblities of one of your characters' weaknesses being exploited by the opponent. In KOF, this can take a lot of time invested into the game. And those who seriously want to maximize their winnings will often opt out for a character they believe has less weaknesses and more strengths. Because the speed KOF can be played at means your characters' weaknesses can be exploited very quickly, and you have to get yourself out of such a situation faster than the opponent who put you in it. A lot of players seriously bash the game because it is generally in a player's best interest to play higher tier characters, if said player desires to maximize their winnings. So new and old players will either not play a character because they believe they cannot reach that character's full potential through tactics and knowledge, or drop the game because they feel it will still not produce them the wins they desire, regardless of the fact that the player likes the character or not. David Sirlin once called such a mentality "Scrublike". They are making up a set of false rules to abide by, instead of playing the game with the intention of getting better and maximizing your wins when necessary.

5.) Community (WARNING: MOST CONTROVERSAL SUBJECT)
   The community behind these lesser fighting games in the US generally has to struggle through their low poplation, often spread out community, games lacking good netplay (or any at all), and even stereotypes. Shoryuken (SRK) forums is one of the largest online fighting game community websites. But it can be very difficult to raise interest in the game that you fancy. To properly get past negligence SRK offers to these lesser fighting games, they often opt out to make their own forum where the primary focus is said fighting game. This form of segregation is actually good because those who seriously possess an interest in the game will come and read what input other players offer. And those not interested can merely choose not to do so. A lot of community members will try to unnecessarily push their fighting game out to the bigger mass that is SF and the Vs series. Sometimes even calling for a petition that their game is chosen as one of EVO's main games the next year. This is not a very good decision for the community. It shows that the community simply wishes for a boost in interest and numbers without actually proving why it deserves such attention. Anyone can call their game good, anyone can call their game skillful. But if they don't prove that it is worth either of those titles, it may not be worth the attention of those who want fighting games with a stronger and larger population community behind them.
Title: Re: The Judges Letter
Post by: Dark Geese on December 15, 2010, 08:56:38 PM
Part II:

The KOF community has time and time again had quarrels about the state of the community and how to move it forward. WITHIN THE COMMUNITY! Instead of playing, and proving themselves to be a community worth being a part of. You even possess members who do not play the game at all, but merely read the never ending arguments that community members have.
   You have members like "Emil" who have a strong interest in the KOF series, and possess very vast knowledge on the game, how its properly played, and matchups. However Emil has expressed multiple times how he is disgusted with the KOF community in America. And that it is being polluted by a scrublike mentality due to the players lacking knowledge and experience. He has even forced himself onto players that obviously do not play the game seriously, and just don't quite understand what it takes to win in the game. At times, members like Emil can show a favoritism to Japanese players. Siting that they are stronger than us, and the content they put out proves it. In a community this small in the US, you can't really do too much judging without referring to match videos and how the player acts within the community.
   Then you have members like "Dark Geese" who feel initiative and dedication is what it takes to get better at the game. He taps into the community of Mexico which is generally stronger than the US, and uses that as a catalyst for improvement. Dark Geese feels that KOF players need to step up and put the time and money into getting themselves better at the game. Whether it means learning Spanish, getting a Passport, and going to Mexico for you improvement. Or tapping into the closest outlet for KOF competition near you. He believes a REAL passionate player will put the hours and dollars into it instead of complaining why it is not convenient for them.
   You have these two kinds of members and others constantly partaking in an ongoing war about how the community should move forward. When they haven't quite realized if they stopped talking about moving forward, and just moved forward in unison. They could get the attention and interest they desire. These new players looking to find a new fighting game generally don't wanna play if the community they have to deal with is full of people who either don't understand the game, or can't stop arguing amongst each other. Which can breed stereotypes and possibly a bad image against the community.

KOF (and maybe other fighting games) are often neglected in the US for these reasons. There may be more underlying reasons. But they lay on the perspective of who is watching and judging this community.
This argument is coming from a KOF community member who is not good at the game at all, and has negatively contributed to the community.
I do not foresee the KOF community really moving forward unless the latest KOF title (KOF XIII) possesses very good and stable online play. Even if you outline to them why their community is small and neglected.

These are just my thoughts I am sharing.
- the_judge
Title: Re: The Judges Letter
Post by: sibarraz on December 15, 2010, 10:45:54 PM
Very interesting reading, which has lots of good points

Even though I one to discuss one, the part of the AES

I mean, sure, your are right with the part that northamericans bash the game just because is SNK, amongst others things, but the problem is, that SNK hasn't made the things better to not look like a failure company, I mean, after 2002, SNKP has made lots of stupid errors in the western market, you must consider that snk is and always will be an arcade company, so even though their library post neo geo is very good in my opinion, lots of players couldn't play them because the politics of scrubs like sony, who don't wanted to publish games like XI, NGBC and others at the time of their releases, oddly enough, it seems like MI2 was somehow slightly popular there, but people lost a lot of touch with SNK games in this decade, then we had SNK, who makes lots of decisions that made them look bush league in the eyes of the more casual players

So yeah, even though the judge is right with the fact that the extended existence of the AES tarnished a little the name of SNK, is not really one factor to consider in this list, hell, thanks to the MVS/AES some casual players and hardcore gamers that I know still had faith in SNKP, because they loved the characters and the games from the 90's, if weren't for the Neo Geo, lots of players would look to SNKP as en even bigger joke than they already think that it is

But in the rest of the points, yeah, he nailed it right

At least here in chile (or south america) KOF is still a name that took the attention of more old players (newbies are guys who will not give it a chance, except guys who doesn't had other options than play in an arcade) and is still a name recognized by some people, I think than in a 95% of the chilean arcades, there must be an AES, and the probability than is a kof between 98-2002 is very high
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: desmond_kof on December 16, 2010, 09:36:37 PM
Damn really interesting...

I think it's kinda sad that the USA SNK scene is just full with fingerpointing people that don't step up to do anything, while the people that do make moves and put time and energy in the games get put down for doing just that. It's really discouraging sometimes.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: Dark Geese on December 17, 2010, 04:53:59 AM
It is very discouraging, hence I focus the majority of my time in other locations...
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: migrations on December 19, 2010, 10:25:51 AM
I like to think in a more positive light about things.  Maybe the US community isn't too great, but the KOF community as a whole remains strong on GGPO and theres always great competition and people to learn from on there.  

