Dream Cancel Forum

King of Fighters XIII => Character Discussion => Chin Gentsai => Topic started by: nilcam on July 27, 2010, 03:00:48 AM

Title: Chin Gentsai (Arcade Version)
Post by: nilcam on July 27, 2010, 03:00:48 AM
(http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/af171/dreamcancel/kofxiii/chin.gif)

Notation
;a = Light Punch
;b = Light Kick
;c = Strong Punch
;d = Strong Kick

* = EX version possible

Command Moves
Uronkochu - ;df + ;d
 ∟Feint - Press ;d again or hold ;df + ;d

Nikiyaku - ;df + ;b. ;b *

Special Moves
Chokaroh - ;dn ;dn + ;b / ;d >
 ∟Standing A (Press ;a during Chokaroh)
 ∟Nikiyaku (Press ;b during Chokaroh)
 ∟Getsugasosho (Press ;c during Chokaroh)
 ∟Far D (Press ;d during Chokaroh)
 ∟Zanbantetsu (Press  ;dn during Chokaroh)
 ∟Press  ;b ;d to cancel stance

Zanbantetsu - ;dn ;dn +  ;a / ;c *
 ∟Getsugasosho (Press ;a / ;c during Zanbantetsu)
 ∟Press  ;up to stop crouching

Suiho -  ;dn ;db ;bk+ ;a / ;c *

Ryu Sogeki - ;dn ;db ;bk + ;b /  ;d *

Inshu - ;bk ;dn ;db + ;a / ;c (Drink up to five times.  Increases offense while decreasing defense per drink)

Kaitenteki Kutotsuken - ;bk ;db ;dn ;df ;fd + ;b / ;d *

Desperation Moves
Tohkuhitenhoh - ;dn ;df ;fd ;dn ;df ;fd + ;a / ;c *

Tetsuzankou - (Drunk) ;dn ;df ;fd ;dn ;df ;fd + ;a / ;c

Neomax
Suisou Gouran Enbu - ;dn ;df ;fd ;dn ;df ;fd + ;b ;d (ground or air, can be controlled the direction of the flames)


Chins Wiki entry (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chin_Gentsai_(XIII)).

Console changes:
- (shown in video) Chin can do a close C from his d,d+K stance
- (shown in video) The weak version of his counter now has the attack come out faster than before and can connect into his rolling attack (HCF+K). As a result of this the counterattack almost never whiffs anymore, and there are very few situations in which he canít follow up.
- (shown in video) He has less lag after his normal throw (both when in his stances as well as normally) and he can actually do followups in the corner.
- Chinís defense no longer decreases when he has drink stocks
- The active time of his counters has been decreased. The normal version now has the active duration of the arcadeís EX version, and the EX versionís is shorter still.
- His EX counter does less damage, reduced from 237 to 199.

Yamamoto Ė We added some interesting buffs to gameplay using d,d+K. Although parry time on hk+LK {Ex qcb+BD} has been reduced, the overall frames are shorter making it difficult to get punished. Drinking is easier to use compared to the arcade now that there is no defense penalty. Please have fun with the now trickier Chin
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on July 27, 2010, 09:32:52 AM
Chin's Technical Reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H73NEY7sfQ&#t=4m48s

From CX:

Quote from: sugarboy
through my experience playing with chin in this KOF this is what i got

Chin

Tactics:

rdp + A or C
it is really hard to pull it out, the key to pull it all the time is u have to make sure to hold the lever at the corner at the end of the bdp before hitting the punch button, if u do it this way you will never miss it any time and it will b a piece of cake

qcb + B or D
other than being able to counter opponents physical attacks he can also dodge fireballs and react to them as if they were physical attacks B or D version (probably works only on normal fireballs, might get hit by fireball neglecting fireballs)

hcf + B or D
MY FAVORITE MOVE, it's his key move in this game other than being able to escape fireballs except the ones running on the ground he can also get Maxima's balls while doing his (what ever) cannon (qcb + A or C) without getting hit, and many other moves like Maxima's.
the most important point in this move after it lands on the opponent (either blocked it or got hit by it) u r able to free cancel into any other special move (except his DM) for example: hcf + Kick -> df + B OR qcb + A OR qcb + Kick, depends on either you want to charge in to continue a combo or pushing your opponent forward to have enough recovery time to block or to trick your opponent and run backwards and u might get a chance to counter him.


Combos

hcf + B or D
please read the tactic section before this.
u can free cancel it into df + B then qcb + A (100% at the corner and 70% mid screen) or just to make sure u don't miss such chance just cancel it into qcb+A

df + B (once only)
in this KOF if it lands on your opponent in midscreen or corner you can connect it with qcb + A all the time, forgot to mention that u have to wait a sec or 2 until you enter the next command

qcb + A
to drive cancel after it is the key to giving your opponent a lesson to not underestimate u ever again for picking chin.

if you are in the middle of the screen it is recommended that you drive cancel it into hcf + B and then you will have free cancel chance after hcf + B lands on your opponent you can hit qcb + A again (or df+b but not sure if it connects all the time in mid screen cause i got it connected many time and not connected many times too so it is still under research)

if you are in the corner you can cancel it into df + B then df + B again *OR hcf + B then qcb + A again!! (i guess you got yourself the HD combo loop in your head now huh?)
or qcb + A -drive cancel-> df + B -> df + B -> EXDM (only? still under research)

and i got an experimental combo didn't try it out yet just thought about it
at the corner qcb + A -drive cancel-> df + B -> qcb,hcf + Punch (got to have at least one bottle).

HD Combo Suggestion

his HD combo i was able to pull so far goes like this
at the corner: jump D -> C -> B+C -> C -> [df + B (once) -wait a sec or 2-> qcb + A -HD cancel-> df + B (once) -wait a sec or 2-> df + B (once) -wait a sec or 2->]

repeat the loop between those [] brackets and u can pull the DM when ever u feel like it and u know the rest

of course u can mix hcf + Kick inside that loop but it will be tricky and much more harder so take this loop as starters and then make your own



Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on August 14, 2010, 02:39:43 AM
Time for a mini write up for Chin that I'm been pushing back (some impressions have been written already but I'm going to write with a blank slate) and is a work in progress:


Normals(dmg):
Far A(25): Standing forward poke, average range (in Chin terms lol), fast, chains into s.A/d.B and is cancelable.  4/5

Far B(30): Standing low kick to the shin, must be blocked low, is cancelable but does not link to any normal.  Great for his high low game since it needs to be blocked low --> df.B.  3/5
 
Far C(80): New horizontal with a slight upwards swing with both arms (very drunken fist like), has deceivingly good range (in Chin terms) and it cancels as well (great to cancel into df.D, but not a true combo).  If anticipated early enough, use this for anti-hops into df.B.  4/5

Far D(80): Longest range move for Chin, solid kick to the gut, button can be held to go into his kick stance.  Also used for HD activations explained later.  3/5

Close A&B: Same as their far versions.

Standing close C(70): His combo starter of choice, double palm to the chest--comes out fast, cancelable, good priority, feels meaty.  5/5

Standing close D(70): Leans back drunkenly while kicking forward (very drunken fist like). Comes out slower, still cancels, I personally never use it. 2/5

Standing CD(75): Leans forward and hits with one arm, good speed, cancelable, good range for Chin.  It should be noted that due to the strange crossup mix up of XIII, avoid using his GCCD on jump-ins since it tends to miss a lot.  Use his counter qcb+B/BD instead. (4/5)

Down A(25): Quick low hit, can still be blocked high,  pretty standard, used in his BnB combos.  Chains into d.A, d.B, s.A, fast and is cancelable. 5/5

Down B(30): Front sweep, slightly slower than his down A, about the same range, is cancelable and chains into d.B, d.A, s.A.  Since it can be canceled, play around with his d.B into df.D overhead.  5/5

Down C(70): Slight diagonal upward elbow, not that good for anti air, and the new far C does a better job for that role.  Nevertheless, it's cancelable so it's somewhat useful. 2/5

Down D(80): Real low sweep as Chin basically lies on his back and does a double thrust with his feet.  Good range, good recovery but is not cancelable. 3/5

Jump A(45/40 on hops): Horizontal punch with a slight upward angle, fast and is a great choice for air-to-air.  Use this instead of j.CD if they are already above you or started jumping before you. 4/5

Jump B(45/40): Standard martial arts fly kick, comes out slower but stays out longer than any of his jump attacks. Decent range. (3/5)

Jump C(72/70): Chin lies horzontally in the air, good solid j.C, great priority and crosses up well. 5/5

Jump D(70/68): Jumps and faces backwards while kicking backwards (forward) himself drinking at the same time; it's actually a really funny animation.  Good horizontal reach, decent air to air, good priority, good move for a vertical jump too. More difficult to use as a crossup but still good.  5/5

Jump CD(90/80): Real quick horizontal swing of the foot, good horizontal range, extremely good j.CD overall (I would put it in the top 5 due to it's speed an amazing priority).  One of his key tools in zoning. 5/5


