Messages

(I asked this same question in the 98UM thread; we ended up switching the game to KoF XI.)

My community is having a console tournament for XI on the PS2, and they're trying to make the rules legit.

I think most people would agree that the "Arcade" system is the way to go.
Are all console/boss characters allowed?
Any banned characters at all?
Leave the timer on default"?
Judgement turned on?
Should the "Command" button be removed? (it's an auto B&B)
Winner keeps same team/order/leader? Loser can change?
Anything else?


Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

Thanks, buddy.

We're having a console tournament for 98UM in our area on the PS2, and are trying to make the rules legit.


Are EX characters allowed?
No banned characters?
Ultimate system allowed?
Default Play Time set to "Normal"?
Should the "Command" button (L1) be removed? (it's an auto B&B)
Anything else?


Any input would be appreciated. Thanks.

Thanks, Hubbs.

[normal]

Chin's d x2+P~f+C is a command normal throw; it is escapable unfortunately.  For his overhead, you can also tap D twice to feint as well.

Thanks for the correction. I've updated my post.

BTW Winback, can you post your findings in their respective character threads?

Sure!

[Breakdown on Throw Escaping]

[***Feel free to point out any mistakes or typos.***]


Breakdown on Throw Escaping
---throws can be escaped by either holding Forward or Backward and by pressing either HP or HK (just like Capcom vs SNK 2). THERE IS NO MIX-UP WHEN ESCAPING THROWS. If your opponent does a Forward+HP throw then you can escape it by inputting Forward+HP or Forward+HK or Backward+HP or even Backward+HK.
---throw-escaping requires no strict button timing, so you can just mash HP or HK. The window for throw-escaping is also pretty big.
---throws CANNOT be escaped with diagonal notations (ex. Down/Forward or Down/Back), so basically you cannot escape throws when you're blocking low.
---you can escape throws even during recovery frames. So if you block your opponent's Dragon Punch-type move and then attempt to throw them (once they land back on the ground) they can STILL do a throw-escape. You can also throw-escape during the start-up of your attacks.
---the only time you CANNOT escape a throw is when you're doing a Roll (LP+LK).


Breakdown on Counter Hits
---if you're hit by your opponent's attack during any of the moments below then it'll register as a "Counter Hit":
-----during Command Normals, Special Moves, DMs (Supers), SDMs (EX Supers) or NEOMAX moves.
-----during Jumping Normals.
(note: so going by this list, if any of your standard Ground Normals are interrupted by an opponent's attack then it WON'T register as a Counter Hit.)


Inputting DM/SDM/NEOMAX commands
---if the motion is listed as "qcb,hcf" then all you really have to input is "qcb,d,f." You can also do "qcb,qcf."
---if the motion is listed as "qcf,hcb" then all you really have to input is "qcf,d,b." You can also do "qcf,qcb."
---to increase the chance of your DM/SDM/NEOMAX move coming out successfully (especially in combos), hold down (do not lightly tap) the button you're performing the DM/SDM/NEOMAX with. In BlazBlue this is referred to as "Input Buffer." You can also do this with special moves.

^
To put all of this info together for an example, in combos with Kyo I do his Serpent Wave with: qcb,qcf+hold P and now it successfully comes out almost every time I do it (I used to always have trouble getting it to come out back when I would do it as qcb,hcf+tap P).


Blocking & Punishing (regular) Kyo's qcf+HK
---if you block the first kick, you can interrupt the second kick with either an invincible move or you can Roll (but if you roll then you won't recover fast enough to punish Kyo).
---if you block the second kick, Kyo is at -3???, so only moves that are i3 ("impact 3", meaning it comes out in 3-frames) or faster will punish it. Not all characters have attacks that fast and Kyo can still escape any of your throw attempts. If your character doesn't have a move fast enough to punish it, then the best you can do offensively is mix him up by either doing Crouching LK or attempting a Throw (if Kyo is blocking low then he cannot do a throw-escape). However, if he does a move with invincibility (his dp+HP) then he'll beat any of your attacks, so in that case it becomes a guessing game. (note: if Kyo tries to immediately do his EX hcb+KK it will whiff, so that's one less thing to worry about).

