KOF XIII 5th |OT| Thread: Console Change log edition

[Running Wild]

So back stepping is pretty much almost exactly like RB2 or MOTW now, thats pretty awesome.

So Kim's Hangetsuzan is now not safe on block? But they didn't specify if it was just the strong or both versions... I guess we'll see. I don't think they could of made it too punishable though. In every KOF/FF game I played there were varying degree's of how you could punish the move, really I think the only game I played where you could really punish it well was in CvS2.

[Diavle]

So back stepping is pretty much almost exactly like RB2 or MOTW now, thats pretty awesome.

XIII's doesn't appear to have any invincbility unlike MOTW (which had tons).

Dunno about RB2.

[MUSOLINI]

hangetsuzan has ALWAYS been safe in every game hes been in depending on spacing and strength of the move used. and just because some people found it hard to stop it  doesn't mean  the move was spammable, it just meant the person getting hit by the shit doesn't understand how to stop it. if somebody doesn't know how to avoid kens fb, it won't make the move that much better, it just means he sucks or isn't knowledgeable about the game. there's at least 5 different ways to stop the hangetsuzan, if the opponent doesn't know how that's his/her loss, in both ways. nerfing this move is one of the lesser thought out thing's ive seen snkp do, especially considering how good most of the rest of the balancing was handled. for me this is the first serious balance fuck up snkp put in the console.

[BioBooster]

Hmm, you guys are beginning to sway me on backdash. I immediately thought of back dash in MOTW too bc that was the standard defensive option in that game that was of an evasion type. In addition, I wouldn't mind hearing Yamamoto's reason for including it - may end up being along the lines of what's said here which makes sense, I just thought it was an abrupt addition to the series in the way it's implemented (KOF had never had wake up backdashes that I know of and this is for a port for the most part).

Now what do you guys think about the guard gauge changes? That one I like a lot. It encourages the continuation of constant pressure and I thought recovery of the gauge took too long to initiate in the arcade, but sort of minor quibbles on that.

Ahem, so back to backdashing on wakeup - maybe it might be worth compiling that list of air moves that are confirmed to work during backdash that I was asking about on the tech thread. That to me is pretty interesting if you could be in the air in 1F and you didn't get hit on wakeup. I think a number of characters could benefit. King comes to mind right off the top of my head if I'm imagining this correctly.

[BioBooster]

So back stepping is pretty much almost exactly like RB2 or MOTW now, thats pretty awesome.

I don't think backstepping is the same as in MOTW, I remember the backdash to have invincible frames which was like MOTW's roll where KOF has no invincibility.

This 1F air off wakeup is certainly unique...eh, I'll probably end up liking it in the end

[Diavle]

hangetsuzan has ALWAYS been safe in every game hes been in depending on spacing and strength of the move used. and just because some people found it hard to stop it  doesn't mean  the move was spammable, it just meant the person getting hit by the shit doesn't understand how to stop it. if somebody doesn't know how to avoid kens fb, it won't make the move that much better, it just means he sucks or isn't knowledgeable about the game. there's at least 5 different ways to stop the hangetsuzan, if the opponent doesn't know how that's his/her loss, in both ways. nerfing this move is one of the lesser thought out thing's ive seen snkp do, especially considering how good most of the rest of the balancing was handled. for me this is the first serious balance fuck up snkp put in the console.

I don't see the problem when characters like K' (follow up to minute spike) and Kyo (running grab) got the exact same nerfs.

Kim doesn't need this, he doesn't chip people to death. I'll take a f,f+A buff and ex air super over it any day.

[zyn-cobra22]

  I wont worry too much about the kim nerf chances are players that choose him will find a way to work around it anyway it is kim after all, and who knows maybe this will force players that were using this move too much to change their strategy and find new ways to kick ass with him, im not worry about this nerf at all.

[Sharnt]

It's said qcb K has more recovery, it doesn't means it's unsafe like hell.

I think it will negative but something like -1/-2 so only grab char will punish it.

Btw it was said for kyo hcb K "Can be punish by normals".

[MUSOLINI]

i hope so sharnt. it seems people ar quick to forget people like k and kyo have multiple safe options and even set ups as opposed to kim who only had hangetsuzan as a half safe way to end blockstring and set shit up afterwards. now he literally has nothing cept meter options, unless it's just 1 to 3 frames negative (which would only change his gameplan vs command throw characters). if it's punishable by dp's or normals, kim has pretty much turned shit tier with this nerf. his buffs will be insignificant if this turns out to be punishable by normals, but i doubt and hope snkp isn't that fucking retarded.

edit: the backdashes are the same as from games as old as SS and FF2, this is nothing new people's (20 years old tech). as old as cancelling aerial moves during a backdash (ryo air fb kof 94/95, ukyo air fb SS2 etc).

