Author Topic: Chin Gentsai (Console)  (Read 60240 times)

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2011, 03:03:45 PM »
My win rate was pretty good before but its even better now with the Ralf/Chin duo. I say duo because thanks to these two I barely get to use my third character. Fighting Chin seems to be pretty disheartening, a few combos and ppl leave often. And I now fully realize why you said you are grateful for fireball whores with him in that zoning thread, I now look forward to them as well. Hcf+BD is so good, went straight through Joe's hurricane for a photo finish.

*Choir of angels sing*

*reads holy Chin wiki scriptures*

Careful as both qcb A or C are punishable on block.

Yeah, found that out the hard way. How about the first kick of df+B? Is that very punishable? Tried it in practice and it didn't seem to be at too much of a disadvantage on block.

Further on hit confirms, in the wiki thread you posted sC, sC combos, is that with the use of the kick stance? I tried it otherwise and couldn't do it, only worked by canceling the first C into the kick stance and then doing the second C. Also kind of did a cheap shortcut by doing d.C, d.D, sC so you don't need to tap twice for the kick stance.

Also got a simple HD loop going via hcf+K, df+B, df+B, qcb+P. Simple and does about 50% damage with no meter. Will try learning something more juicy soon. Though I don't know if its worth going into HD with him, unless you are left with very little or no meter and have full drive.

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When you starting mastering his cancels into his kick stance you won't even need to hit confirm as you can either hop cancel into more pressure or end it in a s.C.

Didn't think of using his kick stance like Ramon's back step cancel move, will experiment with it in practice when I get home.  

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Might not be such a bad thing anymore, his active windows for his counters are so short now it gets me into more trouble than it's worth sometimes.

After getting kicked in the face a few times I see what you mean. Still plan to use them though, the damage is tempting and its good to keep the opponent on his/her toes I think (kinda like how you think twice about rushing in on someone who has access to a good dp).

Only time I use qcb AC in combos is using the free special cancel off the hcf BD for the extra 120 damage and of course juggling with hcf B -->...afterwards

Thanks, gonna try those.

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You're meant to use the mix ups with the overhead cancel (hold D) for d.B combos or throw combos!

Lol, will do sir.

df+D into three quickie punch reps into more pain feels so good.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 05:22:42 PM by Diavle »

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2011, 06:05:24 AM »
My win rate was pretty good before but its even better now with the Ralf/Chin duo. I say duo because thanks to these two I barely get to use my third character.

You use two of my three characters, cool.

Fighting Chin seems to be pretty disheartening, a few combos and ppl leave often. And I now fully realize why you said you are grateful for fireball whores with him in that zoning thread, I now look forward to them as well. Hcf+BD is so good, went straight through Joe's hurricane for a photo finish.

Yeah lol, that move IS good.  Wish it had startup invincibility as well but I suppose that's asking too much.

Further on hit confirms, in the wiki thread you posted sC, sC combos, is that with the use of the kick stance? I tried it otherwise and couldn't do it, only worked by canceling the first C into the kick stance and then doing the second C. Also kind of did a cheap shortcut by doing d.C, d.D, sC so you don't need to tap twice for the kick stance.

Yeah, sorry I should have clarified, I just wrote it shorthand for myself really.  s.C --> d x2+K~C is what I mean by s.C, s.C.

After getting kicked in the face a few times I see what you mean. Still plan to use them though, the damage is tempting and its good to keep the opponent on his/her toes I think (kinda like how you think twice about rushing in on someone who has access to a good dp).

It still leads to good damage, especially if you can time the hcf B after the B counter or hit confirm the D counter for a hcf BD combo.

Lol, will do sir.

df+D into three quickie punch reps into more pain feels so good.

I'm currently working on a combo string I saw the other day: df.D~C (QuikiePunches), (d x2+K~C) x2, df.B/hcf BD ...

More challenging but definitely worth the damage.  If done correctly, you can actually do two QP before the two s.Cs.

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2011, 03:26:42 PM »
You use two of my three characters, cool.

Wait, you switched to Ralf? Who did you drop? Duolon?

I actually wanted to suggest Ralf to you but didn't want to be nosey.

Yeah lol, that move IS good.  Wish it had startup invincibility as well but I suppose that's asking too much.

Yeah, lets just be grateful its as good as it is now.