Besides this #snkplaymore is a great IRC chat with lots of people that know a shit load and are really willing to help out.  One great thing about the KOF community is that KOF fans are like fighting game snobs, we aren't okay with simple fireball-uppercut characters with the same moves every year.  Because of this snobbery :) our community may not be as big as the Capcom community, but it seems to me to be much more mature and less polluted with random scrubs.

I like the fact that KOF is a bit niche, and with KOF XIII on the consoles, we have a chance to get pretty excited about something (Online net play is the key factor I think).  I'm pretty new to the SNKPlaymore community in general and as a new player I have a passionate optimism for the future of KOF games, and no matter what others do or say we'll always have good competition via GGPO and each other.


  
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: sibarraz on December 19, 2010, 04:15:23 PM
Eh, I don't know, imo in all the communities are scrubs, the difference is that some of them speak in english and the others in spanish

At least here is a good please to post, but sometimes I read lots of scrubs from here or other US forums

PS: I fucking hate mexican KOF youtube fans, they made look KOF fans like morons
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: krazykone123 on December 20, 2010, 07:00:23 AM
I thought the letter was funny, especially the community part.

It is very discouraging, hence I focus the majority of my time in other locations...

Why did you get discouraged? explain in detail, I wanna know.

Besides this #snkplaymore is a great IRC chat with lots of people that know a shit load and are really willing to help out.

True, I'd be lying if I said I didn't learn a few things when I was on the #snkp chan back in early 2009.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: Lygophilia on December 20, 2010, 07:20:00 AM
A relative and myself had something similar to this in discussion from game play today, difference in King of Fighters and Street Fighter. This was one of the reasons why I wasn't interested mostly in Street Fighter anymore, because it had less of what King of Fighters had.

I did think that the third Street Fighter series had a valuable change from game play, because of having different stragedies to perform, which was discontinued by Street Fighter 4. That encouraged me to stay with other fighting games like this one, which seemed to have been fortunate.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: Xxenace on December 21, 2010, 02:13:26 AM
this was a really good read


although i hate that i don't have a way to contribute to any KOF community the most i can do is pick up a few people who would want to try out a new fighting game
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: BiGGDaddyCane on December 21, 2010, 04:51:23 AM
Understand everything. Great read,

By the way, Had a argument with emil on SRK & damn is he a brick wall of stubbornness, that ambitiously backs  his opinions up mostly by invalid statements. He's a good guy, a good KOF fan but, his stubbornness overshadow's his attitude & opinions towards other KOF players outside of the Korean heritage. He puts them on a pedestal.

Anyways great read this, letters should be posted up front page on more fighting gamer websites IMO. Reach out to as much people as it possibly can.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: nilcam on December 21, 2010, 06:33:25 AM
First, thanks to The_Judge for writing out such a thoughtful analysis; thanks to Dark Geese for posting it; and thanks to Desmond Delaghetto for PMing me about this.

The_Judge brings up a lot of good points regarding the KOF community in the U.S. I see the fractured nature of the KOF community to be one of the biggest problems we face. We are fractured along many lines such as which game to play and how to build the community. It's quite sad when a community of people with similar interests cannot set aside their egos long enough to consider other points of view. I like that there are many ideas floating around regarding community building. I respect the approach of Dark Geese and Desmond and also feel that bringing new players in on a local level is very important. The more local competition we have, the more our community will grow both in quantity and quality.

One major problem we had that Dream Cancel addresses is the lack of documentation and information. IRC chat is good for real time advice but does not provide a record of that information. The community's work on the wiki and game threads is a treasure trove of relevant information. Once the information is collected in one easy-to-access place, teaching people to play becomes much easier.

although i hate that i don't have a way to contribute to any KOF community the most i can do is pick up a few people who would want to try out a new fighting game

Dude, I have to disagree with this. Everyone is capable of contributing to the scene is some manner. With all of the discussion here to participate in and the amount of work going into the wikis, it's easy to hop in and add some information to an unfilled page. Hell, adding in the basic template (throws, command moves, specials, DMs, etc.) is very helpful. It just takes a bit of effort. There are lots of games to cover once the 2002UM and 98UM wikis are filled.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: jinxhand on December 21, 2010, 10:38:22 AM
The way I see it, if anyone has an SNK fighter in their hands and plays it, they can contribute... I personally would like to not just put up info on the wiki/threads, but to have actual discussion... I tend to notice some of the threads (including ones I start) look like mini-wikis with no discussion... I personally have a pretty busy schedule, but still manage to put something to the Dream Cancel table, all while trying to level up in KoF... I know I have ways to go with Billy Kane, Heidern, and some other characters, even after tons and tons of matches with them... So the crap I come across I'm gonna put up on the threads for people to read and discuss... Sure, it might get disheartening seeing that you're the only person posting on a thread, but that's where determination and dedication kicks in...

And to you lurkers on this site: Make a friggin' account NOW and get involved!!! I'm not beefing, I just want you cats to stop "window shopping"...
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: Dark Geese on December 22, 2010, 02:02:05 AM
Wow I did not expect this much reaction to the post, but that is great, and it is great to know that the moderators will make sure that people reply in a respectful manner. That is one thing I must again thank the Moderators/Admins for, for making sure things do not go AWOL and I am VERY SURE you all have a "good idea" of what I am talking about lol (not gonna mention any "other sites").

Thank you to all the admin and staff, this is the way it SHOULD BE. As I tell people who ask me about the letter and what the Judge says, everyone is not going to agree on everything, there are going to be disagreements, but it is HOW you handle those disagreements, that is the key!

In regards to about it being very frustrating, this type of stuff here that I deal with is another part of the problem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s-RVzmxJ3U&feature=email&email=comment_received

It is unfortunate that I see a lot of this in the USA, I feel this is hindering the growth of the community. I understand not all videos are going to be high level, but people have to understand that people post videos for other people to learn. However; with that said, there are still those that seem to feel empowered by degrading other people's videos when they do not fully understand the situation, what is going on in the players heads, or how this further detracts others from wanting to post videos!