[marchefelix]

Yeah... I'm definitely maining Duo Lon now

Ahem, so back to backdashing on wakeup - maybe it might be worth compiling that list of air moves that are confirmed to work during backdash that I was asking about on the tech thread. That to me is pretty interesting if you could be in the air in 1F and you didn't get hit on wakeup. I think a number of characters could benefit. King comes to mind right off the top of my head if I'm imagining this correctly.

PLEASE DO THIS!!!

I was playing KOF '98 and I was messing around with people in EX mode to see how useful their aerial moves were. This sparked within me an obsession with backdashing/forward-dashing (in EX mode only) and seeing how their aerial moves would work out.

So yeah, do this. I'd help you out, but I haven't played the damn game yet... 

[SAB-CA]

Musolini, every "This move was exceedingly safe" ground special has pretty much been made SOME degree of "unsafe" now; Kyo's dashing grab, K' Minute spikes -> Slide, Leona's traditional Grand Saber, Terry's Burn Knuckle in the arcades, Maxima's EX Press... I agree it's a bit different for Kim, since he doesn't have as many other options, but he also has excellent air mobility, 2 aerial moves that can be EX'd for combos, a strong normal that he can link off of, and probably one of the best hop A's in the game.

My guess is that they wanted him to be less about defense / turtling up, and more about varied pressure, mixups, and punishing strongly off almost any hit he lands. Fireballers and zoners are suppose to lead by chip, but people with good mobility and fight options are suppose to lead by technical in-fighting and knowledge. I think they're trying to make Kim and Leona depend on this style of fighting more.

Most Kims I've seen fight, I don't even remember making HUGE use of HGZ pressure. They used it, but not consistently. It was much more about landing the low kicks into the stand, into the flying kick, into knockdowns of DMs. Since that's all basically been buffed on consoles, I think they made the right decision.

[Reiki.Kito]

I can say I am happy K' nerfs were carried out, but really it feels odd. I don't know what to really think honestly. Does K' still have viability as a starter? He doesn't have a lot of pressure moves anymore aside from his normals and since most of his combos need meter now, he's much like a 2nd place Terry. It does make me consider K' more in the air.

For example, if someone backdashes, I wonder if you'll have enough time to Minute Spike since it's an anywhere juggle. It doesn't seem like his damage has changed, but midscreen he's not going to be so good anymore. Hmmm...Well, have to go through this with a fine-toothed comb to figure out some good stuff and maybe glean some new game strategies.

[Diavle]

i hope so sharnt. it seems people ar quick to forget people like k and kyo have multiple safe options and even set ups as opposed to kim who only had hangetsuzan as a half safe way to end blockstring and set shit up afterwards. now he literally has nothing cept meter options, unless it's just 1 to 3 frames negative (which would only change his gameplan vs command throw characters). if it's punishable by dp's or normals, kim has pretty much turned shit tier with this nerf. his buffs will be insignificant if this turns out to be punishable by normals, but i doubt and hope snkp isn't that fucking retarded.

You sound like someone who has no clue how Kim plays in XIII, he didn't rely on QCB+B at all but could abuse it for meter gain. He has options up the wazoo for block strings and hit confirms into whatever the hell he wants. Say hello to down Bs, into stand B into ff+A (which hits crouchers now) and a two hit standing D after which you can link more normals into further combos. All these are safe and give him forever to hit confirm into supers, DC combos or HD.

So now he has much better f,f+A, an ex air super and can combo for free after a super fast and excellent QCB+BD and you are going to sit there and bitch that he is shit tier without  that QCB+B? Sure.

[SAB-CA]

Why is everyone speaking as if we haven't seen a LOT of these changes already, in hours of French-born footage? Even the Evo and Otakon builds seem to have them all THERE, we just didn't know to look for / use them.

Reiki, I think K' will be fine. We've seen him in eLive vids since these nerfs were added, and did they really seem to make him that bad? He'll still be a good starter, he just won't be amazingly over-done like he was before, to the point where NOONE wanted to replace him with anyone but say, Andy, or if they were bold / 317, Chin?

The game is easily going to be more about picking who YOU want to use, and who YOU want to spend meter on, than it was before, but I think they're trying hard to make sure whomever you pick, the character is a viable choice.

It won't be a perfect balance, of course. But it'll mostly likely be a very tight tier listing, where things are proven more by excellence of play, rather than choice of character.

[MUSOLINI]

i agree to a degree sab, all the characters you mentioned still have at least 1 safe special for possibly ending blockstring with and possibly setting something up afterwards. without a hangetsuzan that's at the very least safe against normals kim has literally nothing that doesnt cost meter. this is actually a pretty huge fucking deal because now kim has to keep moving and taking bigger risks. he can only set shit up now after a knock down or after using meter. im hoping it won't be more than 2 frames negative when properly spaced, othwise i doubt there'll be a kim worthwhile in XIII. we'll see how it ends.