Have you experimented with it via air HD bypass? I was messing with it in practice and I think it has potential, the ex version I mean.

You can activate it pretty high off the ground and you immediately see the blue ex effect with Chin auto dashing to the ground to immediately go into the move. I recorded Kyo into throwing fireballs and it went right through it and opened the window for an HD combo right after it connected. So, theoretically, if you see a move coming you can cut your jump short and go straight into HD via HCF+BD's invincibility. Wonder if it can be used to bait people into doing something via seemingly random jumps.

Yeah, sorry I should have clarified, I just wrote it shorthand for myself really.  s.C --> d x2+K~C is what I mean by s.C, s.C.

Seems like its another occasion I may have to swich to the d-pad for. I was already doing it for the df+B kicks and this seems to need it as well since I can't double tap consistently on the analog stick. Its kinda funny and fun in that during combo's with Chin I'm constantly switching between the dpad and analog stick for move motions (analog for circular motions and dpad for df+B etc).

Hope I can get it down b/c I really like this sC, sC.

I'm currently working on a combo string I saw the other day: df.D~C (QuikiePunches), (d x2+K~C) x2, df.B/hcf BD ...

More challenging but definitely worth the damage.  If done correctly, you can actually do two QP before the two s.Cs.

Sounds interesting but tough, will try it out (though I doubt I'll land it).

On a sidenote I'm now using Chin "Disney's Aladdin" Gentsai, it made so much sense I couldn't resist.

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2011, 01:25:05 PM »
Wait, you switched to Ralf? Who did you drop? Duolon?

I actually wanted to suggest Ralf to you but didn't want to be nosey.

Getting off topic, but I guess I misunderstood you; I use Duo Lon and Chin.

Have you experimented with it via air HD bypass? I was messing with it in practice and I think it has potential, the ex version I mean.

I've never thought of it being used that way, I'll play around with that!

I was already doing it for the df+B kicks and this seems to need it as well since I can't double tap consistently on the analog stick.

Just double checking and you probably know this, once you're in the kick stance, you just press B and it does his df.B.  So in the corner if I'm doing the df.B juggles you just tap B x N.

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2011, 10:08:55 PM »
Just double checking and you probably know this, once you're in the kick stance, you just press B and it does his df.B.  So in the corner if I'm doing the df.B juggles you just tap B x N.

Yep, I know, I just switch to the dpad to make sure I land it.

PaTrickC

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2012, 04:52:37 AM »
my dream team? K' , Kyo , ;c hin!

Hope they will find  ;c hin's better half this year! HNY:Ddd
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 12:43:31 AM by PaTrickC »
Play life don't let it play you!

gazette

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #36 on: February 29, 2012, 10:22:56 PM »
Not sure if I can post it here, need some advice from Chin masters. I understand Chin fighting style is very different from his past and he has many stances as well, which allow him to have more options to fight the opponent.

I do humbly ask how to fight Chin? I'm clueless and have almost no matchup experience against this drunken master.  I was playing online with a decent guy who anchor Chin as his main. I had no problem with his 1st and 2nd characters most of the time until he unleash this beast with a full HD bar and almost 4 bars to begin with most of the time. Now this is where the real fight starts for me. I don't have any idea what should I do to counter or bait any of his unsafe move. All I can say is Chin did most of the work for him. Kudos to his Chin too.

PS: I understand this is a Chin thread, but I would want to learn some matchups too. Thanks in advance.

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2012, 03:38:57 AM »
Not sure if I can post it here, need some advice from Chin masters. I understand Chin fighting style is very different from his past and he has many stances as well, which allow him to have more options to fight the opponent.

I do humbly ask how to fight Chin? I'm clueless and have almost no matchup experience against this drunken master.  I was playing online with a decent guy who anchor Chin as his main. I had no problem with his 1st and 2nd characters most of the time until he unleash this beast with a full HD bar and almost 4 bars to begin with most of the time. Now this is where the real fight starts for me. I don't have any idea what should I do to counter or bait any of his unsafe move. All I can say is Chin did most of the work for him. Kudos to his Chin too.

PS: I understand this is a Chin thread, but I would want to learn some matchups too. Thanks in advance.

I'm no Chin master by any means but I do main Chin so I'll throw in my two cents.

First of all, what characters are you using?