Also to go even further, these people act as if they are at a high level of play that would justify them to make such claims, when in truth they are not, and further when offered a challenge to prove their claims, they back away, do not accept, and continue to do the same thing over and over again.

About #snkplaymore, in my own personal experience I cannot recommend the place because I am well aware of who runs it, what they are about, their M.O., and how despite what good they may have done for the community, it is without question overshadowed by the bad that they have contributed and continue to contribute on a consistent basis.

Bigdaddycane- I will tell you this much about Emil, as frustrating as it may be talking to him, he is coming around trust me on this, I talk to Lecter on a consistent basis (who talks to Emil) and he is coming around, so much that he also is not sure whether Hummer is going to win in Mexico or not....so that should tell you something, he is finally coming around...
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: nilcam on December 22, 2010, 02:30:36 AM
Dark Geese-

I want to say thanks for the compliment regarding the admin and staff but the real credit goes to the Dream Cancel community. Looking through these posts, I see that not a single comment was modded or edited by anyone other than the original poster. This illustrates the mentality of this community - we're open-minded and open to ideas. I just wanted to hop in and say that.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: migrations on December 23, 2010, 05:24:08 AM
I don't understand what's wrong with #snkplaymore.  As a fledgling fighter it's been an AMAZING resource for getting information and talking to people about KOF games.  It's also MUCH more mature in the discussions then the running gag that is #capcom.  How can you have an agenda behind a chat room?  A chat room is just a collection of people and there seem to be many moderators in the place, not just one. 
    I guess I'm just confused Geese about why it is bad, it's helped me out a LOT. Is there some thing bad about that place that should warrant me not going in the chat room anymore?
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: krazykone123 on December 23, 2010, 06:34:22 AM
Is there some thing bad about that place that should warrant me not going in the chat room anymore?

Nope, I can't think of any. I'll never understand the reason why some people around here hold some personal vendetta against the folks in the chat, they're good people. Well most of them are anyway.

Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: desmond_kof on December 23, 2010, 07:12:22 AM
I have no problems with anyone in the chat room but as I mention there are some people that get on my nerves and make it feel like high school...same with some people I know and associate with offline, lol.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: the_judge on December 24, 2010, 08:50:45 AM
I personally think people need to just accept #snkplaymore. At this point in time, it has established itself well.
Being uncomfortable talking with the regulars in the #snkplaymore channel does not really warrant a new chatroom.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: jinxhand on January 03, 2011, 09:01:56 PM
I like to think in a more positive light about things.  Maybe the US community isn't too great, but the KOF community as a whole remains strong on GGPO and theres always great competition and people to learn from on there.  

Besides this #snkplaymore is a great IRC chat with lots of people that know a shit load and are really willing to help out.  One great thing about the KOF community is that KOF fans are like fighting game snobs, we aren't okay with simple fireball-uppercut characters with the same moves every year.  Because of this snobbery :) our community may not be as big as the Capcom community, but it seems to me to be much more mature and less polluted with random scrubs.

I like the fact that KOF is a bit niche, and with KOF XIII on the consoles, we have a chance to get pretty excited about something (Online net play is the key factor I think).  I'm pretty new to the SNKPlaymore community in general and as a new player I have a passionate optimism for the future of KOF games, and no matter what others do or say we'll always have good competition via GGPO and each other.

There are alot of "closet KoFers" in the sense that they play KoF with 1 or 2 of their friends, but don't have a need to build from that area and don't get out, or they just play arcade mode and get on practice mode riding solo, but they don't get out and battle people (even if they have an online mode)... I know for me, when I was living in Hawaii, a few friends and I played KoF 2003 non-stop and where we played at we would get a bunch of "closet KoFers" that would play and end up buying the game and getting involved more. By the time KoFXI came out for arcades, what started as a few cats on console turned into at least 10-20 people at the Tilt up north, and even people from Hawaiian Brians Billards (HBB for short) would come up there and battle, and vice versa since they had a machine there, with a spectating monitor...

I personally don't mind the fact that KoF seems like a niche, but for awhile the fighting game genre was (and probably still is) considered a niche, so to have a niche within a niche you won't really get noticed... I don't want KoF to sell out to the point that the next installment gets dumbed down so that there's no point in learning the game (i.e. - super noob friendly system changes), but I would love for KoFXIII to be that one game that brings out all KoF players, and makes the "fans" actually want to be more than that (by getting involved with the scene overall)... I'm not knocking the fans at all, but FPS "fans" don't talk about how the HK-5(or pick another weapon) is pretty. They break that (or whatever) weapon down understanding what maps its good for, in what rooms/spaces and against what type of players... Why should we be talking about "Oh I like Kyo's jacket in 2003", when cats aren't even breaking his movelist down, putting up strats and matchups??? I mean don't get me wrong, that "omg" mess is cool for the off topic boards, but I've come across stuff back in the day for many different games (KoF included) where dudes would talk about everything about the game (graphics, sound, etc), except for the game itself (system, combos, strats, etc)...

(my bad for the late post btw)...
Title: The Judge's Letter-My 50 cents on everything being said
Post by: Dark Geese on January 03, 2011, 10:56:16 PM
Okay if you guys want I will post why I do not personally like the #snkplaymore channel. I am respectfully going to post this, but many of the people in there do not really contribute positively to the scene. I speak of these people as The Leech Gang, and basically what it is is anyone that is trying to do something positive they enjoy degrading or putting them down. One of them in particular demonstrated this trait when they posted up on a video that someone should "Just quit playing the game." This is the attitude of The Leech Gang, always looking to cast a stone at someone, but not willing to look in the mirror!

 They enjoy on that channel degrading people behind their backs, discouraging uploading videos, discouraging playing offline, and I could go on and on and on. I have more than enough proof from countless people (That I will choose to keep confidential) that I have seen this over and over and over, not just with how much my name is brought up in their chats behind my back, but also how others are seeing the same type of stuff I see over and over and over again, and it is not productive to the scene at all, they enjoy doing this. So keep in mind people, you will rarely see this while you are on, but when you leave they are talking behind your back.