Here's a list of moves that are fast enough to punish the second kick of Kyo's qcf+HK on block:
---any 1-frame Command Throw (Ash, Athena, Benimaru, Clark, Daimon, Maxima, Shen Woo, Raiden, Vice and Yuri all have these).
---Andy's NEOMAX. (easy timing)
---Ash's charge d,u+LK. (easy timing)
---Benimaru's EX qcf+KK. (strict timing)
---Iori's Close HP. (strict) (also works with EX Iori)
---EX Iori's SDM. (easy)
---Kim's EX charge d,u+KK. (easy)
---Kyo's Close HP. (strict) (also works with EX Kyo)
---Maxima's SDM. (easy)
---Ryo's Crouching HP. (strict)

^
Those are all that I've found so far, so see if you can find more.


Other Notes I just randomly took (character-specific)
-Kyo:
---his EX hcb+KK is fully invincible and possibly i4. It cannot punish the second kick of Kyo's qcf+HK (which is -3) so it must be i4 or slower.
---in certain situations, to avoid accidentally doing his EX rdp+KK when trying to input EX hcb+KK, you can do "hcb,u/b+KK" to keep this from happening.

-EX Iori:
---his EX hcb,f+PP command throw is not fully invincible. There's a small window (one frame?) just before he grabs the opponent where he can be hit.

-Leona:
---both LP and HP versions of her Moon Slasher (charge d,u+P) seem to come out at the same speed, do the same damage and have upper-body invincibility (around her head) so it's still a great anti-air. It also completely avoids certain high-hitting moves such as Kyo's Standing D. As for differences, the LP version recovers much quicker while the HP version has a bigger hit box. The EX version has an even bigger hit box than the HP version, does a shit load of damage and is fully invincible. It also recovers faster than the HP version but not as fast as the LP version.
---her Crouching HP comes out very fast and has a low hurt box, making it a great anti-air when you don't have Moon Slasher charged.
---her NEOMAX is fully invincible.
---speed on her normals = Crouching HP is faster than Close HK. Close HK is faster than Close HP.

-Joe
---speed on his normals = Close HP and Crouching HP are both the same speed. They're both faster than Standing D.

-Andy:
---speed on his normals = Close HP is faster than Close HK. Close HK is faster than Crouching HP.

-Billy Kane:
---speed on his normals = Crouching HP is faster than Standing HK. Standing HK is faster than Close HP.

-Ralf:
---speed on his normals = Close HP is faster than Close HK. Close HK is the same speed as Crouching HP.

-Clark:
---speed on his normals = Close HP is the same speed as Close HK. They're both faster than Crouching HP.

-Ralf vs Clark:
---Ralf's Far HP, Crouching HP and Jumping Blowback are faster than Clark's, although Clark's Jumping Blowback has slightly more range. Also, Ralf's Far HP has slightly more range than Clark's.
---Ralf and Clark's Close HP and Far HK have the same speed, however Clark's Far HK has slightly more range.
---Ralf and Clark's Crouching HK have the same speed, however Ralf's has noticably more range.
---Clark's Close HK and Standing Blowback are faster than Ralf's, although Ralf's Standing Blowback has more range.
---Ralf's Jump is slightly "floatier" than Clark's.

-Chin:
---his EX qcb+PP and qcb,qcf+P (early start-up only) and SDM and NEOMAX all have invincibility.
-----his d,d+P (Zabantetsu stance) into f+HP is a *EDIT* standard throw (escapable).
-----his d/f+HK is an overhead. You can hold HK to feint.


Combo-Vid References

Nothing too crazy, just stuff that has good ideas in them that can be taken and modified so that they can be used practically.


Billy Kane
KoF XIII: Billy Kane combo video


Ralf
KoF XIII: Ralf Jones combo video


Joe
KOF XIII: Joe combo tutorial - Joe The Muay Thai Champion


Match-Vid References

Tournament vids, but not all what you'd call high-level. Just references to see what the best shit is to spam with each character.


