Dream Cancel Forum

Other Fighting Games => SNK Games => Topic started by: solidshark on March 15, 2011, 04:24:27 AM

Title: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: solidshark on March 15, 2011, 04:24:27 AM
For those who've played both Last Blade 2 and Garou, I'm curious which system you like better between the two. Also interested in what you think about the defensive system being on a directional button versus an action button.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: jinxhand on March 15, 2011, 05:43:15 AM
I actually like both, as Deflecting allows for combos and such, especially in the air... However, Just Defending allows for a counter attack if timed right, and possibly a combo (I'm not sure what the frame window for that is in particular)... Not only that, but a smidgen of life can be restored from a successful Just Defend... This made it better than 3S parrying (the only good thing about 3S parrying are red parries I think)...

Even though JD is used in CvS2, I wished they somehow incorporated Deflecting in one of the grooves...

Quick question about Deflecting though... Was there a way to perform an evasive maneuver upon a successful deflection???
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: sibarraz on March 16, 2011, 03:08:41 AM
just defended was well executed on garou, but somehow, i don't like it in CVS2 and Neowave

never a fan of deflection
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: solidshark on March 16, 2011, 05:33:08 AM
Quick question about Deflecting though... Was there a way to perform an evasive maneuver upon a successful deflection???

Technically, yes. Kojiroh had a dash move where she could run behind you to throw you, but if you didn't enter the second command, she'd just end up on the other side. Then there was Moriya's teleportation. Outside of command moves though, good question.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: Aenthin on March 23, 2011, 06:32:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2a2iuPyqww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7KcLiJk1t4

Huzzah!

The only thing I like with Deflection is that it made beating Kouryu extremely easier.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: marchefelix on March 28, 2011, 06:13:55 PM
JD because it heals you  :)
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: jinxhand on March 28, 2011, 09:35:01 PM
Quick question about Deflecting though... Was there a way to perform an evasive maneuver upon a successful deflection???

Technically, yes. Kojiroh had a dash move where she could run behind you to throw you, but if you didn't enter the second command, she'd just end up on the other side. Then there was Moriya's teleportation. Outside of command moves though, good question.

During our most recent LB2 session, with P-Juzoh I managed to deflect one of your jump attacks, and I hit back and did what looked like a backwards tech roll... I still need to test some things out, but I believe evasive options are available for all characters... I still need to see if I can evade forwards, and whether or not my character passes the opponent or just advances forward...
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: Nocturnal on April 05, 2011, 10:45:35 AM
Both are different and depending on the game has their options. Deflecting is probably way more risky compared to Just Defending if you think about it. Deflecting has an actual recovery animation if it didn't land. Just Defending you can option select while deflecting you have to react using it. Both systems are nice in their respective games though. Also CvS2 and Neowave JD is a lot more stricter compared to MOTW. It's similar to how CvS2 P - groove parry is stricter compared to 3S parry.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: jinxhand on May 05, 2011, 07:00:59 PM
Yeah deflection is definitely a high risk/high reward mechanic...
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on April 25, 2012, 11:01:52 PM
Know it's old but curious. Anybody that uses deflection is it just me or does it seem to work better in a 3d game like Soul Calibur? It's like I had a security blanket in 8 way run (though I'm sure a bad one) rather then throwing it out in Last Blade and once you whiff you are hung out to dry for the most part. I've tried to master the parry in Samurai Shodown V but never feel comfortable enough to use it. Complex motion + move that has a bad recovery time = me screwing up almost every time.

Just defend just seems to have no real downside. You either block at the last second and get the Just Defend or just plain block. The up side isn't as good if you connect, but I'd rather be cautious more times then not.

Sorry for raising the dead but this thread had me wondering.
Title: Re: Repel vs Just Defend
Post by: solidshark on April 26, 2012, 02:02:44 AM
Thanks for resurrecting an almost year-old thread. Also reminds me that the correct term was actually Repel afterall. Using both repel and guard impact, guard impact seems better because using it has to be precise, but the animation doesn't last nearly as long as repel. However, per LB2's general speed of the game, it's not a terrible thing, but even more than any other parrying mechanic, you have to make sure you really know what's coming.