Again if that channel works for you great, but it does not work for many people because of what I have just stated. These people are quick to criticize anyone trying to do something when they themselves are not in a position to do such a thing, they are holding the SNK community back.

When you degrade people constantly that are uploading videos it discourages people from wanting to upload videos, and then ontop of that you challenge these people to come out and play and they refuse, this laziness in turn permeates throughout the community. Like The Judge says in his letter, you have those that want to travel and those do not.

People unknowingly place the Japanese on a tier because they travel and are willing to get stronger, while you now have "Generation G" (G for GGPO), this new wave of online players that do not travel and do not see a need to travel.

This goes against everything that tournaments stand for, for these people would have very little to talk about if no one travelled to tournaments.

So think about that, when they are helping you learn things, behind your back they are degrading you... So again, I recommend if you deal with that particular channel, deal with it knowing that some of the regulars in there are two-faced.

You all may be fine with that, but I am not fine with that, I personally do not have the time nor patience for those types of things and quite frankly I do not have to tolerate it when I can deal with far better circumstances, more appreciative environments in other locations, and that is where I am getting at. So I personally do not have to accept the #snkplaymore channel, especially when I can go to better places where I do not have to deal with two faced people that enjoy high school drama, sorry not my thing, my time is better spent elsewhere where productive things are taking place.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: krazykone123 on January 05, 2011, 06:06:27 PM
Okay if you guys want I will post why I do not personally like the #snkplaymore channel. I am respectfully going to post this, but many of the people in there do not really contribute positively to the scene.

As long as they're willing to play KOF competitively (by my standards) they're contributing to the scene imo.

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I speak of these people as The Leech Gang, and basically what it is is anyone that is trying to do something positive they enjoy degrading or putting them down. One of them in particular demonstrated this trait when they posted up on a video that someone should "Just quit playing the game." This is the attitude of The Leech Gang, always looking to cast a stone at someone, but not willing to look in the mirror!

But you can find dudes like that everywhere! (on the internet), it's best you just ignore them/pay them no mind.

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They enjoy on that channel degrading people behind their backs, discouraging uploading videos, discouraging playing offline, and I could go on and on and on. I have more than enough proof from countless people (That I will choose to keep confidential) that I have seen this over and over and over, not just with how much my name is brought up in their chats behind my back, but also how others are seeing the same type of stuff I see over and over and over again, and it is not productive to the scene at all, they enjoy doing this. So keep in mind people, you will rarely see this while you are on, but when you leave they are talking behind your back.

They said your name, so what? honestly DG you're letting all this internet trolling get to you. For all the work you put in I'll never understand why you stop just to try and put some internet dope boy IRC *****s in their place, it's a huge waste of time and doesn't reflect well on you or anyone else in the rest of the scene. If they want to gossip about you like a bunch teenage girls on their cellphones let them, it doesn't matter. Be the bigger man do what you have to do opinions from the peanut gallery or not.

With that said I just want to make things clear DG that I was on the #snkp IRC for about a year and a half, and to be honest they didn't make fun of you as much as you make it seem. Most of the time it was harmless jokes from time to time while a few others were out right criticisms, however those criticisms usually came up only when you (or Digi) did/said something stupid and it was just 4 maybe 5 people out of what? 30+ people idling so it wasn't like the whole channel was out to get you. Hope you aren't about to fly off the handle and act like you never did anything dumb or just because you're doing something for the community you're annulled of any kind of negative feedback. Mistakes happen and people do stupid things, it's just that some people are more assertive at pointing them out the second you screw up. You can call it jealousy but it's whatever.

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they are holding the SNK community back.

And you're holding yourself back by wasting your time with them, by the way you might wanna stop with this "Look at me, look at what I'm doing for the community, I'm helping!" nonsense that you tend to bring up in arguments to make everyone else seem like the bad guy, un-warranted self-importance is the quickest way to get trolls and other haters on your back. Take it from me, I don't hop up and down when I do write-ups for the dc wiki, I don't ask for praise nor do I expect it, yeah it's nice to get a "Good job KK123!" every once in awhile but if anything I'm trying to use my work to motivate other people to do it too.

What I'm trying to say it that you have to humble man, shoving your work in peoples face is more likely to net you more haters than admirers. If you just chill and do what you want to do (in a more passive way) everything will fall into place a lot easier.

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When you degrade people constantly that are uploading videos it discourages people from wanting to upload videos, and then ontop of that you challenge these people to come out and play and they refuse, this laziness in turn permeates throughout the community.

Well I wouldn't expect people to rate my shitty KOF videos 5 stars just because I uploaded them lol, btw refusing to accept a $250-500+ and other outrageous amounts for money match challenges ain't lazy man, most KOF peeps in the U.S scene can barely travel to tournaments so you should already know we ain't got money like that. Desmond's boy Dirtywerk got that paper tho'.

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Like The Judge says in his letter, you have those that want to travel and those do not.

The Judge says a lot of things.

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People unknowingly place the Japanese on a tier because they travel and are willing to get stronger, while you now have "Generation G" (G for GGPO), this new wave of online players that do not travel and do not see a need to travel.

Well you can't say that everyone that uses GGPO to play KOF online doesn't want to go to tournaments (some of them do), as much as I want to go to tournaments I (like a lot of other people in the scene) need to get our shit together first, for me if I can't make it to PowerUp 2011 then I'll try to make to EVO instead.

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This goes against everything that tournaments stand for, for these people would have very little to talk about if no one travelled to tournaments.

Good for them, chalk it up to opinions then move along sir.

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So think about that, when they are helping you learn things, behind your back they are degrading you... So again, I recommend if you deal with that particular channel, deal with it knowing that some of the regulars in there are two-faced.

You'll also meet a lot of two faced people in real life too, that's just the way it is, it's best you not dwell on their actions and move along. If you don't like them don't associate with them simple as that, but don't get caught being a hypocrite and end up doing the some of the same ish you accuse them of doing because it will come back and bite you in the ass pretty hard.