Joe = things to look for: good cr.LK pressure, tornado zoning, use of Jumping Blowback and the usual "Slash Kick into Tiger Knee" shenanigans. Whack corner combos @ 11:54. Clutch air-to-air Counter Hit Blowback into NEOMAX @ 52:51.
Some Clark play @ 33:19.
Shinobi's Tournament - KOFXIII Top 3 & Casuals

Clark = @ 8:34.
Take a wild guess which fighting game character they're talking about @ 4:45!!!!!
KOFXIII Shin Blade(EX Iori/Kyo/Terry) vs. Lil Majin(Athena/Ryo/Clark)


Here are two other sources for recent match videos that I haven't had a chance to go through entirely:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Southtown+Arcade+Ranbats+1%2F8%2F2012&oq=Southtown+Arcade+Ranbats+1%2F8%2F2012&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=251064l251064l0l251689l1l1l0l0l0l0l125l125l0.1l1l0
^
some Joe, Maxima, Leona and Billy in these. Joe player is pretty good and the Leona does a nice HD combo. Billy player was alright.

and

LB KOFXIII #01 - L4 - Christmas VS Sai
^
From a 8WayRun stream that went down not too long ago. Good character variety (ex. Andy, Ralf, Joe, Clark) and known players. Also has the shittiest commentators ever.

Why do you keep jumping into Saiki's fireball super? It doesn't travel full screen, it would have fizzled out before it reached you (you were always at full screen's lenght from it).

That's one of the things I didn't know about Saiki, I thought it was just like Ash's. The first time I tried to quickly jump over it thinking it would go under me but I landed on it because I didn't know it just stops there. 2nd time I waited a little bit later but I still didn't clear over it. 3rd time I just said "fuck it" and I just backdashed and let Saiki come in. Now I know.

Also, why aren't you canceling your parries into specials? What does the other guy have to fear if you don't do anything after it?

You mean after parrying Saiki's fireball, right? You gotta be like 1/3 of the screen away from him to punish his fireball with f,hcf+P which does like 20% damage. I think most of the time I was much further away. Plus if I'm Ryo I'll save my meter for HD combo (3 bars), and if I have a 4th bar that gives me access to qcf+AC or a Guard Blowback in case he corners me.

you should had use better your jumping D, since after you connected one you never did anything after, would have been better even without hit confirm, just doing a cr.c + qcf + a, also you feel quickly on saiki zoning, doing some FB against him is fine since I believe that he doesn't had any normal who could trade against if he is standing, I don't know with qcb + k, but well

Overall, you could try to be more succesfull when you had your opponent in the corner, there is where real could be really scary

I think I hit Hop D too high and that's why Stand D never combo'd. And you're right about Close C, I should use that because it's a lot faster (easier to link) instead of Standing D.

In the corner I need to learn to do more qcf+A into hcb+B. Other than that I usually like to put some space between me and my opponent to avoid any wake-up DP bullshit.

Top 4 from a 13-man tournament we had last weekend. Stream has poor sound but decent image quality.

I used Ryo as my 2nd character. All critique is welcome. I play very basic for easy, guaranteed damage. I pretty much save up all my meter & drive for Ryo, play lame, and then do an easy 80% damage 3-bar HD combo. I was having some trouble dealing with Saiki since I wasn't familiar with his supers or normals. His fireball game is pretty frustrating.

http://www.twitch.tv/f_swipes/b/305506455
@31:00 = Renegade vs Winback (Winners Finals)
@1:09:10 = 1:29:00 Renegade vs Winback (Grand Finals)


I keep thinking about playing Robert over Ryo since he seems to be a better character and easier for me to use. The qualities I would put Ryo over Robert are:
-faster close HP.
-better hop (it's lower to the ground thus making it harder to react to).
-better jumping Blowback (much better angle than Robert's imo).
-better range on his Crouching HK (but it's slower than Robert's).
-Standing HK is a good poke. Easy to use and cancel with.
-Crouching HP is a fast, 2-frame move and a great anti-air (faster than any normal that Robert has).
-Jumping/Hop HK can be a tricky cross-up.
-his overhead (f+LP) is a nice tool to have for mix-up and can cancel into an easy 80% 3-bar HD combo.
-his qcf+P is a good close/mid range pressure tool that you can safely throw out.
-has small invincibility on his dp+LP (if the opponent blocks this but doesn't react fast enough you can throw this out without getting punished).
-using Parry (as well as the occasional qcf+LP) makes Ryo a lot better at playing lame/patient from longer ranges against rushdown as well as against fireball characters.
-Standing HK into d/f+LK cancel gimmicks, although I'm still having trouble fully utilizing this.

