Tier lists and Character Discussion Thread

[Nagato1992]

No, he's definitely a top character. His footsies are amazingly good for the most part and when he's Drunk, forget about it. If he's got you in the corner and he's Drunk, good luck to ya'.

Not if you have air grab.  There are ways to stop Drunk Hwa especially in the corner with characters like Clark.
I just do(during blockstun)     +  If he does dragon tail, Clark will most likely grab it, if not, you will stay on the ground and go back into blocking and create a small alternate guard.  You can always guard cancel roll to safety as well.
However, I do think Hwa is top 8 character in the game.  

That knee into flip kick is essentially a rekka.

Yeah it is.

I have disagreements with the list.  I guess it is okay, but some people are underrated such as Clark, Ralf, Claw Iori(he's easily in the top bracket and is one of the best anchors in the game), and Maxima.


I have made two lists now, one is a more breakdown in general of who are the best on the game and the other is based on technicality and Damage.  
Tier list based on Faults/Weaknesses
The top characters imo is the 3 listed but in no particular order. Meaning Kyo does not necessarily loses to MK and Beni, or vice versa for all 3. They play all positions on the highest level and are the best in the game in my opinion.

The first row to the left are probably the best anchors in the game but have faults because they need meter. They can still be played on point or second but sooo much stronger if anchor. So they play anchor on the highest level along with the top 3.

The second row to the right is the best point characters in the game. They also play anchor really well but due to their damage restraints, I would always put them first or second, but primarily first especially K.'

The third row(along with takuma being the best of this area imo) are the characters that have TOD's or can blow you up if they get started. However, they can get zoned or safe jumped because of no real options besides game mechanics. Can play secondary and point at really good levels, but right behind the characters in second row (right).

Third row right(including Liz and Robert) are the gimmicky characters that can really force you to do stupid shit and punish you big time for it. Probably should have put Kim on this side, but he has faults due to zoners on this specific row. I say they are the best secondary characters because they build meter well for your anchor, and if you are good enough, can beat the opponents second and get their anchor to 50% if not 25% life before they go down. Even if you do get them there, they are good batteries for anchor because they're going to build meter regardless unless you make an HD mistake or something similar.

Fourth row left(including Chin) are the weaker(yet still good) characters in the game that play point more well than any other position. They are here because of the damage constraints, unsafe pressure, and as well as the "random neomax" options that can fuck you up(one of the reasons a character like Leona is good). Chin is an exception because he has stronger strings and gets better when he is drunk. He is the best of this bunch imo and probably a lot better than I have displayed him.

Duo Lon I think is the weakest character because of his unsafe strings, low damage output overall. He is still good with his instant overheads and his CD glitch, but I don't think he is as strong as everyone else. I was going to put Mai down here, but due to new game exploits and her stun combo, she shows herself to be very dangerous in the right hands. I still don't think she is in the Upper-Mid bracket yet.

TBH though, I think this game would probably need a matchup list instead of the ABC list. I want to make one but I am still unsure on some of the matchups in the game. However, I do know most of Claw Iori, Kim, Ex Iori, Beni, both Kyo's, K, Andy, Shen, Joe, and Hwa matchups. But thats not enough to make a matchup list lol. I would like some feedback as well if anyone has anything to share.

Tier list based on Technicality and Damage

[Hungry Color]

Very nice Nagato, I love how everyone is making tier lists with different criteria, it's very interesting.

[Running Wild]

Oh hey Nagato, didn't expect to see you here.

Here's my tier list

[bzerk]

Looks like we've come a long ways from the days of K' Raiden Andy dominating the top tier.

Seems like so long ago now....

[Running Wild]

Looks like we've come a long ways from the days of K' Raiden Betty Kula dominating the top tier.

Fixed for you.

[Matt Alder]

I have disagreements with the list.  I guess it is okay, but some people are underrated such as Clark, Ralf, Claw Iori(he's easily in the top bracket and is one of the best anchors in the game), and Maxima.

Claw Iori is very good, we had him in the 9th spot on S tier until only a few weeks ago, but really he lacks quite a lot. Compare him to Hwa Jai. Hwa has a better version of every single offensive tool that Claw has going for him, deals far more damage as well as having better defensive tools. Claw severely lacks defensive tools and zoning tools, and his grappling game is decent at best with a slow 9f grab that has horrible range, and an EX grab that's not even instant (still 5f startup), so it's somewhat easier to bait than most. While he's pretty good with pressure and can deal massive damage, he just suffers severely from a few bad matchups, namely every character on the S tier. He still has amazing normals and can deal absurd damage with HD, but he can be kept out fairly easily by any character with solid zoning tools/far reaching normals since the removal or severe nerfing of the invulnerability on all of his EX moves from the arcade version.