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You all may be fine with that, but I am not fine with that, I personally do not have the time nor patience for those types of things and quite frankly I do not have to tolerate it when I can deal with far better circumstances, more appreciative environments in other locations, and that is where I am getting at. So I personally do not have to accept the #snkplaymore channel, especially when I can go to better places where I do not have to deal with two faced people that enjoy high school drama, sorry not my thing, my time is better spent elsewhere where productive things are taking place.

Then it's best that you not flip out every time someone brings up your name in an argument home boy, if you wanna leave that high school drama behind you then you best learn when to just let things go and move forward. This is just my opinion DG, you can ruminate on it, dismiss it, rip it apart, etc. 
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: Dark Geese on January 05, 2011, 07:36:47 PM
I understand what you are saying, my thing is all about mutual respect. People can always have opinions, people are free to think what they want about me etc, but I feel things should be handled the way they are handled here, with more tact and respect. I simply don't have the time nor the patience for stuff otherwise.

In regards to a certain player, I am not going to talk about him anymore, as I have said on my videos, it is a dead topic and furthermore that particular person does not exist to me. That person may have paper, but as I have said specifically, we have more "paper" than he does, no questions about that.. with all due respect we have gone down that path before, so at this point that is basically a dead topic.

In regards to GGPO/online, I know not everyone can travel, those are not the people I am talking about. I am talking about the people that choose NOT to travel because they do not see how that can benefit them at all, and think they can acquire all the skills they need to be at a competitive level in KOF online.

Also refusing $250-$500 money matches to me is lazy, I simply do not understand why someone would expect me to waste my time and play for anything less than what I am going to spend simply paying my way to get to a location. It may seem like a lot of money to people, but they seriously cannot expect me to even remotely think about me paying for all of that just to go play them for a little to nothing.

I simply refuse to do that, that would be foolish on my part, I have done that for 5 years basically flying around the USA for 5-7 man tournaments, I am not going to do that anymore that ship has sailed.

What you have to understand about me arguing with them is it is strategic, do you see me at SRK arguing with them now? No you do not.

My entire purpose for going there was per Lecter's suggestion to go and hype up The KOF Cup 2011, so I went there knowing what I would have to deal with to do that, and now they could be saying anything under the sun and I simply do not care nor do I pay it any mind.

I only truly go to SRK when I need to go advertise and hype up a tournament. The unfortunate reality is that I have to hype up these tournaments because posting them simply in the Tournament and Events section etc is barely gonna get the amount of hype the tournament needs because it is not Street Fighter in the USA, so I have to take on the role of Don King, and hype the tournament up. If that means I have to argue a little bit with people that normally I do not pay any mind, then that is what I have to do. But again, you do not see me talking to them now, and I won't be back there conversing with them stirring things up again until next month, with the sole purpose of hyping up the tournament. I will again state that clearly at the beginning, that I will only be there to hype up the tournament which will be in March. I will probably only be there doing that for 1 day, then I will disappear again and just return to post the results from the tournament. I am trying to raise global awareness of the event, thus I have to hit up whatever popular sites are and raise awareness of the event.

In regards to shoving my stuff in peoples face, well only time I would do that is when I see people I feel that haven't really done ANYTHING going on a tirade disrespecting other players (primary example being when a particular person said a new player should "Quit playing the game"), it is then I put many of these players in their place because I do not feel again they are in any situation whatsoever to be doing such things, and even I, who has a lot more of experience and as I said on the podcast, do not do such things at all.

So if they wanna hate me for that so be it, I will be hated...I am perfectly fine with that.

I hope you understand what I am saying, I am just telling people that there are certain people on #snkplaymore that they have to know are two faced, if they are fine with that that's fine.

I personally cut my dealings with two-faced people both online and in real life.

So in synopsis, if I am not hyping up a tournament, I don't pay any of them any mind whatsover.

You'll be hard pressed to ever even see me in the channel from this point forward, and if for any reason I am there, it will be like SRK, just to raise awareness and promote, otherwise I have no reason to be at either SRK or #snkplaymore whatsoever, I feel my time is better served elsewhere.

I have done my part, I have called them out to a challenge, they may view it unreasonable but so is dishing out that type of money only to make back dimes and nickels basically. It has to be a win-win situation for us both, not just for one person, and that is how I operate now, which is not how I use to operate in the past.

So with that being said I move on to bigger things and let them talk, I will only see it and it will be relevant only when I return to SRK in February to hype up The KOF Cup, otherwise to me it does not mean anything...

But with that said watch how I return to SRK in February, watch how I deal with them this time, I  am probably only going to make one post then be gone, I would prefer not to engage with them at all, but I have to walk the fine line between hyping things up, and at the same time not constantly dealing with them..

-DG
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: sibarraz on January 05, 2011, 07:39:53 PM
to be fair with the travelling comparission, you can't compare travelling within japan than travelling in the USA, those are 2 different realities, from the size of the country to the transport
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: Dark Geese on January 05, 2011, 07:53:26 PM
to be fair with the travelling comparission, you can't compare travelling within japan than travelling in the USA, those are 2 different realities, from the size of the country to the transport

That is true, but bottom line is still the same as I told people on the podcast last night, if you want to compete with the top players in your region/country/whatever game you play, bottom line is you are going to have to travel (and I mean leaving the country). The top players are travelling, so to compete with them you are going to have to at the least do what they are doing. To beat all of them consistently you are going to have to do what they are doing and more, so in others words again I tell people it's not easy, sacrifices have to be made, choices have to be made, it's not easy being a top player, but that's why they are Top Players, they make those sacrifices that other players do not make, they go the extra miles (lol literally) that the normal person does not take, all of this adds up to a top player.

If you think like an average player and do the things that an average player does- You will be an Average player.
If you think like a Top Player and do the things that a Top player does- You will eventually become a Top player.

There is a saying, Shoot for the stars, and though you may not reach the stars, you will be amongst the clouds.

Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: sibarraz on January 05, 2011, 08:51:33 PM
Well, that's true too

The situation with KOF is hard in the USA, more than anything on how popular is the game in the country to really move an scene

For example in South America, you had lots of places to play KOF in lots of countries, in Santiago you can had an amazing level without travelling more than 1 hour at worse, you can find lots of arcades or even organice your own tournaments, and isn't that hard to found even guys who don't play KOF seriously anymore, but at least played it. Mexico happens sometimes slightly similar but in an even bigger scale

In the USA the game is so niche that is really hard to create an scene and motivate people to start spending good money for a game that doesn't seem to move that much, and that hardly could attract new players that will take it seriously only travelling and playing, you still need the support that the company gave you with a game that you can really found anywhere, if not for an arcade, for the game being decently popular to spread it and be motivated to find people to play it. SNK pretty much died with the PS2 in USA, their stupid politics where an impediment to release some great games like XI at the right time, and there you're only option to make something popular are consoles, in japan, asia, center or south america you still had lots of cheap arcades with some copy of any KOF from the neo geo

At least I think that the problem to create an better kof scene is more from the proper games (distribution more than anything, I'm not talking about the quality of those, I still think that beside those random idiots who don't know WTF are they talking about the serious fighting game fans or even some casuals still respect KOF) than the players, even though they are not helping either

At this point, I think that USA players must be waiting or hoping to see KOF XIII suceed the enough to start motivating people, at this rate it will be hard to expect someone to move if there is not a real motivation, and to a lesser extent I understand them, but like I said in another thread, wasting their time talking about how much SF IV sucks, and fighting within the proper members there will never achieve anything
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: Dark Geese on January 05, 2011, 09:44:07 PM
I agree with what you say completely, SNKp does have its share of problems in regards to this, but also something to take into consideration, for those people that are waiting on KOF13, they have to from a global perspective realize that in order to better themselves in 13 they need to be playing the older games, or if not then they will find a very steep learning curve in 13 with everything they have to learn from the beginning; whereas the seasoned veteran will be able to jump right into the game based on knowing the older ones. I get a lot of people talking to me now about holding a Regional Qualifier for my proposed World KOF Cup in the USA, and unfortunately the reality is that the USA has a steep hill to climb before even being mentioned in the top 5 countries in this particular Region of the Western Hemisphere in regards to having a Qualifier. People cannot just rely on Arcade Infinity/California and people like me to carry the entire USA scene, there has to be similar skill levels across the entire country to warrant having a Regional Qualifier!

If I were to do a Regional Qualifier for multiple KOFs in the USA, I would take a lot of heat from other countries because of the low level of play being seen, my rationale would be deservingly questioned when there are many other regions where the level of play overall would be much higher. People need to see the World KOF Cup as a serious event, thus there needs to be serious level of play and attendance, thus all of this is taken into account as to why the USA at this point would not be a good location for the Regional Qualifier. Hopefully what I am saying will MOTIVATE players to get better and take things more seriously, but until that happens and the level of play is at the least comparable to AI's across the board then it is hard for me to imagine having a Regional Qualifier for The World KOF Cup in the USA.

 The USA has to at least IMHO show skill level comparable across the board to those of those other regions like Central and South America, Mexico, Asia, Middle East before I feel they would warrant having a Regional Qualifier for the World KOF Cup.

The reality is that is not going to happen overnight, the only way that is going to happen is if what you said happens in regards to motivation, AND more people start travelling outside of the USA, because people need to know why these other countries are chosen over the USA for a Regional Qualifier firsthand, and see what has to happen before the USA is even in the discussion for holding a Qualifier.

Also about SF4, I tell people do not talk about things they know very little about. I say this to SF players talking about KOF as well, just state briefly why you do not like the game, but do not go on a tirade about it if you are not well versed in the game. So yes degrading SF4 does no good to bringing more people into the  USA KOF community.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: sibarraz on January 06, 2011, 12:26:19 AM
Yep that's true, like I said, it's a very complex situation that involves lots of things, I share your opinion that they need to learn older kof's to get better in XIII if they don't want to be naked when the game gets a release (hell, here in Chile I got raped in XIII the second day that the game was put in the cabinet, and by guys who had been playing 2002 maybe since his release date

Lol, they already know how to use Raiden : (
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: desmond_kof on January 07, 2011, 02:18:52 AM
You fellas think that the dreamcancel chat room is really needed especially for players that don't want to go to #snkplaymore? If people really think so, then why is the chat room channel always empty?
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: sibarraz on January 07, 2011, 02:39:48 AM
I honestly don't know that here exists a chat xD
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: krazykone123 on January 07, 2011, 06:37:59 AM
You fellas think that the dreamcancel chat room is really needed especially for players that don't want to go to #snkplaymore?

Nilcam and ANSWER said that, not me bro.

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If people really think so, then why is the chat room channel always empty?

You tell me lol, dunno why it's there if yall ain't gonna use it.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: Dark Geese on January 07, 2011, 06:53:20 PM
You fellas think that the dreamcancel chat room is really needed especially for players that don't want to go to #snkplaymore? If people really think so, then why is the chat room channel always empty?

I personally would prefer the DC chat room anyday of the week, I'll even drop in there helping people out tremendously when I am not busy with work/school etc, I would be more than happy to help people out.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: nilcam on January 07, 2011, 09:22:32 PM
You fellas think that the dreamcancel chat room is really needed especially for players that don't want to go to #snkplaymore? If people really think so, then why is the chat room channel always empty?

I put up a poll to see if people wanted it and the few who responded were interested. It's intended to be a feature for the Dream Cancel community, to be used in any way it's needed. It was pretty helpful the day we played on GGPO and ArcLive. I wouldn't be opposed to scheduling times for gameplay discussion there.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: desmond_kof on January 08, 2011, 04:11:04 AM
Damn, you can't sit idle in the chat? Didn't know that. LOL.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: nilcam on January 08, 2011, 04:12:39 AM
Damn, you can't sit idle in the chat? Didn't know that. LOL.

You can, if you'd like.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: desmond_kof on January 08, 2011, 04:19:14 AM
How you do that? I'm there now. I tried a few minutes ago and I got kicked after a while.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: nilcam on January 08, 2011, 05:11:13 AM
I think you need to register your nickname.

