Author Topic: Duo wiki building thread  (Read 8965 times)

AmedÝ310

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2013, 10:02:34 PM »
Added the following to the Notes section:

"Frame Traps and Links

(L)= Link

1. st. A, cl. C (L)

2. st. A, cr. C

3. st. A, cl. D

4. cr. A, cl. C (L)

5. cr. A, cr. C (L)

6. cr. A, cl. D (L)

7. st. B, st. A

8. st. B, cr. A

9. st. B, cl. C

10. st. B, cr. B

11. cr. B, cl. C "

Kane317

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2013, 09:18:18 PM »
Sir Octopus' two cents on Duo Lon's move set:

Here's Duo lon. Feel free to spell check, edit, or prove what I wrote on trining mode or whatever. Make sure all the info is correct and post at will.

s.A
Fair anti hop tool, slower than the crouching version but further range and meatier with slower recovery. Will whiff on crouching opponents (Please investigate if this is true for ALL characters) leaving you open to low hit punishes or low combo starters. s.A is the same animation and properties as the close A version.

s.B
Hits low, can only be canceled into a special move, command normal. Cannot be canceled into any other normal .More meaty than standing A

s.C
Same animation and properties with close or far version. Good guard of middle to low middle and high middle profile, does not trade with hits above Dou Lon's head or low hit detections. Standard combo starter as it has plenty of active frames allowing you to easily activate HD into the bypass slide.

s.D
Slower than standing C but covers all the way to Dou Lon's head, allowing you to use it as an anti-hop at times. This one, as opposed to standing C, drives you forward instead of only pushing back the opponent, so it's better when possible to start with it since it will guarantee all rekkas will connect (qcf.A/C)

d.A
Your main combo starter for BnB combos, fast, safe on hit or on block and easy to confirm one after the other. You can spam it every once in a while, just don't be under the impression that it cannot be challenged.

d.B
Slower than crouching A, longer range, more meaty and by definition, more active frames, which allows you to activate HD that much easier than crouching A

d.C
High vertical hit stretching about 3/4 of the screen. Has too many active frames, although the animation stays there a while, only the first couple of active frames can be canceled, much like you would see in Iori's close C, whereas you can only cancel the first active frames even though you still have active frames after that, same with Dou Lon. Slow recovery and no horizontal hit box added outside of what you can see. Good anti hop only when predicting a jump in, fair anti air, but has more of a hurt box than a hitbox. Don't overuse it, mostly punishable.

d.D
Long sweep, not too slow at startup but has some recovery time. Fair range.

j.A
Fast air jab, only covers minimum vulnerable area in his mid-section, low and high profiles exposed. Only use it as an air to air when you really have to as it doesn't do much damage and is not worth trading with.

j.B
A quick air to ground horizontal spike that serves as a good combo starter as the actually hit box is below Duo Lon's body. Fair air to air, but jumping C is preferable.

j.C
Great anti-air that covers Duo Lonís mid, mid-high and mid-low sections, still, it does not cover his high or low profile, so only use it air to air. Can be special canceled into f.A or f.B or their EX versions

j.D
Same overall angle as j.B but with a greater hit box all around, it can be used to cross up opponents but only in exact situations. This is his only move which cannot be special canceled in the air, unless you are in HD mode. Then and only then would it be wise to use j.D into f.B for greater confirmation time.

j.CD
Great air to air or air to ground tool, covers his mid and mid-low profiles, cannot be punished by Trip guard if done low enough. Fast and special cancelable move which allows guard break pressure and can be combined with f.A or f.B or their EX versions

f.A
Duo Lonís preferred mid-range poke, slow startup, and good range of about ľ of the screen. Will whiff on crouching opponents that do a low hit (d.B, d.D) and has slow recovery as well as a large hurt box. It is special cancellable but cannot activate HD from it.

