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Yea it kind of depends on what they mean by easy. In a lot of ways, KOF13 is harder than any other kof, because you HAVE to learn the hard stuff (hd combos, optimal combos in general) to compete. It has this pseudo anime game feeling to it that it never really had before because of that. So even though you can look at 2k2um or original 02, where the maxmode combos are way more difficult to execute and say that they're harder, you can also play those games based on fundamentals and be much more successful than you would in kof13. There's characters that don't even really use max mode, well all know that. In kof13 as time went on, very few characters without strong or practical hd usage were relevant because of the nature of the game.

So yea, 2k2um max mode is hard, but you can play k' and just run around playing normally and only do short short trigger~spike, overhead~minute spike, and basic launch combos in the corner and win just fine. You can zone and poke with 2k2um King, do basic prox ub/attack option selects and not even do combos and be successful. So is it really harder overall? I'd say it's based more upon the neutral game than landing mixups and combo starters, whether that's easier or harder is not really explaining the entire situation. If I was to teach someone with crappy execution but good decision making and intelligence in fighting games a kof, kof13 would be the most frustrating one for them to learn, because you can't play without the combo grind. They forced it on everyone in a way they never did before. Yet a small child could play 98 ralf, oyashiro, chris, daimon, etc. on a basic level. And then depending on your point of view you could turn right around and say that kof98 is a harder game.

And don't forget, there's neanderthals out there with great execution too, and mvc3 increased their numbers by quite a lot. I've seen them! Those kinds of players would be comparatively stronger in kof13 just because they would instantly be able to convert stuff into damage, since hd combos really are not hard at all for the most part IF you have good execution. They are just made that way. Yet in an older kof (which are way harder right?), they would not even really have an outlet because the games are based almost completely on the neutral game and not on confirming into big combos. So it depends on what you mean by easier and harder.

Having parts of the game being easier (like combos), just brings out other parts of the game (neutral), which in turn changes the nature of the game. When it comes down to it, making the game more basic in terms of combos would both increase the importance of the neutral game, spacing, poking, etc., and decrease the importance of grinding combos off short short~activate or trying to land that one cross up. Harder or easier? Does it matter? The game would be both easier for new players to pick up, especially from sf4 (which is where most of the intelligent ones are anyway), and favor more experienced, intelligent players at the same time. Sounds like a win/win to me.

it doesnt mean anything in terms of how the netcode will work, it just means that one person cannot force the game run at a slower speed for someone else in order to keep the game synchronized

Those kinds of testers just make sure the game works properly, nothing to do with the feature set of the game.

Guys, don't do this to yourselves......The only thing they MIGHT change IMO is the netcode

HA

hahahhahahhahhahaha...

you asked what kims have won majors, get a factual answer, then invalidate it because of the players REASON for using him? lol. madkof uses kim, and wins. verna uses him, and wins. lacid uses him, and wins. reynald uses him, and wins. bala used to use iori, doesnt anymore. tokido used to use iori, doesnt anymore. the character is highly capable of hanging with the other top characters, period.

So now were down to citing specific discrepancies and placing value on completely ridiculous things? Iori down c wont hit any range that kim st.b is effective from, I dont even have to boot up the game to see that. And I dont even know why youre trying to downplay air ex qcb+k. Your example with kyo is makes no sense because kyo, or anyone with an anti-air, when on the ground, is not in a vulnerable position that gives them offense when the opponent is passive. We're talking about a situation (jumping in) which is an action that carries risk normally, then having a move that can circumvent that risk, also (this is the important part) being an option that no other top tier has access to.

Hwajai yes has great short-term lock down mostly because of his jab. Still doesn't have the range of st.b, once he gets to that range he uses st.d, but then using st.d gives the opponent a chance to escape since its - and you won't catch a jump-out without waiting or guessing. He has cd which is + but slow start up. He has the burden of having to use more options than kim to keep you in place. kim can just hit d, if the opponent jumps or does nothing he has the advantage again, which is beat by mids, but this puts you at risk since you don't really want to hit those kinds of buttons in these situations in general. Hwa qcb+d is + but it can be rolled on reaction with no risk. In this area I think hwa is more dangerous but kim has better tools.

Shen I agree with, obviously since I think he is in the same tier as kim.

And lol ralf and leona? Yea they got their stuff, everyone in the game does, but if ralf and leona are better than kim in the ways he is strong, then where are all the ralfs and leonas? If you want to step into reality for a moment, kim is a proven tournament character. Even more proven than claw iori, especially after the first 9 months. Early on no one used kim and claw iori was very common, but as the game evolved, these characters went on opposite paths. Players got better at defense, controlling space defensively, air footsies and keeping iori out, and those skills made a character like kim better and better. Look at the finals for any hilevel tournament, evo, any majors with socal 4 kings or cafeid or top french, and count how many claw ioris you see in the top 8 or top 4 compared to kim. Kim is simply safer and more reliable, more able to control the match in every way.