Use this code: /msg NickServ REGISTER password email

The system will send you a code to register your nickname and that will provide you with more privileges.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: desmond_kof on January 08, 2011, 05:16:57 AM
Mine is already registered...
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: nilcam on January 08, 2011, 03:53:37 PM
Maybe it's something I need to enable. I'll check into it.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: Aenthin on February 08, 2011, 12:44:23 PM
You're still getting kicked out, Desmond? I've been on the #dream_cancel IRC for hours on IRC or Mibbit yet I still haven't gotten kicked out. Kinda weird that you do.

Also, as much as I try to check the IRC for people, I alt-tab a lot, making people think I'm AFK or something. It makes me sad when someone logs in only to log out as quickly as they got in. ^^;

Maybe we need mods dedicated to the channel.

---

Anyway, yeah. This is a good read, though I don't really have anything to say apart from what's already said.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: desmond_kof on February 08, 2011, 06:03:05 PM
Aenthin, if you look at my last post, it was almost a month ago, I fixed the problem a few weeks ago using mibbit.com.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: Aenthin on February 09, 2011, 04:40:24 PM
Ahaha. I was still thinking it was January. My bad, my bad.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: steamwolf on April 02, 2011, 11:25:52 AM
Albeit for me to revive old threads, and forgive me for being so late to the party here irregardless but...I'd like to share a few thoughts.

For one, according to the Judge, the "Street Fighter" mentality has kinda scared people off from playing KoF. I could see that, but I don't see Street Fighter as THE American fighting game especially when things like Tekken 6 still sell better overall. Street Fighter IV has sold well, but take a look back in time around the late nineties and early 2000s. What really began to cause a stir and kept the community alive was truly, Marvel vs Capcom 2. This was THE American game. It was not widely played outside the US, not in Japan and not in Central/South America. It is basically an American dominated scene. Back then, the community was smaller and so many fans of <insert game here> kind of melded in with the rest of them here in the states. But Marvel dominated here, and always has. You can say SF is Basketball but then that would make Marvel? American Football. And it pretty much is that way still today. You got some Japanese players like Tokido, interested in playing but overall the Japanese players aren't accustomed to it and don't play.

Now that point goes on to something else The Judge had to say. This goes along with how the "three vs three" turns people off. If you look at America as dominated by SF? Yes, you're right. However, I see things differently. I see more of the casual or less "fans" of a certain series, branching out more into other areas. Games like Tekken, appealing more for being a more realistic fighting game experience. Coupled with the fact that the core and strength of the FG community America was Marvel vs Capcom 2, a 3v3 fighting game with a pretty huge emphasis on not only jumps but FLIGHT as well as TAGOUTS? I seriously question KoF scaring people off with just jumping and 3v3. The notion seems silly when you understand the MvC2 factor in all this. Street Fighter seriously began to die off around the time MvC2 came out. Sure there was Alpha 3...but it didn't have nearly the same impact as MvC2. And 3rd Strike wasn't even recognized here for years to come.

Now thats all just mostly, me seeing a few flaws in the argument. Overall, Judge makes some great points but I really don't think it has much to do with KoF scaring people off, or the SF Factor. Don't get me wrong, people LOVE SF here as well but...its not the same as Marvel is here. After all...its mahvel baybee. But now lets go on to something that I believe is a much larger problem. One many KoF fans do not see, nor do many Capcom, Arc System Works, etc fans see. Do you know how much of the industry fighting games combined hold? Thats every fighting game currently selling on the market, between every company out there period. I'll tell you, but you won't believe me too easily or like it. Our genre? Holds a large 3% of the market. Yep, three percent. Thats a lot ain't it? Almost as much as...wait...no. No its NOT a lot. Uh oh! So whats selling? Well, FPS' sell and RTS is picking up as well. Strategy games and RPGs hold the largest dominance in the industry. While you can say SFIV sold well, I'll tell you this: it sold average at best. Do you know big name rpgs sell five mil pretty regularly? If not more? Most big-budget FPS games sell close to ten mil, which is ten times more than SFIV. You can say that SF hasn't been in the industry for ten years and yeah neither has Marvel...but the industry has changed. Back in the early 2000s, gaming was still niche. The PS2 succeeded in turning gaming mainstream, which was only furthered pushed forward by the Wii. The 360 brought the strength of the FPS genre to light, and Starcraft II as revived the RTS scene. Now if you look at the big leagues, people who get sponsored to play FPS? Look at them. They have teams, they have fans who want autographs and they get LEGITIMATE corporate sponsorships and are paid to play. What do we have? A few teams that seem shady about payment and Madcatz, who is an American company and only sponsors a Japanese player. Awesome.

And SFIV is the best selling fighting game right now! And yet its only average in sales! Now try to imagine what kind of numbers KoF, Blazblue, etc hold. How much they matter on the whole, compared to all this. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the problem: people are too busy living in a bubble, or too busy pointing fingers and whining to notice the overall, frightening, truth: Fighting games are still on the verge of death. This is a concept many may be hard-pressed to believe but I go by actual results. Check vgchartz.com sometime and look up the sales figures on fighting games. Then compare them to FPS or RPG. You'll quickly see even without the ESA report, this is the unfortunate truth. I've come to believe that everyone needs to spread FIGHTING game awareness, and quit worrying about trying to get KoF's name out there. Or Street Fighter. Or Marvel. Or Blazblue. Spread EVERYTHING! I mean who cares who wins at this point? They might ALL vanish soon. Oh and this "boycotting" crap needs to stop cause uh...doesn't help, only hurts the overall problem. Many people may feel this is over-exaggeration on my part, or may feel it won't matter in the long-run but...Capcom can disappear again at any time. Tekken was not enough to sustain the industry. 60% of Capcom still feels SF should not continue and they are being very limiting on what older titles they decide to bring back. They could stop this at any time...and then whats gonna happen? SNK is not capable of saving the entire industry and sad to say it, the only fighting game with the sales figures to stand a chance of keeping things alive is Smash. Yeah, sucks doesn't it? But at times like this, its better to embrace everything than continue hating or pointing fingers. And I also see, the entire FG community is more spread out now than ever before. I don't know if this is a good thing or not but...we as FG players need to spread the word of all games, not just SNK. At least, this is my stance. Around here, I maintain my SNK love but I just can't justify doing solely that outside of this place. I'd rather see SNK fall forever than see the entire genre crumble away into history like Pac-man and Donkey Kong.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: desmond_kof on April 02, 2011, 05:55:32 PM

And SFIV is the best selling fighting game right now! And yet its only average in sales! Now try to imagine what kind of numbers KoF, Blazblue, etc hold. How much they matter on the whole, compared to all this. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the problem: people are too busy living in a bubble, or too busy pointing fingers and whining to notice the overall, frightening, truth: Fighting games are still on the verge of death. This is a concept many may be hard-pressed to believe but I go by actual results. Check vgchartz.com sometime and look up the sales figures on fighting games.