Second of all, is the Chin user doing HD combos on you because if he is--does not truly understand how he's meant to be played.  

Overall, Chin is more meter efficient (and practical) with 1 drive + several stocks and seeing that it's not easy to land a jump in with him for HD combos PLUS you can start combos with counters and Ex hcf K (which do NOT allow you to go into HD since they're in a juggled state)--he's really trolling you if that's the case.

It's been mentioned many times thruout this thread and the arcade thread that like everyone else, Chin's very punishable.  

1) His overhead can be punished after being block before the Quickie Punches come up with a fast reversal, 1-frame grab, or even a regular roll.
2) hcf K is vulnerable to low hits; Ex version is not (full invincibility during roll)
3) Ex hcf K and Ex qcb P is -1 (at least it was in the arcade) so those two are the ones you have to pay attention to, the others are pretty punishable.
4) Even if the Chin user does the overhead feint you have time to block high (which of course you won't be blocking because he canceled the overhead) and then block low if he goes for a low setup.
5) His counter games have severely been weakened since the arcade.  B counter counters high to mid hits and most specials (if not all) for that matter.  D counter counters low hits so knowing that just mix up your hits.  Ex counter does both but the active windows is stupidly short.
6) Never let him drink.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 12:06:15 PM by Kane317 »

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2012, 09:16:15 PM »
Still sporting this character regularly, easily one of my faves in the entire cast (which I use most of). Now he's one of the characters I delegate to anchor to hold the fort while the first 2 spots are taken up by newer characters I'm learning.

His overall playstyle is just so fun and fresh. The usual pattern is me running a mixup and landing with a sweet ex/dc combo but sometimes the opponent is extra careful and all jumpy and I have to improvise and land damage from unorthodox situations. Thats when the character becomes damn fun to play and the drive cancel system really shines.

Getting great milage out of his counters. Are they 1 frame? They sure as heck seem to start up instantly, in fact I stick em in between my opponent's block strings so if it isn't a true string (like Leona's sB into fwd+B or inbetween the two kicks of Kyo's qcf+K) then you get a free counter and combo, similar to what people do with grapplers and their 1-frame grabs. I find the normal counters to be rather lenient but have to approach the ex counter with a parry timing mentality, which makes sense given the damage it awards.

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2012, 08:53:55 PM »
Yeah I still play Chin every match ;)

Getting great milage out of his counters. Are they 1 frame? They sure as heck seem to start up instantly, in fact I stick em in between my opponent's block strings so if it isn't a true string (like Leona's sB into fwd+B or inbetween the two kicks of Kyo's qcf+K) then you get a free counter and combo, similar to what people do with grapplers and their 1-frame grabs. I find the normal counters to be rather lenient but have to approach the ex counter with a parry timing mentality, which makes sense given the damage it awards.

If not 1 frame at the most 2 or something, I definitely treat it like a 1 frame.  UPDATE Chin's data is out (I'll update it in a bit) and yes it's 1 frame.  If you find the normal counters lenient then you must think the arcade version counters were forever and a day.

On a unrelated note, I just found out the other day that although Chin's stance fwd/bck+C Command normal throw can be tech'd (boo), it's treated like a command throw when you have Chin trying to command normal throw a 1 frame grab as well--they'll both miss each other...cool beans.

---

I'm currently working on a combo string I saw the other day: df.D~C (QuickiePunches), (d x2+K~C) x2, df.B/hcf BD ...

More challenging but definitely worth the damage.  If done correctly, you can actually do two QP before the two s.Cs.

FWIW, I finally got around practicing the aforementioned starter.  So: Overhead --> QP --> s.C x2... is definitely worth the extra damage but due to scaling sadly Overhead --> QP x2 --> s.C x2... does less damage.  It looks cool but it's not worth the extra difficulty.

midscreen: df.D~C, (d x2+K~C) x2, hcf BD, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.B~B, s.C - 554
fullscreen variant: df.D~C, (d x2+K~C) x2, hcf BD, hcf B, df B, qcb A, [DC] hcf D, df.B x3, s.C - 524

On the second (d x2+K~C) you can exchange that for d x2+BD --> Far C for 10 extra damage.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 12:07:56 PM by Kane317 »

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2012, 01:54:59 PM »
Sweet, can't wait to see that frame data.