That's all I got. Robert excels at a lot of his own things too, possibly more things than Ryo.

Top 4 from a 13-man tournament we had last weekend. Stream has poor sound but decent image quality.

I used regular Kyo on point. All critique is welcome. I play very basic for easy, guaranteed damage with the occasional HD combo (I usually save my Drive meter for Ryo). I was having some trouble dealing with Saiki since I wasn't familiar with his supers or normals. He's pretty frustrating. Take note that my opponent isn't sure how to deal with qcf+HK on block.

http://www.twitch.tv/f_swipes/b/305506455
@31:00 = Renegade vs Winback (Winners Finals)
@1:09:10 = 1:29:00 Renegade vs Winback (Grand Finals)

Found a new option-select for throw breaking:




This game is high execution.

Thanks. I noticed too that most people just stick to doing Drive Cancels after qcb+A (but they do something better than I do, like Crack Shot into EX Rising Tackle, so I'll try that). It makes sense seeing how practical it is.

I'll give that HD combo a try later on and see how it suits me. Does it make any difference if you use Rising Tackle A or C in those juggles?

[what HD combo have you been using in matches that you rarely drop?]

To offline serious/tournament players: what HD combo have you been using in matches that you rarely drop? Even after clearing all 10 Missions and watching videos (most of that is just flashy, showcase shit) I still haven't really gotten a hold of a solid-yet-practical Terry HD combo so I need something to start with. Also take screen-position into account, because I know the corner can affect most of Terry's HD combos.

In the meantime I've just been using HD Mode as a glorified hit-confirm into Neomax, meaning:
[2 bars] cl.C (2 hits)~f+A~[ACTIVATE] cl.D~f+A~Neomax.
[3 bars] cl.C (2 hits)~f+A~[ACTIVATE] cl.D~f+A~Buster Wolf~Neomax.

Both of them suck in the corner because of Terry's Neomax (and EX Power Geyser isn't much better as a replacement) but it's quick, easy damage that at least puts the HD gauge to use. I'd like something better though, so I thought I'd get some ideas from you guys. The only other thing I use the HD gauge for with Terry is Super Canceling into Buster Wolf or EX Power Geyser after doing qcb+A combos, but that's pretty expensive for half of your Drive Gauge.

Appreciate any help.

[I can't stand that guy]

Don't tell me that's the same winback that trolls on the srk forums? I thought he made it clear that he hates kof. I can't stand that guy and it especially pisses me off that he did so well.

Good rundown on the cast:

I translated Dune's impression of all console characters from his elive cast 2 days ago. Thought it would fit in well with the tier list discussion>

Dune provides a caveat stating that these are merely his impressions at current and also
that he may be missing some detail in his analysis.

Ash:
Weak combos, that tend to increase opponent meter.
Good at being annoying.
For being a difficult chr to play not much return.

Billy:
Weak in breaking down guard, has strong zoning and normals instead.
Probably only real Billy users can make him strong.
Fun to use.

Saiki:
In general has no powerful combos outside of the corner.
It's not impossible to carry opponents to the corner but range on this is limited and carrying difficult.
(probably a lot of room for study mid-screen)
Upper-mid tier or Mid-upper tier.

Elizabeth:
Combos have less damage output.
Still good with a lot of meter.
Can still compete as EX counter can be comboed with specials.
People who chose her bc she was strong may move onto other stronger chrs.

Duo-Lon:
Has been affected by system changes.
His crossups are easier to defend taking value away from his rekka setups.*
Requires more precision.
I rate him low.
*(Not that sure I have this translated right)

Shen:
Nerfed slightly, balance-wise seems just right.
Can be put in any order.
I reccomend him.

Kyo:
Currently top tier, but takes skill to play.
Requires close combat for big damage, but this creates opportunity for opponents to punish him.
Can lack some stability due to the above, so requires a lot of practice despite move properties being good.