Command Attacks (weak/strong/Ex):
Far D (hold): Goes into kick stance. 3/5

df.D(45): Overhead flipkick.  Comboable by itself, too slow to combo into unless maybe off a counter (in XII it was possible off a counter) to count as a combo.  If you press and hold the D it cancels, or if you tap D again it cancels. You can be thrown during this animation strangely, but it's all worth the risk coz this is one of his key combo starters. Automatically puts you into his kick stance if you don't do anything, but most of the time press punch and it'll do his quickie punches, dx2+P.P, right after (can do 2-3 sets and canceled out of it). 5/5


Special Attacks(Posses Ex version):
qcb+K(80/40/40.70x2.80)(Ex): Chin walks backwards 2-3 steps (last for about 2 second) in a seemingly drunken state with his head down awaiting for an attack; this move is a counter.  If he is attacked he'll do on cancelable s.D (note, if you don't cancel the s.D the opponent will have frame advantage) for the B counter. The B counter counters all specials, and air attacks.  The B counter even counters projectiles, it'll trigger the kick however neither party takes damage and the projectile passes thru. The D counter counters normals including low hits, it will do the same only he'll flip backwards immediately so a df.B might work, or a well timed hcf+K.  Ex Counter counters everything, he'll do a series of four hits that end in a qcb+P that can be free-cancelled into hcf+K.  If it's the D version hcf+K you can only connect it with df.BD midscreen (otherwise df.B in the corner), and the B version you can do df.B into qcb+A [DC], hcf+K...).  The Ex counter does 26% alone without considering the combos it leads to or additional damage that comes with drinking.  5/5

qcb+P(60/120)(Ex): A quick hit to the face with the back of his fist.  A version is quick, C version might be a little slower and has slightly more reach (I only use A version).  Deceivingly good range and recovery but not safe if done real close.  You can drive/super/Ex cancel out of it.  Ex version has invincibility and is quicker.  5/5

hcf+K(70/90/120)(Ex): Chin rolls across the ground and ends in a backfist to the chest area.  B doesn't seem to go as far although D seems to startup quicker.  This move alone, radicalized Chin's gameplay from XII (which was strong already) since it allows you to free cancel into any special (no stances/supers).  Of course you can chose to deplete a cancel and super cancel into one of his DMs if you like.  Mid fireballers have to watch or even stop throwing them completely lest they want to eat a 35%-40%+ combo. Ex version is much faster and is invincible.  Most common specials to free cancel into are qcb+A or df.B.  If you distance yourself correctly, even if they block hcf D, qcb A, most of the time, you can qcb+A (again) them in time while they try to punish you. Mid screen, use B if you want to do df.B, qcb+A loops, and use D mid screen if you want to use df.BD 5/5

rdp+P: Drink.  Chin takes a swig from his gourd and he gets darker in color.  XIII makes Chin have an annoying overlap with his qcb+P, make sure you hold the diagonal for a split second before pressing P.  Chin increases his offense damage by 10%  The max you can drink is 5 drinks.   Every drink you also take more damage.  The scaling is as follows: 105%->111%->117%->125%->to a final 133% (Takes more damage).  The drinking animation has slight lag (Note:  Chin's taunt will cause him to drink, it's slow at first and begins to drink faster until finally going into a drunken state.  You cannot cancel his taunt so use cautiously).  If interrupted, Chin will not gain a drink counter.4/5

df.B(20.60/40x2)(ex): Kyo-like kick, juggles diagonally upwards.  You can press B again during the first kick to kick again. Landing automatically puts you into the kick stance, you can cancel the landing frames into anything.  Must anticipate early on if you want to use df.B as an anti-air, but do not use if they they are nearly above you.  Cancel the landing frames into another df.B or qcb+A.  Ex version does the second kick automatically and launches the opponent higher.  Another key tool to Chin's offense. 5/5


Stances:
d x2+P: Chin crosses his feet and squats down real low.  Apparently, he has total upper body invincibility, even d.As and jump attack misses him.  New to XIII, he can now throw an opponent by pushing forward C, he does however have a whiff animation.  In trade, he has lost his ability to cancel the stance into a d.B.  You can free cancel his stance into any special.
 ∟ Press P (Ex) The follow up is two a quick hits with both hands and has very high priority. It can be free canceled into any special. Ex version does 3 hits (only the last hit can be cancelled) and the third hit draws the opponent back to him and you can follow that up with a s.C (Perfect for HD activation). The Ex version needs to be done close for the third hit to connect and hence even if you did one d.B before the Ex version the third hit will miss. The only thing that will combo into the Ex version and have all three connect is df.D, QP, Ex QP.

d x2+K: Chin hops into one foot.  Pressing forward and backward makes him hop rapidly in that direction.  You can hop or jump out of it (the jump is new to XIII) and like most KOF stances, you cannot block.  Can be free canceled into any special.  Has multiple follow ups.
 ∟A - Standing A
 ∟B - df.B
 ∟C - Quickie Punch
 ∟D - Far D
 ∟Down - Goes into his A Stance
 ∟BD - Cancels stance.


Super moves (DMs):
qcf x2+P(30x8/20x16)(Ex): Chin flies forward with a spinning headbut a la Jackie Chan.   Normally does 8 hits if they all connect and the Ex version does 16 hits.  The Ex versions combos off a d.B, d.A, and off a df.B but the normal version can only be comboed off a df.BD or super canceled off a hcf+K.  Personaly, I stay clear of the normal version and save my stocks for his Ex df.K or Ex counter.

qcb~hcf+P (must have at least 1 drink counter)(220 for A and C does 180): Chin turns around and slams his back into the opponent a la Xiang Fei.  A version is quicker and combos off of df.Bs.  C version is slower but has wire damage and can be followed up into the A version or into qcb+A juggle combos.  C version also combos off his quickie punch.


Neo Max:
qcf x2+BD(14x27{air 14x24}): Chin breathes fire out like 2k2UM, you can control the direction.  You can also preform this in the air.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Gravelneed on August 14, 2010, 01:53:40 PM
Combos:
Chin has mainly one combo that has many different variations to it.  They all revolve around his df.B and hcf+K.  The key is to learn all of his combo starters and you'll see the pattern soon enough:

Starters:
a) j.C/D / crossup C
b) s.C / far C
c) d.B, d.A/s.A
d) df.D overhead into Quickie Punch loops x1~3 (d x2+P.P)
e) Counters
f) df.B as an anti air
g) hcf+K for mid projectiles
h) Ex hcf+K for ground projectiles.

Middle
a) s.C, (Quickie Punch x1~2), df.B, qcb+A, [DC] hcf+K...
b) df.B, qcb+A, [DC] hcf+K...
c) df.B, qcb+A, [DC] hcf+K...
d) df.B, qcb+A, [DC] hcf+K...
e) (If B or Ex version then) hcf+B, df.B, qcb+A, [DC] hcf+K...
f) version go for df.B immediately
g) df.B, qcb+A, [DC] hcf+K...
h) hcf+B, df+B, qcb+A, [DC] hcf+K...

If you are midscreen (otherwise skip to corner), make sure you do the D version hcf+K then...
1.) df.BD, hcf+B

OR

2.) qcb A,. [DC] hcf+D --> 1.)

If you choose to use the B version, then just do df.B, qcb+A.

Corner/Finisher
After 1.) df.Bx4 (after the first df.B, just press neutral B), s.A/qcb+A/qcb~hcf+A (must drink first)/ Ex qcf x2+P DM

Note: Doing most of the combos mentioned, will yield you 80% of his stock guage!  

---
If you're near the corner you can do a special variation:

-s.C, df.B, qcb A, [DC], hcf B, (earliest cancel as possible) df.BD, (hcf+B, df.B) x2, df.B, qcb A/DM

-(drink) df.D, Quickie Punch x1~3, qcb~hcf+C, (wire) qcb~hcf+A

-df+D, dx2+P.P, qcb~hcf+C, qcb+A, [DC] hcf+B, Ex df+BD, hcf+B, df+B, qcb~hcf+A 64% damage (3 stocks, 1 drive, 1 drink)

HD:
-Chin's overhead does not cancel into BC for some annoying reason, so you're stuck with s.C, HD, s.C... -->

-Although I haven't tried, I suppose you can do d.B, d.A/d.B,  d.BC (does s.C)... -->

-A little more challenging is s.C, Kick Stance.Far D, HD, s.C... -->
The trick is to hold down, neutral C, down D (goes into Kick Stance), Neutral D.  If done correctly he's s.C then far D for a 2 hit combo.

-You can also tack on the Far D after the Quickie Punches: df.D, Quickie Punches x1~3, Far D, HD, s.C... -->

-(EDIT):  You can do s.C, qcb+BC and it'll do his qcb C+HD.  I suppose, but not confirmed, you can do qcb+BC off the Quickie Punches as well.