EX version
Faster startup. Does 2 hits instead of 1. Second hit pulls them towards Duo Lon regardless of on ground or aerial opponent. If aerial, it will allow great cross up potential as Duo Lon recovers before the opponent hitís the ground, giving you the high/low mix-up, cross up or Kara canceling his cl.CD into reverse rekkas.

Aerial version
Faster startup and recovery. Only horizontal hit detection. Do not use it to anti air jumping forward, only on neutral or back jump. Good for combo extensions and hit confirming when doing a jump it with j.B

EX aerial version
As fast as the normal version and same amount of hits. The only real advantage over the normal air version is that it hits opponents out of air invincibility, such as Viceís EX whip or Hwa Jaiís EX Dragon kick.

f.B
Slow startup, slower recovery. Still fast enough to combo from a light and to link a
s.C or d.A from it. Does chip damage and hits standing or near grounded opponents. Hits walking characters but not if they dash, so you can actually be punished about more than half screen away very easily.
An important note: Recovery properties change when drive canceled into, it has slower recovery. In the corner, you can do f.B and link a cl.C afterwards, but, if you do rekka and Drive cancel into f.B you will not be able to link a normal hit. Any questions you can contact Sir Octopus on the forum via PM.

EX version
Faster, almost instant startup and faster recovery. Same hit detection but hits opponents a little further of the ground than its normal version. Cannot be dodged by running.

Aerial version
Decent startup, awesome range and angle. You can hit confirm your j.B into f.B for a ground combo that much easier. His whole leg acts as a hurt box as well as a hit box, has low priority so donít try to challenge normals with it.

Aerial EX version
Faster startup, same hurt box and hit box. Does longer guard stun and hit stun, allowing you to do it near hop startup and still be able to land and confirm with a ground normal.

qcf.A or C (P=punch)
His ďRekkaĒ. Much like you would see with EX Ioriís doing qcb.P x3 or EX Kyo with qcf.P. Duo Lon as the same property with qcf.P. Weíll cover this one at a time
-   First rekka
Fast, really fast. Covers Dou Lonís upper and mid body with a huge hit box. Not many characters can punish it without at least spending meter, and in most cases 2 meters. You can abuse it against certain characters freely. Drive cancelable.
-   Second rekka
Drive him forward which is not the best place you want to be in this case, less safe than the first one and likely to be punished. Has a time limit on which you can hit with this one after you anti-aired with the first rekka. Drive cancelable
-   Third rekka
Severely punishable. Hit box goes well above Duo Lonís head. If the second rekka misses the anti-aired opponent, this one will always hit. Special cancelable into his forward teleport without drive meter. Drive cancelable.

EX version
-   Fist rekka
Faster and longer range than the normal version. Does not hit a soft knockdown airborne opponent. Can be free canceled into any special move.
-   Second rekka
    Faster and longer range than the normal version. Longer hit stun. Does hit a soft knockdown airborne opponent. Can be free canceled into any special move.
-   Third rekka
Faster and longer range than the normal version. Does hit a soft knockdown airborne opponent. Can be free canceled into any special move.

qcf.b or D (K=kick)
-   B version
Vulnerable from startup to end. Your best follow up after the third rekka since most characters are unable to punish it without spending meter or 2 at in some cases. Can be punished meterles in this scenario by any character with a 1 frame command grab, Kingís D Tornado Kick and a couple more characters.
-   D version
On its own it can be done after a couple of hits in order to disorient the opponent, and it is a great mobility tool. After the third rekka, since it does take longer to come out than the B version, it can be used to throw off the timing if you know for sure that youíre getting punished or to escape some of the normal punished. Keep in mind you can be normal thrown out of it.

EX version
-   Invincible startup and mid frames, punishable recovery. Travels faster but shorter than the B version. Faster recovery. It can be used to escape from some of the punished that would beat the B teleport. Play with it to see what you can get away with.

qcb.K
-   B version
Same overall properties as the forward version. Slower. Also, you can cancel the teleport with f.b or the EX version at any point of the animation.
-   D version
Same overall properties as the forward version. Slower. Also, you can cancel the teleport with f.b or the EX version at any point of the animation.

