Tier List Discussion.

[Remzi]

This has been pissing me off.

Yuki actually has good options, a godly anti-air that combos into everything, advantage against Kim and fairly good combos in general. Rock just sucks. Nako is generally good and has fairly high damage output. BIG has way too many punishable options. Akari has a shitton of frametraps, powerful combos, insanely good pokes, OTG's, parries, an airgrab, and errthing else.

God
Goodman

S
Kim
Hotaru

A
Haohmaru
Neo-Dio
Washizuka
Mizuchi
Robert
Akari
Marco
Moriya
Kisarah
Lee
Kaede
Iori
Hanzo

B
Mr. Big
Tung Fu Rue
Kyo
Mai
Fuma
Shiki
Mars People
Athena
Shermie
Mr. Karate
Cyber Woo
Terry
Ai
K'
Nakoruru

C
Geese
Yuki
King Lion
Asura
Chonrei
Genjyuro

D
Chonshu
Mudman
Rock

[jinxhand]

What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...

Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?

I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???

[Dark Geese]

What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...

Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?

I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???

Thats the Japanese Tier List that much I can tell you just from looking at it.

American Tier List/future Puebla, Mexico Tier List is this (July 2011):

GOD Tier:

Goodman


S Class:

Big, Kim, Hotaru,

S-:
Hanzo, Marco, Lee (In a Master's Hands he is the Angel of this game, the hardest character to master, but S Class in a Master's hands, I am going to Challenge Mexico to master him, a definite project for KULA...)

A Class:
Neo Dio, Tung, Iori, Kyo, King Lion, Mizuchi, Moriya, Kaede

B: Cyber Woo, Fuma, Kisarah, Goddess Athena, Akari, Mars Peep, Robert, Mudman, Mr. Karate, Haohmaru, Chonrei, Chonshu, Asura, Mai, Washizuka, Shiki, Ai (If you can master the infinite which I will get Kula to master just to show you guys how viable she can be in the RIGHT HANDS)

C: Rock, Geese, Mars Peep, K', Shermie, Nakoruru

Bottom Tier:

Genjuro, Yuki

[Remzi]

What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...

Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?

I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???

This was a mixture of Japanese and USA tier lists. Which characters in particular should I explain?

Nah. I'd make a matchup chart but I don't know a bunch of character's matchups aside from the ones I play.

My list is fairly matchup based, along with general potential. Worse the matchups, worse the character.

Geese, I really don't get your tier list. Mudman is bottom tier like everywhere, and wait. Lee being top? Lolno. He's great, but his stuff isn't too reliable and he has no legit methods to get out of pressure. I will give him this : He has a fantastic 4-way mixup off resets.

[Dark Geese]

What is this list based on, and what does each character have (or doesn't have) that places them in that particular tier. I can already tell you that there are a bunch of characters that I disagree with here in terms of placing, but please explain your reasoning for the placement of those characters...

Also, is there any distinction between those listed in one tier??? That is, does Lee's placing in the A tier make him weaker than say, Haohmaru?

I know that tier lists that are based on region since the same character is not gonna be strong everywhere this game is played (i.e. - Kisarah), and there are tiers based strictly on what a character can/can't do per matchup. So I'm gonna ask is this a tier list based on the latter, or is this a Canadian tier list (assuming your in Canada)???

This was a mixture of Japanese and USA tier lists. Which characters in particular should I explain?

Nah. I'd make a matchup chart but I don't know a bunch of character's matchups aside from the ones I play.

My list is fairly matchup based, along with general potential. Worse the matchups, worse the character.

Geese, I really don't get your tier list. Mudman is bottom tier like everywhere, and wait. Lee being top? Lolno. He's great, but his stuff isn't too reliable and he has no legit methods to get out of pressure. I will give him this : He has a fantastic 4-way mixup off resets.

I can see Lee being top tier at his maximum potential, being able to do things the way the Japanese player Debukun plays him, he is extremely deadly with meter, and I've played against a good Lee before so I know what he's capable of even in that matter. So I am looking at Lee in the maximum potential in Mexico at least... You say 4 way mixup I say he has way more than that in the right hands, if they can land his launcher to reset combo consistently, have access to meter, do not drop comboes, mix in the command grab and his crossups, Lee is extremely hard to fight trust me on this, he's Vega on steroids with a command grab you can combo off of at his maximum potential..good enough I could see in someone like Kula's hands or someone in Mexico with extremely high execution to place him Top Tier.

Remember he was A Class in US Tier List, so a jump from A to S isn't as big as you may think..it's all about the level of execution of the player, if the player has top level execution, Lee is S Class...if they don't have top level Angel level execution, Lee is A Class at best.

Thus my tier list is moreso again based on what I will see in Mexico in a year or so (mark my words...).

Hopefully that clarifies things!