I think the last time you and me played Bakaboy, you punished me a lot when I tried to repel your attacks. I think some sort of feint mechanic for a LB3 would make things even more interesting in regards to repel, though it shouldn't be just a button press like repel.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: jinxhand on April 26, 2012, 05:18:57 AM
Yeah the reward was small with Just Defend, you'd only get a sliver of life back, and I think you'd recover a few frames early, but possibly not enough to attack (or at least do what you wanted to do)... 

If you're talking deflecting in 2d vs 3d, you're right to some extent... It's easier in 3d fighters I believe because of the frames in general... Most 2d fighters have moves with faster frames, whereas in some 3d fighters, the frames are generally slower per sť. By far, Tekken had the fastest moves for a 3d fighter, with VF behind it; I think they're about the same now, since both games have gone through dramatic changes...

Deflecting/Repelling in LB was harder because the window was smaller than a 3d parry/deflect/repel... It looked slow because of the animation in general, but the whole animation wasn't the actual deflect itself, more like the small window to parry and then the recovery portion, which was shortened if you guessed right... I hope that made some sense...
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on April 26, 2012, 09:33:16 AM
Yeah, I thought of 3d advantages being of elimination on moves first (i.e. if you are at the side of an opponent you can sit there and look for a horizontal slash. Plus the timing is even slower since you are not facing directly in front giving you even more time to see the move coming.) I didn't see the fact the 3d is slower in general and that's a major advantage in the 1st place.

One last thing before I give up is for deflection/parry/repel is the risk worth the reward using it in Last Blade? My ex-roommate could use it on me here and there. That's the reason why I got used to masking my timing on when to attack, but does the deflection give you ample time to inflict big enough damage to warrant using it?

Like I said earlier I've been working on Samurai Shodown V's parry cause it can disarm the opponent. For that risk that's a huge reward. Especially if an opponent is not letting you get inside (close or medium range) like Charlotte and you have a more close in opponent like Ukyo. For that matter it's REALLY helpful when you are disarmed cause you can disarm your opponent. IMO for that game IF you can master the movement and really get good at the timing it CAN be better then Just Defend.

The one thing I will say that is good about Just Defend though is you can prolong your death. With using the TOP Bar at the end of your life and making all your blocks Just Defend, it can pull you from the brink of death to the point of having enough life to take a hit or 2 in no time at all. I remember when I played MOTW regularly that the matches seemed to last forever when you got 2 players who knew the other person's attacks pretty well.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: solidshark on April 26, 2012, 10:53:16 AM
One last thing before I give up is for deflection/parry/repel is the risk worth the reward using it in Last Blade? My ex-roommate could use it on me here and there. That's the reason why I got used to masking my timing on when to attack, but does the deflection give you ample time to inflict big enough damage to warrant using it?

It's worth the reward. One of our old matches sticks out to me where a successful repel turned into a super to turn the tide of the match.

And I've seen some tournament footage from years ago where I think a speed player repeled and followed up with some tricky movements his opponents couldn't read.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on April 26, 2012, 09:14:18 PM
One of these days we'll have to play again. Last Blade 2 this time I hope. I was so off balance on LB1 that I can barely recall anything about the matches. Might fire up LB2 on the MVS soon.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: solidshark on April 27, 2012, 03:30:56 AM
One of these days we'll have to play again. Last Blade 2 this time I hope. I was so off balance on LB1 that I can barely recall anything about the matches. Might fire up LB2 on the MVS soon.