-Last one I know of, and I can't seem to do it at all is allegedly --> df.BD, dash roll cancel into HD (does s.C), empty cancel the "s.C" into qcb A...(done real fast as the s.C whiffs completely) -->

So here's a HD combo:

-s.C, HD, s.C, qcb A, [HDC] hcf B, qcb A, [HDC] hcf D, (df.B, qcb C, hcf D) x2, df.B x2, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, df.B x2, s.A, qcf x2+AC DM (without the DM is about 600, with the DM is about 800)

-(EDIT): s.C, HD, s.C, qcb A, [HDC] hcf B, qcb A, [HDC] hcf D, (df.B, qcb C, hcf D) x3, df.B x5, qcf x2+AC DM (789dmg, 36hits)

-(EDIT): s.C, HD, s.C, (qcb A, [HDC] hcf D) x2, (df.B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D) x2, df.B, qcf x2+P DM [6hits], [MC] qcf x2+BD, df.B, qcfx2+P DM (929dmg, 5 stocks, if you drink it'll go over 1000).

Strategies&Tips:
First of all, why Chin?  He's the only small character in XIII yet he doesn't have the typical advantages of being small which is annoying (In XII, he was small enough to duck certain moves without doing anything, such as Robert's forward A which now hits a standing Chin in XIII).  The purpose, is to annoy the hell out of people with the limited, but well thought-out moveset he has.  Although he mainly has one combo with many variations to it, he has many combo starters as mentioned in the combo section (Overhead, d.B combos, hcf+K, df.B as an anti air, counter etc...)

Let's start with far range.  There's not much you can do here except prepare to hcf+K any whiffed moves.  The D version goes about 60% of the screen IIRC, and of course if they have mid fireballs which roughly 1/3 of the cast do, remind them not to mess around with you.  If they have a ground fireball like Terry and Kyo, only his Ex version will be suffice (note, Ryo, Robert and Takuma's HSKK projectile is still consider a mid fireball despite the size).  In the meantime, while near full screen away, steal drinks when you can.  After one or two drinks usually, the opponent will approach you to prevent you from drinking.  

Another useful tool from fireball happy opponents is to use his qcb+B counter to prevent any block damage (Chin triggers his counter but neither party takes damage and the projectile passes through him).  Eventually opponents wise up and will try to punish you if you go for the counter.  Against characters like Robert or Andy, use his punch stance (d x2+P) to crouch under the projectile, if they use any attack afterwards like Zaneiken or Robert's Flying Kick HSPK, cancel his stance into his qcb+B counter--punish him at will.  

Often times you can bait them to throw a mid fireball without them really thinking.  e.g.  Try hcf+D (blocked), qcb+B (blocked).  Chin will proceed to walk backwards.  You'll be surprised how many people try to punish you which is when you remind them about your hcf+K.

Mid range
Now we enter more of Chin's comfort zone.  df.B covers good horizontal distance and as long as you're not dead close--it's not punishable.  Of course if used preemptively, it's a good anti-air and another good anti-air is his vertical j.CD.  Play around with his Far C into df+B and you'd be surprised how effective it is against hops.  Against jump-ins use his qcb+B counter.  On the offense use Far C into df.D, good reach and deceptive.  Sometimes, it's even good to use hcf+K to escape underneath your opponent as they jump towards you.   Be prepared to publish with hcf+K or the Ex version.

Close range  Chin's sweet spot.  Here's when the mix up games begin.  Crossup C and jump B mixups, d.Bs with overheads loops mixups can seriously drive your opponent mad.  When they are tired of your barrage of attacks, let loose a well timed Ex counter and let them think again about attacking.  Don't forget Chin's d x2+P now has a foward+C followup which is a normal C throw.

So you start with a Crossup C, they block it, you can either go for a d.B into overhead, or s.C into overhead, both are relatively safe but they can still throw you if they're paying attention.  If your d.B connects you can go for s.A into df.B or just go for another overhead.  If they block your d.B, d.A/s.A, df.B you should be at the right distance where you get frame advantage and after you land your df.B (putting you back into kick stance), do his A follow up which is a standing A.  

If they start blocking high too much, sweep them with a down D and start the crossup/overhead/d.B/counter mix ups again.  Don't forget, holding df.D or pressing D again does Chin's overhead fake so you can do d.B combos or just throw them.

Sometimes when they wake up it's good to go for his punch stance and either Quickie Punch them/ throw them/ or cancel into his counter.  Don't forget both of his stances cancel into any special.

Let's say they block your overhead, tack on at least one set of Quickie Punches (coming from an overhead, you just tap C but mash d x2 and P after the first set if you wish to continue).  If they block your quickie punch you can go for another overhead (!) or cancel into his kick stance (d x2+K) and jump over them and start attacking once more.

Coming from a Chin user, Chin is real annoying to fight against once you really understand how many different options you have at your disposal.  After some reflection, what's annoying about Chin isn't necessary his damage (which I'd put average damage at best) but simply coz of the sheer amount of time he keeps you juggled is where most opponents get frustrated (it's ok, I get a dose of my own medicine playing against Lizzies) and lose their composure.  You factor in his different options to administer this torture, and you're grinning from ear to ear.

A more advance block string is j.C, s.C, kick stance, cancel into crossup C.   To perform the s.C --> kick stance simply hold down in the air (when pressing j.C), neutral standing C, down+D immediately.  You can even press D again in the kick stance to perform a far D for a 3 hit combo.  To add to the challenge, activate HD on his far D and use the autodash feature (after pressing BC on any normal or command attack your character will run forward briefly.  When you press s.C or s.D it'll cancel his dash so you can carry on your HD combo) and start your favorite HD combo with s.C.

I've spent most of the time talking about block strings and mind-game mix ups since you can read the combo section about what to do if it connects.  Basically...

-As long as I have one drink, I'll try to finish the df.B combos with his qcb~hcf+A.  

-If I have only one power stock, I'll save it for his Ex df.K combos, or his Ex counter (his qcfx2+P DM is pretty much not worth using, and will not connect after his df.B anymore (unlike XII).  

-Make sure you have 1 cancel gauge otherwise it severely limits his options (s.C, df.B, qcb+A, [DC], hcf+K...)

-If you really lack a cancel gauge, go for Quickie Punch into qcb~hcf+C (wires opponent), then perform the light version qcb~hcf+A (but remember to do it the opposite direction due to the wire).  If you don't have another stock do qcb+A then steal a drink after.

-Anytime you connect with qcb~hcf+A, drink away safely (even in the corner).  

-Don't under estimate 5 drinks = 150% damage.  A normal 40-60% combo is now 60-80% (best illustrated here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mplBTuiJOc8#t=0m22s))

-Under too much pressure and have 3 stocks?  Ex counter, hcf+B, df.B, Ex qcf x2+AC.

-Personally, I don't use NeoMax too much but that can change in the future.

-If I have more than 3 stocks I'll either save it for combos or if I'm playing someone I better finish off (Mr. Kof), extend your df.BD, hcf B loops.  e.g. df.B, qcb A, [DC], hcf+B, (df.BD, hcf+K)x 1~3, df.B x2, Ex qcf x2+AC.

-Full cancel gauge and he opportunity arises, go for his HD which is good considering he does 60%+ damage with no stock.

Finally, I would be doing Chin a disservice if I didn't illustrate a competent Chin user with this video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpY6Z3ls6Do#t=01m38s).

Took me long enough, but I finished my first draft for a mini-FAQ for Chin.
===



Can you describe what all the moves do? It's been a long time since I played XII.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on August 16, 2010, 01:07:03 AM
Can you describe what all the moves do? It's been a long time since I played XII.

I thought it was clear that I was on it, lol, but ok I'm on it.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: MUSOLINI on August 16, 2010, 03:06:30 AM
nice.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Mazinkaiser on August 16, 2010, 12:47:56 PM
Impressive, thank a lot :D i'm looking for chin (i use him already in 98) in XIII. Could you add a last info? if a move (normal/special/super) are safe or free to punish, from what your experience learn of course.

i don't unsertand a thing, the taunt, act like the drink special, or do exactly the same thing too (charge a drink counter) slower ?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on August 16, 2010, 04:32:28 PM
Impressive, thank a lot :D i'm looking for chin (i use him already in 98) in XIII. Could you add a last info? if a move (normal/special/super) are safe or free to punish, from what your experience learn of course.

i don't unsertand a thing, the taunt, act like the drink special, or do exactly the same thing too (charge a drink counter) slower ?

I'm still not done with the write-up, but none of his specials or supers are completely safe, even a well spaced hcf+K (blocked), qcb+ A (blocked) can be punished by characters with a long sweep (Robert).  EDIT: I suppose the Quickie Punches are completely safe, but you can free cancel out of it so that kinda doesn't count. The taunt basically makes him do his drink five times in a row...only you can't stop him once he starts drinking, and he actually gets drunk in the end (new animation) lol.

EDIT2: Done now. =)

EDIT3: Added: You can do s.C, qcb+BC and it'll do his qcb C+HD.  I suppose, but not confirmed, you can do qcb+BC off the Quickie Punches as well.  UPDATE: It will not bypass from the quickie punches.

-Added HD: s.C, HD, s.C, (qcb A, [HDC] hcf D) x2, (df.B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D) x2, df.B, qcf x2+P DM [6hits], [MC] qcf x2+BD, df.B, qcfx2+P DM (929dmg, 5 stocks, if you drink it'll go over 1000).