I think the startup for the counter is about as or more lenient than Rock Howard's. If the ones in the arcade were way more lenient then oh man, I would have done them all day. The counters are great though, the B counter is my fave. Works great generally and is also an excellent answer to cross-ups. Why is crouching A considered a low hit though? I'm fairly cetain I saw it stuff my B counter. D counter hasn't been too useful so far. Do you have any problems following up after an ex counter? My HCF+B often misses and the opponent just crumples to the ground. Maybe doing it too late I guess.

I really like that combo you posted, I went straight into EX df+BD after the QPs instead and did the DC at the end. Yours is more front loaded on heavy hits though which leads to better damage. Gonna steal it, thanks.

What do you like to do after a blocked df+D btw?

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2012, 11:46:24 AM »
Sweet, can't wait to see that frame data.

Sorry being procrastinating HARD...urm I mean busy at work :)

I think the startup for the counter is about as or more lenient than Rock Howard's. If the ones in the arcade were way more lenient then oh man, I would have done them all day.

They were too good.  I was waaaaay too over reliant on them because they were that good.  Since console I've learned Chin a lot more thoroughly now.  Ex counter was stupid good although I always say they should a) either give back the amount of active frames for his Ex counter that they had in the arcade (which was the same duration as the current B counter) or b) keep the damage they had in the arcade for his Ex counter (260 vs 199 over four scaled hits).  

I find myself using his Ex qcb P more now even though it's only 120 damage but it's hits only once and hence less scaling b) gives less meter to the opponent (I need to double check but I'm pretty sure) and c) safer in recovery (-1) and from empty hops (expecting a counter).  The catch is you pretty much need to use a drive to make the move worthwhile.

The counters are great though, the B counter is my fave. Works great generally and is also an excellent answer to cross-ups. Why is crouching A considered a low hit though? I'm fairly cetain I saw it stuff my B counter. D counter hasn't been too useful so far.

Well if Chin was taller, I guarantee all d.A would be low counters but as he stands right now (see what I did there), standard d.As all hit his gut level lol.

Do you have any problems following up after an ex counter? My HCF+B often misses and the opponent just crumples to the ground. Maybe doing it too late I guess.
 

You're just doing it too late.  Cancel on the fourth hit (the animation is his s.CD) and you're good.   If anything, I tend to miss his qcb D the most, then his qcb B, then Ex qcb K I miss the least.   Especially since I like to do Ex hcf K afterwards you have to time it correctly.

I really like that combo you posted, I went straight into EX df+BD after the QPs instead and did the DC at the end. Yours is more front loaded on heavy hits though which leads to better damage. Gonna steal it, thanks.

Yeah do it and there's not turning back.  The damage difference is significant and most Chin players I've seen from MastaCJ to Fox, do not use that variation if I recall and they're missing out on big damage.

What do you like to do after a blocked df+D btw?

Most of the SoCal players won't let me continue from that point.  They'll either throw me, normal roll after it, or do a fast reversal.  I would say my success rate of a blockstring after the overhead is less than 50% now.

To answer you question I'd do one set of QP, then I'd cancel into s.C and watch opponent to see what they do.  What I really should be doing however is canceling that s.C into d x2+BD to cancel my recovery.


---

Do me a favor and goto this thread and tell them you confirmed my combo for me:

1 stock, 1 drive
Midscreen: j.C, s.C, Far C, hcf BD, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.B~B, s.C - 603

In order to get the s.C into Far C to connect: s.C, d x2+BD, press C again.  
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 11:49:22 AM by Kane317 »

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2012, 03:05:38 AM »
Sorry being procrastinating HARD...urm I mean busy at work :)

Heh, doubt you're as bad as me when it comes to procrastinating.

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They were too good.  I was waaaaay too over reliant on them because they were that good.  Since console I've learned Chin a lot more thoroughly now.  Ex counter was stupid good although I always say they should a) either give back the amount of active frames for his Ex counter that they had in the arcade (which was the same duration as the current B counter) or b) keep the damage they had in the arcade for his Ex counter (260 vs 199 over four scaled hits).  

I find myself using his Ex qcb P more now even though it's only 120 damage but it's hits only once and hence less scaling b) gives less meter to the opponent (I need to double check but I'm pretty sure) and c) safer in recovery (-1) and from empty hops (expecting a counter).  The catch is you pretty much need to use a drive to make the move worthwhile.