Benimaru:
Has everything, but has no jump attacks that are effective when used early.
j.CD is angled up and not that useful, if hitbox was downward, would lead to more of an advantage.
Has great tools like s.D, cmd throw, follow up on normal throw - close, but no cigar though.

Goro:
Buffed alot, but, is very matchup based.
Combos using hcf.A hcf.C dp.K are fun and good damage can be done when NM is included.
However, very few tools versus strong zoning.
Weak against air attacking, end up using dp.K to change the tide - comes down to what a player does in these
situations.
Not a bad pick though.

Claw Iori:
No good reversal moves (only EX DP - and better to use this preemptively).
Otherwise, good at breaking down guard and able to destroy once that's done making him easy to use.
Kinda like having a nameless without a good dp and a cmd throw instead.

Mature:
Despite move properties, easy to win with.
Strong Despair (and EX for anti-air), very good, esp in net-play.
Use throw and low start mixups for damage.
A bit lower tier, but can win.

Vice:
Less damage than arcade, but moves are better. Makes for longer matches.
Can pressure opponent with lots of meter, but no longer able to convert to death off of one combo.
Players should make sure to be well-practiced w her.
Still one of the better chrs.

Terry:
Currently I think he's the lowest.
Despite this, his combos are easy, strong rising tackle invincibility is good and crackshoot is good.
We'll see what Terry players are able to do with him going forward.

Andy:
Not hugely different from the arcade, but people used to the arcade may get frustrated when not
everything works the same.
i.e. Slower sweep, no invincibility on EX kuu-hadan.
Hishoken, kuu-hadan, NM are great for netplay, but less effective offline.

Joe:
Combos were great in the arcade - get's a lot of meter and can stun.
On console, getting a stun means the opponent ends up building 3 meters....making things difficult.
Can try to play him differently, but he loses flavor in doing so...

Kim:
A great Kim player, '3-seven' says Kim is very strong on console. I'd like to see him play in order to see.
Can't fight without meter. Without meter, far s.D to keep the opponent grounded while charging meter may
be the only way to go.

Hwa:
Has become very good on console.
Not a main for me, but will use him in sub teams.
Just using far s.D is strong.
Using heel for frame advantage is strong.
Has a 1 frame throw.
Def top tier.

Raiden:
Much weaker, requires skill now.
Still plenty of tools to do well. Raiden players in the arcade should have no trouble.
Can't recommend him to players just getting started on console.

Athena:
Looks like she was buffed, her playstyle is not best suited for this game.
fb~dp play doesn't do much damage.
Low damage output in general - perhaps someone will find something effective with her.
Her jump being low and ground attacks being weak really hurt her.
Looks strong, but think she's lower tier.

Kensou:
A lot of tiny buffs, such as being able to follow up off of normal throw.
However, like Athena is not best suited for the game.
Normals looks strong, but aren't really.
Maybe upper-mid tier.
Looking forward to the uncovering of more potential though.

Chin:
My least favorite to fight against in this team.
More buffs than nerfs, but EX counter has a smaller window making it a bit iffy, but
still has the potential for getting huge damage. If opponents stay away fearing his
combos, he just drinks making matters worse.
Can def win.

Ryo:
Looks very improved, but when it comes down to it, the only mid-range tool he has is
kooh-ken. On a whiff, he can be killed often. Not to say he can't compete, but players may struggle.
Although f.A became faster, it's reach is very limited. What's more is it's easy to drop his HD
combos online. Fun to use but...

Robert:
No incredible combos at the moment.
Mid range he has fb, s.CD, and dp. All interesting elements for him.
Great for people who like footsies characters.
Think he's mid-tier, but may all come down to the use of his NM which is very useful.

Takuma:
All comes down to getting that one opportunity.
Many of his combos can finish the opponent once started.
A double-edged sword though as he gives a lot of meter to the opponent.

Ralf:
Much easier to use.
Lower tier though.
Has few options for breaking down guard.
Fun combos.

Clark:
Not very strong property-wise, but very easy to win with him.
I recommend him to new players.
Difficult to reverse momentum with him though.