UPDATE2: I did a slight variation of Chin's first HD combo: s.C, HD, s.C, qcb A, [HDC] hcf B, qcb A, [HDC] hcf D, (df.B, qcb C, hcf D) x3, df.B x5, qcf x2+AC DM (789dmg, 36hits)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: PureYeti on September 01, 2010, 11:46:53 PM
All right thanks to Kane317 for introducing me here, how do you the high and low combo loop from KOF XII?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on September 02, 2010, 06:49:26 AM
All right thanks to Kane317 for introducing me here, how do you the high and low combo loop from KOF XII?

Welcome PureYeti (I've always loved your avatar), don't forget to introduce yourself here (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?board=9.0).  

Chin's high-low games are very similar to his XII version.  Overhead (df.D), starts off the mixup games.  You can also Overhead feint by holding the D down, or tapping it again, in which you want to start with low combos (d.B or d.D) or even a throw.  If the overhead connects press C to go into Quickie Punches, and repeat up to twice manually (d x2+P.P).  Even if the Quickie Punches are blocked you can cancel them into the overhead again, or his qcb+K counters.   Canceling his Quickie Punches into his kick stance allows you to jump cancel that (!) for crossup mix up.  Finally, d.B is actually cancelable and of course you can start his overhead mixups.
---

New HD combo from the BBS, needs to be confirmed:

JD>近C>B構えD>発動>近C>C鉄山>振り向きA跳撃>>D回転>A跳撃>>D回転>二起脚◊2(>A跳撃>>ディレイD回転)◊3>二起脚◊n>A跳撃orA鉄山orEX飛天砲

j.D, s.C, B stance.D (far D), HD, s.C, qcb~hcf+C, (wires so do it opposite direction) qcb A, [HDC?] hcf D, qcf A, [HDC] hcf D, df.B x2, (qcb A, [HDC] delay hcf D) x3, df.B x n, qcb A/qcb~hcf+A/qcf x2+AC

I'm assuming the ">>" means HDC whereas ">" is a regular link/cancel.  There's also notes about juggle height and variations depending on location of screen where you hit the qcb~hcf+C but I couldn't translate it.  They mention that if it's Ex qcf x2+AC at the end, it's a 100% combo (finally, short of drinking more than 2 times, he lacked high damaging combos).

---
UPDATE: I modified the above combo and made my own variation (positioning is extremely crucial as the wire damage juggles the opponent to different places depending on your own position.  Starting position works perfect--even an extra jump hit will nudge them out of range):

(Drink) s.C, qcb~hcf+BC (HD bypass), [wires] juggle low as possible (qcb A, [HDC] hcf D) x2, (df.B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D) x3, {df.BD, hcf B,} df B x3~4, Ex qcf x2+AC (3-4 stock, ~990dmg/~1020dmg if you do the {optional} df.BD, hcf+B ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbUpPhTiIXQ)

-Don't forget to drink beforehand.
-If you cancel qcb~hcf+BC off the s.C too slowly it will not combo.
-Remember to juggle the first qcb+A after the wire, real low.  Ideally you hit them on the side instead of juggling from underneath.
-The qcb C, [HDC] hcf D cancels slightly slower than the normal qcb A, [HDC] hcf D cancel.


---
UPDATE 2:  Thanks to the good ole Japanese BBS (http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/50324/1270390677/l50 (http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/50324/1270390677/l50)) a new set of Chin "starters" that setups Chin for some good juggles.

Starter a) s.C, HD, s.C, hcf BD, qcb AC, (hcf B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, df.B) x4, hcf B ~
1 - df.B ◊2, qcb A [815]
2 - df.B, qcf x2 A [904]
3 - df.B ◊3, qcf x2+AC [967]
4 - df.BD, hcf B, df.B ◊4, qcf x2+AC [1001]

Starter b) df.D, d x2+P.P, hcf BD, qcb AC, (hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B) ◊2, hcf B ~
1 - [626]
2 - [717]
3 - [807]
4 - [818]

Starter c)
qcb BD, hcf BD, qcb AC, (hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B) ◊2, hcf B ~
1, [723]
2, [812]
3, [875]

Here's a quick video of hcf BD, qcb AC, (hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B) ◊2, hcf B, df.BD, hcf B, df.B ◊4, qcf x2+AC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-lg5g9bUhQ)

---

UPDATE 3: Seemingly, Chin's strongest HD combo variation yet: (Full credit goes to No.17's friend Kantoku, translations done by No.17)

s.C, HD, s.C, (qcb+A, [DC] hcf+D)x2, df.B, qcb+C [DC] hcf+D, qcb+A, hcf+D,
df.B, hcf+B, qcb+C, [DC] hcf+D, df.B, hcf+B, (df.B.B, s.C) / (df.B qcfx2+P DM) / (df.B.B, qcfx2+P DM)

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: 4leaf on October 07, 2010, 06:34:33 PM
Nice combo, CHINa-man!
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on October 07, 2010, 08:36:37 PM
Nice combo, CHINa-man!

...
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: MUSOLINI on October 07, 2010, 10:44:14 PM
really nice vids on chin. although i wish we would get to see more vids done with just ex moves or ex moves and drive cancels instead of hd mode.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on October 10, 2010, 05:13:23 AM
really nice vids on chin. although i wish we would get to see more vids done with just ex moves or ex moves and drive cancels instead of hd mode.

That's a strange request since, up till now, all my Chin videos online didn't have any HD combos incorporated.  90% of my matches are only Ex combos etc.

With that being said, I modified my last combo so that's it's a 3 stock (+1 drink) hyperdrive 100% combo, off the top of my head it I can't think of anyone else that can do a 3 stock HD 100% except maybe Takuma this side of Raiden.

REDONE: (turns out my last 3stock HD 100% used an drive cancel at the end.  The extra s.C was the difference maker making my last HDC a DC instead lol)
-(drink) j.D, s.C, qcb~hcf+BC, [wires] juggle low as possible (qcb A, [HDC] hcf D) x2, (df.B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D) x3, df B x4, Ex qcf x2+AC (3 stocks, 1006dmg) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPrA1SboKgk)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Rex Dart on October 10, 2010, 03:13:14 PM
Too damn cool. Thanks for the video.

I look forward to seeing you pull that off during an actual match against a real K'.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: krazykone123 on October 10, 2010, 03:22:14 PM
This thread makes me want to play Chin

I look forward to seeing you pull that off during an actual match against a real K'.

Gonna need that match-up experience yo
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on October 11, 2010, 01:03:56 PM
Too damn cool. Thanks for the video.

I look forward to seeing you pull that off during an actual match against a real K'.

All I play are top tier (near-top tier chars).  In reality, Chin never saves up two drive/full cancel meters in a match.  One drive cancel can extend your combo so much (especially if you have meter for Ex df.BD juggles) that it messes with your game if you're trying to conserve for a HD.  I'm slowly trying to change my style so I can build up for it but it's re-conditioning my Chin so I'm finding it challenging.  Don't forget his combos have so many starters (Ex counter, overhead, d.B, crossups, juggles etc... all begging me to drive cancel).

Gonna need that match-up experience yo

Kula and Andy is more of challenge for me.  K' is still a pain, but every now and then I can slip under him with my rotation punches (hcf+K) as he's still tempted to do Eins Trigger (qcf+P), just remember to hcf+K after the qcf+P is out and not as it's coming out otherwise it hits low!

---

Forgot to post up some damage on some combos:
-s.C, HD, s.C, qcb A, [HDC] hcf B, qcb A, [HDC] hcf D, (df.B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D) x3, df.B x4, qcf x2+AC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJZ-1UF_qWg) (~785dmg)
 ∟ Not too shabby for 2 stocks + HD and more practical than starting it with a drink DM.  If you replace the s.C, HD, s.C starter with d.B, d.A, HD it'll do 727dmg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOTHkYCJBFA).

minor UPDATE5 (Finally a fullscreen variations, thanks to l2slythe for the idea and I made a slight variation):
-s.C, BC, s.C, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, qcb A, [HDC] hcf B, df.B, hcf B, (qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B) x2, df.B x2 ~B, qcf x2+AC (805dmg for 35 hits).

UPDATE4: Odd combo from JBBS but forgot to post it: 3D>双手>C鉄山靠>A跳撃>(DC)D回転的>EX二起脚>D回転的>3B>A鉄山靠 ※ダメ658(飲酒1)
Midscreen: (drink) df.D, QP, qcb~hcf+C, (wires) qcb+A, [DC] hcf D, df.BD, hcf D, df.B, qcb~hcf+A (658)

UPDATE2:
-df.D, d x2+P.P, hcf+BD, qcb+AC, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.BD, hcf B, df.B x4, s.A (597dmg, 18 hits, 3 stock 1 drive)
 ∟ Special notes about this combo :1) The more Quickie Punches you do (1, 2 or 3 sets) the less damage it deals due to damage scaling.  1 set of QP does 18 hits 597dmg;  2 sets of QP does 20 hits 575dmg; 3 sets of QP does 22 hits 550dmg.   Hence, do 1 set to prevent damage scaling especially if you wanna add a Ex Dm (The Japanese BBS alway said that about the Quickie Punches in general, to only do 1 set, and now I know why).  
2) You would think that by doing more Quickie Punches, you at least build more meter; not the case, I don't know why but it's exactly the same whether you do 1 set of QP or 3 sets which leads me to...
3) This combo charges exactly 1 full bar so although you're using 3 stocks and 1 drive, it's really just 2 stocks plus 1 drive (real cool).
4) If you omit the Ex qcb+AC it'll be 17hits for 529dmg.