Nerfing a poor old man for no reason, such discrimination. At least I didn't have a taste of that goodness so ain't too disappointed. I can see why they did it though, since they aren't just counters, like most other such moves in games, but rather full on combo starters.

Yeah I use the EX qcb+P often as well, it pretty much acts like an invincible DP. You do need DC midscreen but at least it leaves the opponent in a juggle state in the corner (or close to it) so you are guaranteed a combo without drive.


Quote
Well if Chin was taller, I guarantee all d.A would be low counters but as he stands right now (see what I did there), standard d.As all hit his gut level lol.

Cheap shot hehe but yeah I was very surprised. I'm used to MOTW and 3rd Strike where you only need to low counter/parry attacks that need to be blocked low.

 
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You're just doing it too late.  Cancel on the fourth hit (the animation is his s.CD) and you're good.   If anything, I tend to miss his qcb D the most, then his qcb B, then Ex qcb K I miss the least.   Especially since I like to do Ex hcf K afterwards you have to time it correctly.

I uhh... didn't know you had to cancel the last hit lol, always waited for the counter attack animation to finish before inputting hcf+K. Problem solved.

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To answer you question I'd do one set of QP, then I'd cancel into s.C and watch opponent to see what they do.  What I really should be doing however is canceling that s.C into d x2+BD to cancel my recovery.

Didn't know you could get an instant cancel with dwn x2+BD, damn, SNK really went the extra mile in this game. So much thought has gone into this character. Still have to get used to the kick stance cancelling but think I'll stick to this strategy.

Yeah MastaCJ and that french player and another one whose name I can't remember all put him as anchor and focus on landing an HD combo, which I think is the wrong way to approach the character.


Quote
Do me a favor and goto this thread and tell them you confirmed my combo for me:

1 stock, 1 drive
Midscreen: j.C, s.C, Far C, hcf BD, hcf B, qcb C, [DC] hcf D, df.B, hcf B, df.B~B, s.C - 603

In order to get the s.C into Far C to connect: s.C, d x2+BD, press C again.  


Done.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 03:33:33 AM by Diavle »

Kane317

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2012, 10:20:14 AM »
I uhh... didn't know you had to cancel the last hit lol, always waited for the counter attack animation to finish before inputting hcf+K. Problem solved.

YO!  Adding difficulty for yourself eh?  Is it even possible to combo without canceling?

I find myself using his Ex qcb P more now even though it's only 120 damage but it's hits only once and hence less scaling b) gives less meter to the opponent (I need to double check but I'm pretty sure)  

Check.

Didn't know you could get an instant cancel with dwn x2+BD, damn, SNK really went the extra mile in this game. So much thought has gone into this character. Still have to get used to the kick stance cancelling but think I'll stick to this strategy.

Yeah it's not saying much because XIII isn't known for it's crazy depth compared to some older ones, but he's easily the most technical of the small roster.

Yeah MastaCJ and that french player and another one whose name I can't remember all put him as anchor and focus on landing an HD combo, which I think is the wrong way to approach the character.

Yeah I agree, I think they're still strong Chin players but they can do so much better.  MastaCJ uses pad so his d x2+K~C cancels are easier IMO but I guess to each and his own.  He does use the QP into s.C into HD quite consistently so props to him.  Fox overall uses the d x2+BD cancels better than MastaCJ.

I play him totally different but trying to incorporate some of their gameplay.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 10:29:13 AM by Kane317 »

Diavle

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Re: Chin Gentsai (Console)
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2012, 02:34:13 PM »
Do you know if canceling a QP via dwnx2 BD on block leaves you at a frame advantage? Like if I cancel and immediately go into an sC or sA or cr.B, will it be a true block string?

YO!  Adding difficulty for yourself eh?  Is it even possible to combo without canceling?

Yeah hehe, timing is tight though (easier in the corner).

Quote
Yeah it's not saying much because XIII isn't known for it's crazy depth compared to some older ones, but he's easily the most technical of the small roster.

What? I think its easily the deepest one, I can barely even watch match vids for the previous ones these days.

Its the type of fighter where ppl will be discovering things for years to come imo.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 02:50:14 PM by Diavle »