Topic: The King of Fighters XIII Gameplay discussion (All shortcuts on 1st page)

[giga_d]

joe apparently has none on his light dp+b, it's just really fast, but that's something to confirm for sure when ppl have the game in their hands. Also some light dp's have knock down properties heavy versions don't (i.e. Ryo?)

[Kane317]

0- The most important thing to understand is the backdash makes you in airborn state after the first frame, so on the first frame you're still on the ground to be hitted by any meaty or whatever
1- The backdash has 0 (ZERO) frames of invincibility
2- If a special hits you in the air depending on the properties of this special you can be juggle/combo after that
3- If a command move hits you, you can be in a juggle state in the air depending on the properties of this special you can be juggle/combo after that
4- After a normal move you're in recovering state, so you can be only hit by free juggle moves
5- Anti air throws will catch you

The backdash has been a big topic for several us that have been testing the game.  Yes there are ways around people abusing it, and yes there are always ways to counter it, but it still is a problem for certain wake up games that require you to commit to an attack strategy.

Let's say you're Vice or Ryo, you can't do overhead into DM. They even made their f.As [SC]-only and now it's rather useless in wake up games.  Grapplers as well that have to commit to grabbing their opponent on wakeup (the oldest shortcut of hcb C --> hcb C for either Clark or Goro isn't going to work on wake up if the opponent backdash). 

Either one of the scenarios the first hit (be hit command attack or s.C) will hit the now airborne opponent although the DM may or may not actually come out, you'll be in some sort of recovery frames allowing your opponent to escape.  If for some reason the move does come out, you might even be subjected to a punish.

As for the timing the meaty hit, I suppose when you guys get your hands on the game you'll see if it's viable (since I'm not allowed to reveal what I have "found").

[Sharnt]

Hmm after an overhead the SC don't let you combo if you hit your opponent in a back dash? The super whiffs ? Because i don't know the property of those moves very well ...

And i can't test by my own so ...

BTW the free juggle non ex move will be very powerful in this case, K' didn't have said his last word.

[milesw]

0- The most important thing to understand is the backdash makes you in airborn state after the first frame, so on the first frame you're still on the ground to be hitted by any meaty or whatever
1- The backdash has 0 (ZERO) frames of invincibility
2- If a special hits you in the air depending on the properties of this special you can be juggle/combo after that
3- If a command move hits you, you can be in a juggle state in the air depending on the properties of this special you can be juggle/combo after that
4- After a normal move you're in recovering state, so you can be only hit by free juggle moves
5- Anti air throws will catch you

And if someone will poke you out of you're dp he will probably use a fast light in meaty and you lose or a j.CD and you lose again.

If the meaty is good made enough the dp will whiff or be guarded.

On this topic though..
Who out of all the characters in the game have invincible DPs from the first frame?

Roughly every A/B dp move has invincibility on his start up. I don't remind any exception. Some have invincibility after the first few frames following the activation.

So how do you explain being hit or trading with a meaty timed normal on my wake if Im doing...lets say andy's dp+A or even C version
I've had numerous occasions where it just trades. But ex DP owns everything. Same can be said for Yuri.

I dunno much about the KOF system so in that scenario that means what in terms of invincibility frames?

[Reiki.Kito]

Hmm after an overhead the SC don't let you combo if you hit your opponent in a back dash? The super whiffs ? Because i don't know the property of those moves very well ...

And i can't test by my own so ...

BTW the free juggle non ex move will be very powerful in this case, K' didn't have said his last word.

That's what I was trying to say: If you backdash on wakeup, you get knocked down again and you can recovery roll, but unless the move is like an anywhere juggle kind of move or it's counter hit, you might not get hit.

So it's a defensive option that's pretty viable on wake-up. Probably won't effect people like Clark who, if he guesses right, can just grab you anyway in the corner. However, it will make you consider your oki game a little because that's now an option.

Things like Iori's moves on wake-up will probably still catch you because his Maiden Masher can grab you out of the air when you hit them. Same for K' EX Chain Drive. Moves like Takuma's EX Haoshokoken will probably miss because the first hit knocked down. Ryo's overhead on wake-up or a low B's, will just knock people down and the opponent might go on autopilot. For example, if Terry does a usually blockstring, he'll include df+C in any of it. But df+C isn't safe on whiff and it'll definitely whiff if you knock someone down with a C or a D. Meanwhile, you're recovering. See how that can be kinda bad?

Might also be the case in frame traps too? I don't know if it's on recovery or at all times, but a 1 frame activation could mean you get out of frame trap strings with characters without one-frame moves.

[Sharnt]

So how do you explain being hit or trading with a meaty timed normal on my wake if Im doing...lets say andy's dp+A or even C version
I've had numerous occasions where it just trades. But ex DP owns everything. Same can be said for Yuri.

I dunno much about the KOF system so in that scenario that means what in terms of invincibility frames?

I said there is invincibility on the start up, I didn't say they are fully invincible.

...

It just force you to time your meaty to hit at the first frame of the wake up (That is the idea when you're doing a meaty). And you will hit your opponent because if he wants to do his backdash has a reversal he won't guard your meaty which will punish the backdash.