UPDATE1:
-s.C, HD, s.C, Ex hcf K, Ex qcb P, hcf B, (qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B,) x4  df.B.B, s.C (, hcf~b+P/rdp+P-drink optional) 825dmg
 ∟ So far, Chin's strongest 2 stock + HD combo.  A little trickier than the combo listed above it's worth the extra damage.

-df.D, QP, Ex hcf K, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.B x3, Ex qcf x2+AC DM (28 hits, 3 stocks 1 drive, 615dmg)
 ∟ Slightly more damage than the combo listed under UPDATE2, both are 3 stocks 1 drive.  The key to discern which to use is how many stocks you are begin with.  If you have 3 stocks 1 drive to begin with, go for this one.  If you only have 2 stocks 1 drive then do the 597 one and you should be able to build a full stock to add the df.BD in the end.

---

UPDATE3:
Did more "countering" situations damage testings.

a) Ex qcb K, hcf B, df.B, qcb A, [DC] hcf D, df.BD, hcf B, df.B x4, s.A (16 hits, 2 stocks 1 drive, 525dmg)
  ∟ You can start off with 1 DM and you should build 1 more stock by the time you finish your combo

b) qcb B, Ex hcf K, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.BD, hcf B, df.B x4, s.A (15 hits, 2 stocks 1 drive, 533dmg)
  ∟ Slightly better anti air option however sometimes if the counter triggers too early the opponent won't stay grounded

c) Ex qcb K, Ex hcf K, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.B x3, s.A (14 hits, 2 stocks 1 drive, 570dmg)
  ∟ Again, more damage than the first 2 combos, but it depends on how much you start with.  If you only have 1 stock 1 drive to begin with then combo b) is safer bet

d) Ex qcb K, Ex hcf K, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.BD, hcf B, df.B x4, s.A (18 hits, 3 stocks 1 drive, 628dmg)
  ∟ Use this one if you started off with 2 stocks 1 drive and you're confident that you'll build 1 more in time

e) qcb B, Ex hcf K, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.B x3, Ex qcf x2+AC DM (26 hits, 3 stocks 1 drive, 600dmg)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: krazykone123 on December 31, 2010, 07:16:48 AM
So Kane you played the game for awhile, who gives you the most trouble when you're playing as Chin?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on April 07, 2011, 11:56:23 PM
So Kane you played the game for awhile, who gives you the most trouble when you're playing as Chin?

Who doesn't?  Lol.  Fast characters like K' and Iori give Chin a hard time since he relies on a lot of Far C's into df.B for anti airs which accidentally becomes s.C a lot (no anti air hit box).  Also, due to their sheer speed, if I mis-guess a counter they can dash in a combo.  

Characters with long down pokes as the non-Ex rotation punches (hcf+K) is vulnerable to low hits; like Ash, Kensou, Kula, Leona (she can Moon Slash the hell out of my floaty jumps as well), Benimaru etc...

1-framers, as they can punish me after a blocked overhead before my Quickie Punches come out (like command throws etc...)

I'm sure I'll think of more overtime, but otherwise he can hold his own.

EDIT: Ground projectilers like Kyo, Terry and Joe are also a little bit trickier as he needs to utilize his Ex hcf+K (invincible during mid roll) to rotate thru the projectiles.

---

From the BBS, a "real" 100% combo (doesn't require drinking):
ジャンプD>C>張果老>構え中D>HD発動>C>弱月牙跳撃>強回転的空突拳>(強月牙跳撃>強回転的空突拳>二起脚・一段目)◊3
>弱月牙跳撃>酔操・轟欄炎炮(レバー上)>EX騰空飛天砲ダメージ1009

j.D, s.C, dx2 +D.D (does Far D), HD, s.C, qcb A, [HDC] hcf D, (qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, df.B)x3, qcb A, [HDC] Neo Max qcf x2+BD (hold up), Ex qcf x2 +P DM (1009 dmg)

For the last qcb A: if you're finding it difficult to [HDC] into his NM of the qcb A, just use add the second B on the last df.B (df.B.B), it does the same damage as qcb P and it's easier to cancel if you ask me.

UPDATE3: d.B, d.A, BC, s.C, Ex hcf K, Ex qcb P, hcf B, (qcb+C, [HDC] hcf D, df.B, hcf.B) x4, df.B x2, Ex DM 40hits for 892dmg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOTHkYCJBFA#t=0m16).
---
UPDATE adding some non-Drive combos:

No stock:

-s.A, d.B, QP, df.B, qcb A (170dmg)

1 stock:

-s.A, d.B, QP, Ex hcf K, hcf B, df.B.B (310dmg) and in the corner you can add a s.C at the end for 352dmg.

2 stocks:

-s.A, d.B, QP, Ex hcf K, Ex qcb P, hcf B, df.B.B (393dmg)

-s.A, d.B, QPx3, df.B, Ex qcf x2+AC DM  (408dmg)

3 stocks:

-s.A, d.B, QP, Ex hcf K, hcf B, df.B, Ex DM (511dmg depending on # of hits on Ex DM)

-UPDATE2: With a j.D, s.C, Ex hcf K starter it's 529dmg for 19 hits (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOTHkYCJBFA#t=0m33)

-Just for kicks, here's the same combo after drinking five times (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOTHkYCJBFA#t=0m43).
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: SAB-CA on July 05, 2011, 10:17:01 PM
Well, this video posted by Toxic Avenger on Orochi Nagi contains something for chin I haven't seen mentioned:

http://youtu.be/BULALroMWLw

He attempts it earlier, but at 1:29, he manages to land 3 sets of "Wak wak" quicking punches, and then link that into Far D, and go into HD mode to continue comboing.

So YAY, Chin can HD off overhead -> quickie punches! I don't believe I've seen that mentioned anywhere else. Was this known?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on July 06, 2011, 03:53:10 AM
Well, this video posted by Toxic Avenger on Orochi Nagi contains something for chin I haven't seen mentioned:

http://youtu.be/BULALroMWLw

He attempts it earlier, but at 1:29, he manages to land 3 sets of "Wak wak" quicking punches, and then link that into Far D, and go into HD mode to continue comboing.

So YAY, Chin can HD off overhead -> quickie punches! I don't believe I've seen that mentioned anywhere else. Was this known?

I was so excited to see a post in the Chin section haha.  

See post above, it's been mentioned that the link is particularly tricky.  During the d x2+Punches you have to do d x2+D and not do it too quick or too slow (have to be inputted on the first hit of the 1-2 quickie punches) and then continue from there.  

It has not been captured on video though AFAIK.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: SAB-CA on July 06, 2011, 10:04:05 AM
Doh, I skimmed all that was here on the second page, but I guess the info was on the first page most likely?

Well, good that it hadn't been captured on video before now, nice to have a visual reference for it, especially for those whom have no legit ways to play the game before console release!

Great, another mark of "Skill" to add to Chin use!
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: AzureTAG on July 23, 2011, 03:16:09 AM
100% (No drunk) Chin combo KOF XIII - Chin Gentsai (No Drunk) Combo 100% (1013 damage) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYiwCw_-gXA#ws)   "Neo Max not that effective at all " You can combo into and from it like Yuri's neomax, if that not effective then...
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on August 09, 2011, 10:32:37 PM
Rare occurrence of a good Chin player winning some matches:

1. No.1 a-cho KOF合同大会 第3回カッザガーデン「KOF13」終了後 野試合 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB_epQNy9Lg#ws) - No.1 a-cho KOF合同大会 第3回カッザガーデン「KOF13」終了後 野試合 <--Starting from the 15min mark.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: sibarraz on August 10, 2011, 02:10:28 AM
Rare occurrence of a good Chin player winning some matches:

1. No.1 a-cho KOF合同大会 第3回カッザガーデン「KOF13」終了後 野試合 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB_epQNy9Lg#ws) - No.1 a-cho KOF合同大会 第3回カッザガーデン「KOF13」終了後 野試合 <--Starting from the 15min mark.

I watched some of your matches and I'm not that impressed to see chin winning

I was more shocked with that godlike maxima, still, chin seems so fun to use, I like his mix up game and how he lands his combos

Still, I want to ask you kane, I had never understood that combo of chin using all his hd meter, you cancel some moves who will later produces juggles so you keep continuing hitting your opponent? is hard to do?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: SAB-CA on August 10, 2011, 02:30:44 AM
I watched some of your matches and I'm not that impressed to see chin winning

Haha, he's spoiled it for all of us! :)

Really Kane, this past weekends Southtown stream still remembered your Chin preformance from 3 weeks ago now! "Hey, someone play Chin!" was heard quite a few times over those hours...