I think people that think of Hwa Jai as lacking in certain aspects don't actually know Hwa Jai very well. He literally lacks nothing. Zoning? If you throw a fireball at him, he can shoryu through it for an 800+ damage combo anywhere. Qcb+B/D pressure is NOT something that Hwa should be doing. He's actually got frame advantage after d/f+B slide, meaning he has no need to ever use his qcb+B/D outside of combos. He's got a 0f 2F (_{Fixed. -Kane317}) grab, an invulnerable halfscreen grab, an invulnerable halfscreen attack that gives Hwa advantage on block, and he can win games entirely relying on his borderline broken A/B poke game (considering any normal he touches you with could lead into a literal death combo without even using HD). Basically whichever range you're fighting in, Hwa has an answer to every situation. He doesn't have a single bad matchup.

[Blake/White]

The second row to the right is the best point characters in the game. They also play anchor really well but due to their damage restraints, I would always put them first or second, but primarily first especially K.'

To be honest, I don't think K' is best on point in this game, at least not anymore. You really do need to spend meter with him to get the max benefit of his tools. It may have been a different story in arcade where Trigger was much safer and you got stronger midscreen combos, but now he seems almost reliant on meter. On the other hand, he's not exactly the best anchor either, which makes me feel that second is the best place for him. First works great, but he's extremely versatile as the middle character.

[Running Wild]

How to beat Hwa -

Block low.

/gg

[LouisCipher]

Or use Yomi. Hwa is beatable but yeah, it can be a bitch. As for me because I main him I see no problems with his placement   .

[giga_d]

Not if you have air grab.  There are ways to stop Drunk Hwa especially in the corner with characters like Clark. . .

Duo Lon I think is the weakest character because of his unsafe strings, low damage output overall. He is still good with his instant overheads and his CD glitch, but I don't think he is as strong as everyone else.

Definitely agree. Hwa is good but doesn't belong up there with kyo and karate. Lon maybe mid tier.

[bopper]

How to beat Hwa -

Block low.

/gg

And get grabbed for 340 damage? I think people are underestimating him quite a bit. There is more to Hwa Jai then spamming qcb+D

[t3h mAsTarOth...!]

If people arent convinced after evo... Just look at the 5 most used characters... Karate, Hwa, Kim, Ex Iori, Shen...

[bopper]

Most of the Kim players where Korean tho, and they tend to be a bit biased towards Korean characters. I mean every single Korean TEKKEN player has a pocket Hwoarang

[Nagato1992]

I have disagreements with the list.  I guess it is okay, but some people are underrated such as Clark, Ralf, Claw Iori(he's easily in the top bracket and is one of the best anchors in the game), and Maxima.

Claw Iori is very good, we had him in the 9th spot on S tier until only a few weeks ago, but really he lacks quite a lot. Compare him to Hwa Jai. Hwa has a better version of every single offensive tool that Claw has going for him, deals far more damage as well as having better defensive tools. Claw severely lacks defensive tools and zoning tools, and his grappling game is decent at best with a slow 9f grab that has horrible range, and an EX grab that's not even instant (still 5f startup), so it's somewhat easier to bait than most. While he's pretty good with pressure and can deal massive damage, he just suffers severely from a few bad matchups, namely every character on the S tier. He still has amazing normals and can deal absurd damage with HD, but he can be kept out fairly easily by any character with solid zoning tools/far reaching normals since the removal or severe nerfing of the invulnerability on all of his EX moves from the arcade version.

I think people that think of Hwa Jai as lacking in certain aspects don't actually know Hwa Jai very well. He literally lacks nothing. Zoning? If you throw a fireball at him, he can shoryu through it for an 800+ damage combo anywhere. Qcb+B/D pressure is NOT something that Hwa should be doing. He's actually got frame advantage after d/f+B slide, meaning he has no need to ever use his qcb+B/D outside of combos. He's got a 0f 2F (_{Fixed. -Kane317}) grab, an invulnerable halfscreen grab, an invulnerable halfscreen attack that gives Hwa advantage on block, and he can win games entirely relying on his borderline broken A/B poke game (considering any normal he touches you with could lead into a literal death combo without even using HD). Basically whichever range you're fighting in, Hwa has an answer to every situation. He doesn't have a single bad matchup.