=)

Mudman, I don't see him as Bottom Tier either because he can annoy people that do not have a good reversal or good DP to stop him (Hotaru, Marco for example), sure his damage isn't great but he can do enough damage and has a good enough mixup that he is better than Geese, Rock, or the C Class so he's not Bottom Tier at least here/Mexico. Mudman has been D Tier, but again I say like a lot of these characters? How often do you see them played??? I also had Mudman at A Class by accident, I'd say he is B Class...A Class gives him difficulty.. with the exception of Mizuchi, Mudman can shut down Mizuchi because Mizuchi cannot do much to stop dive kicks...

[Remzi]

Mizu has 623C > Divekick.

BIG is rated as S in most places. He's not that good though. Half of his moves are stupid unsafe and stupid GCFS-able. All he has is pokes, and semi-decent damage output if you're doing his fireball loops, which are high-execution.

Lee gets raped vs anybody with a good antiair and one decent normal w/ knockdown. Saying you've played against a good Lee isn't too significant considering I have too. It's easy to figure out Lee's tricks and avoid them. He has a 3-way directional mixup, and a grab from resets, which means it's four different options, ala 4way mixup. His crossup is fairly bad and can be ducked by many characters, unlike Iori's crossup move. Lee is A, not S. He's not Angel, he doesn't have stupid infinites off everything, nor does he have meterless combos that corner you and cost you 30% of your health. He has gimmicky resets and a decent mixup game.

[Dark Geese]

Mizu has 623C > Divekick.

BIG is rated as S in most places. He's not that good though. Half of his moves are stupid unsafe and stupid GCFS-able. All he has is pokes, and semi-decent damage output if you're doing his fireball loops, which are high-execution.

Lee gets raped vs anybody with a good antiair and one decent normal w/ knockdown. Saying you've played against a good Lee isn't too significant considering I have too. It's easy to figure out Lee's tricks and avoid them. He has a 3-way directional mixup, and a grab from resets, which means it's four different options, ala 4way mixup. His crossup is fairly bad and can be ducked by many characters, unlike Iori's crossup move. Lee is A, not S. He's not Angel, he doesn't have stupid infinites off everything, nor does he have meterless combos that corner you and cost you 30% of your health. He has gimmicky resets and a decent mixup game.

Yes anyone with a good anti air (good meaning it covers both sides of the character) can shut down Lee, Big can as well. The thing about Big though is he has the least BAD matchups..thats the thing matchups...and also a thing about BIG vs Lee is he (Lee) can't even cross him up because of the Spin Twirl Special. But I see Lee in the right hands again being good enough to be S-, and I have him as S at the end because I see him being like S- or borderline S played at his maximum potential. Lee has gimmicky resets, a decent mixup which can be deadly at the highest level, he's one of the fastest if not the fastest character in the game.

If MudMan does instant dive kick I believe his instant dive kick comes out faster that Mizuchis Dp+C. Instant dive Kick I mean right off the ground, not the one where he jumps and then does it..it comes out too fast.

I'll just have to show you this once I motivate Mexico to play him at his highest level..then you'll see what I'm talking about...I am going to make sure the people playing him play him to his maximum potential... Which I highly doubt most people in the Western Hemisphere have seen..but that is about to change let me assure you about that!!

At this point I think videos over a period of time would suffice (and remember when it happens, I told you so!)

[Remzi]

Big's average matchups are neutral, which means he doesn't deserve top-tier. Srsly.

Lee is good, doesn't mean he's top.

[Dark Geese]

Big's average matchups are neutral, which means he doesn't deserve top-tier. Srsly.

Lee is good, doesn't mean he's top.

He really doesn't have a bad matchup in the game, Kim doesn't either. Hotaru has a problem against well guess who? Mudman!!!! Marco even has problems against Mudman..

If a character has no bad matchups perse- that is one factor determining their high tier ranking. If a character has more bad matchups than good, well they are normally lower on the tier ranking. But I also say "Matchups" determines on how a character plays with a given character. So for example as Hummer said, Japanese style Choi vs. Japanese Style Iori, Japanese Choi wins.

But Japanese Choi vs. Mexican Iori, Mexican Iori wins...so this is why I say again there is still a lot out there left to be determined even if the game has been out for a while..the matchups may not be set in stone per se..I challenge people to justify every matchup in the game if they believe it to be in stone.

Also again remember, there are different tiers in different countries!!! So just because one character may not be top in one country for various reasons (As we've said may not get used a lot as a whole for people to know the full potential) doesn't mean they won't be top in another!

Also another thing with Lee I bet probably the Lee you were playing wasn't doing as it is very very difficult to do on a consistent basis:

Negative Edge Combo to f,b,f+C of cr.a x2 to launcher..

Expert Lees must master that to take him to the next level, not even the Lee I was playing could do that, but I do believe the people I am going to be telling to master it in Mexico will be able to take Lee to that next level I'm telling you about that I see him as in the right hands..

[Remzi]

He really doesn't have a bad matchup in the game, Kim doesn't either. Hotaru has a problem against well guess who? Mudman!!!! Marco even has problems against Mudman..