Sibarraz, for me, in my limited time with Chin at Otakon, the hardest part I had to get used to was when to use what. Each roll has different ranges, and you have to be paying enough attention to not do too many df ;b, and to notice if your spacing was different enough to warrant using qcf b rather than d.

Having mained Chin in XII myself, I found doing basic cancel combos with him much easier than most other characters. His commands were more direct, his free cancels gave me more time to think so that I could use my Drive Cancels, and the damage buff from drinks made everything I did successfully land that much stronger.

A guy afterwards screamed out "CHIN IS CHEAP!"... at which point my little brother, who is normally very quiet about these things, turned around instantly and answered "CHIN IS CHEAP!" He's been way too burned by my 98UM matches VS him, so he didn't even have to think about it...

The only thing I wish I had back, since it was SO nice, is Chin's 2 hit air ;c . He, Geese, and Heavy D! were the few who had something like that, so I'm kinda sad to see such a unique thing gone. Well, I wouldn't mind him being able to plug himself with fire for an EX DM or such now either, since I'll always remember him being able to do THAT since 94 and 95... was one of my favorite things to save up meter for!
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Reiki.Kito on August 10, 2011, 03:14:51 AM
I actually am considering Chin as an anchor or #2 man for an extra team. I want to expand my horizons. Is there anything I should try to get down first before getting into him? For example, any basic tactics or combos I should hit in training mode or a mindset I should practice with him?

Any little bit helps!
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on August 11, 2011, 05:35:33 AM
Still, I want to ask you kane, I had never understood that combo of chin using all his hd meter, you cancel some moves who will later produces juggles so you keep continuing hitting your opponent? is hard to do?

Like most characters, once you get the hang of it, it's not too hard to do.  There are however certain things to keep in mind which explains why I use certain setups over others and why in general you'll see more [DC] combos (even 2 in one combo) over a longer [HD] combo.  

* In order to activate and HD combo with Chin you have to use his normals; neither one of his command attacks (df.B or df.D) will activate it.  
* His jumps are super floaty, have a low jump arch, and his normals lack range; hence are predictable so it's not very practical as one would like.
* The only other setups to activate HD combos are thru his stance follow-ups which aren't the easiest to do: Quickie Punch (d x2+P.P) --> Kick stance (d x2+K) --> s.A (press A)
* and Ex QP.  The Ex QP allows a s.C to follow up which can allow you to goto into [HD].
* However, from the wiki: The Ex version needs to be done close for the third hit to connect and hence even if one d.B is added before the Ex QP, the third hit will miss and hence no follow up. The only thing that will combo into the Ex version and have all three connect is df.D, QP, Ex QP, s.C, [HD]
 
Hence you'll see me use this setup often and note the strengths of the buttons do matter: {Mid screen} (s.C/ Quickie Punch,) Ex hcf+K, hcf+B, (qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B) x2, df.B.B, Ex DM.  

Since I'm not in [HD], Chin builds up meter so you can easily have 2 meters for your Ex DM towards the end.

Sibarraz, for me, in my limited time with Chin at Otakon, the hardest part I had to get used to was when to use what. Each roll has different ranges, and you have to be paying enough attention to not do too many df ;b, and to notice if your spacing was different enough to warrant using qcf b rather than d.

Having mained Chin in XII myself, I found doing basic cancel combos with him much easier than most other characters. His commands were more direct, his free cancels gave me more time to think so that I could use my Drive Cancels, and the damage buff from drinks made everything I did successfully land that much stronger.

A guy afterwards screamed out "CHIN IS CHEAP!"... at which point my little brother, who is normally very quiet about these things, turned around instantly and answered "CHIN IS CHEAP!" He's been way too burned by my 98UM matches VS him, so he didn't even have to think about it...

The only thing I wish I had back, since it was SO nice, is Chin's 2 hit air ;c . He, Geese, and Heavy D! were the few who had something like that, so I'm kinda sad to see such a unique thing gone. Well, I wouldn't mind him being able to plug himself with fire for an EX DM or such now either, since I'll always remember him being able to do THAT since 94 and 95... was one of my favorite things to save up meter for!

Lol.  I also wish he had his double hitter back as well.

When you start diving into the longer combos his timing gets a little trickier due to juggle height and distance.  For example, if you combo into his Ex df.BD too closely, his follow hcf K will still connect but anything after that will not. Basically, if the hcf+K doesn't juggle them at the tip of his front fist, the df.B will not cancel into anything.  Often times you'll see Reynald and I do --> hcf+K, df.B and we won't do any finisher and it'll look like we dropped a combo but it's not the case.  Trying to wait a little is also incredibly hard to time due to his travel distance and height as mentioned before; and I can do the normal "delay" juggle combos for most characters.  

Also knowing the strengths of the buttons and which one can be followed up in mid screen and which one can only be done in the corner is a pain (e.g hcf+D, df+B should only be done in the corner unless you're using the Ex version; however hcf+D does more damage and setups longer juggles etc...)

Objectively speaking, he looks easy to play until you venture into his intermediate stuff which is the only explanation why so many ppl dropped him including overseas players as well.

I actually am considering Chin as an anchor or #2 man for an extra team. I want to expand my horizons. Is there anything I should try to get down first before getting into him? For example, any basic tactics or combos I should hit in training mode or a mindset I should practice with him?

Any little bit helps!

Well my tips are very generic as I've spelled out everything else in Chin's Wiki entry (http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Chin_Gentsai_(XIII)), but first of all get familiarize with all of his normals and specials.  Sounds easy enough but you really have to spend time.  The strengths in the buttons do make a difference although hard to spot when watching.  Qcb A and C have different startups and juggles, hcf+B and D have different damages and vary in travel distance.  Counters B and counters D have different follow ups (and B having two depending on air attacks or ground ones).  Finally execution his his QP are crucial, once you get the timing of it it's easy but a challenge at first (especially to cancel out of).

Then read the last 2 pages+ wiki like 2-3 times then you can just ask me as many questions as possible afterwards lol.  

Seriously good luck.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: SAB-CA on August 11, 2011, 08:58:05 AM
Nice details there; easily more than I would have picked up on in 2 days, haha. I also have to mention that his EX counter seemed to have a much smaller counter window than I expected; especially since Betty's normal counters seem to stay out for days. I guess it was kinda more like Blue Mary (Activate right before hit) than I'd expected (I remember kinda letting people just... drop into my counters on XII.)

I have to say, I'd love to get someone as oddball as Chin for DLC (I still want Tung Fu Rue!), but I wonder if anyone they'd add could be as refreshing as he. They did such a fantastic job rebuilding him, compared to his old self...

So tricky, but so satisfying!
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on August 27, 2011, 03:54:12 AM
100% (No drunk) Chin combo KOF XIII - Chin Gentsai (No Drunk) Combo 100% (1013 damage) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYiwCw_-gXA#ws)   "Neo Max not that effective at all " You can combo into and from it like Yuri's neomax, if that not effective then...

I dunno how I missed that comment.  It sounds good on paper until you review the damage.  The air version NM does a measly 336dmg (14x24, the lowest in the game by a margin), the Ex DM on the other hand does 320dmg.  Now if that's not convincing enough you can factor in how much juggling he can do before doing the NM, something you cannot do if you end the combo with a NM early.

Let's examine this combo:
1. d.B, d.A, BC, s.C, Ex hcf K, Ex qcb P, hcf B, (qcb+C, [HDC] hcf D, df.B, hcf.B) x4, df.B x2, Ex DM 40hits for 892dmg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOTHkYCJBFA#t=0m16)

If you were do a NM finisher, you would have to replace the last { qcb+C, [HDC] hcf D } for a { qcb+C, [MC] NM}.  

Let's see how much damaging you're missing:
...hcf+D, df.B, hcf.B, df.B x2 --> Ex DM

That's 90+20+70+20+20= 220 but you the Ex DM does 16 less damage so you still do an extra 204 dmg by skipping the NM.  I know there's damaging scaling for every added hit but is negligible when you're talking about an extra 204.  If you want to make it more damaging just add Ex moves in the beginning instead of doing NM.

Q.E.D.

---
EDIT for KCE goodness: KOF XIII KCE公開動画 その320 Conclusion2011 vol.1(Kim&Psycho) (http://youtu.be/D4WqaSQy8eo?t=6m30s) (6m30s)
New Chin variation:
UPDATE: Correct strengths added
qcb+B, hcf+B, (df.BD, hcf+B, df.B, df.B.B, qcb+A, [DC] hcf+B, df.B,
hcf+B)x2, (df.BD, hcf+B)x2, df.B x2, df.B.B, s.C (Stun),
rdp P x3, df.D, QP x3, Ex hcf K, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B,
Ex df.K, hcf B,
df.B, (delay) df.B~B, qcb~hcf+A DM

EDIT2 for new, seemingly strongest HD combo variation yet: (Full credit goes to No.17's friend Kantoku, translations done by No.17)

s.C, HD, s.C, (qcb+A, [DC] hcf+D)x2, df.B, qcb+C [DC] hcf+D, qcb+A, hcf+D,
df.B, hcf+B, qcb+C, [DC] hcf+D, df.B, hcf+B, (df.B.B, s.C) / (df.B qcfx2+P DM) / (df.B.B, qcfx2+P DM)

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Reiki.Kito on September 23, 2011, 08:31:29 AM
Are there any holes or breaks in some of his combos where he can be interrupted or punished? One of my friends has picked him up and I can't seem to find ways to get in on him. Especially that quick overhead, can he keep attacking after that's blocked, is it safe?