Hwa has NO bad matchup? LOL, he has tons of bad ones.  Without meter Hwa can easily get mauled since he has no really good wakup game.   Dragon Kick can get safejumped by the entire cast and since Dragon Backbreaker startup is 1 frame and the   version has tons of startup(which can be jumped).  This is how I see Hwa.

Hwa(not drunk):
- Can get rushed down relatively easy.
- Unsafe strings unless slide hits at the tip(which is the only time it is + frame advantage)
- Has no real option to get over fireballs unless he spends meter to get drunk or try and backbreaker.  Backbreaker is not full screen so he can get gimmicked.

Hwa(When drunk):
- RUSH HIM DOWN. Even when he's drunk, he still has 2 options outside of game given stuff.  He either Backbreaker or Dragonkick.  You can take the dragonkick and force him to burn a lot of meter to convert from a A DK unless in the corner.
- If he gets any offense going just fuck everything and alternate guard, spend the meter to get out of Dodge City.

I think Hwa's bad matchups are:
Ash( I have tested this with Joe and Hwa.  They CANNOT slide under Ash's fireball.)
Kim
Kyo
Mr. K
Takuma
Andy
Clark
King(can run away and Hwa cant do really anything to stop her unless he is drunk.  Even then, King has probably the best keepaway in the game along with Ash if she's played at the highest level)
Benimaru
Those are all I know off the top of my head.  His good matchups are(either 5/5 or 6/4 depending on meter and stuff):

Both Iori's(Blasphemy! But it's true, this is either 5/5 or 6/4.  Claw Iori can win this fairly easy but still may be a 5/5, which I may explain later.)
Saiki(fireball < ELECTRIC SLIDE)
EX Kyo
Joe
Athena
Hwa has good/bad matchups and he can easily turn them around when he gets drunk, but if you don't let him get drunk and pressure him, your winning chances is as good as Hwa's.  Also, I think if Hwa had no weaknesses, he would be on every team in finals.  Look at vanilla Saggot, he had no weaknesses and almost everyone ran with that character.
As for Claw, I think he is still contender for for top 8 in the game because of his special moves.  They are not used enough imo.  214 has lower body invincibility almost all the way through the move(which means slide from Hwa < this move).  214 does not have much lower body invincibility, but the second hit has very high priority and can stop hop attempts.  I tested it against Ralf's hyperhop forward   as well at Clark/King/Kyo/Hwa/Joe.  It either win's or trades with their air moves.  Claw Iori has really amazing especially at Anchor.  He builds meter well, and EX Shiki Yaotome(maiden masher) is one of the best ex supers in the game.  With his options after this super or just the normal one, you can really create a heavy offense easily locking the opponent down.  As for keeping him out, it is easy when he does not have meter.  This is why I say at anchor he is strongest because he does not have to worry about obtaining meter since it is given to him.  I can't tell you how many reverse OCV's I have done with Claw Iori alone.  Not to mention I think he may be a counter pick to Shen in some way.

Most of the Kim players where Korean tho, and they tend to be a bit biased towards Korean characters. I mean every single Korean TEKKEN player has a pocket Hwoarang

I laughed too hard at this.   Sad thing is that it is true.

If people arent convinced after evo... Just look at the 5 most used characters... Karate, Hwa, Kim, Ex Iori, Shen...

EX Iori is tradition to be played a lot.  EVERYONE is familiar with him.

The second row to the right is the best point characters in the game. They also play anchor really well but due to their damage restraints, I would always put them first or second, but primarily first especially K.'

To be honest, I don't think K' is best on point in this game, at least not anymore. You really do need to spend meter with him to get the max benefit of his tools. It may have been a different story in arcade where Trigger was much safer and you got stronger midscreen combos, but now he seems almost reliant on meter. On the other hand, he's not exactly the best anchor either, which makes me feel that second is the best place for him. First works great, but he's extremely versatile as the middle character.

K' is not the best point on the game but he is one of the best.  He goes at 1st or 2nd really well and he still blows up a good bit of the cast. 

[t3h mAsTarOth...!]

The post on hwa is not bad by nagato... But you missed out all his normals... He has one of the best s.D or s.A or s.C+D or j.C+D... And slide... Also you can't just block against a good Hwa or he'll tick throw you (alternate guard won't work)... All the characters you mentioned that can zone him, he can just hyper hop their FBs... Also if you eat any of his DPs while drun, you will loose at least 500+ anywhere on screen with 1 drive...