For frame traps it seems to become a far more reliable option. But if you're using a close move for you're frame trap and the far version of the move has more range or you're move is whiff cancelable you can always hit you're opponent i guess.
It will just enhance CD utilisation imo. Because they all are whiff cancelable and oftenly go forward. It's making CD the perfect option in those kind of situations if you expect a backdash from your opponent since he's knocking down (But it's a soft one).

[Kane317]

Hmm after an overhead the SC don't let you combo if you hit your opponent in a back dash? The super whiffs ? Because i don't know the property of those moves very well ...

Well it won't combo because you'll be technically in the air, so the overhead would just reset you.  We're talking about if the overhead or the first hit does not hit them when they're still on the ground--considering it only takes them 1F to get there, it's a very high chance.

BTW the free juggle non ex move will be very powerful in this case, K' didn't have said his last word.

Vice, K', Raiden (technically haha), Yuri, Liz will have fun with some mind games due to their anywhere juggles.

---

All I can say about the backdash is for those who have access to the game, try setting up where one person knocks the person down, then tell the person to spam backdash, meanwhile try to time meaty attacks and see what the result is.

[davidkong07]

so, as long as we have frame perfect meaty attacks, theoretically we can still fully punish backdashes eh? that's cool. same shit in sf4, it might take us some time to time well, but eventually it shouldn't be a rare occurrence, given specific untechable knockdowns. just thank god that back dashes don't have any invincibility!!


and Kane, could you possibly tell us definitively which uppercuts have invincibility? that would be greatly helpful i think.

[Kane317]

and Kane, could you possibly tell us definitively which uppercuts have invincibility? that would be greatly helpful i think.

Heck I don't know off the top of my head.  I just the majority of them do, having said that, it's not a good idea to do wake up DPs in KOF in general.  In the arcade v1.1 it was more about wake up Exs but console has removed a lot of the Ex specials' properties across the board.

[giga_d]

If you backdash just as Vice does her command grab so that it misses she will still be safe from a run-in meaty. I'm pretty sure.

I'd even go as far as to say Clarks commad grab D in that same situation is also much safer than in 2k2um. The recovery frames are really shorter. A short hesitation watching if he did something and then deciding to attack is all he needs to block, ex-gatling or attempt a grab again as you run in.

[omegaryuji]

0- The most important thing to understand is the backdash makes you in airborn state after the first frame, so on the first frame you're still on the ground to be hitted by any meaty or whatever

Are we sure about this?  This was my initial understandaing as well, but the video for the "1 frame backdash" change sure looked like a meaty hit still forced an aerial reset.  I guess we'll see some stuff soon from the people with early releases, since Kane is keeping his secrets *laughs*

So how do you explain being hit or trading with a meaty timed normal on my wake if Im doing...lets say andy's dp+A or even C version
I've had numerous occasions where it just trades. But ex DP owns everything. Same can be said for Yuri.

I dunno much about the KOF system so in that scenario that means what in terms of invincibility frames?

The way that invincible DPs typically work in KOF (haven't tested extensively in XIII yet myself, but what Sharnt says seems to agree with this) is that they have invincible frames through startup only.  This means that they won't get stuffed but will trade with anything that's already active inside of them once the DP reaches active frames.

EX specials are a whole different matter.

Might also be the case in frame traps too? I don't know if it's on recovery or at all times, but a 1 frame activation could mean you get out of frame trap strings with characters without one-frame moves.

It would work like this against a frame trap:

Char A does frame trap opening
Char B backdashes during the gap
Char A hits with the next part of the frame trap against an aerial opponent

Further implications would depend on the exact frame trap being used.

[BioBooster]

I'm hopeful that meaty attacks will still hit on the ground. Now that I think about it, there might be a clue here in terms of terminology.

SNK referred to certain PDMs in MOTW as being "zero frame moves" (straight from SNK literature) such as Gato's, Dong's, etc. That meant if you weren't already blocking you got destructed by the move. To me that would imply a "one frame" move requires 1 frame to transpire before the airborne state is initiated, thereby making the full benefits of a meaty valid.

I'm hoping that the above is true, otherwise wake-up backdashing might be used 70-95% of the time by players who know about it in the corner until the opponent began using a vs backdashing strategy such as hd-juggling/supering on oki...

[shinefist]

Great topic people.

Looks like we will have to think up new ways to approach the grounded foe's.
Wonder's if you run forward if you anticipate there back step, that may create a clear combo option?

Its interesting as because if someone thinks you have good timing you could use that to lock them down to not doing a back step, then they are forced to block, attack or guard cancel etc.

Characters with fast hyper hops may punish back steps too, after that characters with fast forward trajectory moves will place high in punishing them too.

[Reiki.Kito]

It'll be interesting to see how it's used. If people go into autopilot during their hop-ins, they're going to do something unsafe while whiffing.

[shinefist]

Reiki do you mean if they dont back step your hop will go over there head if they duck, is that what you mean?

If thats the case the opponent could just crouch sweep you or something.

hum it seems like a new layer of deph has been added with the back step. Curse you b,b lol.

Heck i'll just wait till they do b,b then use my kyo's ex orochinagi hehe.