All the time I've played Hotaru, never had an issue with Mudman aside from my own stupidity / mistakes. She can deflect all of his projectiles, she has hyperarmor moves to break out mudman's mixups (which will get counterwire due to the fact his mixups have stupid counterhit frames)/
Marco has no issues with mudman. his grenades act as a fast AA, and you can easily machine-gun through his projectiles. Marco's jetpack > any projectiles that Mudman can use. Mudman's mixups are viable to the fact that Marco can summon a hobo.
Kim has issues against Yuki and a few other characters. BIG has issues with the following. DIO, Mizuchi, Tung, Washizuka, Moriya, Kaede, Iori. All of his other matchups are neutral or barely positive.

The Lee I was playing was doing 2BA 646C -> Resets. Lee ISN'T THAT GOOD. He has mixups. He still lacks damage output for the most part, and his resets are gimmicky because all of them can be jumped out of.

Also, how the hell is Hanzo S- tier? His damage output is terrible compared to other high-tiers, and he can't chain off lows.

Tung is NOT A-Tier. He has very few tools to properly rely on.

[Zabel]

Hanzo can chain off of lows, Cr. B, link Cr. A, DP or QCFx2+K. You're tier list is all wrong especially with Big being that fucking low.

[Remzi]

Hanzo can chain off of lows, Cr. B, link Cr. A, DP or QCFx2+K. You're tier list is all wrong especially with Big being that fucking low.

cr.BA doesn't lead to much. DP's whiff most of the time.

Everything BIG does is punishable, most of his normals can be GCFS'd, his projectile can be jumped, etc. That, plus the fact that the throw glitch breaks everything about him.

[Dark Geese]

If Mudman can get in the area in between Marco's grenades he can lock him down with Dive Kicks.

Grenades only cover a certain amount of space, it doesn't cover vertical space at all. I played Cajunstrike at Final Round a long time a go and I picked Mudman to counter his Hotaru-Marco team and took advantage of this very matchup....Hotaru cant counter instant divekicks fast enough but again you can't just be doing instant dive kicks, you have to mix it up with MudMan of course.

Tung also can give Hotaru and Marco a hard time if he can get in the area that they can't counter Dive Kicks well..you have to know where that area is for both Hotaru and Marco..

Marco- Again its the area that both grenades don't cover...all Mudman has to do is get him in that "area" and then Marco's gotta use meter to escape or get out...as in those money matches if you watched Cajunstrike has to do the same.

Now Marco has a good time keeping Mudman out, but when he gets in..it can be a problem.

Big does have some problems against Mizuchi that's correct remember about that.

Hanzo is very much versatile, easy damage of almost anything, good mixups, good defense, doesn't have too many bad matchups, can fight the top tiers.

Tung? Tung doesn't have much yes that's true, but he can make up for that with the amount of damage he can do....he doesnt need meter, Dive Kick Muscleman gives two meters, and we all know  how much damage Tung can do.... and though the majority of his game is around landing Muscleman in its variety of ways, he also can link EX kicks off a sweep, and other things....plus he doesn't need meter at all!!

[jinxhand]

Mudman can slide his way through most of Marco's crap, and at times air float if used with a super jump. Sometimes you might have to use those dives to shorten the air time, however... It takes some patience, but its worth it because Marco doesn't really have anything up-close except for his knife stance, but getting into that from straight zoning would be difficult right? Bait that Marco dive, and GCFS to grab, and then knee all day!!! Woo!!! Oh yeah, his running projectile super eats most of Marco's shenanigans, and if in range, that beam super catches Marco if he's trying to zone out. Some situations require a sacrifice hit, but all in the name of closing in...

Hanzo is so solid its ridiculous... I can't tell you how many solid Hanzo players I've fought who displayed good zoning and rushdown and was able to switch up instantly... All he needs is that 1 low hit, and 1 stock of meter, its a wrap!!!

As far as Big goes, man he should not be so low like that... Lariat is one of the best AAs in the game!!! Torpedo closes in and crushes lows, and can be used to push to the corner while staying up close to the opponent...

Please understand, GCFS is good, but its not that great. There are setups built just for the sole purpose of having the opponent waste meter thinking they can capitalize using GCFS. Delay-canceling into a multi-hitting move works among other things.

The hardest person to master in the game I feel is-- Yuki... I feel there are some others, but he seems to take the cake imo... Knowing the charges and when to use them, especially in combos, are essential. He has the weakest pokes I believe, mostly due to either them not being able to cancel, and/or it lacking range. Weak command throw that requires a charge doesn't help either. I feel its a tie between him and Asura as to who's specifically bottom tier...

Tung only needs meter for EX dash punch, which eats throw certain projectiles... Other than that, no he doesn't need meter at all...

[jinxhand]

Hanzo can chain off of lows, Cr. B, link Cr. A, DP or QCFx2+K. You're tier list is all wrong especially with Big being that fucking low.

cr.BA doesn't lead to much. DP's whiff most of the time.

You don't use Hanzo's DPs to combo on the ground, those are strictly for AA combos-- avoid the C DP altogether, his A DP is way better... As for 2B 2A, it doesn't lead to much, because all he needs is that to the super, or his kick special... His real game comes in the form of mixups, especially teleport to overhead crossup with 9B which can lead to the only combo he needs...