??? what sense does it make to categorically compare move sets? All that matters is how the character deals with every possible situation how well they do it. A move is unsafe or not that useful? Don't use it. His flash kick is unsafe when blocked? So is every other invincible move. From everything you posted it doesn't seem like you're familiar at all with the character. Air qcb+K is useless outside of combos? Like Desmond said, air qcb+D is overhead and it's + frames when done low to the ground. You can use it for double overheads from a jump-in, from a backdash to hit people flinching, or just tiger knee it. And why does it matter that you can do it accidentally in combo? You could also accidentally unplug your controller when playing, so you'd better watch out for that as well. Air EX qcb+K useless? Again reiterating what Desmond said, and what I said in my previous post, it's one of the best moves in the entire game. It's literally an invincible jump-in. It BEATS Mr. Karate's ex super LOL. Imagine Kim has some bar and comes at you, you can't hit anything on the ground because of st.B, and when he jumps you can't anti-air because of he does qcb+KK you're eating a combo. Iori, and anyone else for that matter cannot oppress the opponent to the same extent that Kim does. Also, qcfx2+K super is an invincible level 1 and gives pretty buff damage for a level 1 since you get a combo after. It's also advantage on block, but you can buffer AB during the flash and punish it.

You're looking at stuff from too much of a training mode/theory perspective and not taking everything into account.

Kim is clearly better than iori is what regard? Claw has just as good of normals if not better, Ex command grab punishes that go over 800-900+ with hd, iori has a move that crushes lows and leads to more damage than Kim's also it doesn't get beat out like Kim's does, iori has better air normal, more ways to open people up, has a better guard crush game than Kim, better footsies.

All Kim really has is easier confirms really.

1. Better normals...you are insane. Kim has his D, an advancing, low crushing, leads to a combo, initiative-giving move. Stand B, the furthest-reaching normal that leads into any of his bnb combos, and stops hop. Kim doesn't have the absolute best normals for everything, but the only notable things Iori has on the ground is close C and jump D, which is not as strong in this game as it used to be, and when compared to other moves of the sort like Kyo close C (Kim close D does the same thing anyway). Iori far D is good, nothing special, a lot of characters have this type of move and many are better. Far B, it's nice but Kim's is obviously better; it reaches higher and leads to a combo. Air normals, not that comparable but honestly I think Kim's are better. Iori has jump D but it can be tripguarded, Kim's C has a similar use, and while it's a bit worse for air-to-air, you can use it in a way to not be tripguarded. He has his own crossup/low hitting jump A, and his CD reaches further.

2. Yes Iori's command grab is good...800-900 costs a shitload of meter though especially if you're starting with EX grab. I don't get the punish part though, since EX grab is 5f and that's slower than most characters close C/D.

3. Iori qcb+P does not allow Iori to keep the initiative after it is blocked, and he is fucked if someone jumps over it and hits him...Kim stand D stops jump-outs and low jumps. Leads to more damage doesn't matter when Iori is forced to use meter to convert off of it. Kim simply gets to start whatever combo he chooses. And qcb+P sole purpose is only crushing lows...Kim's D is used for offense, he can just do it and force the opponent to deal with it, qcb+P is not that kind of move. It may have some faster startup but it doesn't really matter since you can't hit buttons on Kim anyway because of stand B. Iori isn't anywhere close to as oppressive or safe from that range.

4. And better footsies...not even close. Kim stand B is the most powerful move of its kind in the game, period. Iori doesn't even have something comparable. Stand C lol?

Kim other advantages...he has a 3f ex flash kick anti-air, which since it's a charge you can't cross him up, and we all know how good cross-ups are in this game. EX qcb+K, + whatever on block, he can basically just spend that meter to get in, which is very valuable in close matches. And then he has has air EX qcb+K, a tool no one else in the game has. When it's down to the wire and people are looking for anti-air ex supers and such, nothing says fuck you like an invincible jump-in. He has the most dominant ground game, now on top of that you have to respect his jump in? which he can do double overheads from? lol. It's ridiculous.

Also terry does have frame advantage on blocked crack shoots especially meaty crackshoots which a lot of people don't do.lol it's only negative in certain situations also crack shoot as an AA is great because you can follow it up, terry has the ability to put an opponent in the corner no problem, can easily space an opponent out also if need be, great normals, good cross up game with jump c and d, great blow back moving him forward allowing him to Kara cancel moves for punishing or better position or hell just frame advantage, he can delay canceling his st d for even more mind games.