EX version
-   Same overall properties as the forward version. Also, you can cancel the animation with f.A, f.B or their EX versions at any moment in the animation.

Kane317

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2013, 10:05:39 PM »
s.A
Fair anti hop tool, slower than the crouching version but further range and meatier with slower recovery. Will whiff on crouching opponents (Please investigate if this is true for ALL characters) leaving you open to low hit punishes or low combo starters. s.A is the same animation and properties as the close A version.

That I will need to check but I don't see why not...maybe the exception would be big characters such as Maxima, Goro, Raiden etc...

s.B
Hits low, can only be canceled into a special move, command normal. Cannot be canceled into any other normal .More meaty than standing A

Small nitpick, Duo Lon doesn't have any command moves.  The move list image for Duo Lon lists his f A and f B as command normal, when in fact, they are special moves.  Much like a tomato which shares characteristics of both a fruit and a vegetable, both have Ex versions which are trademarks of a special move yet allow you to free cancel into a special off of it.  Confusing.

s.D
Slower than standing C but covers all the way to Dou Lon's head, allowing you to use it as an anti-hop at times.

Is it slower?  The frame data from Keykakko says it's both 5F for startup.

j.CD
Great air to air or air to ground tool, covers his mid and mid-low profiles, cannot be punished by Trip guard if done low enough. Fast and special cancelable move which allows guard break pressure and can be combined with f.A or f.B or their EX versions

The term trip guard is constantly misused (this isn't to single you out Sir Octopus, everyone does this).  In a nutshell, Trip Guard is the ability to Guard the grounded opponent's trip.  It describes the jumper, not the character that is on the ground.  In KOF I think we just call it anti-air d.B, it's a lot clumsy than saying trip guard, but more accurate.  

f.A
Duo Lonís preferred mid-range poke, slow startup, and good range of about ľ of the screen. Will whiff on crouching opponents that do a low hit (d.B, d.D) and has slow recovery as well as a large hurt box. It is special cancellable but cannot activate HD from it.

Small nitpick again (sorry): I want to say the range is closer to 35% of the screen, it's pretty far.

f.A EX version
Faster startup. Does 2 hits instead of 1. Second hit pulls them towards Duo Lon regardless of on ground or aerial opponent. If aerial, it will allow great cross up potential as Duo Lon recovers before the opponent hitís the ground, giving you the high/low mix-up, cross up or Kara canceling his cl.CD into reverse rekkas.

I tested it on the aerial opponents after you typed this up, and it only pulls them closer if the tip of his hand hits them, if they land on anywhere else of Duo Lon's stretched hands, it only hits them once and does not pull them closer.

f.A Aerial version
Faster startup and recovery. Only horizontal hit detection. Do not use it to anti air jumping forward, only on neutral or back jump. Good for combo extensions and hit confirming when doing a jump it with j.B

It cannot be overstated how good of a zoning tools this is for him, it controls space that almost no one else can, certainly not as well as he can.

air.f A EX version
As fast as the normal version and same amount of hits. The only real advantage over the normal air version is that it hits opponents out of air invincibility, such as Viceís EX whip or Hwa Jaiís EX Dragon kick.

Otherwise known as "Anywhere juggle".  Problem with this Anywhere Juggle, no move can juggle AFTER it, rendering it somewhat useless (except using another EX air.f AC).  It's ok at best at setting up ambiguous crossups but most players can see it coming a mile away.

f.B EX version
Faster, almost instant startup and faster recovery. Same hit detection but hits opponents a little further of the ground than its normal version. Cannot be dodged by running.

It's true you can kinda use it as a ghetto anti air from afar.  If the opponent is close to you it will always knock them away from you, if they are mid to far away it will always knock them towards you.  In term of the hitbox, it seems like the hit detection was merely shifted upwards instead of extending upwards--case and point: the f.BD will completely whiff (!) Chin's d x2+P punch stance lol.

qcb K EX version
-   Same overall properties as the forward version. Also, you can cancel the animation with f.A, f.B or their EX versions at any moment in the animation.