Leona:
Playstyle doesn't vary much from the arcade.
Some buffing, but nothing that really affects play.
Good with meter, but not the best with damage output.
Good anchor, but not geared towards reverse ocvs.
(maybe better geared towards 2nd position)

Mai:
Normal and big j.D can be cancelled with d.B makes it much easier to do mid-low mixups.
If jump d.B is guarded, usually at 0 or -1 making it difficult to punish her.
It comes down to footsies and use of jumping for her.
Also a chr with low properties, but easy to win with.

Yuri:
Extremely buffed and close combat much easier.
Has dp+K, a 1 frame throw which can be DC'd or SC'd.
A bit lacking in getting in on the opponent.
Although attack frames of j.CD have been increased, it doesn't have the range to be that effective.
If her jump-ins were better, she would be incredible. I use her as a sub, definitely worth studying further.

King:
In JPN everyone thought her console changes looked really weak.
She is extremely strong. Works well with the game engine.
Good close and from afar. Locking down the opponent with sliding/venom strikes is very strong.

K':
People coming from the arcade shouldn't have difficulty, but those starting on console may struggle.
Corner combos and combos using meter are still effective.
Not quite top tier.

Kula:
I think she's a bit difficult to use losing invincibility on EX ray spin, as the invincibility on her
crow bytes is not that reliable. More range on s.B doesn't really change anything.
People will likely have a tough time as her damage output is not great.

Maxima:
EX press does less damage as well as some other minor damage nerfs.
Still very versatile and strong with meter.
On the other hand, he's slow and will be put into situations where he has to endure pressure.
Probably will only end up getting used by true Maxima users.

That covers all the characters I think.
My team will likely be Kyo/Goro/Claw Iori...
Because Goro's effectiveness is based on matchups, I may switch him with King or Vice.

I didn't discuss Flame Iori, but think he's top tier.
Very good tools, very stable. If you're not sure who to choose as a third character, he's very
easy to use and strong.
On the other hand, it could be said that he doesn't have a whole lot of potential to grow and that
other characters may become stronger. But at any rate, he's very stable currently.

Haven't discussed NESTS Kyo or Mr. Karate as they're not available yet, but I can't imagine any of
the DLC chrs being weak so please pick them up and give them a try.

lawl @ Kyo "takes skill to play."

We shouldn't be looking at the JPN chr rankings as being anything more that what we are doing right here. For example I was reading one of the popular anonymous BB type ranking threads:
http://jbbs.livedoor.jp/bbs/read.cgi/game/53747/1322852887/l50

Just a buncha guys doing what we're doing. (unless someone knows of some source with extremely high consensus numbers)

Here's a recent comment from yesterday:
Strong:
Kyo,Beni,Andy,Betty,Shen,Kim,Kensou,ClawIori,Yuri
Mid:
Everyone else
Weak:
Ryo,Mai,Raiden,Mature,Ralf

And an earlier one 3 days after release:
11/12/04
A…Kyo　Leona　ClawIori　Hwa　Chin　Betty　Shen　King　Vice

B…Athena　Billy　Beni　FlameIori　Andy　Kula　Joe　Ash

C…K'　Takuma　Kim　Yuri　Mature　Duo　Maxima

D…Robert　Ryo　Terry　Saiki　Mai　Clark Kensou　Ralf　Goro　Raiden


One thing that strikes me as interesting is that of the ones I've seen, no one puts Billy at the top. Kyo/Shen definitely belong up there imo. Sadly I'm going to have to agree with Ryo being not being top/mid tier (for now, I'm trying to figure out how to destroy with him - I think there's pleny of potential, I can get about 483 dmg in the corner with only one drive), but have to disagree with Saiki/Clark/Kensou/Goro being in D just above.

Still early so will be interesting to see what people think as this evolves. Although I didn't think so on day one/two I agree that FlameIori is up there. It's not just a matter of pure goodness in this chr's case, but he can be played so similarly to earlier renditions that everyone's who used to use him can be pretty strong.

Anyways, I totally agree that this stuff is fun to discuss

(if you guys are interested in what's being said on the JPN boards I can throw that in here from time to time as folks are writing in plenty of reasons as to why they rank the way they do)

I mostly just see people rockin' Kyo, K', Kula, Elisabeth, Athena and Yuri so information will probably come slow. When I saw Saiki's qcf+P fireball recovery and corner loop I swore that bum was broke.