Also far st c... That is all

Crack shoot is only + if you block it crouching, and meaty crack shoot is a risk no one wants to take outside the first round, it's too see-able. It's not bad if the opponent has no meter but there's so many good ex supers or DPs that can be canceled into damage a lot of time it's not a good option. Yeah it can anti-air, but it's slow so you basically have to guess. Yeah his far C is cool, his cross-up is good, but his jump sucks unfortunately.

You think joe doesn't have a good mix up or pressure game? That's crazy... Asl the fact that you think joe can only use his stun combo off or people's mistakes means you don't see much joe in action. Joe can go into stun combo without 1 bar he can do it off his light slash kick doesn't cost drive until he starts the juggle... Also like I said he guard crush game is good because if you do dynamite punch and stop right at the 4the punch you have frame advantage you can frame trap off it, or if you hit someone you can link off of it.
Joe has multiple AAs tiger kick AA leads to a high damage juggle slide can be used to lower joes hitbox and if he hits you he can cancel to dynamite punch orrrrrrrr joe can just slide out the way

Well you didn't list a single mix-up or situation he can stun from anything other than a mistake so yes I think he doesn't have a good mix-up game. Tiger kick is super slow as hell, EX is good but when you've got to spend meter to anti-air...the character better have some major other advantages to make up for it, and Joe doesn't quite have that. In fact, he could have hwajais dp+B and he still wouldn't be top. Low-profile AAs are nice and all, but if the opponent guesses right, you're eating a combo. It's a tool for the character to use, but not a reason to fear them.

terry is solid, he just winds up in that category of characters where logically there's no reason to play him over other characters. if crack shoot was +1 on crouch block, jailed, and didnt get low profiled i think thred be more of a reason to play him.

joe is always going to be at the lower end. he has no mix up other than cr.short/throw and he is slow to guard break the opponent. hes got great pressure but it has to lead to something, especially considering he's lacking when it comes to anti-airs. the stun combo makes him good at punishing big mistakes, but at high level that's a hard thing to force. the character's flaw is really that he doesn't compliment himself...his combo damage makes him dangerous, but he needs meter for it, and from a gameplay perspective he is by far the best on point, since he can control mid-range and put on pressure without a ton of risk.

billy's weakness is pretty simple...he just doesnt get the high damage outside of the corner. you have to spend hd and 2 bars to break 500. he certainly isn't the lowest tier, though. most of the time you have to take more risk to deal with him than he does with you and he's always going to be relevant because of that.

really you can look at any character in this game and come up with reasons as to why they shouldn't be in the lowest tier...but someone has to be there, even if your lowest tier is B or something. so who's it going to be? who do you guys think are the weakest characters?

and kim being better than ioris? that's a perfectly valid argument. i think he's clearly better than claw, ex it's just matter of preference.

as for hwa i agree he does hemma damage. thats how i use him now, mostly don't use drunk mode, just do super high damage for not a lot of meter and the rest of the time do a lot of nothing but sit around and mash d and play the neutral game until i have an advantage. but the way i judge him not being top is looking at how he deals with being in all situations. both him and shen have a lot of the same things going on, but shen has the advantage over hwa when being put into a situation where he needs to make up a lead. 1. his hop is fast and low, with his jump cd covering a lot of space and jump c hitting really low, great for pressure and a lot harder to anti-air with supers and the like when compared to hwa. and 2. he deals with ppl jumping on his head better because of low c and explosion super. hwa doesn't have anything that hits there. hwa has the advantage in the neutral game with d and jabs, slide confirms and whatever, but that stuff isn't as valuable when you don't have the lead.

My main inquiry is regarding Kensou's vs Athena's placement. Athena clearly beats him out in almost every aspect. Her corner throw combos are stronger, her fireball game and anti-fireball game is mad stronger. Athena can beat Kensou out in pokes as well. Maybe I'm not seeing something Kensou has that makes him better, so please shed some light on your placement.

her jump is slower, her dp is a liability because of the speed and forward momentum (easy to get an angle to make it whiff). athena's normals dont allow her to throw something out to beat low jump, kensou at least has d. that said i think she's the most underrated character. she's got an invincible grab and gets like 500+ from it with 1 drive+ 1 super.

i still dont think hwa jai is in the highest tier. his drunk cross up is really cheap but technically you can roll out of it on reaction and hwa cant punish the roll no? his jump is slow. i think the best thing about the character is his neutral game, but i dont like the character as much as a lot of others when he doesnt have the advantage or life lead. my top 6 has been for awhile, karate beni kim kyo ex iori and shen.

Here's a hint to fight vice... *whispers* rush her down...

vice's defense is bad? its her forte. just because you can beat 2 masher options in a specific situation doesnt mean anything. if you just jump and blindly do an air normal you can easily be trip guarded into full combo...or even easier, since its vice, she can just hit you out of the air and full combo...

is there going to be kof at the runback this week?

no

they should just replace hd mode with counter/armor mode that shit was hype. also make another tag game

bring critical counter back