WOW!  I did not KNOW you can do a f.A.  Learn something new everyday.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 02:07:07 AM by Kane317 »

Sir Octopus (Saiki)

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2013, 01:00:18 AM »
I'll get on it today, doing the graveyard shift, so I'll have it for you tomorrow afternoon or something like that. Thank you for reviewing the article.

FataCon

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2013, 12:36:34 AM »
s.A indeed does not whiff on Raiden, Maxima, Goro (tested).

Quote from: Kane317
Is it slower?  The frame data from Keykakko says it's both 5F for startup.

He probably means far s.D. While both close and far s.C are 5f startup, close and far s.D are 5f and 9f respectively (according to the Keykakko anyway).

That said, you should probably differentiate between close and far s.D, as they differ in utility. As you stated, close s.D is great in combos due to the lack of pushback compared to s.C. Far s.D is Duo Lon's longest ranged ground normal outside of his sweep, which makes it great for pokes, stuffing corner pressure jump-outs, and HD activations. Though, because it is not special/super cancellable AND -7f on block, it is fairly punishable.


Quote from: Sir Octopus
d.C
High vertical hit stretching about 3/4 of the screen. Has too many active frames, although the animation stays there a while, only the first couple of active frames can be canceled, much like you would see in Iori's close C

You probably mean "recovery frames" here. Moves have 3 stages: startup, active, recovery. Active only refers to the frames when a move can hit. Like you said, because the d.C has a 6f startup, it generally has to be done a bit preemptively instead of on reaction, unlike other characters with faster d.C's *coughShencough*

Quote from: Sir Octopus
Kara canceling his cl.CD into reverse rekkas

You should probably just refer to it as s.CD rather than cl.CD since there is no property difference between close and far s.CD; the crossup is merely due to proximity.

It's worth noting that both j.f+B (both normal and EX versions) hit overhead, which can be used as a pseudo instant overhead. If cancelled from a j.B, it acts as a sort of double overhead, though only on standing characters. Using this setup, on crouching characters, the normal version will not come out at all, and the EX version will spend the meter but the move will not actually come out.

Quote from: Sir Octopus
-   First rekka
Fast, really fast.

For reference, the startup is 7f, which means it's not adequate for punishing a lot of "generally safe" moves, unfortunately. You should probably denote frame data when you can (though it isn't perfect, it is helpful), as it gives a better understanding of move utility rather than just stating that something is "really fast" or "really slow".

Important to note that stopping after the first rekka leaves you at -8f, which is relatively punishable. The reason most people don't punish is due to reaction times and fear of a delayed rekka. Otherwise, it isn't safe or abusable on paper.

Lastly, one thing I'm curious about is your use of "high/low profile". Are you judging this based on just visual cues? Or have you extensively tested this? Without seeing actual hitboxes, approximated or official, it can be difficult to accurately gauge where an attack actually covers without making assumptions.

Overall, a good attempt at a writeup, just needs minor clarification of stuff and a bit of cleanup, then it's good to go.

Sir Octopus (Saiki)

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2013, 02:08:44 AM »

Quote from: Sir Octopus
d.C
High vertical hit stretching about 3/4 of the screen. Has too many active frames, although the animation stays there a while, only the first couple of active frames can be canceled, much like you would see in Iori's close C

You probably mean "recovery frames" here. Moves have 3 stages: startup, active, recovery. Active only refers to the frames when a move can hit. Like you said, because the d.C has a 6f startup, it generally has to be done a bit preemptively instead of on reaction, unlike other characters with faster d.C's *coughShencough*

Quote from: Sir Octopus
Kara canceling his cl.CD into reverse rekkas

You should probably just refer to it as s.CD rather than cl.CD since there is no property difference between close and far s.CD; the crossup is merely due to proximity.