Just any general knowledge on what approach I should take would be nice.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: SAB-CA on September 23, 2011, 09:47:13 AM
A general cut-and-paste of a Reply I gave to a person claiming Chin was OP, after watching Kane decimate with him on last week's stream:

Quote
He's also throwable + punchable out of his overhead, and his drinks drop his defense too, making each of his risk magnified. His roll approach is very obvious after a while (and can be eaten by crouching weak attacks), and his hops aren't the best. He use to have a 2 hit hopping C to help him get back to the ground after a hop attack, but that's also gone now...

Plus crappy normals reach, and he doesn't benefit off HD as easily, since he doesn't have easy ways to land normals. (Drive Cancels kinda balance this, of course.)

Lets add on the fact that ground-crawling fireballs also totally ruin his roll punch to that list :(

Chin gets much less threatening after people get used to him. This is why Kane has a problem placing among his peers, of whenever he's fighting people who know him; Chin lacks in the things that make a character really OP, he just works great with meter (which almost everyone does anyway...). Basically, he's a very strong mid-level character, that loses more steam as the players get more knowledgeable.

Oh, and lastly, Chin's not doing anything greater in XIII than he has in the past anywho, lol. It's never made him OP in the past, it's not going to now...

^ This wass all in response to a "I'm Glad that Kane lost!" post, lol. Let me know if you disagree with any of it as well, Kane.

Some places were'd he'd have holes:

- after the quickie punches -> followup (depending on followup)
- after roll -> Move followup
- after a wiffed counter

I'd say the best way to pierce a Chin's defense, is to know what he likes to Over-depend on, and then figure out ways to stifle that approach. If he like to roll -> Suiho, bait and punish. If he likes to hop and jump alot, learn his jump arch, and keep him grounded. If he relies on counters, learn to bait them, and punish with big combos afterwards.

If Chin starts to control the flow of the match, it's kinda over. But he responds poorly to pressure, so if you can get and keep it, his threat is seriously diminished :(
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on September 23, 2011, 09:57:15 AM
SAB-CA, who posted that?  That guy got it mostly right.

The challenge with Chin is there's no real "correct" way to play him (well there isn't with anyone but you get my point); he's more a stone-paper-scissors kinda guy, much like grapplers if you will.  The challenge I always have is trying to remember which strategy I need to use (stone-paper or scissors) on the opponent and can I switch it up fast enough.

Having said that, playing the people I play the most is a pain since they've seen most of attack patterns so I really have to switch it up.  Case and point:  I beat metaphysics in the Evo arcade tourney and he ends up beating me in the tie-breaker for the console tourney the very next day.

Some places were'd he'd have holes:

- after the quickie punches


Well technically it's before the quickie punches after the overhead.  The QP itself can be free-cancelled into any special so it in itself is not unsafe.  Like Kula's follow ups to her Lay Spin (qcb+K) you can hit him before it comes out, heck you can roll it without using a stock for GCCD.  You can refer to this post here (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=1107.msg21835#msg21835) where I go over a lot of Chin's weaknesses.

Reiki, who picked up Chin?

SAB-CA, can I get the link to the post in question, I wanna read all the Chin317 hate ;)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: SAB-CA on September 23, 2011, 10:43:12 AM
LoL, I put that in a confusing way. I should have said "A cut and paste of my reply, to a person who claimed Chin was OP". LoL, so they're my words. This is what I get for posting when sleepy, lol.

The post is down on this page of Gaf's KoF Thread, at post #2192: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=439047&page=44 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=439047&page=44)

Cadet Mahooney said something about it the day before, during the ranbats (in a seperate thread then, too), and I was surprised he took the "Glad Kane lost, die Chin!" attitude on for more than that, right back into the official thread, lol.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Reiki.Kito on September 23, 2011, 10:06:36 PM
Reiki, who picked up Chin?

Fixel -_- I had no idea what he was doing until he did it and then I was completely caught off-guard. He does that; he's REALLY good at technical knowledge and abusing the crap out of it.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on September 23, 2011, 10:55:52 PM
Reiki, who picked up Chin?

Fixel -_- I had no idea what he was doing until he did it and then I was completely caught off-guard. He does that; he's REALLY good at technical knowledge and abusing the crap out of it.

Just as I suspected.  Yeah he does have quite of bit of technical knowledge so we'll see how it goes.  Keep me updated with his progress.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: bigvador on October 04, 2011, 03:34:58 AM
kane i do have to ask do you think because chin is short he has a advantage as well as a disadvantage as in terms of him being short cause when i play against him i be missin alot of hits because hes short (or maybe my timing is off)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on October 04, 2011, 12:22:00 PM
kane i do have to ask do you think because chin is short he has a advantage as well as a disadvantage as in terms of him being short cause when i play against him i be missin alot of hits because hes short (or maybe my timing is off)

It doesn't seem to be as much advantageous as it was in XII.  His hitboxes have been adjusted (e.g. Robert's f+A would miss Chin in XII but not in XIII).  So technically you'd have to ask all the ppl that play me as I don't play that many Chins, but I feel IMO, that he has all the disadvantageous but not that many advantages for being short.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: bigvador on October 05, 2011, 04:18:17 AM
kane i do have to ask do you think because chin is short he has a advantage as well as a disadvantage as in terms of him being short cause when i play against him i be missin alot of hits because hes short (or maybe my timing is off)

It doesn't seem to be as much advantageous as it was in XII.  His hitboxes have been adjusted (e.g. Robert's f+A would miss Chin in XII but not in XIII).  So technically you'd have to ask all the ppl that play me as I don't play that many Chins, but I feel IMO, that he has all the disadvantageous but not that many advantages for being short.

yea but the disadvantages he has...... dont he make up for it in his hitboxs and distance (ex hop kick roll punch ect) he do have alot of good normals. not trying to throw any of your secrets out btw  :)
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on November 01, 2011, 06:24:00 AM
First page has been updated with console changes.

---

- (shown in video) Chin can do a close C from his d,d+K stance
- (shown in video) The weak version of his counter now has the attack come out faster than before and can connect into his rolling attack (HCF+K). As a result of this the counterattack almost never whiffs anymore, and there are very few situations in which he canít follow up.
- (shown in video) He has less lag after his normal throw (both when in his stances as well as normally) and he can actually do followups in the corner.
- Chinís defense no longer decreases when he has drink stocks
- The active time of his counters has been decreased. The normal version now has the active duration of the arcadeís EX version, and the EX versionís is shorter still.
- His EX counter does less damage, reduced from 237 to 199.

Yamamoto Ė We added some interesting buffs to gameplay using d,d+K. Although parry time on hk+LK {Ex qcb+BD} has been reduced, the overall frames are shorter making it difficult to get punished. Drinking is easier to use compared to the arcade now that there is no defense penalty. Please have fun with the now trickier Chin
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Diavle on November 26, 2011, 05:37:05 PM
Practiced him last night and took him online today morning, old am definitely gold.

I'm a huge Drunken Master fan (have probably re-watched the movies a billion times) but I always felt Chin wasn't a good enough representation of the style, until this re-imagining that is. The moves and animation are so spot on, you can see they payed close attention to the movies with the way he moves and poses.

With that out of the way, his gameplay is very unique and fresh I feel. The commands and styles are very cool, and the juggle potential is of course crazy. Though I am more interested in learning everything outside of the combos.

Been experimenting during matches with the ducking move into throw and so far so good. I was able to duck and go straight into throw through jump ins consistently. One Terry player ran up for a sC on wakeup and I was able to duck and throw that clean as well.

You can see players who have played KOF before because they immediately started mashing cB against Chin... ugh. Gonna try and incorporate the D counter special to break this habit of theirs. Planning to use counters quite a bit overall.

His combos are so satisfying to do. What is his best meter-less punish mid screen? In the corner?

Any general survival tips would be very appreciated.

Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on November 28, 2011, 01:36:14 AM
I'm a huge Drunken Master fan (have probably re-watched the movies a billion times) but I always felt Chin wasn't a good enough representation of the style, until this re-imagining that is. The moves and animation are so spot on, you can see they payed close attention to the movies with the way he moves and poses.

With that out of the way, his gameplay is very unique and fresh I feel. The commands and styles are very cool, and the juggle potential is of course crazy. Though I am more interested in learning everything outside of the combos.

Coming from HK and growing up on Jackie Chan, I agree, they nailed the drunken style down to the T.

Been experimenting during matches with the ducking move into throw and so far so good. I was able to duck and go straight into throw through jump ins consistently. One Terry player ran up for a sC on wakeup and I was able to duck and throw that clean as well.