I look forward to matching against you again. Circumstances now might make it a while before we can, but can't wait either way. I forget if it was you or Jinx who used Okina, but I know how dangerous he'd be again.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: LouisCipher on April 28, 2012, 02:39:17 PM
Just Defend has almost no risk. It's like a dumbed down parry without nearly as much risk which makes it more friendly to casuals.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: Mr Bakaboy on April 29, 2012, 11:44:59 PM
True, but it serves a purpose in making fights more cerebral. You can't mail home a win in MOTW with tactics like throwing fireballs when opponents have no health, or using predictable moves just to get guard damage. It makes you think about what to throw out there. No health lead ever feels safe with 2 good players. T.O.P. Gauge + JD = Lots of Comebacks.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: jinxhand on April 30, 2012, 09:17:06 PM
If you're fighting a good Gato who knows how to qcb+B~A+B and JD, expect a ridiculously tough match, whether you're at a health lead or not...

One of these days we'll have to play again. Last Blade 2 this time I hope. I was so off balance on LB1 that I can barely recall anything about the matches. Might fire up LB2 on the MVS soon.

I look forward to matching against you again. Circumstances now might make it a while before we can, but can't wait either way. I forget if it was you or Jinx who used Okina, but I know how dangerous he'd be again.

Both Yeti and myself used Okina, but his was more deadly imo, especially considering he knew the best options at all ranges, and had deflect combos... That mixup was ridiculous also...
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: Running Wild on May 01, 2012, 02:08:34 AM
Just Defend has almost no risk. It's like a dumbed down parry without nearly as much risk which makes it more friendly to casuals.

The difficult part with Just Defend is utilizing the Guard Cancels. If you GC too early or GC into a move with too much start-up or no Invulnerability frames, you'll get snuffed or trade. Ideally you'll want to GC into a Super.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: jinxhand on May 01, 2012, 05:50:16 PM
Just Defend has almost no risk. It's like a dumbed down parry without nearly as much risk which makes it more friendly to casuals.

The difficult part with Just Defend is utilizing the Guard Cancels. If you GC too early or GC into a move with too much start-up or no Invulnerability frames, you'll get snuffed or trade. Ideally you'll want to GC into a Super.

Even still, it's still generally better than Deflecting/Repelling... I mean with Repelling, there's the possibility to do more damage, but it's still riskier than JD...

I thought each character had a specific move that they would do when Guard Cancelling, kinda like JJBA... Is there some type of Renda trick, or can you just do any input after Guard Canceling???
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: Running Wild on May 01, 2012, 08:18:10 PM
MOTW has a a pretty long buffer window, it's made even easier if you JD multi-hit attacks.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: jinxhand on May 02, 2012, 09:40:09 PM
I don't remember, but do the majority of supers have some sort of invincibility window, or is it like XIII where some do and some don't???

I'm lookin' to get back into this and Vsav alot more...
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: Running Wild on May 02, 2012, 10:06:34 PM
Some do and some don't, it also differs depending whether it's level 1 or level 2.
Title: Re: Deflection vs Just Defend
Post by: keobas on May 09, 2012, 11:46:48 AM
AS Nocturnal said, both mechanics works well int heir respective game. Its pretty difficult to compare them as both game have different in nature. One has influences on the user(Just defend) and the other has influences on the opponent. ( Repel). Main distsinction between the two is one is in controlled environment and other is not.

Just defend is versatile while granting these things, nullifying any damage, life/power gain, and less gaurd stun, also allowing Air block and guard cancel. But even with all these benefits, Just defend is just an enhance blocking method that can be exploited by the opponent if respond accordingly.
 
While Repel/deflect rewards are guarantee a momentum switch on the opponent that can't be alter in any way if done successfully. Theirs even guard cancel that I think guarantees an vulnerable opponent as well and some invincibility. Though a none successful  repel can be risky and costly, not to mention repel is limited to physical base attacks.

In the end JD has less risk and versatile in usage, but it'l only mitigate the defensive situations of the user at with limits base on the user resources. While Repel has clear distinction who has the advantage as the user has complete control while the opponent is vulnerable for set period of time.

Personally I'm fan of repel considering these.