It's worth noting that both j.f+B (both normal and EX versions) hit overhead, which can be used as a pseudo instant overhead. If cancelled from a j.B, it acts as a sort of double overhead, though only on standing characters. Using this setup, on crouching characters, the normal version will not come out at all, and the EX version will spend the meter but the move will not actually come out.

Quote from: Sir Octopus
-   First rekka
Fast, really fast.

For reference, the startup is 7f, which means it's not adequate for punishing a lot of "generally safe" moves, unfortunately. You should probably denote frame data when you can (though it isn't perfect, it is helpful), as it gives a better understanding of move utility rather than just stating that something is "really fast" or "really slow".

Important to note that stopping after the first rekka leaves you at -8f, which is relatively punishable. The reason most people don't punish is due to reaction times and fear of a delayed rekka. Otherwise, it isn't safe or abusable on paper.

Lastly, one thing I'm curious about is your use of "high/low profile". Are you judging this based on just visual cues? Or have you extensively tested this? Without seeing actual hitboxes, approximated or official, it can be difficult to accurately gauge where an attack actually covers without making assumptions.

Overall, a good attempt at a writeup, just needs minor clarification of stuff and a bit of cleanup, then it's good to go.

On d.C, I did really mean "active frames" because it does have a lot active frames, but only the first couple of frames can be cancelled, much like Iori's cl.C, or Kyo's cl.C, whereas the active frames are divided into [cancellable and non cancellable]. Like Dou lon, you cannot cancel in roughly the last half of the active frames.

On rekka, I do mean mostly nonpunishable at max block range, but, nevertheless, I will try it today against the whole roster and give you a better detailed information. Thank you for your input x]

Crimson_King15

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2013, 03:56:52 AM »
I have currently began to work on a duo lon indepth breakdown via a word document which will soon be followed by a video that will be a visual and vocal version of the guide. This is just starting and more in will be coming, but please look it over and add corrections or tell me what you think.

https://docs.google.com/document/m?id=1o2RjTOzoWGsfLRGQ9wZDJU1up13XiraZd_N63wDW5u0

Kane317

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2013, 12:13:24 AM »
EDITED: Duo Lon's s.D is actually 6F startup vs s.C's 5F (used to be both 5F).

desmond_kof

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2013, 12:18:07 AM »
EDITED: Duo Lon's s.D is actually 6F startup vs s.C's 5F (used to be both 5F).

This is still empty. ;)

http://dreamcancel.com/wiki/index.php/Duo_Lon_(XIII)#Normals

« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 12:32:06 AM by Kane317 »
"Do not place so much importance on winning. The fight itself has value."

Kane317

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"Do not place so much importance on winning. The fight itself has value."

Josh

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2013, 08:17:07 AM »
I just finished writing up on Duo Lon's normals. Feel free to look it over and see if it's thorough enough.

Crimson_King15

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2013, 08:51:24 PM »
I just finished writing up on Duo Lon's normals. Feel free to look it over and see if it's thorough enough.
Do not agree with that post about standing b at all. Stb is a great normal and is very important to duo Lon's game. St.b is great for tick throws, it his low, is cancelable, has little push back, has frame advantage, it shares start up animation of f+b so it has uses there as well, also it's whiff cancelable. The move has tons of uses.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 08:56:28 PM by Crimson_King15 »

Josh

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Re: Duo wiki building thread
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2013, 01:00:02 PM »
I just finished writing up on Duo Lon's normals. Feel free to look it over and see if it's thorough enough.
Do not agree with that post about standing b at all. Stb is a great normal and is very important to duo Lon's game. St.b is great for tick throws, it his low, is cancelable, has little push back, has frame advantage, it shares start up animation of f+b so it has uses there as well, also it's whiff cancelable. The move has tons of uses.

Ok that's good criticism. I don't really mess around with it since I find it to be kind of stubby, and don't like the fact that it isn't chainable. Never really looked at it in those ways. I was mostly comparing it to say, EX Kyo's standing B, which chains into itself and other normals, and works as a good start to a combo when hitting as the first attack of a block string.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 06:12:10 PM by Josh »