That move is so dirty, he can duck most d.As!  Couple that with his ability to combo after his throw in the corner it's so...urm...dirty!

You can see players who have played KOF before because they immediately started mashing cB against Chin... ugh.

That's when you do his Ex hcf K or his overhead =)

Gonna try and incorporate the D counter special to break this habit of theirs. Planning to use counters quite a bit overall.

His D counter is his old B counter now, both counters have such small windows (the duration of his Ex counter in the arcade, and his Ex counter now is even shorter almost completely useless, almost).  Problem with his D counter is that it's used to counter low hitting normals and since he walks backwards it's hard to counter successfully.  His B counter is so hard to time the hcf+B follow up, you're better off to cancel into df.B (whiff), df.B.

His combos are so satisfying to do. What is his best meter-less punish mid screen? In the corner?

Any general survival tips would be very appreciated.

Hmm where do I begin (see pages from before).  If you mean meterless as stocks and drive, then it would be:
-s.C, df.B, qcb+A, drink (optional)
-s.C, df.B, s.C for slightly more damage and reset
-d.B, Quickie Punch, kick stance~C (s.C), df.B, qcb+A/s.C  <--harder

Regarding survival tips, what are your main challenges right now?
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Diavle on November 28, 2011, 04:01:07 PM
Going through your wiki entry for the character and wow, good job.

That move is so dirty, he can duck most d.As!  Couple that with his ability to combo after his throw in the corner it's so...urm...dirty!

I didn't realize you could combo of the throw until I saw you on stream on Saturday, mind was blown.

Quote
That's when you do his Ex hcf K or his overhead =)

The EX hcf+K has invincibility? How much?

I tried the overhead but it gets beat by sweeps (1 guy was doing c.Bs and then sweep when I would overhead, another would dp). Will hope for less smart opponents.

Quote
His D counter is his old B counter now, both counters have such small windows (the duration of his Ex counter in the arcade, and his Ex counter now is even shorter almost completely useless, almost).  Problem with his D counter is that it's used to counter low hitting normals and since he walks backwards it's hard to counter successfully.  His B counter is so hard to time the hcf+B follow up, you're better off to cancel into df.B (whiff), df.B.

Didn't realize you could cancel his B counter attack on hit, nice. B counter has actually been really good to me, as both an anti-air and countering special moves mid screen. The window to counter doesn't seem much different from Rock Howard's, unlike Rock though he moves back so harder to punish (Rock just stands there on whiff).

Quote
Hmm where do I begin (see pages from before).  If you mean meterless as stocks and drive, then it would be:
-s.C, df.B, qcb+A, drink (optional)
-s.C, df.B, s.C for slightly more damage and reset
-d.B, Quickie Punch, kick stance~C (s.C), df.B, qcb+A/s.C  <--harder

Regarding survival tips, what are your main challenges right now?


Thanks for those, was using more basic ones.

My main challenge is applying pressure and high low games. What are good/safe block strings for him? One I've been using is cB, sA, sA into qcb+A. High is fine because of the overhead but I don't feel dangerous going low, which is why I found the above chain, haven't put it to use online yet though.

EDIT: Okay, the wiki answered all of my questions for survival pretty much, thanks man.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on November 28, 2011, 10:25:42 PM
The EX hcf+K has invincibility? How much?

Full invincibility during the roll, however, no start up invincibility whatsoever.

I tried the overhead but it gets beat by sweeps (1 guy was doing c.Bs and then sweep when I would overhead, another would dp). Will hope for less smart opponents.

You're not spacing your overhead correctly, it'll be the majority of sweeps unless it's Andy's or something bulky like that.  It will be d.Bs for sure.

Didn't realize you could cancel his B counter attack on hit, nice. B counter has actually been really good to me, as both an anti-air and countering special moves mid screen. The window to counter doesn't seem much different from Rock Howard's, unlike Rock though he moves back so harder to punish (Rock just stands there on whiff).

In the console it's very situational how the B counter reacts, safest bet is to (corner) df.B~B, qcb+A --> continue.  If you try to add the hcf B after the B counter, you have to delay (quite a bit) and that also depends on the height and when you countered the attack.  Sadly, sometimes a delay hcf B is the only option.

---

On a side note, I found out something new with him.  In the arcade, if you land his rolling hit (hcf K) directly underneath the opponent, you wouldn't be able to special cancel into say his df.B (which a lot of time to the untrained eye, looks like you dropped a combo).  Try doing hcf D, df.BD, hcf B into df.B--the df.B won't come out.

In the console, they seem to have "fixed" this problem, but you have to cancel the special in the opposite direction as you're considered crossed up .  Now try doing hcf D, df.BD, hcf B into db.B I haven't found any practical uses yet but we're see.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Diavle on November 29, 2011, 05:11:17 AM
Full invincibility during the roll, however, no start up invincibility whatsoever.

You're not spacing your overhead correctly, it'll be the majority of sweeps unless it's Andy's or something bulky like that.  It will be d.Bs for sure.

In the console it's very situational how the B counter reacts, safest bet is to (corner) df.B~B, qcb+A --> continue.  If you try to add the hcf B after the B counter, you have to delay (quite a bit) and that also depends on the height and when you countered the attack.  Sadly, sometimes a delay hcf B is the only option.

Came home after reading your tips and wiki and immediately did better online.

That HCF+BD invincibility came in real useful. I also used QCB+AC as a get off me move and that worked rather nicely as well (has invincibility as well according to that SNK tech vid).

Yeah that guy was using Terry and his sweep is angled upwards as well so it got me a lot. you are right though I often do the overhead maybe a little to close to the opponent, will try to space better.

Did some ducking on ppl's wakeup and that was fun. Ducked under Maxima's Vapor Cannon and into the throw. Also ducked under Terry's cr. A. I'm really enjoying this ducking mechanic overall.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on November 29, 2011, 01:43:46 PM
That HCF+BD invincibility came in real useful.

It also starts the strong variation (mid screen) hcf BD, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df B, hcf B, df.B xn~B, s.C/Ex DM

I also used QCB+AC as a get off me move and that worked rather nicely as well (has invincibility as well according to that SNK tech vid).

I use qcb AC, [DC] hcf B, df B~B as my go-to escape maneuver.

Did some ducking on ppl's wakeup and that was fun. Ducked under Maxima's Vapor Cannon and into the throw. Also ducked under Terry's cr. A. I'm really enjoying this ducking mechanic overall.

Too bad they took it out of XIII, in XII, while you're ducking you can cancel immediately to d.Bs lol.
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Diavle on November 29, 2011, 03:38:59 PM
^Awesome, thanks.

Yeah that c.B during ducking would have been pretty dang sweet :/
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on December 02, 2011, 03:05:38 AM
New combos from SNKP Blog update (http://youtu.be/DfUFEh2jMKI?t=53s).
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: sibarraz on December 02, 2011, 06:21:05 AM
I'm loving chin but I had one big grip

I found really hard to get drunk

And not in a sense of ''I can't find the moment to use that tech'' but more in a sense that the RDP never came out, is almost always his qcb + p
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: SAB-CA on December 02, 2011, 06:42:28 AM
New combos from SNKP Blog update (http://youtu.be/DfUFEh2jMKI?t=53s).
The 4 hit normals before "Sake Jug" backhand is my new favorite thing, lol. Though I personally do it off all crouching normals, as the damage is the same, and it avoids going into ducking stance. I always loved the forward movement of his crouch B, now it finally has a use!

I'm loving chin but I had one big grip

I found really hard to get drunk

And not in a sense of ''I can't find the moment to use that tech'' but more in a sense that the RDP never came out, is almost always his qcb + p

Stick the diagonal for a bit of time, before pressing the button. This keeps your last input from being a "back", and guarentees it's a "down-back". I find it a bit stuffy, but not as strict as drinking in 2K2UM...
Title: Re: Chin Gentsai
Post by: Kane317 on December 02, 2011, 01:50:50 PM
I'm loving chin but I had one big grip

I found really hard to get drunk

And not in a sense of ''I can't find the moment to use that tech'' but more in a sense that the RDP never came out, is almost always his qcb + p

Better yet, just do what I do: hcf~b+P instead.

---

Regarding the Chin video, the best full screen HD combo is still from the pages before (http://dreamcancel.com/forum/index.php?topic=43.msg25643#msg25643):
-j.C, s.C (, d x2+K~D), BC, s.C, (qcb A, [HDC] hcf D) x2, df.B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, qcb A, [HDC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.B~B, s.C does more. {No stock HD}

or

-j.C, s.C (, d x2+K~D), BC, s.C, (qcb A, [HDC] hcf D) x2, df.B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, qcb A, [HDC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.BD, hcf D, df.B~B s.C does more. {1 stock HD}


or

-j.C, s.C (, d x2+K~D), BC, s.C, (qcb A, [HDC] hcf D) x2, df.B, qcb C, [HDC] hcf D, qcb A, [HDC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, qcb C, [HDC] qcf x2+P NM (hold up), df.B~B, s.C {2 stock HD}