I strongly disagree with this, I feel that fighting games are back in force of popularity not because of sales figures but because of how many people are playing them nowadays, new and upcoming games, the hype and excitement around them and how many people are interested in learning them.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: solidshark on April 02, 2011, 06:16:50 PM
I'm chiming in on this one late too; read it, but just now decided to speak up. I agree on some level with most of what's been said already. Thanks to Dark Geese by bringing up the Judge's letter, and especially thanks to Steam for his comments, which do drive an even bigger reality home.

The closest arcade to me is really a LAN center (the Gameyard) that has 360's, PS3's, and several PCs. I've gone there to Blazblue, SFIV, and Tekken casuals, and often several show up. This is also the place where I tried holding Michigan SNK ranbats, where I'll try again once things in RL get back in order to do so. Problem is, put all the people that come to those casuals for every fighting game, and it still doesn't compare to the # of people playing FPS and RTS on a slow weekday. As much as we might not see it with the surge of interests in fighters in the industry, the fighting genre can disappear again off the mainstream/casual interest radar as easily as it did before SFIV showed up. Yes there was Tekken, and even constant KOF's abroad, and even Smash, but pitted against any average FPS and it's sunk.

The fighting game industry is a grow/die type of industry, it's growing now with familair franchises making new titles (SF, Marvel, MK, SFvsTekken, KOF, etc), and even with independent titles that might make some impact like Skull Girls. In all of that, the best thing any and everybody can do is support everything we like. Fighting is pretty much my favorite genre, and I like most fighters old or new. I feel a need to support SNK a lot more because of how little spotlight it gets in a genre that already suffers from a lack of spotlight, but I won't support only SNK; mostly, but not only. Most fighting fans should realize that every consumer and every consuerm's actions counts. Whether your a hardcore, casual, or somewhere in-between, show support by paying, playing, organizing, hosting, teaching, community-building, traveling, something.

I hope it's really like how Desmond says, but it might be better if we treat it like it's not in force
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: steamwolf on April 03, 2011, 12:02:52 AM

And SFIV is the best selling fighting game right now! And yet its only average in sales! Now try to imagine what kind of numbers KoF, Blazblue, etc hold. How much they matter on the whole, compared to all this. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the problem: people are too busy living in a bubble, or too busy pointing fingers and whining to notice the overall, frightening, truth: Fighting games are still on the verge of death. This is a concept many may be hard-pressed to believe but I go by actual results. Check vgchartz.com sometime and look up the sales figures on fighting games.

I strongly disagree with this, I feel that fighting games are back in force of popularity not because of sales figures but because of how many people are playing them nowadays, new and upcoming games, the hype and excitement around them and how many people are interested in learning them.

You can strongly disagree, but the sales figures show how many people are playing. Its not like there are ten million people playing with free copies or anything here. I can show you actual sales data to show this, and while you wanna think its strong sad to say its not. People can't play unless they buy the games, and if people aren't buying the games then that shows how many people are actually playing. It may seem like a lot, but compare it to whats actually working and you'll see the genre is still very much on the brink of fading away. It is not as bad as it was, but by no means has SFIV saved things forever. Don't confuse hype with reality here. And you must remember by a company's standards, SALES are what will determine if they keep making fighting games and Capcom mostly does not want to continue this. Why is that? Do you think they have a hatred for it? No, it is because of sales. This is the issue we are faced with here man its not a fantasy or opinion. It is fact.
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: jinxhand on April 03, 2011, 08:26:12 AM
Man it's like this:

Fighting games are the new "popular hobby", especially given the fact that most of the games released since SF4 (including SF4) are easy accessible games that have been dumbed down for the newer generation of fighters... It's not on the verge of death, but it's more of a spike per sť, where there's a quick boost in sales and hype, but overtime, that spike is gonna drop on the other side, and make way for the "new trendy gaming genre"... It's nowhere near what it was back in the "golden era" where Capcom and SNK and a plethora of other gaming companies spewed out fighters for saturn, ps1, ps2, dc, n64, xbox and even gamecube... Now, only a few games really come out, and those that give much hype (heavy marketing = popularity), money, and has a huge amount of support for the online community get mad play and the others, well it kinda depends on the FG community that supports that particular game... That's why so many people get on the SF4/Tekken train and not the KoF/VF train... There have been people who make excuses saying "I don't play 2d fighters", but still get on SF4, or they say things like "I always loved KoF/VF over SF/Tekken, blah blah blah", but barely get on KoF or VF...
Title: Re: The Judge's Letter
Post by: cHuCo_ on May 15, 2011, 09:05:54 PM
Well I see some good points here, but reality is that the fps comunity is not really that popular in a global scale. I see it only popular in the US and Europe really. Mainly because not every single person in the planet has the luxury to own a 360/ps3. I myself always considerd the fighting game industry as futbol(soccer), its the more playd sport around the globe, but in US? you got others sports overshadowing it like baseball, basketball, NFL, ect. I dont even worry about kof that much since i really dont see it dying in my area any time soon cuz i live in a SoCal bordertown(not SD) and visit Mexico quite often and the arcade scene there is pretty popular and also there are kof cabinets all over town in every corner sadly most of them run the plus version but that still encourages people from 8-year-old to teens to go to the arcades and play more competative in the vanilla version and come accross playing newer kofs against the seasoned 30-year-old veterans that play kof since 95-96 probably.